Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Vishnee Sauntoo

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Cutting Through with Vishnee Sauntoo · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

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  In Season 3 of Cutting Through, we're asking the question, how
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  do you cut through with humanity in the age of AI?
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  Because the first time in history, machines are imitating
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  us. They're writing like us,
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  speaking like us, creating like us.
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  And the question suddenly everywhere is what does it mean
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  to be human when the machines can do the same things we do?
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  In this series, we're exploring that question from different
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  angles, not with the usual voices, and not with the same
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  predictable panel of experts, but with people who see the
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  world differently. Season 3 is supported by
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  antiquota.com, a platform built to challenge the sameness of
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  expertise by helping media, podcasts and events discover new
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  voices and new perspectives. Because if we're going to talk
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  about the future, we probably need a broader set of people
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  shaping the conversation. This is cutting Through.
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  Welcome to cutting through with me, Natasha Ploughman.
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  Today I'm really excited to be talking to Vishni Sauntu.
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  Vishni is a comms expert who has spent her career particularly
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  within the third sector and in charities and development
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  economics. So it has a really unique
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  insight in how AI and particularly cutting through
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  with humanity in the age of AI, will give us a perspective of
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  how we ensure that the benefits also transfer to everyone across
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  the globe. Vishni, welcome to Cutting
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  Through. Thank you.
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  Before we get stuck into the big issues, give us a little bit of
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  a bio of who you are and what makes you, you.
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  Thanks Natasha. So I've been in communications
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  for about 25 years now, mainly focused on the not for profit
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  sector and working for big charities like Save the
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  Children, smaller charities, Age International, but really
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  focused on helping people and that's something that I've
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  always wanted to do. And then more recently working
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  for climate change organisations because everything is
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  interlinked. So that was really interesting.
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  And then for the last year I've been consulting now with the non
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  profit sector and trying to bring that expertise to smaller
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  organisations. Which is a great experience and
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  I'm sure you've seen a lot change over the last 20 years
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  about how these organisations are funded, but also how they
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  operate. But if we kind of just put it
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  back to to to where we are now and we talk about kind of the
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  role of AI and the role of development and charities.
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  What does it mean to you when we say that kind of cutting through
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  with humanity in the age of AI? What does it mean to you
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  personally and professionally? So for me this is all about
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  authenticity. So, you know, really being able
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  to balance the huge tech advantage of AI and what that
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  could bring to charities and not for profits.
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  But also how do you make sure that your voice is still there,
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  that the people that you're talking to, your funders, your,
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  you know, Joe blog on the street who's going to give you money
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  trust you as well? Because ultimately we've heard
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  so much stuff about AI now and quite negative things in some
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  ways. You so you as a person who's
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  donating, like, how do I know this is real?
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  How do I know that actually going out to do the work that
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  they've promised to do. So it's about being truthful and
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  honest about that as well as well as uses the tech as as much
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  as we can use it. I think that whole point around
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  kind of truthfulness and transparency and honesty is, is
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  a really human qualities that we talk about as being that
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  differentiates herself from the AI tools and the information
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  we're getting. But at the same side of the
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  coin, it's huge amounts of misinformation, disinformation.
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  You just don't know what to trust.
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  It's frustrating when you think around you could always trust a
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  photo or a video because but now you can't.
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  They're the things you can probably least trust.
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  So what do you think kind of the charities in the third sector
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  need to be doing a lot more of to ensure that they maintain or
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  build that trust they have with potential collaborators and
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  donors? So firstly, they need to get on
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  top of the technology. You know, we need to understand
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  what is happening out there. There are some charities who do
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  that. Some of the bigger charities
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  have embraced AI and used it for workflow and all sorts of
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  things. Other charities have really put
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  their head in the sand to be honest.
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  But we need policies. We need to be able to have
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  really robust policies about how an organisation is going to
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  work, what they will use AI for, what they won't use AI for.
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  You know, as you said, yeah, photography, you know, we need
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  to be very clear how our photos are procured, you know, where
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  again, the authenticity. How do we make sure that we can
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  prove that those photos are real photos as well?
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  Because maybe that's something we need to stop putting on all
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  our photos now. You know, we put captures, but
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  maybe we need to be more specific about that.
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  Sometimes we shy away from naming people, but maybe we can
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  name locations or areas or you know, at least put the
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  photographer in the Photo Credit, you know, which we
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  should have been doing anyways. Best practise.
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  But there are things that we can do as an organisation to kind of
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  make sure that we are saying this is real, this is what we
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  stand for, this is what we do. And it is consistency as well.
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  I think, you know, if you start using AI in a like a really
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  crazy way, of course people are going to doubt you.
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  But as as an organisation, if you're steadfast and you're
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  still doing what you've always done and you've proven the data,
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  the stories around it, you know, you'll go a long way.
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  But I think policy is a big thing for me.
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  A lot of charities haven't done that yet.
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  Policy side of things and who needs to develop those policies,
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  both as an organisation but also the pressure we need to be put
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  on governments and the platforms themselves, which seem to be the
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  Wild West at the moment around who governs and how they're
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  governed and where they're governed.
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  The general public has almost been driven by outrage, been
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  driven by shock value, but also immune to it and not trusting
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  it. And, you know, that's a really
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  difficult place to navigate. And charities have always been
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  very, very good at gathering, garnering emotion in people.
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  And do you think that's become limited because it just, it's
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  constant like this constant stream of stuff being sent at
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  you that is trying to evoke some kind of feeling and which is
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  charities were always were good at in the past?
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  Yeah, you're right. I mean, absolutely, you know,
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  that that world of misinformation and
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  disinformation now is making people doubt what they've been
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  told and and what the truth is. But I think charities have to
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  persevere. You know, they are very good at
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  emotional connection. They are very good at being able
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  to say, you know, these are the people that we're working with.
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  These are the people we're supporting.
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  Here's a video. Here's, you know, photography.
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  Here's the story behind all of that.
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  And we have to keep doing that, you know, and that you will be
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  able to tell what is authentic and not.
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  I know AI is really good now, but it won't be able to have
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  that human connection that we can bring to it.
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  So it's about being able to write in the same way, being
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  able to tell that story, show that story to people.
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  You know, there's so many ways now, and we shouldn't always
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  think that social media is the only way we're going to get
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  through to people. You know, there are other comms
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  channels. You know, we still use PR quite
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  a lot. We have our websites, you know,
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  we have face to face. You know, we have community
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  intervention. You know, there's nothing better
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  than meeting people on the street.
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  I've done a lot of that in my time and you get so much out of
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  it as well. So obviously when we're working
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  internationally we can't always do that.
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  But certainly, you know, community, face to face events,
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  telling people who you are is such a good way of doing things.
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  So don't just always go digital. I would say it's, you know, look
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  at all the different ways that you can reach people and word of
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  mouth is a big deal still, you know, I would trust the charity
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  if someone told me about them. So, you know, we want to still
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  create conversation and yeah, we can use those platforms to do
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  that. I think it's a really important
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  part of the, the communications mix.
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  And you know, we've skewed in a lot of ways because of cost to
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  digital channels and the, the view that the vanity metrics are
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  the things that will get a scale.
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  But what I'm hearing from you, which I think is important is
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  that it's, it's, it's quality, it's connection, it's trust,
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  it's all of those really human qualities that are becoming so
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  much more important, but can also be time consuming.
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  It can require a lot more intervention.
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  So either volunteer time and volunteer space.
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  And so do you think, do you think there's going to be a, a,
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  a shift towards more personal interaction with people to be
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  able to tell a story rather than these blanket approaches that
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  we're getting, which means we can have a bit more nuance in
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  the conversations that we have? I.
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  Think there certainly has to be. I think I know at the moment
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  charities have suffered a lot and the quickest thing they do
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  is cold stuff, you know? But what you'll find is you will
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  lack that quality that you need. I've heard of charities like
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  literally taking away, you know, most of their comms team and
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  have one person left, that one person can't do everything.
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  And and as you say, volunteers will start getting into the mix.
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  You know, other people get starting into the mix.
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  But ultimately, you know, we have to be firm about who we are
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  as charities with what we stand for, what we do, and be able to
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  use that approach of people. And often, you know, you might
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  need to use your trustees more or you might need to use, you
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  know, other volunteers more. But it is something where, you
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  know, the quality is definitely going to be better than
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  quantity, even though we don't think that at the moment.
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  You know, it's more about pushing stuff out, but it isn't
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  really. No.
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  And I wonder like you've worked for some of the big, the big
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  name charities, the ones that people know of and therefore
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  generally have a lot more funding either from governments
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  or organisations or just able to get more money from the general
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  public. But what about those like those
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  really smaller, more niche organisations, the ones that you
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  know, that don't have the access to funding, but kind of focus on
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  either a specific issue or a specific local area, you know,
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  do you think that they're more likely to go down the generic
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  use of kind of various digital tools?
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  You could, it could be both, you know, you could have a more
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  general approach that helps you cut through I guess.
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  But actually this is about audience.
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  So regardless of the size of your organisation, I'm currently
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  working with a very small charity at the moment, you know,
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  who don't have a comms team and they all pitch in and all what I
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  need to do with them is help them focus on their audience.
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  So their audience is very niche, you know, and that's OK because
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  that's where they're going to get the donations through, that
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  they're going to get the money. They don't need to be viral in
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  any shape or form to do the work that they're doing.
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  You know, they just need to be able to have the volunteers and
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  the money coming through in order to go and do that work.
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  So for me it's about really understanding, you know, yet
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  you're right, the big chances can go all over, you know, they
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  could do UK wide or worldwide or whatever.
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  But if your your work is focused, say on human rights,
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  you know, there's a very niche bunch of people that you need to
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  get to. So it's understanding that team
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  of people really. So define that audience is the
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  best thing. It's the foundations of why we
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  do communications and, and I find a lot of that blurring
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  between, you know, the use of AI tools.
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  There's so much chatter about different AI tools and yet we
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  haven't done enough of those foundations of audience centric
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  strategic development of the communications we're doing.
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  So the outcomes are really specific.
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  They're they're ladder to that business strategy or that that
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  organisational strategy that you're trying to aim for.
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  And it just feels like there's just so much chatter about
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  tools, but without the kind of grounding.
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  And I wonder if, I mean, a lot of businesses could probably
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  learn from the organisations like charities who are who, who,
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  when they do it well, really understand the audiences they're
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  serving. And they really understand the
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  outcome that they need to deliver on, be it the the, the
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  services they provide or the fundraising that they're able to
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  do. So do you think there is lessons
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  that you're saying that charities do really well that
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  businesses just? Don't.
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  Yeah, absolutely. I think again, as we've
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  mentioned, it's really defining that audience, being very
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  specific. You know, sometimes reaching 100
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  people is better than reaching 1000 people because there's 100
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  people that are going to help you or are really going to help
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  you take your business or your organisation further out than
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  you could ever imagine. I think there's also the
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  messaging around that. I've seen a lot of kind of quite
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  weak narrative. I think some businesses are
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  quite cautious. They're sort of like, they won't
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  go to one side or the other, they're in the middle.
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  And it's like actually, I trust an organisation who's really
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  firm about what they do. You know, I mean, to give you an
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  example, Lush recently obviously came out about Gaza.
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  They decided to close all their shops for a day in stand and
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  you're like, wow, that's a business.
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  But they really stood up for what they felt.
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  You know, not that everybody has to do that and go for political
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  or, you know, conflicts or whatever, but it's just standing
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  up for what you believe in I think is really important.
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  And as a business, you're not there just to sell stuff.
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  You know, you there is a there's a vision behind it.
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  Every organisation has a vision and we have to make sure that
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  that vision stays as it is. And it's not just about money
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  almost, you know, and people, people are savvy now.
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  You know, we choose where we buy things.
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  We don't just go for low cost. A lot of people, you know, you
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  hear now about flights, people aren't just going for the
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  cheapest flights anymore, they're going for quality and
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  service as well now and they're prepared to pay more to get that
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  service. So it's just thinking about,
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  again, your audience and what is what is going to make your
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  audience come over to you and, and really work on that.
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  And there's a lot of lack, I think, of understanding of that,
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  yeah. And we're seeing a lot about
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  particularly around climate where businesses have, there's
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  some consideration the business have have stepped away from
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  climate policies. But I mean, I'll probably argue
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  what they've stepped away from is the performative display of
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  climate policies or the performative protestations
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  around actions in society and actually focusing on what the
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  business does. And, you know, charities don't
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  have that luxury, I suppose, to do that.
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  But then also there is, do you think there's an increasing
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  clarity for the third sector to only focus on the area that is
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  actually within their their purview?
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  I suppose. And I'm, I'm gonna kind of, you
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  know, and I, I haven't been following it closely, but I'm
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  sure you have a lot of the issues around Oxfam.
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  And it'd be great to get your perspective if you have one
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  around, you know, because there's been a lot of noise
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  about it, but no one really knows what went on.
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  And yet everyone seems to have an opinion about what went on in
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  Oxfam and the views that they had.
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  And you think a lot of charities are going to get caught up in
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  this, this debate that, you know, is not necessarily of
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  their making or their desire to, to, to have a, a perspective on
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  issues that maybe they shouldn't have one on.
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  Yeah. I mean, look, charities get
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  clobbered all the time. They're probably the most
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  vulnerable group of businesses, as it were, you know, who will
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  always get blamed for things. And, you know, unfortunately for
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  Oxfam, they seem to be in the media a lot, you know, and
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  that's a really difficult position to be in.
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  And there are probably other charities who could have been in
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  the same position and and have managed to not be that face, you
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  know. So it is really difficult.
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  But I think for charities, we need to stick with our mission
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  and our vision. You know, there's the reason why
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  we're here. There's a reason why we're doing
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  the job that we do. Ultimately, we should be working
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  as a charity to either, yeah, save people's lives so that we
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  don't exist anymore. I used to work for no smoking
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  day and we said we'll carry on into the last smoker gives up
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  smoking, you know, kind of thing because that is what we do.
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  You know, that's our job. You know, we're also not here to
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  create policy, but we can help influence it as well.
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  So I guess it's, it's treading that fine line, isn't it, around
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  what we can advocate for, what we'll do in terms of services
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  that we provide. And then just trying to not go
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  too far around that because you will get clobbered.
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  You know, you're the first person that that will happen to.
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  But I'd also say just one more thing about charities is they do
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  have to think about their staff and, you know, governance as
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  well. Obviously it's heavily
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  regulated. I'm a trustee for charity comms,
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  so I know you know the position that we're in and the
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  responsibility we take around that.
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  And I'm always thinking about the staff and thinking about the
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  issues that they might have. So if we don't have a happy
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  staff, you know, staff who want to work, our charity won't
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  function. So wherever you are as a
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  charity, you know, whatever the, you know, issues are and you
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  know, we've heard about so many things.
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  I'm not going to get into the weeds of that because I don't
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  actually know what happens. But you know, when we're
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  thinking about bullying, we're talking about racism.
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  There's so many issues that are going on.
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  You know, there is a reality check here about our behaviours,
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  you know, so we need to think about that as well.
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  Yeah. And it is a perception.
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  I mean, I started my career working in, in charities and I
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  found it, it was this perception that you perception that you had
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  to be perfect on all things. And it's still human.
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  And I think when we bring it back to kind of the age, like
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  humanity in the age of AI, there is still a messiness and there's
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  still a layered perception around humans interacting with
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  each other that needs to be understood.
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  And I think some of the worries I have kind of with AI is that
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  we're losing that we're losing, you know, the, the mistakes that
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  people make or the ability to make mistakes.
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  We're losing the real human learning that you get from kind
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  of things going wrong because everything's so polished and
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  there's a desire for everything to be so polished.
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  And it kind of, and there's a lot of people talk around, oh,
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  to prove you're human, you need to kind of be less than perfect,
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  which I think is also not a great aspiration to kind of
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  strive towards. But from a, a values
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  perspective, I wonder how we can can, you know, we've talked
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  about audiences, we've talked about strategy, we've talked
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  about what organisations can do better of.
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  But you know, how can they really elevate their comms
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  through technology or tools that can make a much more impactful
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  as well? The technology side is about
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  getting on top of it, I think is really understanding it.
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  I think at the moment we're all sort of experimenting, aren't
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  we? I don't know how far along you
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  are, you know, Natasha, with kind of experiments that I'm
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  sort of doing all the kind of check GPTS and Gemini trying to
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  see how those things work for me as a consultant, you know, in my
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  workflow. And you know, when you're
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  working on your own, you do need support and help as well.
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  So those tools have helped me, but at the same time, I need to
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  make sure the quality is there. So that's my responsibility to
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  make sure it's showing what I would write anyway and what I
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  would say. So I guess there's a lot of that
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  getting on top of the technology.
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  What is out there for us? What is it that we can, it can
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  help us plus with like the onslaught of emails, you know,
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  can we get a better quality of that?
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  Can we get better analytics around that as well?
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  You know, because until we know that what we're doing is
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  working, how can we do more? How can we stick more stuff up
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  on social if we don't know the analytics and the journey, You
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  know, we always talk about a supporter journey, you know,
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  where are we taking people? You know, we're taking them to
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  our website, Where do they go from there?
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  So there's so much we can do using that technology and we
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  should be embracing that. And then on the other side of
• 21:16
  things, it's about making sure we understand that we do need
• 21:20
  people to do the work. You know, we can't just cut down
• 21:23
  on people Willy nilly. It is about, OK, I understand
• 21:27
  that, you know, charities that are, you know, a crucial sort of
• 21:30
  budget time at the moment, they are everyone's making cuts.
• 21:33
  Let's be honest, but let's do that in a way that we understand
• 21:36
  why we're doing it and what that means to that charity, you know,
• 21:40
  and the impact it's going to have.
• 21:41
  So you can't member of staff. What does that mean for
• 21:44
  everybody else you know, And the workload?
• 21:47
  And it just feels like we're back full circle to, yes, having
• 21:51
  an intentional strategy, being really clear what the outcome is
• 21:54
  of the work that you're trying to do.
• 21:56
  And it's, and I think it's really heartening to remind
• 21:59
  people that to cut through with humanity is to have those
• 22:03
  building blocks and foundations within your toolbox of how to
• 22:08
  make the decisions around what you say, what you don't say, and
• 22:11
  how you you interact with that audience and then make choices
• 22:15
  around what is the best format to do that with.
• 22:19
  And I think for me, so much of this conversation has been
• 22:23
  around, you know, it comes back to, you know, cutting through
• 22:26
  with humanity. And that means making choices,
• 22:28
  making decisions and making specific actions based on what
• 22:31
  that human audience needs to hear, not just more noise that
• 22:36
  the that they need to cut through to figure out what's
• 22:40
  important to them. Exactly.
• 22:43
  Sorry, I was just going to say that.
• 22:44
  I think also it would help us to prioritise as well.
• 22:48
  I often hear about we're trying to do too much and you know like
• 22:52
  you said, the business focus, what is the priority for the
• 22:55
  business? There's all these lovely nice to
• 22:57
  have as well we want to do, but actually is that appropriate for
• 23:01
  the business or not? Because you know, that will help
• 23:04
  us move along. Yeah.
• 23:05
  Or is it just keeping up with what everyone else is doing and
• 23:08
  rather than actually focusing on what is it that's gonna actually
• 23:13
  get you where you need to get to?
• 23:14
  But, you know, be it more money or, you know, more money for
• 23:19
  everyone ultimately is what makes things go around.
• 23:21
  But where does that money go? And how does it, where does it
• 23:23
  come from more effectively? Yeah.
• 23:26
  And so, and are you saying from a workplace perspective within
• 23:30
  the organisations that you support that people are, you
• 23:34
  know, burying their head in the sand about where technology is
• 23:37
  going? Or do you or I suppose is a real
• 23:39
  mix or, or where people are really grasping at use of
• 23:43
  technology because they feel that's going to be an easier way
• 23:45
  to progress? It's definitely a mix.
• 23:48
  I definitely think some of the bigger organisations obviously
• 23:50
  you could say have had maybe the resources to understand things
• 23:55
  better have got on top of it. You know, other organisations
• 24:00
  have buried their head in the sand.
• 24:01
  You know, people are fearing AI and fearing what you could do
• 24:05
  and you're worried about jobs, you know, in the current
• 24:08
  climate. But we've done a lot at charity
• 24:11
  comms to try and get people to, to understand how AI can help
• 24:14
  our comms, which has been really interesting.
• 24:17
  People have been really grateful for that.
• 24:18
  So I think there needs to be more learning.
• 24:20
  So we need to, you know, as individuals as well as
• 24:23
  individual communicators is to go out and figure out what is
• 24:27
  it, what's it telling us? You know, I need to find out.
• 24:29
  So I would say on everybody, we need all need to do some
• 24:32
  learning a bit of testing as well on how it can help us and
• 24:37
  what the advantages are. And like I said earlier, the
• 24:39
  policy side of it as well. So thinking about things like
• 24:42
  note takers, which you and I were talking about earlier and
• 24:46
  we love them, you know, because as as loan workers, we need
• 24:50
  somebody to take notes for us and remind us of actions.
• 24:54
  But I know so many charities that won't let it into their
• 24:56
  space because they've had one bad experience with it.
• 25:00
  It's like, well, if you control it properly, you put your
• 25:03
  settings correctly, it's not going to go anywhere, you know?
• 25:07
  And so it's about understanding and, you know, embracing it, but
• 25:11
  understanding why you should embrace it as well.
• 25:14
  And I mean, and then it comes back to trust.
• 25:16
  And I think that's a really important point to kind of end
• 25:19
  our conversation on is that, you know, organisations need to kind
• 25:23
  of look at the tools that they have available to them with
• 25:25
  intention. But you know, of course there's
• 25:27
  a lot of chatter around, you know, how trusting that, how
• 25:30
  trustworthy they are. But it doesn't mean it's not an
• 25:33
  either or it's an being adapting to the future and using what's
• 25:39
  available to you, but with an intention.
• 25:42
  So if you could have one last word for kind of how you would
• 25:46
  see the the the charity and voluntary sector being able to
• 25:49
  cut through with humanity in the age of AI, what would you think
• 25:53
  that would be a lesson for them to take?
• 25:54
  Forward, I think it's continuing to be your authentic self, you
• 25:59
  know, being able to still do the work that you do, talk about the
• 26:02
  work that you do. Don't feel like you need to do
• 26:06
  what everyone else is doing. I think that's the thing.
• 26:08
  We watch everyone else, but you have to do what's right for you
• 26:11
  and your audience. I think that's the key thing for
• 26:14
  me and figure out what it is AI is.
• 26:17
  We need to understand it. I think for me, that's the
• 26:20
  lesson for me. What is it, what is it doing,
• 26:22
  how can it help me and what should I avoid?
• 26:25
  Absolutely, that's a great, great lessons for everyone,
• 26:28
  regardless of your charity sector or business.
• 26:30
  But you know, and also there are so many different tools
• 26:33
  available to you, but the grounding of your purpose, the
• 26:37
  trust you need in your audiences and to move forward will always
• 26:41
  be foundations. It's just what tools you use to
• 26:44
  be able to drive that forward. Great to have you on cutting
• 26:48
  through Vishni. Thank you for the touch.
• 26:51
  Really good to kind of go back into understanding the the role
• 26:54
  that the the charity and the voluntary sector play in society
• 26:57
  and increasingly will do and continue to.
• 27:01
  So I'm sure they will adapt as everyone else is having to in
• 27:04
  this age of disruption that we seem to be in.
• 27:06
  So thank you for being on Cutting Through.
• 27:08
  Thank you so much. You've been listening to Cutting
• 27:15
  Through. If this episode made you think,
• 27:17
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• 27:20
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• 27:23
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• 27:29
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• 27:32
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• 27:34
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