Latest / f/22 - Photographer Interviews by VSCO / S2.E7 – Jeremy Cowart on Purposeful Photography, Embracing Risk, and Using AI Without Losing the Art
Transcript
- VSCO Team: I got a D in photography. Yeah, I really did. I really did. My first gig was the big gig was for prison break. The TV show, right? Yeah. And so there's 10 sets that we have to light. I had never used a light before. Yeah. I'll be like, yeah, just make that set kind of vibey and moody. I was like, well, and then I would literally watch them set up the gear to learn to learn how to light. I've always loved crazy risk crazy. Crazy adventure and crazy like I love the possibility of failure. I'm drawn to it. Well, welcome back to F twenty two. We are here in Franklin, Tennessee, in the studio of Jeremy Cowart, which I am super honored to be here to meet you. Thank you so much, Jeremy, for being on the show and welcome. Yeah, of course. Honor to be here with y'all. Long time user and fan of Visco. Well. That's an honor as well. And same to you. A long time. Since the beginning. Wow. Wow. Amazing. We'll we'll get into it a bit. Yeah. I've been a fan of your work for so long. Been such an inspiration for like two decades, I think. Yeah. So yeah, this is this is great. So Jeremy doesn't really need any introductions, but if this is your first time meeting him, he is an amazing photographer. Some really unique processes and techniques that we're gonna talk about a little. He also has such a really good heart. He's doing so many things that You would file under like humanitarian or social impact efforts. Those are other things we're going to address. He's just a creative genius that also has just a huge heart for people. We've been wanting to have this conversation for some time. So we're glad that we can come in here from ⁓ Franklin, Tennessee. So yeah. Just to kind of kick it off. I mean, I don't even know how we sum up your career so far, but like help for people that are maybe don't know you or younger or whatever. Help ⁓ understand the kind of work that you do and also just how you got started and what your career has been. Yeah. I feel like I'm a professional scroll chaser. I just I've always been an idea person and I try to bring him to life and it's full of ⁓ a portfolio of massive failures, semi failures, occasional success and and I love all the creative tools, cameras, paintbrushes, all the above. Yeah, I started as a painter. And then it became a graphic designer, then became a web designer. Right. And then finally landed in photography, even though I nearly failed my one photography class in college. but yeah, yeah, shooting now full time for twenty plus years. Incredible. I think actually Zach and I were chatting. It was right when you were in the design meets web design era. I think you were doing a lot of things in the music industry, if I'm correct. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we were We saw this transition where you started doing some photos and we were like, Wait, what's going on here? And then it seemed like you were doing a lot more photos than any design work. Tell us how that that came to be because you for all by all accounts it seemed you were very successful as a designer. Yeah, it was as simple as like I don't wanna be in front of a computer the rest of my life. When digital we were just talking about my first digital camera, when those I'm Very old now, obviously, but this is like early two thousands canon release, the first point and shoot, a G one, three megapixels. Ooh, three megapixels. And ⁓ literally bought it just to use as a handheld scanner with texture. Interesting. Just love like this texture and that texture and that texture. ⁓ that's interesting. And so I'd use it as a handheld scanner. But all of my friends were musicians. Yeah. And so they're like, Well, can you shoot me? I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, but ⁓ Were you shooting them on the three megapixel? Yeah. I love it. Wow, that's great. Dave Barnes and Matword's all that. But then ironically, I you know, as that started like working, then I would borrow my friend's medium format. So I'm like shooting unbelievable medium format along with a friggin' three megapixel point shoe at the same time, you know, for labels and stuff. And then It was like three years of that and then finally I decided like no more design. Got it. Only when I showed it 'cause yeah, that was really taken off very, very quickly. Did you have a background in photography? 'Cause for a lot of people who are just beginning in their photography journey to jump into medium format is very intimidating. Did you have some knowledge of cameras and how that worked, or were you just like, Well the heck, I'm gonna figure this out? Zero. Yeah. That's incredible. His sister never you know, I took again I took one class 'cause it was a requirement and I hated the professor. He hated all his students. I think that's why I hated him. I was like, anyway. Yeah. You should never do this. So I got a D in photography. Yeah, I really did. I really did. But I 'cause it was like so you could see you now, man. It was so intimidating. I was like, What? Like F stops and dark rooms. I mean, how I It is incredibly intimidating, yeah. It is. And so no, I didn't learn anything. It wasn't until many years later that I and the even when I shot media format, yeah, I still had no idea. Like my friend Darcy would bring her camera, she would download the film, dial in all the settings. I would literally just point you. Yeah. But because I had studied graphic design, I feel like photography is the exact same thing. When you ⁓ when you frame a a a shot, you're it's still lines and color and composition. Balance and foreground and background, it's like all the same things you're thinking about. So it just felt so natural to me right to be a graphic designer and and a viewfinder. ⁓ makes sense. Yeah. I think that's why it worked. I just loved yeah, I loved it. If it really did feel like painting and design in my hands and it just came natural and it wasn't until really a few years into it that then I became very technical. 'Cause in the beginning I was like, I'll just live off of my eye. And I was like a lot of young people where it's like we we just don't want to bother with learning all the specifics. Right, right. But then once I learn once I started diving into the actual manual so both the lighting and the cameras, I realized that ⁓ the more you learn technically, the more you can achieve creatively. Yeah. And I was like, ⁓ and so then I got really obsessed with learning. I was like, I wanna learn everything 'cause I realized that the it just it just spurred the creativity. I had so many more ideas. Once I learned all the dumb cameras and like on the flip side of that, so you you are now creating I would say from a very early stage you were creating at a very high level. And that's a testament to how you see the world, but then you definitely put in the work. But we're at your studio, I know everyone can't see it, but there's pictures of Jeremy with all these different celebrities and people that you've t taken photos of. So in this time, how did you start actually getting jobs because one of the biggest concerns or issues that come up when we're talking to our younger photographers who are, you know, out listening right now, it's I love photography. I'm actually pretty good at it. How do I how in the world do I actually start getting jobs? How do I move from like I'm taking pictures of my super cool friends to I'm taking pictures of people who will give me money. Whether it's a penny or a lot more, it doesn't matter, but just like see value and hire you. How did that happen for you? Yeah, our friend Madison is here off camera and I was doing what she's doing. I was just like photographing my friends. I mean very much writing the coattails of my friends because they would get signed to record labels and then the record labels would like what I did for my friend. And you were here in Nashville at the time. And so just kept leaving the community matters there, yeah. ⁓ and I had already built the clientele through design. I see then I just told ⁓ my clients, Hey now shooting. Here's a new service. Okay. And so they would they would hire me for the graphic design, the web design, the photo shoots, like all Okay. Okay. I got real lucky in two thousand five when an agent called me from Hollywood and I had beat her for a job. Okay. And she was like, Hey, you just beat me for this gig and I love your work. I love to represent you. Wow. And I had never heard of That I didn't know agents existed. And so we signed a deal. It's like landing a record deal, you know. And then immediately I was like in Hollywood meeting with, you know, NBC and ABC and all the big networks. Right. And it was zero to sixty in a couple of months. Okay. Wow. It was crazy. Yeah. Can you share for people that maybe don't have context of what a rep or an agency does, just a real high level of like what what does that even mean? Yeah, I mean it's it's harder these days and I'm not sure it's as helpful as it was then. Okay. Because now everybody's their own agent with social media and stuff. But back then, yeah, I mean she she took twenty five percent of every gig, but she lined up meetings twenty four seven all the time. I was I was flying to New York and LA. I think at one point I had fifteen printed portfolios and she was shipping them all over the country and so I was I was like the hot item, you know, I was like I call agents like a box of chocolates and they're always promoting the new flavor. Right. And so I got to be that new flavor for a while. And so and now I can appreciate it 'cause I would walk into friggin', you know, Fox or these movie studios and I would land a gig like immediately. And as a again, twenty seven year old. Yeah. And I was just showing them my stupid artsy photos of my G one, my little cannon. And they would hire me like six figure gigs. Wow. That now or I mean six figure like total budget, you know. Shooting on sound stages with a sea of gear and all that. But I was I was just so lucky. I mean, it was like s you know, catching lightning in a bottle. 'Cause now those gigs, even for me, are super hard to super hard to get. ⁓ did you feel imposter syndrome at the time? Or were you like, nah, I got this. ⁓ there is I mean 'cause that's a huge jump at twenty-seven to be going into Fox going in and like, yeah, man, I got this, you know? No, it's a strange there definitely was zero confidence. Zero confidence but there was I've always loved crazy risk and crazy adventure and crazy like I love possibility of failure. I'm drawn to it. And so ⁓ that's interesting. I mean my first gig was the big gig was for prison break. And so I show up to a sound stage. The TV show, right? Yeah. Yeah we and we have, you know, a literal sound stage. And so there's ten sets that we have to light. I had never used a light before. Yeah. And so I'm looking at C stands and fifty stroves and just literally probably fifty grand in rental gear. And I just had to fake my way through it and had a whole crew assisting me. Okay. Okay. Didn't know what I was doing. ⁓ that is my I'll be like, Yeah, just make that set kind of vibey and moody. It was like whatever. And then I would literally watch them set up the gear to learn how to I would watch my own assistance to learn how to light. Yeah. And that is baptism by fire. Yes, yeah. Wow. It was crazy. I love that you just went in with it though. I think there's I mean, maybe you did lack some of the technical like setting up this rig or setting up this light, but you did have a vision for things. And that I think has always consistently come through that. ⁓ I think a lot of photographers sometimes will discount the strengths because they're concerned about their weaknesses. Mm-hmm. When sometimes just lean into those strengths or find people and or find people that are there's some people that are really good at lighting. You know? Yeah. ⁓ So I think a consistent theme that I've heard with for successful photographers is that kind of willingness to risk, willingness to fail even, just to jump into something. I think a lot of people get stuck waiting till they feel like they're ready. And I don't know if that time ever comes. And can you ever be ready? Yeah, yeah. And just that willingness to just jump in and figure it out on the go and it clearly it works. Right. Is that courage? Is that the right terms? But I think there's a It's like it's almost like a blend of humility too, because like you know I don't know what I'm doing. But I gotta figure this out and Yeah, I think it's just like the love of like I remember as a kid, two very specific memories of going into like old school eighties haunted houses. Okay. When they were like actually scary and they could touch I would never do that. I would never do that. Chainsaws and like literally people crying. Yep, yep. And I and I remember like the specific memory of all my friends I was the only one who wanted to like go into it first, like be the leader. And then another memory as a youth, like as a on a youth trip, like being the the only one that wanted to do the rope scores first, to walk on the rope up high when nobody else wanted to. And I've realized that's the same thing as an adult in business. Like I love you know, these these gigs feel like the haunted house moment. Like Wow. Let me just go in and get scared and get grabbed and you know I think I think we're built out of different clock 'cause I watched Jaws as like a seven year old and I still don't like going in the ocean now. ⁓ Besides just having that personality, is there anything that you do within yourself to kind of help you get over that hump and just do something even when you're afraid to do it? There's no like strategy or anything. I think I think with being older and just straight up old. Thankfully, I just really don't care what people think. I know a lot of people are really, really afraid of failure. And I just know that if something fails, like we don't really remember failure. I just know that nobody's gonna remember if this idea fails. And I do think that keeps most humans from doing the wild brave thing. They're just too afraid of whether other pe other people think Mm. Whereas I'm like, I just don't care. I'm just gonna try it. Even the event two weeks ago. Yeah. That felt very naked, the the fundraising event. Like that was putting myself out there in a pretty yeah, extraordinary way. As I said some stuff that night that is really ambitious and bold and a lot of it may not happen, but it felt freeing to just like, here's my heart, here's what I want to do. It probably won't work, but yeah, here it is anyway. Actually that's that would be great to talk about. For context, Jeremy's talking about an event that he held for his new project called If You're Breathing, which I I'm gonna let you describe it. But he went up on stage and he just shared his heart behind this. And it was very raw and it was very authentic and very difficult because you're sitting in front of a room of hundreds of people, not only sharing your work, which is always already a like it's tough to put your work out, but then more than that, you are sharing your heart of what you're trying to do. And and like you said, you're like think it's cool. I don't know if it's gonna work. But you did it and I think that's very inspiring to a lot of people. Tell tell us more about this if you're breathing project. Yeah. We go through our lives and we get puzzle pieces one at a time without ever knowing what the final puzzle is supposed to look like. So all these pieces throughout my career painting and graphic design and photo and then art and drawing and even augmented reality and all this generative code stuff I'm doing feel like they've all been puzzle pieces and I finally feel like this new project is the revelation of the puzzle. It's like now I understand how all these things fit together. So it's a project called A for Breathing and I'm gonna be finding people in extreme need, whether that's like sick with cancer, I've worked with two gunshot victims who found these stories and I go spend all day making art with him through all kinds of Definitely a lot of photography but other outlets as well. And then we make art but we don't tell them why. So it's kind of like a secret. We're just like saying, Yeah, it's art therapy, whatever. And then all the things we make get turned into fashion, into clothing, so T shirts and hoodies right now, eventually hats and even prints. And then we hope to get really good engagement, 'cause if it goes, if it does well then people find out about it and they can buy the merch that we make and then we return to I called them ordiners because they're my like partners in our art for today. So we come back to the Ordners with the paycheck from the proceeds of the merch. And it's like a undercover boss meets extreme makeover kind of vibe where we we hope to blow them away with the paycheck to fund their story. But the cool thing is they are funding their own story. Yeah. I'm just there to be like the guide and giving them the tools to let them be the hero of their own story. And so then we do that over and over and over. And for me it's just so much ⁓ it's like unbelievably fulfilling to to just be that creative. Right. To help people in the process, to be free of compliance or rules or deadlines and just freely create ⁓ you get to play with somebody who and and almost lead them and allow in in doing that themselves. Yeah. That's cool. ⁓ before we started recording, you were showing some of the the things that you've done. I mean, maybe could you just highlight like one or two of your favorite stories? I mean, you were projecting on somebody's eye. Like I think when people hear what you say, they're imagining like maybe you're just taking some pictures or something, but it's it's a lot. It's yeah incredible stories. Yeah, I had one girl in here. She was 19, her mom was on the wall on a FaceTime call. She was in New York getting cancer treatments. And so I was like, how do we make art virtually and together? And so I had the mom on FaceTime draw even the darkness deserve stars at a circle. I had her draw like trace the bottom of coffee cup and she wrote it. And then I had her put it up on the wall in the LAD wall. And so then I had the daughter photograph it. And then we took those words and then I used a little miniature projector and I projected mom's words handwriting into her eyeball. Right. And then I had her shoot with a little remote a self portrait of her own eye with a macro lens. So the whole photo, just her eyeball with her mom's handwriting in her eye. And then we turned that photo and that graphic into t shirts and hoodies. And I had a a young kid who was robbed a gunpoint this past summer. They shot him in the neck twice, ⁓ eighteen years old. So he's paralyzed neck down. So he could only use his face. I'm like, well, he's breathing, so we're gonna make something. And so we literally painted on canvas with our noses. So load up paint on our nose and anyway we made these little paintings and once I turned those into merge, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I'll wear this every day. Yeah. It's just so much fun. No so as you're telling these stories, it's just bringing all these different things to mind. Is there a place that you're gonna be sharing these or showing these? I I know you said the the end results is like a shirt that's sold, but the stories are so powerful. Are you documenting these and can our viewers see those? Yeah, we haven't really we've only released the first day of Jen and LA, which was the daughter and the her mom and her mom's already sadly passed away. ⁓ since we ⁓ worked together that day. But it's so cool now that merch proceeds forever and we'll go to fund Ellie's and her brother's tour. And they also lost their dad. So they're on their own. And so yeah, we'll get to like invest in them. So the other stories we have not released yet. But yeah, it'll all be hopefully a wave of content coming here soon. Very cool. Yeah, very cool. Switching topics slightly to this, I think one of the things that you brought up was the projections and you have multiple layers. You have this backdrop with the screen. You're talking about hand-drawn elements that you're either scanning or photographing in that you're then projecting on the subject's eyeball. ⁓ I wish y'all could see in the studio that I mean there's it's a very interesting yeah okay there you go. It's a very interesting setup and it's very unique. Tell us how you got to that point because I'm I'm imagining it was a process. Like this is years of playing around with the lighting or the projection or or whatever. Tell us a little bit about your process and things that you discovered along the way to cause it, because your output is very you for lack of you have a strong perspective. We've been actually talking about the idea of having a clear perspective as a photographer and artist. And I think you've very much achieved that over a long period of time, which is difficult. Going back to you're talking about how you love textures. I mean, I feel like you've been bringing texture into work always from shooting through viewfinders of old cameras. Yeah. Before I saw anybody else doing that to now projecting and AR and so tell tell us about that. And and I know it's over the course of many years, but if you could consolidate that, tell us about that process. Yeah. I mean it really, really I laugh, I mean I joke about it, but it's also legit. Like I'm so A D D. That I remember this all started in 14 where I was getting hired a lot to do studio shoots on a white backdrop. Okay. And I hated them. Because it was like, cool, same lighting, yep, yep. And it was like eight hour shoes on a white seamless. And I was so bored. I was like, I'd rather be punched in the face all day. How I get the lighting to change every shot? And so I called the gear manufacturers and I found this like trigger of the with like it was made for sports. No one at that time that I'm aware of had ever used it for portraits. So I figured out how to get like you shoot your first shot and then the second shot different lighting, third shot different lighting. Okay. And then I was projectors at that time. I wanted the backgrounds to change too. And so I'd like create a art and I would project it. And then I would like walk over to the computer and go to the next background image and I would change to the next background. And then one day I like, ⁓ my gosh, I should like make a movie background textures that just change and play it. Yeah. So then I did that for a long time. And then I'm ski skipping and spanning many years, but eventually my friends at RJ Young were like, We love what you're doing with projection. We do want an LED wall. So a hundred percent. And so I've had this LED wall, which is about ten by eleven feet. Yeah, it's quite large. A few years now and it's just changed everything in terms of what I'm able to do. Cause you know, before I was having to use like flags and grids and all because you can't have light hitting a projected wall 'cause it just makes it milky and it like dilutes the colors and so having a backlit LED will changes what I'm able to do. And then there's then the way that I tether to capture one and the systems I've had to invent. To make it all like extremely ⁓ I'd say the software side of what I do is maybe even more crazy and fascinating than what I'm doing in here. Cause then I had to hire coders to like also help me make every image edited different as I shoot. Okay. So when I'm shooting, I've got a different background in every photo and then different lighting in every photo, different editing in every photo. Because it's it's constantly ch on every click pretty much it's changing. So for the last two years I've been doing these sixty second photo shoots where people come in for one minute and I will shoot about two hundred portraits in and I will direct them, start like look over here, look down, smile piece here, look over here and I'll get a range of emotions in one minute and I'll have about two hundred frames all edited differently. And they even figured out a way to by the time they walked out the door, it was all delivered in a guy. It's clear because I think this is phenomenal. I want to make sure I understand. So in that sixty seconds to walk away with hundreds of images, you're shooting pretty much continuously. Yeah, burst mode. You're shooting burst mode. The background is changing, like all the lights are firing at slightly different times, I would imagine then. So you're getting different shadows and lighting setups. Okay. And then with the new R five Mark III, you can limit birth mode to eight to whatever amount of frames you want. ⁓ okay. So limit the R five at eight frames. And so it's like look over here, brrrr. Click over here, brrrr it's even faster than that. I mean it's like boom, boom, boom, and each time is eight frames. And your model is just kind of moving around in that process which gives a different look each time. Okay. And then in your software and your editing, everything are you randomly applying edits to everything? Then it all the different ways. There is a a system where it's randomized. The my favorite thing to do is in capture one I'll drag the the columns to where it's eight columns. So my some a lighting setups align. If that makes sense. So I've got eight lighting setups. Yeah. Okay. So then I've got eight columns. Interesting. So then I can select a column which I had to custom build that code for capture one. Okay. So that I can just edit that lighting setup. Wow. So then I'll 'cause if one lighting setup is like yeah, stop too dark, wow and I only need to edit that one lighting setup, I can do that. That's crazy. That's really cool. Yeah. The thing is though, and I've literally done thousands of these photo shoots. In fact One day I did a hundred and twenty seven shoots in one day. And it was like my back hurts. ⁓ When I first started ⁓ it was when the idea was new and it was literally all just all d align out the door and I'll just cranking them out. The thing though that I realized over time is like number one, nobody needs that many photos. It's cool to us as photographers, but there's not really a use for it. Like it's cool as it is. Just like I don't know, I've kind of given it not given up on it, just throwing in the towel because I'm like it's fine, but who needs yeah, two hundred portraits, you know themselves. So Right. But the process of the background, the lights, projections, those are things that create me if I'm wrong, you're using you're applying that into your commercial shoots now. Game changer was I was shooting for Star Trek, Caramel Plus on a giggle. Two thousand the last two years ago. Okay. Twenty four. Okay. And I was saving all up. We had just twice as many delight, I think sixteen strokes probably. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm already shooting embursement. I've already got everything changing, the backgrounds, the lighting. Why am I not doing stop motion videos? ⁓ yeah. ⁓ one of their guns, a little laser gun. Yeah. I was like, can you do me a favor? Just give me like five seconds to just turn and shoot your gun and do your thing. And I was just like you know, and the whole just the whole set is going off. The backgrounds were going off. And then I just thumbed through the thumbnails and capture one, just holding the arrow down. I was like, ⁓ my gosh. What Where has this been? Wow. And so then that changed my process from sales to video to motion. And I doubt that's really ever been done before. And so since then that has become very much my specialty is doing stuff. So I've cool, you know, done that for the Titans now. I did it for Amazon at the ACM Wars and then so interesting. And again, not like ⁓ It's probably best for the way I'm using it for sports for the hype videos, you know. Yeah, yeah. There's a ton of energy. Yeah, it's just very energetic and chaos and you would never like need that for any like filmmaking purposes. It's more just like a cool effect. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. Yeah. It's really cool. ⁓ go ahead. Well I wanna circle back to while you're still breathing, 'cause this is not your first sort of social impact photography project at all. I just kinda wanted to know, I guess Your perspective on those sorts of projects, because you're a very successful commercial photographer, but then these yeah you know, just purely it seemingly purely for good, for the good of people, for social impact kind of projects that you've done has been a big part of your career, your story, I feel like. What drives you to do those? Like does it does it have a business impact or is it purely just to feed your soul? You know, how how does that fit into your whole thing? Yeah. The shortest answer is I've realized it's The only thing that matters. Mm. With clients with these big they're super great to get work and to pay the bills. So eventually no matter how big the client gets, it's still just a gig. You know, it's not like I mean, I had the best year of my career this past year in terms of you know right now I'm dealing with one of the biggest brands on the world. It's still like, ⁓ it's just another client. I don't know if y'all saw just another client from like a satisfaction, like this is Yeah, is that f what do you mean by that? Well, I don't know if y'all saw the guy, ⁓ Scotty Scheffler, the guy that won the masters last year. There's a real famous speech he did afterwards where he was like, It's just not fulfilling. He's like, I won masters and I'm still like, So what's for dinner tonight? You know, it's like and he kind of shocked the sports world because he was like, This isn't what it what life is about, you know. Wow. And I think the same applies to you reach these goals and photography, and I'm like, What? I'm like, that's not filling my soul. And what does fill my soul to answer your question is to like look back on these projects I've done in Haiti and Africa and Gallenberg wildfire projects and and earthquake relief stuff I've done. And so yeah, I'm like, that's legacy work. That's what I want to talk to my kids about. That's what I wanna and not from a ego standpoint or look how good I am, but truly just like this is why we're here. I think is to help make as cliché and cheesy as it sounds, but to love others, make the world a better place. How do we use our our gifts for good? Like it's just the only thing that matters. Right. You know? ⁓ I mean it sounds like that's your why that's the thing that helps you to be able to do that. But have to be creative. I think if we're just serving there's still the emptiness that we're not being artists, we're not being creative. I have to be creative as well or I'll I'll check out that's who you were made to be with that. Yeah. But like that that intersection of creativity and empathy is like the only thing that matters. Because this gig I'm doing right now, it's like cool, they've hired me to like reimagine the future of their brand, but that's just me being creatively being creative and getting a paycheck. Okay. So you know. Yeah. ⁓ yeah I mean I think this is really important for people to hear because I think so many people Whether they're up and coming or ⁓ in the middle of their career, you know, we all imagine some future state of success. If I just could shoot this client. Where everything's gonna suddenly be great. And I mean I felt this a little bit in Visco. We've had ⁓ a measure of success and you're still the same you, you have the same problems, the same you know, it's it nothing changes. Right. And I I think hearing that from you who I mean, it's hard to find other photographers who have had a success like you in in your career, it it doesn't change. That like that that's true for everybody and I think it's good to go in wide eyes wide open, knowing that and then okay, so then how do I make my life meaningful to me? Meaningful. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I find myself like more excited to chat about painting with my nose with a kid paralyzed neck down than I am like shooting, you know, whatever celebrities last year with Amazon. Like yeah. I'm more proud of that work. It's crazy. ⁓ yeah. Not even proud's the wrong word, but fulfilled. Yeah, yeah. Fulfilled. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. We're all searching for some semblance of meaning or purpose or calling. Mm-hmm. Well, I think a lot of us get into this because we we feel that to begin with in some sort of amateur level and we imagine, gosh, if I could just do this for money, right. Then I would I would feel this and I would be making money. And it's not always quite how it goes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great. make money being creative. I will always be super grateful. ⁓ yeah. To be providing for my family as an artist. Right. Even though and we should talk about that too, 'cause the ⁓ I guess everything we said so far d does pain me as a success. But I mean as one of my best friends, the financial struggles I've still carried through this career are extreme. Yeah. I mean they're extra granted my overhead is a lot and I'm Forty eight, I've got four kids, one in college, a special needs child, like always but is truly feature Vim and Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like giving videos. Yeah. I mean I do think thank you for your transparency on that. I do think the topic of essentially money is something that oftentimes as photographers we're not talking about, or you want to portray this position on Instagram like I'm successful. Because that's how you get hired or or what have you. But I I do think so many of the conversations that we're having off camera, it's like, man, it's awesome. I'm so grateful I do what we do, but it's a hustle. Whether you're just starting off or you've been doing it for a while. And there's levels and layers to this, right? Like, but you it is a constant it almost feels like that's part of being a creative, is that you need to accept there is about there is some risk, there is feast or famine. Man, some months you're gonna get more jobs than you can and other job another weeks you're gonna be like, shoot. You know, like Is anybody ever gonna hire me again? Right. And and I do think as you get older and you have kids, ⁓ that pressure does increase. Do you have any tips for that photographer who's maybe let's say mid journey in their career, who are ch you know, maybe starting to have a family. Are there any tips you could give about like how you approach the business side of things? Knowing with the caveat, hey, it's always gonna be a struggle, but like we've had some people say retainers are a good way to go, others like any any little tips that you've learned? Yeah, it's hard to everything is just shifting by the day right now. Everything is changing. It's so hard to sure retainers would be amazing. I by the way, I've never I don't know that I've ever had a retainer client in my career. I've never had somebody that's just like paying me constantly. Although this new gig I just got might be that. Anyway, my main advice, and I'm so like insanely passionate about this, especially to young artists, is to obsessively learn. That sounds so again, maybe cliche, but I've just realized like I'm again I'm approaching fifty and I'm more relevant and more like I've just had the best year of my career. Yeah. And the only way that I'm staying not burnt out, not jaded, not all the things, is cause I learn like crazy. Like as soon as something comes out, I'm just fascinated. Yeah. Whether it's AI or, you know, when Capture One came out, I was one of the first using that. Camera slides, I just love learning because learning is what creates more ideas. Like creators were like a carpenter. And if you have a hammer and nails and some lumber, you can build Only build so much. Yeah. But the more physical tools you give a carpenter, the more and better they can build. Right. The same exact thing applies to us. It's like the more you're already a core element of creativity. So the more tools you throw in there, you can build bigger and bigger and bigger. And now when I look at if you're breathing, I'm literally using utilizing Photoshop cameras. Paintbrushes, AI, A augmented reality. I just showed you all a piece where you walk through literally layers of art. Like you gotta you just gotta learn those stuff. And so I just think that more than ever, creators and artists have to be obsessively learning all of it. How are you finding out about these new things? Do you have s set aside time every day where like I'm gonna learn this? Or like how are you discovering these in the first place? Yeah, there there is a method and I just subscribe. To newsletters. So all the breaking like I love Petapixel for photo industry. Shout out Petapixel. Yeah. And then I subscribe to several like AI newsletters. A lot of my Instagram feed is a lot of like tech outlets. And so I'm always just paying attention to like what's emerging. Right. I just know that I'm a carpenter and I can add that to the toolkit, you know. Yeah. So I mean you're serving this question up on a silver platter, so I just gotta ask it. Talk about AI. Yeah. Th there's so much conversation amongst photographers about this. Clearly you have found some you know a a new tool within it. How are you approaching it? How are you thinking about it? How are you using it? Well wha how how's that gone for you? Yeah, I feel like AI is a word as big as the word internet or money. And it's gonna it's gonna bring so much good and so much bad. Yeah. I'm gonna think more bad than good. and I am on the very cutting edge of what's happening. I have to be, because again, I've landed this new this new global client and they're encouraging me to play with it and learn it. So I'm like literally trying to learn the the brand new, you know, tricks and stuff. I personally well I was saying this earlier, I'll never post an AI image to my Instagram feed and say, look how brilliant I am. Like I don't there is no there is no creative satisfaction for me. as an artist to create an AI image and share that. For me it is a it is simply a tool. In fact, I don't know that I'll even use it to assist an image. I like to create in my personal artistry I like to just make what a make what I share. However, it has changed my life in terms of ideation. So for example, right now I'm pitching like crazy. I'm pitching ideas, whether it's a hotel or ⁓ this if you're breathing project, I'm creating a fashion line. And so now to be able to take an image, yeah. You've done this too. Yeah. And to be able to show that image what it would look like on a hoodie right and a t shirt and to pitch ideas to get investments, to get funding, to get donors, that has changed everything. I mean it's I would agree. I found that very true. 'Cause it ha sometimes when you're describing things to people in the early ideation stage You can say things, but people are so visual that they need to see it. So in your case, like, hey, this is what the store could look like or this is what the shirt could look like. Yes. It helps people imagine that and get sign off. And then I mean, eventually you'll take photographs of the shirt of the store of whatever it might be. But but yeah, I think as a ideation and like mood board plus type of tool, it could be good. Recently we launched Fisco Canvas, which is that that exact thing ⁓ where it's it's a mood boarding tool, a collaborative mood boarding tool with the client. And then you can put what whatever you want on. But you also we do have generative AI to help you like sell that vision. We're not trying to take over what that photograph will be, but we are helping you try to come up with that idea and get sign off by clients so that you can execute clearly. And it's been a really helpful product. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, so I mean I use it all day, every day. I feel like a as an idea guy. A lot of times ideas are like sevens out of ten. And now I feel like every idea has the potential to be a ten out of ten. Yeah. Because yeah, I can really help you explore what's missing. And so I don't know. I just feel like it's made me and everybody else a bit superhuman, which is kind of makes you feel guilty on one hand, but it's just a world we're entering where we have this ability to creativity assist it and I love it and I hate it. I will say this, like I hate looking at AI. Like when s when open AI released Sora, I mean, I think I spent one day and maybe thirty minutes like because they're trying to launch their own TikTok, but it's all A and I could not have been more uninterested, grossed out. And I don't know anybody that loves it. Like it truly feels like AI slop. There's a bit of novelty to it at first. Like, whoa, it's a dancing bear. You know, but then you're like, huh. Yeah. I mean I'm with everybody else. Like I wish there was a button that we could hit on Instagram or across platforms. It's like, I don't want to see any ⁓ like only human made art is of interest. So Yeah. It's interesting. Well we'll be curious to see where this goes. That probably if we have this conversation in a year we'll Have new things to talk about with that because it is the the landscape is changing. But from my perspective, there's no question that photography is not dying. AI is not going to kill the I find it fascinating that a huge global brand is coming to you, hiring you as a photographer, as a creative director, but then also encouraging you to a use AI to probably bring the budget down and expedite the process. I mean, I feel like that's actually a pretty good story because it's not the story of AI replacing the photographer. It's the story of the photographer getting hired to use AI for the brand. I've never heard that story yet. I do I do feel like it is almost like a a breaking news story because it is a big deal. And I I will say that I don't think the budget did come down. Really? And yeah, it's it's yeah, I don't think So you just get to keep more of it. That's great. I still feel like a photographer. And and I will say it's kicked my butt in terms of like it's just not I mean, yes, it is prompting, you get the image, but it takes me sometimes an entire day of like hard work to get the shot, whether that's composition, lighting, angle, stuff in the foreground prisms, and to get the brand logo right on the shirt right. Like it's still I'm still fighting all those battles. And then I'm combining it with actual photography. Like you were one of my models, you know. ⁓ So it's so cool. There's here's total freedom. We want you to shoot, but we want you to lean into AI as well. And so I feel it's like the unicorn gig of all of all gigs. And I'm using something called generative code, which is not AI. Generative code is like having an assistant without having an assistant where you you the way I use it is I create a s a series of images. And then you take another series of I'll just say black and white P and Gs and use the code to scramble them all together and then you curate the best results. But it's all still literally your creations, your art, your photos, your whatever. You're just using code to explore the combinations of all these things. And so fascinating. It's a it's a mix of literally all of it. AR A photo and generative code. Interesting. Wow. Yeah. This has been an incredible conversation. You've we've covered a a a broad range of topics, but I feel like you have dropped so much knowledge for our photography community. Lastly, is there anything that you would say, you you as a photographer, you've done this for decades at this point, any advice that you would give to our younger photographers to close this just stay keep it about the work. I feel like right now with young photographers. There's a lot of pride in what camera they're using. And I I don't feel like I'm seeing as much pride in talk about the actual results of the camera. ⁓ And so yeah, I just hope to see everybody excited about the art and shooting and the actual results and not not the tools. Right. For sure. Right. Use the tools or butt. Use the tools, but it's not that's not what defines you as the photographer. Yeah, I think I'm telling you a story recently where I went to some I don't know, it was a weird event. I was like a it was like a wannabe Shark Tank type event. I was one of the judges, but they had a lot of local photographers set up like their own booth. Yeah. And and you get to like go and look at all these different photographers. And they all had their all their cameras out and very little work. It was almost like you should hire me because of the camera tell me. I'm a good camera collector. Right. And I was like, Wait, why I I want to see it work. I don't care what cameras you use. Did you see this? Did you can? Yeah. Yeah, they're all like VHS record. I and they all have the same vintage cameras. Yeah. Like, where's the product and the work? And so I do feel like there's a dynamic where because what works on social media and kind of the design of social media is very much a consumerism model to sell things, to sell ads. So much of what works on there is cameras, gear, trying to get you to buy stuff essentially. Which I think sort of in the atmosphere of what photographers on social media then feel is that gear is really important. 'Cause that's so much of what they're being shown. And I love that you're saying, no, focus on the art, focus on the work. Yeah. Like it felt like instead of look how good my work is, look how cool I am. It's like you're cool, you're cool, but ⁓ I wanna see the good work. Interesting. Madison's a good example. She's got really good work. Yeah. Do the work. Do the good work. Yeah. Gosh. Jeremy, thank you so much. This has been a gift. Wonderful conversation. Obviously, people want to see more of your work. JeremyCowert.com. gosh, so all day then. ⁓ where should they go? Yeah, where's a good place? Probably just my Instagram Okay. The best place, yeah. Cool. Very good. Well, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right, we'll see you next time. Thanks, Jeremy.