Latest / Reimagine Running / Reimagine Running | Ultra Training with Eric and Ryan S1E26
Transcript
- Ryan Head: you're sacrificing hours to gain minutes, which is not what you want to do, right? We want to sacrifice minutes to gain hours. And if you're asking yourself, okay, well Ryan, what does that mean? I just got up Bear Canyon and you're looking at your pace and you're like, my overall pace now is like 27 minutes per mile, right? And that's for all of us regular people. For the elites, you're probably faster. But for the regulars, you're like, dude, I gotta go, And and you start to sacrifice hours to gain minutes. You're like, okay, I'm gonna gain a few minutes here. you're doing an eight-minute pace, running down from Francis Peak, down to Groben, and you're just hauling to get there as quick as possible. Well, you now you're you're sacrificing hours because what's happening is you're not thinking about what your body's gonna be like at mile 70, You're like, I gotta get back on track, And you do that, and you're putting yourself at risk here again you're gonna want to reverse this like I said you're gonna want to sacrifice minutes to gain hours so what I mean by that is hey you know what if right now my pace is a little bit slower A okay. Lean into that Because if you do, what's gonna happen is is later down the path you're gonna feel good. You're not gonna feel burnt out. You're not gonna be like, well I got back up to the pace I wanted to be, but I sacrificed so much to get there. Now my stores are completely devastated and I'm only twenty miles into this race and I got all these problems going on and we got all these issues. I mean first twenty miles of Wasatch, you need to feel like you didn't even start the race yet. Coach Ryan Head: Running is a strange thing. Some people find it on the sidewalk at sunrise. Some find it deep in the mountains chasing daylight. And some of us find it when life feels heavy and running is the only thing that makes sense. For some, starts with the 5k. For others, it's a marathon. And for a few, it's a hundred miles that changes everything. But somewhere between the first step and the finish line, something happens. Running stops being about pace or distance or medals. It becomes about purpose. I'm your host Ryan Head. And this is Reimagine Running, the podcast dedicated to talking about why we run. Each episode, we'll sit down with runners from every background, trail runners, road runners, beginners, veterans, and talk about their journey. Not just where they've run, but why they run. Because for many of us, running didn't just change our fitness. It helped us find clarity, healing, discipline, hope, and sometimes even ourselves. Whether your why was born on a short loop around the block or somewhere deep inside a long, lonely mile. This podcast is for you. Welcome to re-imagine running. Ryan Head: Alright, everybody, welcome back to Reimagine Running, the podcast talking about why we run. Alright, guys, this episode is gonna be a little bit different. I'm actually really excited about this idea. As you guys have heard, this whole season we've been doing a lot of different episodes, mostly interviewing people, talking about their why, why they run, hearing their backstory to what they're doing, what they're trying to accomplish, and what they have accomplished. It's been fun so far to do that. You know, we're 25 episodes in. This is episode number 26. So it's been fun. It's been amazing. But as I have been talking to a former guest who's actually not only been a guest on here, but also led one of the episodes. Me and him run a few times each week And one thing that we've been talking a lot about is just finding that right balance with training. And I think this is a topic that I, you know, honestly a lot of people probably are looking to hear and looking to get guidance on because especially if you're kind of new to ultra running, you're new to marathon training, whatever it is, we are starting it to head into the fall season with running and there could be a lot of different things going on with you. whether you're like, okay, why is this niggle going on? Why is this heat affecting me? So on and so forth, right? There's a million things that could be coming at you at this point. So honestly, as me and Eric have been talking about it, we've been thinking, okay, you know what? This would be a really good topic to just discuss with our listeners, with our viewers. you know, it it just seemed like a no-brainer. So I'm excited again, obviously, to bring Eric Sutterfield back onto the podcast with me. he is like, as I was joking with him before we started, he's kind of a quasi-co-host at this point. Eric: Yeah. Ryan Head: this is his third time on, so it's fun to have him on. He's a good friend, someone that I respect a lot, just because as you know, if you go back and you listen to the episode with him, I believe it was episode five or six, he he gave a lot of really good information about the races he's done. and a lot of people have commented about how impactful his races were and how his story was very impactful on them. So I highly encourage you to go back, give that episode a listen. because I think there's a lot to learn from that. But we want to talk about things that we can do to help people move forward with their training and make sure they're staying focused for that race that's coming up sometime in August, September, October, November, whenever it is this year. So, you know, without further ado, let's do this. Eric, dude, again, first and foremost, thank you, thank you, thank you for being willing to come back on and be on the pod, man. Eric: Yeah, no, this is a lot of fun, you know, because we spend so much time running, thinking about running, strategizing about running, and you know, you always have good fun conversations with yourself and other people. So, you know, getting together and sharing our thoughts and views on running, it's it's a lot of fun. Ryan Head: Yeah. Dude, I I a hundred percent agree. And I think that's the part that's been the funnest. So, you know, i in a lot of ways you guys are gonna be joining us for kind of a a virtual run, if you will, this morning, this afternoon, this evening, whenever you're listening to this, just because this is really kind of how me and Eric do it. we talk a lot about running on our runs, and our training and the processes that you you know, the thoughts that you go through So again giving him just a quick intro, again He's been on a couple of times already, but Eric lives here in Utah. Good friend of mine. He's done multiple races from the Havilina 100 to the Wasach 100. Multiple marathon finisher. Has accomplished many, many great things in the running arena. The one thing I really just appreciate about Eric is it's not so much about a pace or a place, if you will, for him when it comes to running. his focus now is the experience. And really just enjoying it. And I relate to that so much. I mean, yeah, once in a while I like I still like to race, but I just enjoy being out there and enjoying that experience because you know, not many things compared to really going after, you know, a hundred mile, going after that belt buckle to going after that, you know, that medal for a marathon. So I just I I like I I think Eric me and Eric just we flow together really well and just excited to have him back on. So so there's a little intro to Eric again, but Eric, I I want to kick it off by asking, you know, kind of, if you will, it may be the the biggest question of them all, and I just love to get your thoughts on this. So, you know, right now a lot of us are in the middle of our train blocks, right? We are dead heat of summer. you know, for us here in Utah, I don't know what it's like for the rest of you throughout the United States, but here in Utah, we are getting crushed with heat. it is like what is it? Today's ninety seven, ninety-eight, ninety-nine, something like that. a Eric: Yep. Ryan Head: lot of times at the trailhead we're we're dealing with high seventies, low eighties. we had a nice little bit of rain come in the other day and so it was like seventy percent humidity as well as seventy plus degrees and you know you're just you're sweating a lot and and and it it kinda starts to mess with you if you if you want me to be honest. You're just like why am I doing this? And so My question I throw at you, dude, is how do you still stay locked in and and keep that focus when right now, let's be honest, the training block kind of sucks. Eric: Yeah, it's tough. I think what what also kind of makes it a little tougher is you know, I run early mornings. You know, I'm usually at the trailhead around five, five thirty in the morning, and it's still hot, but it's not hot hot. So, you know, you have your hour and a half, two hour run in the morning, and you're feeling the heat, but you know, you're not you're not super roasted yet. So that makes it a little difficult, you know, when actual race day comes. And you're you know you're getting roasted in in the heat. So you know that's why I like to start some of my Saturday, Sunday runs a little later, so I can start to get far more you know sun and heat exposure. But yeah, when we're when we're deep into the training block and the races are getting close, you know, a lot of a lot of the big races are seven, eight, nine, ten weeks away. So you've done a tremendous amount. out of work up to this point. So now it's really focusing on maintaining that fitness, continuing to build that fitness, staying healthy, getting some of that heat training, you know, locking in some of that nutrition and and all that. you know, that you have to to deal with. And then, you know, for me it's it's also this is when I really start thinking about the strategy on race day. Okay, how Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: how do I want to attack this race and then try to mimic that in a lot of my training runs where it you know, if I'm wanna pa you know work on my power hiking or you know work on my slower pace, you know, try to try to get real tired for a run and then the next day try to run on those tired legs. So yeah, it's a really fun, exciting time for a lot of a lot of training right now because we're we're getting close. We're getting ready. Ryan Head: Yeah. Well dude, I I y I love what you said there because you really you went down a lot of really good paths and you've really kind of like opened it up, if you will. Like you you've opened up the closet, if you will, and and we can go down a lot of different, you know, different paths, different topics with what you just said. And I I love that. I think that's important because, you know, the first thing that I I want to to jump at with, you know, kind of what you said was, you know, you were talking about you know, what Like right now we're in the heat and we're trying to figure out how do we do these long runs, how are we staying focused on that? And really kind of trying to lock in that strategy and staying focused, not getting lost on that. You know, one thing that I you know, I I've tried to emphasize this is I I try to find the joy in training. and I'm not saying that every run is fun. I I I but I do try to say like find s find make this somewhat enjoyable. because it it sometimes can get really hard to be like, I don't wanna go do this today, like this isn't gonna be good. And so like I guess my first question I'll pose at you is like, how do you get up or or what what strategies have you put in place for like getting up and just getting to that trail ahead every day. 'cause you honestly, some of the stuff you've taught me over the past six, seven months has been instrumental. And not that it wasn't already there, but it's a good reminder. with just some of the stuff you said to me. But yeah, what what do you do to like really get you make sure you're getting up there and and you're getting those runs in regardless. Eric: Sure. Yeah. And I think I'm feeling a little unusual right now where I'm actually really enjoying the training. Like I'm Ryan Head: Heck yeah, dude. Eric: I've been looking forward to getting up in the morning and and getting out there on the runs, which, you know, that is that is unusual, right? Because half the time Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Eric: it's like, my gosh, here we go again. I gotta get these shoes on and I gotta go. but I think for me, as of late It really is just truly enjoying the experience of running. Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: And getting out there and because it's quiet, it it's the best part of the day for me. You know, because once that run's done, then I gotta hit the shower and then it's boom. Okay, the rest of the day kind of stinks. You know, you're working, you know, you've got a lot of stuff going on with with your jobs or, you know, life or whatever it is. But I also think part of the reason, you know, what what gets me going is as of late, I've varied a lot of my training style and my runs. So Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: you know, some days I'm trying to incorporate a lot more power hiking. You know, some days it's a purely easy run, you know, where I'm just out there enjoying it. Sometimes I like to push the pace. So I have just been all over the map in terms of just varying my different runs. You know, they're not the same all the time. and just incorporating some of those things really helps, you know, get Out there helps you know Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: when that alarm clock goes off at 4:30 every morning, you want to throw the phone at the wall. Well, you just get up, you get your routine, you get your caffeine, you know, you grab a snack, and boom. You just you have to get on autopilot. And I do really well when I'm on autopilot. I love routine, I love consistency, and for me as well. Getting up early and getting it done is just part of the day. if I don't have it, the day's off, you know, fills off. So yeah, for me it's just you know, you just gotta get you just gotta get it done. 'cause if you don't and you put a you put two or three days in a row of not getting it done, well you're you're missing that time, especially now, like we talked about. You know, we're crunch time. You know, we're seven, Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: eight weeks away from big efforts, big races. So you really Can't jeopardize that time. It needs to be out there, needs to be on the trails, and you don't have to go hard every day. You really don't. Like enjoy it. Like if if you're if you're tired or you're not feeling it, well, do go at a super easy pace. if you're feeling it good. I mean, sometimes we're on a run and all of a sudden we we get done, we go, Wow, we pushed the pace today. That was we didn't realize we were pushing the pace. And Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: then there's some mornings where you look at your watch and it's like, man, we're we're not moving very well today. You know, that's usually when I'm leading, when I'm leading the pack. It's Ryan Head: Whatever. Eric: you know, the pace is is all over the map. But yeah, just settling in to different paces, different strategies. that really helps me. Ryan Head: Yeah. Well I love what you say there because the one thing that I feel like you have taught me this year, which I really appreciate, is the value of like power hiking and power walking. I've always been the guy that's like, nope, I gotta I gotta run most of it, like all the time. Like just keep moving, you know, qu you know, non-stop. And one thing, you know, like let's just be honest, like when you're on like the Wasatch 100, you you're not running all of that. Like, you know, I don't care if you're an elite, you're not running all of it. There are times you're you're walking because it's just too technical. And and that's just how it goes. It's just how it is with these types of races. And so learning the value of power hiking and power and and walking and incorporating that into what you're doing I think is just key that's just me personally and and and you've really kind of helped teach teach me that this year because there's been so many times where like for example we've been using Friday as kind of like our easy run if you will before we go do a big effort on a Saturday and a Sunday and just going out for like seven miles And we're doing like a walk run where we're doing like eight miles on eight eight eight minutes on, two minutes walking, and then repeating that over and over and over. I mean, let's be honest, dude. Like our pace sometimes is faster doing that than we are when we're like running the whole time. And it's crazy how like we'll get done and my heart rate's like super low. And I'm like, dude, that felt like a recovery run. And but I find that to be like really good strategy for like for these races because again, I go back to the idea of like, you know, like if I could run for eighty percent of the race, like what could I accomplish, right? And I and again that's overkill, it's probably never gonna happen. I'm never gonna probably do that. But if I was able to feel that good, let's say 30, 40, 50 miles into a race, the way I feel doing that on like our 10 mile run on a Saturday or like on a Friday, like what what could I really do and what could I really accomplish? And like you said, I agree with you. Like I'm not saying go hard every day, but I'm also not saying go easy every day. I'm saying find a good happy balance with that. And whatever that is for you, really execute against that because if you're just going hard every day, it's gonna be really hard for you to get faster. I'm just being one hundred percent honest. If you're like every day I've gotta be getting four thousand feet of vert, I'm just gonna be honest, like it's gonna be tough for you. to to really be successful because yes, you is your body eventually gonna adapt. Yes, you're gonna get there, but at what cost? At what price are you gonna pay to get to that point? you know, I think it's all about finding balance in life. And you know, maybe you run professionally and you don't have to worry about a job and a family and all that other jazz. And if that's you, amazing. But for the rest of us, like myself, I have to worry about a family, I have to worry about a job, I have to worry about my training. I have all this other stuff. And so I can't go out and do 4,000 feet of vert every day. I it's just not it's not gonna happen. And so I'm gonna get my miles, but I'm also gonna get my vert. and really on those big days on weekends, when I have big vert days, I'm gonna hit them and I'm gonna hit it hard so that I get I get my miles in and I get my the feet that I need. I don't know. What's your thoughts on that? Eric: Yeah, and I've been really toying and playing with the idea of the importance of power walking, power hiking. Like like we we know that that's part of the ultra scene. But Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: understanding the difference between, you know, the death march and a power hike and getting good and efficient power hiking on tired legs. That is really the equalizer or the separator. Because raw speed on anything above a 50k is irrelevant. It's completely irrelevant for me. If you're an elite, Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: it's a different story, that's a different conversation. But raw speed doesn't do me any good. But a consistent flow of moving efficiently, that's the separator. Especially mid-race, mile 50, 60. 60, 70, 80, you know, when that death march kicks in. And for me, the run-walk method is my favorite way to run. It's almost what I do exclusively. where I do the eight eight two. That's my method. I've I've played around with a lot of different you know run walk times. But for me it's it's great. It's a 10-minute increment, so it's easy to keep track of. I run for eight, I walk for two. And now even instead of a recovery walk, it's more of a power hike for that two minutes. So I still try to keep moving. But what's fun for me is the run-walk method is almost like a pick your own adventure because the first eight minutes I can run hard. If I want to run hard for three three of those ten segments in a row, great. if the next one I'm tired, well, I can take a nice little easy run for eight minutes. I do that a couple times, power hike, and then maybe the fifth time my my run comes up, well, maybe I get to push the pace because I'm feeling good. Because I struggle with trying to maintain a pace throughout an entire run. Like if I have to go on a 10-mile run and I have to run the whole time, I I don't want to do it. But the the run walk method. For me, is is huge. And like you mentioned, you know, sometimes we we get done with those Friday run walk runs, and the pace sometimes is faster than it was yesterday when we ran the whole thing. Or I've also found that my pace my overall paces are far more consistent. So if I look back at 30 runs that I ran walked. the paces are very similar and close to each other versus, you know, running hard, you know, trying to run hard or running slow and you know, where your paces are all up and down, you know, where they're your overall average is a minute or two away from each other. But that's also really helped me is that if I can get more of my runs consistently close together on that average pace, well then now I start understanding of what I'm I'm more capable of out there. Where I'm like, okay, I on a trail, I'm starting to get really comfortable with the 1230 average, you know, with Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: all the you know evol all the hills, the up and downs, and that seems like a great pace for me. So knowing that, being able to then figure that on race day what I'm comfortable with versus thinking where where my paces would be all over the map. Maybe it was an 11 minute mile and then it was a 14 minute mile and it was a 13 minute mile on the average. That is harder for me to understand how that's gonna translate on race day because if I'm out on a hundred miler and I'm running an eleven minute mile because I think I've can do that, well, I'm gonna learn real quick that oops, you shouldn't have been running an eleven minute mile at any point on an ultra. You know, whereas now I can go, okay, a 13, you know, minute mile should be great. That's where I can Now I'm trying to understand, okay, what's my power walk pace? What should that be? You know, cause your regular walk is a lot slower than a power walk. And if you compound that over a hundred miles, that could be a significant difference in your time. I mean, it could be hours. I've I've run the numbers in my head so many times that you go, geez, if I would have power hiked that 20 mile section on that race, I probably could have saved an hour versus a death march or whatever Ryan Head: Yep. Eric: it is. So yeah, it's just it's just been interesting this last like month or so, just really finally the you know the light bulb finally went off was like, wait a minute, okay, you're you're missing the power hiking aspect of this. Where, you know, obviously you're you're gonna try to run as much as possible, but these long races, you're just not gonna run 80, 90, 100% of it. You know, if you could run 50% of it and power hike really well for the other 50%, you you're you're gonna knock it out of the park. I mean it's just it's just how it's gonna be. Ryan Head: Yeah. I mean and you make a really good point right there. I like that you say that. Like just imagine if you're able to run half of a hundred miler and then power hike Even if you power hiked only 20% of it and you walked the other 30%, what could you accomplish? Like you you're you're gonna have a pretty fast time. Like, because right, if you think okay, half the race is gonna be up and the other half is gonna be down, and maybe there's some level parts here and there and what have you, imagine being able to run 50% of that power hike. Yeah, I mean you're gonna crush this thing. It's gonna be it's gonna be insane. Couple couple thoughts that I had just as you were talking, the first thing that comes to my mind is When you were talking about how you're like, when I'm doing this walk-run method, you're like, I get more consistent paces and times than I do at other moments, right? And the one thing that hit me really hard when you were saying that is I'm like, you're building consistency and also discipline. Because like when we've been doing this and we've been practicing this practicing this this method, what happens is is, you know, we will be like, you know. You'll be like, okay, right now, we'll be like, okay, right now at this point, you're you're we're walking, right? And we'll walk it. Even if it's like downhill and we're like, dang, man, like this is a time we should be hitting this hard. Like we can run. But then all of a sudden, right, when it's like, okay, we're back on, even if it's a hill, like we're we're running it and we're pushing it, and it's like, Eric: Yes. Ryan Head: like, man. But it's really cool because it makes us discipline. It's really disciplined us to be like, okay, not It the idea in our head has gotten out that, hey, every time it's downhill we run, every time it's flat you're you're coasting, and every time it's uphill you're walking. Like it's getting that idea out of our head to be like, no, that's not how you do this. Let's let's let's be a little bit more like disciplined and be like, hey, no, sometimes you've got to run those uphills, even if it's a slight uphill. I'm not saying, you know, you're running a 30, 40% grade, but you know, if it's if it's a five to ten percent grade, hey, we're running it. So I I really like that you say that. And the other thought that comes to my head when you're saying all this, and I know this is a story that you've shared with me multiple times, is the dude that you ran across at Wasatch last year. in 2025 who was walking this thing. tell tell our listeners a little bit more about that because I have always found that story to be just absolutely fascinating Eric: Yeah. Yeah, it was actually a couple years ago. wasn't Ryan Head: Okay. Eric: last year, it was a couple years ago. But and I forget his name. I'd have to look it up. He's a legend. I'm I'm sure people know who this guy is just by his description. But he was he's probably in his I mean he might be eighty now. because I think he was, you know, seventy-five, seventy-six, somewhere in there. and I remember at one point of the race, I could see this old guy. way ahead of me. And he was he was he was power hiking, but he i his stride was beautiful. I mean, he was moving. I mean, you could tell this guy had been out doing these things. And I come and I'm I I run past him and he says something nice like, hey, keep it up, you know, whatever. And I, you know, separate, don't see him for a little bit. Well then sure enough, here he comes and he's power hiking. And we spend about an hour together out there on the trails. And he talked a lot about, he's like, I power hike this whole thing. He's like, if you stick with me, we'll get to the finish line. No problem. And he he's done, I think, probably a hundred ultra marathons. I think he's one of the oldest guys that's completed Western states at the time. And and he just I I was so impressed with how well he was moving. Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: And at one point, we were power hiking about a 14 and a half minute pace. And I could not keep up. I mean, I was working at a 14 and a half minute pace. I mean we were we were deep in the race and he was fresher than can be. And at one point I I I lost him. I got dropped and I never saw the guy again. I mean he was gone. Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: and part of his strategy, you know, if you are gonna be power hiking, you know, 100% of it, you know, your aid station strategy is gonna be quite a bit different. You know, he says, hey, I'm in and out. Number one rule, you can't sit down. You're in and out, it's three to five minutes, you get what you need and you go. And he wasn't joking because we came into an aid station together and three to five minutes, he was gone. And I I Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: was like, man, this guy, this guy's he's this is legit. I stayed, Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: I got my stuff, had a few more snacks, whatever. And then I eventually caught up to him and was like, Hey, you weren't joking about these aid stations. You you were in and out. He's Yep, that's what you gotta do. And he just kept power hiking away. And I've been reflecting on that experience. Quite a bit over this last couple of months. It just keeps coming up in my head. I'm like, man, remember that guy? You couldn't even keep up with power hiking. And so I've really tried to incorporate that this year to be a great power hiker. And I even reflect again on a race that I had years ago, which was one of my best 50-mile attempts, where I I power hiked. a r a big big section of the race and I remember passing people, I mean I probably passed twenty or thirty people in this ten mile stretch of, you know, the death marchers. You know, you you you get in that death high that death march walk And I was feeling really good and I was power hiking. And I just reflected on that thinking, man, you saved so much time by doing that. and then incorporating in some of those lighter paces when you are running. But yeah, that guy, it was incredible. I mean, in the way, the way he was moving, you could tell this guy was a great ultra runner, a great power hiker. And I think that's just a really important thing to consider when we are training doing these long distances is that, you know, just moving as efficiently as possible on tired legs. And, you know, for us guys, you know, not you, but me, slower guys, you know, this is what could be the biggest separator for us when we are in the back of the pack, middle of the pack, where, you know, the guys that have raw speed or are concentrating on that raw speed and they're way ahead of you. Well, you might power hike right past them at mile 50 or mile 60, Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: you know, because you don't have to keep up with everybody at the beginning of the race. You have a hundred miles to efficiently move and do that with the the most controlled effort you can so that you can, cross that finish line in whatever goal time you're looking to get. Ryan Head: Yeah. Well, a couple of things to add into that. So I and I could be wrong by who we may be thinking of different people, but I looked it up while you were talking because I was like, I've gotta find this guy's name 'cause me and you always talk about him. And I think his name is Nicholas Bassett. And I don't know if I I swear it's Nick. So I I Eric: Yes, that Yep. Ryan Head: did I did my service work with Nick and he he everything you said and everything you've you've talked about, i he did this. And and it's insane. Like he would always talk about, hey, go slow. You know, stay consistent. Power hike. Like you need to be doing that. And Nick is from Wyoming, I think Cheyenne, Wyoming area. I just looked him up on on previous finishes of Wasuch and everything. Awesome dude, just an amazing human. But this guy f has it figured out when it comes to power hike. And like you said, he's he's older now. Don't know if he's ever gonna do Wasuch again. It I don't know if I mean maybe that ship has sailed for him. But one example he's been to so many of us. I remember talking to John Grobins about him at the finish line in 2024. John was just like, Nick is one of the best people you'll ever meet, and he is all about helping other people get across that finish line. And what an example he set for you. So I've one, that's just that's amazing. The next thought that I have is you know, just along with what you've been talking about, and and I've shared this a few times, I think, on, you know, pat previous episodes of the of the podcast, but My very first marathon was Ogden Marathon in twenty eighteen. And I still remember getting my behind kicked by these older ladies. And again, I I I'm just it's just impressive. I'm not making fun of them. I'm not, you know, any of that stuff. I'm not, you know, trying to pick on them, what have you. But these older ladies were doing the walk run method for for the Ogden Marathon. And they obliterated me. Like, I remember I was in the canyon, probably like mile 19, 20, and they were truly doing the walk one. And I remember thinking, I am not losing to them. Like, there's no way. And I think it was like about two miles after that, didn't see them any longer. And I was cooked. I was roasted. So this just goes back to what you're saying about like we going fast always is probably not the right answer. Like, especially on ultras, finding a good strategy that works. for you and helps you just pace yourself and keep yourself in a really good spot because redlining over and all and staying at a red line effort on an ultra is is not gonna work maybe it'll work on an on a marathon a road mare marathon but ultras It's probably not it it's not gonna work. You're you're gonna struggle. Maybe for elites it works, but again, for us regular dudes, it's probably not gonna work. You wanna find a good balance. and and again, just like Luke Richards just shared, which I love, you know, you gotta get comfortable with being uncomfortable, and I a hundred percent agree with that. But redlining having your heart rate over one seven, you know, one sixty, one seventy the whole for a whole race, you're not gonna make it far. You're you're just not. You're gonna struggle. Eric: Yeah. Ryan Head: It's gonna become a very very tough race for you. So it it's just interesting. It's fascinating here, you know, talking through this because, you know, as we're getting closer, people are starting to really think about how are they gonna attack these races? And and again, like we said, what like way we kick this off is we hope you're you know our listeners are starting to think about okay, how am I gonna accomplish you know my 50k, my fifty miler, you know, my hundred miler and what what strategies I'm gonna implement. And you know, especially if you're like this is my first one I just want to finish. Well, you know, we hope you're paying attention because this is this is really good information and and I think it's gonna help you you get across that finish line. But yeah, any thoughts with that? Eric: Yeah, and what I'll say, you know, the perception with running is you're supposed to just be running all the time. And you're supposed to be running hard all the time. And I think the game changer for me with the run-walk method specifically was, you know, I was always like, well, okay, I don't want to tell anybody I'm walking for two minutes because you're not supposed to walk on your run and my gosh. But one day I said, you know what? No, this is the strategy. This is not a walk, it is part of the strategy because I'm still moving, I'm still progressing. And I'm getting faster, runs are consistent, all those things that we've talked about. But when you have that shift that that is the strategy, that is what I'm going to do to get to the finish line. And also if you know you are somebody that's tackling your first, your second, your third, and you think that, man, I've got to be running harder. I've got to be getting faster. I've got to be doing all these things. It's like, well, no, you might need to just slow it down. because I like to kind of think about it as you've gotta run slower for longer, and you gotta power hike faster for longer. And that recipe I think is gonna work. I mean, I'm I'm I'm putting it into practice, and I'll put it into practice in these these races. So, but yeah, if it if it is the strategy. That's gonna help with the idea of controlling that effort, you know, working on that power hiking, and you know, just progressing efficiently on those tired legs. Ryan Head: Yeah. And and I guess that's kind of the summary that we throw at, you know, our listeners here is really if there's one thing to take away from you know kind of the first you know half of this this podcast episode is is really incorporate power hiking into your training regimen. You know, depending on what race you have coming up this fall, you know, if you're like, man, I you know, especially if it's a trail race, right? If it's a road marathon, totally different idea. Make sure you're following whatever plan it is. But if you're like, okay, my my I'm running the Bear 100, right? And I've got twenty, twenty one thousand feet of vert, well, you know, if if you're if you're not an elite like 95% of the population or 95% of the running population then you're gonna probably want to incorporate power hiking into your training program and again you're gonna feel like just what like Eric said you're gonna feel like you're not doing a good job I can tell you right now especially if you love running and you feel like okay I I just want to go hard all the time you're gonna straw you're gonna struggle at first you're gonna be like this sucks like I'm not working that hard my heart rate's 110, 100, whatever. But I promise it's gonna pay dividends on race day because when you're at mile, like Eric was just saying, mile 60, 70 in the middle of the night, and you're just like, my gosh, like I just, you know, I I am like I'm passing all these people because I've been practicing this this power hiking. All of a sudden the game's gonna change, and all of a sudden you're gonna be hitting mile 70 at hour 24, 23, and you're like, dude, like we're looking like we're gonna have a really good finish. You know, the perfect example of this is is Nate Allred. Nate finished with a a 30 hour finish at Bear last year, and he really spent most of his year just train training power hiking because he dealt with some injuries and and he talks about this in his episode. I think he was episode number three. but he talks a lot about this where he's like I really focus and perfect Did power hiking. Now Nate has long legs. He his his stride is like one and a half, almost two of mine. But regardless, he power he perfected this and he tells me, he's like, Ryan, I spent most of that race power hiking, and he got a 30-hour finish, and he he beat so many of us. And again, in the end, it doesn't matter who who beats who, but he beat. He was above like the fifty percentile at Bear because he was able to accomplish this and just impressive. He beat a lot of our friends, a lot of people we know, because he perfected that and was able to do it. So I know it may sound like foreign to a lot of you out there. You're probably like, these guys are nuts. I'm not gonna be power hiking, I'm not gonna perfect it. I I'm telling you right now, if you learn how to utilize it and you and you add it to your arsenal of of tricks out there that you can use on on your hundred mile for your ultra, your fifty K, your fifty mile or whatever, Could be a game changer. Could be a game changer. Just my own thoughts. Eric: Yeah. Well and when I listened to Nate's episode. that was one of the biggest takeaways that I took was like, yeah, power hiking. And then you you really realize it when that sweet old grandma comes flying by you at mile 70, and she's having a great time and she's been moving good because she's probably been power hiking, and you're gonna think to yourself, How did this sweet old grandma? Just smoke me. You know, I've been passed by more grandmas on these races than I want to admit. You know, they take your soul out there. But then, and and because you're macho, you think, well, I've got to get faster, I've got to run faster, I've got to work on my raw speed. And that's important too, and you're gonna do that. But the separator again becomes how efficient have you been with all the strategies of running hard, running light, power hiking. doing all those things. So it's just been a fun, a fun little training block for me where I've never really incorporated a lot of that. into what I've been doing. and I also like to tell people too, hey, these are just my views. if this doesn't resonate with anybody, it doesn't. But if it does, I all I know is that it's been working for with for me in such a positive way that I'm loving it. I'm loving the strategy. I feel good. The body feels good. You know, I can go on a big long Saturday effort. and I'm not as beat up, you know, the day after. you know, because usually, you know, you throw in a 20 miler on the weekend and you wake up on Sunday and you're like, boy, I am sore. Well now that soreness is is totally different, where I can get right back after it, you know, on the Monday or whatever it is. Ryan Head: Yeah. Well and and again I love that you say that because I can't tell you how many times in previous years, you know, every Monday through Friday I was going hard every every time, every run, and then I do my big efforts on Saturday and Sunday or Friday and Saturday, depending on you know my schedule and whatnot. But I remember just being destroyed for my long efforts and being like, my gosh, I've gone so hard. But ever since we've incorporated and we've been a lot more strategic this this training block. I I and this is what I meant to say earlier. I am now faster than I have been in years past. My knees are healthier. Now there's been some other changes I've incorporated and I've been doing a lot of strength training and you know all that aside. I'm faster than Because I've learned how to go slower. And how many times have me and you had this conversation? Eric: Yes. Ryan Head: Learn to go slow so you can go faster. And and and when you're strategic and you're smart about your approach, this is where the game starts to change. This is where you're like, I get it. I get why some of these elites are like, I'm doing way more miles than these elites. And and they're crushing me by ten you know 10 hours on a race like how is that even possible and and i'm doing their same pace well sometimes your your body the way it's made whatever you're just not you're not gonna be them so you need to be strategic you need to play to your strengths you need to play to the things that you can be good at and things that you're not well you still gotta work on them but really sharpen the saw on those things that you can be good at and that you can utilize and I think most people can be pretty good at power hiking and recovering and allowing your body to heal up because as I as we have been doing these recovery runs on Fridays and sometimes on Mondays, I've noticed that my pace compared to last year, my pace is doing this. I am going faster in general. And I'm like, okay, like there there's some reasons behind this and and it's definitely showing. So it's just been really cool. It's been really fun to see. And so, anyways, we beat the horse. to to death here about power hiking. I think it's important. You know, the next topic I kind of want to jump into, and it really kind of leads into what Eric's going to be doing this weekend is, you know, Eric, what's your thoughts on how do you strategize for races? And like, you know, as you're as you're getting ready to do Wasch 100 this year and then a month, month and a half later, whatever it is, you're gonna be doing Havelina. What are you doing to understand how do you attack nutrition? How do you attack hydration? How often are you eating? How often are you making sure you're taking electrolyte? How often are you practicing this walk-run method? Like, what do you do to to do to actually make these things happen and be prepared for that? And and simulate those situations. Eric: Yeah. well one thing that's that's actually kind of nice about the the run walk, running for eight, walking for two, is that during those two minutes I'm always trying to drink liquid. So I know that, you know, every ten minutes I'm I'm taking in some fluid. And I think one of the biggest things that I've learned this year when it comes to nutrition, and I I say this a lot to people, it's it it's not what you're what you need to eat or what to eat, it's what you're not eating. So Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: you just you just eat what you can. I mean, eat what you like to eat. Try to eat Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: everyday regular foods. You know, Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: if if you eat fruit snacks all day, well make sure you're eating fruit snacks on the run. Don't just Show up and go, well, they tell me I gotta have a goo. well, if you don't like goose, find something else. Find some applesauce. Because those are things that we're we normally eat on a day-to-day basis. And then race day comes and we kind of introduce all these foreign things. I mean, we're eating them during training and whatnot, but you're not eating them at the quantity that you normally are. You know, Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: if you show up to a hundred miler and all of a sudden you you're eating. 50, 60 goos over the course of time. Well, we're we're not doing that on a day-to-day basis. Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: but also the biggest thing for me has been I do best when I really control the effort, and then that allows me to take in the nutrition. way it's supposed to it's supposed to work for me. The moment Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: I get out of whack on effort, I'm pushing too hard, then I for me it's like it doesn't matter what what I'm gonna do. You know, I I I'm not gonna be able to eat or take on what I need to take on because now my body is saying, hey pal, we've we've got to work on getting you right before I'm even considering using this goo or fruit snack or whatever. That you just ate. I don't want that in my system right now because you're overheated, your heart rate's been too high for too long. You know, I've got to get, you know, your body's got to get you back on that normal state. So but then when it does come to races, you know, I always have the A race in mind. It's like whatever it is, you know, my A race is typically Javelina, followed by Wasatch in that order. but then I'd like to incorporate some of these other 50Ks, you know. some marathons, but those become simply test runs. I like to go into those races a little fatigued. I typically don't taper when it's a mid-season race. I mean, I will to some degree. I mean, I'm not trying to show up, you know, to speed goat or whatever, dog tired. You gotta be smart. But I do want to go into that race a little bit tired. So I can so I can try to, you know, simulate the back half or the middle of a hundred miler. and then of course using that time to get familiar with taking all the gels and the candy and the you know whatever it is that you gotta put in. But and I like to incorporate a lot of different brands. You know, whether it's Martin Precision, you know, whatever's on the course, you know, having a big variety seems to really work for me. You know, if I just throw, you know, a hundred Martin Gels in my, you know, my vest, well, those might stop working at mile twenty. Well then I'm I'm in trouble. But Ryan Head: Yep. Sure. Eric: if I got a nice little menu of pulling out, this is a new flavor, you know, it that that works for me. I do think I I perform or respond well to just water. It's Ryan Head: Yeah, awesome. Eric: what I've been kind of incorporating this year. You know, I'm getting so sick of the All the sport drinks, you know, the the salt drinks, it's just they're they're getting harder and harder to stomach, just the taste and the fatigue of it. and now I really try to incorporate, you know, one flask with, you know, some sort of salt drink, and then you know, straight up water, but making sure that I'm I'm getting equal parts of those, that seems I've I've I've responded pretty well to that. Versus you know, hey, I've gotta have, you know. whatever it is, you know, the whatever the drinks are, tailwind or whatever. You know, if you think you're gonna survive on that the whole time, there's there's just no way. you're gonna get you're gonna get some sort of fatigue or your body's just gonna say, hey, this is this is enough. Like you know, I need something else. But with that water, you know, incorporating a lot more just straight water has has been nice. Ryan Head: Yeah. Well I like you say I like that you say that because for me, even as was starting to get to the end of I I remember on day two of the Scout Mountain one hundred this year, there in Idaho, I it was a hot day, right? So I was just chugging water left and right. And I remember when I picked up Nate Alred there at mile seventy seven, I was done drinking gnarly. That's what I had in my bottle. And I can't remember what they had in there, you know, what their sports drink that they had there, but I didn't want to try something new. I wasn't like I you know, kind of that rule of thumb is don't try anything new that you haven't tried because you don't know how your stomach's gonna handle it. And so I kind of started doing what you did, right? Like I was like, you know, I just want water. I don't want any more gnarly, I don't want any drink mixes, I don't want no sugary drink. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drink water and when I know I and then I'm gonna take my salt tablets, my my electrolyte, my salt six stuff. I'm gonna take that when I know I need electrolytes. And I'm telling you it worked perfect for me. It worked perfect. I'm not gonna say that works for everybody. Everybody's body's different. but for me, it worked. It worked really well. And so that's the one thing I would be I would caution people is like, you know, if you're just like, man, drinking the sugary, you know, fifty grams of sugar drink every hour and you're just feeling like garbage, maybe that's not the answer. Maybe it is water, like you're saying, and then mixing in those electrolytes. and then making sure you're getting carbs and calories other ways and getting a little bit of protein in there too. Find ways to do that. Get creative. and then you know what they just second what you're saying. I I'm loving using a lot of these races that I have lined up here for the next you know month and a half before we walk into Wasatch. I'm the same way. I really don't race them because to me they're just an opportunity. to say, okay, like, is everything working? Is my is my electrolytes working? Is my hydration working? Is my is the food I'm taking in the nutrition? Is it working well with my stomach? Did I get GI issues? Is there something not feeling right? I it's the gear I'm trying, right? I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be wearing the same shoes for for the race for Wasatch. Are the shoes feeling good? Is there anything weird getting rubbed wrong? Are the socks working? Is the shirts that I'm wearing? Is the hoodie that I you I wear hoodies when I do my races. Is the hoodie where it working for me? Does it feel weird? Should I not do it? Should I just do sunscreen instead for for the race? and really practicing and getting it like a good baseline and be like, okay, I feel ready for what we're coming. Like a lot of times that's when I'll I'll pull out my poles and I'll use my poles for a good portion of it. Cause I'm like, okay, do I feel like I've got the pull my pull strategy down for being able to climb and also the run downhill if you know my legs start to hurt pretty bad. I'm using these types of races, like the Skyline 55K. that they have there in in in Eden, Utah. Like this is the perfect race for it. It's usually about month, month and a half out from Wasach and Bear. It is the race to test this out. I know you have Speed Goat this weekend. it's another opportunity for you to try you know test out these climbing legs that we that you've been working on that you have developed over the past you know three four months of you know every all the runs we've been doing all the climbs we've been doing. I'm excited to see how you do. now again, am I expecting you to be racing it? No, I don't think so. I'm expecting you to to try to use a strategy that or to practice your strategy for race day because really the race day that's gonna be the most important thing for you. Is like, okay, I really want to make sure that I feel good for Wasetch, for Havelina, that everything is really dialed in. I think that's that's the key for for most people, and that's how I'd be looking at that. And really use these races for that. I mean, yes, are they fun to run these races? And if that's your A race for the year, awesome. Like you said, it line up and say, okay, what are what are my A race this year? What's my B race this year? And then is it sprinkled with a bunch of C races? Ask yourself, does this race really mean that much? Because as I always like to say to my athletes, you know, if you're run if you're racing a 5k and you're like, I really want to set a PR, is that your A race for the year? Or is that just a fun race that you're doing and you're really trying to you know, PR the marathon or you're trying to hit this hundred miler because going out and going crazy on this 5k and then you twist your ankle, pull a hamstring, whatever it is, well now that's gonna set you back. And now we got problems. Now we got bigger problems. So really, you know, use you know use your noggin if you will to think, okay, what am I doing here? What's the goal? What's the process? And really what am I trying to accomplish? and using that. Use it. I mean that's that's what these races of four and I think that's the thing that I'd always tell most people is is you know even though it's fun to run and it's fun to do these races and all that, be strategic. Think through these things. If you're thinking, and you're like, okay, I'm gonna use this race for this purpose or I'm gonna use this race for that purpose, be strategic and and you're gonna accomplish great things on the races that really do matter. Eric: Yeah, and I think too, you know, having some of these races that are, you know, you you throw in it to really learn and value the experience of the race, you know, because like Speed Goats coming up on Saturday, Speed Goat's ridiculous. It is a ridiculous race. It is it is not fun, but the scenery is spectacular. Ryan Head: Heck yeah. Eric: So you get up there, you get up on that peak and you go, Whoa. I mean, I you you can't believe the the scenery that's that's up there. And it just gives you an opportunity to go, okay, this is why We're up here doing this because it is beautiful. And I don't have any sort of pressure that I've self-induced pressure to perform at whatever pace or time or whatever. Because it's no, look, I'm I'm locking in the strategy, locking in some nutrition, locking in, you know, the A-race pace or the A-race strategy. You just get to use that because and it just helps me because I'm a party pace kind of guy. I like to be back there just having a good time strolling along and it's just it's just the experience of it that that I crave and want to be out there and that that that that's just me. I mean you know the earlier days the earlier races when you put so much pressure on your shoulders that well I've got to do this in X amount of hours I got to have this average pace I got to get to this checkpoint at this time and nine out of ten that plan ghost to crap in a you know, early on in the race. Well then now you gotta fight, well shoot, now I'm two minutes behind pace and what am I gonna do? I've gotta I've gotta run harder here to get caught back up and you know, and then if you cross the finish line an hour or two behind your, you know, goal pace, then there's that feeling of disappointment of, man, I you know, I was so slow, I should've run faster and I don't wanna do that anymore. Th those days are done. I like Ryan Head: Yep. Yep. Eric: getting across that finish line with the old grandmas, you know, with all the the regular folk back there, just having a good time and enjoying that experience is ultimately what it's about for me. Ryan Head: Yeah. I love that. And you know it Kind of reverse the quote that I've said I think with you before on our previous episode. but I'll reverse it here is you're you're sacrificing hours to gain minutes, which is not what you want to do, right? We want to sacrifice minutes to gain hours. And if you're asking yourself, okay, well Ryan, what does that mean? When you're like, looking at your pace and you're saying to yourself, my gosh, I just get up Bear Canyon and it it's It sucks. Like it's not fun. you get up that and you're looking at your pace and you're like, my overall pace now is like 27 minutes per mile, right? And that's for all of us regular people. For the elites, you're probably faster. The Cheppes of the world, they're they're a lot faster than us. But for the regulars, you're like, you're like, holy crap, I'm at 27 minutes, and you're like, dude, I gotta go, I gotta go. And and you start sacrifice hours to gain minutes. You're like, okay, I'm gonna gain a few minutes here. And when you do that and you start going at a nine minute pace, you're doing an eight-minute pace, a seven minute pace, running down from Francis Peak, down to Groben, and you're just hauling to be I gotta do that, I gotta get there as quick as possible. Well, you now you're you're sacrificing hours because what's happening is you're not thinking about what your body's gonna be like at mile 70, 60, 80. You're not thinking about that. You're like, nope, I gotta get back on track, I gotta get back on track. And you do that, and you're and you're gonna cost yourself the race so you're gonna you're putting yourself at risk here again you're gonna want to reverse this like I said you're gonna want to sacrifice minutes to gain hours so what I mean by that is hey you know what if right now my pace is a little bit slower A okay. Lean into that party pace like you're talking about. Eric: Yes. Ryan Head: Because if you do, what's gonna happen is is later down the path you're gonna feel good. You're not gonna feel burnt out. You're not gonna be like, well I got back up to the pace I wanted to be, but I sacrificed so much to get there. Now my stores are completely devastated and I'm only twenty miles into this race and I got all these problems going on and we got all these issues. I mean it's just like my it's like my old running coach Carl Meltzer used to say, He's like Ryan, you know, first twenty miles of Wasatch, you need to feel like you didn't even start the race yet. You really you shouldn't. If you feel like you're already starting to hurt, like if you're going up Bear Canyon and you can already feel the lactic acid and you're just like, my gosh, I'm hurting, you you've gone too hard. You've gone too hard for how hard you've trained and for what your effort you want to put in. So I've always kind of taken Eric: Yeah. Ryan Head: solace in that. But yeah, you what's your thoughts on that, dude? Eric: Well, and I think there needs to be more of an emphasis on having a negative split on a race. Ryan Head: Yeah. Sure. Eric: And when you do that and you start as slow as you can without, you know, sacrificing too much. to finish the race faster, I think the experience is enhanced, you know, when you really focus on that. Because a lot of times every single race I always have a pause it's always pause, you know, the the first half's always faster than the than the back half. And I really want to toy with the idea of really flipping that. Where it's like, Ryan Head: Sure. Eric: all right, this first fifty miles, I only I what is the bare minimum I need to do to get to where I need to get? And then that back half when you're probably feeling better because you you dialed it in. Well now you gonna move a little quicker, make up some time, probably pass a ton of people. And just I I think crossing that finish line with with that could really just enhance that overall experience. Ryan Head: Yeah. I and and I think you're you're onto something there for sure. I think, like you said, it when you're doing these races and you're like, Okay, I gotta get to Lambs Canyon, Lambs Canyon is mile forty-seven, almost forty-eight of the Wasatch 100, right? And you're like, Okay, I've gotta push. but if you're pushing too hard and you're dealing with the hottest part of the day, when you leave sessions left off on Wasatch, it is eleven almost twelve miles of just exposure. some gnarly climbs and and it's gonna kick you in the teeth. Like it's it's gonna hurt quite a bit. But if you tell yourself, okay I'm gonna be smart about this. I'm gonna be strategic. I'm gonna keep a good pace. But let's say you say, you know what? I'm gonna follow the eight to two, eight to method. I'm gonna do eight minutes of running, two minutes of walking, and I'm gonna make sure that I feel good through all this. Well, you're gonna get to you're gonna get feeling pretty dang good. And all of a sudden you're like, okay, like we're in a pretty good spot here. And then again, continue to follow that method. Well, you're gonna get to lambs, and most likely You're gonna be like, okay, now I think I can push and finish this strong. And right, obviously everybody's body is different. Everybody's dealing with nutrition, hydration in their own ways. And you're like, okay, there's there's all these factors. But I dare say, just echoing what Eric's been going off of, you know, if you if you keep your effort relatively easy And you tell yourself, okay, like the goal is to feel really good and then push on the second half. Well, you might negative split. And if you can pull that off, well, that's where the magic's gonna happen. Because a lot of times you're gonna be in the cooler weather on the second half of the race. it's gonna be night, I get it. But it's gonna be cooler. You're gonna have the sunrise in the morning, obviously it sucks sometimes being at mile 80, mile ninety, but There's always that part of each race where you're Okay, I'm gonna finish this. And you get kind of that endorphin rush again. You're like, let's go. Let's just push. Eric: Sure. Ryan Head: Let's just make it happen. And so I think there's something there to be s I I think there is something there, like what you're saying. And I I really like that idea of being like, you know, almost in a way, let's negative split this. Let's let's make the second half faster than the first half. You can pull that off. Good things are gonna happen for sure. I love it, dude. I think that's amazing. Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, cool, dude. I I've loved where this has gone. You know, kind of kind of go to the very kind of last bit of what I want to talk about today and and then I'll turn it over to you, dude. If there's any topics that you wanted to chat about that you feel like is really good as people are preparing for race day and that they're they're getting ready for their races, you know, the big thing that I want to talk about is the mental side of it. And and you've been touching on it little bit. And the big thing that I would say to most people is, you know, there there is comfort in knowing you put the work in. And I think so many times we get really nervous as the race is coming up and you're like, man, did I do enough? And and heaven knows I'm I'm guilty of this as much as anybody. I mean, I was a space cadet when it came to the Scout Mountain there, but for good reason. I had some I had some days that I didn't think I was pushing as hard as I wanted to, especially again Vert. But there there is something to be said if you're doing the work and you're getting the miles. And so what I would say to anybody right now, if you're like I'm starting to question if I'm gonna be ready for it. Well, then I would say either reach out to someone who's maybe done a hundred miler before, reach out to either Eric or myself, reach out to some or reach out to a running coach and ask, like, hey, you know, if I gotta pay you a hundred bucks for a month of coaching, whatever, am I on the right path right now? am I where I need to be to get across that finish line? Heck, use AI to ask, you know. Have I been doing enough miles? Have I been doing enough for whatever? and and get get a little bit of of solace there because I think too many times we get so stressed out with actual race, whereas really the race should be the celebration. That should be the party. That should be like, hey, you did all the work. Like you did all those early mornings, you did all the not fun stuff. Now is just time to just enjoy. Like go out and have a fun time. you've done the work, just just go execute now. And I think that's the part where I talk about so much with mental, the mental side, because I think it's easy to get in our own heads and then be like, I don't think I can do this. Well, if you've done the work and you've been just executing, it's just time to go. It's just time to go. It's time to go do it. And and feel confident that you've done the work. I don't know, man. What's your thoughts with that? Eric: Yeah, I I would say that if you're if somebody if if you have that thought of, no, have I done enough, odds are you've done enough. because Ryan Head: Yeah, a hundred percent. Eric: that that that's kind of where you want to be. If you're going, boy, I want I want three or four more weeks to do more, okay, you're ready. Because if you haven't done enough. You're gonna be able to answer that question and go, yeah, I'm I'm in trouble. I have not done enough. Like you you'll you'll know. because you're always gonna have that thought, you know. I mean, you're always gonna want to do more, you're always gonna want three or four more weeks of training before the big day. But you know, just if you've consistently put in the effort, then you're gonna be you're gonna surprise yourself. And I think on the mental side of things too, it's and I just learned this the other day, you know, of type one fun or type two fun, where Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: you know, type one fun is going on a roller coaster. Super fun for two minutes and then you get off and the experience is over and you never think about it again. Well Ultra running is type two fun where it's miserable the whole time, but the experience lasts forever. Ryan Head: Mm-hmm. Eric: And if you have that idea in your head that, okay, this next 30, 35, 36 hours, it's it's gonna suck. I mean, I don't know what to tell you. It you're gonna have great moments, but it's it's gonna be brutal. And if you know that. then I think the experience gets better. Ryan Head: Yep. Hundred percent. Eric: At least that is for me. You know, I remember taking my boy on a on a camping trip or a you know a a backpacking trip and you know he was young and we got these big old backpacks and you know right when we started at the trailhead I got them all together and says, Hey, listen, this next seven, eight hours of hiking, nobody's having fun. I'm not gonna be having fun, you're not having fun, I know you're not gonna have any fun, but when we get to the campsite and we get we We get the tents out, we get the fishing poles out, we get this fire cooking, you're gonna love it. And this experience that we're gonna have over this next three or four days is gonna last with you forever. And that's what an Ultra is. You we get to do this yearly, as many times as you can. And if you really lock into that type one or type two fun in this case, that really helps me. You know, just being ultra prepared in your mind that yeah. 90% of this day is gonna stink. It's gonna be hot, I'm gonna be tired, I'm gonna be whatever it is. But boy, you cross that finish line, you get a nice home cooked meal, you know, whatever it is, you take a shower, go to sleep, you wake up and it's like, wow, okay, incredible. That and those experiences last forever. So a combination of that, if you're doubting if you're ready, that means you're ready. If you want more time, you're ready. And then just lock into that type two fun. Ryan Head: Yep. I love it, dude. Love it, love it, love it. I think that's so important. So so important. Cause I think we just forget to have fun with all this. And and like you said, you're gonna remember so much of this down the road. You're gonna be like You know, 'cause I when I think back about Scout, and again, that's my most recent hundred, I'm thinking about I don't even remember the bad times now. I mean, we're what, a month and a half, two months past it. I'm not even remembering the bad times. All I remember is the fun times that we had out there. and that's what your mind will go back to. And I'm like, you know, I remember it was hard and I remember the heat, but I remember Cruising into so many the eight stations. I remember climbing old Tom. I remember laughing and getting jested going up to Scout Mountain. I remember running in the night with you. I remember me and you hauling to get to that mile 58 station and us just screaming in there getting it. I remember me and you laughing and joking it all night. I remember me and Zach having a good time. I remember and Zach doing this awful hike. And then I just remember Jenny always being there and just being an amazing positive influence as a curchie. I don't really remember all the negative stuff. And there was a ton of it. but I love that you say that. I think that's really important and just really, really cool. So that's awesome. Well, dude, any questions or any thoughts that you had that you wanted to bring up, you know, I know I've kind of dominated with asking the questions and throwing them at you, but any questions that you have that you're like, you know, as people are in the middle of this training block and, you know, they're You know, right? They're they're starting to be like, This sucks and this isn't fun. We're still weeks and maybe a month, month, two months away. Anything that you wanted to add or any questions you wanted to address. Eric: Yeah, you know, if when if people are struggling, they're not having fun and it's they're kind of that go time mode. Well, just remember, it's really not supposed to be fun. I mean, run it running's hard. It is. You know, I'm sure gifted runners, it's it's not as hard, but, you know, just walking into that, locking into doing hard things, getting out there, enjoying the quiet wilderness, you know, embrace Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: the heat. Embrace every aspect of this. you know when you get a blister or whatever it is embrace it i mean that that that means we're alive like we can feel something like we get to do this every day and it's just such an honor and a privilege to be able to do it and to get better every day you know i look back at when i started running 10 years ago and you go wow okay you're you've improved running, mentally, physically, spiritually, whatever it is, everything's just better. And it's fun. I mean, you meet people. You know, I met you on the trail three, four years ago, you know, and now we're great pals. I s we run all the time together. And it's just, it's just a joy. It's fun to have these conversations out there. You know, and we don't talk about running all the time, you know. We talk about our dumb JLBs and you know, whatever we got going on or whatever it is, you know. Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: that's just the deal. So, but yeah, just embracing that, embracing the the hard times, the good times. times and you know just walk in and value these experiences. Ryan Head: Yeah. I you know, in in the second what you just said there, I I totally agree. Some of my best friends I have now in life and some of the best memories I've made in my life up to this point, I would say f you know, fifty percent of them are with my family, with my wife, my daughters, with my parents, with my brothers and my in-laws But the other fifty percent is really with all of you guys in the running community. we've had so many fun runs in the morning where we're just talking and all of a I'm like, dude, we just finished ten miles and you're like, dude, I know, like, what the heck? you know. doing these races with, you know, you, with Nate, with Jacob, with Jenny, with Joe, with Tim, you know, I mean the list goes on. Christy, Micah, I mean I I can keep naming people that I do races with and you know, Luke, whoever, man. I I don't you know I can keep naming names, but it's like I make all these friends and I have all these great memories and I'm like this is what it's all about. It's making these good memories, it's about pushing ourselves and and finding the joy in it. Because yeah, sometimes running just sucks. It's not fun. It hurts, it's a pain in the butt, but I find that to be just like the best part is the community, getting out there, being with other people. It's it's a beautiful thing. You know, I know we didn't really touch on it a big time time, but it's something that I know is always a big question and and again you're I I appreciate Eric talking about at the start of this episode is just doing the heat training, doing the vert. I mean, listen, you know, I know a lot of people get nervous, especially with like Wasatch or like Wasatch is notoriously hot. Find the strategies that work for you. Whether that's your work you're you're going for little two, three, four mile runs in the heat every day. You know, not every day, but maybe once or twice a week. You know, you're you're doing your runs on Saturdays and Sundays, like Eric said. where you're starting up maybe a little bit later or your race or your run goes a little bit longer, so you're running at you know 11, 12 o'clock in the afternoon, you're getting kind of cooked on the heat, whether you're doing sauna training, whether you're crazy like me, and you do all your yard work at the hottest part of the day, or or take your lunch out in your car. do these things that's gonna help you become heat acclimated. I know that's a big fear of a lot of people. There's a lot of strategies out there. Click, put it into a search engine, you're gonna find a lot of other options for getting heat acclimated. So take that seriously. And then as for the vert, you know, again, do I I I'm the first to say you don't need to be doing 20,000, 25,000 feet of vert a week. That's overkill. It really is, you know. Find a number that's good for you that gets you that makes you feel comfortable, whether that's you know eight to ten to twelve to fifteen thousand feet, whatever that number is, and and base it off of the race you're gonna be doing. You you know, look at the race and say, okay, what's gonna make me feel comfortable and feel where I I can actually accomplish this race? And and remember that not not it isn't a one size fits all for everybody. Everybody is different. Eric: Mm-hmm. Ryan Head: I've known people who have crushed hundred milers, have crushed Was such and bear, and they live in like Iowa. Right, they they never get vert, but they have instituted other strategies to be successful at climbing and doing these things. So, you know, just because you look on Strava, and and again, comparison is a thief of joy. I I can't emphasize this enough with people. Just because you see your buddy went out and got a 5,000-foot climb on the weekend, you know, that's awesome that they find enjoyment in doing that, and that's awesome. I love that. I take more of the approaches, I do exactly what I need to do to feel successful for my race, and that's what I'm gonna do. And I'm I love the people that love to go back peeks. Nate Alred, I'm talking to you. Sean Brock, I'm talking about you. Love you guys. But that's just not me. I don't really enjoy it. I think it's cool that other people do. I'm more of like, I'm strategic. I'm gonna do exactly what my rate my training plan has me doing this week. And once I hit that vert, we're good. That's what we're gonna do. So Eric: Right. Ryan Head: that's my approach. And just don't compare yourself to others. Don't be like, you know. man, I so and so got X amount of vert this week. I gotta chase them. follow your training plan, stick to your plan, get the mileage you need, get the time on your feet you need. that's where we're gonna find success, in my humble opinion. So yeah, any thoughts with that, Eric? Eric: Yeah, 'cause I think there's there's no set rule book on what you've gotta do to accomplish a race. Ryan Head: Yep. Yep. Eric: You know, there's there's not the how to complete an ultra marathon book and it's step one, get a trillion feet of climbing every week. You know, or you gotta make sure you're running 80 miles a week. If you don't, you can't finish. Well, it's all really personal and relative to what you can actually get done and what works for you. I know what works for me. I like to get fifty, sixty miles a week. I can get that in. I can do that consistently. I like to get, you know, eight, nine, ten thousand feet a week, and sometimes it's five thousand, sometimes it's four thousand. I mean, and it doesn't matter because the cumulative body of work is really what matters. Ryan Head: Bingo. Eric: You know, so yeah, I mean if you're if you've got a really good block of training and it's forty miles a week, but you hit forty miles a week every week and you got you got the amount of climbing that you could get in to get done. you you're gonna do great. Like you you can't really hyper focus on what other people are doing or what you think you need to be doing to complete a race. Because a lot of times it's a lot less than you think. It is. Now, of course, you can't be running 10 miles a week. I mean, you gotta be putting in a a substantial amount of work that's personalized to you, that works that you can do week in and week out. You know, because sure I could I could schedule a hundred mile week and and go do that, but is that gonna be greater for me versus just running fifty, fifty-five miles every single week, year round. I mean, I don't think so. You know, for me it's I lock into that something that I know I can consistently do forever and try to improve within that. Try to get better consistent paces, you know, get better running uphill, get really good running downhill, you know, all those different things. So I don't think there's a you know, set in stone, you gotta be doing this or that. It's you just gotta get in what you can get in and do it with great effort. Ryan Head: Yep. Yeah. Swing a big net and see what happens. And like you said, there's a lot of guidance out there. You can throw stuff into ground, clawed, ch chat GPT, whatever. You can throw it in AI, get some ideas of what's what might work, what's gonna do good for you. But again, just because someone says you gotta be doing a hundred miles a week and fifteen, twenty thousand feet of Earth. may not necessarily be the case. I mean, I I have friends that do the max they've ever done is 45 miles in a week with 5,000 feet of and they're able to finish a bare 100. I have friends or I have myself who does 60 to 80 miles a week and I shoot between 10 to 12,000 feet of Ert and that works for me. I'm not gonna say Eric that's what you have to do. I'm not gonna tell any of my any of my athletes that I coach that's what they got to do. I'm gonna do what's gonna work for them so that they can be successful and sometimes that's trial and error. Sometimes that's why we schedule some of these smaller races to test out their legs and say, okay, is this working? What we're doing, is it working or is it not working? So it's awesome, dude. Dude, this has been amazing. I think this has been a great episode. This is going to give people a lot of information to kind of move forward. I think we've touched on a lot of really fun topics and it's kind of been kind of been interesting. So I don't think we can walk away without at least doing some lightning run questions. So I Eric: Sure, let's do it. Ryan Head: dude I've come up with a a brand new list of Just for you. This is this maybe Eric: Excellent. Let's go. Ryan Head: this may be season two. this may be season two question. So we'll see. One way or the other, we'll have some fun with it. So, first question I'll throw at you, and again, you can answer this with one word, 10 words, you can give an explanation. All good, doesn't matter. first question what is your superpower when it comes to running, trail running, whatever? Eric: My superpower is definitely consistency. I live and breathe consistency and routine. I mean, that's that's what I think I do very well. I think that's been the reason I can get out as much as I do. just that consistency and routine. I love it. I l I live in that space. Ryan Head: You know what, I can second that. I 100% believe you. Dude, you have been more consistent than I've ever seen. I guess I'll take that back. I wouldn't say that you've been more consistent than ever, because you've always been consistent, but I think your consistency has rubbed off on me on the days when I didn't want to run this year. And knowing that you were going to be there has been super helpful. Okay. next one, best race weather. Eric: Best race weather. That's pretty good. Because I love training in cold weather. But I don't know if I'd like to run a long cold race. That would be that'd be tough. I mean, if you can I I something I like to call it anything that would be you call it no temp. It's like where you really can't feel the temp. You don't know if it's hot or cold, it's just that perfect temp. And I don't know if there's a number you can put on it, if it's 70 degrees, 68 degrees, but somewhere in there where you just can't feel the heat or the cold. Yeah. Ryan Head: Nice. Okay. No, I like it. I think that's fair. I know I'm like for me it's always like if I could get a forty five degree day, that's that's ideal. But that that's probably that's wishing for something that will never happen. So I Eric: Yeah, I just I love just being super comfortable where I'm not hot, I'm not cold, Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: I'm not either one of them, you know, because I c I love running cold. I I don't mind running hot, but I I don't like going back and forth. You know, if if I could just find that 70 degrees from sunup to sundown, sign me up. Ryan Head: Heck yeah, heck yeah, I like it. Okay, this one may be tough for you 'cause I of your business. Coffee or energy drinks? Eric: Ooh, well, okay. Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: that's that's sixes because you know, I love the coffee. I love Red Bull. I'm a classic regular Red Bull, the 8.4 ounce can. Ryan Head: Heck yeah. Eric: you'll either catch me with either one of those throughout the day, hands down. So that that that's a dead tie for both of those. Ryan Head: Heck yeah. Okay. Okay. I I know I was like, dude, I don't know if you're gonna be able to choose one or the other. So I was very curious about that. So Kay. This is we're gonna focus on nutrition just for a second. some lightning round questions there. Okay. peanut butter and jelly or a quesadilla. Eric: Quesadilla. Yeah. yeah. Yeah, Ryan Head: Nice! Nice man Eric: the the peanut butter, I I don't know man. I struggle with peanut butter out there. for some reason. Yeah, I could I could smash quesadilla. I mean, no problem. Ryan Head: Nice, nice, okay. Trekking poles or no poles? Eric: I'm a no-pole guy. I hate the poles, but Ryan Head: Hm? Yeah. Eric: I use them on, the big vert climbs. You know, I I'll use them on race day when I know I need them, but I prefer no poles. Ryan Head: Nice. Okay. No, and I that's a hundred percent. I I've seen you do that multiple times, so that actually aligns with what I've seen from you. Okay, I'll throw a couple more at you and then we'll wrap it up. and I'm gonna steal this one from Luke Rich he he asked me this and I thought it was such a good question. What is the most underappreciated or underutilized food with either training on race day or Or a combination of both? What would be the food you would say is underappreciated and not highly used? And I had I had an immediate answer to this, but I'm curious what you think it is. Eric: Boy, that's a great question. An underutilized food. Ryan Head: And it could be a drink too. It could be a drink too. So if you're like, man, a coke is Yeah. Eric: Yeah, I would say, I mean, and a lot of these, the first thing that comes to my mind is junk food. you know, but a lot of these aid stations is just junk food anyways. Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: But I do think, at least for me, I mean, if I could eat pizza, burgers, french fries on a race, I'm in. you know, I think it I think just absolute garbage food is underutilized. You know, I think there's always an emphasis on, healthy food and and again, I'm not a food health expert here. I my my diet is abysmal. And so that's probably why I love garbage food. But it's just I I think there is a case for it. you know, I even think there's a case for, you know, protein and fats, you know. Ryan Head: yeah. Eric: on on a race. You know, I think fats are underutilized, you know, nuts and whatever it is, you know, 'cause it's just you're so emphasized on carbs, carbs, carbs, you gotta get your carbs. It's like, well, I I don't want carbs. I want something savory that's protein based or, you know, beef jerky or something like that. Ryan Head: Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, last one. This one's gonna be a good one. I'm excited to ask you this. What is stronger? Your physical body or your mental game? Eric: Ooh That's actually a tough, tough question, to be honest with you. Because Ryan Head: Yeah, I Eric: I don't know if one has the advantage or not. Ryan Head: Hm. Yeah. Eric: you know, because I do feel like I've got a good strong body. You know, the the body per se, the strength part of the body has never really let me down. you know, the internal aspects of things of course have have have been a limiting factor here and there. But I think mentally I meant the mental side of things probably gets the edge, you know, because you know, when the body is beat up, you know, the the brain doesn't ever really get beat up like your body does, if that makes sense. I mean you can always keep that brain moving and keeping the body moving and you know realizing hey this is this is really hard, this is tough, I don't wanna be here. But you know, quieting those little voices that that are telling you, hey, you know, go home, hit the shower, go to bed. It's like, well, no, Ryan Head: Yeah. Eric: we we can do that later. Ryan Head: Yep. Dude, that's awesome. I love it. Okay. Well quit pastoring you with lightning questions lightning run questions. That was fun. That was a new a new bat new bat a new Eric: Yeah, those are fun. Yeah, I like it. Yeah. Ryan Head: batch. Who knows? Maybe that's what we'll institute for season two of of the POB. But awesome, Eric. Well, dude, it has been a pleasure to have you back on. Been fun to talk to you about, you know, ultra training, where people should be at, you know, how people should be thinking. I don't know necessarily if it should be, but you know We're offering suggestions, we're offering hopefully some advice that will help people kind of lock back in if they're struggling at this point, if they're wondering, man, am I ready for this? It's just been fun, dude. So I appreciate you coming on. I'm excited to see how not only you do at Wasich, but also Havelina this year. It'd be fun to be there to help cheer you on. I'll also be racing Wasetch as well, but we're gonna have a good time. So it'll be awesome, dude. So thanks again for coming on the podcast and being willing to come on for a third time, dude. Eric: Yeah, no, this is lot of fun. I appreciate you having me on. This is it's a blast. So yeah, no, thanks a lot. This is this is a good time. Ryan Head: Yeah. Awesome dude. Well I think you've imparted some really good advice here today. So I think you'll be beneficial for for a lot of people. So cool. We'll wrap it up, dude. Thank you again. Coach Ryan Head: Hey runner, thanks for hanging out with me today on Reimagine Running. I'm grateful you're here and a part of this great podcast. I just want to remind you, if you ever feel stuck and unsure or just want someone in your corner, I do offer coaching for runners at any distance, whether you're starting out with the 5K or you're chasing some crazy big goals and dreams like the marathon or the 100 miler, I'd love to help you. Please reach out and I'd be happy to set up a time to go over options and plans and goals with you. Well, until next time. Take care of yourself, trust the process, stay disciplined and keep chasing that Y.