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The Church's Future in Afghanistan · Centrally Speaking

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Centrally speaking, is the Central Schwingfelder Church's podcast.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the middle way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian Church.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology at the Church.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Our website is www.cscfamily.org.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: We're pleased today to be talking about the church's future in Afghanistan.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: There's been a lot of news lately about Afghanistan, and it's a pleasure to be able to speak to somebody who is living in that area of the world right now in Armenia.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're very fortunate today to be joined by Craig Simonian.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Craig has been working in the Persian and Turkic world for over 30 years, and he has lived amongst Persian speakers in Central Asia for five years, where he and his team planted several churches.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: He also planted a church in New Jersey, which he pastored for 18 years before moving, and he did that with his wife, Joyce, and now they are in Armenia.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: And they've been in Armenia now for some three and a half years.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: In his denomination, Craig served as both the mission's mobilization coordinator and overseer of their work in North Africa, Central Asia, and the Middle East.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: And through the years, he's led numbers of conferences and lectures on Islam around the United States.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Craig, it's very good to have you be a part of Centrally Speaking.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Craig, thank you.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: It's great to see you.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: We've known each other for many, many years.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: And seeing you again now is a real great thing for me.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's my pleasure to see you and speak with you about something that you know so well, being uh so close to the country of Afghanistan, because today we're talking about the church's future in Afghanistan.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell our listeners uh somewhat where you're located and what you're doing and how it relates to Afghanistan?
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Well, for the last three and a half years, my wife, as you mentioned, we've been living in Armenia.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: And now Armenia honestly does not have any kind of Afghan population to speak of.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean, our we have Iraqis, Iranians here, uh very few Afghans, but because of our love for the Persian-speaking world, which is primarily Iran, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, and because 25% of those who are living in Afghanistan are Persian speakers, we've always had a connection to Afghanistan and continue to do on the flip side, where rather than us working directly, we're raising up leaders to go into those areas.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: As you mentioned, also that I spent years living in the Persian world and just believe that God has been doing and will continue to do great things uh in this part of the world.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for some of our listeners, the Armenia is just a couple countries over from Afghanistan, Iran uh in between.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
2:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: We border Iran, uh, and I used to live in a country just bordering Afghanistan.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: So again, it's it where I'm in this region and uh it's part of the world that I really, really love.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, because I I've like you mentioned in your introduction of me, which I appreciate, it that I've had this heart for the Turkic and Persian world.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: Well, we're surrounded by the Turkic and Persian worlds here, and we're a tiny country of three million people.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: It's an amazing country, it's the first country in the world to have embraced Christianity as its nation's religion.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: And it was the church here was founded by Thaddeus and Bartholomew in the first century.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: So our history is long and rich, and uh some of the oldest churches in the world are within a few miles of me here.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: So we we we love being here, and it's also an great, amazing platform to for the region because if you look at where a plane can take you within two hours here, it covers some of the most significant areas and unreached areas of the world.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: So it's a great base for us to be, and it's particularly special for me because I'm 100% Armenian, so it has a lot of value, and I've already become an Armenian citizen, and so it's a blessing to be here, you know.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: So we do have this connection Afghanistan.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: I will say that, like I mentioned, that 25% of Afghans are Persian speakers, and maybe people know or don't know, but there is no Afghan people group.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: There's no Afghanis per se, other than the fact that it's just a designation of those who live within the borders of Afghanistan.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: So you've got primarily the Pashtun people, which make up 50% of Afghanistan.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: And right now, Pashtuns are just at the top of the list of the most unreached people groups in the world, but also 10% Uzbeks, so uh and about 14 other people groups.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: So it's a very much of a tribal nation, very much divided by tribal groups.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: It's divided by belief, about 85% are Sunnis, the other is Shiite, maybe a half a percent are Sikhs or Hindus, but very, very few since the Taliban took over.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: So when you talk about Afghanis, they're more of a tribal group, is what you're uh expressing.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: The country itself is tribal, it's a tribal culture, which means that rather than having kind of a monolith in terms of culture, you've got these mega groups like the Pashtuns who are 50%, Tajiks are 25%, Uzbeks are 10%, the Hazara people who are Shiites are 10%.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: And not only is there a division of culture, but also they're fiercely tribal.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: So they're loyal to their tribe more than the country itself, which is why there's constant civil war.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: And it's why there's likely going to be civil war in the coming months, because while it may make some people happy in amongst the Pashtuns that the Taliban are leading the nation right now, there's a lot of tribal groups that are just not going to simply allow themselves to be led.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: They didn't let the Soviets do it, they didn't let America do it, they're just not gonna do that.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: And so we really don't know what's gonna happen next.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: But historically speaking, you've got the northern alliance of like Uzbeks and Tajiks who will push against the Pashtun Taliban.
5:47
SPEAKER_02: So there's just a lot going on here.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: But are refugees now coming uh in through uh Iran to Armenia at this point, Craig?
5:54
SPEAKER_02: Right now, I mean Armenia is a unique situation.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, right at present, we've got about a thousand Azeri troops inside of Armenia.
6:02
SPEAKER_02: We just had a war last year, if you can call it that, in that it was Turkey and Azerbaijan coming against Armenia.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: And Armenia is a country of three million, Turkey is a nation of 85 million, Azerbaijan is a nation of 18 million.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: So in 45 days, we lost 5,000 young men, which is extraordinary.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: Again, 5,000.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Essentially, if you take the relative population of the US at the time of World War I and World War II, we lost more boys in this 44-day war than America lost in both world wars.
6:35
SPEAKER_02: So it's had a devastating impact.
6:36
SPEAKER_02: Plus, we've got, as I mentioned, a thousand Isaiah troops who are already six kilometers inside of Armenia.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: So this isn't a time where Armenia is going to be taking in a lot of refugees.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: There's constant threats of these nations who are saying they're going to take our southern region.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: So we have our own sort of turmoil.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: So we're not really expecting to see a lot of refugees.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: We do, as mentioned earlier, have Iranian and Iraqi asylum seekers and they spend a year here seeking asylum.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: If they're approved, then they spend a year in refugee status.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: And if they're approved for that, then they get a residence here.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: What's a challenge for the Ofgons is that if you can get them out, and that's been what everyone's been trying to do for the last four weeks, if you get into Iran, for example, as a typical off gone who doesn't have any passport or real documents, then you're stuck.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: I mean, as you can imagine, an Afghan passport is one of the worst passports on planet Earth to have.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: So to be somewhere with just that document or without even that document, so it'll be tough.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: And even as believers make their way into like Iran, life will be challenging there too.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: It won't be like just as it was in Afghanistan or the way it is right now.
7:49
SPEAKER_02: But see, the primary place that people have fled were fleeing to before August 31st, which was the that deadline that the US set is Pakistan.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of people who've gone in there.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: We just don't know how safe they're going to be right now in Pakistan.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: Other, there's been a number of others going into Iran, many going into Tajikistan right now.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: But actually, as we speak, most all the borders are shut down.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: There's no way out of the country.
8:14
SPEAKER_02: We're constantly looking for ways.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Not only do you have Taliban controlling the country, but you have ISIS or the Islamic State pretty much kind of overseeing the perimeter.
8:24
SPEAKER_02: Most people, regardless of whether they're Christians or Muslim, would be too afraid to travel right now.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: So things are pretty much shut down.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: Right now we're in the waiting game to see what this is all going to look like.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: We've got, you know, 30 plus billion people in Afghanistan, and a lot of people are starving now.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: And now they have to run a government.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: They can't allow 30 million people to die.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: So they're trying to figure out how to lead this thing.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: It's a complicated thing.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: I think right now, as we speak, Iran and China are meeting with the Taliban leaders.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Erdogan of Turkey is meeting.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of people who are looking to fill the void that America just created.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: It's a massive vacuum that we created by leaving the way we did.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: And just as what happened in Syria, there's plenty of countries like Russia and Turkey and China and Iran who are very happy to fill that void.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: And we just don't know what that's going to look like.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: That's what it seems is a massive void, is what we're reading here in the news.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: But it's one thing to read it in the States, it's another thing to experience it in Central Asia.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: Are you seeing already how this void is being filled?
9:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes, to some degree, but right now it's it's a little bit more ideologically impactful because there's no real tangible effects yet.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: But where there is, is that it emboldens Islamicists around the Muslim world.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we just at the risk of being political because I don't want to go there, but we've we have in a sense fallen off our perch, the United States.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: And our the ability that we had to be a country of influence where when we say something, people take it seriously, it's really gone.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: I really don't know if we'll recover that.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: I really don't.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: But that has serious implications.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, it certainly makes Israel nervous, you know, that suddenly America, their strongest ally in the world, has become completely weakened, at least in the eyes of NATO and the East and so and the Middle East.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: So it's not, it's destabilized more than we realize.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: It's just destabilized, not to mention what I've already said, that it creates a vacuum where Turkey now is stronger.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: China has their influences uh there.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's they've already bailed out Iran, so their oversight of Iran is pretty strong.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: So so yeah, it's real implications.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: I I think in terms of the church, it will embolden those who would fight against religious freedom because historically we've been a voice for religious freedom.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: And when you lose your voice, well, then who's the other voice?
10:53
SPEAKER_02: It's unfortunately they're not parallel voices, they're competing voices.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: So you have a country like China who's imprisoned a million Uyghurs having a voice, and it's it's a voice of totalitarianism.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: And of course, it is as despised by Taliban or certainly as despised as by ISIS as America.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: It's the idea of being an atheist state in the eyes of a Muslim is a horrible thing, but China has money and they're not afraid of using it.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: I guess we'll wait and see what the uh uh withdrawal will lead to in that part of the world as well as around the world, but let's turn our attention to what type of people Afghanis are, at least from the perspective of an American.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: Many have not met people from Central Asia.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: I know you've been in a variety of countries there in Central Asia.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about Afghanis.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: What would an average Afghani person be like if you're describing it to an American?
11:42
SPEAKER_02: There's going to be a lot of Americans who will have their own experience in that we have tens of thousands of Afghans being relocated around the US right now.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: So maybe some of the people listening to this will actually have uh some Afghans moving in.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: Not to mention there's large Afghan communities in the US, some 40,000 just in the Virginia area, so Maryland area.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Really, what you'll be confronted with when meeting an Afghan is just a different worldview.
12:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that and of course, the worldview is that lens through which we see the world around us.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: It's our worldview view that would help us interpret what we're seeing, what we're hearing, and and their worldview is very different than ours.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: Whenever somebody is frustrated because you're looking at the same thing and you're drawing two separate conclusions, that can be really frustrating.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's really what you have when your worldviews are so intensely different.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's true of Christians and Muslims all the time, or at least Westerners and Easterners, because well, you just take almost any issue here.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of the issues that seem to really get the guile of Americans is this idea of women wearing the hijab or a head covering because it just speaks to the subjugation of a woman.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: And so we see that and we make assumptions that all these women are wearing these this thing to simply to please her man because she doesn't have a choice.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: And but we do have to recognize that we're seeing this thing through a worldview.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: In other words, through their worldview, they may look at us, and as I've seen on beaches, for example, and say, look at these women wearing their thongs.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: Like for whose benefit are they wearing that?
13:09
SPEAKER_02: Is it comfortable to wear a bikini like that?
13:12
SPEAKER_02: Or is you are you doing it to please your men?
13:14
SPEAKER_02: And and you have these competing ideas, you're looking at the same thing.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: So Muslim won't say, Well, I'm doing this in order to stand before God in humility, and not to be naive because there is subjugation of women and all, but I'm just speaking of the fact that there are competing world views here.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: I mean, even the issue of polygamy, Islam does permit, and the four schools of Islam in the world today, pretty much all of them would allow for multiple marriage and polygamy.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: And so we look at that and we we see the error in it all.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: And a Muslim may not even understand that.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, this because the issue for Muslims isn't whether I have one or two wives, the issue is am I faithful to my wives?
13:54
SPEAKER_02: That's the primary driving value here.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: And so when they look at us, which you know, they don't draw a huge distinction with us being Western versus us being Christians, so they look at us Christians and say, Well, you're sequential polygamists.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're as Christians, you have one wife or one husband, you cheat, and then you have another husband and wife and you cheat.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And and so they say, Well, look at how unfaithful you are.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: And so our worldviews keep us from really understanding each other.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: And the only way to get past that is through a misunderstanding is conversation.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: And so it's really sitting down, and and really under that is the issue of being a learner.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: You've got to stay a learner.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: So it's easy to want to draw conclusions.
14:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we we want quick answers to questions, but this is not something you can draw a quick answer to if they have the opportunity.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: And I think it would be a wonderful opportunity to sit down if there's an off gun that you've encountered in your community.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: You can invite them over.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: And if you're not sure what you know what to do, just ask them what foods can you eat, whatnot, and then ask them questions and don't be afraid.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: They're they're not going to be offended.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: They're very astute, you know, they're not numb to 20 hours a day of television and video games.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: They're really attuned to relationships and they'll know if you kind of bear a real humble spirit and all.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: And I would always encourage people to be a learner, remain a learner, don't try to draw conclusions, just take your time and just remember uh along with that is to never ever compare the best of your faith against the worst of another's faith.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: If you just kind of keep those things in mind, you'll learn a whole lot, but you'll enjoy them.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: I remember the first time I my wife Joyce and I were in Peshawar, Pakistan.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: This is right on the border of Afghanistan.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: And uh, we met somebody in the bazaar and he invited us to the house.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: And it was pretty amazing because he allowed his son and two daughters along with his wife to come into the room.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Typically speaking, my Joyce would go and sit with his wife and daughters, and I would sit with him.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: He knew we were Americans, and so he invited us.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: We all sat together.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: And what was really amazing is after maybe 20 minutes or 30 minutes, he gave his daughters permission to take off their job.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh turns out they were the first time they had, they had never, as the 16-year-old daughter had never left their family home, uh their family courtyard.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: So this is a very traditional family, but as we spoke, we just got to know a family that was incredibly kind, who experienced tremendous pain in the war.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: And they all have.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: They've all suffered.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: They all have really been broken by trauma, and very often it's not been dealt with.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: It's a shame-based culture.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Talking about your trauma is not something that's pervay common.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: So I think as uh listening as Americans, uh, we're we're hearing not only a different culture, Afghani, but Taliban.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: How do the Taliban relate to Afghanis?
16:40
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they've taken over the country and they're in power, but how popular are they?
16:45
SPEAKER_01: And also they're enforcing something called Sharia law.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: How popular is that?
16:49
SPEAKER_02: The Taliban, it's just an Arabic word, the talib means student, and it really came from you know the 80s into the 90s, where you had all these orphans that came out of the war there.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: So now they're in these kind of orphanages inside of the mosques in Pakistan, and they will be really becoming radicalized.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: So their kids, and then they grew up, they became students being radicalized, and that was really that first generation of the Taliban.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: And now what we're seeing is sort of their children.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: A lot of these young Taliban men weren't even around, you know, back in the in the 90s.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: So so it's really changed a little bit.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: You've heard that right now we've got the Taliban in Afghanistan, and you have ISIS in Taliban.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: They're they're somewhat competing forces.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: The Taliban, they're considered by ISIS as being nationalists.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Their dreams, their vision is not outside of Afghanistan.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: They basically want a republic state in Afghanistan.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: They have no ambition really outside of that.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: ISIS, on the other hand, has very grand vision of seeing the Islamic State throughout the world.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: There is not a lot of friendship between ISIS and the Taliban, and yet now they're kind of coexisting.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: So when I talk about civil war based on tribal groups in Afghanistan, we also have this thing vying for power.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: Will ISIS simply allow the Taliban to go over?
18:09
SPEAKER_02: You asked the question about like how do the Afghanis see the Taliban?
18:12
SPEAKER_02: They're actually not foreigners.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, in many cases, they are they're coming in from Pakistan, but as I said, the Taliban are primarily Pashtun peoples, and Pashtun is a 50% of the country.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: So they're not foreigners.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: They are, when you talk of Afghanis, they're 50% of what would be designated as Afghanis.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: So the question is to how do other groups view them?
18:34
SPEAKER_02: And I think you know, in their long-standing history here, they've just kind of learned to live with other tribes.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh, this is a little different now because now the Taliban have control over the entire country, and that changes everything.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: As for Sharia law, it's a fascinating reality.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: And this is something that you know you you ought to just spend a whole conversation with.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: First of all, I should say that there are 1.8 billion Muslims on planet earth.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: So there's no they when talking about them by any stretch.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've got Islam, 15 to 20 percent of Islam are Arab.
19:09
SPEAKER_02: So that means 80, 85% of Muslims around the world are non-Arab.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: And so you can imagine how they see how they different people groups, Muslim people groups would define Islam would be different.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: So trying to sort of keep on center here of what most people would agree, Sharia is essentially that set of laws that provide governing principles that would meet your spiritual, mental, physical needs that impact these different areas of your life in the life of a Muslim.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Its purpose is to help Muslims understand how to live their lives according to God's law and according to God's wishes.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh, and again, for Muslims, for the world to live the way God created the world to live, which is essentially the idea of shalom, in order to experience shalom, the whole world need essentially needs to live under Sharia law.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: It's God's law.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: Actually, a typical Muslim understands this language of Dada al-Salaam, which is the house of peace, versus the Dada al-Harab, which is the region of war.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: And the house of peace is when the world is living under God's law, whereas the house of war is where humanity would live in turmoil because they choose to reject God's law.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: It would take further thought, but let me just say this as you consider what Sharia is.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: In many ways, Sharia sort of parallels our understanding of the kingdom of God in the Old Testament.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Because from Moses to the time Saul is put in as king, you essentially Israel is being run as a theocracy, right?
20:37
SPEAKER_02: And if you read Deuteronomy, as you certainly have, God lays out his law for people to follow and he then points judges over time that would help apply these laws in unique circumstances and what it's what you see in Sharia law.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: So we think when we think of Sharia law, we think of all Muslims are killing people of other religions.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: We think of Muslims who convert need to be killed, and what laws of apostasy, Muslims who commit adultery need to be stoned to death, Muslims who dishonor their parents must be put to death.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: But actually, if you read Deuteronomy 13, verses 6 through 10, it's talking about people of other faiths and in being killed.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: There's a context to that, of course, but in the eyes of a someone in a Taliban, some of these sections of scripture make a lot of sense to them.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: Leviticus 24, 16 speaks of how the convert needs to be killed.
21:30
SPEAKER_02: Like there's an apostasy law there.
21:32
SPEAKER_02: Muslims are people who commit adultery stoned to death.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: That's Leviticus 20, verse 10.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: Muslims are people who dishonor their parents, put to death.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: That's Exodus 21, 17.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: So, in the eyes of a Taliban typical person in the Taliban Sharia law, it's just an outgrowth of that.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: It's just God's blueprint for the world.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, one of the core theologies of Islam is the idea of tahir.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: That's the oneness of God.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: And if God is one, then his will has to be one, and then all of Creation has to submit to that will.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's no church and state.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: There's no two ideas, grand ideas.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: There's one God and one will, and we submit to that will.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: That's what the word Muslim means is one who submits.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: And so that's our job as humanity is submit to the will of God and to live under this theocracy that God has in their minds has created.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: And let your kingdom come, let your will be done on earth that is in heaven.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: And for a Muslim, what does that look like?
22:26
SPEAKER_02: It looks like Sharia law, much the way an ancient Israelite would have understood it back at the time of Moses.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: So but it will lead to the subjugation of women and children, which we're already reading headlines about that today.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: And it'll probably lead to uh the subjugation of Christians as well.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: So when you think of this idea, this dream of the world living in this theocracy, living according to God's wishes for humanity, when somebody actually is part of that house of peace, and then they willingly step out of that and embrace an opposing faith.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: You can imagine that the anger that stirs in them, that you know, everything we're trying to do, you're like violating, like it's really treasonous in their minds.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: It's evil.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, when we talk about heaven on earth, this is in many ways, this is hell on earth.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: It's the personification of hell on earth.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: When I'm sharing what I am and making the parallel between the Old Testament, I'm simply sharing it how the Taliban might see it as opposed to how we might look at it.
23:28
SPEAKER_02: Because there is going to be subjugation without a doubt.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: There's no way this is good for Christians.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: Like this, we can hope, we can wish, but the reality is Christians in Afghanistan are going to get killed.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: They are getting killed, they're going to continue to get killed.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: As it is, even before the Taliban controlled the entire country, on average, 11 Christians were being killed every single day for their faith.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Now there's no uh opposing power to try to put limits on that.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: We have no idea what this is gonna look like, but we do know that Christian women are gonna be taken as sex slaves and forced into relationships.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: We know that boys are gonna be forced to fight into Taliban families and forced to fight for the Taliban.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be difficult for a while.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: The believers there, they they've been living with this.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: They know what it's gonna cost, and especially that first generation, they've been counting that cost for a long time.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: They have been counting the cost for a while.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: I know that there are a number of agencies that would say that before the Taliban takeover, that the Afghani church was the second most persecuted church in the world and now can only increase, although I don't know if it'll ever reach the status of what's happening in North Korea.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, that is very true, but at the same time, it's what was was one of the fastest growing churches in the world.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: Three of the top fastest growing churches are the Persian-speaking world churches, Iran, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: There's reasons for that.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Iran is Shiites, and um, there's just an openness and understanding of the nature of suffering that makes the cross seem more tenable than it would be to a strict Sunni.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm not doom and gloom, and we can we'll talk about it later because the possibilities here are extraordinary because of the God that stands before all of this.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I mean, women you know are subjugated, they're wearing burkas if they're if they're out of the house without a male relative accompanying them.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: So they're gonna face that.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: But again, speaking specifically to the church, they're gonna live under these apostasy laws.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: And Achun Zada, he's the head of the Taliban, he just very publicly said this week that in all matters of governance and life in Afghanistan, it will all be regulated by Sharia law.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: So everyone keeps asking them, what about the women?
25:34
SPEAKER_02: He says women will be treated according to Sharia law.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: So even the US State Department, it was almost very silly, were complaining this week about the leadership of the Taliban in Kabul didn't have enough female representation, which you just have to know how they they must have laughed for about 20 minutes when they heard that that was our primary objection.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: With all that's happening, is that there's not enough women.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: Like it's that mentality that got us into this mess.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: We're not dealing with the same culture, they don't think the same way.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: It's why we lost the country in a matter of weeks because they don't see things the way we see them.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: And that's why we make a lot of foreign policy blunders.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: We think we don't understand when we don't, and we we have to be careful about that always.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, to be fair, uh, this morning I was also reading on the BBC.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm also uh speaking, just Western nations uh saying the same thing about the lack of female representation among the Taliban leadership.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: But you're right, it is different worldviews, so we have to be aware of that very much so.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: We do.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: We have to just understand that if we want to understand what's happening, we need to try to see things through their lens.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's just the nature of all things.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: But we do, we we have regular news coming out, and I think news will continue to come out in one way or another.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: I don't think we'll be shut out and and eventually I think the Taliban will allow Christian NGOs back into the country.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: They're going to have to.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: They, you know, they came in, they were really rough.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: They stole mass amounts of farmland, they just took everything over and uh prices went through the roof, people are starving.
27:00
SPEAKER_02: They're smart enough to know, they're evil, but smart enough to know they can't do this without help.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's why they're doing whatever they have to do right now to engage with Iran and China and Turkey and Russia.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: But you know, but right from the beginning, the home church leaders were saying that they were getting these letters.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: There's always a matter of this true or not, but these are the things that we've heard multiple times that we know who you are.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: And again, these first generation Afghan leaders, everyone knows who they are.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: Everyone's terrified.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: If they go to a Muslim home, even if they love their neighbor, they're gonna say, yes, he's a Christian.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: And so maybe somebody can say, well, the good thing is they didn't just take them outside and put a bullet to the head.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: But that's happened too.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, just this week, one believer was killed because he had a Bible app on his phone.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: I was with a group of Afghans and they were telling me that wherever they leave their town, they just clear their phone.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because if you have one foreign phone number, they just pull out their gun, they put a bullet in your head.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: Like there's no thought, there's no remorse.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: So there was one leader in Kabul last week who said at 5:30 in the morning he woke up to screams of women and kids.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: They were they were taking the woman and the kids from the family, Christian family, and he was making a plea saying they're killing us, please pray for us.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: So this is all very real.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't know.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we put rosy glasses on when we look at persecution because you know, so much of artwork had, you know, beautiful halos around the heads of those who have been persecuted.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: Reality is it is more brutal than we can imagine.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: And it it's just the constant stress.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: When we lived in the country where we lived, my right-hand guy was arrested and beaten for a month, and it has an impact.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: Like, and the idea that it doesn't is just not real.
28:36
SPEAKER_02: It really creates a tremendous amount of trauma and fear, but it's extraordinary what God does in bringing healing and new life.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: And are you hearing uh stories of whole churches being wiped out?
28:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, we we hear everything.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've actually not heard there be any kind of confirmation about that.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: We've certainly heard uh of churches who have really encouraged their people, just everyone just kind of get low, we'll regroup as soon as we can.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: And and I really do think that's where most people are at right now is we just we don't know what this is gonna look like now.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: The world has just changed.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: It has changed.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: It the whole region has changed, it's all changed.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: We just need to give this a little space to see as they kind of step out.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they just put a law against protests, and there are women who are protesting for fear of losing rights of education and whatnot again.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: So the government is promising to come against them.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: We just don't know how tough they're going to be.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: This idea that was being promoted by our State Department that this is a kinder, gentler Taliban, that's of course all nonsense.
29:37
SPEAKER_02: These guys grew up from the time they were six, eight years old with guns in their hands.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: They don't know what else to do.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: If they don't have a fight, they're going to create a fight.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be simple.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: But there's still good news.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, why don't we turn a little bit to that good news?
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Can you share uh maybe some stories, uh, maybe a testimony or two that has come out of uh since the uh Taliban takeover that has been uh more positive, at least for the church and Christians in the area?
30:03
SPEAKER_02: Well, there of course are many wonderful stories of people getting out where it took it was a huge risk for them to get out because you know that was the biggest issue here is to get from the home to the airport.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: Because as soon as you go to the airport, you're exposing yourself.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be here.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: You you are implicitly against the Taliban.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: So so there's so much risk to that.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of those wonderful stories of how that happened, those miracles getting from point A to point B.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: Also, people getting over the board into Pakistan and now and they're kind of gathering and meeting together now, regrouping.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: I will just say for the sake of time, that the stories that have are moving me the most right now are the stories of those who decided to stay who could have actually gotten out.
30:48
SPEAKER_02: And even more so, the stories of those who got out who have already come back in, knowing they'd probably not have another chance to leave again.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: That's happening and that's extraordinary.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: You know, one that's a little bit more personal just because it involves a good friend of mine.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: But on a recent trip to Afghanistan, he was almost killed and he was protected by an offgone believer who really put himself out there to do this.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: And uh, so just helping a foreigner, just to be out with a foreigner could could cost you your life.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: This man, he really protected this friend of mine.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: So when the bomb happened at the airport, an American Marine grabbed his wife, threw her to the floor, and just jumped on this bomb.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: And he he took it, he he was killed in an instant, but he saved this Christian woman.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, the man who saved him was killed, just in terms of being an American, like it does that those kind of things make me at least proud.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: And in a moment where I don't feel proud about everything, that like a US, young US Marine who will was willing to give his life so that one off gone could be saved.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: And it turned out to be a real solid believer in Jesus.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: And of course, she's got a lot to go through right now, having just lost her a life and real the reality of somebody just saving her life who just died.
32:00
SPEAKER_02: But so there's there's of course many good stories, but right now, you know, it's it's it's it's early to rejoice because we do know what they're gonna go through, and and it just creates a heaviness for all of us.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: I just know if I was in that situation, the one thing that would probably encourage me the most is just knowing that people were we're talking about, that we're not forgotten, and even more so that that we're praying.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's something you could pass on to us from all the experience you've had in this area of the world.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: If you were to give a couple prayer requests, what would you suggest that they be?
32:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, when you're praying for them, pray knowing that they have counted their cost.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: There's they're not naive whatsoever.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: They know exactly what this means, not just for themselves, because listen, it's one thing to put yourself in harm's way and risk your life.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: That's never easy.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: But what's difficult here is that you're putting your wife and your daughters and your sons.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: So a whole family makes this decision that we're gonna put ourselves out there.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Listen, they live in Job 19, uh, that no matter what happens in right now, in this moment, in the end, they know that their Redeemer lives, and in the end, he stands.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: It means something to know who in the end gets to stand.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: And you know, you read the book of Revelation because here John had this opportunity where these countly, countless numbers of his spiritual sons and daughters were being persecuted, and he's writing to them.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: And this letter, this book is written to people going through what they're going through, and they and they read these words and there's life in it for them.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: I would say that I think any one of the other listeners would be thinking the same thing.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: If I was in that situation, I would be praying that I would survive, my family would survive, and I would be praying that we would remain faithful.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: Those are the things that they're praying for.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's important because as much as we want to pray for Afghans, because they're a praying people, just know that you're not praying for them, you're praying with them.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: Like your prayers are joined with theirs.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: These are the things they're praying.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: God, we want to survive, want my kids to survive, but we want to remain faithful.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: So, whatever the cost, it's scary.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: They don't know who to put their trust in, they don't know who their friends are as believers, their neighbors are terrified too.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: So anyone could turn on them at any time.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: So just so pray uh for them in that, for their survival, but their faithfulness.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: Any one of them could renounce their faith in Jesus and be okay.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, really, they if they were public about it, they may get beaten, they may get the cane, but they would be okay in the end, I would imagine.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: Very few are gonna do that.
34:33
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna pay the ultimate price for it, and they're they're ready to do that.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so so pray those two things and just pray too, just oh, for the Taliban.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it they are flesh and blood.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: That's all they are.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: It's evil, but they're flesh and blood.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: And our struggle is not against flesh and blood, it's against wooers, authorities, cosmic powers of this of darkness against evil, spiritual uh forces in the heavenly places.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: I mean, so we we said our prayers that way, they've just become willing participants because of evil uh in Satan's plans, but uh we have authority as believers to pray against that, uh, rather than curse them to just keep loving them.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: And we that's powerful in and of itself.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: And just remember the Muslims that you have the opportunity of bump rubbing shoulder to shoulder with, and just never forget that there's not one of them for whom Jesus didn't joyfully go to the cross to die for.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: It was for his pleasure and his joy that he died for each and every one of these Taliban.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: So we need to see somehow a revival.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: They can't possibly be happy.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: We know the nature of evil, we we know there's disenchantment, they're afraid.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: So let's pray for that revival of the oppressors and the minority groups and whatnot.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Anything else that you'd like to pass on to our audience today is a do you think about this rather large topic?
35:49
SPEAKER_02: Well, there's so much to talk about, but I just would encourage people that it's very easy to get lost in the political ramifications.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: And if we could invest that kind of time in praying, we would solve a whole lot more.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: And that's what they need.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: It's so important for people who are suffering to not feel forgotten.
36:09
SPEAKER_02: Our praying for them is that reminder you're not alone.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's political political ramifications, there's frustrations.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: I think it's hard as Americans to realize now that what that we've done something here, just like we did in the last administration with Syria, that created a gulf that led to a lot of lost lives.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: Like right now, what we can do, we can pray.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: And we could also pray for the courage to go ourselves or to be involved in other ways to care.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: Like if there are Afghans in our area where we can love them, teach English as a second language to them, help their kids in school.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: If you're a city where uh people are receiving Afghan refugees to go to the local library and join their acclamation clubs where you can teach English to new people.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: And so get involved and be the blessing that you're meant to be.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: God blesses us to be a blessing.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure everyone listening has the capacity to be a tremendous blessing.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for this interview and answering our questions.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: And we certainly wish you the very best in your service there in our media.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.