Latest / Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health / A Groundbreaking, FDA-Cleared Approach to Opioid Use Disorder, with Jeff Lott

Transcript

A Groundbreaking, FDA-Cleared Approach to Opioid Use Disorder, with Jeff Lott · Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health

• 0:01
  Jeff: I'm not making a claim here that we cure addiction, but what I'm saying is, what should we call it if I take a guy who was on 120 milligrams of methadone every day for the last year and he stopped cold turkey?
• 0:16
  Jeff: And he's playing basketball, you know, on day five after that.
• 0:21
  Jeff: And then he goes off and gets a job and starts becoming a daddy and do his parents, you know, maybe we shouldn't call that curing addiction, but I don't know.
• 0:29
  Jeff: It seems like it's something.
• 0:39
  Brenda: Welcome to Hope Stream, a podcast where you'll hear interviews, conversations, and encouraging words for parents of teens and young adults who struggle with substance misuse and mental health.
• 0:51
  Brenda: I'm Brenda Zane, your host and a fellow parent whose child struggled.
• 0:56
  Brenda: I'm so glad you're here.
• 0:57
  Brenda: Take a deep breath and know you're not doing this alone anymore.
• 1:02
  Brenda: Hi friend.
• 1:03
  Brenda: Before I tell you about today's episode, I just have to pause for a moment and let you know how incredible what you're doing is.
• 1:12
  Brenda: I spend a lot of time inside our private online community where parents are sharing what's going on with their families, asking for support and supporting each other.
• 1:22
  Brenda: And honestly, it is so humbling to read.
• 1:26
  Brenda: and to see everything that's going on in there.
• 1:29
  Brenda: And I know that is probably also what's going on with you.
• 1:34
  Brenda: There are so many really difficult situations where as a parent, you are put, I don't know, not, not even just between a rock and a hard place, but between a boulder and an impossible place.
• 1:48
  Brenda: It takes so much stamina and love to keep putting your feet forward every day.
• 1:53
  Brenda: And I am just in awe of the ways that you keep showing up.
• 1:57
  Brenda: It is remarkable.
• 2:00
  Brenda: So if you're feeling a little worn down today, know that someone sees your struggle and your effort and knows that you are like the special ops of parents doing unimaginable things on a routine basis with very little recognition.
• 2:17
  Brenda: But I see it and I see you and I hope that you'll give yourself a pat on the back today.
• 2:22
  Brenda: and a whole lot of grace.
• 2:26
  Brenda: This episode is kind of a follow up to a few other episodes which you are going to want to rewind to, but let me set the stage and then it will make more sense.
• 2:38
  Brenda: Back in 2021, I stumbled on this very interesting and little known medical technology called NET, neuroelectric therapy, and I went down a research rabbit hole.
• 2:52
  Brenda: to see if it was legit, and to better understand it.
• 2:56
  Brenda: Turns out it was legit, and so then I tracked down two different people to come on the podcast and talk about it.
• 3:04
  Brenda: One was a film director named Norman Stone, who had made a documentary called The Final Fix, and the other was with the operations manager at NetRecovery, the company that makes the device.
• 3:19
  Brenda: I had to talk to Norman first because there was an FDA Trial in place that prevented Owen Fielding from NetRecovery from talking about it at the time.
• 3:30
  Brenda: So the first episode is number 83 with Norman Stone, the film director.
• 3:35
  Brenda: He's a hoot.
• 3:36
  Brenda: You're going to want to listen to that.
• 3:38
  Brenda: And then you're also going to want to listen to episode number 86 with Owen.
• 3:42
  Brenda: He is from NetRecovery and he explained a lot.
• 3:48
  Brenda: Okay, so what's the big deal about this device?
• 3:51
  Brenda: You're I won't go into it too much because Jeff Lott, my guest on today's show, is going to do that for you, and he's much more qualified.
• 4:00
  Brenda: But this is an FDA cleared medical device that allows someone to detox from opiates in three to five days with no withdrawal symptoms, no discomfort, and have no cravings.
• 4:13
  Brenda: And yes, I did say three to five days, not weeks, not months.
• 4:18
  Brenda: Don't worry.
• 4:19
  Brenda: Jeff is going to explain a lot about that.
• 4:22
  Brenda: What I think is also important to know is after those first two episodes aired, several of our members in the community in HopeStream had their kids go and be treated during that FDA trial with the NET device.
• 4:36
  Brenda: And they actually experienced that process of going from intense addiction to fentanyl and other opiates.
• 4:43
  Brenda: To less than a week later, being able to engage normally in the world and start addressing their trauma, get into therapy, and really deal with all of the issues that had led to their addiction.
• 4:55
  Brenda: So this is not fantasy stuff.
• 4:57
  Brenda: It is very, very real.
• 4:59
  Brenda: And I have seen and talked to people who have undergone this treatment.
• 5:04
  Brenda: When I heard that the NET device had been FDA cleared, I reached out to Jeff Lott, the Director of Communications for NET Recovery, because I wanted to better understand the current status and what is in store for the future for this incredible medical technology.
• 5:22
  Brenda: Jeff is also part of the family who developed and brought the NET device to market, so he has an unusually deep understanding of what it took to get this from an experimental device that was developed by his mother in law, a Scottish surgeon in the 70s, to its current position as an FDA approved, medication free treatment for opioid use disorder.
• 5:47
  Brenda: It is an incredible story, and I'm so glad to be able to bring this information to you Because fentanyl, as you know, continues to ravage our country and our communities and families.
• 5:58
  Brenda: And this is something that works, and that people need to know about.
• 6:02
  Brenda: You're probably very curious by now, so I'll stop talking.
• 6:07
  Brenda: Take a listen to this extremely encouraging and enlightening conversation with Jeff Lott from NetRecovery.
• 6:30
  Brenda: Hey Jeff, welcome to HopeStream.
• 6:32
  Brenda: This is a conversation I was hoping that I was going to be able to have back, uh, gosh, I can't remember.
• 6:38
  Brenda: I think it was 2021 or 2022 when I talked with Owen and I talked with Norman Stone who did a fabulous documentary about NET and here we are today.
• 6:50
  Brenda: You guys are FDA approved.
• 6:52
  Brenda: I'm so happy that we're sitting here.
• 6:55
  Brenda: So welcome to the podcast.
• 6:57
  Jeff: Thank you.
• 6:58
  Jeff: Great to be here.
• 6:59
  Brenda: I would love to have you go back a little bit and tell some of the story of NET, how it originated.
• 7:06
  Brenda: You don't have to go into, you know, every nitty gritty detail, but I think it's an important background for people to know that this has been in the works for a very long time.
• 7:13
  Brenda: It wasn't just like thought up in somebody's, you know, lab last year.
• 7:18
  Brenda: So take us through a little bit of the history and then we'll get into some of the details of the of the FDA trial.
• 7:24
  Brenda: Okay.
• 7:24
  Jeff: So the story starts, uh, quite a few years ago at 60s or 70s, uh, in Hong Kong.
• 7:36
  Jeff: And there was a team of, of doctors, uh, doing surgery on Hong Kong residents.
• 7:43
  Jeff: And they started getting feedback and post surgery interviews that people were no longer craving the opiates that they had been addicted to.
• 7:55
  Jeff: And at first, I don't believe they knew what was happening.
• 7:59
  Jeff: Uh, but then once they started investigating, they realized that, uh, at the time being Hong Kong, there's a lot of Chinese influence, even though it was kind of ruled at the time by the UK.
• 8:09
  Jeff: And, uh, they were using acupuncture.
• 8:13
  Jeff: Uh, for anesthetic and part of this acupuncture was not just acupuncture needles, a technician would roll the needles and it was generating this very small electrical current.
• 8:24
  Jeff: And it was eventually discovered that it was somehow affecting these people's brain.
• 8:30
  Jeff: And to use kind of layman's terms, it's the kind of resetting their brain to a pre addicted state.
• 8:37
  Jeff: Uh, and so they were coming out of this surgery from this experience and, uh, their, their desire that, that hole they had on themselves to go use opiates had dissipated and, uh, it wasn't that they couldn't use them now, but they just didn't feel compelled to.
• 8:54
  Jeff: Uh, and so many of them stopped and that was kind of the beginning.
• 8:58
  Jeff: Uh, one of those doctors was Dr.
• 9:00
  Jeff: Meg Patterson.
• 9:01
  Jeff: She's a Scottish, uh, surgeon and she kind of shifted her life's work from surgery to Figuring out what this was and how efficient could she be with it and how many people could she help.
• 9:15
  Jeff: And so that was a decades long journey of, of her helping people sometime around the year 2000, give or take, uh, her son in law who's an electrical engineer by trade and our current CEO.
• 9:30
  Jeff: He, he got involved and in some ways modernized the technology, Shrink it down into a smaller physical package.
• 9:42
  Jeff: And utilize software and, and more modern techniques to, to automate some of the, the processes that she was doing to treat people using very small bits of electricity.
• 9:55
  Jeff: And once he got involved and started doing that, he started doing some research and, and trials.
• 10:02
  Jeff: Some of those were.
• 10:03
  Jeff: In Scotland and since about, I believe, 2007 here in Kentucky, where I'm talking to you from, and, uh, we finally in, in 2021 started our pivotal clinical trial, double blinded trial, to try to prove once and for all that this is a legitimate form of treatment for OUD.
• 10:25
  Jeff: Uh, we finished that, that trial in the summer of 2023, submitted to the FDA late summer, early fall, and on May 29th of 2024, they sent us a letter.
• 10:38
  Jeff: Basically saying, okay, you have our permission, I guess our blessing to treat people for OUD with this device.
• 10:46
  Jeff: So there was a lot more details in there, but that's, that's kind of a good summary of, of how we started from the sixties and ended up this year finally getting, uh, the ability to, to start using this widespread.
• 11:00
  Brenda: It's so incredible.
• 11:01
  Brenda: And I know Dr.
• 11:03
  Brenda: Meg has passed and she's no longer with us and I believe her husband as well.
• 11:07
  Brenda: But can you imagine how happy she would be to know that this has finally received approval?
• 11:15
  Brenda: And I know her daughter is still probably, I think, working with you guys.
• 11:20
  Brenda: And I just have to imagine that's such a huge feeling of accomplishment and and pride in for sticking with something that long, like decades long, because they knew it worked.
• 11:34
  Brenda: I think that's just really interesting and just goes to show how powerful this is.
• 11:41
  Brenda: And we're going to get into a little bit of how, how it's going to be distributed, but you talked a little bit about How it works with the, the stimulation, but what does this device look like?
• 11:52
  Brenda: Like take us through what the treatment actually entails, because I want to get a good grounding there.
• 11:59
  Brenda: Cause I have 4 million questions.
• 12:00
  Brenda: So I'll, I'll try to hold myself back and we'll start there.
• 12:04
  Jeff: So the, we, we call it the device.
• 12:06
  Jeff: Uh, you know, we'd probably need to, uh, hire some great marketing person because the device is a pretty bland, generic sounding name, but it's been called that for so long, you know, I don't know if it'll ever change.
• 12:18
  Jeff: So the device is, it's about similar in size and look to, uh, if you've ever been to a public speaking event and the speaker has one of those, you know, wireless kind of headphone mics.
• 12:30
  Jeff: Uh, and it goes to a pack that's usually clipped on their belt.
• 12:34
  Jeff: It looks like that pack is clipped on the belt.
• 12:37
  Jeff: And just like that wireless mic, it has a wire that goes out from the pack.
• 12:41
  Jeff: That's powered by a 9 volt battery.
• 12:42
  Jeff: And it goes to two small, uh, electrodes at the end of which is like little EKG pads, little sticky pads.
• 12:49
  Jeff: Uh, and it's placed behind the ears here, I believe on the mastoids is, is, uh, the part of the body that, that we call that.
• 12:56
  Jeff: And that nine volt battery sends little, little pulses of, I'll call it micro electricity.
• 13:02
  Jeff: Uh, I only say that to, to say that some people are, when they hear electricity and things being on your head, they think, are you shocking these people?
• 13:10
  Jeff: No.
• 13:11
  Jeff: Some people can't even physically feel it, but it's just sending these little micro pulses of, of electricity.
• 13:17
  Jeff: At just the right you know, frequency or wavelength and amplitude to basically stimulate a part of the brain that we believe, uh, the nucleus and compass, which deals with, uh, dopamine.
• 13:29
  Jeff: We place the device on the patient, we turn it on, and they wear it continuously 24 hours a day.
• 13:37
  Jeff: Uh, until they stop receiving benefit from it.
• 13:40
  Jeff: And that, the amount of time that, that, that is, is different for everyone, but it's very typically three to five days.
• 13:48
  Jeff: We've never seen anyone go longer than seven days.
• 13:52
  Jeff: Uh, and the shortest that we feel like a good treatment has, has occurred has been maybe two days.
• 13:58
  Jeff: So, the, the ends of the range would be two to seven days.
• 14:01
  Jeff: What's more typical is, is three to five.
• 14:04
  Jeff: And there's one knob on it for amplitude, which it kind of controls the intensity, if you will, and the patient wears it and it runs through the program.
• 14:14
  Jeff: Uh, we've got many different programs depending on what substances a person is, uh, struggling with and what they're withdrawing from.
• 14:23
  Jeff: They usually will come to us and say, yeah, I don't, I think I'm done.
• 14:27
  Jeff: I haven't ever been, been treated.
• 14:30
  Jeff: But I have worn it just to see what it feels like and, uh, it's just a little irritating to me.
• 14:36
  Jeff: And I think that's what happens at the end of the treatment.
• 14:38
  Jeff: I think it's soothing, soothing, soothing.
• 14:41
  Jeff: And then at some point it kind of becomes a little bit irritating.
• 14:43
  Jeff: And that's when we know you're done.
• 14:45
  Jeff: Your body's then put back the way it should be.
• 14:48
  Brenda: It's so astounding to think, you know, I think most people, when you say therapy, 3 to 5, they're thinking you're going to say months, but this is days which is truly kind of incomprehensible, especially when the person is not experiencing those withdrawal symptoms.
• 15:05
  Brenda: And I know somebody who's been through this, actually, I know three people who have used the device.
• 15:11
  Brenda: And they all say.
• 15:13
  Brenda: I did not have withdrawal symptoms.
• 15:15
  Brenda: So is that typical?
• 15:18
  Brenda: Is that what you've seen?
• 15:19
  Brenda: Because I know the, the trial you, you saw over a hundred people.
• 15:23
  Brenda: So you've seen the, a span.
• 15:26
  Brenda: What is that experience like for them when they actually put it on?
• 15:29
  Brenda: Because you're talking about people who are in full opiate addiction.
• 15:33
  Brenda: This is not like, Oh, you know, I probably should stop.
• 15:38
  Brenda: Like these are people who are fully, fully.
• 15:43
  Brenda: Addicted to opiates.
• 15:44
  Brenda: So, what is that experience like when, when they put it on and they start going through the, the process?
• 15:52
  Jeff: Almost unanimously, people are very skeptical.
• 15:56
  Jeff: Uh, they're hopeful that it works, but a whole lot of them just aren't sure that it will.
• 16:02
  Jeff: It's super common.
• 16:04
  Jeff: And you check on them an hour later and they're beside themselves.
• 16:09
  Jeff: We get comments all the time.
• 16:11
  Jeff: Like people will say, I haven't felt this good in five years.
• 16:17
  Jeff: Uh, or, you know, I, I see colors now.
• 16:20
  Jeff: Like, I feel like I haven't been able to see in a long time, or I can smell things.
• 16:23
  Jeff: Like I, I haven't been able to smell in a long time, or they describe their minds being clear.
• 16:30
  Jeff: You know, we try to.
• 16:31
  Jeff: Build some kind of a little bit of rapport with them before we start.
• 16:34
  Jeff: I mean, we don't we don't spend necessarily days doing that But at least some minutes at least And people usually, you know, especially when they have a drawing, you know, they're in a pretty down state.
• 16:46
  Jeff: They're down on themselves They're down on their future.
• 16:48
  Jeff: They're while they're hopeful that they can get relief from the device in general, they're not very hopeful.
• 16:53
  Jeff: They're, you know, come off as being kind of depressed and sad.
• 16:57
  Jeff: And, uh, you know, you talk to them later that day after they've been on this device for a few hours.
• 17:03
  Jeff: And all of a sudden you can kind of see the wheels turning in their head.
• 17:06
  Jeff: Like, maybe I have a future, maybe I have a bright future.
• 17:10
  Jeff: And, uh, I'll tell you, it never, I, watching that transformation while we did, you know, I have over a hundred people in our trial.
• 17:18
  Jeff: And we, we've been treating people since we've been cleared by the FDA.
• 17:21
  Jeff: Uh, me personally, I, I have gotten to see it happen several times, but not hundreds, so but it never, never gets old for me, you know, every time I see it again, it's not like, eh, yeah, I've seen it, seen it.
• 17:34
  Jeff: It's always amazing to watch that transformation occur with someone new.
• 17:38
  Jeff: With someone going from no hope to all of a sudden they, you can see their, their, uh, their whole demeanor changes.
• 17:44
  Jeff: And, uh, that's.
• 17:45
  Jeff: And that's why we do this, you know, uh, we want to give people hope.
• 17:49
  Jeff: We want to give them back the ability to say no to drugs, right?
• 17:53
  Jeff: Without that hole that, that's just so insatiable.
• 17:58
  Jeff: So it never gets old getting people to that place where they have hope and can choose again.
• 18:04
  Brenda: And the elimination of those withdrawal symptoms, because I hear this from so many people that that is often the thing that.
• 18:12
  Brenda: That's like the, the biggest hurdle to them actually making a change.
• 18:16
  Brenda: So they may be at a point in life where they want to stop using, they really want to change their life, but when you hit that wall of withdrawals and you just have to power through it, that's a, that's a lot.
• 18:30
  Brenda: So to be able to take that away it provides, I think, really an amount of dignity also of starting a new chapter in life and doing it without going into it being like violently sick.
• 18:45
  Brenda: And then to be freed of those cravings afterwards is, is really huge.
• 18:51
  Brenda: Are there people who couldn't use this?
• 18:54
  Brenda: as a form of treatment.
• 18:57
  Jeff: I gotta put a disclaimer in here.
• 18:59
  Jeff: We're, we've only been cleared by the FDA for opioid use disorders.
• 19:02
  Jeff: So, technically, if someone came to us and they had no opiates or opioids, I should say, in their system, but they were withdrawing from meth, for example, uh, we would not be allowed to treat them, but I'll say I'm not, in case the FDA's listening, I'm not making any official claims.
• 19:21
  Jeff: But our past experiences have shown us that it seems as though we can be an aid to people, I'll say, who are withdrawing from other substances other than OUD or from opioids.
• 19:36
  Jeff: If someone comes in, like many do, uh, with a drug, then, uh, we're opioid.
• 19:45
  Jeff: So, it doesn't seem to It reduces the effectiveness of our treatment.
• 19:51
  Brenda: And what would you say is sort of the typical person that you've seen come through and use this?
• 19:58
  Brenda: Just give us a general idea maybe age, the length of time they've been using, sort of their general condition, just to give people, you know, listening there.
• 20:08
  Brenda: These are probably parents listening and they're, I'm sure right now imagining their child.
• 20:13
  Brenda: Maybe talk about the, kind of the, the typical person and then the range that, that you've been able to help.
• 20:20
  Jeff: I don't know that there is a typical person.
• 20:25
  Jeff: You know, I see 19 year olds and people in their 60s.
• 20:28
  Jeff: So, if I had to think of the most, Common people in their late 20s to late 40s certainly there's people older and younger than that, but something about that age, I guess a lot of those people are probably at the life stage where they're really sick of being sick and they really just want to be done, you know, some people feel that way when they're 19 years old, but perhaps less of them do, you know, when you're 1920, you feel like you're going to live forever and nothing bad will happen to you.
• 20:59
  Jeff: And.
• 20:59
  Jeff: We all know how we thought when we're that age and people still do so men, women, old, young, all different races, uh, Addiction does not discriminate.
• 21:11
  Brenda: No, it does not.
• 21:13
  Brenda: And I, and I know the two of the gals that I know that have been through it were actually on an airplane on their 18th birthday headed to Isaiah house in Kentucky because they were at that point even at 18 to say I'm so addicted to fentanyl I can't I've tried, I've been to treatment, right?
• 21:34
  Brenda: They both had been to adolescent treatment.
• 21:37
  Brenda: So, you know, you have the FDA approval for opioid use disorder.
• 21:42
  Brenda: What does the future look like now?
• 21:44
  Brenda: So as far as, uh, insurance, as far as, you know, programs picking this up, I, I imagine, and I talked about this a little bit.
• 21:54
  Brenda: with Owen about what this might do from a kind of structural standpoint with the entire system, right?
• 22:01
  Brenda: The whole treatment world is, it's a system in itself.
• 22:05
  Brenda: So what does, uh, sort of a rollout look like?
• 22:08
  Brenda: Like what, what's coming now?
• 22:11
  Jeff: It's a great question.
• 22:13
  Jeff: We're, we're discussing that daily, trying to figure out what's the best way.
• 22:19
  Jeff: We want everyone to have access to this treatment.
• 22:22
  Jeff: Uh, we just got cleared two months ago.
• 22:24
  Jeff: We're a relatively small.
• 22:27
  Jeff: Kind of a family company.
• 22:29
  Jeff: Uh, and so we don't have billions or even millions of dollars.
• 22:34
  Jeff: Uh, you know, we don't have an army of lawyers or salespeople or any of that.
• 22:40
  Jeff: Uh, and so as it stands today, we're, we're in one facility here in central Kentucky and we're treating as many people as we can.
• 22:51
  Jeff: Uh, but I, I think our, our longer term goals would be, of course, to have Medicaid.
• 22:57
  Jeff: pay for the cost of this treatment, uh, and I believe that they will, but it's, it's going to take time just like it took time to get the FDA to clear us.
• 23:06
  Jeff: It's going to take time, uh, for that process also.
• 23:10
  Jeff: And we didn't want to sit on our thumbs and do nothing while we underwent that process because, you know, a hundred thousand every year dying, uh, in the state of Kentucky, over 2000 a year.
• 23:22
  Jeff: Uh, there's thought to be last time I checked 50, 000 people just in the state of Kentucky who.
• 23:27
  Jeff: are addicted to opioids.
• 23:28
  Jeff: So plenty of, of people that need help now.
• 23:31
  Jeff: And we're, we're, we're starting small with as many as we can, but, but hoping to grow, uh, as far as what that looks like, hasn't necessarily been decided, but we're, we're excited to treat the people that we can currently, and, uh, things like this help, help normalize this type of treatment for, for people across the country.
• 23:56
  Jeff: Uh, I assume you have listeners who are probably nationwide and the more people who are aware of it and.
• 24:01
  Jeff: And, uh, understand it.
• 24:04
  Jeff: I think it, the better for us to, to try to spread with, with less, uh, skepticism, you know, we, we deal with still a lot of people who think it's just snake oil and this doesn't work and, you know, at some point, I, I don't know how many people we have to treat who will testify like, well, it works for me, you know, before before the general consensus is okay, this is a new option, but I, I don't, unfortunately, I don't think we're there yet, but we're getting closer every day.
• 24:29
  Jeff: Okay.
• 24:29
  Jeff: A couple of scientific papers that are going to be published before the end of the calendar year, and I think that will help us with the, the high level, kind of, uh, Policymakers and the data heads who, who are in the ears of the policy makers.
• 24:43
  Jeff: So we're trying to hit it on two fronts, you know, we want to show good data, but the truth is for the people struggling a lot of them don't care much about that.
• 24:53
  Jeff: They want to see people who have been changed and they want that to be their story too.
• 25:06
  Brenda: Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child, worried, sick about their substance use?
• 25:13
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• 25:17
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• 25:24
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• 25:31
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• 25:43
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• 25:54
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• 25:58
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• 26:00
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• 26:07
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• 26:10
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• 26:12
  Brenda: Now let's get back to the conversation.
• 26:27
  Brenda: How would somebody sort of start to help, like I'm in Seattle, Washington, very far away from Kentucky.
• 26:33
  Brenda: How could I start to make my counties aware in my area that this is FDA approved?
• 26:42
  Brenda: You have, you know, my county has opioid dollars.
• 26:45
  Brenda: What would that look like?
• 26:47
  Brenda: Is that is that something you guys are working on?
• 26:51
  Jeff: We're, we're trying to, uh, spread it to the, to the edge of the Kentucky and world right now.
• 26:58
  Jeff: Uh, and once we, once we get to the borders, then we will go beyond.
• 27:02
  Jeff: But yeah, there's, there's people who have come from out of state, uh, several States California, I think Wyoming, Colorado.
• 27:11
  Jeff: Uh, Ohio, Virginia, Tennessee, that is an option.
• 27:17
  Jeff: Uh, people have the means to do that, but, you know, many don't.
• 27:21
  Jeff: And so I would, to those who don't, I would say, be, be patient.
• 27:26
  Jeff: We're trying to get to you as quick as we can.
• 27:28
  Jeff: But our, our big problem now is, is money.
• 27:31
  Jeff: People, the people who need this the most often don't have the money to pay for it.
• 27:37
  Jeff: And that's, Why the idea of something like Medicaid exists, of course we do have, uh, we're soliciting counties in Kentucky who are willing to sponsor their residents for treatment.
• 27:50
  Jeff: So, uh, there's nothing to stop someone from, uh, asking their county if they'd be interested in talking with us about, uh, something like that also but I would probably direct people to, you know, to our website, of course.
• 28:05
  Jeff: Thanks.
• 28:06
  Jeff: To, uh, there's a, a, a documentary film you've probably spoken to, I think you've had the director, uh, of the film on your podcast before Norman Stone, but, uh, a documentary called the final fix.
• 28:18
  Jeff: That's a great introduction to people.
• 28:20
  Jeff: It's a, it's a time commitment, of course, because it's like watching a film, but if I think watching that gives someone a great introduction to NET.
• 28:28
  Jeff: Uh, because they get to kind of see it in action with people and if any county officials or city officials were willing to watch that, uh, then, then I would definitely say encourage them to do so.
• 28:40
  Jeff: You can rent it on Amazon Prime for 1.
• 28:42
  Jeff: 99, so not much money and that usually will whet people's appetite.
• 28:49
  Jeff: I, I've never spoken with someone who's seen that and been like, yeah, this is all right, but yeah, I don't really have any more questions about this thing.
• 28:56
  Jeff: You know, usually it generates a lot more interest.
• 28:58
  Jeff: Uh, just because of what you see happening on the screen, so.
• 29:02
  Jeff: That might be a good start.
• 29:04
  Brenda: And just to be clear, this is not sort of a silver bullet.
• 29:08
  Brenda: Like, it's not like you put this on for five days and then they step out and walk away and everything is cured in their life.
• 29:14
  Brenda: There's obviously still a need for therapeutic work.
• 29:19
  Brenda: There's often, you know, physical implications to a long term addiction.
• 29:24
  Brenda: So somebody might still need medical care.
• 29:26
  Brenda: So this is that initial phase.
• 29:30
  Brenda: That bypasses the horrible withdrawal symptoms, the horrible cravings to allow somebody to then get into therapy, do therapeutic work, and actually be able to engage in it very quickly versus having to wait maybe 30 or 60 days while their body is reeling from the effect of not having those.
• 29:53
  Brenda: opioids in their system.
• 29:55
  Brenda: I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that because I don't want anybody to think like, Oh, this is a panacea.
• 30:00
  Brenda: They just do this thing for five days and then, you know, everything's going to be fine.
• 30:04
  Brenda: There's still a lot of work that has to happen right from, from that point on.
• 30:09
  Jeff: Yeah, we, we think that we handle the, the physical, a big portion of the physical part of addiction very well, but of course there's, there's other aspects to it that we don't touch, and so NET is to be used in in partnership with a place like Isaiah House, which is the place we partner with, and they do a great job of with us.
• 30:27
  Jeff: Helping someone through the, the kind of the mental, the psychological, the social, the financial, all those aspects of a person's life that, that get wrung out and, and, and pulled apart when they become physically addicted.
• 30:40
  Jeff: You know, those things need to be dealt with.
• 30:42
  Jeff: And one of the, something that we have to remind our patients is sometimes they do feel like after five or six days, they're like, I feel great.
• 30:51
  Jeff: Like I'm ready to get out there and do everything right.
• 30:54
  Jeff: And we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 30:55
  Jeff: You know, you.
• 30:57
  Jeff: I, I, this is my way of describing it to them as I say, you know, we, we might've just put a new engine in your car, but you still have four flat tires and you need to air those babies up before you hit the road.
• 31:07
  Jeff: And, and the way you're going to get air in those tires is by working with an organization like Isaiah house or many, many other great organizations who do similar things to, you know.
• 31:17
  Jeff: Teach you how to deal with stress in an appropriate way, teach you how to manage your finances, teach you how to manage your relationships so that they'll be healthy, set boundaries all those kind of life skills and, and sometimes there might be deeper psychological issues to deal with also, uh, but those things also are, are part of the healing process and part of the restoration process and NET won't help you really at all for those things.
• 31:39
  Jeff: So.
• 31:40
  Jeff: Now this might get me in trouble, but I will say something a little controversial, which is people are quick to say, you know, we can't say that this is a cure for addiction.
• 31:49
  Jeff: And if they're defining addiction as all of those things happen, then I totally agree.
• 31:57
  Jeff: However, a controversial thought that I have sometimes is if you took a person, because certainly there's people out there who are taking it.
• 32:03
  Jeff: Don't know how to manage stress, don't know how to manage their finances, they might have psychological problems, they might have all those problems, but they're not, they're not what we would call addicted to a substance, uh, we wouldn't call them addicts, you know, it's, and so, uh, part of me says, well, is, is there, uh, and I'm not saying, I'm not making a claim here that we cure addiction, but what I'm saying is, What should we call it if, if, if I take a guy who was on 120 milligrams of methadone every day for the last year and he stopped cold turkey and he's playing basketball, you know, on day five after that.
• 32:41
  Jeff: And then he goes off and gets a job and starts becoming a daddy and do his parents, you know, maybe we shouldn't call that curing addiction, but I don't know, it seems like it's something.
• 32:51
  Brenda: It's something I, I agree.
• 32:54
  Brenda: I think what you're talking about is the, the physical reliance on a substance and addiction to a substance versus all of the ramifications of the reliance on the substance.
• 33:09
  Brenda: So if you tease those two things apart.
• 33:12
  Brenda: You're right.
• 33:13
  Brenda: You're, you are fixing and taking away the body's dependence on that substance, which then allows somebody to
• 33:20
  Jeff: Yeah.
• 33:21
  Brenda: Fulfill all the other parts of their life.
• 33:23
  Brenda: Now, they might not know how to do that.
• 33:25
  Brenda: So, like you said, you got to fill up those tires and that takes, you know, family work and, you know, legal, clearing up legal issues and all of that.
• 33:35
  Brenda: But to be able to do that.
• 33:38
  Brenda: it with a clear head feeling great with some food and nutrition in your body, right?
• 33:44
  Brenda: Cause one of the things I recall from the documentary is These guys are eating like the same day they came in and they're like I haven't eaten like this in 10 years I haven't had an appetite or I haven't been able to hold down food So just the basics like that to then say okay No I actually could sit in a therapy session and start to work through some of these things of my past or traumas or my family Issues or whatever it is So, I get it.
• 34:13
  Brenda: I like the controversy.
• 34:14
  Brenda: I'm with you on that.
• 34:15
  Jeff: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:16
  Jeff: I'm not willing to say that because a lot of people will get mad at me, but I'm putting it out there that at some point, I'm, I'm putting the idea out there that maybe there is a cure for, I'll say, the physical part of addiction.
• 34:29
  Jeff: Maybe.
• 34:30
  Brenda: Yeah.
• 34:31
  Brenda: Well, I can't wait to see where you all take this and I'm just rooting in the background, mainly because I've seen.
• 34:39
  Brenda: You know, three of our members have had their kids come to Isaiah House and go through NET treatment.
• 34:45
  Brenda: And it is nothing short of, I would say, miraculous.
• 34:50
  Brenda: You know, they can't believe it.
• 34:51
  Brenda: Their kids can't believe it.
• 34:52
  Brenda: And not to say that there aren't still struggles, right?
• 34:55
  Brenda: People get back to their quote unquote real lives and there's still struggles.
• 35:00
  Brenda: There's still issues.
• 35:02
  Brenda: But the, the impact of what they go through.
• 35:07
  Brenda: In those three to five days, I think is absolutely a life changing, not just for the young person or the person, whoever, whatever age it is, our, our listeners tend to have younger kids, but for their families, because to see your child really in a state of very desperation, right?
• 35:28
  Brenda: Of very, being very sick, very addicted to then seeing them.
• 35:33
  Brenda: Like, Oh my gosh, there's my kid.
• 35:36
  Brenda: There's my child.
• 35:37
  Brenda: There's the person that I know.
• 35:40
  Brenda: They feel good.
• 35:41
  Brenda: They look better.
• 35:42
  Brenda: That is something that I, I think a gift that families all would appreciate.
• 35:47
  Brenda: So whatever we can do here at HopeStream, let us know we will, we will do that.
• 35:53
  Brenda: I think I just had the idea we need to, we had a screening of the final fix within our community for our members.
• 35:59
  Brenda: And I'm going to do that again because I want, we have a lot of new members and I want them to see it.
• 36:04
  Brenda: I can't see it enough times.
• 36:05
  Brenda: It's just incredible.
• 36:06
  Brenda: So Any final words for families that have kids out there struggling right now that you want to share with them?
• 36:14
  Jeff: I think for a long time, uh, there, there haven't been a large variety of options.
• 36:20
  Jeff: And now there is, there is a new one available.
• 36:24
  Jeff: And while it's not as widespread as quickly as we'd like, uh, it's coming.
• 36:28
  Jeff: And in fact, if you can find your way to Kentucky, it's here now.
• 36:32
  Brenda: Yeah.
• 36:33
  Jeff: I'll, I'll be the first to say N& T actually does not work for every single person that tries it.
• 36:38
  Jeff: There are, is a small percentage that it just doesn't seem to work for them, but well more than half, well more than half, it seems to really change their life.
• 36:49
  Jeff: And if you've tried everything else and it hasn't worked, that's been the story of many of our patients.
• 36:56
  Jeff: I tried everything else.
• 36:57
  Jeff: I tried methadone.
• 36:59
  Jeff: I tried suboxone.
• 37:00
  Jeff: I tried, uh, drawing horses and.
• 37:03
  Jeff: Playing with kittens and anything and everything you can think of.
• 37:06
  Jeff: And they're kind of coming in desperation, hoping this works, but not necessarily expecting it to.
• 37:11
  Jeff: And, and, uh, we've just been able to see amazing things happen.
• 37:16
  Jeff: So hopefully it'll be available for everyone within the next couple of years.
• 37:23
  Jeff: It's our hope.
• 37:24
  Brenda: We need to take some of that Sackler money with all of their sales people and, and bring it to you guys so you can develop an equally large and powerful sales for her.
• 37:34
  Jeff: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Brenda: That would be amazing.
• 37:37
  Jeff: Yeah.
• 37:37
  Brenda: Thank you so much, Jeff, for joining us.
• 37:39
  Brenda: I will put links in the show notes for Isaiah House, for the NET website, and also for the documentary.
• 37:46
  Brenda: And if you're a member of HopeStream, watch for a updated event listing for a screening.
• 37:52
  Brenda: We will do that.
• 37:54
  Brenda: Okay, my friend, that is a wrap for today.
• 37:56
  Brenda: Don't forget to download the new ebook worried sick.
• 38:00
  Brenda: It's totally free It will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now To start creating those positive conditions for change in your home and in your relationships It is at hope stream community org forward slash worried and guess what?
• 38:18
  Brenda: We have moved the entire podcast to our website at hope stream community org So now when you want the show notes or resources, or if you want to download a transcript, just go to hopestreamcommunity.
• 38:31
  Brenda: org and click on podcast and you will find it all there.
• 38:35
  Brenda: You can search by keyword, episode number, guest name, and we have created playlists for you.
• 38:41
  Brenda: Makes it much easier to find episodes grouped by topic.
• 38:44
  Brenda: So we're really excited to have that done and hope you like the podcast's new home.
• 38:50
  Brenda: Please be extraordinarily good to yourself today.
• 38:53
  Brenda: Take a deep breath.
• 38:55
  Brenda: You've got this and you are going to be okay.
• 38:58
  Brenda: You're not doing it alone.
• 39:00
  Brenda: I will meet you right back here next week