Latest / Conversations with Amoda Maa - Exploring Awareness Through Dialogue and Living Inquiry / Episode 49: Personality Types and Awakening

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Episode 49: Personality Types and Awakening · Conversations with Amoda Maa - Exploring Awareness Through Dialogue and Living Inquiry

• 0:00
  Greetings everyone and welcome back to another podcast with Amoda Maa. Hello Amoda
• 0:06
  Hi, Kavi. So it's been a while since we've done a podcast but here we are. Today we are going
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  to talk about personality types and spiritual awakening. We're going to be exploring whether
• 0:25
  it's easier for certain personality types to awaken than other types. Are there certain traits
• 0:33
  and tendencies that are more oriented towards the dissolution of ego identity? Is the doorway
• 0:41
  to awakening the same for all individuals, even though personal characteristics vary,
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  vary widely. And how's the personality? Does the personality have anything at all to do with
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  the recognition and abiding in true nature? So we're going to
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  talk, we're going to touch on astrology, gene keys and human design. We're probably going
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  to touch on the Dosha system of Ayurveda and even kind of allude to the Enneagram among others. It
• 1:16
  has to be said at this stage, as we were talking about it beforehand, we're not going to be going
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  into the specifics. So we're not going to break down each of the astrological signs and say, "Yes,
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  this person, this type is ideal for awakening, and this person, this type is not, and the
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  same with all of them." Some of these things, Amoda particularly knows more about than than
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  others. I know very little about some of these things, for instance, the Enneagram. But so
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  it's more to kind of unpack a bit the generalities really,
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  some of the more broad kind of aspects of the conversation. So let's jump into this
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  Amoda, where are we going to start with this? Where's a good place to begin?
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  There's a, I would say, delicate dance or edge between self and no self, in other words,
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  the personhood, the personality, you know, as the personhood expresses itself and how
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  the individuation operates and the no self, which we would say is true nature.
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  I think there's a delicate dance between the two that is worth an exploration.
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  I don't think there is a definitive answer and I don't think as far as I know there are
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  any research on it or anything written about it or any knowledge about it. But I find it
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  quite an interesting topic, which is why I suggested it, and certainly worthy of exploration.
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  Is there the question is, is there potentially a relationship between the personhood or the
• 3:31
  personality, the type of person one is, and the non-personality, the infinite, true nature
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  that we all ultimately are. You could say the personality is specific to the individual.
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  It's unique to the individual with all its nuances. That's one sacred geometry and that's
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  what we can explore a little. And true nature is universal. There's this kind of true nature,
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  and that kind of true nature. True nature is true nature. So what is the relationship? Only
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  because it's the interesting thing is it's the person, the personhood with all the levels and
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  layers of its human uniqueness that is, if you like, on the path of seeking awakening.
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  Now, is there a type of person, a type of person with certain characteristics or certain traits
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  or certain psychological makeup that is more if you like attuned
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  or closer or easier to awaken or not. I think it's worthy of a little bit
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  of a conversation. And what do we mean by a personality?
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  first of all, we have to understand or perhaps agree
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  that each of us comes in with a unique imprint. Some of it is conditioned by our conditions,
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  our parents, our family, our geography and so on, our education and that forms, you know,
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  and whatever lessons we've learned or whatever hardships we've
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  come against or whatever traumas we've experienced, some of our personality,
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  if you like, is shaped by that or influenced by that.
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  And some of it is prior to that conditioning. It's either very, very early at birth or prior to birth
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  in the womb. And then prior to that, even the imprint that we come in with our, if you like,
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  karmic tendencies. So we do each have a unique imprint. So it's not just on the surface,
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  personality on the surface, but personality at the deepest,
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  the sacred geometry we come into. And that's where you mentioned, you
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  mentioned the doshos of Ayurveda, the Enneagram, astrological imprint, gene
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  keys and so on. These are not something that we becomes, it's something that we already are,
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  at least on the level of the individuation. They're all clues or keys of reading
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  or understanding our tendencies, the particular flavor and texture
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  that we each are. Some people are more fiery, some are very basic level, some people are more earthy,
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  some people are more in the air realm. Of course, this is just one layer and then there are many
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  other layers. So I think it's relevant because, well, actually inside of all that, and I know
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  I'm kind of moving along here a little bit like a river, but we'll try and find a sort of doorway
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  that opens up to something. But I think inside of everything that we're, or at least I'm
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  mentioning here, it's more about how the individual ego structure forms.
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  Because whilst there's a universal mechanism that forms the ego structure, for each individual,
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  the ego with its various defense structures is going to be different. And that's where
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  something like the Enneagram comes in, or even astrology comes in. Astrological imprint,
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  Yeah, we're not talking about predictive astrology. Yeah,
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  the defense structures are different for each individual. And there are certain
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  conglomerates of defense structures that make up a particular type, if you like. And each of us,
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  I think, needs to understand our own ego structure and the way that defendedness, what the way
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  those defence structures are operating in life. And that's valuable in the process or the journey
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  of the undoing of those defence structures or the willingness for those to be undone. Because
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  very often there's this idea that awakening or freedom is just a bolt of lightning that comes,
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  call it grace, whatever. And actually, it's more beneficial to understand what our own
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  defense structures are, how the ego structure forms itself and how it operates on a unique
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  individual level to allow us to or to facilitate the undoing of that in life,
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  in the journey of life. And that facilitates
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  the awakening that is so sought after. You know, we can give some examples, right?
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  Well, roll on, let's give some examples. I have some things to say, but I'm not going
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  to interfere with your watery flow. Examples.
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  Well, I'll use myself as an example. I always do. I would say that my one of my primary defense
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  structures, in other words, the way that I would defend from anything that might hurt.
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  And in my case, that was being seen for who I was, but yeah, being seen, exposing myself,
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  being honest, being intimate, or being demanded of.
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  If there was any need of me, my defence structure would be, I guess, retreat.
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  Yeah, retreating, going into my shell. Now, retreat is, and going into
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  one's shell, is the need for space. Yeah, the need for my space, the need
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  for being left alone, that's a defense structure. When we examine that, that's a very air quality.
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  Yeah, so someone like myself who has five planets in my natal astrological chart, all
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  in air signs. There's an indicator there. In the Enneagram, I'd be an Enneagram 5, which
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  is very much the need for space, the need for solitude, which on one hand is a beautiful
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  thing because it takes us into the deep self. But on the other hand, can be a defense structure.
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  Yeah. So for somebody else, anger is a defense structure. Yeah. Anger, rage, attack, putting
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  up a wall, my will against your will, that's a very strong defence structure.
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  So I could say then whether that comes through astrology or whatever my defence structure
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  would have been too in a watery kind of with the Pisces and Moon to get lost in, to attend
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  tendency towards addiction because addiction was oblivion, oblivion was escape. Escape
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  was defense. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. So again,
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  we can probably find the correlate for that in one of those systems. I think the Enneagram would
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  describe that very well. So these are just small examples. It's not the be all and
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  end all, but these kinds of insights. So let me just say this. You see, then you take something
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  like the five enneagram and this particular defense strategy as I was just describing.
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  The edge, that's why I said it's a delicate edge. On the one hand, that's a defense structure
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  that is operating and can be seen in relationship pin relationship to others in relationship
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  to the world in childhood and so on. And is a, you know, when it's kind of unconsciously
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  operating, it, it, if you like, keeps the ego structure intact. Yes. And then on the other hand,
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  yeah, that's the sort of delicate dance. particular ego structure is more if
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  you like closer to the void of being. Yeah, because emptiness,
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  solitude, aloneness is very close to the void of beingness. So it's the kind of structure that
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  would either feel very isolated and very alone in a negative sense, isolation, alienation,
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  and so on. But on the other hand, if it has the capacity to really soften into that, it's
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  a doorway into the void of being. And so that's where the actual...
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  That was where you went. The actual experience of awakening is not,
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  although it's the same awakening, the doorway is not always the same.
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  That was my doorway. I fell into the void of being.
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  I dissolved and died into emptiness. That's why when I speak about it,
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  and it sounds so, I don't know, otherworldly or kind of something.
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  And then, you know, the response is sometimes, oh, I want that, but I can't quite get there.
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  It's not always appropriate for each individual. Yeah, it's not always the doorway.
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  - Okay, okay. 10,000 questions arise.
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  Okay, so just on, let's just get to that point. The existential void, now you've talked about this
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  a million times, and I know that your doorway was the doorway that you just referred to,
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  which was the isolationism, the pulling back into being alone in a negative way, and that
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  kind of compelled you or graced you to meet the void. Is the void that needs to be met the
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  same, but the doorway is different? I would say yes. The void is
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  the void. That's what I mean. So there are 10,000 doorways, but only
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  one void, let's say, there's only one garden, but there are 10,000 doorways to that garden.
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  And then what you'll discuss, what you're positing here in a sense is actually, you know, we've
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  already eradicated our argument about the personality types in a sense, because what
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  what you're saying is that self-knowing is more important than the type. It's not the
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  type that actually matters. It's not the doshia that ultimately matters. It's not the enneagram
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  that ultimately matters. They're the doorways, but they're not what ultimately matters. What
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  matters is turning around and meeting our tendencies and there the tendency is the doorway.
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  Yes, yes, I do think so. I think what's more important actually
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  than the personality type however we describe that personality type is
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  For some reason For some reason
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  There are some ego structures that are more fragile than others.
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  And we come in with that imprint. Now, is that a personality type
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  or is it some karmic imprint, yeah? Which over lifetimes that ego structure
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  has become a little more permeable. When I say fragile, I mean permeable.
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  permeable because if we look at it in terms of lifetimes, which I am not really one for
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  the linearity of lifetimes, but let's say that this individuation, every individuation
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  that emerges from the void, the beingness, the totality is born of the one. So it's
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  whether it's this particular one that's reincarnating,
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  yeah, or whether it's just reincarnation is not affiliated to an individual self,
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  it's in a many self's ring. It happens to be you.
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  Yeah, we hold the imprint. Yeah, it's just that it's been many cycles.
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  Yeah. And we hold that imprint.
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  It's not mine, but it has an imprint in me now. That repetition, I'm really positing this, yeah,
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  just kind of following a thread of intuition here.
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  That repetition in a way brings a certain, let's call it openness to the ego structure
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  because it has become, if you like, on some level, that repetition, it has come to see,
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  even if it's on a deep unconscious, subconscious level, that the impermanence of things,
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  and the clinging to experience, the being titulated or enamoured or entranced by experience,
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  experience on a physical level, experience on a mental level, experience on emotional level,
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  experience on a cumulative level, experience on an entertainment level, experience on a
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  acknowledged level, experience on a, you know, the pleasure-seeking level. Yeah, that becomes
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  a little bit tiresome. We kind of subconsciously are almost ripe. We are ripe for something beyond.
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  And I think that creates a more permeable ego structure. Now,
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  I'm really out there here with you. But I'm, I don't know, I'm kind of pulling
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  on my own deep journey, if you like. Yeah. So, this is a possibility, what's being suggested
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  here. But I do think there are ego structures that are maybe weaker, more fragile, more open, more
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  permeable. This is neither saying it's better or a worse, I'm just saying how it is. If you
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  like on the on the negative side, a weaker or more fragile ego structure means that I
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  don't have a strong sense of self. And in everyday life, that makes me a doormat or
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  makes me timid or makes me insecure. More prone to break down. More prone to suicide, more prone
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  to mental illness, more prone to neurosis, more prone to all of those, you know,
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  what are considered the problem people in today's society and every society really. Yes. And so
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  that can be the flip side, the negative side if you like, but it can also, if we
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  know ourselves, yeah, we go deep within and start to work with that if you like or move through
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  that, it can also be a very profound doorway. And again, I'm speaking from my own experience
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  because I am one or was one of those. Yeah. And so that can be a doorway where the ego
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  structure comes undone more easily. It's closer to death if you like. It's closer to psychological
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  death. And if you look at something like the gene keys system, which is quite a complex system,
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  and we don't have all the knowledge of it, but we have some knowledge
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  and understanding of it, again, at least on an intuitive level,
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  whoever's interested can look it up, but it is quite complex. But there are gateways in the
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  psychophysiological mechanism associated with our genetic coding. And some of those gateways
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  are closed and some of those gateways are open. And each incarnation, each incarnated
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  individualization has a unique display, if you like, of those gateways. And you and I know,
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  Kavi, and I think we both have this, we have very open gateways. Yeah. Yes. A minor, I think
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  minor all open. So openness is actually very, very natural. Again, it has certain functional
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  idiosyncras, idiosyncrasies that, that means that, you know, in the, on a worldly level,
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  certain characteristics are of strength or empowerment
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  or confidence or whatever they might be that society loves in order to be successful are not
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  at the forefront. But there's another quality. So again, we're using very personal examples because
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  we don't know all the types. But I just think that, yeah,
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  and then you mentioned, I think those who are
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  perhaps on the edge of society or we could say they're artists.
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  The artists of this world, the mystics of this world,
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  the outsiders in some way or in the old culture, that would be the shamans.
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  Perhaps that's what we're talking about. Maybe that's the frequency holders.
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  I don't know, but I think it's worth, you know, and let's just look at,
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  I know we're jumping around, but let's just mention for a moment or two,
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  babies, babies who are very open, their ego structure hasn't formed yet.
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  Yes, there's an imprint, yeah, some babies come in angry
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  Some babies come in more cheerful and joyful, but really a quality of babies beyond their
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  particular little imprint is openness. Their ego structure has not formed yet. The ego structure
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  forms, I think, around the ages of five to seven. That's when we become
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  who we are on a person. personality level, yeah.
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  That openness of the psychological structure is what gives babies
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  the qualities that are the same qualities, the qualities of awakening, joy, flow, the
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  ability for emotions to flow without sticking. Yeah, everything is experienced, innocence,
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  acute, sensorial, yeah, experience with that can be delight.
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  Yeah, kind of ecstasy, really. Yeah, all of that. So,
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  unconditional love. Aliveness, vibrancy.
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  There's a natural state of awakeness in that that isn't self-recognized.
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  It can only be recognized when we've developed the mental, psychological faculties for that.
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  but it's a natural state of awakeness. I think if we perhaps look at some
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  call them primitive cultures, but I don't mean that really in that sense. Let's say
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  original cultures. Yeah, original
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  cultures. As far as we know, as far as we know, Aboriginal
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  cultures. I think the Aborigines are probably the best example of that.
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  there, and again, I don't know much about it because I haven't interacted with Aboriginal
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  cultures, but as far as I can get a sense of, that's a very natural state of awakeness.
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  It's very attuned to the totality, to beingness, to the oneness, to
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  Again, there's an innocence in it and so on and so on.
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  These are all examples of a less formed ego identity.
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  And as the individual progresses, develops through life and as society,
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  or civilization develops, that ego identity becomes stronger.
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  We become to be identified by our culture, by our opinions, by our beliefs.
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  by our education and so on. So ego identity gets stronger.
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  So I think this idea, if you like, of the density of ego structure
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  or the more permeability of ego structure is kind of perhaps fundamental.
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  How we measure that, I don't know. I don't think it's about measuring it.
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  I think it's about knowing it in ourselves. - What to me, what's this?
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  Measuring exactly? - Well, we can't exactly measure the density
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  of somebody's ego structure and say, well, you've got a little more work to do.
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  - You've got a little ego. - You've got more ego.
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  So you're gonna go, you're gonna have to take longer
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  on your spiritual journey. (laughs)
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  - Oh man, there's a, You've really stirred my hornet's
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  nest of the mind here in many ways. I don't come with a fixed idea.
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  But when you talk about, for instance, the Aboriginal culture, or some of the earlier
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  people's, you see less concern or interest or anything in what astrological type or any
• 30:27
  a gram or gene keys any of those people are. And what I hear you saying is that that's
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  for a whole different number of reasons, but also because it's not such an ego driven
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  culture. So that suggests in some way if you reverse it, the ego formation in these modern
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  societies of the ego structure is then either exaggerating, exacerbating or multiplying or
• 30:58
  what is the relationship of these things that we take. We love our systems, modern human beings,
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  love systems, right? We've got the gene key system, we've got the doshia system,
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  We've got the anyagram, we've got a million different systems and they all do speak to things
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  in a very specific, I know, when the doctors have identified me as a vata and described what a
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  vata is in the I of edicts. So I'm like, that's me. You've described me absolutely accurately,
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  but do you know what I'm trying to get at? It's like,
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  There's the ego structure, which is if you like a symptom or a product of development
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  in our society or collectively. And that's primarily made up of
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  of defensive structures and those defensive structures, psychological strategies, we should
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  call them. Yes, yes, that's good.
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  to seemingly protect us from anything that we feel will hurt us. And I'm not talking about
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  somebody punching us in the face or something like that, psychological pain. And that could
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  be as simple as simply not liking what I'm experiencing. The inability to be with what
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  is, whether it's an emotion, a feeling, an experience, yeah, the experience of life,
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  the inability to be with it, to fully just be with what is, creates a defensive structure
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  to protect us psychologically from what is. So a baby and let's say our original culture doesn't
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  have that hasn't developed that yet. The ability to be with what is,
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  which is what the whole spiritual path is.
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  that the something like the understanding of the Ayurvedic doshas, which has a physiological
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  component to it, as well as a psychological component to it, is less about the ego structure,
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  but more about our actual manifest energy, how life force moves in us.
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  It has got to correlate with what we might call personality,
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  but it's much more physiological. It's how we digest, it's how we perceive,
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  it's how we assimilate. But of course, digestion,
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  perception and assimilation all happen not just physically,
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  they happen mentally and emotionally.
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  So it's the whole system. And I think that, well,
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  you know this as well as I do. If not more so, the Rishi,
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  yeah, the ancient Rishi's, they had deep knowledge of this.
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  And this deep knowledge and deep wisdom served them,
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  not because they were looking at ego structure, but it served them to find balance and harmony
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  on all levels of being. So that is valuable.
• 34:58
  That is valuable to know that. And I don't know if Aboriginal cultures have that.
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  I mean, maybe they do. Maybe it's to do with the,
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  I don't know, whatever song sings them into birth, whatever they have, or whatever, I don't know.
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  - It's probably also the case that the closer you are to harmony,
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  in a harmony and outer harmony, the less concerned you are about what's pulled you away because
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  you're not out of harmony. It's the point of our obsession with everything is that we're
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  out of alignment and harmony within ourselves and outside ourselves because there's only
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  one thing happening. And that causes us, doesn't it? It's that there's the fundamental sort
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  a self-referencing problem. Maybe there isn't a problem at all anyway, but if we feel as if
• 35:52
  there's a problem because we feel disconnected, we feel separate, we feel, and that can apply to
• 35:58
  any of the star signs, let's say. You don't have to be an earth sign or an air sign or a water sign
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  to feel disconnected. You might feel it in your nuanced way, which is the point about knowing
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  yourself know what it is that you know how it is that you feel kind of if you like disconnected
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  it's an easy thing to say but that is alienated is the correct term and there there's the doorway
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  again whereas you know talking glibly about the Aboriginal culture using that as an example
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  of a primal state that is connected within itself. It's harmonious with the outside, with nature,
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  with the cosmos, with the world. Stars don't need to know necessarily what the stars are doing,
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  although that might be useful as well. But actually,
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  it's in relationship all the time to those,
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  whereas that seems to be part of our intrinsic problem.
• 37:03
  Yes, yes. Precisely. Again, it's pointing to the many defence strategies that the...
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  It's not just the modern human being, but as humanity has developed over time,
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  the many defence strategies that... They're like layers of perception, I mean,
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  veils of perception, veil upon veil upon veil of perception that then disconnects us from the
• 37:38
  totality, from the totality of the beingness, that the one beingness that informs us all. And so we
• 37:45
  become more and more reduced into our individual identity. To them, we almost have to go through
• 37:54
  that individual identity to start to move through it. Hence the obsession with what kind of person
• 38:03
  I am and what type I am and if I understood myself more and some of that is counterproductive
• 38:10
  and some of it is valuable. It's again, it's the same thing that we've pointed to in different
• 38:17
  podcast is that if you get stuck in the realm of self, then those systems, that astrology or that
• 38:26
  anyogram or any of those kind of systems can actually, from feeling like they're liberating,
• 38:33
  can actually become the next prison from one prison to another prison. And that's the point,
• 38:39
  is not to get stuck in any of those systems. They're only what are they boats, they're only
• 38:46
  ships to get you to the shore of unity, aren't they?
• 38:50
  Yes, because the danger of that is, well, I know my tight now.
• 38:56
  Yeah. That's who I am. I can't help it. I was born that way, you know, or I was created that way.
• 39:01
  And that that's exactly what you're speaking of. That's not what we're talking about. The
• 39:06
  understanding is it's yeah, to understand the doorway. What is it that I'm holding up? And what
• 39:14
  What is a veil in me? What veil am I looking through?
• 39:18
  Because this is about undoing the veils. That's also a kind of, you know, there's a karmic
• 39:27
  thing in there that you were sort of referring to earlier.
• 39:31
  You know, that is part of the karma. You know, and part of the work,
• 39:36
  if there is any work of each human being, each individuation
• 39:41
  is to realize the nature of their own karmic patterns, which is the strategies and structures
• 39:48
  that you're talking about, not the specifics of one's karma, but actually the fact that one's
• 39:55
  involved in a karmic dance endlessly through the individual patterning that we're talking about.
• 40:03
  And there again, there's the doorway, you wake up to your own kind of karma and something ends.
• 40:09
  But still, because I was going to ask this, I mean, just as we're moving through this,
• 40:16
  I would be really very interested to find out of a survey of all the Awaken teachers, let's say,
• 40:24
  around at the moment to see what star sign they are, what astrological sign they are,
• 40:31
  what's Enneagram, for instance, they are, what Jean Key's type they are. I actually think that
• 40:38
  that that would be a very interesting study to do. And if anybody out there
• 40:43
  wants to take that study on, I challenge you, go and find out, yeah,
• 40:48
  and come back and we'll do a podcast with you. - That's a fabulous PhD project.
• 40:53
  I mean, if I was still in my PhD days, which is a very, very, very long time ago now,
• 40:59
  I would actually make that into an interesting project.
• 41:03
  I mean, I know that somebody like Steve Taylor, who's written a couple of books and
• 41:09
  people may have heard of. He's done some research.
• 41:14
  I don't think it's quite that, but he has done research
• 41:17
  on types of awakening, conditions for awakening, levels, if you like, or intensity of awakening.
• 41:30
  What's been the catalyst? What's been the, not the kind of person,
• 41:35
  but the situation, are there certain situations?
• 41:41
  I think he's done some extensive research into that.
• 41:43
  I don't think it quite goes to the place of examining any agram and genetic coding
• 41:49
  and that's on the whole other level, but it wouldn't be fascinating.
• 41:54
  Yeah, that's, yeah, who knows. - Because, sorry, you're gonna say something.
• 41:59
  - I think all I wanted to say just on that is again to just re-re-affirm.
• 42:07
  What we're really speaking about is bringing light to the shadow, bringing light to those areas
• 42:17
  in ourselves that we can call shadow realms, but that which we can't see,
• 42:22
  the veils of perception, the layers of defense strategies,
• 42:28
  everything that prevents us from knowing, The one beingness that informs us all,
• 42:37
  that is beyond this individuation. So it really is about bringing light to that.
• 42:44
  So anything that assists in it is helpful, but it's not a reason or an excuse to re-identify
• 42:54
  with that self and say, "Oh yeah, this is me, this is how I am and I can't help it."
• 43:00
  Yes. No, I mean, let me just, I can bear testimony to that as well because, you know,
• 43:06
  when I've discovered as you've helped me, because you know quite a lot about astrology,
• 43:11
  you know, and allowed me to see the nature of my picy and moon, which means, you know,
• 43:16
  many different things, tendency to merge with things, tendency to get addicted to things,
• 43:21
  et cetera, et cetera. And they'll go and rise. You know, all these things, as an aquarium,
• 43:27
  know, to understand some of the aspects of myself and then as an I-viddic type, to be
• 43:34
  a vata, very prone to flightiness, very prone to anxiety, very prone to fear and mind running
• 43:41
  off into the things. And all of those things have been absolutely exquisitely valuable to me.
• 43:49
  And on the other hand, I haven't made a blind bit of difference to any awakening that has
• 43:53
  happened here because I still had to meet the very fact of life, the very fact of my experience,
• 43:58
  the very fact of the, you know, that I want to kind of strategize
• 44:04
  a way to survive psychologically in this world. And I've had to
• 44:08
  meet that regardless of any type that I am. And there's the rub.
• 44:13
  Yes. Again, I go back to the beginning of our conversation, which is this delicate dance between
• 44:19
  the two. I would say that, and again, I can't be absolutely certain, but I'm positing that the
• 44:26
  many different forms of expression that we find in various awakened individuals, awakened teachers,
• 44:39
  spiritual teachers of which there is an increasing plethora,
• 44:44
  the many different flavors of that isn't because there's a different
• 44:49
  type of awakening. But because of this unique way that it has taken
• 44:56
  place and the unique structure that has been the very doorway for that awakening, and therefore it
• 45:06
  gets slightly expressed slightly differently for each individual. That's why as, and I'm speaking
• 45:15
  now to those seekers who may see this teacher and that teacher or jump around from this one
• 45:22
  or this YouTube or that one say, "Oh, well, that one's got it. That one hasn't got it."
• 45:26
  This one says it like this. This one says it like that. And they're either confused by it
• 45:32
  or they're comparing it or so on and so on. I'm saying, "This is why," because it's
• 45:40
  uniquely coming through, not only coming through the expression of this particular vehicle,
• 45:47
  but also in the way that it took place, the doorway that it took place. But it's always
• 45:53
  pointing if it's a genuine awakening to the same. So we have to have a very broad view.
• 46:02
  And once we have an understanding of the myriad of incarnations and individuations,
• 46:10
  and everything that we're speaking about here, then we're less likely to compare,
• 46:18
  criticize, elevate, denigrate, but actually listen to that,
• 46:23
  which is beyond the expression, if you like. 'Cause it really is gonna be different for each.
• 46:31
  Each, it was like each flower. Each flower is unique.
• 46:37
  And yet each fragrance is unique. And yet there's something universal,
• 46:43
  flowerness, the fragrance of flowerness is universal.
• 46:47
  The nectar is the same. - Oh, they all come from the same garden.
• 46:52
  - Yeah, but they're all different. - Well, this is very good
• 46:56
  because right at the beginning of this podcast, I was gonna reverse engineer
• 47:01
  what we were talking about and say that, Yes, the doorway through oneself,
• 47:09
  through ones whatever doorway that we discussed
• 47:12
  is gonna be a different doorway to the same garden,
• 47:16
  let's say, as a metaphor. But then, you're just saying,
• 47:21
  this was reverse engineering, but then the expression of that garden
• 47:27
  is always still going to come through the individual,
• 47:33
  with all of its characteristics. Yes.
• 47:37
  I mean, I've seen so many different teachers, and it is easy to get into a kind of
• 47:42
  comparison thing, whatever, you know,
• 47:45
  it's sort of almost part of the nature. Go.
• 47:49
  It's also easy to say this is the way you do it. Yes.
• 47:54
  If you follow this practice, if you follow this scripture,
• 48:00
  If you follow this teaching, if you follow this tradition, if you follow this method,
• 48:07
  you're going to get there. And that's not true.
• 48:12
  Because that's alluding to what we're speaking of now.
• 48:15
  The doorway is always unique. You have to know thyself is
• 48:20
  more important than which practice you follow or which tradition you follow.
• 48:26
  the answer. I agree with that. There is one size fits all.
• 48:30
  No, because what might work for one and then another applies that and thinks, well, I've
• 48:37
  worked for them, then it must work for me and they spend their life banging their head
• 48:41
  against the wall thinking that that's the way to liberation. Although ended up with,
• 48:46
  is a very sore head. It hasn't kind of worked because their way was utterly different.
• 48:56
  Yes, and then there is the direct way, which is the pointing to the primary mechanism of ego,
• 49:03
  which is resistance to what is. That cuts through all this. Resistance to what is,
• 49:12
  is the primary mechanism. That resistance and the way the mechanism operates and the conditions
• 49:18
  in which it operates and the situations and relationships within which it operates is going
• 49:25
  to be unique for each individual. But we must see that within ourselves.
• 49:35
  And then that's not a method that's a clear seeing. It's clear seeing of the core structure
• 49:40
  of ego. Get to the root and talk about the roots. It's the root. But we often can't get to the
• 49:46
  root until we've actually seen and worked through the various layers. Again, it all comes down to
• 49:54
  surrender, not surrender to anything, but the surrender of the defence structures.
• 49:59
  Yes, but this is very true because, you know, the reason that we brought this podcast to the table
• 50:07
  is not some titillation. It's also because you know, whereas you just
• 50:12
  demolish most of the podcasts by saying just get to the root. But actually, it's not a
• 50:17
  titillation to discuss these things because actually, you know, self-knowledge on this level
• 50:22
  that we're talking about, yeah, is almost, it is primary, it is in there because the deeper that
• 50:31
  that you can go into self-knowing, the more likely something is to open.
• 50:36
  It just does, it just starts to open doorways. And those doorways at some
• 50:41
  point are gonna open you to the fact that you have to
• 50:45
  face something very core about yourself.
• 50:49
  It won't happen unless it comes as a bolt of lightning,
• 50:53
  which I wouldn't wait for that. I don't think that's worth waiting for,
• 50:58
  because it's not somewhere else, it's in you, but this self-knowing, that's why
• 51:03
  that's such a fundamentally profound statement. Know thyself means know who you are,
• 51:10
  know your characteristics, know your defense mechanism,
• 51:13
  know your strategies, know your weaknesses, know your strength, and all of that kind of stuff,
• 51:20
  don't identify with it, it's what you've done
• 51:22
  in the past, but beyond putting-- - Well, then while you see the structures
• 51:27
  make up this defended, I don't know, whatever, self, whether it's a fearful self or an angry
• 51:36
  self or a striving self or a lonely self, they're all defensive, structured, defended
• 51:42
  structures. The more you see that, the more you really, you know, not just see it, but
• 51:50
  feel it, the more you come to see the prison, the more you come to experience it as a prison.
• 51:58
  And then there's a willingness to be free of that, not by fixing it or changing your personality.
• 52:04
  But that's what brings you closer to the root of it, which is universal root, the resistance
• 52:11
  to what is, the craving and aversion that wraps itself around this moment, this moment,
• 52:19
  moment. But that's what brings you close to it. That's what brings you to the core. Without that,
• 52:29
  there's no prison to see. The prison's just operating unconsciously.
• 52:34
  Maybe there's some vague sense that there's something more or
• 52:38
  some more happiness or some more peace or something. Or some idea of enlightenment,
• 52:43
  which is just a striving of the self for another persona,
• 52:46
  another mask and other identity. Yeah, so we have to go in and in
• 52:51
  and in. And this is what I mean by, and I think you've heard me say this,
• 52:58
  you have to be sick and tired of yourself. Yes. You've bought something and shipped. And
• 53:02
  that sick and tired of yourself isn't just some glib kind of, "Oh God, I wish I was different."
• 53:08
  And I'm not happy with my personality. No, No, no, no, never mind your personality.
• 53:14
  Just sick and tired of the various veils and strategies
• 53:18
  that play themselves out over and over again to protect you from what?
• 53:23
  To protect you from the rawness of this moment, as all it is, the aliveness of this moment
• 53:31
  that is inherent in this moment because it is absolutely as it is.
• 53:36
  That's when you're sick and tired of it. You're sick and tired of the defendedness,
• 53:41
  The strategies, the layers, then something can shift, then something can open.
• 53:49
  That's the openness or the permeability of the ego structure that we started with.
• 53:55
  Whether you're born with a more permeable ego structure, whether you've become more
• 54:00
  permeable in your ego structure because actually you're more broken.
• 54:04
  Brokenness can go two ways. you can identify with that brokenness
• 54:08
  and then you become a trauma identified person, a poor me and a victim
• 54:13
  and that can stay like that. Or brokenness can be the doorway to permeability.
• 54:19
  - It can, yes, very much so. - As they say,
• 54:27
  what was it, the wounds or the cracks or whether light gets in on the wound?
• 54:32
  - Yeah, yeah, so roomy and Lenna Cohen, The wound is where the light gets in, the cracks,
• 54:38
  yeah, and the beauty is in the cracks. I think you said it very,
• 54:45
  very well there, I think. And maybe we should take that to kind of,
• 54:52
  as a conclusion, yeah? One thing I feel the call to do is to say
• 54:59
  that if anybody listening has never checked out their gene
• 55:03
  keys and human design. I don't know. There's just something absolutely exquisite about
• 55:12
  it. You get so much self-knowledge in it. You get to know what your lower states are if
• 55:20
  you like. It's just a great doorway. And Richard Rudd, who downloaded and pretty much created,
• 55:29
  I think put together the gene keys based on the human design system is a genius and well worthy
• 55:37
  of anybody's attention. We met him once and he gave us a reading and it was profound,
• 55:44
  I have to say, it was profound and has lived with us and lit something within us, particularly in a
• 55:51
  motor that has lasted and that was over 20 years ago and it still stayed and it's a perennial
• 55:59
  truth. We don't use it as a system but it doesn't need to be because it's just a living
• 56:04
  truth somehow. I just want to say, you know, and if there's one person I would love to talk
• 56:12
  to on this podcast and Richard Raadever heard this, I would so love to hear his genius
• 56:21
  wisdom because it's just fantastic system. Anything else to say, Emo, at this stage?
• 56:31
  No, I think that's enough. Yeah, I think it is enough. I actually, on some certain level,
• 56:37
  think we've only just kind of scratched the surface of this. But we'll see what happens
• 56:44
  whether we come back to it or not, or probably move on in our inimitable aquarium way. We'll
• 56:50
  move on to something else, some other juicy subject. I hope people got some value out of this.
• 56:57
  So, I hope it's hot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, don't take it as a truth or anything. It's just
• 57:05
  the possibility of an exploration deeper inside because the fundamental thing is to know oneself
• 57:11
  and not to get too attached to that knowing. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you, Amoda. That
• 57:19
  was a beautiful juicy conversation. I always love speaking to you, as you know. Take care, everyone.
• 57:29
  Don't forget to subscribe, like the podcast, share it wherever you can, and we'll see you again
• 57:35
  as soon as possible for another podcast with Emoto tomorrow. Take care. Goodbye. Namaste. Namaste.
• 57:52
  (gentle music) [music]