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The Philosophy of Pan-Africanism · Think Twice Show

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And Krumar had this idea of United Africa, an international
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army, an African court, and Africa was economically
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independent. Those things don't feel that.
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Far fetched and that's where I'm not sure.
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Many of the politicians, they think how can I enrich myself
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and that's what affects the longevity and the long term
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success of Pan Africanism. If I take GBP back home by like
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2 plots of land, I'm the new gentrifier, I'm the new
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coloniser. I.
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Don't really see it like that. Welcome to Think Twice.
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Your favourite show is favourite show.
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My name is Ben. My name is Sam Teff.
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And today we're discussing Pan Africanism.
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I can't lie, I'm excited. Which I think our audience will
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enjoy it. Obviously previously we've
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discussed a lot of Greek philosophies and we've discussed
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very Western philosophies and this is obviously real close to
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our heart and really important to both of us and we want to try
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and do it just service. 100% but they're smarter.
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People than us, there are people that spent more time on this
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than us. So where your introduction to
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this for you to then go and do more research?
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We're going to lean on them, man Heavy.
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Exactly. So I'll start with the
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definition of Pan Africanism for you to understand where we're
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going with this. Pan Africanism is the belief in
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unity, solidarity and the collective progress of people of
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African descent. Absolutely.
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And Pan Africanism has sort of had a long history in which it's
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branched out into various different things.
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But there's the the sort of notion within Pan Africanism
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that Africa should be free of colonial and neo colonial rule.
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Absolutely. And what I saw this is kind of
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like my take, really like from when I was, like, looking at a
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lot of it. Yeah.
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That there's radical change involved in most pan Africanist
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sort of thought and theory. Yeah, that's generally why
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people like Martin Luther King, even though I guess he supports
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people of African descent and has obviously a major role in
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all of this in America, isn't considered a pan Africanist
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because he sort of obviously support the civil rights in
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America. But it wasn't a radical change.
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It wasn't an overhaul of the current system, if that makes
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sense. Yeah.
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And in addition to that, I guess it wasn't about people of
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African descent globally exactly.
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It was a very African American struggle exactly.
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Not to say that it didn't have an impact for black people
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globally. Yeah, it was obviously
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beneficial hydrogen, but he's not necessarily considering a
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pan Africanist. Yeah, yeah, correct.
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And obviously Pan Africanism in today's society is spoken about
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on the Internet a lot by very funny, charismatic people.
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Yeah, not to mention any names. And generally like what they
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speak about is how does it work basically, and like certain
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nuances within the diaspora and how they should behave and who
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they should marry and the rest of it.
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So that brings us to our first question.
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Can Pan Africanism work in the modern world?
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Absolutely it can. I think it it works both as a
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philosophy and a mode of thinking, but also as a force
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for social and political change. And I think that Pan Africanism
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has examples of it working in the past, but also today, which
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is why I think the answer is absolutely, yeah, it can work in
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the modern world. Yeah, I I 100% agree with you.
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Maybe we get into like some of the pillars of Pan Africanism
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and we talk about how Pan Africanism maybe manifested
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itself in the past and also manifested itself today.
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I think that might be useful. Yeah, yeah, 100%.
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I think some of the some of the key people in Pan African
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thought are actually from diaspora.
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So Wev Dubois from America, he was an African American who was
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a political thinker, writer, journalist, and he spoke about
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the African American experience as black people in the diaspora.
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Marcus Garvey is another very influential figure who is
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associated with Pan Africanism. He was a Jamaican journalist
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who. Also OPS by the way.
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Yeah, he came to America whilst WEB the voice.
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He was more of an intellectual who's thought about the
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philosophy of of the black experience.
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Marcus Garvey was someone who favoured action on the ground
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and his mode of operation was Black Power and Black
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nationalism, which advocated for black people to establish their
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own source of power both economically and politically and
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stand as one united nation at 4 black people.
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So that required separation from white culture in America and a
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return back to Africa. Whereas WEB the boys advocated
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for black humanity and rights to be recognised in America where
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they were. So that was a an ideological
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split between the two people at the time in America.
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And to jump on the back of that WEB, the boys was what we would
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understand today as sort of black excellence.
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He wrote a book called the Talented Temp, which basically
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was the concept that the top 10% like the doctors, the lawyers,
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the engineers intellectually should lead the rest of the 90%
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that were black. Whilst like Marcus Garvey was
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sort of like they can't really speak for the experience of
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those 90%. They don't understand the
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experience of those 90%. And then as a result, they
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shouldn't be leading anybody. Correct.
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And I think that that was one of Marcus Garvey's biggest gripes
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with WEB Du Bois. He accused them of trying to be
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a white man Actually, that was, you know, part of their beef
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included a lot of like, polemic letters back and forth, and they
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cussed each other out. It was tea.
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It was tea. No, it's not hyper.
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Not tea. You know what?
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I mean, man is Marcus Garvey isn't from America.
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He was born in Jamaica, right? And he came over to America and
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it was actually to support WB, the boys. 100%.
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And W, the boys sort of rejected him.
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Yeah, yeah. So moved.
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From me, he didn't get the welcome from WB the boys that he
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expected. So it it did turn better I guess
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all of this to say these two people were considered pan
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Africanists. They were both considered as
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people who for and were activists for the plight of
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black, black people in both America and worldwide.
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But it it displays the, the various, like different modes of
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thought within Pan Africanism. Yeah, you, you can achieve the
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same goal via different means. And these two people who lived
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at the same time together in America, they buttered heads
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massively about how that would be achieved.
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And and that's why that question can Pan Africanism work in the
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modern world? It's such a poignant question
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because the critique to that is, well, you don't have an aligned
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system. You don't have an aligned way to
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make it work. There's not one way, yeah.
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There's not one way to make it work.
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So if there's not one way to make it work, how can it work?
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Do you want to sort of explain how you think that to be true?
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Well, I kind of want to hear your answer to your question.
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First, let me just push the *** Around the corner.
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Now I want to hear your argument first because that you might
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present me with some holes that I can dig that would give me
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time to think about the question you just asked.
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Me Well, can it work in the modern world, we, we have to
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sort of look at what work means, right?
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So, OK, can it work in the sense that it is culturally
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significant and people think about Africa, they decolonize
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their mind and remove themselves from Western structures that
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have been imposed on them, Correct?
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Yeah, most definitely. So culturally, you think?
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Culturally, it can definitely work.
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Can it work politically at scale?
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And that's where I'm not sure, just because there's something
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called the race condition, basically where I watch the
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NFLI, watch American football a lot.
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So I'll give you a little bit of context to this thought process,
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and you can probably put this in different scenarios.
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People are put in positions right at a company.
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In the NFL, they're put as AGM, or in the NBA they're put as
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AGM. People have made bad draft
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decisions for as long as the NFL, as long as the NBA has run
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for. And the reason why they've made
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these decisions is because they don't have job security they
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need for it to be good in the moment while they're there.
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So if I sell the franchise, if the franchise is dead in 10
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years, I'm not here in 10 years. And So what actually matters is
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now, and that condition still effects Africa, that many of the
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politicians, many of those in leadership see themselves as.
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Can I enrich my selves now? Right now, many politicians
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basically borrow to get leadership, people fund them.
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When they get into leadership, they have to pay these people
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back. And so they think, how can I
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enrich myself in order to stay in this position of power?
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And that's what affects the longevity and the long term
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success of Pan Africanism. I hear that on the African
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continent. On the African continent, and
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that's the sort of my critique. And until we're able to think
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sacrificially in leadership a little bit because because that
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that is what it's going to take, some people will have to
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sacrifice not being able to live as fruitfully as they might do
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currently in order for there to be progress in the future.
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That is what I think is the the biggest critique to it.
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At the moment, yeah. But I think I think there have
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been African leaders in the past.
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And Krumar, Patrice Lamumba, Thomas Sankara, all of these
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people were that mode of politician that you would say is
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somewhat sacrificial. He's not using the position of
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power to enrich himself, he themselves even or free of them.
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They're using that position to for the benefit of the people.
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It's possible, but but these leaders get deposed, they get
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they get ousted by Western powers.
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They have been in the past and it's still happening today.
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So if the West is still like influencing that, surely we
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can't say that Africa has had the opportunity to test Pan
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Africanism across the entire continent.
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Do you get what I'm saying? That the chance hasn't been
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there because the Europe has broad blocked that because a
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free independent Africa is a threat to the West and it turns
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off the money tap that is Africa.
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I don't think it's one or the other.
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I I think both of those things are part of the reason why it
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struggles to work at scale. I I I wasn't saying it cannot
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work like. The idea of course, of course.
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Could possibly work, but what it takes for it to work
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politically? Yeah, I don't know, but I would.
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We say that about European leaders.
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We wouldn't say that about European leaders.
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Their desire to enrich themselves at the cost of their
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people gets in the way of their country's progress.
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We wouldn't say that about European leader.
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The difference is between the the West and Africa is that for
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example, those Nigerian politicians are using the wealth
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of the nation to make their money whilst those Western
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leaders are able to use those free markets that they all love.
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Yeah, I guess. It's not, it's.
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Not a developing situation. They're not using the nation's
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resources in order to enrich themselves in the same way.
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Well, let me, let me try and explain how I think Pan
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Africanism can work right in Kruma.
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He's, he was the 1st Prime Minister of Ghana.
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He had this vision. He, he was one of the founding
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forces of Pan Africanism. Now we've, we mentioned Garv, we
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mentioned WEB, the boys, there were people before them that
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contributed to Pan African thought.
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There were people at who lived the same time as them, like in
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Kruma, and there have been people since who all
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collectively contribute to what we consider Pan Africanism to
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be. And Criminal was one of the
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founding fathers of Pan Africanism on the African
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continent, right. And I think it's very important
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for us to centre people on the African continent as well, as
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well as the African American voices, the diaspora voice
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voices. Yeah.
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He liberated Ghana for all intents and purposes, right?
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He had this idea of a united Africa that yes, eradicated
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Western forces, but also returned to an Africa that kind
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of resembled the Africa that was pre colonial.
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One of the critiques of Pan Africanism is that it's a
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response to colonial influences, right?
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It's not even a. It is.
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It is a response. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So like obviously, you know, the colonial forces in Africa have
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left the legacy of, you know, a society and infrastructure and
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culture that has been influenced negatively by by the West.
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And Kruma had this idea of United Africa that yes, they had
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political alliances. They also had a joint like
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African Defence, right, an international army, right?
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Much like, you know, the UN or something like that.
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There was an African court, right, that legislated on
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African issues and Africa was economically independent.
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Now, to me, if those things came true, that would resemble a
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success for the Pan African, Pan African project, right?
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They also don't feel that far fetched.
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Like, I appreciate that there are some legacies of colonialism
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that we have to keep, right? You can't go to Burkina Faso and
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say no one's going to speak French anymore, right?
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French is the official language right now and it's going to take
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time to transition away from French.
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Obviously, like a major part of Pan Africanism is to decolonize
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the mind. But.
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That's more of an awareness than a removal because you can't
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remove those scars that are there.
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Do you get what I mean? Like can't remove the scars.
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It's it's more of an awareness than anything.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do.
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I do. I do think you're absolutely
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right. And like, for example, the
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language thing, right? If you're speaking French,
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understanding what the context of that is, that to me is a
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fine, like situation. It's not that bad.
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Yeah. Like, yeah, it's not great.
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Like you would have rather had your African tongue that you had
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prior to the French coming there.
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But you know, we're here now, right?
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We understand each other through that is fine, but there's an
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infrastructure like economically that you do need to actively get
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rid of, like it's actively harmful today and you need to
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get rid of it. So like like Ibrahim Shorey is
15:04
like rejected IMF money and he actually has plans to create a
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brand new currency within Africa, right?
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Because one of the ways the Western powers dominate Africa
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is, you know, by devaluing African currencies and allowing
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the Western currencies to buy. To remain dominant.
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To remain dominant over them. So when you get loans derived in
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the Western currency, it decimates African countries.
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So Abraham Charre, he's 1 of Burkina Faso's, one of three
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countries that have formed an alliance called the Alliance of
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Sahil States, right? And that's Burkina Faso, Mali
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and and Niger. And they want to create their
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own currency. So it's literally kind of
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happening right now, right? And you can see the expansion of
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that alliance across all of Africa and the creation of an
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African currency, perhaps, right?
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And yes, we might not be able to get rid of the borders that the
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West created during the Berlin Conference, but we can increase
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the amount of collaboration between countries in a way
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that's not like rival nation states.
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It's more collaborative, right? And you defend each other
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against infiltrating forces and you help each other
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economically, You know, you open up trade lines, etcetera.
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That doesn't seem too far. Fetched to me, it doesn't
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either. Right.
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What makes you think that the Pan African project is is not
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necessarily. Realistic historically like the
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idea that humans come together and and work for this solution
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it it just hasn't happened like. But I'm telling you, it's
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happening right now as we speak that.
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The alliance was at scale, right?
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That's what I was talking. I was talking about largely.
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I wasn't talking about three countries out of 55.
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We have to start somewhere, Yeah, of.
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Course I'm not. I'm not saying that.
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I'm not saying that it can't work.
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Yeah, I'm not a judge. Yeah, not me doing it.
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Like, if we want to be a judge, hopefully it works, right?
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You know what I mean? But we're basically looking at
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something that hasn't happened before and then I'm meant to be
17:02
optimistic about it happening. We've tried to make it happen.
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And Kruma tried to do that. Even Gaddafi, you know,
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Gaddafi's problematic, but Gaddafi's trying to do it and,
17:14
and didn't and wasn't successful.
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You get what I mean? So it's it's not, it's not
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solely that I don't want it to work.
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Of course I want it to work. But like realistically, can it
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work at scale? Pan Africanism can work like,
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but can it work at scale for the whole of Africa and for the goal
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to be achieved politically? I'm not so sure you've.
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Got your doubts and I think I think having doubts is is
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absolutely fair enough. But can it, can it work
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ideologically? Yeah.
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And. We're for sure.
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Yeah. And we're in control of that.
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And that can work at scale, like massively at scale.
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It really needs the Internet like really to propagate
17:50
cultural ideas and modes of thinking.
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For sure. I'd, I'd appreciate the
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political aspect of it and economic aspect of it is far
17:58
more challenging and it's going to take a lot more time.
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But I think Ibrahim Chara is a great example of someone who's
18:05
doing that right now and he can bring the Pan African project to
18:09
fruition in the near future. I I genuinely do believe that
18:13
what he's achieved in like 3 years is like.
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I'm hopeful too. Like I'm hopeful.
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Some of these politicians. Nasty people, man.
18:22
I can't, I can't lie there. There are some despicable,
18:26
despicable politicians, but they're they're propped up by
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what's the money, bro? And the moment that tap dries up
18:32
and Nigeria finds a newer form of economy, I think their time's
18:39
done. Their time's done.
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That brings us nicely on to the second question.
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What? Role should the diaspora play in
18:52
Africa's future? This question I'm denied about
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it quite a lot. I think the diaspora should play
19:01
a key role in Africa's future. I actually think in the Pan
19:05
African project, diaspora and Africans and Africans on the
19:08
actual continent geographically should be working hand in hand
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and I think the diaspora has a unique perspective, expertise
19:16
and resources that can help Africa in unique ways.
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However, the way some African diasporans have interacted with
19:26
Africans on the continent gives me a lot of like angst.
19:31
Cause for concern? Cause for big fucking concern
19:33
bro. And it makes me feel like
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perhaps us as diasporans, we should play an auxiliary role
19:40
and a secondary role to Africans on the continent and let them
19:44
lead from the front and we help where we can.
19:47
That's potentially where I am right now, and I'll explain that
19:49
in a bit more detail. What do you think?
19:51
Where, where, Where do you think we lie?
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I think we we play a huge role in like the ideological shift
20:00
and perception of Africa, right? And you know how I feel about
20:05
people who haven't gone back to Africa but like visit Thailand
20:07
and that I don't love it. Love it.
20:11
Or Vietnam. I'm actually so sorry.
20:17
I'm so I'm so sorry. So, like, what about boys?
20:22
Like, he hasn't been back home. And he went to Vietnam recently.
20:26
And it actually hurts my heart. Like, I just don't.
20:28
I can't get with it. Like.
20:30
And I just think there's so much to explore there.
20:33
Yeah. And if I, if I think
20:35
ideologically OK, how can we implement this?
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What role did the diaspora play? And the role is to go visit
20:43
Africa, go spend your capital in Africa.
20:47
A strong Africa will change the way you're perceived in the
20:52
current world. And once they understand that,
20:56
like, China wasn't always seen as the superpower.
20:59
It was, of course. It's a recent shift.
21:01
It's a recent shift, right, because they've been able to
21:04
create things like TikTok, BYD, etcetera.
21:07
And that shift can also happen in Africa, like so if, if we
21:12
understand that that shift can happen.
21:14
So what, what can I do, me small self here in London?
21:17
What can I do to impact that? Go home and visit.
21:20
Like people love to speak about a separatist sort of notions and
21:25
the rest of it. That's not what's important
21:28
here. What's important is going home,
21:32
visiting, spending time. They're like, people like Marcus
21:34
Garvey didn't go back to Africa. People like Marcus Garvey met
21:38
with the KKK. It's actually bonkers, isn't?
21:42
It, that was actually one of the voice's like massive cruxes with
21:47
him that he met with the K&K and I can't lie, like obviously
21:50
Garvey and the boys were going back and forth.
21:52
The boys called him, clapped. Garvey said.
21:54
You want to be a white man? The boys called him the most
21:57
dangerous brother in America right now, or a lunatic, he said
22:02
at the start of an article. Then when you read down the
22:05
article, he actually just said he's both.
22:09
So they went back and forth, back and forth.
22:11
But I can't like Garvey. As soon as you meet with the
22:13
KKK, you lose. Yeah, you lose.
22:14
Yeah, that's an help. And so there are these sort of
22:19
notions around pan Africanism, yeah, that I just sort of think
22:24
are a little bit futile, a little bit lost in the whole
22:27
idea of improving Africa as a continent.
22:31
And I think the role the diaspora can play is not to get
22:35
involved in all of those things, but is to genuinely try and
22:40
spend your capital in Africa and spend time in Africa and
22:44
ideologically shift that Africa is not a weak place.
22:49
Do you understand what I mean? And once you sort of get that
22:52
ideological shift, that's when those political shifts can take
22:56
place. Eventually, maybe not in our
22:58
lifetime, but eventually I have. Some concerns though with the
23:02
spending of capital in Africa, right?
23:05
And it's not a direct like I, I agree with what you're saying
23:09
generally speaking, but my issue is when the aspirants go on to
23:14
Africa and spend capital that displaces Africans who are born
23:21
in that country. Kind of two issues with this.
23:24
That's one issue the the displacement of Africans using
23:28
essentially waste of money. Right.
23:30
Yeah. But I do think there's an
23:31
ethical way to do this. I'm not saying that you
23:34
shouldn't spend money in in in, in Africa.
23:37
I think we just need to be very conscious of that displacement.
23:40
And I also do have a wider issue with capitalism as a concept in
23:44
Africa. And I actually think Pan
23:47
Africanism on some level doesn't have enough of an intersectional
23:51
critique, right? It's got a critique of race and
23:55
it's got a very good critique of colonialism, but I don't think
23:58
it's got a good enough critique of gender, class and capitalism.
24:01
And one of the things of like what the diaspora has done,
24:05
especially over the last 10-15 years, is bring capitalism to
24:09
Africa, right? Bring black business or black
24:13
prosperity, black money to Africa and just do capitalism
24:17
again in Africa. Right now, capitalism is already
24:21
in Africa. But my, my, my concern is if
24:25
we're building a new vision for Africa and we're saying the
24:28
Parent Pan African project is for the prosperity of Africans,
24:32
I think we need to move away from capitalism.
24:34
Like that's, that's like a we'll bring in another person that we
24:38
should have maybe mentioned earlier, But Kwame Toure
24:41
basically talks about that a lot, right?
24:42
He was an African American who was initially called Stokely
24:46
Carmichael and then changed his name.
24:48
He speaks that it's inherently socialist, correct?
24:52
You cannot be a pan Africanist and not be a socialist at the
24:56
same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:57
And, and Krumar's also a big proponent of socialism.
25:01
And to him, not only is capitalism the actual form of
25:06
exploitation in Africa, and capitalism requires African
25:10
bodies to be sacrificed and exploited for it to work right.
25:14
We know that to be the truth today.
25:16
We know that like a kid needs to go and mine cobalt in toxic
25:22
waters for us to have iPhones, right?
25:25
We know that someone needs to be at the bottom of the the food
25:28
chain doing disgusting exploitative work for capitalism
25:31
to work. And for that reason the new
25:34
Africa Pan Africanism needs to be anti capitalist, right?
25:39
But in Krumar, he also thought that socialism was African in
25:44
essence because of what Africa was before colonialism, right
25:49
Before colonialism, we we had a mode of living in Africa that
25:52
was communal, right? It was egalitarian by nature and
25:57
it didn't have the hierarchy of capitalism and patriarchy.
26:01
And he made this link between Marxism and communism and
26:05
socialism to what Africa used to be.
26:08
And he thought that that was a, a viable mode of economics for
26:12
that reason, because it, it links to what Africa used to be.
26:15
And in that sense, he, he manages to like, bring, bring it
26:20
all together. Do you know what I mean?
26:21
Yes, he's a Pan Africanist who has to deal with the
26:23
consequences of colonialism, but he also manages to address the
26:27
fact that Africa was its own entity prior to colonialism.
26:30
And I think that's a nice way that Nkrumah brings that theory
26:33
together. Obviously there are problems
26:34
with it but that sort of makes him my favourite Pan Africanist
26:38
because he addresses both the race and colonial part of it but
26:41
also the anti capitalist nature of Pan African.
26:46
Pan Africanism. Do you have a favourite Pan
26:48
Africanist? I guess like and Kruma sorta
26:53
gets it if I had to choose one, but his economic policies really
26:58
struggled. A lot of it was a timing though,
27:00
like he was. He tried to move the Ghanaian
27:04
economy and transform it, some would say too quickly and at a
27:09
time where like the price of Ghana's main export had crashed.
27:14
So it was like he was, he kind of got hit on 2 fronts.
27:16
It's tough though, because like when we look at all of these
27:20
sort of thinkers or figures or figures, they're all about
27:25
liberation, and liberation by definition is imperfect.
27:30
And then there's just so many imperfections in the outcome.
27:33
Do you know what I mean? But to have the courage and the
27:39
sort of desire to to create that much change, I think is
27:43
important. Right.
27:44
So 100%. It's it's commendable. 100% I
27:47
agree. I agree.
27:53
All right, cool. On to the last segment.
27:55
On to the dilemma. You're offered a partnership
27:59
with a multinational corporation, promising rapid
28:01
development, job creation, and improved resources, with a
28:05
commitment to sustainability and supporting local businesses.
28:09
However, these goals may be difficult to achieve.
28:12
Alternatively, you could focus on a slower local development,
28:16
offering more control and sustainability, but with slower
28:19
economic returns. Do you take the immediate gains
28:22
or pursue a longer, more sustainable path?
28:25
I go for the sustainable path, I think.
28:27
I think clearly like going with the multinational corporation is
28:32
like, it sounds like it's going to be rife with problems and
28:36
potential exploitation. But it kind of goes back to your
28:40
initial point, right, that there are some leaders in Africa that
28:43
may be choosing the fast path. And I think it's clear, like
28:48
it's, it's obvious that the multinational corporations what,
28:51
what's going to happen. You've got to go slow, you've
28:53
got to go sustainable, you've got to rearrange the economy.
28:57
We've got to start from scratch in a sense.
29:00
So it's going to take longer, it's going to be harder, but you
29:03
don't. Want to go through it?
29:03
The multinational corporation has a commitment to
29:07
sustainability and supporting local businesses.
29:11
But do you just historically not believe them so you don't go
29:14
through it? Is that what you're saying?
29:15
Yeah, I mean I'm like my opinion is coloured by the fact that
29:19
we're talking about Pan Africanism and like you know,
29:20
we're talking about colonialism and neo colonialism which is
29:24
very much propagated by companies.
29:26
It used to be propagated by nation states colonising Africa,
29:29
now it's propagated by companies who exploit Africa.
29:32
So it feels like the dilemma's pointing to that.
29:35
Do you know what I mean? Even though the wording is not
29:37
actually explicitly that, I'm just suspicious.
29:39
Do you know what I mean? So what path do you take?
29:43
I'm so torn. Like, because you want to change
29:47
people's lives quickly, right? Like yeah, you want to you want
29:50
to create change. Quickly, but there's always a
29:53
cost to that. You're opening your doors like
29:56
you're opening. Your doors.
29:57
You. Know you're busing it open and
29:59
they're going to take well, they're going to get.
30:01
This they might get this that's that's the whole point of this
30:04
dilemma, right They might get this and me you know, I think
30:09
like I can stay in control and stuff like bro yeah you know,
30:16
like, you know, I think I can handle people, you know like you
30:20
know, I'm good in the management role so.
30:22
This one, they're going to cook you in a boardroom, they're
30:25
going to fire you up, they're going to hit you on legalese.
30:30
They're like, I like to think I would be able to do that.
30:33
No, I hear. It, I hear.
30:34
It I like to think that that would, I would take that and you
30:38
think you've got the pattern, but really and truly I've got
30:41
the pattern. You know what I mean?
30:43
That's what I would go for. Yeah, but you know, when you
30:47
even if you've got a pack the drop on them, when you like walk
30:51
into the courtroom and you realise that they got like 50
30:54
lawyers all ready to just cook you, you're going to be like,
30:59
why did I do this? Why don't I just stick with my
31:02
people? Why did I let them come in
31:04
there? But yeah, snakes do you.
31:07
Do you see the approach you take to it?
31:11
I take like a glass half full sort approach whilst yours is
31:15
like a glass half empty sort of approach.
31:18
That's a mad way to characterise what I'm doing.
31:25
That was good. I don't like it.
31:26
I'll give it. I'll give.
31:26
It to you. To be fair, you might be all
31:29
right with them because the way you're moving today.
31:31
What do you mean by that? Sorry, you want to explain that
31:35
point. Yeah, I do.
31:36
The way you just tricked me and just you, you coated it up
31:41
nicely for me that I was ready to drink the glass.
31:45
I was like, where's the glass? But that's what I mean, because
31:48
like you, the way you sort of said that at the end is like
31:53
they're going to take from you, right?
31:54
And. I just think that.
31:57
Now that I think I can do you on this.
31:59
The reason why I think that is because it's a multinational
32:01
corporation. And historically, yeah,
32:04
historically, that is the way they've had success, right?
32:06
Correct. And their underlying fingers
32:08
like profit, so they have to get it somewhere.
32:12
I'm not willing to be exploited for their for their game, but.
32:14
Obviously, like I, I want to see the people that I care about do
32:19
well, do you get what I mean? And enjoy the fruits of their
32:23
nation, right. That's, that's what you want to
32:25
see as well. Like it's, it's all good and
32:27
well-being Like in 100 years, my great, great grandchildren might
32:33
have success and like enjoy it. I do kind of want to see at
32:36
least my children enjoy it. Do you know what I mean?
32:38
Yeah, but you know, like how the people feel sometimes the
32:44
material benefit is difficult to generate within five years, 10
32:47
years or whatever. It might take 100 years, but if
32:51
you have buy in from the people like Ibrahim Troy is not, he's
32:55
not necessarily expanding the GDP of Burkina Faso today like
33:00
right now, but he has he has, he's actually managed to do it.
33:05
But but people would say, oh, like, you know, you could point
33:09
fingers at like different things that might have been better if
33:12
you'd done different things differently.
33:14
Whatever. My point is that the people have
33:18
bought in, right? So yes, you've got political,
33:22
he's got political opponents that don't like what he's doing
33:24
and don't like the way he came to power and the way he deals
33:27
with political dissent, right. But the people on the whole have
33:31
bought into the project. So even if they are not
33:33
materially better off today or in 3-4 years, five years,
33:37
they're bought in from an emotional and like cultural
33:40
point of view. So it's like everyone's working
33:44
to the same shared goal in the future.
33:46
And if you know your children will be better off, that's a
33:49
good enough excuse for, for, for, for me to work.
33:52
It's a good enough excuse for me to buy in and potentially forego
33:55
benefits like today if I think the country, my people, my
33:59
community, my children will be better off.
34:01
I'm not saying children, though. We're saying like great
34:02
grandchildren, like. Yeah, even great grandchildren
34:04
like. Great, great and.
34:05
It's not, it's not, it's, it's not, it's not a one day thing
34:10
where like, oh, today we just hit the lottery.
34:12
It's obviously gradual. Yeah, of course.
34:13
So. People so there will be better
34:15
for You'll see something. If it's better for your great
34:17
grandchildren, it'd probably be better for your children.
34:19
Because yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get get there.
34:21
We'll get. Something, yeah.
34:22
Exactly. Exactly.
34:24
Yeah, That's fair. Yeah.
34:26
I think both arguments are strong, it just depends on the
34:30
individual really, you know? I agree.
34:32
All right. Thank you for joining us.
34:35
I hope we did IT service and I hope you go and look into Pan
34:40
Africanism a little bit more and find where you sit and find out
34:43
how you want to implement it because 100% people of African
34:47
descent should be Pan Africanist.
34:49
So. Yeah, I think, I think if you
34:51
want to, if you want to look at someone on African continent,
34:54
look at and Kruma. If you want to look at the
34:58
African American context, look at Wev Dubois, look at his beef
35:03
of Garvey. That's tea.
35:05
If you sort of want to look even like historically, you can look
35:07
at like France Fanon A. 100% he wrote and like lived in many
35:12
different countries so he's got context from France, the West
35:15
Indies, America. Thomas Ankara is one of my
35:17
favourite leaders. He was a pan Africanist in
35:22
Burkina Faso. Ibrahim Tora is very much
35:24
following in his path and he was a great feminist like he.
35:29
He made sure that women were employed in his government, in
35:32
the civil service, and he was one of the first African leaders
35:35
to promote women's rights on a national scale.
35:40
But yeah, Kwame Toure, like Ben said, I like.
35:43
Kwame Toure. Yeah, yeah.
35:44
He's really, really well. Yeah, he speaks.
35:46
Well, like he's proper charismatic.
35:47
Yeah. So therefore, if you're
35:49
interested, have a look at some of Kwame Toure's talks that on
35:53
YouTube. Let's hold some views.
35:55
Whether you become Kwame Toure or not, just hold some views.
36:00
I think I. Think 100%.
36:01
I think it's important to have. Anyway, much love, see you soon.
36:06
Take care, see you next week. I don't know if my head's in the
36:19
right sport. No, no, it's fine.
36:23
OK, perfect. To say.
36:27
OK, pause. I have to put these up every
36:30
every time I come back in here. I think we might have an SD card
36:41
problem.