Latest / That's Not Spit, It's Condensation! / #206: Practicing Like This Is Why You Don't Have Confidence At Auditions

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#206: Practicing Like This Is Why You Don't Have Confidence At Auditions · That's Not Spit, It's Condensation!

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome to this minute, it's a station.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a classical musician taking professional auditions, the kind of playing you produce under pressure is a direct result of the preparation that you do in the practice room.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can develop a process that actually results in confidence under pressure, then you'll walk into every audition with a real chance to get the results you want.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: But most players are practicing in a way where every single session becomes about proving to themselves that they're good enough, where you're hoping for good days and a bad session is evidence that maybe you're just not cut out for this.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to That's Not Spit.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's condensation.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ryan Beach.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Kathleen Costello.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And on today's episode, we're going to talk about how curiosity can shift your practice from trying to prove you're good enough to being more analytical and data-driven so you can figure out what actually works for you and give yourself the best chance that you can have to get the results that you're looking for.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, Kathleen, why don't you just take us through today's topic and what we'll be talking about?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I think we can all agree that there's a connection between how we prepare and how I perform, right?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very logical extension, you know, from start to finish.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: And regardless of that, people are often struggling to always get the results they want in their performance.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they've they've tried really hard in their preparation.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're trying, they're doing all the right things.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: They they listened to their teachers, they've thought about all those things.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so one thing we really like to say here is that, you know, if if you're not getting the results that you want, the problem is not you.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's something to do with your system.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what we basically the reason that we are focused on the system is because it's getting away from blaming yourself, right?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's me, I can't do this, I'm not good enough, and more looking at the system that you're using and saying, well, what if my system can improve?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason this matters, especially for auditions, it matters for any high-level performing, but especially for auditions, is because if we're able to develop a process or a system of preparation that results in that kind of confidence or trust when we're talking to our clients, that's often what they say they're looking for.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they obviously want to win, but they're more looking for how can I walk on stage and make sure I'm going to represent myself well.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: If we can get a system of preparation that actually results in that, right?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not just, hey, I feel pretty good, but we'll see what happens.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I know I have this deep knowing, then we're going to make sure that the$500 to$1,000 we spend on every audition or the six to eight weeks of preparation or the amount of ourselves we put into it, you know, we're going to make sure that each one of each element is spent well and that each audition is an actual opportunity that could work out the way we want to in terms of the actual outcome.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really important that we talk about these types of things so that if auditioning is something you're looking to do and being able to get the results you want, that these are things that you're thinking about.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So what's a what's the problem that we're going to be talking about today?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: What are some players experiencing that uh and and so we can kind of dig into it a little bit?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the root of it is that I often, you know, even with all that hard work and great preparation, people are walking out there, you know, for their big performance or their audition and still on some level wondering if what they have to offer is going to be good enough.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Will it be enough?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Will the committee like it?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And like we believe that this is, you know, like we sort of set out in the beginning, a direct route back to the way that people are preparing, the way that people are practicing.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so um most of you will probably be able to relate to this.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly can.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that would be um a type of like emotional practicing or practicing that's driven by emotion.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: And usually for this, us, that's like fear, anxiety is kind of what we would kind of trace that back to at its core.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we're practicing from that place, you know, we're essentially we're working we're working that into our preparation, right?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think uh a way to think about it is we've I I can think about, you know, some people that we've worked with where they're really frustrated by the maybe inconsistent results.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so they play something and then they're saying, that's not what I want.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or they play something and they're like, that is what I want, and then they try it again and they don't get it, or they try it the next day and they don't get it, and they think, well, I could do it before and now I can't do it, right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's just this emotional component to practicing that's driven by judgment and like you're saying, fear and anxiety, I would say maybe insecurity too, about and so these are sort of the underlying reasons for what's happening.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: But why do you think, like, what do you think one of the reasons why somebody, somebody would sort of like, I don't think anybody would say, I want this, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: But why do people kind of fall into this a little bit?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that need to like jump forward to the performance and seeing like, okay, I I need this to, I want this excerpt to be really polished, this completed form.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So thinking forward to that stirs up this anxiety, and then we feel this need to like prove ourselves, prove to ourselves like right now that we can do it.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, in the case of like a very technical, you know, fast-paced excerpt, that could mean trying to play it at tempo, like before that you're ready.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: So then all you're really proving to yourself in that moment is that I can't do this right now.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: You might you may very well may be able to do it, you know, in several weeks or whenever the performance date is, but you've just basically proven to yourself in that moment, well, I I can't do this right now.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can imagine what the associations that you would have at the actual audition, what they would be with any given excerpt, where maybe you find yourself in that position where you're hoping a certain excerpt isn't called, you know, I don't feel quite ready to do this because of the way that I was preparing and because of my need throughout the entire process to show myself I can do it, kind of impeded my ability to maybe engage in the right way of doing things.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the another thing we we see is that people, especially people who are maybe further along in their career, people who are further along in the audition process, just feeling like I should be able to do something, right?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've done this long enough.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm enough of a professional.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any experiences with anything like that that you can think of?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Personally, definitely.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can even think of a story even just a couple of days ago, and you know, I picked up a folder um for work for a concert that, you know, on the surface looked like it would be pretty straight ahead.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I wouldn't need to spend a ton, ton of time, like, you know, woodshedding or practicing, you know, for hours for this.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there was something in there that I realized was quite fast, and we'll take some, you know, we'll take a little bit of time.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I still have time.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: I have a few days.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I felt that urge right away to be like, I wonder if I can do this at tempo.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I I resisted trying to play it as fast as it would go, but it was there, that pull, and I could feel it.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was definitely driven by, you know, I jumped to the performance and and even then I was having maybe not the best visions of of how it would go based on my anxiety.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see how this, you know, this thought process starts before we even realize potentially that it's it's happening.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's already, it's already beginning in our minds.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I think there's an element of this that we just take as like, well, this is just normal.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's just part of the process.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: But where I actually think it stems from, there's a couple of things.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it stems from a need of security, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: We want to walk on stage and or into a concert or an audition, whatever, in a moment where we feel some pressure and we want to feel secure.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is where I feel like people will start thinking about, oh, I got to get better, I got to build my fundamentals, you know, I got to get tons of repetitions, I gotta practice more and more and more and more and more so that I can get more of this security.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: But if that was going to be the thing that fixed it, anybody who practiced a ton and you know built their fundamentals, right, the security would go higher.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: But what you see is for a lot of people, the insecurity feels like it stays the same even if there's evidence of growth.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And where I think it stems from, in ways that we've really worked with clients to challenge some of these beliefs, is that the purpose of some people believe that the purpose of practicing is to fix problems.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that sounds kind of crazy, but it's this idea that what I do in the practice room is I I play through something, I wait until something goes wrong, I I see that, I say, I don't like that, I don't want that, so I need to spend time fixing it, and I need to make it good now.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I can basically know that my practice was good.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I can't do it today, or maybe I can do it today, that shows me I can do it, right?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's this idea of like I need this to be right now, I need this to be secure right now, and I need to fix all these problems.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if you have any sort of continuing thoughts on this.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, yeah.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and for a lot of people, that just looks like hammering out repetition after repetition after repetition.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: And we would, of course, argue like repetition is incredibly important in learning.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: We know that the neuromuscular system learns that way, you know, the more consistent repetitions, whether good or bad, that's what kind of gets, for lack of a better word, embedded into, you know, what we call muscle memory.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're able to execute those skills in at its best in what appears to be effortlessly.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like if we would think about, you know, ballet dancers who are very, you know, professionals or gymnasts or divers or anybody who admire, like, you know, athletically, they make these incredibly difficult things look easy, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we aspire to do also when we're playing as well.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: So repetition, of course, is part of how we get there.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: The downside to repetition is that when we're if when we're completing those wraps, if we are caught in a negative thought loop or whatever we're thinking about, like if we're thinking if we're getting frustrated or we're thinking like, why can't I do this yet?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, any of those emotions or thoughts that could be negative that are going along with that, those are also getting baked into our quote unquote memory of how we're doing it.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see this logically follows to negative thoughts on stage.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Those could very well be a product of those negative thoughts and negative emotions that we've had all along the way when we've been preparing.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to try to think about it this way.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: If you go, like you're going into the practice room, you're looking for weaknesses.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have been like this is a good thing, right?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're all told, hey, let's find the thing, let's work on our weaknesses, let's fix our weaknesses.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go with that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: You go into the practice room and you find a weakness, something that's not going the way you want it to.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a technical thing isn't as clean as you want, or maybe intonation is not dialed in, or something like that.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So you say in your head, all right, I found something I don't like.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's not good.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let me hammer this out, let me fix it, let me make sure that this isn't something that I'm gonna deal with moving forward.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's like all your practice.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's all of it, right?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: What you're doing is you are training yourself to look for things you don't like and to judge them and to then tell yourself a story.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the more time, like Kathleen is saying, the more time you go along doing that, the more time you begin to have these associations that's like, I can't do it, I can't do it, I'm no good, I'm no good.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if this is your practice, just think about from a logical perspective, what would, what, what do you think you should expect on stage?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do we think that practicing, noticing all the things that we don't do well, and then judging them and then telling us a story, ourselves a story about what we're capable of is somehow going to lead us to confidence on stage?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't seem logical, but there's often the problem is there's not maybe another way.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like I said, we just accept certain parts of this as a normal part of the process, and maybe at some point people just figure it out.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what what I want to do is I want to say if you're in this loop, if you're stuck in this kind of this struggle, so to speak, it's because no one has ever showed you that there's a different way.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we we're excited actually to share with you a different way to think about this.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you understand what we're about to talk about, it really does have the potential to completely change the your relationship with practice and everything downstream from that, which we're gonna get into, but but I don't want to skip over it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Kathleen, tell us about what is the shift that people could be thinking about that would provide a different way forward for them.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the shift is surprisingly simple on the surface, it's just a move to a state of curiosity.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: So away from fear and anxiety, insecurity, and towards curiosity.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: So at its core, that means question-led practicing.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: And when you practice from a standpoint of not needing to prove something, when you can't, or when you do that, okay, let me rephrase.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So when you are practicing from a standpoint of you need to prove something to yourself, you're going to when you can't do it, you will judge that as bad, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is the emotion that follows, is like, ugh, I feel bad about myself.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: I can't do this, right?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: But when you're leading from curiosity, when you run into an obstacle or you can't do something, it's actually much more, it's much easier to perceive that as an opportunity.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, those are the things like the obstacle is the thing that will then point you to the way forward that will help you see where you can improve, where you can grow.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of it being something bad, it's actually something to be embraced because that is how you will eventually then get past that thing.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a perspective shift, right?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, think of like just really try to think about it.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: The perspective shift is when you're trying to, like what Kathleen said, you're trying to prove it, obstacles happen, this is bad.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: If it's curiosity based, right?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Curiosity is, oh, why am I experiencing this obstacle?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: What's something that could help me overcome that obstacle?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when you overcome it or you get through that obstacle, all of a sudden, the hard thing that you experienced was the catalyst for you actually growing and reaching the next level.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: So our desire to get to get away from, to shy away from, to minimize obstacles in our way could be seen, and I do see as actually hindering our ability to reach that next level.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of embracing it, if we're trying to power through them or blast through them with just hours and effort, we're actually removing the ability to use them for what they are, which is an opportunity for growth.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I'd like to do really quickly, or maybe you want to start, just like kind of share a picture of what maybe a typical practice session might look like.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: One that's uh kind of looks like I'm proving, you know, I'm trying to prove something.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just kind of take us through what that could look like.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, it could look like starting from a place of feeling behind.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: We hear this a lot from our clients too.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, I just feel behind.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that could be very vague.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: It could be, you know, as large as I see my peers per surpassing me, or I'm perceiving that my peers are surpassing me, or you know, other people have opportunities I don't.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: I feel behind.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: I should be able to do whatever, you know, already.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or it could be like how I was feeling a couple days ago, like oh, maybe I feel a little behind on looking at this music, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so starting from a position of feeling behind.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then what happens next?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I immediately my brain starts looking for like, is there a shortcut?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is there like a fastest way that I can kind of get this done?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then already I'm set up for like, you know, I play it, you know, play it through the first time.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: No, that that's not it doesn't sound good.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, do it again, try to fix these things.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, a little better, maybe these things are still wrong, you know, but it uh I still have so much music to learn.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, that's just kind of giving you like a state of where my head might be at if I'm just kind of letting my thoughts go where they would just normally go.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and you've talked about too, sometimes you get into this emotional state of practicing where I gotta fix this thing, that it actually stands in the way of like maybe you hyperfixate on something to the exclusion of other things.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I could spend, you know, 45 minutes on, you know, half a page of one piece, or you know, maybe it's 45 minutes on one excerpt if I'm preparing for an audition.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and but this audition could have like 40 excerpts on it.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's not a very good use of my time.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And for you, like if we're continuing, some of it, as you can tell, some of this is like a hypothetical situation, and some of this is maybe Kathleen just like saying, Hey, this is what I've experienced before.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if we keep going, how do you know, how do you know you were successful?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know you were done?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you know, hey, I accomplished something that I wanted to accomplish from this place?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's difficult because, and at least in that illustration I gave, because I didn't set out like very clear goals for myself in the first place.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't actually set out to say, okay, what what would feel like an accomplishment for today, considering I need this to be ready for five days from now?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it would be getting a section more or less clean up to, you know, 80% tempo, you know, something like that.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: But is that 100% accurate, right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm sure that you walked into that session with goals, but it's it's that the judgment, the emotion maybe derailed you, right?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because like you know, like you know you should be practicing with goals, right?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's not something that you probably weren't thinking about, but it's like I would say sometimes the emotion can derail us from, hey, I've got this plan, but now I'm like, I gotta fix this because I should be able to do it.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like following that emotional thread as opposed to like being a little bit more removed and like dispassionate about what it is that I've sat down to do in that time.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So almost more analytical.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we're gonna, I'm gonna try to describe a different way of doing it, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just trying to paint a very clear picture.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you see yourself in that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe you see yourself in some of it, but here's a different way of doing it.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the way that we are coaching our clients.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is the way we are actively working in our own practice to move.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you're starting you could still start from a place of I'm a little bit, I feel a little bit behind, but maybe you even are like curious about why you feel that way.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to be?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: What do I mean when I'm behind my peers?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean for me to feel like I'm behind?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't start early enough.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so given how much time I have, what would be the smartest way for me to go about doing things?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: How much should I be practicing?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: How should I lay out my practice for the time that I have?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like already right there, you've tried to think ahead a little bit about what's the best way to use your time.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: But from an actual, like I'm in the practice room perspective, you're practicing the same way and you encounter a problem the same way.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's how you handle the problem, is where it changes.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of saying, that's bad, I don't like that, I need to fix it, you say to yourself, okay, I noticed something that didn't line up with what I wanted.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit more objective, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like cold and detached.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, here's the thing I want and here's what happened.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have anything to do with me.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm bad.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even that my playing is bad, it's just at this stage of my development, these things didn't line up.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: What is different between what I did and what I want to do?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do I understand how I could change what I did to get closer to what I want to do?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: If the answer is no, what kinds of experiments could I run in my practice to see if I could find a better way through?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: If the answer is yes, okay, let me approach the thing again, but I'm going to focus in this different way or I'm going to remember it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thing that maybe I knew to do but didn't think to do.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully you can see already here, you have played far less and asked far more questions about what would success look like.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because what you want is that what we want at the end is for our practice to give us data.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: We want the goal of our practice to teach us something about how to be better, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's I hit the obstacle, I started asking questions.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Seeking the answer to the question is then what gets me to the next through the obstacle and to the next level.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just about powering through, it's about actually asking, if I if I understood what to do, I probably wouldn't have made that mistake.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so we like to think about it as if you're making mistakes, more than likely, it's just because you don't understand how to navigate it yet.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's why curiosity is so important, because you're slowing down and asking important questions that are going to lead you to a better possible solution.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know every time when we practice if the solution we're gonna try is going to work.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the thing about practice is if we can stop trying to prove something to ourselves for a second, we give ourselves space to just try different things and to see what happens.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And through the collection of data, through the experiments that we run and through the collection of data, we actually potentially start to learn.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I notice that when things feel good, here's what I'm thinking about, here's how it feels, here's what I notice about the sound.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when things aren't going as well, here are some other things I notice.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you start to develop knowledge, sort of discernment, wisdom, whatever words you want to say, about how to actually start creating the outcomes you want.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this may not happen overnight, which is again why instead of proving, we want to think about practice as curiosity-based experiments.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I've talked a lot, so I'll kind of throw it back to you to see if you have anything to add, but there's one more thing I want to say afterwards.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I don't I think you should definitely complete your thought.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I would just say, you know, for me, you said some really good words in there, and sometimes for me it's just a question of like changing the way that I think about a concept with a with a word.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: So like instead of judging, you said the word notice, and I think those are two have two very different connotations, but they can, you know, sort of point us in a direction.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of judging, you're noticing.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then another one would be instead of you know trying harder, trying to sort of force an outcome by through like effort or will, that you can shift towards a word like allow, like what happens if I just allow my body or like let my body do it?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something that is available to me instead of trying to sort of over muscle or or try your way towards things?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because as we talked about, if just trying, if more hours, if more effort was going to solve the problem, it probably would have solved the problem.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we recognize and we really need uh through curiosity, one of the so we're gonna give some very tangible things in a second here about what you can do a little bit differently to be able to explore curiosity.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that we we want to like, here's an example of a really good question that that will guide your practice and could change things for you if you really embrace it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: What are people who are getting the outcomes that I want doing on stage under pressure at the actual audition that I'm not doing?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not how can I just keep trying, keep heading my, you know, keep banging my head up against the wall, keep trying to just like make sure I don't miss any notes or I'm perfectly in tune or whatever.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get me wrong, like accuracy and intonation is important.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: But asking, like, what do I think these people are doing differently than me?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you start to develop a possible answer to that question, you can then begin, as we've been talking about in this whole thing, orienting your preparation towards now, I have an answer.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have something clear I'm shooting for.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we're saying if at minimum what you want is confidence on stage, I don't remember what I was gonna say, to be honest.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just gonna move on.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: If we're talking about having confidence on stage, here's how curiosity could get you there.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, it will transform your relationship with practicing.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: First and foremost, through what we taught what Kathleen was saying about the way you perceive obstacles, is that at minimum you'll see them as a friend, helpful, things that will make you better, if not actually potentially even wanting those obstacles, so you have the opportunity to overcome them.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's going to happen there is as you overcome the obstacles, you are going to actually start figuring out what works for you.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to figure out for me, when I do this, or I think this way, or I play this way, or I breathe this way, or I move my arm this way, or I move my finger, whatever, I seem to get better outcomes, more the ones that I think will lead me to success.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: The more you're able to create those outcomes in your practice sessions, the more you're going to start to develop that confidence.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not under pressure yet, but you're going to start seeing, oh, when I think these ways, when I do, when I work these ways, whatever, I'm more often getting what I want.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to start to think, I feel like I understand a little bit more how to create the outcomes I want.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm starting to develop confidence in my abilities, trust in my abilities, and you get enough of that, and then you're going to be able to walk on stage and say, instead of, I hope this is good enough.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: I hope the committee will like it.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: I hope this will be a good day.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I practiced enough.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to say, I know exactly what I'm doing.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: It does not mean that you are guaranteed to win.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: It does not mean you're guaranteed any kind of external outcome.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: It does mean that you have significantly more control over how you feel and the kind of confidence that you can step forward in in that pressure moment over the course of time.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think people could do?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what's uh what's a thing that they could do to try this out?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're feeling like curiosity is something that you want to explore, what do you think?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it is at its simplest, it would just be this question-led practicing.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think too, maybe just even starting by like, what do you notice?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: What are the kinds of thoughts that you notice go through your head when you're practicing?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if it's overwhelmingly negative or if you feel kind of like I was describing in my, you know, example that you're being driven by fear or anxiety, just start to notice those things because that's important data as well.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then just maybe engaging with some of these slight language shifts and just say, okay, well, if I just treated this one obstacle I'm running into like an experiment and tried some different solutions, like that would be a place to start.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, one way you might know if you're starting to move in that direction is if you start to feel more like you're witnessing your practicing than being so deeply emotionally involved.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: So with curiosity, there's a bit of a um kind of a removed quality to it.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit like um, I don't know if dispassionate's the right word.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Whenever I like search for this, I like lose the word that I'm looking for.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: But essentially, the point I'm driving at is that it's not a disinterested removal, it's a very interested position.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like an interested witness.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really important.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like curiosity by its definition is inherently an interested, you know, standpoint or perspective.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that interest can be what we want that to be, this sort of slightly removed interest in the situation to be the thing that drives things forward.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: So if you start to feel like that, if you start to feel a little bit like like, oh, I'm sort of like witnessing what's going on as opposed to being such an emotionally invested participant, maybe you're starting to experience some curiosity in your work.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like even listening to you doing it, it's like it sounds crazy in some ways.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it sounds so foreign, but it is actually what I mean, Kathleen and I've been talking about this kind of ad nauseum for the past month, month and a half, two months, when we've really been incorporating this into our practice and sharing it with our clients.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it really is that feeling where it's like I'm just doing things and seeing what happens and writing it down.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even in one session, that you could, if you really are able to sort of just pull yourself away from having to make something happen, like you could sort of almost get a taste for like, oh, this is what practice could feel like if I just put learning at the forefront and I just allowed myself to be imperfect so I could figure out how to get better rather than trying to force a certain outcome.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it does sound a little bit weird.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that, but it's totally possible and it's exciting.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like I could there's a one client I can think of where it's it's there's a lot of sort of it's you know, many, many, many years of feeling like things aren't operating exactly the way this individual wanted, and we've been able to sort of incorporate more curiosity-based sort of actions and behaviors, and it's just interesting to see the difference.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like everything has just immediately solved itself overnight, but you you start to hear talking about the process of practicing differently.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there's a lot less of like, I can't do this, I just can't make this happen, I've never been able to do this, and more I'm kind of noticing this, or it's weird that like I'm focusing on this because I was told I wasn't supposed to do that.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: But as I think about this, it kind of is interesting.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're allowing yourself to really explore different things and you find out what works and what doesn't work.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a way to explore it for sure.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then one other thing I think could be interesting from a purely audition standpoint is this is how I would apply curiosity to even like the big picture look at an audition is take whatever you think held you back at your previous audition and just like ask yourself what held me back and what's one thing I could do in my prep preparation process that would solve that problem.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you may not know the answer to it, but like approaching it like, what do I think was going on there?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's a way to even look at like refining your process overall to continually improve the way that you show up at auditions.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, any other final words before we hop out here?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, thank you for being here and listening.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you are interested in taking auditions, the professional auditions, what you're doing, you're on the circuit, you're going after it, and you want to know more about how to win an audition.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you get these outcomes?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do you need to know?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was mentioning that earlier.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: What are people doing differently?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have a winning auditions workbook that you can go ahead and download for free in the description.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's gonna walk you through step by step everything you need to know about what it takes to win an audition so you can orient your preparation around that.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think next week we're gonna be talking about how to dial in uh your focus, your mindset, your attention when practicing, how to turn it into something that will um specifically more lead to uh these outcomes that we're looking for, especially in terms of, like I said, dialing in that attention.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of focusing on the negative, we're gonna be talking about what you should be doing instead.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's gonna be next week.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening, and we will see you in the next episode.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: See you next time.