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Transcript

Beauty’s Khia Asylum: Brands that Flopped · Divine Skintervention

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Ramon.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Angelo.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I had a thought, and it was when do you feel that you were in your flop era?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: The reason I think that this is such a deep question for me is that I feel that in my eyes you could never be a flop.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: But um I think we all feel that way sometimes.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I don't know if I've talked about this on the podcast, but my life before beauty was Starbucks.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And there's something, I mean, I don't know how many of you guys have like ever worked in Starbucks.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's something about working for that company.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You drink the Kool-Aid so heavy, and you fall into this world of coffee, specialty coffee.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And especially in that environment, I was in the Seattle, like downtown market.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I worked at their two main concept stores.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I worked at the first Starbucks, the one in Pike Place Market, and I worked at the Starbucks roastery.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, went and opened the Starbucks roastery in Chicago.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're in that world, you're always essentially pining for a promotion.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And especially in Seattle, you were trying to get into the corporate office.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And mind you, I had no degree at the time.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to school, but I hadn't graduated with anything.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I it was just me running off pure Moxie and Drive.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I was really young and had a lot of attitude and a lot of ego.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one time I saw the like lady in charge of it was at the roastery.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're all good now.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time, she basically goes down the entire line of all the breeze that's working and says hi to them and says not literally stands right next to me, says nothing to me, but addresses the guy sitting next to me.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And later on, I literally go up to her and I'm like, Do we got beef?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, she was like, actually, we do.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Because essentially, again, attitude, I was very entitled.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was also at that point very resentful.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was in it for a while, like a handful of years at that point, and just feeling very stagnant in like development.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I would come to work Hella Nasty in her defense, and she was like, I tried being so warm and so like friendly to you, and you never returned that, and I figured there was no point to try anymore.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this was also at a point where that happened.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my ex and I had broken up.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, for time reference, this was like 2016, 17 era.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, I had interviewed for a really big opportunity that um I got denied for.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, it came down to me and one other guy.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had all the technical and operational skills.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: He just cried during his interview, and everyone's like, oh, he's so emotionally invested in this.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give it to him.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up getting the same role like a year later, but I was so for me, that was the rock bottom.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I literally went home that day and cried, sobbed.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that was rock bottom.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next year, I basically like I hit that moment and I was like, okay, clearly I have an attitude problem.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Also, what is my motivation?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because at that point, I'm like, nothing's gonna happen with uh for me at Starbucks in this capacity.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the next avenue?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, over the next year, again, I was already going to school for biochem at that point.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I restructured my professional uh trajectory and ended up getting an internship with the Starbucks food RD team.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and that actually segued my like career into cosmetic product development because food science, cosmetic science, actually very parallel industries.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I had to hit that rock bottom to really flip everything around, and that's to some degree how I got here.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of what I'm hearing there, and I think maybe the positive that can be taken out of it, or for anybody's slot error, really, it's like sometimes you need to really like hit rock bottom to ascend.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta be like that phoenix.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I always think of that story of Lady Gaga when she got dropped from Def Jam.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you're speaking my language.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: As an Italian American in New York.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the story about how she was like sobbing and so upset, and her grandma's like, you can be upset about this right now.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Tomorrow, new day, flip at 180.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't let you can't wallow in that.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean I think about that all the time.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: The days that I'm like really in my head and really upset about something, I'm like, be upset about it today, but tomorrow, like you cannot just like continue with this.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: There is a reason.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's so crazy that you say that.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: So my favorite Lady Gaga song is Mary.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, but never mind.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: What were you gonna say?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Paper gangster.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Paper gangster.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great one.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: But that's that one's a lot of fun.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: But my favorite is Marry the Night.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Gay.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I think the song, and if you watch the video, which is like 12 minutes long, it's it's about her going through that experience and basically being like, okay, I've hit rock bottom, but I still want this thing, and I'm gonna fight for it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that is like one of my uh pump-up songs, and also when I was in my flop era, that song kind of like got me through a little bit.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: What is the Dermiangelo flop era?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Medical school.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think to really understand it, you have to understand the fact that like my entire life, like academically, up to that point, I was untouchable.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was like school was easy for me as a kid.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I never studied, I would get straight A's, like it was.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want this to sound like, oh, I think I'm like one of the smartest people in the world or something, but it's just like I was good at taking tests.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would always like finish tests first before all of my classmates, ace them, do all of that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just like things came to me easily in a way, like I gamified it and I was good at like listening to stuff once and then just getting it, right?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not to say that I didn't have to work hard, because you know, to that point, I was like, I knew how to burn the candle at both ends, and like even in college, it was like I was very extracurricularly engaged.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: I uh worked two or three part-time jobs while taking more than like a full slate of classes.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I used that to my advantage to like be able to work my ass off at other things.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but getting to medical school, I kind of felt like I was like at a crossroads because I had doubts.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: One of the jobs that I had worked was kind of like in the fashion industry in styling.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I love fashion so much, maybe I should pursue this.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And after talking with my parents, I was like, I'm going, I got accepted to medical school.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna try it for a year, and if I hate it, I can just drop out and do whatever.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Which, mind you, almost nobody drops out of medical school.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's very rare for that to happen.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so usually if you leave, it's because you've been asked to.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um so um I go and you know, you're suddenly in this environment.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: The way that I've heard somebody put it before is like this is the top tenth of 1% of academic achievement in the world.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So to go from everything was easy for me, I was at the top of the class, I was the star, to I was suddenly like everybody else was, I think, very difficult for me, especially because like the level that you need to be at academically to really excel is insane.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: People do it, but um, I felt like I was just really average for potentially like the first time academically.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I went to medical school with the intention of becoming a dermatologist, and you're told constantly it's like you need to have the best grades, the best board scores, the best everything.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So going through that, I think was hard for me because I had all this angst because I was like, I'm only here to do this one thing, and all of the signs are telling me it's not gonna happen for me.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so like I felt like a total flop.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I got that to the end of my first year of medical school and I was miserable.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I asked some of my classmates, I was like, How are y'all feeling?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Yeah, I hate this.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, Oh, you know what?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is what it's supposed to feel like, so I guess I'll keep going.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't all bad, obviously.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like there were things that I loved about it, and I loved learning and all of that.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, eventually I did imagine dermatology because it's like I basically said to myself, I'm gonna give it like the best shot that I can.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And even if I'm not, you know, number one in my class, and uh, you know, I got told by uh one of my academic deans, like, you would be a phenomenal applicant for internal medicine, which like for those of y'all who don't know, that's kind of like the one of the default fields that people go into, which there's nothing wrong with it, and a lot of people want to do that, but like to be told, hey, you're not cut out for this prestigious thing, slow your roll, you're like a regular person.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the equivalent of like you could shop at Sears?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about Sears.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if if there are some residencies that are like much easier to get into because people don't want to do it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, internal medicine a lot of the time is earlier easier to get into because like there is a lot of staff needed.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a lot of residency positions because that's like what you need the most of basically in hospital medicine is for people to be internists.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why it becomes a little bit easier.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that everybody ends up exactly where they want to be, but um for the percentage of people that apply to dermatology every year, like people go without residency positions because they just don't match anywhere.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: That the match is a whole separate thing that I can't get into right now because it would like.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, that was definitely my flop era, like realizing that I am not infallible, I am just like everybody else.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that, you know, potentially I was like, what if I'm not good enough?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that started me on a journey that took years, where I'm like, okay, at the end of the day, um, I don't care who I'm compared to, I don't care what other people think.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, as long as I am where I want to be, um, and I'm, you know, happy with myself, uh, that's what's most important.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: In the end, it worked out.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Here we are.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Here we here I am.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I found my way into dermatology, and that got me here in a career that I I never thought would happen, that I never thought was was possible.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really funny when you're put in a position where you really second guess your abilities, your intelligence.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is this am I worthy of this?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember doing my master's thesis for my cosmetic science degree.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Mind you, fifth year of my program, I've done all this work, but it's like in the middle of trying to do this, I'm like, how do I make an emulsion?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: What does this all mean?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you question like your ability to actually use any of the equipment.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I've been doing this for seven years already.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why is this like feeling so different?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And like looking back at the whole Starbucks trajectory of things, I'm like, I realize I just hate working for other people.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, going back to like the whole like ADHD of it all, which I don't know if you guys know that I got diagnosed last year.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I need to have very clear paths, steps, and like end goal.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, the Starbucks development thing was just such an abstract concept.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was no clear thing, and it was because you're essentially playing a very political game.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: It really is a matter of does your manager like you or not?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's what academic medicine is like, too.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like getting getting picked.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you could be the hardest worker, you could be the best operational person if your manager does not like you, does not fuck with you.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Can I say that?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, it's your podcast.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's our podcast.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's our podcast.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're you're just in this like development limbo, and you know, all these years later now, I'm like, I love working for myself.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as like I'm seeing brand projects develop, I'm like, I understand the role of hopefully trying to be a better leader than the leaders that I had.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, in the end, it's like sometimes you have to go through to to get where you're going.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta go, you gotta go through it.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for me, like even in my residency training at times, I was like, I did not feel like that was my flop era, even though my first year of residency at the end of it I did feel like a flop, but everybody feels like a flop at the end of their first year because you're like, hey, I know fucking nothing.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also I was told at the end of my first year that I had a bad attitude basically.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: How old were you?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was 23, 24.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, no, I was older than that.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Shut up.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh 27.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Shut up, shut up.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was like 27, 28, yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I was like, looking back on it, I was just like, okay, maybe I need some humility because my whole thing was like when you're in residency, it's like those are your patients, but you're being precepted by people who are more experienced than you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just very much like, wait, these are my patients, these are the plans that I want to make for them.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't wrong, but sometimes you can learn new things from people who know more than you.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can teach an old dog new tricks.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Bark bark.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Woof woof.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but no, it's like I was much younger.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was like 19, 20, 21.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was very much a demon twink, and I was the nastiest bitch.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was so mean.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Also, because I had seniority in the stores, I and I trained.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Don't know why they gave me that privilege.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was kind of a bully in like a playful way, but I was kind of a bully.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you need like a you need a good attitude check sometimes, especially at that age.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I see like older gays who still have that attitude, and I'm like, you were not bullied enough, unfortunately.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's that's a take.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a whole personality trait, like the mean gay.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so tacky to me.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, you're 47 and balding that you cannot be a bitch.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you shouldn't be a bitch.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh sometimes it's a mistake to put a twink in a position of power.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: But some people do have it like that.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is a difference between just like being mean to be mean.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, you know what?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: I saw a TikTok about this yesterday.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: This uh woman, she said something very interesting, was which was it's like, oh, you want to criticize everybody for being untalented, but all of you made people famous for just being a bitch.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Which there's a point there, but I'm like, some of us are mean in a righteous way.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people say that I'm mean online, especially, or I'm just a hater or whatever.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: But like it's in the spirit of teaching people things and for the greater good.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not just like mean to be mean to people.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't make me happy.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, especially since, like, if you look at what my vocation is, it's like I legitimately take care of people for a living.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, what would make you think that I'm just coming after people for no reason?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: What's funny for me is I'm actually very nice online, which is not true to form in real life.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my presence on social media is very curated if I'm doing a response and it's very PR filtered.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because for me, I'm like, you know what?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna lead with kindness.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: In real life, I'm the biggest hater.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, I'm the biggest hater, but I hate in private.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, I'm trying to keep good PR and I'm trying to build my platform around positivity and lights.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but in real life, I'm a hater.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hater down.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you shouldn't have to be.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't see, you should see, Ramon.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: What when nobody's around, the stuff that comes out of that mouth, that perfectly glossed mouth.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about our personal like flop eras, and I feel like you can't talk about a flop era without talking about the Kia Asylum.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the Kia Asylum is so complicated.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: For those who don't know, uh the Kia Asylum is a metaphorical construct developed by gaze on Twitter.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially, but usually to talk about like flop pop stars, flop stars, if you will.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And BB Rexa is kind of like the dean of the Kia Asylum.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Charlie XEX escaped.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: She's doing great.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's supposed to be like it's it's reserved for pop stars that like they're around, but they can't break through and have major success.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: They have very specific niche fans online and probably in Brazil, but um they're in the Kia Asylum.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, yeah, I think it's a complicated conversation because one, the Kia Asylum is named after the rapper Kaya.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is not Kia.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like my neck, my back, Kaya.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: My neck, my back, which why would you name it after somebody who like created such an iconic piece of culture?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're one of the biggest, baddest names of rap.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like come on.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't equate, but that's the name.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing is that many people have brought up that, you know, there's it's tinged with misogyny because usually, you know, it's gay guys talking about this online, and uh, you know, all the pop stars that they're talking about are women, even though uh I think a lot of these pop girls have like had fun with it and played into it and talked about it.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Bibi Rexa, she plays in on the joke.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I don't have beef for her.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's just I'm just being objective in the explanation.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like she'll talk about it, yeah.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And mind you, she had massive pop success, mainstream pop success as well.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: So thinking about beauty, so like our realm and the flop era and the Kia asylum, how do you think that brands end up there?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think, from what we've said, like being in the asylum does not necessarily mean that you're not successful.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't look at BB Rexa and be like, oh, boo hoo, said her, she's uh done very well, had commercial success, probably is very rich.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Talented, extremely talented, successful, gorgeous.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's very unfair.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to the misogyny point, it's a lot of men passing judgment, and it just doesn't make sense necessarily.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to Just because you're not like AA list, like yeah, so what would put a brand in the Kia asylum for you?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it, I think, is being being very niche in the approach for marketing, the demographic you go for.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I always make this point, I don't know if I've done it on the podcast, but there's a brand called Mixed Chicks.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hair brand, and literally I only know about this brand because if you fly into LAX and drive up to like Beverly Hills, Wii Ho from the airport, I always pass by this billboard for mixed chicks.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea is a hair brand, I think.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the idea behind it, I'm like, so you're just tailoring to like mixed biracial people that have like very defined ringlets or like loose curls.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't understand like the exact point of what this brand is.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you expand beyond just that specific niche that you're showing me on the billboard and that you're kind of naming the brand after?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, sometimes the the messaging could get really muddled, especially when I mean we talk about this a lot, when like a brand founder is like, hey, I have this type of skin, so the entire product line is gonna be for that.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, well, do you want to just sell to people like you?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you want to reach a broader audience?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because if everything's niche, then come on.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could probably make an effective build uh business out of that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe mixed chicks, they're making good money.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're on a billboard in LA.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, maybe it's good ROI, but you're never gonna be that A-list brand necessarily if you're like, hey, I'm only for this extremely niche segment of the market.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And not even being like, oh, for curly hair, to be like a specific kind of curly hair.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one brand that I think it's like I don't it's weird to talk about this because it goes back to like how you understand what the brand and product is, Niod.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and this is a I love Niod, but I will also say like I don't they don't fully explain what the products necessarily are and what they do.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And up until recently, Niaud actually was not market.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't know, NIOD is under the same incubator as the ordinary Decium.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And five, six, seven years ago, Decium had a whole array of brands, got rid of all of them, minus the ordinary and neod.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Neod's been around this entire time.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually launching into four right now, and there's a few products of theirs that have been holy grail.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: For year, the Superoxide Disney Taze Mist, the Survival Zero, then some of the other products, I have no idea what they are, what they do, and I'm just like from what I understand about Neod, it's like they are supposed to be pushing the envelope.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like um uh Decium's founder, uh Brandon Truex, I think he his idea initially with skincare was to make something like Neod, where they were doing extremely creative things.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like they introduced copper peptides into the market.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: They were the first to really do that.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Before this whole peptides talk, this was like over 10 years ago.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the story behind Desium is that they basically, like investors were telling him the product is too niche and it's too expensive.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And his reaction to that was to create the ordinary.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: He basically was like, Oh, you think this is too expensive?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get the last laugh.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let's make something where everything is like dirt cheap.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And to that point, it's the ordinary, it's so to the point.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is a nice end of mine serum.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is a copper peptide serum.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: NEED has different has very interesting names for products, and that's just the one thing.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the purpose and the intent of the products isn't always the clear, the most clearly defined.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so now launching at Sephora, a lot of us are looking at what that could look like for them in that retail space.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think with the launch in mind, they kind of revamped the packaging and some of the actual names as well, I think.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully it'll be clearer.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that's one to Angela's point, those formulas, they're very fun, they're very innovative.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's kind of like Dusty.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling the chemist, you know what, go crazy.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Have fun.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because they are really interesting ingredient stories.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I wonder how that's going to translate in a retail environment.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even the way that they refer to the products, it's like, I don't know, it's like copper amino isolate lipid emulsion, and they call that C-I-I-I-L.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like kale.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just call it kale.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: The superoxide disputes, saccharite mist.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they're like SDSM.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's they try to make things kind of obscure.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even though I feel like it's it's a great brand.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: To me, sometimes I find that brands end up in their flop era when they overextend a little bit.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm thinking about fashion now too, but you bringing up DCM is really a great point.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's like they had the chemistry brand, which went away and now came back with one product.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: What was the other brand with all the color-coded stuff?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hilomide.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hilomide.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just like when you overextend, I think sometimes you're trying to reach different segments of the market, but you're like um in fashion, I'm thinking about licensing deals and diffusion lines, which now are you know what I'm thinking of?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, to that point, when skincare brands do that, and essentially like they're so set in their niche and also their price point that they do like supplementary brands to extend or maybe get a younger audience.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Glow Recipe did that with Sweet Chef, which that was at Target for like five minutes.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the Estee Edit.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I knew you were gonna bring this up, or like the Estee Edit, yeah, to get to a younger audience.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: In fashion, usually, so licensing deals are one thing, and they used to be way more common, but it's basically like you're allowing another company to pay to use your name to sell products, and quite often they end up being cheaper.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the king of this was Pierre Cardan, who was like a very high-end couturier in the 60s, and like basically he diluted his brand into nothing.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: When Carl Lagerfeld took over at Chanel, he had to do this, which was they had a lot of licensing deals and they made a lot of their product very available.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you could get Chanel number five at the pharmacy, um, and it was cheap.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, part of the way that they had to bring their prestige back was to make the brand more exclusive so that not everybody could get it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even if you look at like Marc Jacobs, they had the Mark by Marc Jacobs diffusion line, which is really their cash cow, and then they had what were essentially merch stores, so like Jacobs by Marc Jacobs, where they were selling like five and six dollar merchandise or something that eventually when they restructured, they had to cut that out because you're diluting the brand too much.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: What is that one meme with the one tag where it's like Jacobs by Marc Jacobs under licensing for Marc Jacobs by Marc Jacobs?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: That that was an inside joke that they just like wrote out.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was in college, I remember in the West Village, they had a st they had a one of these stores where it was like you could get the tote bag for 20 bucks.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: That was like Jacobs by Mark Jacobs, an affiliation with Marc Jacobs for Mark, yeah, for Mark by Marc Jacobs, whatever.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, so it's like a lot of brands have gotten away from licensing.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: The diffusion line thing is a little bit different because they were trying to say, hey, we want to reach kind of this premium market that's you know not able to really afford like high, high-end fashion.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of those have like gone by the wayside.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like Versace had several of them, so they had Versus, Versace Jeans Couture, things like uh see by Chloe, Jill Sander Navy, Red Valentina, like all of these that in a way also I think some of them were like licensed to another company.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, like in doing that, it's like if I feel like I could go buy a Valentino suit for half the price, why am I gonna pay full price for the main thing?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that kind of leads to a flop.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the Estate Edit, or I'm thinking when when brands really step outside of what they're trying to do, like Glossier play, when they tried to do color cosmetics, it was just like it was not what people were going to them for.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that flopped.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think also sometimes brands lose identity and or they ride a specific thing too much, and it's like you in a market that's so saturated, sometimes you can't just rely on like your one little shtick.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be really competitive.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: A brand that sticks in my head for that is Topicals.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, they have great products, they have great skincare.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, the first four launches, amazing products, but I feel like they started out very clinically focused, they worked with a lot of professionals, and then they re-pivoted their whole brand image.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: They work with rappers now.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Young Baby Tate was one of their people, Tiana Taylor was one of their people, JT's one of their current people, and it's really the eye patches that have become such a symbol for the brand.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that probably is a really good ROI for them because it probably costs not a lot to make those patches, and they do very well off that, but they're a skincare brand fundamentally.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And their NPD pipeline for skincare is actually a lot slower, so they're not launching product left, right, and center, which is also smart to some degree.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like a what's next for them outside of just being known as the like eyepatch brand?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think sometimes you can pigeonhole yourself a little bit too much.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like if you put all your eggs in that basket, and then that one thing becomes unpopular, like the whole eye patch thing.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even think it's as popular as it used to be.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: At least for them, it's a very like it's a symbol, it's a status, it's also like um I mean they look they look cute.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they do, but you know, can that be everything?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you build a brand on just that to some degree?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Again, as a skincare brand.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think of even brands back when I was working at Sephora that I'm like, where are those brands?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Haracone MD.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're still around, but I mean they've been around for a long, long time.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's been doing that since the 80s.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it was just like it was really hard to speak to that product, and it was so expensive.
• 30:07
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Alginist.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I like their stuff.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: They were really they had this one specific serum, the yellow one with like the dropper situation.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with the the little uh spheres in it.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: My mother loves that.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: That was like their main product, but like also really expensive.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: And granted, I was working in an area where people had money and still could not get them to really grab onto that brand.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: There are some brands too.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm like, I'm thinking big conglomerates and like Revlon, flop era, running out of money.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Estate Lauder as a whole, I think they're going through their flop era right now, and they're like fighting their way back from it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sa Angela's point earlier about the Estate Edit trying to appease or at least appeal to um a younger audience.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Estee Lauder has some like great products, double wear, iconic, advanced repair serum, also iconic, but that's kind of like what the brand's known for, and it's still kind of associated with a more mature crowd.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they're I don't I don't actively see them trying, at least in my like uh sphere of things, to appeal to a younger audience or like trying to do something interesting and innovative and fun.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: At this point, I know Estee Lauder as a conglomerate for the brands they like acquire and then sell.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I also think that sometimes some of these brands and some of the founder, like I'm thinking about Glossier play again.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: That should have been a separate brand.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: It shouldn't have been Glossier anything.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think that sometimes you're like, you need to know what it is that you're doing, and if you want to do something totally freaking different, Emily Weiss, maybe start another brand with like different backing and like the Estee edit, like maybe that should have been a totally separate thing that they were not attaching to the original like Estee Lauder IP and marketing it as its own fundamentally different thing, you know?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know that's hard, but yeah.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can't build a whole brand on like a clean girl aesthetic for a millennial, like simple, I look like I have nothing on, and then drop, hey, here's glitter bold color eyeliners.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Those two continents don't meet.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a mainstream brand currently that you see making its way to enroll into the Kia Asylum?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: I have a few.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Mainstream brand enrolling in the Kia Asylum.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's open enrollment period, by the way.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think anybody jumping on the whole exosome PDRM bandwagon, I'm like, ooh, the the orderlies at the asylum are calling for you.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: We mentioned Medicaid here before doing that.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Noturium just did like an exosome drop that I'm like, girl, what are you doing?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's like it seems like people get acquired and then they start doing the most outrageous shit.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Out-of-pocket things.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's very like white refrigerator activities.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, youth to the people, they're in the asylum now.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're fully there.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: But like maybe this is a this this is a pattern, girl.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: You get acquired, then you find yourself in the asylum.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Dr.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Jart.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, and I loved, I loved Dr.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Jart, but no, that's T.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: But where is she?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, going back to Estee, Estee acquired Dr.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Gart, was about to sell them off and then decided, uh, just kidding.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Screw it.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they were packaged with Urban Decay and No, Too Faced.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Two-Faced and Urban Decay.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Was it Urban Decay?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was like Kate Somerville or something.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Nope.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Kate Somerville, they're trying to sell though, too.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think they're in their flop era necessarily, but Dr.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Gyarat?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, Kate Somerville.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Kate Somerville.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, just uh the products are good.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Products are great.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're expensive.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: But also there's so many sublines within the brand that sometimes things get a little bit like once you start diversifying too much within a brand, like, oh, you have the goat milk line and then the hydro line, and then the this line, and the exfolicate, and it's it's a lot.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: It gets to be a lot.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Great products though.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think unfortunately, this is the issue with brands trading on newness a little bit too much.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like with skincare, people need stuff that they could come back to over and over again.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you're like throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks and then discontinuing things, and then be it's like, are you really making money?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have to remember like the distribution channels for these brands.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: How how wide is that?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: How many retail spaces are you in?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you start having too many lines of too many products and you're trying to get all those into all your stores and all your doorways, the money that goes into that, if you're not again getting a return on that, how does that maintain you as a brand?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's brands that like will just consistently discontinue and relaunch, discontinue and relaunch.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Fenty is a really big offender for this, in my opinion.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're in their flop arrow.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're getting and I'm like Fenty's I was Fenty's biggest fan.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: I hate to say it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: But no, they discontinued a lot of great products, and some of them, it's first of all, Rihanna's priorities right now, not the brand, wholeheartedly.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: What are her priorities?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just her kids?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Good for her.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: She deserves that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like for a brand to maintain longevity and its cult status, it's like now they're essentially a lip gloss brand.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: They're discontinuing the soft matte foundation, which was a holy grail for me.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: But even throughout the years since it launched in 2017, they would pull and relaunch and reformulate different shades within that.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when I first started using it, I was 290, which was advertised as neutral olive, and now it's no longer neutral olive.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they launched a bunch of different olive shades over the years, but they just aren't that great.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's so funny because I really like would always think about them as a complexion brand.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing, is they made their mark as a complexion brand, but actually, if you really look into it, the whole thing was 40 shades, so much diversity.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you ask, like the like Melon Enrich girlies, they're all like the undertones were really bad.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: They were really orange, really red.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: I will never forget the uh trophy wife highlighter.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, loved her.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I bought that shit.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I had no business wearing that.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: I wear it all the time, girl.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: My 2017-28 club era, I was kilowattted down.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and to the point of misdirections, they were again, they put diversity and like shade range on the map, and especially if like the contours going really deep.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then one of their last launches was bronzers, and Gloria had to be like, Fenty, girl, missed the mark entirely.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: The deeper shade of that bronzer barely, it was like a highlighter on her.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: So huge missed up, and against what the brand really built its platform on.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think they're really going to like the also skincare wise.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think they just had the opportunity to do a lot of things, and they would just launch very generic products that every other band in Sephora had a similar concept for.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think also it seems like they have a very specific idea of who the consumer is, especially with the skincare, that it's like I think there should have been more thought.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: There should have been, oh, like I don't know.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Their original sunscreen moisturizer, it was fine.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: They did mineral, I'm like it was not great.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um did mineral too.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody was like, oh, in the beginning with their launch, they were like, Yeah, the selling point is like the fat water or whatever.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love fat water.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I was like, okay.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do love fat water.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, I don't know, even uh cookies and clean scrub.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: My mom loved that mask.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what else?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the thing is like skincare wise, they could have done so much.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: What gets me is I do not love the scent stories for their body care.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm, okay.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: I like their body care.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the body care at Sephora, the body care at Ulta.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, those that that's the other confusing part, is it's a very different vibe and very different feel.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, whatever they send me in PR.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: The original like purple body care stuff, like the butter drop, and that's the Sephora stuff.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's I feel smells good.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think for someone as iconically associated with smelling delicious like Rihanna is, I think there could have been a more elevated approach to the scent stories behind those products.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them do give a little bit of like a Bath and Body Works vibe.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Mmm.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mmm.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is with the association that they are technically an LVMH company, and I know LVMH brands, they tend to think they're very like so just a misalignment there to me.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Which is funny because I mean, I don't know.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's something so I was gonna say low rent about LVMH.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they're very, very successful, but like Bernard Arnault would, I don't know, maybe I don't want to get in trouble.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: But somebody recently said, who who did I hear?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody said, oh wait, no, I was listening to a podcast.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think Eugene Rapkin said this.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: He's a fashion writer, but he was like, Yeah, Bernard Arnault, if he could make more money like selling toilets or something, he would be doing that.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like he legitimately does not care where the money comes from.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: He's not in fashion for the prestige.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: He initially like had a family building company and just ended up where he's at off of his big accomplishment that made him was he bought Dior when it was going into bankruptcy and turned it around and then used essentially that equity and that capital to build an empire.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So he has.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like it's not necessarily that that means that all of these brands have taste.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about making money.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is just solely about making money.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you can kind of see the brands who do really well is there is at least uh intention with the brand to actually do something fun with the product versus launching a brand to have a brand and try to like cash out on that Kardashians.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's not always about founders, but like some of these brands, especially if they're older, if they're uh, you know, heavily invested in, or if they're owned by a conglomerate, it's like there may be no soul there after a while.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, me, you know, with my brand as a founder, it's like I feel like not only do I put all of myself into it, but also it has its own identity too, separate from me.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I think part of the reason that we're able to maintain that is just because at the end of the day, who's making decisions?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's what they're not decisions made by committee, it's just me.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there are other minds in the room talking with me, but at the end of the day, like I am the one executing.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's only so much that I'm going to change my decision making based on like the whims of the market or the consumer.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think about the consumer constantly, but it's not because, well, we don't have many competitors, but it's not because, oh, another brand is doing this thing that I have to jump on the bandwagon.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because to me, if it doesn't make sense for us, fine.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh, if you think about an estate lauder or some of these, but like we're talking about Medicaid, it's like they got acquired and now they're off message because it's like you're you're losing the personality of the brands in a way and it's getting diluted.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, like the big thing right now is you launch a brand with the hope to exit for a lot of brands, and it's the minute it gets under conglomerate, or especially like private equity, and that private equity firm has no business being in beauty, that people who have no interest or no mindset around that product category start giving opinions, and that's when shit goes very right.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or no, very left, very left, very left, very left, very wrong, very left, because it ain't right.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Period.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's a brand you hope to see make it out of the Kia Asylum?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, it's a good question.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: Who's in the asylum that I want to come out?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Makeup forever.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: They're in the asylum?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: In my head, they're one of those brands where I'm like, there's so much history behind them, and actually, it is a very artistry-focused brand, and I feel like because it kind of has that marketing behind it, it doesn't have the like mass appeal that I think it should.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Great complexion, great.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think what keeps them afloat is their lip liners.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, that's their star product.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: People love them.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing is there's so much more to the brand beyond that.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh, I love their complexion.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wearing one of their lip products for super boost.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Who should come out?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, I'm about to say something gaggy.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Selfless by Hyrule.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I liked the products.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: That was a good cleanser.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: I like the retinol serum.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a good mandelic product?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Hiram, bring it back.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I mean they're still in business.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: They still exist.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: I just I think they're being sold in Target, maybe.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just honestly, I remember when I first got started, Hi Hiram was massive.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: And technically, my uh Hiram still has a big presence on social media.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: On YouTube, especially, yeah.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just like it's interesting.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like he's not pushed to me.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see his content as much as I would like to.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, we actually looked recently during one of our tapings, and South Us by Hiram is still sold.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can get it online for sure, potentially also in Target, but There's like no marketing behind the brand.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting strategy.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's like who his audience is is just sustaining them really well.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because I do think that there were, there used to be, certain creators that got such a big following that they ended up outside of the niche.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: So like Hiram's following was not, I think, necessarily the same following as as we have, or like I'm thinking of even Munib Shah, Derm Doctor.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, he has such a huge following that it's not just, oh, the people who are like skincare nerds.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, yeah.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like the same thing, even though they're, I mean, his brand, so remedy science, it's like they're really trying to court experts and those online, and it's like they're very engaged with us.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I feel that once you get to that maybe target, target the retailer audience, um, that yeah, it's like a totally different crowd than who we're around, who we engage with, and who engages with us.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was a really good one.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Self is by Hyrum.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was gaggy, right?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't know.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I need to go to Target and pick up that cleanser and that retinol serum just to enjoy it for myself.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: But who else?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Who else?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking at my skincare shelf back there.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's looking kind of sparse because I need to refill it, but um I just think of like the brands who I mean in Sephora, there's a lot of skincare brands, and there's a lot of brands that have been there for a very long time.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they have certain things that really sustain them.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, and through that, the brands have kind of like rebranded, re-jugged up the packaging and all that, but like they still exist, and those holy grow products sustain the brands.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think First Aid Beauty is an example.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's the pads and their KP Scrum.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then who else?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: I see a brand back there that I don't think they're in the asylum because they've flopped.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: They've just never broken through.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Evy.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Technology.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Evy Technology.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it is it's really hard to get in the US.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: And because of so basically Evy Technology, the founder Joan is really, really smart, really, really sweet.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: They um have the moose sunscreens, and the specific formulation around them allows really potent long wear where like he's he you can ask and he'll be like, here's a test results.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: After eight plus hours of water exposure, you are still getting SPF 50 plus.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's they start at 50 plus, and after eight hours, it's like 35 or something.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like it's not that it's like the full thing, but it's like they're showing you it's like it's pretty sustained, adequate UV protection after like eight hours of like being on a beach, going in the water, doing whatever.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's something that's sorely needed, even though it's not included in like the current testing that's mandated for water-resistant claims across the world, I think it is something that should be investigated a little bit more.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because reapplication is kicking a lot of people's asses.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I hear about it all the time in my practice.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: So to have an option where you could definitively say that, you know, if you apply enough incorrectly that it's gonna last a long time.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I would love to see them break through.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is a separate thing.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who who should break through?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're not people who are like big and um which of the girls should break through, you think?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Educated mess.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sole.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um sole A, yes.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing, is like educated mess is interesting because Alex Paget is the founder, and I think Alex has a big social media presence within the skincare community, so that helps with brand exposure.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: And all the chemists really like it because they're fun formulations.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think there's a point of view there that you get from an independent brand.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like they know who they are.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: And like whenever Alex is developing a product, I always get the I I'm there getting the behind-the-scenes scoop.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sometimes in the lab, she's sending me samples, and they're really fun stories.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a lot of intentionality, and there's a lot of really trying to see what I can put in this to really enhance the benefits across the board.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm they're on an upwards trajectory.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: I see nothing but success for them, and big things are happening for them.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: One brand back there that I think is in their flop era that I just got PR from, from for the first time, Morphe.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: They closed like all their stores.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then Forma, the the what's it, the incubator behind them, also went bankrupt.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that mean Morphe was like the brand like 10 years ago.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: And back in the the YouTube beauty influencer days.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where did they go wrong?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because it was also really cheap product.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was really decent quality for how much it cost, but like, where did they like go left?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: James Charles.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sisters sisters.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: Call your lawyer, you're about to file for bankruptcy.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Was it that they were associated with him or that he was their like main income stream, so that when he got canceled, they lost a lot of money.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think they made a lot of money off of those palettes.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I hear.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure, but I think there were other issues too.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of the time when you're working on a razor thin margin, if you overextend yourself, like think about all the overhead you need to do physical stores like that.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if y'all know, like the reason, part of the reason so many brands are just D2C or going back towards working with retailers in beauty rather than having standalone stores is like it's more of a marketing exercise to have a physical store at this point, especially if you're putting it in a major city like New York.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what commercial rents are here?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Egregious.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's ridiculous.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way that you're yeah, easily making that much money selling a cheap product.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, to your point, I think of Glossier and how Glossier invested a lot of money.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, they tried it with little pop-ups, and those did really well.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then they opened brick and mortar stores in like all the major cities, and they're very beautifully done concept stores, but it's like, how do you sustain that?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember going to the one in London, massive, gorgeous.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: They have one in Seattle, really cute space.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is there one here in New York?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Their original one here in New York was crazy.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was the first one that they did, and I had been to it, but again, a marketing exercise because everybody was in there with their phone out.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was the idea.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was basically a content farm.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was like, yeah, you could try everything out.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: I remember specifically that like you would work with somebody on an iPad who would like put in your order, and there was almost like this conveyor belt that was going to the floor above, and your bag would come down.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like they, in their current uh restructuring and everything, have closed most of their retail locations.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Another example I'm seeing, and I really to that point, like how is it sustaining them?
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Jones Road.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, don't let me frickin' Bobby Brown.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: Recently she was on uh Phoebe Gates' podcast.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: So Bill Gates' daughter, who's currently in hot water because her startup was stealing affiliate commission from other online companies.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she has a podcast with also her co-founder, and they had Bobby Brown on, and she said something ridiculous about Botox.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, I tried it once, never do it.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like poison or something like that.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh god, girl, you don't know what you're talking about.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, those Jones Road products, can I just say?
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: I reviewed some of them because they sent me a uh PR a few years ago, and I like they never sent me anything again because their star product, the balm.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I fucking hate this.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it just kind of like glorified Vaseline to some degree?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just like they're like, oh, people were in the comments evangelizing about this stuff, being like, well, you have to put your thumb in it first and break it.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I I know what a balm is, I know what an ointment is, and I just don't like it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to put my fingers in everything.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't like that texture.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I don't want to yuck your yums.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you like it, great, but it was just not good.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting product, an interesting product angle.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, it's the you have brick and mortar stores in like almost all the majorities, well not all the major cities, but they're quickly expanding.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: I went to the one in Dallas.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know they have random ones like on the East Coast and they're expanding further west.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: They have one in at least one in Brooklyn.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just it's a really interesting concept, but like no one is in them.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm just like, how are you financially sustaining they're acting they're still opening these stores?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like Jones Wells is like not a hot brand, no offense to her, but it's not like a who's a hot right now.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not Denessa Myrix.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, very opposite brands.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Very different, yes.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean, but it also goes to show you that just because a brand is financially performing well, or maybe they're not, that's the other thing.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they got outside investment, and this is the idea of just scaling, because a lot of the time there is hardcore investment and having a big footprint before you're actually making money.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: And for a lot of brands, that's not sustainable.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder how much of that's like a generational thing.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, like they need to have brick and mortar.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who's behind yeah, like who's behind the brand?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, obviously, Bobby Brown's been doing this for a minute, and Bobby Brown was a legacy name in itself, but it's like of a certain generation, um, like is your perspective of success in having like a big brand just like being very physically present?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's investment behind it, it are they of that same age range and they're supporting that?
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like especially younger people, we're shopping online.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, for some for a lot of brands, oh, there's a fly here.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think, yeah, you have to think about it as far as what why I say it's a marketing exercise.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, how do you reach new audiences?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for a lot of the newer beauty brands, it's like getting into a big retailer.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like getting into the Ulta, the Sephora, getting yourself in front of new eyes, which is why we've talked about this here before.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually a big investment for these brands to go into the big retailers, and it they need to spend a lot of money up front, but that's on the promise of reaching this whole new customer base and making money that way.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of the newer brands are trying to go about it that way rather than just like opening shops.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because honestly, it's like how much balm are you gonna sell out of like one store?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing is, and that's still a very unique concept and a very unique product category.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: They could have well could have done well in a Sephora ult at the moment.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some competition in those spaces, but like again, if you're more unique, you're gonna stand out more.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you have your own brick and mortar, you're investing, you're hemorrhaging money basically to sustain that, keep it open.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, even bringing it back to Glossier, they're now in Sephora.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: So think about, yeah, the investment that you're making there, even if it's like you're paying for the fixtures, you're paying to educate the staff, whatever, like for the amount of stores that you are in, that investment is very small because if you think about it, it's spread between all these brands, essentially.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, I remember working at Sephora, Glossier wasn't in store at that time.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so dozens upon dozens of people every day would come and being like, Do you have Glossier here?
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sell Glossier?
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd be like, No, we have milk makeup.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like basically money that Glossier was essentially losing out on.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember talking to a brand who um nowadays Amazon is a huge distribution channel for like indie brands, and this brand owner was telling me that Mikaela Nogueira mentioned one of their products, and there was a way to look and see.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: Granted, the brand was not on Amazon at the moment, they were able to see the level of traffic that uh Amazon saw in terms of uh searches for their products, and she was like, the amount of money we missed out on by not being on Amazon was obscene.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like the ease of access to your products is vital to make money.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: Last question wrap up the episode.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: A legacy brand that was the brand in this category, and I feel like it somehow sustained itself, just I don't even know how.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like they try to reinvent themselves and it's not always hitting to the same level.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Kia Asylum or not, Mac.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: Mac?
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Mac was the makeup brand.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: And to talk about brick and mortar, they Mac is standalone.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're at Sephora to some degree now.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're at Sephora.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a recent switch.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they still do very heavy celebrity campaigns every year, but it just has never lived up to the same legacy that it once was.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to hear something that is gonna turn me on?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Turn you on, uh, that's gonna rip off your wig, that's gonna send it into space.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have never tried a Mac product.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: You haven't worn NC40?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: What is it about NC40?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, girl.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: I do not know.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like NC4 uh when I first started trying Mac, the powder foundation that everyone used, I was NC42.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: 42.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so I would be like two shades down.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I I don't think anybody was actually NC40.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was just like the default.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Here, try this.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh, you're looking a little toasty.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: But no, like Ruby Woo, the red lipstick, yeah, the lip gloss, horrible texture.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: That powder foundation reformulated recently, I think to be talk-free, everyone hates it.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um the fucking Mac Fix Plus, that was everyone's like, that's the best setting spray.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it's not really a setting spray, it's a hydrating mist at best.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: But no, Mac was the legacy makeup brand.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was the hot like makeup of all makeup brands, and it's just not.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like, yeah, in like the early 2000s, 2010s, 2010s, Mac was like people were talking about it constantly.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: Prolonged wear.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe NARS is kind of there too, with like they kind of fell off a little bit, I think.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: Which is, I mean, interesting because they were just so notorious for like the product names.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, how many pro how many products can you name like Consplosion?
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: How many iterations of orgasm can you launch?
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: But they were, I mean, you say that, and this is the perspective of a different demographic.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think for a lot of the black girls, complexion-wise, uh, NARS still hold it down.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm you know what?
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have not used any of their complexion.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've used some of the blushes.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: The blushes eat.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're good.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I want to disagree with you on that one because they're concealers, especially the pot concealer.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wait, sorry.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're concealers.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: I wait, sorry, Radiant Creamy and the pot concealer.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Those are okay.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: What the fuck am I saying?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: I use I use their stuff like every day.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: But um So NARS is not in the key asylum.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I forget just because the name rubs off of the packaging because I use it so much.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that is a fixture.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: I saw Laguna bronzer, very cute.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: So NARS is not in the key asylum.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: I do understand what you're saying though.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like they were a big, big, big brand, and now they're not as much anymore.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think Mac is a more extreme degree.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: Also, NARS was acquired, no?
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're owned by Shiseito?
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: So.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: With that being said, thank you guys so much for listening.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let us know in the comment section who do you think is in the asylum?
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: Who's in their flap era?
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are you in your flap era?
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you're not.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you're not, but let us know.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: Are you trying to escape from the asylum?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: Are you in your flap era or your top era?
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let us know in the comments.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let us know.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh please give us a five-star rating or a thumbs up, or I just learned on YouTube you could hype this video.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: What the fuck is that?
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've been hyping our own.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I've been hyping myself.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: But hype us.