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Pin (1988) · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Happy birthday, Jamie.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: It's me pin my lips flapping, my lips flapping, my
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: teeth showing. Don't say anything. Oh oh oh, listeners, you're
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: in for it today. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: name is Jamie Loft. My name's Jamie loved this.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: My name's Gaitland Durande and.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: This sorry you should you should know. Actually behind me,
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: I kind of have my pin my Barbie. I have
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: a my size Barbie that I've used on stage many times. Yeah,
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: she's kind of my pin in that she's real and
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: she killed my parents and it was her. Had nothing
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: to do with me. It was her. Yeah, I would
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: have grocery shopping. That's one of the There are so.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Many things with Leon in this movie.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Room. Like Leon, we got to be a better liar.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: If we're going to be committing so many murders.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: He's gonna be a better liar. His sister needs to
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: be more discerning. I would say it's really important not
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: to start blame her.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: I was like, let's start by blaming the victim, and uh,
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: leave my friend Ursula alone. She's doing her best well.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Coach to defessional casts. My name is Jamie pinn Loftus.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Wow. My name's Kate pinn Durante.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah Wow.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: What a way to start a Monday. And this is
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: our podcast where we take a look at your favorite
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: or in this case, I think just my favorite movies
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: using an intersectional feminist lens.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure most people know about pin nineteen eighty eight.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's kind of why we're doing this, to
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: spread the good word. The pin pin exists. Imagine clapping
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: emojis between those words.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Are there any pin Heads in the in the crowd?
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Not that kind of pinhead. I don't like those ones.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: I like psychological horror pin Wait.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what pinhead refers to. I'm I
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: just know that there was a fake band in Back
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: to the Future called the Pinheads.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: But Pinhead, well, it's the main character in hell Raiser.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: The hell Raiser Ah that franchise, right, And you'll never believe.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Why he's called that because he has pins in his
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: head because.
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: He has pins in his head? Caitlin, what's the Bechtel test?
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: It is a media metric created by our good friend
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Alison Bechdel. There's there's a lot of backstory behind it,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: but we've we've just got to get into Pin today,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: so I'll do the abridged version. Sure, there are many
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: versions of the Bechtel test, but the one that we
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: use is, do two characters of a marginal gender have names?
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: about something other than a man or a male? Coded?
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would all Pin he him? Pin?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Is he him all the way down? Hear him?
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah? If you've seen I don't really think there's other
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: no other interpretations. Let's just leave it at that.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Let's leave it at that.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Some real heat him behavior coming from from Pin and
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: for sure, and also his various you know, if you
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: subscribe to the Pin Isn't real theory, all of his
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: ventriloquists are also men, toxic men, toxic toxic men. Absolutely,
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: so Pin is an agent. He's a puppet of the patriarchy. Wow, yeah, yeah,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: So we are here to talk about the feminist implications
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: of the movie. Pin nineteen eighty eight. I think that
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: we both saw this movie under the while we were
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: not physically together, we were in community when we first
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: saw this. Yeah, what's your history with Pin?
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: You're referring to the annual twenty four hour horror movie
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: marathon aka Horror Thon that our friend Alex does every year.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I think we saw this during the Horrorthon that was
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: like four or five years ago. Okay, So for me,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: I was only loosely paying attention as Pin was being
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: streamed before my very eyes, and so I had different
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I had a different impression of it than is actually
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: the case. So when I rewatched it to prefer this episode,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, it's like it's like kind of
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: higher budget than I thought. I was remembering like student
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: film vibes, Like.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: No, I mean this was supposed to be a theatrical release,
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: as it got kind of got the shaft. I mean
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: it definitely as TV movie and energy. Yeah, which makes
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: sense when you like, that's a lot of what this
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: director did. It's like Canadian like many, you know what
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: I should have done this year creating remlos Aar I
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: like many, Like many of my favorite movies, it is
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: basically a TV movie in vibes in I feel like
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: in the way that it's shot, in the way that
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: the music sounds, even the performances, it's like it's very
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: and I say this while feeling the performances in this movie,
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: especially the two center well let's and let's throw a
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: pin in there. The three central performances I think are
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: really good, like kind of better than they have any
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: right to be. I agree, but it is like a
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: mellow drama. Everyone seems to know the movie they're in.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: It is a very intense. But the lead perform like Leon,
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: really he reminds me he's giving like young Robert Pattinson
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: to me.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Sure, especially when he's playing a creep like Edward Cullen.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: A weird well, he's playing like a very stoic weirdo
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: and I just yeah. British Canadian actor David Hewlett, who
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I guess is most famous for being in the Stargate franchise,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: which I have not seen, but he was also in
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: He's one of the villains in the Shape of Water,
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: which is a fave of mine. He's like one of
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: the corporate Cold War guys, so he's like a Del
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: Toro like all of these actors have like pretty pretty
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: cool resumes. I mean not to mention literally literally.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: John Locke of Lost fame.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: John Locke is in this movie, and he's maybe Terry O'Quinn.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: If he's gonna do one thing, it's play the weirdest
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: bitch in the movie, Like he is always the weirdest
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: bitch on screen. He's so good at it. Yes, I
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: just my god, Sorry, I'm already getting distracted by pen
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: so Yes horror thon.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, so we saw that you. I remember you really
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: latching onto this movie. I was not quite so enamored
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: by it.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Me and Bryants were really into it.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, for me, I think I don't remember like where
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: it was in the order of this again twenty four
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: hour marathon, so I might have been tired. I might
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: have just been kind of distracted, but I was sort
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: of checked out during Pin. But I do remember you
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: and our friend Bryant being like locked in, John locked in.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: We were John locked in. And this is before I
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: found Lot, before I watched Lost. So now rewatching Pin
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: and knowing weird bitch John Locke is in it. Everyone.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: Check out my favorite John lock clip, which is him
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: in group therapy, yelling at a woman saying, you want
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: your thirty dollars back. I want my kidney back because
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: his father stole his kidney.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, I forgot about that.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: He's so funny, dude, He's so funny. He's the most
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: put upon character in all of television, and he's got
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: the scars to show for it because he's a weird,
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: weird man.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, So anyway, that's my history with PIN. I had
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: never heard of it before that.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: Neither had I.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I've never seen it referenced since it is sort of
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: it's kind of lost media. It feels like it is
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: for free on YouTube, but otherwise you can't rent it
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: or stream it or anywhere.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: I think it's like sort of one of those those
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: movies that's being like single handedly kept alive by like
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: horror fans, which is cool. Yeah, like Alex right, Alex.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, But yeah, that's that's my relationship to it, Jamie,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: tell us more about yours.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Well, it started at the very same horror thon. I
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: think it also had to do with, first of all,
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: where I was at in my life and like what
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: I was doing and how much I was paying attention
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: because I don't expect you to remember this, because I've
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: never disclosed it, but this was this would have been
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: Horror on twenty twenty one when I was going through
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: a rather gnarly breakup and as I was watching horrorson
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: this year, I was repainting the walls in my old apartment.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: So two critical things, which is leading up to a
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: very embarrassing reveal. Two critical things about me getting really
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: locked in on Pin is Number one, my house was
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: full of paint fumes because I was repainting the house,
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: being like I have to change my life. So first
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: of all, I was maybe a little bit high on
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: paint fumes. Number one. Number two, I was not fully
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: paying attention to some crucial shots in Pin. I missed
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: a few crucial shots in Pin, okay because I was
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: painting my bathroom at the time, which means that I thought,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: on this first viewing that Pin was real, and I didn't.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize Pin wasn't real. And that said, I
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: fully thought, because they don't. I mean again, and this
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: fads to like the netflixification of how we watch movie now,
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: because you are clearly given the information if you're looking
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: at the screen the whole time, like movies are supposed
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: to go, but I was just hearing Pin and I
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: was like, this is so wild. I love this real character.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: There's a sentient medical dummy. Although I think that the
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: movie keeps you guessing about whether or not Pin is
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: real or slash sentient for a little while. It becomes
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: clear the further into the movie you get that Pin
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: is only seems to be talking and moving because of
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: ventriloquism and because of a live human people manipulating him
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: and his movements and things like that. But for a
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: little while, I feel like you're not totally sure one
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: way or the other.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: Well, there's one sequence in particular where I'm like, the
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: car cried the.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Car, yeah exactly.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: Leon is certainly not in there, so I don't under Yeah,
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: there's one scene where and I think I was going
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: with that, but I think for like kind of every
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: other sequence, Leon's always.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: There Leon or the yeah or the dad.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: Something I thought was interesting, and this isn't even a criticism,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: is that the voice doesn't change for Pin, even when
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: the person being Pins ventriloquist changes. I think I like that.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: But anyways, I fully was high on paint fumes. I
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: thought Pin was real on the first viewing, But I'm
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: thrilled to report that I've seen it two or three
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: times since then and it's still so awesome. I mean,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: I think what I missed in. I mean, even if
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: you watch the movie Pin believing Pin is real high
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: on paint fumes, it is still a very intense psychological thriller.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: But once you know that he is being used a
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: ventriloquist dummy, the psychological thriller stuff really amps up. So Yeah,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: and then Alex Jacob's iconic film editor of movies like
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: In a Violent Nature, In a Violent Nature too, Night Nurse,
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: which just came out.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Is there another one? Maybe Jamie my.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: Movie that hasn't come out but hopefully will. But he's
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: I feel like he's because he programs this and is
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: also a horror fan. Who would know about Pin brought
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: Pin to the People in twenty twenty one. Yes, I
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: also own a copy of the book, which I considered
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: reading for this, but then I read that it really
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: leans into the incest subplot and decided I don't need
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: to read it. I don't need to read it. Actually,
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: there's enough of an incest subplot in the movie for me. Yeah,
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: it's it's a psychological thriller. These kids they never stood
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: a chance because their father was John Locke and so,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: but yes, I think I have like such an affection
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: for this movie. I think part of it is connected
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: to like how and I saw it. But I also
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: think it's like again, like you're saying, like better than
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: you would think like because it's basically lost Media. I
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: feel like that means either lost at media, Oh my god,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: sr John Locke, Oh my god. If Lost ever got lost,
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: I'd be pissed. I'm looking at my John Locke doll
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: over there. Wait what you know?
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I see him? Do you have an I know? Okay, well,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I already know how many dolls you have.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of dolls.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: The life size Barbie you have you famously have an
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: American girl doll boy looy.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: And two girls unfortunately and two girls like this is
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: John Locke. It's like a whoa little it's for kids.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: And there's there's Hurley, Jack and Kate. Where's Sayed? You know,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: where's Sun? Where's a lot of good characters missing from that.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: But I but I bought it because John Locke is
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: my number one? Where's Walt? Where's Michael? Come on? Folks,
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: where are the good characters making anyways? John Locke one
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: of our best men being Bitch's canon characters indeed. But anyways, Yeah,
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: like I think, because Pin is so hard to find,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: you're like, either.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: It's a hard pin point, it's I'm.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Really setting myself up with this. You would think that
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: it's like not good, but it is good.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: It is like better than you'd think.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's doing a lot of like
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: horror tropes in ways that I like haven't really seen
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: come together quite in this way.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: So I may say, if.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: You haven't seen Pin, I would recommend watching in a group.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: Don't it's weird. Now we can both attest. It feels
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: weird to watch Pin by yourself.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: It does. And I would recommend before you listen to
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: the rest of this episode and hear the recap if
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: you have not already seen Pin. Oh yeah, don't get
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: it spoiled by the recap and our discussion. Just take
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: just take some time, pause this episode. Watch Pin on YouTube.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: It's an hour and forty three minutes or something like that.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: It's a pretty quick watch, and then come back and
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: listen to the rest of this episode, because like, it
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: gets so nuts so fast that I want people to
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: experience it for themselves.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: I agree, you deserve to have the optimal Pin experience.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: Will leave the YouTube link because like there literally is.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I don't think that you could pay to watch this
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: movie if you wanted to, which feels kind of evil.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: I want I want Pin to get residuals well.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: We want to financially support Pin.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: I want Ursula, Ursula, God and Stan. Ursula and Stan
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: one iconic couple. Top ten most iconic couples in film.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Ursula and Stan, Stan, I think is such an iconic character.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: We'll get to stand.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I'm a stand fan. I'm a stand Stan of Stan.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: I was standing Stan. It's so and it's so hard
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: to get us on board with a boyfriend character, but
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: I'm like, Stan has some great boyfriend qualities, and that
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: every time we cut to him, he's trying to learn
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: how to read.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: He's like, okay, he's trying to learn how to read
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: a language that is not his first line French, right,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I think Italian?
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Italian?
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: But I just was like Stan, He's he's a jock
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: with a dream, and he's so nice to Pin. It's
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: wild out nice.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: At to Pin. People are too nice to Pin in
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: this movie. It's true, it's true, and therein lies the problem.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: But you see, if you see Pin out in the streets,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: do not be nice to him. Kick his ass, dude.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: He's the one, He's he's maybe the one. The one
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: guy that really has it coming is Pin. And then
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: when Pin get oh god, okay, truly stop. If you
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: haven't seen Pin, please stop, please and go watch and
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: watch it, because what I'm about to say is one
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: of the best parts of the movie. When Pin gets skin.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, Oh my god, it's so wild. I
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: remember it, do you remember. I'll never forget where I
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: was the first time I saw Pin with skin. It
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: was in a bathroom.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Pink ingesting paint fumes.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: This is a great breakup. This is a great breakup
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: movie for reasons I can't quite articulate, because that has
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: nothing to.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Do with the movie.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: But you just leave your body watching Pin.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: No, of course, Well, let's take a quick break and
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: give people the opportunity to go and watch Pin, and
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: then we'll come back for the recap. So a content
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: warning before we delve into the recap, for there are
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: mentions of rape and incest, which will also come up
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: in our discussion, so that listeners are aware of that.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Here's the plot of Pin. We open on some kids
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: who are outside of a house looking at something in
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: the second story window.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: This which, mind you of a movie, because another one
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: of my favorite movies starts with this said.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Oh wait, it does seem familiar, but I can't. This
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: just happens. Endpoint it again with that pun.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: This is how Casper begins.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, right, okay, weird. So these kids are looking
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: at something in the window. It might be a man
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: sitting very still, or it might be a dummy. We're
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: not sure. One of the little boys climbs up to
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: get a better look, and it's hard to tell exactly
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: what he's looking at. But then we see a face
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: and eyes that blink, and so we're like ah, and
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the boys are scared off and run away. We cut
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: to fifteen years earlier. We meet the Lyndon family. The
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: father is doctor Lindon played by Terry O'Quinn aka John
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Locke from Lost Ah.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: He's being weird. I will say I think they had
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: for particularly, I think for both of the siblings they
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: found appropriate young like baby Leon and adult Leon. I
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: think are equally creepy, which had to have been difficult
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: because that's a respect. That child is probably like fifty
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: years old. Now that's a very creepy kid.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Also, okay, so I didn't catch this
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: the first time, but we see the kids as two
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: different ages before they become teenagers, or at least Ursula
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: the sister, she's like maybe like a five year old
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: in a couple scenes, and then they age her up
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: and they have another actor who is probably like ten
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: or so.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's some ethical I have some ethical questions about
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: how these kids are directed and what they're talking about and.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: And the need.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Oh god, now's a good time to say that. In
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: the movie Pin nineteen eighty eight, getting horny is called
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: the need. Everyone calls it that. There's no other word
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: for it.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, it reminded me of have you ever read The Giver? Yes,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: when they call like sexual desire stirrings, I think is
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the term they use.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Wow, I haven't thought about The Giver in a very
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: long time. That was one of my favorite books as
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: a kid.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Same, same interesting, but yeah, they're like, oh, tween, kid,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: you're starting to feel sexual feelings. Those are stirrings, And
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: I remember reading that as a kid and being like,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: oh my god, what the hell, what.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: The hell it's it's a little bit nasty to call
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: it that, but if you get the immediately, this family
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: is the kind of family that would call it the
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: need versus yes anything. This family sucks so bad.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: They're all very creepy. So we meet the father, doctor Lindon.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: He is super like uppity, in formal, and creepy. He
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: makes his small children Leon and Ursula do math before
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: they go to bed. Meanwhile, their mother, Missus Lindon, I'm
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: not sure if we ever get a first name for her.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: She's also very like prim and uppity. She's obsessed with cleanliness.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: She's also physically violent.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: She's also physically and verbally abusive. Yeah, so this is
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: not a happy family. No. We cut to doctor Lindon's
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: medical office and while he is treating a child, he's
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: also talking to a life size medical dummy named Pin, who.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: We learn later is anatomically correct. Yes, and in the
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: pediatrician's office. I mean, it makes sense that a medical
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: dummy would be anatomically correct, Yeah, but it doesn't make
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: sense it would be in the pediatrician's office.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I don't know it was the eighties. I know, I
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: can say.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: I was like, it's so yeah, you have to sort
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: of wonder, You're like, I mean, obviously, I don't think
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: it was ever normalized for an anatomically correct medical dummy
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: that speaks via ventral equism to be normalized in you know,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Western society. But I have to imagine that creepy. I mean,
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: I think about like behavior that my pediatrician was doing
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: in the like late nineties, early two thousands, and you're like, hmmmm,
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: I probably would not fly today. I would not let
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: my child. You know, my doctor was weird.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: I feel like my doctor, my pediatrician, was pretty not weird.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: My pediatrician. I've been thinking about it a lot because
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: I just read essay about scoliosis and my pediatrician a
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: totally missed my scoliosis, which was so bad and advanced
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: that it's kind of shocking that he missed it for
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: what would have had to have been years. And then
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: when he when my gym teacher found it instead of him,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: he was so embarrassed that he spent years just like
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: kind of freaking me out into like like telling me
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: I had various illnesses. I didn't have because he was
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: so like, yeah, he told he told me I had
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: he's he thought that I had more fan syndrome like
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: I got. I mean, I'm glad that like if he
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: suspected that, he sent me to get tested and like
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: all this stuff. But it just felt like he was
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: overcompensating for a clear failure and then sent me on
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: all these really scary tests that never ended up being anything.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: But it just like, but he was like our family doctor.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: All my cousins went to him too, and so we're
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: just like he has a Looney Tunes tie. He's probably
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: a good doctor. Anyways, he was.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Not okay, and neither is doctor Lindon.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: Oh I mean, I guess I should be counting my blessings. Pin,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: was it at least? Oh my god?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, be grateful, Jamie. So doctor Lindon is talking
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: to this medical dummy named Pin, and Pin is quote
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: unquote responding because doctor Lindon is throwing his voice and
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: doing ventriloquism to make it seem like Pin is talking
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: back to him. Also, doctor Lindon's children are in the
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: room as he's performing like a medical examination on a child.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: And it doesn't seem like a child they know, not
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: that that would make it appropriate, but I'm like, if
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: it's a cousin, maybe, but like it's just that that's
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: not the situation.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's uncalled for any way you look
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: at it. So all this creepy stuff is happening, including
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: the way Pin looks and sounds, because he looks like
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: something out of a night I don't know if that's
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: just how medical dummies looked at the time.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: But I think they went out of their way to
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: make him scarier because he has these like empty blue eyes, right.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: But otherwise, like other medical dummies, they would basically look
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: the way a human would look if you removed their skin,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: so you see like their muscles and stuff.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: But he's also did you watch Breaking Bad and or
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: better call Saul, because I did not.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I've seen the first season and change of Breaking Bad,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: But like many many TV series, even if they're good
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: and I'm enjoying them, I still fall off pretty quickly.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: I just I just haven't seen it. But yeah, I'm
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: sure many of our listeners have, and so it's worth
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: mentioning that the voice actor for Pin is one Jonathan Banks,
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: who plays a huge character on both Breaking Bad, and
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: better call Saul Hitman and fixer Mike Erman Trout. Okay,
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: so he's been in I think like basically every breaking
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: bad thing you could possibly be in. He was nominated
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: for an Emmy for this role a number of times.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: He was nominated for a SAG Awards Saturday Awards. So anyways,
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: if you saw any breaking bad media, I'm assuming that
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: you would recognize this actor and you would be shocked
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: to find that he also played Pin. I was able
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: to find an interview, but like, there's so little meat.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: So a few people have acknowledged they're in Pin. David Hewlett,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: you cannot find a single acknowledgment, and he does a
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: lot of interviews. He pretends he doesn't see Pin, even
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: though he's giving the performance of a lifetime whatever whatever.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: But Jonathan Banks did give one errant interview about Pin,
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: and he was like, I don't remember really doing that,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: but I never got any residuals were in my residuals
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: And it's like bad bad news, Pal Pin didn't really
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: come out. Oh, I think residuals are on the way. No,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: they should give him YouTube ad rup. How can we
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: get Mike? How can we get breaking bads? Mike erman
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Trout paid for Pin. I think The Pin Boys is
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: so effective and.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: So very creepy. Yes, yeah, And despite Pin sounding and
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: looking extremely creepy, the children think that Pin is cool.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Especially Leon is really into Pin.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the children, I mean Leon, I feel like
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Pin is the only quote unquote adult sized creature that
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: seems to show Leon any patience, even though I wouldn't
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: say kindness.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Feels like a stretch, right because Pin isn't like warm. No,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: He's very clinical and again creepy.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but he isn't like cruel, which is how Leon's
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: parents are. So I think that he gets attached for
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: that another reason.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Right, So Leon is obsessed with Pin, and the kids
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: have a quick conversation with Pin, and once again it's
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: pretty clear that doctor Lyndon has Pin quote unquote respond
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: via ventriloquism, and Penn tells the children that they shouldn't
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: be talking to him when their father isn't around, and
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: this is something that Leon really like takes to heart.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: One day, Leon goes into his dad's office to talk
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: to Pin, partly because Pin seems to be Leon's only friend.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: The kids at school don't like Leon, and they bully him,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: So Leon goes to confide in Pin, but then a
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: nurse is about to come into the room, so Leon
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: hies and then watches as the nurse has sex with Pin.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: This scene is so it's wild weird. It's one of
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: It's not the first thing that happens in Pin that
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: makes you go yuck, what, but it is the first
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: thing where you're just like wow, truly, anything could happen
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: in the movie Pin, because this nurse spoiler alert, we
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: never see her again. The fact that she fox Pin
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: is not relevant to the plot at all. It's just
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: something that, like, I mean, I guess the way that
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: it I wouldn't say it moves the plot forward, except
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: that like it does, I guess further complicate Leon's relationship
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: to sexualourages, how he conflights various things because he doesn't
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: have an adult in his life to have an honest
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: conversation with him about this. But the way they choose
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: to get that information Cross is just by saying, so
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: this nurse we met at the beginning of the movie,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: who don't get comfortable, she will not be coming back.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: She fox Pin on her break, She fox Pin at
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: work at work on her break, and that's why it's
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: important that Pin is anatomically correct, because he is this
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: nurse's sex doll.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Apparently Pin has a constant erect penis. Otherwise I'm not sure.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: I guess I don't know enough about medical dolls to
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: be like, I miss Yeah, I guess you don't get
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: them aroused. Wow, I didn't think about that. That's another
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: argument for Pin real? Right if Pin has a boner
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: unless but then it's like, if Pin is real, he's
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: also getting assaulted.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Right is Pin consenting to this? Can?
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Pin? Can?
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Can? Alternatively, if we go with the read that Pin
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: is not alive, which is okay, some dissenters may make
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: this claim. Perhaps the sex that the nurses having with
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Pin is not penetrative. Maybe he's just sort of rubbing,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: rubbing up on Pin, rubbing up on Pin, rubbing pins
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: flaccid anatomically correct penis, that's against her.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: We don't know, and it's we don't know. I I
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: think you know the nurse. I can't say nurse innocent
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: necessarily because you shouldn't be having sex with Pin at
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: a pediatrician's office with the door ajar. I might add, also,
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: she does not close the door, so I would say
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: that is a bit diabolical. I cannot stand that this
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: is a woman's wrong.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: I think this is a woman's wrong.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Having sex with Pin not my business. Having sex with
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Pin at work and you worked at a pediatricians office
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: and the door's open, Well that's good, that's a red flag.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, seek treatment, yes, And Leon is witnessing this all happen,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: and he seems quite horrified, understandably, so then we cut
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: to Ursula's birthday. Pin has gone her a present as
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: if he is one of the family. Oh my god, and.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: It's so thoughtful. I love I don't know why this
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: line stuck with me. But when Leon goes, oh, he's like,
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: this is the exact kind of present Pin would get
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: because he's just like Pin is such a classy, a
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: classy guy.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Oh he is Pin's number one fan.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Penn has taste.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: And then that night Leon and Ursula are talking. She
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: insults Pin, so Leon strikes her, and then their mother
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: catches them with a magazine that contains nudity and she's appalled.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: The next day the kids get the sex talk, but
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: guess who it's from. It's from Pin.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately from Pin. Why did they get the talk from
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Pin and why well, I think this is this brings
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: up a lot of questions about the doctor character. I
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: think that the doctor character it's interesting and I'm using
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: the word interesting liberally here, and I don't it's tricky
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: because it's like this movie and also like a lot
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: of movies in this genre, like the way that that
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: horror film address abuse can sometimes be like overt right,
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: but I think that this movie kind of it's just
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: the stuff. There's a lot of questions left with the doctor.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: I think that like the doctor is sort of using
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: Pin as a grooming tool to some extent here, but
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: also it seemed like I think, at least towards his daughter,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: I think he behaves very inappropriately towards his daughter with
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: regards to her body, like especially when she gets older,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: but I also think when she's younger, like the way
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: that he talks to the kids about their bodies is inappropriate,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: and that that's like a behavior that Leon repeats toward
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Ursula later in the movie, like talking with talking to
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Ursula about her body and her autonomy in a very
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: I mean with Leon, it gets pretty extreme, but like
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: in a very invasive and shamey and inappropriate way, but
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: I was kind of surprised at how and maybe people
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: are like, Jamie, your brain has officially died, but like,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: I'm surprised at how kind of like not banging you
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: over the head with it, they are in the father's
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: behavior because you're so focused on how weird Pin is
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: conceptually right, but like, what he's having Pins say is
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: so creepy, and it's something that I don't think an
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: adult man could get away with saying. Not to say
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: that giving your children the talk is creepy. Obviously it
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: isn't it's the way he's doing it. When he's says it,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: and then he says, take the towel off my lap.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: You're like, that's not how that goes. And also does
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: anyone hose Pin downy Pins esexually active dull.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Pin has juices on him from the nurse.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, yes, it's well.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: I also think that the movie frames the mother character
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: as more overtly abusive because she strikes her son. She
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I read her as just being sort of more overtly
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: abusive versus.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly physically. Yeah, But I also think that the dad, Yeah,
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: the dad is abusive in again, like in a more
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: shades of gray than you would expect in a movie
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: like this, Right, the dad is definitely I mean, they're
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: both emotionally abusive towards their kids, but like their dad
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: is emotionally abusive in this very and then I think
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: you could argue he's physically abusive, but in this very
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: like detached way where the mother's abuse comes through a
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: lot I think, like just through anger and rage, but
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: the dad's abuse, I do. And maybe I'm like overstating.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: I don't want to like use this word irresponsibly, but
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: I do feel like Penn is kind of being used
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: to like groom the children to think about their bodies
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: a certain way. I agree that entitles their father to
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: their bodies.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I also think that the ways in which
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: the dad character is abusive was very normalized for the
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: time and might not have even been read as abuse
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: for audiences who were watching this in the late eighties.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Oh God, I have to believe that my dear friend
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Terry o'quinnin was aware. But this scene is also interesting
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: because this is where Ursula the smartest person in the movie,
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: and this is the scene that I guess I was
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: painting and not looking at the screen because you can
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: see John Locke clearly being ventriloquist and Ursula noticing it
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: and then turning back to Pin and engaging. But the
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: way that Ursula engages with Pin is out of fear
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: versus belief. And then that's like something that remains true
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: for the rest of I don't know, who knows, I
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: guess the rest of her life. You see how Pin ends.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: And just you wait, listeners, but you should have already
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: watched it. You should already know.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: If you're still here, you we trust the And also,
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: oh my gosh, wait, this would be so fun if
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: you watched Pin on YouTube, leave a comment saying the
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: Bechtel has brought me here.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Oh a comment on YouTube?
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I want to see. Yes, please, Let's let's
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: get the Pin video and let's get engagement up. Halloween's
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: right around the corner. We need people watching Pin.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, oh okay. So the kids are getting the
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: sex talk from Pin. He tells them about the urge
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: people get to have sex, and we will talk more
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: about this scene in our discussion. But that's the vibe
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: of the conversation. And then Pinn is like, look at
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: my genitals, and afterward Leon and Ursula talk about kind
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: of what just happened, and it seems as though Ursula
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: is more curious and comfortable talking about sex ruality, while
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Leon seems much less comfortable with it.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which is another interesting, like it's hard to put
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: yourself in like nineteen eighty eight mindset, because I think
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: that there's a read of Ursula's behavior early on that
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: is like a very normal curiosity for a young girl
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: to have, and that is the intent of how it
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: was written. And then I think there's another read of
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: it is like she is like hyper sexual and this
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: is abnormal. I'm not really sure what what read the
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: movie intends you to take, but I like that both
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: are available. I think, well, just because I like the
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: movie PIN, I want to say that it's presented as
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: normal because Ursula is like our final girl and kind
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: of the survivor. Like I think that if she and
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: we've all watched Pins, so this is safe to say,
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: if she like died in a horrible way, I feel
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: like the other read is more.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Likely, right because it would probably seem like the movie
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: is punishing her for having sexual.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: Needs exactly need exactly Yeah, Yeah, but she I mean,
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: she is punished for having the need. But then our.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Foot by her brother, not by the movie.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, that is true, And she meets She's she meets
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: the only nice movie boyfriend I've ever seen. She meets
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: a sweety pie stand the man, a little sweetie, I
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: love Stan.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, okay, so the kids have gotten the sex talk,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: and then we cut to a few years later. Leon
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: and Ursula are now teenagers. Leon is super straight laced.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: He seems to take after his parents quite a bit.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: He's got kind of a proud boy haircut, let's be honest.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: For sure, Yes, he's like wearing a suit to school
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: kind of thing. But Ursula, she seems to be a
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: proud slut. She is sexually liberated and she's wearing it proudly.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: And Leon finds her having sex with a guy in
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: a car, but.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: We also know that she's being bullied for it.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: True. Yes, yes, yeah, there's like graffiti on the lockers
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: because saying that she's easy or whatever.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: Girls and women famously can't win, right yeah.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, anyway, Leon discovers her having sex in a car,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: so he intervenes, beats up the guy, and then ruthlessly
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: slut shames Ursula and basically says, like, if you ever
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: have sex again, you can forget that I'm your brother.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: He's like threatening to disown her, and so she promises
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: not to do it again, but uh oh, it's too late.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: She is pregnant. Ursula reveals to Leon that she believes
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: that she is pregnant, and they debate whether or not
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: they should tell their father or go to a different
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: doctor in town, or how to maybe keep this under wraps.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: But as in all things, Ursula is just absolutely trapped
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: in this web of horrible men, and Leon pertally correctly
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: points out that they live in a small town and
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: it would get back to her father anyways, and.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: So they should just tell him, right, because I guess
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the doctors in this town don't give a shit about
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: hippa violations.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, that is definitely true because that happened to
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: when my mom. That happened to my mom when she
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: got an abortion in the eighties, where a doctor violated
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: hippa roles. So I do think that that concern is
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: well placed, Yeah, for sure. But then it's like, oh,
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: now I have to get an abortion from fucking John
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Locke this and po and pinh my god.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, so yes, here's what happens. Because they don't know
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: exactly what to do, Leon suggests they go to Pin
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: for advice, and Ursula is like, uh, that's not going
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: to work. Pin won't slash, can't talk when our father
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: isn't there. But Leon is like, no, no, no, no,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Pin is going to help us. So they go to
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: their dad's office and talk to Pin, and it seems
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: at first like Pin is not going to respond because
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: doctor Lindon is not there ventriloquizing him, but then twist,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Pin talks to them in his creepy voice. So this
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: is where we're starting to be like, Okay, is Pin
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: sentient or is it Leon throwing his voice and ventriloquizing
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: and Pin.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Ursula is pretty sure it's the latter. Yes, poor Ursula. There.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Ursula is always in a horrible situation, and then Pin
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: comes in and makes it twenty times worse, like.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: It just yeah. So Pin tells them that Ursula should
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: definitely see a doctor if she is pregnant.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: Soles Pin, she wouldn't have known that otherwise, right, So.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Ursula and Leon end up telling their father, and then
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: doctor Lindon gives his own daughter an abortion, presumably a
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: surgical abortion via her vagina.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: She's so I don't I don't know where to begin.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: It's it's so clear that like this is, but this,
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: this I feel like is I don't mean to sound
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: callous by saying payoff, but like I think does sort
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: of pay off on how the doctor talks to his
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: kids about their bodies earlier, so that by the time
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: this happens later, he feels very comfortable asserting autonomy and
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: control over his daughter's body in a way that feels
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: very inappropriate.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Because he also slept shames her before performing.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: Everyone slut shame a portion. Yeah, she doesn't even I mean,
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: we have no reason to believe that a conversation with
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: her mom would go well. It seems like we're led
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: to believe it would go worse than any of the
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: other conversations. But she doesn't even get the opportunity to
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: consider it. Like, both her brother and her father are
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: like that, can't. We're protecting you by slut shaming you
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: and putting you in this awful position, which is just
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: yeah horrible.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Uh Okay. So sometimes passes after the abortion, and one
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: night their father catches Leon asking Pin for advice, and
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: his father is horrified that Leon is talking to Pin.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: It looks like he catches it. That whole scene plays
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: out like he's been caught having sex, which I thought
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: was like very like a fun directorialist raice where it's
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: like he walks in on Leon and Pin basically yeah,
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: and it's like get out of here, you slut.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: He's basically like, Pin is mine. You can't have him.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: That's my dirty boy.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: So he sends Leon home and then doctor Lindon and
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: his wife speed off to some conference or something. It's
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: it's very urgent and they have to get there on time.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: They can't be late. Yeah, and doctor Lindon brings Pin
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: with them.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: He says, curtains on Pin, like mm hmm. Yeah.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: But because doctor Lindon is driving so recklessly, he crashed
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: the car and it's maybe because he's distracted by Pin,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: or that Pin does something to cause the accident. It's
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: all very murky here to your point earlier of like
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: there is Pin sentient? What's happening?
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: This is as close as we get to being invited
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: to believe Pin is sentient, I think, But like they
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: do add An, I wonder if it's ad R two,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Like the mom is like, oh my god, why are
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: you driving so fast? And then she turns around and
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: she's Pin and she's like ah. Then he's like he's
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: like he just well, I took the quarter too hard,
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: Like they give you an explanation as to how Pin
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: could have been setting up, but you're just like, I
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: don't know if Pin is real. Then I also love
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: the movie. There's no version of Pin that I'm like,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: this movie sucks.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Right right and again this scene is like, what are
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: you suggesting? Because after this it starts to become clearer
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: and clearer that Pin is not and has never been.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Cindi in so but this scene really complicates things. In
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: any case, doctor Lindon and missus Lindon die in the
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: car accident. There is a funeral, Leon and Ursula's aunt
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Dorothy tell them that she's going to come and stay
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: with them for a while to care for them now
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: that their parents have passed away.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: I love that. I love Aunt Dorothy for many reasons,
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: one of them being I also read that this movie
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: was shot absurdly out of order, to the point where
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: the actress playing Ursula, whose name is Cindy Preston, but
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: she she had to like keep the storyboards with her
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: whenever she was performing, because they would just have them
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: jumping around so wildly, like in the space of a day. Anyways,
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: the actor playing Aunt Dorothy is not saying Leon's name
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: correctly the whole time. She's just Leyon Layon because she's
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: so she's so.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Fancy, so chic.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: You're not eating your food, Leon, Oh she's cooked.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: She's dead. Yeah. So before she moves in, Leon and
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Ursula are alone in the house and Ursula wakes up
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the night to discover that Leon
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: is talking to Pin. That like he has brought Pin
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: home and they're having a conversation.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: He's pinterested, he's.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: He I get it too, Okay, I love it. It's good.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Also, Leon has dressed Pin in a suit,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: and honestly he should have put him in a pinstripe suit.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: But that would have been Leon doesn't have a sense
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: of humor like that, and it comes to Pin and
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: also in his life when we get to hit Leon's poetry,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: oh god, that is I think viewed in the right way,
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: a like sketch, like it's so fucked up. Yeah's poetry imminent.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: But in the meantime Pinn is now wearing a suit
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's the late doctor Lindon's clothes, and Leon
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: insists that Pin is part of the family, more so
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: than Aunt Dorothy, who Leon ominously says she's not gonna
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: stay with us for very long because she's going to
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: realize that she's not wanted here.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: And also Pen needs his own room, so yeah, Pin's
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: slumming it in the attic and that's not okay now.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Ursula meanwhile, is very freaked out by Pin and doesn't
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: want him around, but Leon reassures her that Pin is fine,
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: he's one of us, He's part of the family, and
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: then Aunt Dorothy moves in. Leon is being very rude
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: to her. Also, the conversations with Pin that he's having
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: are getting creepier and creepier. Penn's voice is also starting
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: to say even creepier. So things are not going well here,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: certainly not. One night, Aunt Dorothy wakes up to discover
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: that Pin is in her bed and like slowly sitting upright.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: She tries to run out, the door is locked, and
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: then she collapses and dies, presumably from a heart attack.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, which is foreshadow She's like, maybe being here will
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: help my heart Leon.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: It's also implied. I think that I read that this
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: she's given slightly more of an arc in the book. Okay,
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: but unfortunately it seems like, you know, Ursula, it's kind
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: of hard to I think Ursula's it seems like she's
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: okay with her being around because it protects her from
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: Pin being front and center. But it is also clear
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: that like every potential guardian or like ally that Arsula
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: comes into contact with prior to meeting Stan, she has
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: an ulterior motive where she wants the house and she
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: like wants to sell their stuff and like wants access
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: to their money.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Sort of like Count oll Off.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: She's I mean, she's not Count O. I feel like
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: there is a Count all Off energy about this, but
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: like but yeah, she's like when she's like, oh, keep
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: the furniture covered, it's so valuable. I guess I was
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: getting the feeling that she wanted to stick around long
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: enough to like get stuff. Sure, she also doesn't seem
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: to be mourning her her bitch sister, not really no,
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: which is like, okay, you know she wasn't a great lady,
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: but anyways.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: Aunt Dorothy, she's got issues of her own.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and she'll know she will never resolve them.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Because right, yeah, not the least of which she she
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: she got killed by pin pin induced heart attack. And
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: then and then Leon pops out from behind Pin. So
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: it seems as though Leon was controlling Pin maybe, but again,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: I feel like we're still not totally sure at this point.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I which again, I'm like, I worked for me.
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: If you're high on paint fumes and aren't really paying attention,
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: you're like Pin is a real guy, for sure. Yeah, sure,
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: he's my friend. Okay.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: So Leon brings Pin back down from the attic and
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: moves him into the room that Aunt Dorothy had been
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: staying in, and the next thing we know, Leon has
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: put Pin in a skin suit, which you alluded to earlier.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Pin Pin skin reveal. I will never forget it is
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: so like it is a it's a great it's such
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: a great production design job too, because it's really hard
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: to say whether the skin makes him worse or better.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: To like, I think he just looks equally scary, but
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: it just like a totally different.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: Way, right right. I I think I'm gonna land on
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: the side that Pin looks even creepier than he because
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: before least Tea resembles, you know, a medical dummy, which
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: you might see in the real world. Pin in skin
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: looks like it's not okay. Nothing you've ever seen before.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: It's not okay.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: It's not okay. And also, I mean, this movie is
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: not being subtle about what's going on with Leon. He's
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: wearing John Locke's clothes. I'm so curious how he did
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: the skin situation. I'm like, I assume here that was
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: a solo job. You can't really like get on.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Task rabbit for that, right, right? Did he make it?
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Did he buy it somewhere to know what is going on?
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Either way, Ursula is like, what the fuck is this?
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: And Ursula She's like, yeah, sure, A likely thing for
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Leon to do is put skin all over Pin.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: M hm. And this leads to a fight between Ursula
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: and Leon. Leon again, do any thing? Oh no, and
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: he threatens to kick Ursula out if she does not
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: accept Pin as being a member of the family, so
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: she sort of has no choice.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: Does he have the right to do this? I honestly
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: am not sure because I'm like, unless their parents were like,
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: we're giving everything to Leon, I'm like, can.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: You even do that? Anyways, I don't know, well, because
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: she's she's a miner, she's a oh.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's it, and Leon is canonically eighteen. We find
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: out that he's he's an adult.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Right do we? I forge we do?
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, we do, okay, so actually that does make sense.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, anyway, things seem to calm down a little
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: bit after this, and this is when Ursula meets a
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: nice young man named Stan.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: She also gets a job. I really love like the
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: moments where like Ursula has like autonomy or like tries
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: to exert control of her life even though she doesn't
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: have any opportunities. But like, yeah, she gets a job
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: at the library. She's really excited about it, and that's
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: where she meets Stan.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: She meets Stan. We can call into question because it's
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: established that Stan is a college student and we know
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: that Ursula is I think sixteen sixteen.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: So.
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I guess I'm not going to comment
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: on that. That's that's a tricky one. But in any case,
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: it's not an egregious age gap, is what I'll say.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: No, because it's he's maybe a freshman. It seems like
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: he's the same age.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say, it seems like their age gap
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: is small enough that I'm just particularly in Ursula's case,
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm not gonna take Stan from her. I
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: cannot good conscience take the first person to be nice
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: to Ursula in her entire life in a sincere way.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, from her right. So he approaches her at the library.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: He has a little crush on her. Ursula tells Leon
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: about it, and he creepily says, well, it's no wonder
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: You've become a beautiful young woman, and you're like, give
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: it a rest man, and it'll get worse again.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Wait till the poetry, Wait till he which reminded me
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: of a movie that I should have put on my Matreon.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: Our listeners would hate it, but it would be really fun.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Get well, I'll get to it when we do the
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: poetry part.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, got it? So Stan asks Ursula out to dinner
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: in a movie. They go, They have a nice time.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Leon seems jealous about this whole situation. Again, he is
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: very sexually repressed. He insists that he doesn't have quote
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: unquote the need. When Ursula comes home from the date,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Leon berates her again, but then he starts wondering maybe
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: he does have the need. So he goes out with
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: this young woman named Marcia, who who.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: We have seen referenced by Leon many times at this
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: point in the movie, going back to when they were children,
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: and he fat shamed her.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, this poor character.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: Again, it's like a character that I don't think that
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: the movie lacks sympathy for. But Leon is just like
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: such a mask off misogynist throughout, and you get the
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: feeling that you know, it is a learned behavior, right.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: And to your point, yes, she had already been referenced
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: before via Leon, first fat shaming her and then later
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: on slut shaming her the way he tends to do
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: to women. Yeah, but he is now on a date
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: with Marcia and she's kissing all over him, but he's
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: still so repressed that he puts a stop to it,
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: and he's like, I have to go check on my
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: friend Pin. So so Marcia, you know, gets dressed and
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: comes out and oh, Spaghettio, there's Pin and he's chasing
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Marcia somehow, And it turns out that Leon has put
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Pin on some sort of like remote controlled real apparatus.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, should Leon just be an imagineer, Like,
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: can we find a productive Can we find a productive
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: use of this ingenuity that isn't quite so scary. It
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: is impressive what he's managing to do. He's making basically
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: a pin animatronic.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: He's building a man he is.
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: He's Doctor Frankensteining Pin. But in this case, luckily Ursula
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: is alerted in time.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, Ursula comes in and saves Marcia. We don't
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: know what would have happened if if Ursula didn't come
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: to the rescue. But the tension is diffused for a
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: bit here.
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: I think another nice touch on this movie too, where
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: it's like you are very conditioned to expect one thing
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: to happen because it is a horror movie. But the
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: quote unquote Final Girl, which I feel like La fills
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: in many ways. And a sexually active woman is like
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: actively spared by the narrative, which I think is like
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: unusual totally and saved by another woman.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've talked at length about the and this
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: is I mean not just us. This is a very
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: commonly known trope as far as in horror movies. If
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: a young woman is has sexual desires or has sex,
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: she's often punished by the plot by being murdered. But yeah,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: this does not happen no in this movie. And even
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: another trope that is spared is we've been talking about
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: this going back to our Indiana Jones episode like eight
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: years ago, that when women do defend themselves in these situations,
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: they usually use household objects, and as we'll get to later.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: That is not what our does.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, let's put a pin in that. Okay,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: So Ursula has come in and saved Marcia. The next day,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Leon is like, oh, I'm sorry, Ursula, I overreacted. Why
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: don't you invite Stan over for dinner? And she's like,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know if Stan is ready to meet Pin,
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: But what she means is, h, I'm not bringing Stan
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: home to see the likes of whatever creepy my scarin. Yeah. Yeah,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: but Leon insists. So Stan comes over. Leon introduces him
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: to Pin. Stan is clearly disturbed, but he's playing along
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: the best he can.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: So nice about it, and and and that like, Ursula
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: is like, obviously briefed him, yes.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: And this is when we learn that Pin is short
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: for Pinocchio, I.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: Know, which You're like, how the hell did I not notice?
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: I mean?
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: And this leads us to realize that we could have
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: the movie Pin during the Pinocchio Wars, because Pin is Pinocchio.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: It's true, he is Pinocchio. But yet he's like, so
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: he's so his own, He's so his own.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: This is true.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: Pin is his own man father, I want to be
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: on my own. That's kind of the Pin kind of
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: like is happy in his situation? Pin?
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: I guess.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Let's explore that further. It's true, okay, so be happy.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: It's not the right word, well, Pin, because I mean
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Pin is only being projected onto so we don't sure.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: We don't know how Pin really feels.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: Leon doesn't seem to be having a great time in
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: his life.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: No, okay. So Stan is over for dinner. He's playing
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: along with the Pin of it all. He wants to
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: hear some poetry that Leon, who is in aspiring writer,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: has written, and Leon reads it and it's it's about
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: sexual violence. It's about a mans raping his sister, and
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: Ursula and Stan are like.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: This reminds me of a Seed that is not quite
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: as bad but is a fascinating movie that Sarah Marshall
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: showed me. I think I told you about. It's called
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: Mister Wrong.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Remind me, okay it is a wait, is this the
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Ellen DeGeneres movie? Yes, but I still need a refresher. Okay,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: so this is pre coming out Ellen. Let me just
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: verify that. Yes, Okay, this came out the year before
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Ellen came out publicly. So it's It's an interesting concept
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: in many ways because it is a I mean, not
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: that Ellen cannot play a straight character, but as we
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: conceive Ellen. And also there's all the other workplace abuse stuff.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: It feels in twenty twenty six bizarre to watch Ellen
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: headline a straight rom com called Mister Wrong.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: But this is what happened in nineteen ninety six. No
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: one talks about this movie. I'd never heard of it
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: before Sarah showed it to me. Shout out Sarah Marshall,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: who was honored Devil's Advocate episode same author as Pin. Yes,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: but it starts Ellen DeGeneres and Bill Pullman, and the
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: plot is fascinating. I feel like it could be adapted
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: into like a neon psychological thriller, but it's a rom
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: com in this case.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: It's alarming how the plots of these two genres really
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: could go one way or the other.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: It's just all about performance and scoring. Those are really
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: the only differences. But yeah, I want the pin rom com.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, should we do that?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Well, it got me thinking about Lars and the real girl.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: Sure, sure, I've never seen that. Actually, but in Mister Wrong,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: Ellen meets and also it is like fun to reflect
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: on because it's like right before she came out and
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: it's her meeting a guy and realizing she don't want
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: to be with him, which is fun. Yeah. Anyways, Bill
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: Pullman like really kind of like love bombs ellen degenerous character,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: and then she quickly figures out he's like the worst
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: guy ever. He's in fact, mister Wrong. And one of
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: the first tip offs that he's mister wrong is he
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: reads her his poetry and it's it is, actually, I
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: think a very funny scene in Mister Wrong. Bill Pullman
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: is putting his whole Bill Pullman ussy into this like
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: very funny, Like it's not sexually violent poetry like Leon's.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: It's more just like a string of adjectives. And then
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: it cuts back to Ellen winsing at like he's like
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: I'm a sailor in the blue, in the depth in
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: the ocean, and like it just keeps going. I just
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: love when men are discouraged from becoming writers. I think
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: that there should be more scenes in film where men
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: try to write and our humiliate. As her soult, I agree.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of the scene in Barbie
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: when all the Kens are totally Matchbox twenty on their
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: acoustic guitars at the Barbie's and they're just like, oh God.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: But then yeah, I mean, never forget that Barbie didn't
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: get a song at Barbie and Ken got a banger.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: I love that song, but why did Barbie not get one?
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: Anyway? Okay, so we've heard Leon's very scary and sexually
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: violent poetry. He goes upstairs to put Pin in his room,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: and as he's coming back downstairs, he overhears Ursula and
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: Stan talking about getting psychiatric help for Leon, and Leon
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: does not like this. He goes back to Pin, who
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: tells Leon that Stan is trying to turn Ursula against
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: him and something needs to be done about it. So
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: Leon invites Stan over under the guys that he needs
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: help planning Ursula's surprise birthday party. Stan comes over, Leon drugs,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: attacks and kills Stan. Pin is in the room. Of course,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: as all this is happening, and he tells Leon to
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: hide Stan's car, put his body in the woodpile, and
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: then come back and clean up the blood off of
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: the rug. Ursula then comes home from work. Leon tells
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: her that Stan called to cancel a date that he
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: had with her that night, and Ursula is worried. She
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: can tell that something is off, but Leon pretends everything
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: is normal.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: Leon is gaslighting, like his life depends on it, which
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: he does. He does, Oh, do you think Stan's cheating
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: on you?
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: And why don't you trust him if you love him
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: so much?
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's like, Sam would never cheat on me,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: and that's so true.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: He would, I know. So they're having dinner, the siblings,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: and then Leon goes off to grab his poetry to
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: read more of it to her, and while he's in
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: the other room, Ursula hears Stan's watch beep, a watch
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: that she had given him as a gift, a Chekhov's
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: watch if you will, which I forgot to mention earlier.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: So she hears the watch beep and then she finds
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: it on the floor, and then notices the wet spot
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: on the carpet where Leon had scrubbed away the blood,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: So she knows something horrible has happened, and she asks
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: Leon what did he do? And Leon's like it was
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: Pin who did it. He and Stan started arguing, and
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: then Stan fell and hit his head and died. So
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Ursula freaks out and runs off and then comes back
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: in with an axe, which is what you were alluding
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: to earlier.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: Hey, woman, you use a weapon in a horror movie
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: that isn't a kitchen.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Knife, yay, or a frying pan or something yea. And
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: she is about to chop Leon, but we don't exactly
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: know what happens because we cut immediately to a bunch
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: of police are at the house. Ursula is in the
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: back of a cop car, and Stan's body is found
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: in the woodpile. But wait, he's alive still, which is
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: you're like sure, sure, And then we cut to some
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: time later, Ursula and Stan, who seems well again, visit
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: the house that she grew up in but apparently does
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: not live there anymore. Ursula goes inside and talks to
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: a figure who's sitting at the window. We only see
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: him from behind at first, but it seems to be
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Pin because he's sitting perfectly still and it's Pin's voice
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: and they're talking about Leon. But then the final shot
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: of the movie is a reveal Leon with frosted tips.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: It is Leon who has apparently dissociated and is now
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: living as Pin. Yes, the end, So let's take a
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: quick break and then we'll come back to discuss and
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: we are back. Yeah, where to start about to Pin boy?
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: I feel like we've touched on a lot of themes
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: that just we need to dig into a little further here.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think obviously the issue of mental illness
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: is brought up in the year, which we've talked about
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: a number of times in the context of how mental
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: illness is invoked in horror movies, that it's like such
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: a difficult conversation to have because of course it shouldn't
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: be off limits in any genre of movie, but this
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: movie does do something that always bothers me. I think
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: the biggest example of it that I always think of
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: is at the beginning of Midsomar, Yeah, where you see
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: mentally unstable behavior, which is like so much of horror,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: you cannot extract that from the genre, right, But the
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: issue is that it is like given a specific it
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: is attributed to a specific mental illness and then serves
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: to stigmatize people with that illness and usually is wildly
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: inaccurate and implies that anyone who has said mental illness
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: is murderous and right, which is what happens towards the
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: end of PIN. I forgot that it happened because we
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: get so far in without it, because I think it
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: just as easily reads, and maybe if it was made
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: today would read as like Pin is this you know,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: certainly like Leon is not mentally well. But I feel
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: like PIN to me kind of clearly embodies this generational
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: trauma that like, this trauma around perception of self and
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: repression and attitudes around sex that is inherited from his
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: father who originally voiced PIN, And I feel like that
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: explanation it makes more narrative sense, and it doesn't stigmatize
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: anyone who has schizophrenia. And it's so frequently schizophrenia that
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: is attributed to any charcutory board of behaviors, most of
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: which have nothing to do with schizophrenia, which is a
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: treatable illness. But yeah, I guess I was sort of
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: confused at how it comes up here, because it's towards
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: the end makes very little. I mean, I guess it's
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: spoken in the context of Ursula say I don't want
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: my brother to be institutionalized, which I think is complicated
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: because you don't because that, you know, suggests that getting
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: help with mental illness is only a bad thing or
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: like will ostracize you from your family. But there are
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: enough examples of that being the case that it's like,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: I understand why she's concerned about that, especially in the
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: context of an institution.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: I mean totally, especially in the I mean in the
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: late eighties where like psychiatric help was still not the
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: best in most cases still can.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: Be a wildly misogynist race, I mean, like homophobic. There
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: are so many ways that.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: Ablest like go down the list. But but yeah, I
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: almost read that is like she doesn't want him to
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: be in an institution where he would likely be further
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: abused and mistreated and things like that, but we don't
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: know for sure. Also, it's her who diagnoses him, and
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: it's her who it's Ursula who like mentions the specific
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: mental illness, so which she says based on having read
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: books about it at the library. So she's not a
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: she's not a mental health expert or at least certainly
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: not a professional. Not to say that people you know
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: who do their own research can't be correct in a
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: diagnosed as they give themselves or give someone else. But
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: either way we have to take what she's saying with
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: a grain of salt. I would say it.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: Does feel like very of the time and would continue
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: to be of the time for decades after, because Midsommar
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: comes out what thirty years after Pin? But like, is
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: this process of ascribing any mental illness to murderous behavior? Yes,
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: it's very unnecessary, and I wanted to point that out.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: It's so funny because you're like, well, this is sure.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: Is that harmful?
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: Has anyone seen pin unclear? Unclear this had the opportunity
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: to do harm? But as worth mentioning, well.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: I also feel like the movie sort of suggests, and
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: I'm curious what you think about this, but it feels
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: like the movie sort of suggests that the mental illness
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: that Leon has is part of what leads to his
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: intense sexual repression. Sure, some of it is environmental, some
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: of it is his father's behavior and his father things
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: that their dad says about sex, and like the bizarro
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: sex talk that Penn gives the kids, which we'll talk
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: about further. But I feel like based on what we
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: hear the parents say or don't hear the parents say,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: because they're not they're definitely abusive and cold and cruel
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: as parents, But I felt like they weren't like super
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: super driving home a need to repress sexual desire. So
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: I kind of, I mean a little bit. But also
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: and I know that the dad slut shames ursula, but
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: I didn't really get any strong indication that he was
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: saying to Leon like repress any need you might have.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: No conversation felt a bit more just like clinical, And
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: it was definitely weird.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: The sex talk, I guess I don't I don't think
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: that there's in my opinion, there's not enough information to
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: suggest that they're placing it on the mental illness. If anything,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: I think it's like a mix of things, because I
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: do feel like the father encourages both children to have
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: disordered relationships to sex and their bodies, not in the
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: same way. But I think that just Pin alone, giving
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: you the talk like that that gives you a disordered
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: relationship to how bodies are talked about, how sex is
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: talked about. The and the nurse fucking Pin seems to
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: really do a number on Leon.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: As well.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: So I feel like it's a combination of Like, clearly
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: whatever is like the environmental stuff is exacerbated by the
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: mental illness. But I don't know. I didn't think it
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: was suggested that that it was solely that fair, But
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It so hard to tell what we're
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: supposed to believe after watching Pin right, well, so.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: To talk more about the sex talk that Pin aka
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: their father gives them via Pin, it starts out by
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: saying that, like, people have a biological imperative to reproduce
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: and that creates the quote unquote need. And of course
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: the way that this is framed is like very gender essentialist,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: it's very heteronormative. It also erases a sexual people because
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: at one point, Ursula asks if every person will have
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: the need or has the need, and Pin responds with
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: if they're normal, they do so.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: It just like I think, yes, I agree, I think
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: that this is attitude of the time. And also Pin
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: is not a character who we're supposed to be, Like,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: if Pin said it, it must be true.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Right, But when you can consider that it's doctor Lyndon
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: saying these things, who is a medical doctor. No, he's horrible,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: but that's my point. My point is that his attitude
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: toward sex and human sexuality, even though he is a
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: man of science, he is a medical doctor, he still
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: has a very regressive and repressive way of looking at
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: human sexuality, which again reflective of the time. But also
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: just to share a little anecdote of a doctor's appointment
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: that I had in recent years that demonstrates that so
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: many doctors harbor whatever like biases they have from whatever
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: that they bring that into their medical practice. Because this
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: was a few years ago when I was trying to
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: get my tubes tied pre hysterectomy. I had gone to
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: a doctor. I had said I want to go off
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: of birth control has made me more or less completely
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: lose my libido. The particular birth control I was on.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: The doctor, who was a woman by the way, asked
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: if I had a partner and I said no, and
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: she said, well, then how do you know that you
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: don't have a libido? I've probably shared.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: This story before this, but you're just like man, and.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: I'm just like you are like And then then I
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: had to explain human sexuality to a doctor, which was
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: absolutely nuts. But uh, I feel like this movie actually
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: does a good job of showing the ways in which
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: like sexual repression and misunderstandings of sexuality can permeate medicine
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: and can influence certain doctor's attitudes and can affect the
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: way they treat patients totally.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like they're everyone in this. It doesn't
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: stop at the doctor, look at the nurse, everyone at
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: the in this doctor's, this Pia Patrician's office has a
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: disordered relationship to the way they think of sex and bodies.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: And again, not shaming using a sex doll, I'm shaming
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: using a sex doll at your place of work with
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: the door open with a child outside. Don't do that.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: Don't do it.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: That's a good point. Yeah, it's like that. There is
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: so much because of how, because of how we're socially
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: conditioned to view doctors, which in a best case scenario
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: wouldn't be harmful, as like someone who is not going
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: to bring their own social conditioning into a work setting,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: but they so often do, especially if you are marginalized
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: in any way.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The issue of biases affecting medical professionals goes beyond
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: the topic of sexuality and it extends to you know,
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of racism in medicine, there's sexism, there's
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: fat phobia, there's transphobia, there's again ableism and agism, like
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: all of this stuff that often significantly harms patients. And
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: then the irony is that when Ursula finds out she's
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: pregnant and wants to avoid the shame that's going to
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: come along with like being teen pregnant and who do
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: we tell and how do we maybe keep this a
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: secret from our parents kind of thing, Pin says, Pin
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: and Leon say, like telling a doctor, even if it's
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: your father. You know, that's an objective person of science.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: They're not going to bring morality into it, which is
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: not what happens because in the next scene, doctor Lindon,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: who is about to perform an abortion on his own
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: daughter again, I cannot stress enough how fucking horrifying and
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: horrible that is. He says, like, Wow, after all the
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: time that Pin took to explain sex to you and
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: give you a better start than I ever had, I
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: still end up with a pregnant, teen pregnant daughter. It's
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: but then it goes back to like sex ed and
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: the sex talk that pinnaka doctor Lindon gave the kids,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: which is like, Okay, well doctor, did you talk about
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: contraceptives and safe sex? Did you talk about consent?
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 3: Like, clearly not based on how like he and Leon,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, Leon, you can see he takes a very
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: judgmental approach to That's why I'm like, I think that
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 3: there's stuff going on with the father that we don't see.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: And this is again me kind of projecting, but like,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: the way that Leon talks to his sister does not
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: come from nowhere, and he has such a shame forward
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: approach even when they're very young, like it and in
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: their approach, like where she's interested. She's like looking at
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: a Playboy issue, which you're like, I hope those are
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: inserts from the child actors, but like, but either way
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: that he's like horrified by her. Like he has a
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: very armslength relationship to sex and bodies from the time
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: he's very young, And I do feel like that is
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 3: sort of connected to how he's fought because his father
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: is so disconnected emotionally from others that he can't have
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 3: a discussion with bodies with his own children without a mannequin.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: Pressent having a pin there, right, So it's like I
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 4: do feel like that there's a pretty like well mapped,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 4: like you're saying, like there's medical bias and abuse layered
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 4: onto it, and these kids are just like raised to
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 4: be so like I just have a disordered relationship to
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 4: their body that it seems like Ursula spends a lot
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: of her life trying to like understand and reclaim, but
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 4: doesn't have anyone to talk to about it because she
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 4: the only person she has to go. I mean, I
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 4: guess she does have the friend, but we don't really
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 4: see them talk or that relationship build. We just know
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 4: they've been friends for a long time, and she clearly
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 4: doesn't know her friend, clearly doesn't know enough to know
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 4: not to go on a date with Leon. So I
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 4: can't imagine they're especially close because if my best friend's
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 4: brother was Leon and I knew all that Leon and Penn,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't be like, yeah, let's go on a date.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: Frankly, but it just seems like she goes to Leon
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: for emotional support and he cannot give it to her,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: and I just feel so poor Ursula. Ursula is trying
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 3: so hard to and it also seems like she's trying
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: to live up to other social expectations of her, which
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: include that of being a caretaker to her brother and
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: shielding him from the judgment of the world and like
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: taking that on, which does feel like a very feminine expectation, right,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: is that she defaults to caretaker when her mother dies,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: she defaults to I clean the house now. And I
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 3: do feel like it's like intentionally done in the movie
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: where there's like a moment where Leon sits down after
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: their parents die and Ursula sort of lingers for a
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 3: second and then starts to clean up, and it just
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 3: feels like they're It felt like a moment where it's like, oh,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: they're starting to like click into these roles because they don't.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: There's just like a void of order.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: That's not about that too. But then it's Leon who
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: seems to cook all of the meals, so he's okay, prettysive,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: so actually feminist icon.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 3: Don't worry about all the woman murders. Actually, and then
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: he does try to kill stands, so you know he's
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 3: open to killing people of alt true, But yeah, I mean,
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: and then I think it's I almost I don't feel
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 3: like we have time to get into this as fully
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: as maybe we I don't know if should is the
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: right word, but like the themes of incest that I
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: hear come up far more in the book, which kind
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: of scans to me because the writer Andrew Niederman, who's
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: still living and also wrote the original screenplay to The
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: Amityville Horror and The Devil's Advocate, but he was the
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: talk about feminist icon. He was the ghost writer for
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: horror writer VC Andrews after she died for decades, and
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: her work when she was alive, and then the ghost
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: written work after she died. This was a frequent theme
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 3: that would.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: Appear in her horror incest was.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: Incest or like disordered, like disordered relationships to sex, growing
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: up with a family. So while I didn't read the
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 3: book because it just did not sound like a fun
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: way to spend a weekend, and I like the movie,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: I hear that that seems to come up far more.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 3: But the change made for the movie is that that
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: set of I don't know how to properly describe it,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: that set of disordered feeling and thinking that manifests an
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: abusive behavior towards his sister is sort of kept exclusively
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: to Leon. I guess in the book they're both struggling
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 3: with this, But in the movie, which I think sort
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: of plays to like you're saying of how heavily emphasized
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: Leon's mental illnesses, specifically where I think the book even
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: though Leon is the pin Enabler in the book of
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: the Pinnabler the Penultimate but that they both sort of
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: fall into this mental health crisis after their parents die
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: where in the movie, And I think I prefer this
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: like that Ursula is more focused on trying to move
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 3: forward with her life and being met with nothing but
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: expectations that are far more than should be expected of
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 3: a teenage girl, that protecting her brother from what she
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 3: fears will be an abusive institutionalization, navigating her own relationship
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 3: to her body and sex, which is very disordered because
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: she is forced to vow abstinence to her brother brother
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 3: and not to mention all of the weird stuff with
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: her father as well, and it seems like the total
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: void of a relationship with her mother. So she goes
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: from you know, being like a sexually active teenager, which
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 3: we don't really have enough information to know, like is
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: she just like doing what teenagers do? Is she like
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: acting out? We like don't know. It could be some
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: column a columbe CALLM C. Whatever but she makes a
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 3: pretty severe one eighty on that and goes to being
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: completely complicit to what her brother says she should do,
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: sort of as a punishment for having gotten this abortion.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 3: It seems like they're like, well, the way to avoid
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: getting pregnant again is to completely cut yourself off from
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: the need, so that the fact when she meets Pin
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: and quote unquote, the need comes back. Even though I
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: think for Ursula they when she meets oh my god,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: our boyfriend Pin, what does she fall in love with
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: the Pin? Oh my god? And then it's and it's
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: so love triangle.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, But when she meets Stan, oh, I my argument
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 3: for Ursula is the need for her is actually just
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: a need for genuine connection with someone, where I think
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 3: that the need as it manifests, actually is something that
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: affects almost everybody you know, and she's coming of age
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: and all of this stuff. But like by the time
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: we're at like the midpoint of this movie, I think
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: the need for Ursula like it is sexual. It seems
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: like she and Stan are sexually active. We see him
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: topless opening a watch at some point like relatively if
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: they have sex, which I also think is a really
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: good plot point for Ursula because that shows that she's
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: directly going against what her brother has demanded of her,
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: and that where I normally don't whatever, we tend to
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: be pretty ambivalent towards like a love interest shoehorned in.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: But I think like Stan serves because Ursula pursues and
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: gets a job that she likes. I think Stan serves
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 3: like a narrative purpose that is very active for her,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 3: where it's like she is standing up to her brother,
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: she is seeking out emotional safety that she's never had before,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: and she's you know, not buying this the horror movie
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: trope that if I have sex, I won't survive the movie,
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 3: because she does, and so I like the stand relationship.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: She seems to be realizing more and more that perhaps
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: her brother is not right about a lot of his
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: views on sexuality, imagine that he's perhaps a bit unstable,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: and that she shouldn't listen to him yet. And then
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: she starts kind of breaking away from the stronghold he
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: has on her behavior, particularly as it relates to her sexuality,
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: and kind of in an act of defiance, says, well,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: I'm going to just do my own thing and pursue
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: what I want and fulfill my need if I so choose.
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: I agree, and yeah, and I like on Stan's and
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: that Stan is it seems like because sometimes this is
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: like a good and this could be a relationship of
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: any kind, like it doesn't need to be romantic, but
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: that like he is articulating things that she needs to hear,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: and it makes sense that she hasn't been able to say.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 3: But like, I mean, do I wish for for Stan's
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 3: sake that he maybe waited until they were in a
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: second location to bring up all the like, clearly your
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: brother needs help and is scaring me? Why he looks
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: What's that skin suit he's wearing?
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 3: But that has it's so funny when we're talking about
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: this seriously because you're like, oh, right, we're talking about Pin.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: But like that has to be affirming for Arthula because
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 3: that's something that she's had in the back of her
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 3: mind for years but can't talk about with anybody out
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: of fear of the consequences of talking about it, and
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 3: that like Stan, it seems like is the first person
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: that can just I mean, that's such a powerful thing
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: to be like, hey, I also see Pin, and I'm
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: also scared of Pin.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: That's powerful for sure, But that makes me think of
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: the one scene where their mother and Pin are in
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: close proximity to each other, which is the car scene.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: But it's clear that their mother thinks Pin is freaky
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: and weird and doesn't like Pin. So why so I'm wondering, like,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: why wasn't there may be a conversation between Ursula and
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: her mother where they're talking about how uncomfortable makes them.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: You're not wrong, And my guess is that because this
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: is written and directed by men, and men tend not
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: to think about women interacting, can you believe it, So
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: they can't really conceive of what a conversation between two
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: women or a woman and a girl or whatever would
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: look like. So that's why we don't have that. But
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: it's established that both of the women in the family,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: like have a lot of uneasiness around Pin.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: Women do not trust Pin, and with good reason except
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 3: for that nurse. Except for that, nurses are closest She's
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: right or die for. Look, sometimes we are attracted to
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: toxic people and even toxic pins.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: Toxic pins, toxic pins.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 3: Anyways, Yeah, Pin is scary. I like the stand relationship.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 3: I will say I think that there was equal opportunity
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 3: for this to happen with Ursula with a friend, particularly
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 3: the friend who ends up going on a date with Leon.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 3: I do feel like that character is well used, but
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: I sort of was wondering why Ursula wouldn't have had
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: a more open relationship with her that too. Yeah, but
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 3: I think that where Stan gets the edge there is
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 3: like if everyone in this movie absolutely has to be
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: straight or pin because it's nineteen eighty eight, that like
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 3: the sexual component of her relationship with Stan is also
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: kind of like important to why they're being together. Makes
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 3: sense in the story because it's like she's getting that
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: emotional closeness and she's like not falling into the Leon
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 3: superstition that having sex means that your life is over
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: or whatever, you're damaged or whatever.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, this is a movie about how
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: being sexually repressed, which is a learned behavior. This is,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: you know, Leon learned this, How detrimental that can be.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: It can lead to people dying, getting chopped with an axe.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 3: Pinned, crash your car. H Also, it seems like maybe
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: John Locke starts to realize this ten seconds before.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: He dies, that Pen is maybe bad news.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 3: No, well not the Pin is bad news. But that
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 3: like the way that he has conditioned his children to
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: think is unsharpy to them. You know, based on what
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 3: we know about the character, I don't think we're led
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: to believe he's going to have a positive change to
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: his life as a result. But it did seem like that,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 3: like register that, like, oh, the me doing this like
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 3: hurts Leon, right, because.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: He's horrified to learn that. Leon goes and has full
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: dialogues with Pin, and it seems like he realizes, like, oh,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: oh no, what have I done if I had only
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: just talked to my son directly for once in my
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: life and not only communicated him via making him count
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: backwards from one hundred by sevens, which, by the way,
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: that scene, so it seems like Leon and Ursula are
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: like two or three years apart in.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: Age, right, Yeah, something like that.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it seems like in that scene when their
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: dad is like making them do counting and or math,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: he says to Ursula, who seems to be about five
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: at the time, to count to ten, and then Leon,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: who's only two years older than her, has to count
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: backwards from one hundred by sevens. But my point is, like,
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: surely Ursula can do slightly more complicated things with numbers
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: than simply just counting to ten.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: I think that that's like intentional though, right, like he
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 3: is setting Leon up to fail, and like it almost
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 3: feels that's how I read it, is like and or.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: He underestimates the capabilities of girls because he's sexist.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know. Yeah, I read that as like
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 3: him like enacting this. That's why I mean, like the
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: mother's abuse is far more direct, But I do feel
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 3: like the father's behavior is intended as abuse, but like
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 3: a far more like psychologically torturous. Like I think that
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 3: that was like a humiliation ritual, Like he doesn't even
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 3: make physical contact with Leon. He just wants him to
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 3: feel bad about himself before going to bed, which is
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: so horrible.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: That's so evil, right, because later there's a scene between
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: Leon and Ursula where Leon speaks to clear resentment he
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: has towards his parents and the psychological damage they did
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: to him. It's when he's like pouring wine over the
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: tablecloth and being like, oh, my god, mother would hate
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: this and father would hate that we're drinking wine.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: He said, let's go and let's get a little silly,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: and Ursula understand. I don't know or I do I
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 3: even though it's like it freaks you out because you're like,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 3: anytime she stands up to Leon, she's in danger, unfortunate,
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 3: and that's so many I mean, she is in a
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 3: domestic abuse situation with her brother, yes, but also it
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 3: is as a viewer very satisfying for her to be like,
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 3: I can't eat it at the table with fucking Pin.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 3: This sucks and he's like, I'll.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: Take it up with Pin.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: Pin says it's okay. You're like, fuck you, Leah. I look,
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: this movie is so awesome.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yeah.
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of, like what else there is
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 3: to say. I mean, I think that there's opportunities for
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 3: I mean getting into I do believe it passes the
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: Bechtel test not often, but there I forget, Well, this
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: is maybe proving the point. But like her boss at
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 3: the library does have a name, and they talk about
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: they like do have like a few exchanges. So I am, well,
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 3: it's one of my one of my favorite movies. But
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: it is like a movie I really like, and I
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 3: want to give it the edge because I do think
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 3: that the movies. I think the movie has a lot
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 3: of empathy for both of the siblings, but especially Ursula.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: It's like more subversive than it seems, even though I
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 3: think a big failure of it is you know, I
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: don't know. I don't feel qualified to decide how this
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: handles incest. I'm assuming not very well. But I think
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 3: that there are we were presented with a number of
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 3: women who could have had a bigger role in the story,
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 3: and don't I think, yeah, that it feels very written
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 3: by a man, directed by a man that you know,
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 3: it's the relationship to their father that is the one
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 3: that shapes their lives for better and for worse, their
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 3: mother's present, but we do not as present Ursula find
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 3: solace in a relationship, in a romantic relationship with a man,
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 3: not maybe with the friend that we know.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: She's close with, more Marcia. Trust more Marcia.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 3: But I also think we're presented with a lot of
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 3: classic horror setups that are like very intentionally subverted in
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 3: Ursula's favor, where she is the final girl, she's not
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 3: using a frying pan. Marcia lives and is saved by Ursula.
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 3: So I don't know, it's it's it's a very very
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 3: mixed bag. I feel this movie in terms in terms
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 3: of Bechdel cast, it is a mixed fact as a
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 3: movie to watch.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: You gotta watch Pin. It's it's on the pinometer. It's
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: a ten out of ten.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 3: That's there's so many different pin rank your favorite Pin?
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: Look?
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 3: Are you into skin pin or no skin? Pin? Uh?
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: No skin plus suit or no skin naked like a
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: clothing suit not skin suit? Right?
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Dead father suit on pin or maybe not?
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: Or fully new food with an anatomically correct penis?
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: Is that covered in skin? Or do we keep that raw?
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 3: So many questions with regards to Pin. But I do
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 3: believe it pastest. I believe you.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't pay attention.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 3: I do believe it does. I don't think it you know,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 3: not handily, but I think it technically does. Okay, what
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 3: is your what is your nipple rating for the film Pin.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: I'll give this. I feel like it's a split down
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: the middle because it does feel like such a mixed bag.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: I think it is doing something interesting by commenting on
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: like in cell slash val cell mentality and how that
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: sexual repression which often manifests as utter rage and often
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: violence toward women. The movie like acknowledges that examines it
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: in I think pretty effective ways. I don't know, I
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 2: think so. It's such a wild movie. But and again
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: to your point, the tropes that are being subverted, as
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: far as teen girls who are sexually interested and have
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: clear sexual desire not being punished by the plot of
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: the movie for that, they are punished by men around
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 2: them who are harboring, you know, sex negative attitudes and
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: misogyny and the double standards around being sexually active from
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: a gender point of view, and they're so quick to
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: slept shame teen girls and women. So all of that
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: stuff is pretty interesting.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: It's a rich text, you can rich text.
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's say two and a half nipples, two
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: and a half plastic skin suit nipples that we are
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: to believe Pin eventually has. Yes, Okay, and I'm giving
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: them to Ursula, who that actor looks so much like
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: Taylor Swift to me, just throwing that out there.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 3: She does kind of look like eighties Taylor Swift. That's
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 3: so interesting.
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'll give them to Ursula, and I'll give
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: my half nipple to Marcia. She deserved more. Yeah, she
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: was a cutie.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 3: I am also going to go two and a half.
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 3: I think that's a fair rating for Pin. It's I
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 3: think it's it's so tricky because it's like, I think
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 3: it's doing a lot of really interesting subversa things. It's
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: doing a number of less so and then it's doing
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 3: a bunch of third things that I don't fully know
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: if it's doing a good or bad job, but it
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 3: kept my attention.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: Is Pin sentient in the car or otherwise shrug, just
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 3: I I I will say, I really, I really enjoy
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: this movie. I think this is a super fun movie
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 3: to like what it's like a sleepover movie. It's so weird. Yeah,
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 3: so bring Pin to your friend if I mean, I
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 3: guess with the appropriate trigger warnings, but bring Pin to
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 3: your friends. You'll never see a mannequin the same again,
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 3: that would actually be a good theme because there's there
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 3: is that Kim Control movie Mannequin as well that I've
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 3: seen with Briant.
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: It's a weird one. The Real Girl size, which we've
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: covered on the Matreon.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 3: I think Mannikinuary, think about it, think about it anyways. Yes,
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 3: I'm going to give it two and a half nipples.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: Two to ursula and have to the pile of wood
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: that barely hides stands apparently a live body. Yeah, and
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 3: I think that's going to do it for Pin.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: Happy birthday, Jamie.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm noticing no one's wished me a happy birthday.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 3: Kind of interesting, Okay.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: Pin, I wished you one at the beginning of the episode.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: If you recall, remember I want happy.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, you know what. I don't think I
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 3: heard that, because when you do Pin voice, it cuts
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 3: out on the zoom it because it's too scary.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: You're a while zoo tracering Pin, I retract.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize you said that because your good voice disappears.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: That's how I opened the episode. Wow.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 3: Well, uh, you know, happy happy birthday. For my birthday,
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know, Caitlyn, I should text you.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 3: I got to make some plans and then the day
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 3: after my birthday, I'm going to see my nieces and nephews.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 3: So I'm excited about that.
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what a lovely gift.
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 3: I will not be showing them Pin.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: Good fun.
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 3: But yeah, thank you so much for listening, listeners, thank
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 3: you for watching Pin. I'm assuming if you made it
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 3: this far. Also, if you made it this far, if
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 3: we haven't released it already, there are tour announcements on
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 3: the way for this fall and beyond for our ten
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 3: year anniversary tour, keep your eyes peel for that. As always,
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: the best way to support the show is by subscribing
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 3: to our Patreon ak Matreon, Caitlyn, you just mentioned that's
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 3: where our life Size episode is, where over two hundred
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 3: episodes are and it's been the same price for almost
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 3: ten years. Five dollars a month gets you access to
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 3: the entire back catalog as well as two new episodes
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 3: on a theme of ours or your choosing, every month,
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 3: and it is it is the way to keep the
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 3: Bextel cast afloat. So as a birthday gift to me,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 3: become a matron or just remain a matron.
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: Please, and you can enjoy Jamie's Birthday picks over on
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: the Matreon this month, which is minised too. And two
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: thousand and one a space Odyssey.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, really really expanding what two can mean in the
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 3: title of a movie.
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: It's so pactic.
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 3: Thank you for watching Pin again, Caitlin. It's a birthday miracle.
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I had a pretty good time, so thank you.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 3: It's a good time all right.
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 2: Bye, Bye, Jamie Baking.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 3: produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: And Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: Sophie Lichtermann and.
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 3: Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them? That's Me
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 3: and our logo and merch and all of our artwork
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 3: in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever Heard of Her?
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: Oh My God?
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 3: And our theme song, by the way, was composed by
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 3: Mike Kaplan.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 3: Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo.
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: Spectel Cast