Latest / Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between / 왜 우리는 늘 ‘사이’에 있는 것처럼 느낄까?Belonging Is Messy — Here’s Why (from a Psychologist Who Lived It) Part 1

Transcript

왜 우리는 늘 ‘사이’에 있는 것처럼 느낄까?Belonging Is Messy — Here’s Why (from a Psychologist Who Lived It) Part 1 · Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between

• 0:00
  Being in this in between space is so hard.
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  It's so ambiguous. You feel like you're alone.
• 0:05
  Doesn't give sense of comfort. You want to be either this or
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  that. It's very.
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  Healthy and uncertain and. Uncomfortable the concept of
• 0:13
  your Korean American It's so hard.
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  It's hard for adults too. Why do we think that it's so
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  easier for the the little one? We want to choose one over the
• 0:21
  other. Tuon You is 1.5 generation
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  bilingual psychologist who focuses on the bicultural
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  development. Welcome, Tuon.
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  I'm a licensed psychologist working with children and
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  families. I'm based in New Jersey.
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  A huge fan of your your. Thank.
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  You out there? I appreciate that, I mean who
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  would be a better guest than you who are truly living out the 1.5
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  life right you and I? Both definitely.
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  And it's ongoing. It's like identity development.
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  It's hard to find someone who could just get it.
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  When we say, you know, I am so confused.
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  I don't know if I am Korean, American, American or Korean.
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  Everybody tells me something different.
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  I don't know what I'm supposed to be, but I feel like somebody
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  like you would totally get it. As soon as I say those things,
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  you'll be like, yeah, I know what you're talking about.
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  My personal journey of, you know, finding my own bicultural
• 1:23
  identity that that really helped me become more curious about
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  what other people's journey is like and, and you know, how we
• 1:31
  can have those kind of conversation more comfortably.
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  We all have our reasons and stories why we do certain things
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  right. How did you get started being a
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  psychologist and also specializing in the bicultural
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  identity issue? So I find I was very interested
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  in psychology ever since I was very young.
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  And it's I was born and raised in Korea.
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  I came here as a high school exchange student when I was 15.
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  But like, so I graduated middle school in Korea and around like
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  Chungi Chung Ham, I was interested in psychology and
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  that at that time, my mom actually studied psychology in
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  grad school as she was working. So I kind of become interested
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  in like the changes that I see in my mom.
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  And, you know, psychology is something that's like really
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  nice. And then the silly thing is that
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  like one thing that confirmed like, oh, this is what I want to
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  do was when I read something a safe book, I think the touting
• 2:41
  the lead singer and touting wrote kidding me a lot.
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  Right there is a mention of like her majoring in psychology.
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  This is what I want to do. I want to be like her.
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  I want to I want to study psychology.
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  So it was kind of like it started in with the curiosity in
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  this field and then do it and like really interested in this
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  when I started my, you know, exchange student experience in
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  the US because everybody was very encouraging when I said,
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  you know, I'm interested in studying psychology.
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  And I think that might not have happened in Korea if I stayed
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  and spend my high school years in Korea because I've heard a
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  lot of people say you don't mind thinking about.
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  So I think because of that, like uninterrupted kind of time in my
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  teen years that like I was able to really think about, you know,
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  what I want to do, like what I'm interested in, things like that.
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  So, you know, throughout my grad school years and my training,
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  the big part of the counseling psychology program that I was in
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  is, is really about your identity, like who makes who you
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  are and, and what sort of identity you carry, Not just
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  like race and ethnicity, but also, you know, religion, you
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  know, socioeconomic status and intellectual gender identity and
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  all of those things all together.
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  So it really gave me a great experience in terms of like
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  exploring, exploring all different parts of my identity.
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  And it was just really fascinating and, and like my own
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  self reflection gave me a better understanding of like how other
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  people's story might be and being more interested in their
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  narratives. So I think it was a good
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  starting point before I learned about the concept of bicultural
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  identity. There is wasn't really any like
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  the labels that we use that really fit me.
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  So I struggled to identify myself as an immigrant.
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  Like it didn't really fit, you know, my identity because my
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  parent like I wasn't like immigrant coming here to live.
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  I was here. Like temporarily.
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  As an exchange student and I hope held to that identity for a
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  really long time. And then I didn't really see
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  myself as Korean American because I had like certain image
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  in my mind that like how Korean American should be and I, I
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  wasn't. Like that?
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  I wonder what that is? We can talk about that later.
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  Yeah. But you know, and then I didn't
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  get into this Asian or Asian American you.
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  Know. The label itself.
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  So I really was lost in like in ways to describe who I am as a
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  person. And even that label like
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  international student didn't really fit me anymore.
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  I was trying to like find the word, like right word.
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  And then, you know, when I, you know, encounter this concept of
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  bicultural identity, it really gave me the like the language to
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  describe who I am as a person. So that was aha moment.
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  So it gave you a language to describe who you are.
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  What was that? What was that language?
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  What were the words? So the, the whole concept of,
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  you know, bicultural identity, you know, it's basically living
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  with two cultural selves. You know, it's like there's my
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  Korean side and there's my American side.
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  And, and it's about figuring out, you know, how they fit
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  together, you know, and there's one psychologist, Veronica
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  Bennett Martinez, who called this as like bicultural identity
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  integration, you know, because we sometimes experience these
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  two cultures feel blended in, right, and then feel very
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  natural. But other times they feel very
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  like separate or even in conflict.
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  That's kind of how I experience things.
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  It's, it's just not like, you know, I have this like very
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  strong Korean American identity. But like underneath that, even
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  if I say that I'm Korean American, underneath that there
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  are lots of kind of back and forth and being in like moments
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  where I'm, I'm feeling in conflict or the moments I feel
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  very proud of having two cultures, you know, in my hands,
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  you know, so, so it's that that like bicultural identity by
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  cultural identity integration, that itself kind of gave me like
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  it was like, oh, like my experience, like somebody else
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  is experiencing, you know, what I've experienced.
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  And like, it felt very validating for me to kind of
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  know the concept, right. And, and also like different
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  researchers talk about how bicultural identity integration
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  has lots of, you know, psychological benefits, more
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  creativity, you know, people can have greater cognitive
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  flexibility and like better at perspective taking so people can
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  be more empathic and, you know, things like that.
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  And I feel like, you know, my like through my experience of
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  bicultural identity development, I have become the person who
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  genuinely curious about how other people would be like.
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  And I could, I was able to break the stereotypes of, you know,
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  other, many other things, including, you know, my own
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  image of how Korean American should be or Asian American is,
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  you know, things like that made me a better person because I was
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  able to understand my experience better.
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  Wow, that's so great. I, I think so.
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  I I think I experienced the same developmental evolvement over
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  the years because I am finally at a place where I feel more.
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  More comfortable. Of who I am as a whole person so
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  that's that's really great so much to talk about this is
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  really. Exciting.
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  Definitely, yeah. And, and I think, you know, this
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  may come, I think with age, with more experience, but definitely
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  with more self exploration, self reflection and be willing to be,
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  you know, vulnerable with yourself, you know, and, and
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  the, the process of understanding our own identity
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  and being OK with nature of identity development, that it's
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  ongoing. It's never done right.
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  This is so exciting. This type of things get me
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  excited. I love to talk to you.
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  Too me too. That's why I love your your
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  work. Yeah.
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  I mean, I hope to be able to share with more and more people.
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  And like you said before, it is validating to know that, Oh
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  yeah, the people have very similar experience, similar
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  questions and thoughts about who we are, how we arrive at a place
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  where we are, you know, feeling somewhat.
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  Comfortable. About not only culturally, but
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  who who we are as a person, right?
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  Like my teen years and like my 20s, it was all about like,
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  wanting to fit into either this or that culture, right.
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  Wanting to fit into, like, fit in 100%.
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  Yeah. You know, part of the, the
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  exchange student program was I stayed with, you know, host
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  family and in America and then, you know, they have different
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  kind of programs here and there where I could interact with
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  other exchange students from all over the world.
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  So that was kind of, you know, the, the like sharing culture
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  and learning each other's culture was kind of the main
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  theme of this, this program. And, you know, so I, I was like,
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  I really immersed myself into, you know, in that experience
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  fully and I took great pride in that.
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  That kind of backfired later on because I went too fast.
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  I see. You know what I mean?
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  And a lot of parents struggle with, you know, like kids
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  learning English or maintaining their Korean or learning to be
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  American and fitting into American culture.
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  And I kind, I'm kind of always in between because I know the
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  pros and cons of like fitting in and what that means and how
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  unrealistic that can be. If you don't know who you are
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  and what your identity is or what your child's identity is,
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  There isn't, I feel like a healthy assimilation when it
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  comes to like, if it takes like you kind of throwing away your
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  your home culture by going into a different culture, you know,
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  it's hard. It's very.
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  I feel like it has more cons and pro sometimes.
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  So when you say you went in too fast, what do you mean?
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  In my mind as a 15 year old, that was a way to adjust to a
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  new culture. If you think about it, when you
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  are like surrounded by Koreans and living in Korea as a Korean,
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  like there is nothing that explicitly talks about Korean
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  culture and it's like ingrained in your everyday life.
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  And then and then go coming to a different country, not really
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  knowing like what makes you Korean.
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  I felt like there were definitely a moment I detached
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  myself from my Korean. I have this Korean self, but
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  then it's not it's like no longer in use.
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  I need to relearn everything and I want to be this American.
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  When there is that like big separation.
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  I think that's where the conflict begins.
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  Are on right, So helpful. I think to know about your
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  identity early on, like what makes me Korean, what's hard
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  about being Korean in the US or in my school or however, how do
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  other people kind of deal with their cultures, you know, and
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  things like that, so that even as a really young child, you
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  know, you know, that you're Korean and American and those
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  things can go together. Yeah, right.
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  But then when there's like a total separation, you are 100
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  percent, 100% Korean and home, like at home, and you are like,
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  let's be 100% American at school.
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  That's going to create a lot of, you know, trouble and conflict
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  later. On right, yes, I think most of
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  us went through that process, that conflict.
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  And I see even now a lot of kids, you know, in their
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  developmental stages, maybe elementary enough, deny or
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  detach themselves from Korean culture, right?
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  They don't want to be, they don't have any association with
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  Korean, Korean language, food, anything that kind of makes them
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  stand out of the crowd. And I mean for teenagers, that's
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  like the most horrible thing that could happen to you, right?
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  Standing out in the crowd. Do you feel like that's like
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  healthy and obvious developmental process that kids
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  go through? I think it's.
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  Definitely a phase. But it doesn't mean that the
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  again, the process like identity development process is linear.
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  So they can, you know, we always, we're going to always
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  have this time of, you know, going through that like denying
• 13:58
  one culture completely and then and then move on to the next
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  phase. But then we can come back to
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  that, to that phase. So it's, you know, that's part
• 14:06
  of the definitely a part of the phase because being in this in
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  between space, it's so hard. It's like uncertain, it's so
• 14:14
  ambiguous. You feel like you're alone and
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  it doesn't give people that like sense of comfort.
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  You don't want to be in between. You want to be either this or
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  that. Yes, and that's very clear.
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  It's very healthy and uncertain and.
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  Uncomfortable, very much so. And, and kids feel that way too.
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  Adults definitely feel that way as well.
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  So when it comes to identities, you know that the concept of
• 14:37
  like, Oh yes, you're a Korean American for kids and teens,
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  it's it's so hard. It's hard for adults too.
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  Why do we think that it's so easier for the, the little one,
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  right? And we want to choose one over
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  the other because that's so clear and it gives clarity and
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  you feel confident and you want, it's easier because you can just
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  like work on it. That's what the society wants.
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  That's what the society is used to.
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  And that's about fitting in. So you know, choosing one or one
• 15:07
  over the other makes much, much more sense.
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  And a guest who talked about like, and outside of her school,
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  there's there were two trees, One was called ET One and one
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  was called something else. And I, I didn't get the, the
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  nuance, but she said the ET one tree is for the Korean
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  Americans. Yeah.
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  And there was another tree that was for the fobs.
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  So she said she could not go to the ET one tree because she did
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  not belong there because she was a FOB.
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  Definitely. And and that's a great example
• 15:39
  and like it gives me a clearer image of like what happens.
• 15:43
  People have this delusion that K pop and K culture is changing
• 15:49
  everything and it's impacting everybody in a very, very
• 15:53
  positive way. Great thing that we have that
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  and people nowadays have more exposure to Korean culture and
• 15:59
  they're curious about Korea. But you know, what if your child
• 16:03
  is not interested in music, What if your child is not interested
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  in anime or K pop and you know, things like that?
• 16:10
  Are they forced to them? Like.
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  That and to be part of that, to be part of Korean, like, does it
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  mean that they can really be themselves and be Korean in
• 16:21
  their own way? I don't think so.
• 16:23
  That's very interesting. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:26
  And, and in general, I feel like it's very helpful, yeah, that
• 16:29
  that other people like in the general population has that
• 16:33
  exposure. But we can't like just feel
• 16:36
  like, oh, this is done, you know, identity issues, that's
• 16:40
  all over because of that, you know, because everybody has
• 16:44
  different stories and different interests.
• 16:47
  And that's something that we just really need to pay
• 16:50
  attention to. Interesting.
• 16:51
  That you say that because we think because of this K pop, K
• 16:56
  drama, K food, K whatever, this is all like so much better and
• 17:01
  everybody's aware and like the identity issues much lesser of a
• 17:06
  crisis than it was before. But it may not be true to
• 17:11
  everybody. Yeah, it depends.
• 17:13
  You know, when I first came to the States and I think it was
• 17:16
  soon after, I heard the term identity crisis.
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  I guess first I didn't understand what that meant.
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  And then as a middle schooler, I really didn't like people
• 17:27
  calling the newly immigrants and and say that we have some sort
• 17:31
  of crisis. I don't have any crisis.
• 17:33
  Why do you like refer to us and say you guys have identity
• 17:37
  crisis? What is that?
• 17:40
  What does that mean? Identity crisis I.
• 17:42
  Think it's, it's really part of that identity development
• 17:46
  process when you feel like you're unsure or you're in the
• 17:52
  process of being comfortable in that in between space.
• 17:56
  I think that's like we can call it as identity crisis.
• 17:59
  There's definitely this like clash of what society wants and
• 18:04
  what your home like your parents want and what do you want for
• 18:08
  yourself. So kids can definitely go
• 18:11
  through that experience, but not even able to kind of talk about
• 18:14
  that out loud because they don't have the language to talk about
• 18:18
  identity crisis. It's healthy to have that sort
• 18:21
  of identity crisis because that makes you think about who you
• 18:25
  are as a person and how you can how you've been integrating the
• 18:29
  two cultures that you're in. We don't have that, that
• 18:33
  identity crisis period. It's going to be really hard.
• 18:37
  No about yourself. Yeah.
• 18:39
  You know, I think it would be very, very helpful for people to
• 18:42
  really think about there are all different kinds of cultural kind
• 18:46
  of influences they've had in their life and really kind of
• 18:50
  sit down and talk about like what that means for them and how
• 18:54
  they how those things made them who they are as a person.
• 18:58
  You know, it has like a really strong effect on like your
• 19:01
  parenting style. How does one develop identity
• 19:05
  itself like whatever identity it is?
• 19:08
  I went to Korea this summer and we were my husband and I were so
• 19:13
  amazed by this culture where every everything is so
• 19:17
  efficient. It's not just like people are in
• 19:30
  hurry. And.
• 19:31
  They're very efficient and I kind of have that in me and I
• 19:35
  kind of value that too. Me too.
• 19:38
  Yeah, I when I meet that sort of efficiency in American culture,
• 19:44
  I'm like, like, thank God, you know, like I like you.
• 19:47
  Like, I like that place. That is what I've learned in
• 19:50
  Korea. And that's the value that I
• 19:52
  carry on. You know, I want to talk about.
• 19:55
  That with. My, it's not like I want to make
• 19:57
  them efficient, but that's a great value to have, I think in
• 20:00
  life. So I want to, I want to pass
• 20:02
  that down or I want to introduce that or I want them to kind of
• 20:07
  see that as as part of like. You know, Korean culture, for
• 20:11
  example, So but like without knowing that's part of Korean
• 20:15
  culture and like how that made you who you are, you know, it's
• 20:19
  kind of vague. Like kids wouldn't know.
• 20:22
  I wouldn't know because I've experienced it in Korea living
• 20:26
  there. But then my kids were born here
• 20:28
  and they're not going to be really be able to kind of
• 20:30
  associate that parents who are raising Korean American children
• 20:35
  here really need to be, I think, mindful of like what makes us
• 20:40
  Korean and what sort of values and belief that you like and you
• 20:44
  want to, you know, carry on and pass down to your child.
• 20:50
  I think when it comes to like, OK, let's learn about Korean
• 20:54
  culture or let's, you know, raise our kids to be more
• 20:57
  Korean, we automatically go to this like language, you know,
• 21:01
  yes, OK, how do I start it? Let's teach them Korean, you
• 21:05
  know, and and and that's such a struggle because we have
• 21:11
  different expectations. Their reality is very different,
• 21:15
  right. And then and then I often
• 21:17
  question, you know, myself like is language only cultural thing
• 21:21
  that I can pass. And it's just one of many.
• 21:24
  It's not what they make them Korean.
• 21:28
  I'm fluent in Korean, but does it make me 100% Korean?
• 21:33
  No. And that's what I struggle
• 21:36
  sometimes, right? Because they don't see me in
• 21:40
  Korea as a Korean person. They immediately know that I'm
• 21:45
  from somewhere else. This is by looking at my facial
• 21:48
  expression. And you know how I talk and you
• 21:51
  know how I think? It just shows, right?
• 21:54
  It's not just language. Feel sometimes lost when parents
• 21:59
  just really focus on teaching Korean and think of it as this
• 22:03
  is the way it'll go about raising my kids as Korean.
• 22:07
  My God, that is so good and. I love it.
• 22:11
  It's my current struggle too, because I want my kids to learn
• 22:14
  Korean, yeah, and understand and have a conversation with me and
• 22:19
  Korean and have a great conversation with their
• 22:21
  grandparents in Korean. But like, if they can't, it
• 22:26
  doesn't make them like, less of a Korean.
• 22:28
  I think. So They're Korean in their own
• 22:31
  ways and there are lots of different values and beliefs
• 22:36
  they will carry on as a as a Korean American individual.
• 22:40
  Yeah. And also, you did not fail as a
• 22:44
  parent, Korean American parent, just because your kids can be
• 22:48
  fluent or speak Korean at all. It's not a failure.
• 22:52
  Exactly, exactly. The the like the conflict they
• 22:56
  have with their parents. To the parents, the image of
• 22:59
  being Korean is someone who speaks the language fluently,
• 23:05
  someone who can say in a very Korean way.
• 23:09
  Yeah, right. And then, yeah, yeah.
• 23:11
  They go, there are many, many different things.
• 23:15
  Our children are not really gonna be like that.
• 23:18
  They're not living in Korea. Like if we have this like
• 23:22
  certain image expectation, that's a gap that you're
• 23:25
  creating the gap. Gets bigger and bigger over the
• 23:28
  years and. Related to.
• 23:30
  This this topic actually, go watch the episode with Wong
• 23:34
  Young. We we talked about the language
• 23:36
  development that language is. It's not the only thing.