Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #254 Family Violence Prevention Awareness Month with Jess Hill

Transcript

#254 Family Violence Prevention Awareness Month with Jess Hill · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, it's important to see when women, particularly and kids
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  Speaker 2: are going through coercive control, that this is essentially a
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  Speaker 2: kind to being in a cult.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six
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  Speaker 3: books about raising happy families. I'm not with my wife
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  Speaker 3: and co hosts today Kylie missus Happy Families. And she's
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  Speaker 3: desperately disappointed because this is an interview that we've been
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  Speaker 3: looking forward to having today for just.
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  Speaker 4: So very very long.
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  Speaker 3: This is an interview that is not like our usual interviews.
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  Speaker 3: Normally we're talking about making families happy. This interview is
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  Speaker 3: about families that are dysfunctional in some of the worst ways.
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  Speaker 3: And that's because throughout the month of May it's Domestic
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  Speaker 3: and Family Violence Prevention Month. Domestic and Family Violence Prevention
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  Speaker 3: Month is held every May to raise community awareness and
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  Speaker 3: promote a clear message that domestic and family violence will
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  Speaker 3: not be tolerated in our communities. Last year I read
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  Speaker 3: a book. It's called See What You Made Me Do.
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  Speaker 3: It's by Jess Hill and It's a book about power
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  Speaker 3: control and domestic abuse. That is, the violence and the
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  Speaker 3: controlling that can go on in far too many families,
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  Speaker 3: not just in Australia but all over the world. Before
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  Speaker 3: we begin this interview, I just want to highlight that
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  Speaker 3: the content that we're going to discuss may be very
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  Speaker 3: distressing for some people. While we're going to do our
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  Speaker 3: best to keep it at a level that is safe,
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  Speaker 3: the reality is that conversations about domestic abuse, coercive control
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  Speaker 3: and violence in families can be distressing and disturbing. The
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  Speaker 3: book was one of the most amazing books that I've
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  Speaker 3: read over the last several years. I made a big
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  Speaker 3: deal about it in my End of Year book list
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  Speaker 3: last year. The book is called See What You Made
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  Speaker 3: Me Do, and Jess Hill is the authoress. Thank you
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  Speaker 3: so much for joining me today.
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  Speaker 2: My pleasure justin thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 3: Before we get into all all the stuff that's going
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  Speaker 3: on at the moment in the world when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to domestic abuse, because this is becoming fortunately a topic
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  Speaker 3: that people are willing to talk about more now than ever.
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  Speaker 4: Why have you chosen.
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  Speaker 3: To call the issue domestic abuse rather than domestic violence,
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  Speaker 3: which is what we normally hear in the media.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's based on the work of Yasmin Khan,
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  Speaker 2: particularly who's a community services work upper in Brisbane, works
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  Speaker 2: a lot with subcontinent women from the Subcontinent, and she
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  Speaker 2: really found that she's getting a lot of women coming
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  Speaker 2: into her service who would describe the most horrific campaigns
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  Speaker 2: of control and degradation, and they would say, it's not
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  Speaker 2: really domestic violence because he's never hit me. And so
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  Speaker 2: she wrote this article basically calling for a change in
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  Speaker 2: the language from domestic violence to domestic abuse, because there
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  Speaker 2: are so many people who don't identify with the idea
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  Speaker 2: that they've been subjected to abuse because they've not experienced
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  Speaker 2: physical violence or they've only experienced it sparingly. And so
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  Speaker 2: when I read that, it just felt immediately apparent that
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  Speaker 2: that's what we had to do. And the way that
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  Speaker 2: I kind of explain that is that we have a
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  Speaker 2: term for the abuse of children, which is child abuse,
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  Speaker 2: and inside that term we contain the worst violence, but
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  Speaker 2: also the absence of contact, which is neglect. And I
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  Speaker 2: agree when people say that we don't want to sanitize
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  Speaker 2: the language, and some people I was worried that taking
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  Speaker 2: it from domestic violence to domestic abuse, it's almost feels
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  Speaker 2: like it's sanitizing it. But actually, I think it's more
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  Speaker 2: important to be inclusive of people who haven't experienced much
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  Speaker 2: physical violence than to make the language somehow contain immediately
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  Speaker 2: the threat of it, because I think, you know, domestic
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  Speaker 2: violence doesn't contain what domestic violence actually is either. No
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  Speaker 2: term is really going to contain it, aside from sometimes
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  Speaker 2: like intimate terrorism and others that don't really apply to
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  Speaker 2: every case of domestic abuse. So it's the best catch
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  Speaker 2: all term.
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  Speaker 4: What made you decide to research it?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, a this is not the kind of thing
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  Speaker 3: where you're sitting around on a Friday night with friends saying,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I'm really interested in how people hurt each
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  Speaker 3: other in their families. I think I'm going to go
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  Speaker 3: and write a book. Where where did this idea come
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  Speaker 3: from for you? Because it's just such an extraordinary book
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  Speaker 3: and your heart is clearly in it. But it's not
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  Speaker 3: the kind of thing that people get excited about reading
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  Speaker 3: or writing.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, well that's right, And in fact, there wasn't many
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  Speaker 5: opportunities while I was writing it to bring it up
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  Speaker 5: at any dinner parties I having to.
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  Speaker 4: Go to can't imagine it felt very.
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  Speaker 2: Private as a as a job. I think that I
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  Speaker 2: decided to write this book about it because I was
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  Speaker 2: still excited by it. And when I say excited, what
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  Speaker 2: I mean is that every time I would find something
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  Speaker 2: new out about domestic abuse or about the way our
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  Speaker 2: systems respond to it, it would blow my mind and
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  Speaker 2: it would overturn so many of my own biases and misperceptions.
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  Speaker 3: Could you give me an example of that. Let's be
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  Speaker 3: really concrete about this. What's one thing that you read
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  Speaker 3: and you just went, oh, I never thought of that.
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  Speaker 5: So, for example, I thought for a long time that
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  Speaker 5: mothers who.
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  Speaker 2: Go to the family court would would just you.
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  Speaker 5: Know, probably pretty commonly exaggerate allegations of domestic abuse to
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  Speaker 5: get an advantage in custody cases.
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  Speaker 3: And there's a lot of stories about that, right, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: this comes up all the time, especially on Twitter.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah so, and about forty percent plus of austrains believe
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  Speaker 2: that that they routinely do that. And then it was
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  Speaker 2: the first conversation I had with a protective parent who
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  Speaker 2: was a mother who told me about the fact that
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  Speaker 2: her lawyers had told her not to raise allegations of
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  Speaker 2: domestic abuse because it would probably sway the case against
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  Speaker 2: her and be it in go against her favor, and
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  Speaker 2: that that in fact had happened, and when her own
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  Speaker 2: children had.
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  Speaker 5: Made allegations of sexual abuse, it was reframed to be
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  Speaker 5: a result of her own anxiety projected onto the children,
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  Speaker 5: and that they had made those allegations to somehow please her,
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  Speaker 5: and the custody was switched entirely from their primary care
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  Speaker 5: giver immediately to the father.
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  Speaker 2: I thought that was maybe just a bit of a
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  Speaker 2: one off.
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  Speaker 5: I thought that's a shocking story, But then I started
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  Speaker 5: looking at all the reports over the last twenty years,
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  Speaker 5: and so that is a pattern.
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  Speaker 3: And so it's very very provocative, isn't it to come
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  Speaker 3: out and say this is a this is a pervasive,
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  Speaker 3: systemic issue that mothers, rather than the common narrative in
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  Speaker 3: some corners that mothers are embellishing abuse so that they
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  Speaker 3: can get custody, that they're actually being counseled to stay
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  Speaker 3: away from making those accusations at all because they might
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  Speaker 3: lose custody.
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  Speaker 2: Precisely, and really, for years that was just the standard
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  Speaker 2: legal advice, and still to this day you have lawyers saying, well,
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  Speaker 2: maybe just don't all of those allegations out, you know,
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  Speaker 2: even where there's been convictions, the basic pro contact ethos
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  Speaker 2: of the court is that a child is better off
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  Speaker 2: with both parents, and only in the most exceptional circumstances
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  Speaker 2: should an abusive parent be prohibited from seeing that child,
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  Speaker 2: which is the result is frankly scandalous in terms of
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  Speaker 2: what's happening in this country.
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  Speaker 3: Jess, you decide to write a book about domestic abuse
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  Speaker 3: because you uncover all of these unexpected truths that people
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  Speaker 3: don't usually understand. Just to be really clear, how do
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  Speaker 3: we define domestic abuse, because we're going to talk about
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  Speaker 3: it for the next several minutes, it's probably important that
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  Speaker 3: we're really really clear about what domestic.
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  Speaker 2: Abuse is well, like on the you know, in terms
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  Speaker 2: of our legislation, every state has as variations on how
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  Speaker 2: they describe how they define it, but generally speaking, it's
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  Speaker 2: known to include many different types of abuse, from physical
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  Speaker 2: to financial, spiritual, emotional, psychological, et cetera. We've now also
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  Speaker 2: come to the point where actually having children in an
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  Speaker 2: abusive household is defined as a type of abuse in itself.
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  Speaker 2: That children being exposed and living in that environment is abusive.
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  Speaker 2: So where I think we're going now with a better
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  Speaker 2: and more common understanding of coursive control is understanding that
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  Speaker 2: in some relationships you have violence or psychological abuse, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: But where there's not a significant power imbalance and you
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  Speaker 2: might actually have it coming from both sides, you might
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  Speaker 2: just have it coming from one side, but essentially there's
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  Speaker 2: not a total system in which a power and balance
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  Speaker 2: is very clear. Then you have coercive control, which we
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  Speaker 2: think you know affects about sixty to eighty percent of
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  Speaker 2: women who seek help, could be much higher. There's not
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  Speaker 2: a lot of research on that.
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  Speaker 3: You've raised this idea of coursive control. What is course
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  Speaker 3: control and how does it differ from domestic abuse or
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  Speaker 3: is it a type of domestic abuse?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's some people, some in the domestic valance sector
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  Speaker 2: will say this is the only thing they deal with.
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  Speaker 2: They don't deal with one off incidents or you know,
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  Speaker 2: random patterns of assault. And what course of control is
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  Speaker 2: is essentially a system of entrapment to which various different
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  Speaker 2: techniques are used, including isolation, including intimidation and degradation, micromanagement
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  Speaker 2: of behavior, so setting arbitrary rules and demands and then
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  Speaker 2: punishing the partner for breaking them withholding necessary resources like
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  Speaker 2: money or access to transport, the abuse or threats to
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  Speaker 2: harm children and or pets or themselves as using that
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  Speaker 2: as a threat, humiliation and degradation, gas lighting, and essentially
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  Speaker 2: just creating this overarching environment of confusion, contradicting remarks and
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  Speaker 2: a sense of extreme threat, sense that the person is
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  Speaker 2: constantly having to walk on eggshells because I don't know
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  Speaker 2: when they're going to put a foot wrong next, And
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  Speaker 2: essentially this whole system becomes a system of entrapment, and
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  Speaker 2: the ultimate goal is to reduce the victim to a
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  Speaker 2: state of compliance and dependency.
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  Speaker 3: Jess, I remember as I read your book, I was
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  Speaker 3: overwhelmed several times and found myself laying in bed or
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  Speaker 3: sitting in my car weeping with sadness.
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  Speaker 4: And I'm I'm feeling that again. I just.
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  Speaker 3: I've lost for words in so many ways. What I'd
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  Speaker 3: like to do is take a quick break and come
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  Speaker 3: back in just a sec and ask you. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: we could talk about so much that you've already covered,
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  Speaker 3: but I want to talk about what we can do
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  Speaker 3: to help if we know somebody who's going through this
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  Speaker 3: or what we can do if it's us. So we're
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  Speaker 3: going to take a real quick break and come back
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  Speaker 3: in just a second.
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  Speaker 1: It's their Happy Famili's podcast for.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: A happier family, Try a Happy Families, because a happy
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: family doesn't just happen. Details at happyfamilies dot com dot au.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the typoor
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  Speaker 3: parent who just wants answers now. And we're having a
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: conversation that's really unusual for this podcast. I hope that
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: you're doing okay, because the topic that we're talking about
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: is one that is really hard to consider, especially if
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: you live in a wonderful relationship where these kinds of
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  Speaker 3: things just don't happen. And it may be even harder
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  Speaker 3: to participate in a conversation like this if you're in
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: a relationship where things aren't great and you have felt
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  Speaker 3: scared or threatened or afraid. I'm speaking with Jess Hill.
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  Speaker 3: Jess as the author of See What You Made Me Do,
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  Speaker 3: a book about power control and domestic abuse and a
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  Speaker 3: little every year ago. I read this book and decided
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  Speaker 3: this was one of the best books that I've ever read,
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  Speaker 3: as hard as it was to read it, and that
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  Speaker 3: I just had to talk to Jess on the podcast
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  Speaker 3: because we've got Domestic Violence Prevention Month upon us right now. Jess,
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  Speaker 3: we've been talking about what domestic violence is, what coercive
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  Speaker 3: control is, who is affected by it, and how, And
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  Speaker 3: I know that there's so much more that we could
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  Speaker 3: talk about. In your book, you talk about the way
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  Speaker 3: that police are involved, what's good and what's bad, what
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  Speaker 3: they're doing. You talk about why it's occurring. You know
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  Speaker 3: why men and women do so much damage to their
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  Speaker 3: intimate partners and to their children. You talk about the
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  Speaker 3: impact on women, on men, on the children themselves. And
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  Speaker 3: I mean, there are some things that I've read in
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  Speaker 3: that book that I don't know that I'll ever fully
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  Speaker 3: get over because I was so I was so moved,
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  Speaker 3: and so I felt like I had been injured. I
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  Speaker 3: was so hurt for those children. But I really want
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  Speaker 3: to know what we can do. This is a podcast
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  Speaker 3: about giving people answers. If we know somebody who may
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  Speaker 3: be harmed, who may be in danger, what advice Having
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  Speaker 3: done years of research into this, now, what advice do
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  Speaker 3: you have for somebody who is in a coercively controlling environment,
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  Speaker 3: in an environment where there is violence or some form
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  Speaker 3: of abuse, something that's going on that's just not right
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  Speaker 3: and shouldn't be occurring.
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  Speaker 2: It's one of the hardest things is to support or
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  Speaker 2: try to support someone who is being subjected to this,
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  Speaker 2: and that is because I think it's very important and
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  Speaker 2: this is not all abusive relationships, as I said earlier,
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  Speaker 2: but it's important to see when women, particularly and kids
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  Speaker 2: are going through coercive control that this is essentially akin
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  Speaker 2: to being in a cult. It's a coursive control is
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  Speaker 2: seen in cults, it's used in sex trafficking, it's used
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  Speaker 2: in hostage situations. And what it does is it makes
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  Speaker 2: itself invisible. And what is demanded of the people inside
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  Speaker 2: that system is loyalty to the perpetrator. And it's not
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: just that they demand that loyalty. They do things so
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  Speaker 2: that that person feels like they must be loyal both
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  Speaker 2: to protect themselves and also protect the perpetrator. Now, so
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  Speaker 2: when you're trying to talk to somebody about it, if
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  Speaker 2: you have suspicions about the fact that they may be
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  Speaker 2: being controlled or abused, you can find yourself being rebuffed,
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  Speaker 2: or you can find someone saying no, no, no, no, everything's fine,
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  Speaker 2: Everything's fine. There's no problems here. When you know that
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  Speaker 2: there is a problem, you know that something is going on. Now,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people and I totally understand this, and
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  Speaker 2: I've been in this situation myself, end up backing away
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  Speaker 2: from those friends and family because they just cannot try
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  Speaker 2: to have that conversation again. It's just so depressing, so difficult.
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  Speaker 2: But what they do by doing that is they end
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  Speaker 2: up isolating that person almost on behalf of the perpetrator.
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  Speaker 2: Isolation is the one most enduring thing for abuse. So
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  Speaker 2: if you are isolated and you have nobody.
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  Speaker 5: To reflect back to you what you're going through, no
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  Speaker 5: one to speak to about it, no one to seek
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  Speaker 5: help from, that's when it becomes particularly trapping. So the
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  Speaker 5: best thing that you can do, as someone who sees
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  Speaker 5: someone going through it, or sees someone's kids going through it,
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  Speaker 5: is make it very clear that you are you are
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  Speaker 5: not delivering an ultimatum, but you are open to talk
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  Speaker 5: at any time that you are. We will always be
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  Speaker 5: there if they get to a point where they need
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  Speaker 5: a space of safety, that your phone is always on
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  Speaker 5: and you'll be there for them, and that you know
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  Speaker 5: they can maybe come to your house or that you'll
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  Speaker 5: be a place of refuge for them. If the children
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  Speaker 5: are in danger, or if there's a feeling of immediate risk,
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  Speaker 5: I think sometimes you have to make that really horrific
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  Speaker 5: decision or think about calling police. Sometimes it's out of
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  Speaker 5: your hands, you know. Sometimes the threat is so great
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: and there may be so much resistance on behalf of
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  Speaker 5: the victim survivor, which may be totally relevant, but you.
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  Speaker 2: May have no other choice. And that's a horrible sort
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  Speaker 2: of point to be at. If you're in a coercive
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  Speaker 2: control relationship or an abusive relationship with an abusive partner,
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  Speaker 2: I should say, and you're not sure what to do next,
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  Speaker 2: and if you know that you're what you're going through,
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  Speaker 2: or maybe you've only just twigged having listened to the
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: behaviors described what the best The best first step for
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: people is to develop a safety plan. Now that does
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: not mean that you're necessarily planning to leave. What it
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: means is you need to develop some plan for if
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  Speaker 2: things escalate or how you are going to achieve greater
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  Speaker 2: safety in which whatever way that looks. Maybe it looks
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  Speaker 2: like you're staying in the relationship for now, but do
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  Speaker 2: you confide in one trustworthy person, so that you've got
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: someone to speak to about it. Maybe it does look
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: like leaving and you go, okay, I need to speak
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  Speaker 2: to maybe a domestic violence caseworker, or even just get
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: together copies of your important documents so that if you
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  Speaker 2: have to run out the door, you're not going with
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  Speaker 2: you know, a dollar in your pocket and no access
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  Speaker 2: to your records, so and you have somewhere to go
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  Speaker 2: and you've got a bit of a plan for how
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  Speaker 2: that might happen. Safety planning is the first step I think,
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  Speaker 2: you know, really to creating a space of change, but
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  Speaker 2: talking to people reading the literature if you can, if
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  Speaker 2: it's safe. One victim of course of control actually listened
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: to my book on audiobooks, so she would listen to
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: it in headphones as she'd be doing the washing up
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: because she couldn't have a physical book in the room.
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  Speaker 2: So there are different ways in which you can engage
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  Speaker 2: with this stuff and learn about it. There's you know,
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  Speaker 2: the only way to protect yourself against courcive control is
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  Speaker 2: to understand it and be able to spot it and
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  Speaker 2: to know it for what it looks like and how
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  Speaker 2: it feels and the end, the really important message to
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  Speaker 2: send to victim survivors is you can't fix your partner,
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  Speaker 2: They have to fix themselves. Don't hang in in a
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  Speaker 2: dangerous situation for you or for your kids in the
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  Speaker 2: hope that your partner is going to magically be fixed
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  Speaker 2: or changed just through the power of your love. It
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  Speaker 2: would be beautiful if that was the case. But unless
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  Speaker 2: they are absolutely genuinely engaged in the process of change,
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  Speaker 2: and even if they are, it's not your responsibility to
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  Speaker 2: live in harm to wait for that change to occur.
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  Speaker 3: In summary, if you know somebody, be a safe person
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: for them, Be a trusted and safe person for them
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: to talk to, and hopefully one day they'll rely on
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: you to do something to help them. Call the police
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: if you need to, and if you're in the environment,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: get that safety plan in place and find someone that
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: you can talk to.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: That's what I've heard you say.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: In summary, Yep, that's basically right, Jess.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: The book is called to See What You Made Me Do.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: It's by Jess Hill, Power Control and Domestic Abuse. It's
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: such a hard topic to talk about. I'm so grateful
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: for your generosity and sharing your wisdom and your learning
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: with us today.
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: Thank you for joining us.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you Justin, Well, I think.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I need to go and have a bit of a
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: laydown after that conversation. It's hard to put into words
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: how affected I am by it, and I just so
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: wish that Kylie could have been here. Unfortunately, our our
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: family commitments meant that I couldn't have Kylie with me
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: in this conversation, which is just so sad because it's
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: been such a great conversation. Nevertheless, if you've enjoyed the
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: podcast for what it was, and if you have feedback
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: for us, we welcome that feedback podcasts at happyfamilies dot
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: com dot au. You can also jump onto Apple Podcasts
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: and leave us a rating and review. Those ratings and
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: reviews help other people to find the podcast and make
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: their families happier. We appreciate the work as always of
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Justin Rulan from Bridge Media for producing the podcast, and
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Craig Bruce, our executive producer. For more information about how
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: to make your family happier, please visit happyfamilies dot com
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: dot au.