Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 365. Compressor Inspections and Troubleshooting Stories from the Field

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Episode 365. Compressor Inspections and Troubleshooting Stories from the Field · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: welcome to the Refrigeration Mentor Podcast, and this morning once again, I got my good friend Andrew Freeberg. Morning Coffees with Trevor and Andrew. We're gonna be diving into some technical topics. We're gonna be talking about the community because this is a community meetup. We love sharing, helping level up the technicians in the industry, in the community.
• 0:01
  I'm doing alright Trevor. How you doing? Oh, doing so great, my man. Doing so great. So Andrew, we're gonna dive in. I wanna talk a little bit about some of the stuff that we've talked about and we've seen each other a few weeks ago at a training event down in California, which was awesome. Love getting to meet hang out with Andrew.
• 0:02
  And a lot of stress was on it because I didn't really know what I was doing. We had lots of conversations lately about that Andrew, and we see people in the community starting asking these, questions that I really like to see. A lot of people are like, oh, they'll message me and be like, I don't know if I should ask it.
• 0:03
  Andrew: yeah, we all started at knowing really nothing in this trade and it's all learning and the, and just being aware and picking up from the other texts or So, yeah, we're all start at ground zero, so it's, and now I see it now because I have that same. Spot. I don't want to. Be looked at, like, I don't know what I'm doing, or afraid to ask questions because it's a, a dumb question or potentially could be.
• 0:04
  Trevor: I think that's a big thing. And we see this in the community all the time. Technicians coming in, they're a little iffy about the Supermarket academy, and then they start going through the academy and we're getting messages, both me and Andrew was like, I'm solving problems that my lead technician weren't, wasn't able to solve. And this is what is awesome. We see guys doing it for two, two or a couple years, two or three years, and now they're solving problems harder than the lead tech.
• 0:05
  And it's hard to fit the, that training time in there. But you have to. You gotta figure out a way to do that. And that, that's what refrigeration mentor's all about is helping in that end. Or even just send them to the community to get started. Just to ask the question. And we're gonna talk about some of the techs in the community that are starting to ask more questions, which is really helpful for us because we know we got hundreds and hundreds of people in the community, but we know there's a lot of people that have questions, but they're afraid to ask, and that's okay.
• 0:06
  Andrew: electric? Yeah, it was the fans. I can't remember the brand.
• 0:07
  And they have system, LMP rack there, which was really good. So we got to play around on it for. For quite a few hours we were making some videos, which I love making videos with Andrew because he is very thoughtful on what he's saying and how he articulates what is going on in the system. And this is what, CO2, the CO2 Academy is all about.
• 0:08
  Done much at that store. Yeah, just take, take 10, 20 minutes and just go fully through the rack from the discharge line, just like how we did and went through the entire entire system. And then, and then it just really helps you go through it through any rack really. If you keep doing that, you'll you the first time it's gonna take slow.
• 0:09
  I've done tons of podcasts with him on all their different compressors. Now, Danfoss has purchased 'em, so they're under a Danfoss brand, Bach, and they're moving into North America, which, which is great to see. So if you want to check out some great Bach videos head to, or the YouTube channel, because I have a great tear down.
• 0:10
  How do I get to it when I gotta clean it, because it's potentially gonna plug up someday. But what we're doing here is this is the check valve for the oil. So. It could only build up so much pressure. And then right where he has that screwdriver, that's where is the check valve will, the pressure will overcome that check valve or differential valve, and then it will, it will blow the oil out at that point.
• 0:11
  Trevor: Yeah. Yeah. And so they're built right in. Like if you are used to working on like Copeland, HFC compressors for an example, you would have the pump that would come off, you'd pull the pump off the, the housing where this, these ones are built right in, which is, which is really cool to understand. And once again, you gotta. Get into these compressors and take a look at them. You know what I mean? You pull the stator out 'cause you can pull the stator outta these compressors and replace them if you need to.
• 0:12
  Andrew: Yeah, taking the stator out was so cool. I never done that on a compressor. 'cause like you said, once they go bad you just swap it out a new one. So I thought that was pretty cool to, to experience. Do you know? We literally sat there and we tore this whole thing apart to see how it was all taken out.
• 0:13
  So that I thought that was unique versus, a Copeland. So I, they, I don't know. They were saying that they're gonna probably change that design. When I talked to David. It is Michael. This guy's name Michael. Dang it. Yeah. Michael. That's right. Michael. Yeah. I talked to Michael and he said that they are gonna change it, like how the Copeland is.
• 0:14
  Like you're saying, taking apart, like most manufacturers, you can't, you're not able to pull out the stator because you gotta heat up the, you gotta heat up the casting. And so when you heat up the casting, then you can drop out the stators where they do it a little, little bit differently on the, the box.
• 0:15
  Andrew: No. It's, it's honestly one of the checks, if you got some compressor failures or. Problems, oil problems.
• 0:16
  Trevor: Yeah. Yeah. So you definitely need to get the torque specs. If you're pulling this off, you gotta have the gaskets and stuff, and you really need to know what, what to do. I really, I'm, I'm enjoying seeing people in the community start to work on, like actually replace parts on compressors more and more.
• 0:17
  So then, they're looking at the, the. Value versus a valid plate versus a whole, whole compressor. But when you really understand how to troubleshoot it eight, nine times outta 10 is better just to replace the part than the whole compressor. Now, if the compressor's 20 years old you're, you're gonna wanna replace it 15 years old if it's been beat up for last 15 years and it lasts that long.
• 0:18
  But then the question becomes. What happened. Right. And that's where we gotta go in dive deeper, because if it did it once, most likely it's gonna happen again. So that's why that's why we we dig into it deeper and figure out exactly what's going on there. Yeah. Yeah. So, but need needless to say options, I just give the customer options and I don't give 'em a hundred percent either, 'cause I'm not gonna sit there and say, you're 10. 5-year-old compressor, there's not internal damage. When you have a valve plate that's busted, just say, well, everything looks good. Where as far as the tear down goes, and the, my opinion, the, we could get away with just the valve plate, it's gonna cost X amount versus a new compressor, which will have a one to five year, depending on what they choose warranty on that compressor.
• 0:19
  They can have a two or you can get a two or three year warranty on those compressors if you do a proper startup procedures. Most, most Manufac and Copeland, I don't know about their CO2 once again, but most of the time, like on the first failure, they used to not even inspect them. They just, they would send out a new one.
• 0:20
  So there's different ranges on the way to com the manufacturer. So you should find this information out. You know what I mean from the different wholesalers as well. 'cause this helps your customer, right? If you can get a two or three year warranty versus just a one year warranty. And it is something that was caused by, say for the manufacturer on that their end that's gonna, help that customer out.
• 0:21
  Trevor: Stay curious. That's awesome. Yeah, no, I love it. So this is a post that Andrew put in the community too, on from a CO2 system. There's a lot of things that I, I'd love to talk about here, but right off the bat, what do you guys see? What do you see? Because if CO2 and you work on CO2, what is one of the things that you can you notice right away?
• 0:22
  This is the whole purpose of coming to refrigeration with their training so I can teach you so they can teach other people so we can make the industry better. And there was one where that drop leg sensor, they showed it. It was inside the mechanical room, 30 to 40 feet away, like, 10 meters from the gas cooler just before the high pressure valve, upstream of the high pressure valve.
• 0:23
  I will be posting this today, so I'm super excited to get this one done. But yeah, that sensor, that Trevor just kind circled in blue. Yeah, that's, it was, it was. It's just not enough. It's just not enough. So I actually went and went all the way out, out of the gas cooler there on both sides.
• 0:24
  Trevor: pump, I'm pumped up too, and I wanna see that we will, we're gonna look at the graphs afterwards, and kind of check out the difference. What I see in so many, like all the trainings that all the technicians sending pictures in. I see. This is what I would see right here. I would see this insulated. That's it. You'll have that three or six inches over that. That's the only, and Baird, like all this is Baird.
• 0:25
  Wouldn't, is there any efficiency losses there? And I don't kn, I don't know the exact answer. I don't get the data to to back it up, but I know for sure or I, I believe, sorry, I shouldn't say, I know for sure. I believe this is insulated. Way better. It's gonna read better and your high pressure valve is gonna run better.
• 0:26
  One of their engineers is on a super smart dude. And because I was doing a, a carne, some carne training on some of their racks, and one of the things is I showed them a video of one of their systems and there's like, oh man. 'Cause I didn't have all their documents. I've seen some of their documents, but one of their documents that they send out to all the sites.
• 0:27
  And he, in, in their, in their instruction, it says they want to see at least 48 inches of insulation. So if you have to put it this far, they want to see it from the gas cooler all the way past that sensor. Kinda like you're doing, 12 inches past. So they'd like to see that, about that four feet, that one, one and a half meters of insulation.
• 0:28
  Which I, I think most manufacturers, that's what they want. There are other manufacturers. I know my, my friend Paul Burnett from Hill Phoenix, he's been on the podcast many times. He likes to see the sensor as close as possible to the pre-cool side. That's where, so on on the whatever side is the pre-cool.
• 0:29
  Andrew: Yeah, I, I'm, I always, always have said, go with the manufacturer recommendation. They have tested it, they have tested it, and they have tested it. And any, the, the extreme conditions and stuff too. So I highly recommend doing that. And then it, if it's still causing problems, which, sometimes it does definitely go with your experience or your gut and test it out.
• 0:30
  You need a mechanical engineer on site full-time, so all these different things. So they're trying to get lower charges. And CO2 is like a really great option for maybe a combination ammonia, CO2 system, or CO2 pump. So there's different options out there for CO2, which is, which is really cool.
• 0:31
  So, I pulled one of the cases that was having an issue and that's the first thing I see. Never seen that before, unless there's a big restriction. Right. But yeah, that is your liquid line right there, which was, that's crazy. Crazy. Yeah.
• 0:32
  Andrew: from the flash tank. This is a CO2 unit, so, so no, but really there kind of is because that high pressure valve, does that, but yeah. No, this is, it was super crazy, but needless to say I did throw a graph on there too.
• 0:33
  Anyways, started checking it out. I ended up shutting the ball valve off for the flash gas bypass valve. And pressure didn't rise. I was like, what in the world is going on? So then I decided to pull the cover off the float, and then I realized we were that low. Uncharged, and that's what was causing that frost.
• 0:34
  But this is not the case. Well, I guess it's a, a type of restriction. There's no, there's no refrigerant. So the restriction, yeah, no, no refrigerant. And you said that when you went and looked at the flash gas bypass valve, it said 0%. Is that right? And you just thought it was zero, but you thought it was open, but it was just reading incorrectly.
• 0:35
  The, and, and he, he is taken a lot of training for, and he consistently do it and he trains it. Now the big thing is, is that looking at those graphs, like he did, he went and looked at the graphs, like, what's going on? Why is this 0% probably looked at the high pressure valve. He did send the, the graphs and we'll, we'll, we'll.
• 0:36
  Andrew: it. I did. Yeah. No, no. Frost now on that liquid line. Yeah. I think there's a frost right where the that is a pulse valve sitting right there in the corner. Yeah. I, I think there's frost from that point into the evaporator. But yeah, I did. I did end up posting that. I guess I wish I would've explained what was happening here because the, the, it just because it's so crazy to me.
• 0:37
  So that's gonna control help control the fans and give the fans a better idea of what is going on with that gas cooler. So you do need that, that a sensor there as well. Eric, I would love to ask you, do you have an ambient sensor and then on the outside as well, so you have the actual ambient and then one between the pad and the coil as well, so two different ambient sensors, or do you just use that one?
• 0:38
  So use a. What is called, it's called a a type lamp. And, and not, and not a plastics cable binder because that area will be hot and cold and eventually, eventually plastic breaks. So, okay. So then, yeah, all the insulation, everything
• 0:39
  Just, just wanna measure whatever pipe, how hot the pipe is. Do we measure the gas temperature? Do we measure the liquid temperature or do we wanna make sure that we do not measure the oil temperature? 'cause there will be a lot of oil in this system and they old, we can't, the old temperature, we don't care about the oil temperature.
• 0:40
  So it goes into a building. Why wouldn't we insulate it that the hallway. And why? Why do manufacturers not say that anywhere? So is there a reason for that?
• 0:41
  And then in that mechanical room, you're always running at 25 Celsius or 75. 75 fer. Yeah.
• 0:42
  Then, then the temperature in your receiver is about four degrees C or. I can't do that. In, in, it's it's five 30. Yeah. Yeah. It's
• 0:43
  Trevor: Yeah, and I love that. This is what I talk about in the training programs and I'm not talking to them about, like, this is all exposed and they're like, well, sub cooling is good 'cause we sub cooling is good.
• 0:44
  Erik: that's, it's a whole chain of events here you need to keep track on and the rule of thumb not to take much more of your time. Rule thumb, just keep your, your droplet temperature a handful of degrees hotter than your receiver. I like, so five se five, seven degrees hotter than than your receiver.
• 0:45
  It drops so low that you're not a high enough differential over the. The sump or that suction of that compressor. Now we can't move that oil from that, and then you get an oil issue. So I just love learning this stuff. I just love learning this stuff. Thank you, Eric, so much for sharing that. Oh, you're welcome, Andrew, my man.
• 0:46
  And this is what the community's all about, sharing, learning, growing. So if you're interested, go to refrigeration mentor.com/hub and and join the community. These are experts from all around the world who are willing to share their knowledge with you, and I know for sure.
• 0:47
  If you guys ever looked at a kind of, this is how it reminds me of, but if you guys ever went to worked on an ice machine cber. That's kind of like the same thing. It distributes the water, the water falls onto those pads, and then as the air goes across it, it evaporates, it cools the air, and then it actually hits the condenser.
• 0:48
  Andrew: Yeah. So I was like, well, that's kind of strange. In this instance, this whole thing was, I was here because they had a whole rack down. I got here, someone had the condenser turned off up on the roof here. And then when I got up here, this is what I saw. I'm like, what in the world that's open? That sensor, so it's just like, well, that's interesting. So then, yeah, so then I, I button it all up and then I'm making that sensor better. Like I said, I'll have a, I'll have a photo in the community there, so you could see the after. But yeah.
• 0:49
  This has been huge. Learned a ton. Eric, thank you so much for taking the time. Steven, thanks for, for showing up and everybody else chiming in. I really appreciate that. And this is what we do. We're helping industry out. So if you're listening out there on the podcast and you're interested in getting in to a community that cares for refrigeration professionals@therefrigerationmentor.com slash hub and all, and all, all of these, just try to level yourself up, learn a little bit every day.