Latest / Cultivator Podcast / Episode 5 - Cultivator Interview - Brave Cities
Transcript
- Justin Stice: Yeah. Hey, what's up? Welcome to the Cultivator Podcast. So glad that you guys are tuning in today. ⁓ man, I'm excited about today. I just want to kind of give us a preface and heads up, but last year we had some of our friends come into town and we got to do this really cool kind of conversation. ⁓ Hugh Halter and Taylor McCall and then Lance Ford. So Hugh and Taylor were talking about ⁓ Brave City stuff. ⁓ Lance was talking about leadership, kind of all the stuff that he talks about. And so, man, it was so cool to have those guys here in town with us. ⁓ some of my heroes, my friends. ⁓ just dudes that are just doing incredible work ⁓ around around the country. But I'm excited today. We recorded a conversation with them. And so today for the cultivator podcast, we're gonna show you guys that conversation. So me and Dave got to sit down with them, ask some questions. ⁓ man, we're talking the kingdom, we're talking discipleship, we're talking cultivator stuff. And so I'm excited for you guys to get to finally it's We've been sitting on this for a while. ⁓ finally be able to listen to this great conversation that we had with our friends Hugh Halter, Taylor McCall, and Lance Ford. Hope you guys enjoy. Man, I am excited today. We have some legends ⁓ in the house ⁓ with us. And so we have ⁓ Hugh Halter, Taylor McCall, and Lance Ford. ⁓ and so man, we have been so excited and thankful that they're here in Lubbock ⁓ doing some cool stuff with us. But man, I just wanted to talk to you guys about this idea of Being a kingdom cultivator and kind of what you guys would say in that idea of being a kingdom cultivator, what are the key things that that you think that takes? Like somebody needs to be that, like to actually be intentional about that. And then what it like even beyond that, what does it look like to sustain that as a life? Like it's not just this one thing I do every once in a while, but it's like the way that I live my life through that. So cool hats. I would say is Yes. You gotta have cool hats. You gotta have a good good hat. ⁓ Legends wear hats. You guys are legends. Or guys without hair wear hats. You go first, Lance. Yeah, well I th I I think it all starts with the kingdom. I think it all starts with understanding you're a citizen of the kingdom, which I think is the biggest thing that's missing within Christianity today because we've we've adopted this whole ideology. That this ⁓ you know, what some theologians would call a soterian gospel, which it's all about what happens to you after you die rather than happens to you as Dallas Willard would say, while you're still alive, right? So it's entering in the kingdom right here, right now, which brings a total different ethos, it brings a different ethic, it brings a different economy. So it makes you if you really become a citizen of the kingdom of heaven, then you look at your money. Different. You look at others different. You look at your stuff different. It's not my stuff. I really am a steward. And this that was Jesus' idea. That's what will change the world if we'd ever just really believe him and follow him. You know, the the the the disciples, the original disciples, that they didn't accept him as their Lord and Savior. They accepted him as their teacher. Yeah. You know, first and foremost. He was their rabbi. He was their teacher. And But that's just a total add-on. You know, that's just a ⁓ an that's an optional deal. You check the box. ⁓ I want to get the undercoating and the leather and ⁓ I'll take I'll be a disciple too. So it's that's not the way that the that the New Testament is written with the I that ideology. So I think that we've just come to a place where we just kind of sprinkle a little Jesus on the American dream and go about our business and And that's why we've got bigger and more churches than ever, but we've actually got le we're in trending decline. We all know that. That's that's not a news flash. ⁓ but it it really is about the kingdom. So it's about being a citizen. You're fiery today. Huh. I also like the way you got your little book title that you wedged in your little talk right there, a little right here, right now. ⁓ well yeah, that's that's ⁓ But that is but that is what that is what Dallas said. This ⁓ Jesus teaching the disciples to pray. Pray this way, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, right here, right now. Yeah. As isn't so ⁓ a nuance that came out today in this little talk. ⁓ Taylor was reminding folks that we don't build the kingdom. Yeah. Yeah. We've all said it. I still say it, it's just part and parcel, but I think some of the nuances are really important when you realize the kingdom is already here, right? Sometimes if we think that we're gonna build it, we get into ourselves. We put our brand of our church or our organization on the water bottles that we give out to we also judge ourselves how we do and we compare ourselves. ⁓ we sometimes try to conquer and win and beat people. So I think it's helpful to just go we don't grow it. ⁓ I think, you know Cultivate I think is probably a pretty decent word. We we can ⁓ we can oversee, we can uncover it for people, we can live it so that they kind of begin to taste it and touch it and be curious about it, but we certainly don't impose it on people and ⁓ we try not to shut anybody out of it. But so yeah, I That might just be an important thing to Yeah, maybe another idea is to continue to deconstruct from this ⁓ this really age old lie that there is some things that are sacred and some things that are secular. Yeah. I guess understanding that like kingdom is sacred and everything that it touches is sacred. And let's say that secular is not a word we even consider anymore, but more it's just perversion or taintedness or a cloudiness. The kingdom clears that up. It's a filter for the water. And so if you really want to be an inspiring ⁓ innovative, liberated kingdom cultivator, you have to put on a new set of glasses to see that all things are good. All things that God created are good and sacred and the kingdom can come and and sort of ⁓ incarnate in in all of those spaces, all of those activities, all of those neighborhoods. And then you just get to cultivate. Yeah. So there maybe there's not even, and there of course there is, but just for this idea, maybe there's not even kingdom cultivation. It's just saying, what what did you say, Lance? Realizing that we are citizens of the kingdom now cultivate freely. We always say sin does not make you bad, it makes you bound. So to not want to sin is not The opposite of that is not saying I want to do good. That's a misnomer and a a misunderstanding of what sin is. The scripture says sin is a rope wrapped around our ankles so we can't run freely. It easily entangles us from running the race. It's like we're trying to sprint in mud. And so when you realize that you're a citizen of the kingdom, you go, I don't really want. that rope around me anymore. I want to cultivate with passion and with with liberty. ⁓ that's why I mean again, I think all the teachings of Jesus were not to correct us, but to liberate us, to say, run free, man. Go cultivate. Yeah, I always say that, man, we have ⁓ fr freedom from sin, not freedom to sin. So I think when we diminished the work of Jesus and the cross and the the resurrection We don't realize that like we actually have a new identity. And it's I think this going this idea of this there's a new identity of the kingdom citizen that we have to begin to realize. And I always love like when Jesus he says, Repent, right? The first thing he says, Repent and believe the king change the way you're thinking, have metanoia, like renew your whole thought process. Then you're able to begin to think like ⁓ this is a begin to think in a kingdom way. Yeah. Yeah. And that repent, you know, if I mean like I grew up in the day of revivalist preachers and And tent meetings and summer revivals where they they would they really, you know, no really not trying to be funny here, but they would try to scare the hell out of you. That really was the message. Repent, you know, and screw repent. And I don't believe that was the tone of Jesus. I think he said it with a smile on his face. Repent is not a warning, it's an invitation. Yeah. It's not a warning about hell, it's invitation into heaven. It's right there if you'll turn around like Yeah, maybe Metanoia, turn your thinking, change your thinking, and you'll run straight into it. Maybe the greatest picture of repentance in the scripture is the prodigal son running home. So it's the father running to him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not like he it wasn't even the idea wasn't that he wanted to stop what he was doing. The idea was I want to go home. Yeah. I just want to run back to where it's better with my dad. It's better at my dad's house. So it was a little bit Inevitably he stopped what he was doing. But that w actually wasn't the point of repentance. The point of repentance was come back home. Yeah. Well, you know, C.S. Lewis said that that there will no there that there won't be anyone in hell that wants to be in the presence of God. The door locked from the inside. That's it. And I mean, they not that they like hell, but that doesn't mean they want to be with God. And so I think that that's that's kind of like the prodigal there of like I want to be with my father. I want to be in my father's presence. Hmm. That's good. So for you guys, ⁓ man, you guys have been doing this a while. Like this kind of this this way of just living life, ⁓ of cultivating the kingdom, of just living this thing out. It's beyond it's gone beyond ministry, church world stuff to like this is just this is who we are and this is how we live. ⁓ W what's been the things that have sustained you in this way of life? I was talking today with your group about picking up bread on the trail. Like for me the outside of just the relationship with God, the coolest thing to me every day is to think that he has things that he's inviting me to join him in. So, you know, when you go into a city that has a lot of need, ⁓ I've never felt like I could just walk in and figure it out. I just I'm not generally a creative person, so You know, the desperate prayer is always like, God, just show me what you're doing and and I'll I'll go to work and that's the way everything's kinda revealed itself. So the the cultivating life, it's not you're not pre thinking everything. You're really signing in for duty every morning. Yeah. And I assume God's gonna initiate, God's gonna reveal, He's gonna go, Hey, this is what I think what we're gonna be up to for the next couple of years. So, you know, in our story a building was given to us that I wasn't looking for. So That you know, that forces that eight year journey of like that's what that's gonna be. We're now at the beginning of another big chunk of breads on the trail. So we're like going, okay. That probably will be another eight year. You know, I mean, I wanna hear about this. Like y'all mentioned a little bit today and kinda hanging out and like I would love to hear whenever the time comes to hear about this. I think we should do it right now 'cause it again, ⁓ like ⁓ we had just finished ⁓ brewery pizza joint at yeah our in our ecosystem. And I literally told Cheryl, this is my last one. And then I'm I'm gonna roll, you know, let these young and but Taylor was he had already kind of seen a big piece of bread on the trail. He was not bothering me with it while I was working on the pizza, but ⁓ pretty much the same day that we finished or opened the pizza, this new thing landed. Like it literally was the same day. You should tell him that story. Well, I mean, it's there's so much ⁓ kind of a Ethereal thought in this that might not connect with a lot of people. But we we kind of practice through the stream of Luke 10 when Jesus sent out the 70 plus. And that story, I think, is more ancient than a lot of people realize. So I'm not going to get into it because it it would take too much time. But that when he When he sent out those kind of quote unquote first missionaries or whatever, he was he was telling an ancient story of when ⁓ humanity was was divided into boundaries. It it hearkened all the way back to Babel. It Deuteronomy, I think, thirty two talks about us being divided into boundaries where authorities and principalities were given authority over these boundaries. This was a really unique moment. Is my point. And the only reason I bring it up is not to try to sound smart, but to say he was he was giving us a secret into binding something on earth that would be bound in the kingdom. And our most of our core ⁓ kingdom cultivators in Alton have recognized, even people outside of Alton have recognized that there's a unique and specific approach. oppressive spirit over young people and over families, but particularly young people. And it even kind of has a name. We won't go there today, but there is there is authority that powers have been given. We if you're a follower of Jesus, you know that's true. The principalities and powers are talked about. And he doesn't say demons. And that's kind of important because we just interchange the two. But Paul doesn't. So this is more ancient than even what we know of demons. I and the only again, the only reason I'm pointing those little things out is to say that was the bread on the trail was God was saying, through this idea of subtle subversion, we talk about this in our book, Brave Cities. Jesus preached about it in the Sermon on the Mount. If you ever want to learn more about subtle subversion, go read some Walter Wink and let him blow your mind. But we wanted to subvert this power of oppression over young people and families and God just kind of started to stir this vision of a place where families could come and find life. They could eat together, they could drink together, they could play together, they could ⁓ train in athletics or fitness, they could ⁓ watch movies, hear live music, and and this this vision is now an actual public. ⁓ you know, work that we are ⁓ cultivating in our city called the park at Alton. And it's gonna embody all of those things. It's about a three to four acre spot right in the heart of downtown Alton, ⁓ where we have purchased ⁓ close to 20,000 square feet of three separate ⁓ parcels that are on this on or three separate buildings that are on this one large parcel and ⁓ and over the next I think maybe four years, Hugh thinks around twenty, we will be we will be working on this. Yeah. So ⁓ this is this is our effort to I guess maybe not break the back of this oppressive spirit, but at least cast a major blow. And ⁓ Yeah, I think I just want to end with this and like to respond to your question, I think what I I relate to Peter so much. ⁓ if you could if you can imagine as like a a storyteller of Jesus, the moment when he fed the five thousand or however many it was. And wasn't that the moment where he said, Eat my flesh and drink my blood? Wasn't it in that story? I'm pretty sure it was. Yeah, right after that. Let's say it was. Fact check me, but I'm pretty sure it was. And I like that moment because I don't think the people that left are like going to hell and judgment is on them. But I think what happened is they realized this isn't what I thought it was. I'm not down with this. Yeah. And he didn't really say anything. He just let ⁓ go. He didn't speak shame over ⁓ He didn't like cast judgment really. It's just like, yeah. I knew y'all didn't want this. But then he turns to his disciples and he says, are y'all gonna leave too? Which feels like a vulnerable question. And I so you say what keeps you or something like that? What sustains you in this? And it's that. I look at Jesus and I go, where else would I go? Exactly. I about once a week, either Hugh says to me or I say to him, I'm done, I'm moving to the beach. And I'll say, why don't you then? Like I dare you. And his response is always the same. I can't. What would I do? What else could I do but follow this man that has captivated us? That's really like the core of it for me is I try to think of a way out, bro. Yeah. I really go. All right, look, if I okay, if I sell off my Bitcoin and if I can leverage some of my con you know, like my House flipping skills, and if I get my sons to work for free, we could move and just live a good, easy life. Which is what I think happened at that moment when the 5,000 left. And I just go, I I don't even know anything else to do but follow him. He's he has become my obsession. So that's what sustains me. A little bit of a curveball, a little bit of different question. It's I always hesitate to talk to authors and say what I got out of your book, and then y'all later are gonna be like, I don't know where you got that. I don't that's not in there anyway. ⁓ but one of the things that I got in reading Brave Cities, one of the and this probably confirmation bias, something I was thinking anyway, is I think one of the primary pathways to discipleship is through business because There's just a rawness to that. There is a financial piece to that. There is a my butt's on the line here kind of thing. I can't be phony about it because this is real life stuff as opposed to coffee in a coffee shop, you know, what w what would you do that you weren't supposed to do thing? ⁓ so could you guys just talk about how that looks in the in the business world as opposed to kind of how it typically is in the church? What What have you found as far as discipling people in the then the business world is a we got first you gotta define discipleship. I think that's the initial Because it's just a a term that everybody throws around as if me sitting in Starbucks and memorizing a verse in Matthew is our discipleship meeting. So why don't you do that first? Yeah, I mean that's it's what use word in the conference world or less. And we actually even go so far as to say, hey, we just make disciples and make disciples and make disciples as if it's a quick and ⁓ and yeah, you can actually replicate lots of Bible studies pretty fast. But you know, from what we all know, it's always been a life on life thing. And there's nothing that's more testing than in your work and in your family. So when you have a lot of employees and you're dealing with money and who's gonna get it and are you gonna take less ⁓ so that you can build this or see this ecosystem grow? you know, you you deal like nothing is hidden in that discipleship world. So we don't even like to use the word discipleship honestly, 'cause it's just such a it's like saying the word church. It just means so many different things. ⁓ We would talk in in the term of apprenticeship or development or spiritual formation and it's all I mean, it just all comes to light in the business realm, in the neighborhood. I mean I've done ⁓ Lance probably you've seen it too. It's it's thousands of hours of Bible studies and sometimes no change at all for twenty guys. So I'm like very low low R Yeah. Mm-hmm. A lot of times. I mean, anybody can hide anywhere, you know. anybody can become a chameleon, but it's really hard in day to day business work, hanging drywall, serving coffee, ⁓ working in a hospital room. Dealing with butt heads, like you everything, it's all there. We had a we had a situation the day the day before I was flying here. where one of our homeless brothers comes into our our ⁓ restaurant and you know everyone knows every ⁓ one of our friends living on the street knows they're welcome there. But he came in kind of tweaking and started causing a little trouble and then he threatened one of our female baristas who ⁓ is just you know the greatest, kindest, sweetest hearted young lady and the way that David, who kind of oversees this table, responded to him was probably made more disciples in that ten to fifteen minute period than I did in two years of memorizing the book of James with a group of men because everyone watched him and how he sternly kicked this sucker out for the next month. Yeah. He's banned from our from our spot for a month, which is a common punishment. But then he walked out with him and sat on the curb with him. Yeah. And he he's like, I'm not leaving you. But ⁓ but you're not welcome here right now. And there's we could tell a thousand more stories of Hugh cleaning up some dude's poop in the in the restroom and ⁓ you know, ⁓ my wife ⁓ sitting with Miss Lori for hours while she just Talks in circles about all the pain in her life and people watching them, our workers who don't have a faith, ⁓ share our faith in Jesus, watching her and going, or an older gentleman in our city who ⁓ lives a bit of a an alternative lifestyle and has always only been hurt and shamed and ⁓ pushed out by the church. Constantly comes in to some of our places of business just to sit and talk and share life and hear stories and say, ⁓ I I don't I don't know about the church, I don't know about Jesus, but I know whatever this this thing is y'all are talking about, I wanna be around more. And there's more to that story. My point is, is if that's what discipleship is, if and if that's what evangelism is, I'm like, ⁓ I actually want to do that again. Yeah. But I think this whole thing takes this picture be because we've tried to separate out life in church, right? And the kingdom doesn't do that. Like it the kingdom is every all of it. And so this I love this because it this begins to paint the picture of a kingdom cultivator and and that what that looks like a disciple is man, you're just doing life with people and they're getting to pick up you being like Jesus in that situation. I forgot Dallas Willard's definition about a disciple is like whoever Being j whoever you are as Jesus would be you, something like that. But but the idea is that like man, you're just being who Jesus is in that in those situations and then that begins to rub off on people. Yeah. And they begin to see that. And the the more proximity, the closer they are to you, the more they begin to see that. And how you deal with situations, circumstances, and all those things. Well and I I'll I I'll say one other thing. I just I think ⁓ fair maybe we come up with it today. But I think like a fair start to a definition of discipleship is first you have to have kingdom life. Yeah. So without that, without a kingdom economy, to me, you're inviting people into a figment of your imagination. So first you have that. Second you invite others into it. Because Jesus said, What's the great commission or whatever? Go and make disciples teaching them all the things that I taught. Well, all the things that he taught are summed up in one word, kingdom. So you and I'm it's to get technical here, I think, and that was a faux pas on your part, because I know you know this. Faux pas. A little faux pas. ⁓ t it wasn't teaching them all the things I taught. See, that's the problem. He's teaching them to obey the things I taught. And I think that that's one of the big problems right now. People think if they get preached at, you know, every week, get a little more information, they're just gonna make them more like Jesus and make them a disciple. No, not unless you obey that. And the key to being a disciple, Jesus said, You can't be my disciple unless you pick up your cross. Not his cross, your cross. And so we've embraced the cross of Calvary, but we don't like the cross that's assigned to us. Yeah. And he says you have to do it every day. And we have been taught a gospel that doesn't include all that stuff. You know. That's good. Mm-hmm. That's good. There's your faux pas. Well, and I think there's also, you know, one of the things as a business owner, there is a mutuality to discipleship that we miss. Like If I'm hanging out with Hugh, my hope is that he becomes more like Jesus as he's discipling me 'cause I'm discipling him. Right. And I you know, I think one of the things that I've found in business is if especially entrepreneur, there are a lot of things I didn't know. And my options are to either fail at it or go to find somebody who has been through that and ask questions. And so I think that the business world of that leads to that. If I mean, 'cause I can sit here and screw this up time and time again, or I can go to somebody who's been where I've been and ask ⁓ questions. And so there is that mutuality. I'm learning from you, but you know, I'm also Yeah, not many people disciple me more than my eight-year-old daughter. Especially in her faith and her belief that God is listening to her. So yeah, I I that's a weird thing too, that somewhere along the way we we decided that I'm the discipler, you're the disciplee, and you need to Just follow me. ⁓ I know we we take certain verses out of context to to kind of proof text that, but you're right, man. It is very mutual. Everybody is being discipled right now. Everybody. Yep. It's ⁓ what was something what was that one crazy looking dude that's like a rock star dude, but he said, If if y'all don't disciple your kids, I will. So everybody's learning from somebody, everybody's trying to figure out what they want to be based on some other story they see. So, you know, to me, a discipling environment in a business, like in in anywhere that's real life, but it can also be around a dining room table with your family talking yeah about a passage of scripture. But it's probably because something happened that day and now we're talking about it. So ⁓ yeah. I I I think that that and especially in business zone and businesses you guys that do, ⁓ you have such an opportunity. You know, we've I I guess there's a few labels we've called it over the last few years. We call it pre conversion discipleship. People start getting getting discipled or enter into a process of becoming a disciple before they even know it a lot of times. Yeah. mean th th the the twelve, those guys weren't converted while Jesus was disciplined them. You know, for you know, three and a half years. They they were being discipled. And ⁓ I I've definitely seen in context where we've lived in the past and practiced, you know, a real missional stewardship over our neighborhood that we had neighbors that were very hostile to, you know, the gospel and And to Christians in the very beginning, but as we started just, you know, genuinely loving them and demonstrating what the kingdom looked like, they started getting discipled without even knowing it. I I'd take that even further, bro. I would I would say that people are making disciples before they believe in Jesus. Mm. I really think so. I mean, think about again, Luke ten, he sends out all these people. There's no way all of them were Faithful dialed in believers of Jesus. I I think the the beauty of that idea is that we all carry this sacred image of of the Trinity and we we can ca we can carry that that amazement of the kingdom before we even fully buy into it ourselves, if we ever fully buy into it. ⁓ goes in this idea of discipline, making our it's our job is to make aware what people are carrying. Like they don't most people don't realize even the weight of what's going on in the the image that they have. And so I think it's our job to reveal that, which is I think revealing the kingdom within someone. Yeah. Is to reveal man, you're you're walking in this image that you don't even know. It's there. It's there. Yeah. It's just ⁓ it's kind of like this an awakening to what's there. Yeah. ⁓ And that's that's as much salvation as anything. Yeah. Rather than just thinking, you know, you were saved and now you're now you're brand new. I'm okay with that. Like I I'm not here to argue that idea. But but there's also an element to it of this beauty that was in you. We see it all the time in really young people. And in two, three, four year old daughters, we see this pure image of Christ and how they love and how they they embrace and how they ⁓ like how they long for their ⁓ their parent, whatever it is, we see the beauty of Jesus and and then they're told and they begin to forget that. And that I I think salvation Part of it is reminding them, hey, the the image of God is in you. Let it awaken again. Yeah. And then we gotta remind them again and again. And I feel like next week I'm gonna have to be saved again. And it's not it's not the old evangelical idea of like losing your salvation. It's forgetting. Yeah. I forgot that I bear the image of Christ. And I I think you're to ⁓ this idea of transformation comes through remembering. Right. So the more that we remember identity, the more then that continues to transform us. Yeah. If we can t can continue to remember that true identity. Ma'am, you guys have been incredible. ⁓ thank you guys ⁓ for just hanging out and having a little time with you guys and and chatting a little bit. ⁓ hopefully we can do some more chatting and more hanging out. But I I just I really appreciate you guys coming on, hanging out, talking and ⁓ we'll see all the things.