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What's Up With The Southern Baptist Church? · Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: And here we go into the third and final hour
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  Speaker 1: at least for today of the Morning Show with Preston,
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  Speaker 1: Scott eas OAZIAHM. Preston. It is July thirty first, friends,
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  Speaker 1: and we thank you as always for joining us, whether
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  Speaker 1: you are listening on terrestrial radio or iHeartRadio ruminators, we
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  Speaker 1: appreciate it and we are thrilled to have back with us.
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  Speaker 1: One of our faves, Zack Smith, works with the Heritage
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  Speaker 1: Foundation and he's written a piece entitled the Southern Baptist Conventions.
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  Speaker 1: Theological commitments are worthless if they can't be in the
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  Speaker 1: public sphere. And Zach, welcome to the show again. How
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  Speaker 1: are you.
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  Speaker 2: I'm doing well, Thanks for having me on this morning.
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  Speaker 1: When I saw this as a former vocational pastor and
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  Speaker 1: knowing the Southeast as the Bible belt that it is,
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  Speaker 1: I was fascinated by this piece. Before we go back
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  Speaker 1: into some of the digging that you did going one
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  Speaker 1: hundred years or so back, let's go to what prompted this,
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  Speaker 1: why the decision to write this piece.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I am a Southern Baptist, attend to Southern
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  Speaker 2: Baptist Church and over in Pensacola, and I was able
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  Speaker 2: to attend. I was blessed enough to attend the Southern
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  Speaker 2: Baptist Convention in Dallas, Texas this year, and I was
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  Speaker 2: able to see some of the debates that took place
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  Speaker 2: on the floor, able to hear some of the disputes
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  Speaker 2: that have been taking place, and you know, with my
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  Speaker 2: work at the Heritage Foundation as well, I'm able to
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  Speaker 2: see why it's happening both in Tallahassee and in Washington,
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  Speaker 2: DC here and how Southern Baptists have engaged with some
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  Speaker 2: of the very important issues that have been coming up
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  Speaker 2: over the past several years. And so I thought now
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  Speaker 2: was a good time to talk about what Southern Baptist
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  Speaker 2: police are and how Southern Baptists have engaged with the
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  Speaker 2: political world in particular.
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  Speaker 1: If I were to be overly broad, and of course
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  Speaker 1: I am notorious for painting with a very big paint brush, Zach,
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  Speaker 1: it would seem to me that the SBC has found
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  Speaker 1: itself in some rough waters in the last couple of decades.
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  Speaker 1: Is that fair?
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  Speaker 2: I think it is a fair statement. Now, Look, I
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  Speaker 2: don't want to be a doom and gloom too much,
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  Speaker 2: and I think there is good news and maybe some
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  Speaker 2: areas for improvement. Coming out of the convention in Dallas.
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  Speaker 2: The good news, and I talk about this in my piece,
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  Speaker 2: is that Southern Baptists seem by and large to be
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  Speaker 2: on the same page about their core theological convictions. Obviously
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  Speaker 2: sharing the gospel across the globe, helping to plant churches,
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  Speaker 2: affirming God's good design of two genders, pushing back against
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  Speaker 2: things like pornography, sports betting. Southern Baptists are overwhelmingly on
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  Speaker 2: the same page about confronting those issues, saying they're bad.
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  Speaker 2: Where things get a little more tricky, and I think
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  Speaker 2: where you're seeing some disagreement is about how to translate
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  Speaker 2: those theological convictions into the public sphere of what is
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  Speaker 2: the best tactics, what are the best entities designed to
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  Speaker 2: do that? That is where we've seen a lot of
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  Speaker 2: disagreement over the past several years.
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  Speaker 1: Let's for the we got a couple of minutes before
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  Speaker 1: we take a quick break here. Let's where does the
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  Speaker 1: Scopes monkey trial fit into this arc of research that
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  Speaker 1: you did im penning this piece.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I looked back. You know, the Scopes monkey
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  Speaker 2: trial took place one hundred years ago last week, and
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  Speaker 2: obviously that was the trial that was purported to put
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  Speaker 2: God against evolution. It was by William Jennings. Bryan and
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  Speaker 2: Clarence Darrow were the attorneys, and I teed that up
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  Speaker 2: as the intro to my pleat piece because shortly after
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  Speaker 2: that trial started, Southern Baptists met in nineteen twenty five,
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  Speaker 2: and just like this past year in Dallas, Texas, in
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  Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five, Southern Baptists were confronted with one finalizing
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  Speaker 2: and formalizing what their core theological convictions were going to
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  Speaker 2: be as an entity, and then also how to translate
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  Speaker 2: those theological convictions into the public square. And so you know,
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  Speaker 2: many of the issues that were being confronted one hundred
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  Speaker 2: years ago, Southern Baptists are still having to confront in
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  Speaker 2: a new way today.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because we we we were on this topic.
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  Speaker 1: I do a devotional to start the show every morning,
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  Speaker 1: and one of the things we talked about is that
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  Speaker 1: though technology changes and we think we are more enlightened today,
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  Speaker 1: in reality, nothing much has changed since the Fall since
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  Speaker 1: the garden. Sin is sin and its and and Jesus
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  Speaker 1: called us to engage the culture without compromising our faith.
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  Speaker 2: That is absolutely right, and I think you know the
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  Speaker 2: form that some of the issues we're confronted today is
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  Speaker 2: a little bit different. I doubt the Southern Baptist in
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  Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five could have foreseen the rise of technology,
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  Speaker 2: things like iPhones I've had had, the Internet, and the
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  Speaker 2: unfortunately the omnipresent scourge of pornography that's so prevalent in
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  Speaker 2: society today. But you're absolutely right. Fundamentally, many of the
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  Speaker 2: issues are the same.
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  Speaker 1: Whether you are a Southern Baptist or not. This is
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  Speaker 1: a very interesting and I think important topic because there
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  Speaker 1: are so many that are and if you've listened to
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  Speaker 1: this program at all, you know that my constant challenge
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  Speaker 1: to you is to not make church attendance like you're
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  Speaker 1: paying your fire insurance premium. Don't treat it like you're
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  Speaker 1: checking a box. It's much greater than that, Zach. Is
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  Speaker 1: this discussion maybe debate inside the SBC about how to
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  Speaker 1: go about being relevant in culture? Is it about, you know,
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  Speaker 1: whether you're going to be a street preacher or whether
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  Speaker 1: you're going to be a lifestyle evangelist, or is it
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  Speaker 1: far more nuanced than that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think there is some of that debate happening.
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  Speaker 2: And look, I'll echo what you said just a minute ago,
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  Speaker 2: prestim the Southern Baptist Convention. We are the largest Protestant
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  Speaker 2: denomination in the United States today. Historically, Southern Baptists have
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  Speaker 2: been active in politics and have influenced the culture in
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  Speaker 2: an outsized way. And so I think what happens in
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  Speaker 2: the SBC, You're absolutely right, does affect certainly everyone who
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  Speaker 2: cares about many of these same issues, regardless of whether
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  Speaker 2: or not you're Southern Baptist yourself or not. But yes,
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  Speaker 2: part of the debate we're seeing in particular stems around
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  Speaker 2: how to engage with some of the political battles we're
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  Speaker 2: seeing today. Obviously, I think we can all agree prayer,
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  Speaker 2: having conversations with family, friends, and neighbors, those are vitally
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  Speaker 2: important things to do. But one of the entities of
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  Speaker 2: the SBC itself is called the Ethics and Religious Liberty
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  Speaker 2: Commission the e ORLC, and that's been a very controversial
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  Speaker 2: entity within the SBC because by and large it has
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  Speaker 2: taken positions over the past several years do not align
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  Speaker 2: with where a majority of Southern Baptists are on certain
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  Speaker 2: political issues, or they haven't agreed with how Southern Baptists
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  Speaker 2: think that we should translate certain of those theological commitments
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  Speaker 2: into the public square. The leadership has been somewhat controversial.
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  Speaker 2: Is formally headed by doctor Russell Moore, who has since
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  Speaker 2: left the Southern Baptist Convention and has taken, from my view,
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  Speaker 2: some theologically problematic positions in his new role. But so
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  Speaker 2: these are the types of debates that we are having,
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  Speaker 2: and I think you'll continue to see that, particularly unfortunately
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  Speaker 2: some controversies surrounding the ERLC over the coming year in
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  Speaker 2: the lead up to the next Southern Baptist Convention in Orlando, Florida.
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  Speaker 1: Zach, is it look I I have long wrestled with
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  Speaker 1: these issues, not just in in vocational ministry, and you
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  Speaker 1: might well could guess that I was pretty direct in
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  Speaker 1: the pulpit about stuff like this. I don't necessarily think
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  Speaker 1: that we ought to be worried what a majority of
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  Speaker 1: Southern Baptists, or a majority of Christians, or a majority
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  Speaker 1: of a Church of God, or anybody thinks. What does
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  Speaker 1: God's words say about this? Is the problem with the
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  Speaker 1: Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission a matter of quote interpretation
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  Speaker 1: of scripture? Or is it just kind of the watering
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  Speaker 1: down of what God's word says well, I think.
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  Speaker 2: It may be with both. It may be a matter
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  Speaker 2: of interpretation in some ways. And so one of the
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  Speaker 2: flashpoints in recent years has been over immigration. What does
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  Speaker 2: the Bible say about immigration? How should we deal with
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  Speaker 2: many of the issues we're facing the day. And unfortunately,
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  Speaker 2: just in recent weeks, the eROC has that come out
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  Speaker 2: and publicly backed a bill that would essentially grant amnesty
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  Speaker 2: to many individuals. Now, I think you can have disagreements
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  Speaker 2: about whether that's good or bad. I personally think that
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  Speaker 2: is a bad thing. I do not think we should
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  Speaker 2: support amnesty. But to come out and say that in
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  Speaker 2: some ways the Bible would compel certain positions, particularly on
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  Speaker 2: these very controversial issues surround the immigration and other entities,
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  Speaker 2: I think that is what's frustrated many Southern Baptists, because
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  Speaker 2: I think you can make a case in the opposite
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  Speaker 2: direction that in fact, we need to have secure borders,
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  Speaker 2: we need to enforce our laws, and I don't think
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  Speaker 2: there's anything unbiblical about taking that position. And so I
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  Speaker 2: think that tension is what many in the Southern Baptist
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  Speaker 2: Convention have found particularly troubling and particularly problematic.
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  Speaker 1: Fact, with Zach Smith talking about a piece about the
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  Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Church and the theological commitments and their relative expression,
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  Speaker 1: if you will, in the public square. We talked earlier
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  Speaker 1: this week in a sort of the start of the
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  Speaker 1: week devotional about you know, hugging close to Jesus, because
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  Speaker 1: if he's the light of the world and we're living
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  Speaker 1: in a dark world, you can't really go wrong if
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  Speaker 1: you hug right there to his hip, because he's going
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  Speaker 1: to illuminate the path for us. And the Old Testament
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  Speaker 1: had something to say about that, But Zach, it gets
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  Speaker 1: muddy sometimes when politics and personal opinions start to take
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  Speaker 1: maybe precedent over what God says simply in his word.
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  Speaker 1: And I want to circle back to the ERLC, the
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  Speaker 1: Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. There have been some concerns
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  Speaker 1: there and a bit of a lightning rod is developing.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's right. And look, I think we talked
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  Speaker 2: about the immigration context specifically. One of the major controversies
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  Speaker 2: around the ELC is they have partnered with groups that
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  Speaker 2: have taken money from George Soros and other very left
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  Speaker 2: leaning individuals who unfortunately are not followers of Christ and
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  Speaker 2: who unfortunately have pushed policies that are in direct contravention
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  Speaker 2: to what the Bible requires. And so I think many
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  Speaker 2: Southern Baptists, once they understand that, asked, why has the
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  Speaker 2: ERLC partnered with these other organizations? Now, certainly, in some areas,
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  Speaker 2: you know, there may be opportunities to partner and work
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  Speaker 2: with non believers to provide you know, good services or
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  Speaker 2: support to communities, particularly during times of crisis. But on
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  Speaker 2: many of these important public policy debates where you know
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  Speaker 2: this ELC is trying to invoke Biblical authority in sometimes
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  Speaker 2: questionable ways and then partnering with these other organizations. Again,
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  Speaker 2: I think that's why so many Southern Baptists are asking
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  Speaker 2: questions and are so concerned about the direction the LC
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  Speaker 2: has taken in recent years.
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  Speaker 1: So did the last convention really settle much? And what's
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  Speaker 1: left on the table for the next one on this issue?
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  Speaker 2: So it's good news and bad news. As I mentioned
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  Speaker 2: at the top of the show or the top of
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  Speaker 2: the segment, the Southern Baptist did pass very good resolution.
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  Speaker 2: To Andrew Walker, he's a professor at one of the seminaries,
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  Speaker 2: Southern Baptist seminaries. He was in charge of the resolutions committee,
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  Speaker 2: and he passed a number of excellent resolutions again on
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  Speaker 2: things like affirming God's good design related to marriage, affirming
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  Speaker 2: things like the two biological sexes, affirming scriptural and errancy.
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  Speaker 2: Many great things happening. The bad news again is that
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  Speaker 2: how to translate this into the public sphere. There is
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  Speaker 2: debate on that. So I think in Orlando we're going
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  Speaker 2: to see potentially conversations about the ELC against over forty percent,
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  Speaker 2: almost forty two percent of Southern Baptist messengers actually voted
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  Speaker 2: to abolish the EERLC at the convention in Dallas, Texas.
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  Speaker 2: That's an astounding statistic, and so we'll have to see
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  Speaker 2: if that conversation continues in Orlando. There's also conversations about
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  Speaker 2: whether Biblity women can be pastors and how to respond
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  Speaker 2: to churches that have ordained women pastors in their poolpits,
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  Speaker 2: And so I think those types of conversations are still
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  Speaker 2: going to have to be had when the next convention
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  Speaker 2: happens in of next year in Orlando.
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  Speaker 1: Are you going?
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  Speaker 2: A year is a long way away, and certainly, if
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  Speaker 2: God is gracious enough to let me go, I'll plan
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  Speaker 2: to be there.
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  Speaker 1: When you step away from it. Now you've written the
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  Speaker 1: piece you said, the feedback to this has been generally positive.
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  Speaker 1: Has the issue crystallized for you? The issues? Have they
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  Speaker 1: crystallized for you at all?
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  Speaker 2: Well? I think they have in some ways. I mean, look,
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  Speaker 2: I think many of these issues, as we were talking
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  Speaker 2: about earlier, the Bible is clear how to address them.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it may sometimes be uncomfortable, it may sometimes
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  Speaker 2: not be easy to follow through with the Bible's commands,
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  Speaker 2: but I think that is what we are called to
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  Speaker 2: do it. And look, I think it's important to understand
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  Speaker 2: as well, Preston, keep in mind that there are many
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  Speaker 2: battles we can agree on, things that we agree we
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  Speaker 2: need to confront, you know, across the political spectrum. In
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  Speaker 2: my hometown in Pensacola, Florida, for example, our city owned
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  Speaker 2: local theater has decided to host a drad show mocking
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  Speaker 2: Christ two days before Christmas last year, the Sancor Theater
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  Speaker 2: in Pensacola, Florida. And so I think all Southern Baptists,
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  Speaker 2: all Christians, and frankly, anyone who cares about just having
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  Speaker 2: respect for others in the community should be willing to
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  Speaker 2: come together and push back against those types of events.
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  Speaker 1: Zach, Thanks for writing what you wrote. And I appreciate
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  Speaker 1: you joining me to have the conversation this morning. I'm
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  Speaker 1: sure it's one we'll revisit again down the road.
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  Speaker 2: Be well, Thanks so much, Presdon take care.