Latest / Mental Health Matters / Wellbeing for Female Entrepreneurs

Transcript

Wellbeing for Female Entrepreneurs · Mental Health Matters

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: Audrey Tang.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And me, Jadith Crozier.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: This is the show where we talk about all things mental health and well-being.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Without the quick fixes and the hot takes, we have practitioner-led expertise and conversation.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Today's topic is entrepreneurship, but in particular, female entrepreneurship, because Dr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hayley Lewis, who is a wonderful previous guest on the show, that was her PhD research.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very excited about hearing about this.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: But there are very particular issues that entrepreneurs face which are not normally covered when we do training in organisations and so on.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, why would they be?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're going into an organization, very different setup.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so for you, I know you've just set up your own business, but you have had businesses before.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Are there any experiences that you would have said, actually, I didn't have that in the workplace, but this is new?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, I suppose just the fact that literally everything is down to you.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um that that's obviously the the bit the biggest thing for me, you know.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have to think of everything all of the time.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that yeah, that that that was but I but I think what I did was I just thought I'm gonna do this and did it, and didn't consider the the pitfalls or you know, the difficulties.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just kind of did it, and then just so had I thought about what might happen or you know what the pitfalls could be, I might not have done it.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of had that that's interesting, yeah.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Not because anything bad happened, no, but just because it it makes you think, oh I don't know, this is such a huge thing to take off.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I never had any of that, so I I kind of did it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not I'm not saying that this is uh I'm not advising people to do this, but I I just thought I've got this idea, I'm gonna do it, and I did it, and therefore there was no fear around it.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is one of those things because you you're absolutely right, you have to think of everything, which includes accounting, it includes bookkeeping, it includes the really boring stuff, yeah, which often isn't talked about when you are setting up your own business because you're thinking about the product or the offering and the website and what the client sees or what the customer sees.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the other stuff of okay, sick pay, holiday pay.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do I earn enough to actually keep the lights on?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, and you know there is no backup if you fall, you've you fall, and you've it's you that's got to pick yourself up metaphorically and well in my dog walking business physically as well, literally.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so that there's a lot to it.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this is gonna be a really interesting conversation.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: We'll bring Dr.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Haley on.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the studio, Hailey.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's so nice to see you always.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me back again.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, brilliant.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're both really looking forward forward to this um discussion.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I've just jumped straight into it.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, why do you think entrepreneurs have seemingly missed out on the talk around burnout?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um what's the make what makes them unique in their needs, do you think?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it depends who you're talking about when you talk about entrepreneurs.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think in my mind there's there's almost two categories.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: There are the big names who often come from a very privileged position.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the people I'm talking about, you see them on Instagram, you know, get up at 4am and crush the day, and we all have the same 24 hours, and you only have to there was the a recent episode of Stephen Bartlett's podcast, the diary of the CEO, where he had a guest on who said there's no such thing as burnout.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's interesting.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which has he's had quite a big backlash on that.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So so I I had that category, and then there are entrepreneurs who were like who are us, yeah, just normal people with businesses and normal lives where I don't think burnout has passed them by.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think we're seeing more and more out there in mainstream media and social media about this this concept of, for example, the squeezed middle.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think maybe for women going into business as uh and kind of becoming entrepreneurs later on in life, perhaps in their forties, fifties, sixties, but for for some of those they're experiencing that squeezed middle, they've got children who have needs, they've got older parents or maybe a partner um with needs alongside kind of running a business for for maybe younger female entrepreneurs that they might be raising young children, might be at that kind of early start of uh building a family whilst building a business, and then and then there's hormonal stuff as well, you know.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think for for it it's really interesting, we're seeing a big spike in women in their 50s setting up their first business, and um but alongside that if you've got peri or full menopause and and the the the hormonal fluctuations that come with that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean if I speak from my own experience, I'm in my fifties, I can have big energy crashes, so I've had to start crafting my business and my time around that, yeah.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think I think there's like a there's some biological stuff um as well as societal um stuff that that can often go on for for women in in entrepreneurship.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: And sort of going on the psychological stuff, there is this kind of hustle culture.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's you see it on in i it by influencers, and it's supposed to kind of in a way look cool and let's always do this.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to know what hustle culture actually is because for me, what it it doesn't look like hassling for sales.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: It actually doesn't look like that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: What it looks like to me is not being able to say no when I'm starting off, because if I don't say yes, I don't get paid.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that to me is hustle culture.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: What does it how does it present?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's really it's really interesting.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: One my my second ever job when I was at school was at McDonald's.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right, so yeah, got me five stars and everything eventually.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Nice! Um yeah, but but a big thing in the culture, and I remember the story it was about hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: You could never be stopping.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so hustle hustle is a very American thing, I think, and a capitalist thing that's permeated so many other countries and and and and cultures, and so you know, for me, hustle is you can never stop.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and even when you know you see these big entrepreneurs, people like Gary Vaynerchuk, talking about encouraging people to have their side hustle.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you do your nine to five job, you come home, have a bit of dinner, maybe spend an hour with your family, and then you know, from from eight till two, um, you you have your you work on your side hustle, and then you get kind of six hours sleep and go again.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's this kind of so so for me and and and the and the kind of rhetoric I see, um, it's that it's that you can never stop.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and and and a lot of and the kind of you know, you hear words like the grind, yeah.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hustle and grind, and that that was one of the the the kind of catalysts for me deciding to do my doctoral research into female entrepreneurship because it just wasn't sitting well with me, and I thought there has to be another way, that can't be the only way to be successful as a business owner, as a as an entrepreneur.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and and kind of the definitions of success as well, which we might explore later on in the conversation.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, that's that's what kind of comes to mind for me when I think of hustle.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's side hustle, it's grind, it's relentless.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and sort of linking your point with success here, um, our identity tends to be quite tied up in what we do and almost how much we are hustling or grinding.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: If we as women, and maybe I just speak for myself here, but I think Jude experiences this as well.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: If we stop and we're not hustling and we're not, we're lazy.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's that's a real issue that I think women seem to experience more than more than men do.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that is deep-rooted cultural stuff.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's hundreds of years old.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it goes back to that kind of that idea of the Protestant work ethic, for example, or or Catholic guilt, to name two of the big religions.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh did my first degree in history.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fascinated by the impact of uh uh uh of kind of things that happened a long time ago and how they're still kind of evident now.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I think yeah, that the the guilt and the shame that can often come with not not always doing, not have not always having a to-do list.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think when it comes to identity and work, and there are there are there are there are far more learned, clever people than me doing work on work and identity.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when I think about some of my clients that I work with, uh particularly those in corporate life who've who are burning out or burnt out, I think uh that the kind of the our identity gets so knotted in with work, our work, professional identity, and like that starts at a young age, you know.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you think about if you're a first gen going to university, like your parents your parents' aims and aspirations are put into you from a very young age, it's driven into you at school, and so you know, it's about getting a good job, then getting good salary, and then working your way up.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so if anything happens that upends any of that, well then we think we're bad people because we've it's so woven in, yes, it becomes so woven in, and and let alone if you do something left field, yeah, like leave a highly paid job, but to go it alone and set up your own business.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um people question who you are, you might question who you are.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think work, our work, our profession, who we are, and our identity are so woven, and that's deep, deep-rooted cultural, historical stuff, and that's hard to unpick at times.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's why it's important that we have these conversations, because I think we can be doing these things and not realizing that this is what is actually driving us to feel as we do.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just us kind of, oh, this is how I'm programmed.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: There is a programmeur somewhere, whether it's culture, family, and so on, that has put that into us in the first place.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: We are going to keep you, Haley, and we're gonna go to a clip from when Hailey was lost on our show.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't teach uh because I think it's a personal journey that people need to.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe I used the word journey.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it has to come up at least once.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course it does.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: So much as coach or suggest.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So my three suggestions born out of things that clients have found have worked for them, many of my clients have found work for them, and things I've experimented with as well.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, first up is label your boundaries non-negotiable or open to compromise.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think one of the traps we can end up in is is we set hard and fast rules, which can become stressful in and of themselves.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if I know there's a boundary where I'm like uh-uh, that's that's not for shifting, but actually there's a boundary where I can shift if I need it, that allows us more breathing space.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're talking to Dr.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Haley Lewis about uh female entrepreneurship and and burnout and um all around that really.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's an interesting chat.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so Haley, what would you say um are some of the damaging myths about success that can lead to burnout?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there are three that are really pervasive and and I I'm sure your your your viewers will have um or listeners will have will have come across these.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we all have the same 24 hours a day.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh which we know is absolute nonsense.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't don't compare me against Taylor Swift or Beyonce.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um because they've got a whole crew behind them, I don't.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Do whatever it takes, and if you and if you don't, you really don't want it enough.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's quite a toxic one.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I see that quite a lot.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um because that puts it all on you, and I mean of course there's an element of the part that we play in our success, but sometimes there are things going on around us as well, and the other one is um well, we all go through this, it's a rite of passage.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: This that you know you've got to go through the hard stuff to be success as an entrepreneur and a business owner.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I went through it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: What makes you any different?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's this notion that um I went through it, so you should.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not questioning whether what you're going through is is is right or fair or not.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the three things.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or no one deserves no one deserves to be more successful than you because you know you you've had a hard time, so why should someone else not you know you have to go through the hard time?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, spot on 100%.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So those are those are the three that I see pop up constantly, particularly on social media, but also in things like The Apprentice.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't I don't watch it anymore.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't watch it anymore, and my husband asked me why, because I used to watch it when it first for years when it first came out, and then I stopped I stopped watching it for two reasons, because I think it it portrays one way to be successful, you've got to be shouty and and like seize the day and wear suits and and all that, but also I didn't like the way the editing portrayed the women.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: How many times in the boardroom did we see the the kind of the screaming Harrodans?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so so yeah, so I think there's some really unhelpful messages both in the traditional media but also the social media, um, and that's why for our well-being we need to step away from that stuff regularly.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean that's true, regardless of what topic we're talking about.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's just important.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yes, yeah, really key.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what can entrepreneurs do to look after themselves then, especially given what you've just said?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's a few things.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, my own research I found uh the number one psychological factor that made a big difference to women succeeding, particularly in the early years of kind of going it alone and setting up their own business, um, was a supportive community.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: So uh consistently, in one of my studies, every single woman from different walks of life, they all said the same thing.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, whether that's being part of group formal group coaching, maybe with other women who are um business owners or in the early stages of business, or having a mentor, or just having um just drawing on your professional network that you've built over the years.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and kind of maybe you've maybe you've kind of got a few friendships that have developed through that.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, all of those things for me personally have been really helpful.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to pick or choose, but I think there is something really powerful about our relationships, uh, and I think women tend to be really good at that that stuff.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and it can feel quite lonely.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know uh and if you're coming from if you've if you've worked in an organisation and and suddenly you you've you've kind of made that brave, bold decision to to kind of do this thing for yourself, it can feel quite jarring.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: You go from a a kind of an organisation with a team and then suddenly on your own.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: So so kind of yeah, being really intentional about the relationships you have in place.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think scheduling your downtime, yeah, you know, look ahead in your diary, whether it's per quarter or half yearly or annually, I do it annually.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know I can go at full pace for about six to eight weeks, and then I need a good break, whether it's a week, whether it's a long weekend, and I do I I I plan out nice stuff to do.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you are a solopreneur, so you're on your own, like like me and like countless other women, unconscious every men listen to this as well, so this is useful for you as well.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um the quality of the service is is down to you are yeah service, and so it it's in your interest to kind of look after yourself so that you can be of best service to whoever your clients are.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think one more thing I'd say is be really clear on what your definition of success is because that's gonna help you kind of create a life um that works for you.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: One of whenever I'm doing coaching with women setting up their businesses, that's kind of I've I've got this like little subset of coaching that I do.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: The first question I ask them is what kind of life do you want your business to support?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Nice because I th I think we get it the wrong way around sometimes.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that gets to the heart then of and everything else then leads from that.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like how much effort are you prepared to put in?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: What sacrifices are you and aren't you prepared to make?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can craft your life around your business, yeah, or rather craft your business around your life.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that those are those are kind of just some ideas that hopefully are helpful for people.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Really helpful, yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely it is what do you want this business to support is much more important than going the other way because when you're very excited about creating your business, you're gonna jump straight into the business aspect of it and think that that is the life that you want to have as well.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it it's a very fine line that needs to be teased out a bit.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm really interested in your point that you said earlier about um scheduling time in for yourself and even and especially we all have 24 hours, no, we don't have the same 24 hours.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: My 24 hours will look very different to somebody else's 24 hours.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, with that in mind, how does somebody who's 24 hours is also involved with caring responsibilities and if maybe they're in the sandwich generation, they need to pay their bills, but they also need to take a break.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how do we support somebody to make that balance?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's not easy stuff.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a I think there's a couple of things.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, charge enough.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that is absolutely the biggest issue, the biggest issue of when whenever I'm working with women, maybe they're kind of two, three years in and they're really struggling, they're struggling to make ends meet, and I look at what their fees are, charging nowhere near enough what their expertise deserves.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So there is, and that actually came up as an issue in one of my studies.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the one of the hurdles, biggest hurdles is a discomfort with either managing finances or working with an accountant, understanding finances, or or kind of the fees that you ask for.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's I think that's a really important thing to get help with if you struggle with that.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, set the right fees because that makes, I mean, I I'll share my own story.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't do that at the start, and there was me thinking, uh, and I learnt very, very quickly.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um I was charging£100 an hour as a coach.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Back in 2016.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, like coming from a working class background, I was like, wow, that's what I'm saying.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Two hours travel there, two hours travel back, which I can't book any other clients.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's five well, five to six hours.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially I was earning£20 an hour.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's I I I think um thinking that stuff through is a game changer for me if that's helpful to share.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I share it with a lot of women who are starting out working for themselves or maybe they're struggling.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I was about two years into running Halo Psychology, it's my 10-year anniversary this year.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but two years in, um, and I was asked by uh a big consultancy to um be part, they were putting forward a kind of a pod of coaches.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they were approaching different um people who were experienced coaches and they were asking each of us for our fees.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I have and and the client they were delivering for was a big charity.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um I have uh I give a discount for charities, so I have my maim fee, and I said, Here's my here's my charity discount.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I happened to be at dinner with the the head of consultancy, um and I will be forever grateful to her because she said there were ten coaches, five women, five men.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, I kid you not, the five most expensive were the men.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: The lowest were the women.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: That wasn't that I mean, yeah.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: The the the cheapest woman was ten times less than the man in the one spot.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, here's the country the client was happy to go with that number one man's fee.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I went home that night and completely overhauled my fees.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was so I'm indebted to to her, and I think, I mean, you were touching on it just then.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: We need to be sharing these stories to help each other.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um, and I remember I remember watching a a clip with the very famous female entrepreneur Cindy Gallup, um, and she was talking at an event for women in business, and she she talked about these, and she said, keep saying a figure and go as high as you can until you start laughing and it feels uncomfortable.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it might seem quite a trite thing, but lots of the women that I I talked to, they found that works.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so so yeah, so money knowing what to charge and not doing too much for free, and that's where being part of a group and and kind of thinking about your fees, and then the other thing is segment your income into pots, I like to call them pots, yeah.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Always put a percentage aside for your tax first.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know lots of people who've got really stuck into a really awful situation because they haven't done that, but that always comes off first, and put that aside.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think um work out what you need.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you've if you've answered that question, what kind of life do I want my business to support?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: As part of that, you'll know.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: You'll know what you need per month or per quarter, and then my advice, and if this is just my advice, is only take that.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it can be very if you have a good core financial quarter where you exceed your income, it can be really easy to go like, oh yeah, I'll take it.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: But you don't know if there's going to be a rainy day or an emergency.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a great believer in just take what you need and keep squirrelling the rest away in a in a in a kind of a savings rainy day emergency pot.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you can also use that for training in the future.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of my my another top tip I I I have for for people wanting to kind of have that balance between not always having to work and having some time off, and that emergency fund uh can help you do that.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, Brilliant, really key points which aren't often talked about.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so glad you brought them up because setting fees is one of the hardest things to do, and it's you're absolutely right because you think, well, actually, if I break down how much I earn compared to my old job, I'm earning more on my own, but of course, because I never get sick pay, yeah, I don't get travel pay, I don't get all of these other benefits, which work is otherwise covering.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So very, very important.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's a tricky question, I suppose it maybe maybe an ethical or moral question.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you're struggling, do you let your clients know?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I asked this question because um what a female entrepreneur did, and it really worked out well for her, but then other people have done it and it's really backfired because the client is now thinking, oh well, they can't cope.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: They've lost confidence, maybe.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: So where do you not gonna like my answer?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you'll know what my answer's gonna be.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think it depends.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it depends on your clients, I think it depends on the context you're working in.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if I've got a one-to-one client, maybe it's uh a leader, a female leader who's going through a really hard time um in their role in their organisation, or maybe it's somebody uh a woman struggling with her business.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think sharing bits of that can be a moment of empathy and you're not alone, yeah, and helping them not feel so ashamed.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because look, you know, yeah, um, but um I've got other clients.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: If I think about some of my UK government department clients, uh-uh, yeah, yeah, no.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, so I think I think it depends.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something about your judgment on on that, and also what purpose is it serving?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, that I think that's the question we need to ask ourselves for everything.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think what purpose is this serving?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: We had another guest who always asks, is it helpful?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's those sorts of questions we don't ask enough.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And the other one I would add on to that is what is my intention?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: What am I trying to get from this conversation?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're absolutely right.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have a one-to-one client where if I need to move the day, they're fine, and I know they're gonna be fine because that's the relationship we have.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: But if it was say a training client, start moving days.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're now dealing with abroad and all kinds of things, yeah.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: You show up.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, really good happens.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really glad we're having this conversation.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, these are things, especially when you're starting out, you just think you've got to serve everyone and everything.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're not charging rates to be able to do that, that's an issue.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: We are keeping Haley, and we are going to be back right after another clip from when Dr.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Haley was on our show previously.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Be clear in your communication, be short, succinct, and clear in what your boundary is.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because Caroline Webb talks about this in her book, How to Have a Good Day.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Clarity is calming for the human brain.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: When things are ambiguous or open to interpretation, it can be really stressful for us.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So being clear with people, they might not like the message, but weirdly it's it gives them certainty.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So so be clear.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love, I don't know if you've I I'm a big fan of Sarah Milliken.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, comedian, I adore her, and in one of her shows, she says no is a complete word.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, I've heard her say that.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I bought her necklace, she had a necklace in conjunction with Tatty Devine, the jewellery company, and it just says no.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I'll wear it when I need that reminder.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: We are having a fascinating conversation with Dr.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Haley Lewis on female entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship in general.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the key things that's really resonated is about setting fees and how difficult that can be.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something if you want to get hold of Haley and speak to her about this, it's something that she will be able to offer support with.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: But another thing that I see a lot in in entrepreneurs, maybe, or I think I just see a lot in the workplace, is perfectionism.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't want to give it to the client because it's not perfect, or those sorts of behaviours.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: How can we step back from this feeling of it has to be perfect when per perfection is subjective anyway?
• 31:16
  unknown: True.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I I I think thinking about where's that pressure to be perfect coming from?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's in psychology, we talk about there's there's three forms of perfectionism, and some of us might be at the mercy of all three.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's us putting the pressure on ourselves, so there's an internal thing, there's there's kind of forcing others to be perfect, so putting your um standards on others, and then there's societal pressures, and I think for those of us who work for ourselves uh uh and as women working for ourselves, I think it's probably a combination of it's it's kind of comes from the self that there's societal stuff as well, you know, be the good girl, you know, k make everything look nice, it's gotta, it's gotta be good.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think the way that I see this show up with female entrepreneurs who are running their own business is for example, if they're launching a new product or service or a website, they want it to be perfect and they'll tweak and tweak and tweak and tweak and tweak before launching.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: But but we know 2026 the world is far too fast for that now, and somebody's gonna pass you by.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, so there's something about what help can you get?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you need to get help to get something up and running?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, so not feeling like you've got to do it on their own because working with someone else will challenge you.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about to launch something for my 10th birthday in May, my but my business's 10th birthday in May.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: I could have done it alone, but I know I would have I would have kept tweaking, tweaking, tweaking.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working with someone who is really pushing me to be like good enough is good enough.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something about can you have can you work with someone else to to help you?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and and and maybe maybe define what good enough looks like for yourself.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think there's something about I think it's quite normal.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think having lots of doubt and uncertainty is quite normal, particularly when we're at the start of our entrepreneurial journey.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I and so making sure you're regularly reflecting on the lessons learned.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I've shared a few of my own lessons here, and that's again where being part of um a coaching group, or there's a concept called masterminds often in in entrepreneurship, or finding a mentor.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: But but yeah, I think it's I think it's really valuable and a really powerful way to to offset the perfectionist tendencies when we're kind of reflecting and learning because that that kind of gets us thinking, oh, I've I've done it, or I can do it, and it doesn't need to be perfect, and actually it worked really well.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, so I think having other people to to bounce off or who are gonna constructively and safely uh challenge you and push you can be helpful.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Very important.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: They do talk about the mastermind network of like-minded people, maybe women for women, but it's it's quite important because your friends aren't necessarily on that same journey, it's not the right network to be having those discussions at that level that you need them.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but also your point about perfectionism.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just think about my own websites, I have three of them.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: I have changed and tweaked them over the years I've been running them, and so what you put out there in the first place is never gonna be the be-all and end all because your direction changes, what you do changes, your team changes, and so on.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's that's really important advice as well.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let's go, it kind of goes back to fee setting.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Why is it we overgive, we work for free, we do all of those extra things, which actually it gets to a point where you are known.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: You are the person people want, you are the person people are gonna pay for.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: How do we then change that in our own heads when we've made that step?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think I think I think a a big proportion of why as women in business uh and as entrepreneurs we tend to overgive is is it goes back to what we were talking about earlier.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of it's is societal and and cultural, like that whole good girl um concept, and it's nice to be nice and give, and um I think I I mean I see a number of ways um like going over time.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if a client's paid for a 60-minute coaching, like if you've got a coaching business, for example, but you you let it go over 70 minutes, you know, if you keep doing that with with each client, that's a lot of time that you're that you're losing.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's unpaid for.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think um so one of the things that I find helpful is having a time because I'm a bit chatty, as you all know.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um so when it comes to coaching, for example, I have I put a timer on at 50 minutes.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not that's for me, that's that's to kind of alert me.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so yeah, so doing things like that, I think giving too much away for for free.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's really interesting.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's about being strategic and intentional.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to your point, Audrey, around why am I doing this?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I give a lot of content away for free, but that is very, very deliberate.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a lot of very well-meaning people enter into my chat on LinkedIn saying you could monetize this stuff.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know I could, but I choose not to because not everyone can afford to work with me, but actually, my mission is to help as many people managers as possible be better, be more confident.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so my content, my free content, my free ebooks do two things.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: It helps them, yeah, which taps into one of my core values.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is I get quite a lot of clients off the back of that stuff.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so but it's a strategic thing.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not just randomly giving everything away for free, I'm not giving my time away for free.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh the the conversation the three of us had about boundaries, yeah, and I shared the article I'd written about boundary setting, one of the most popular, it's been one of the most shared articles I've ever written.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's been shared a quarter million times.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: One I know it blows my mind.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things people often refer to is I I've I've got a series of answers for entrepreneurs when you are asked to deliver something for free.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, could you just deliver this course for us for free?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Could you come and give this talk for International Women's Day?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh for free.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got four answers cut and paste that you can use.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so either go back and watch that episode or we'll put the article link in the show notes, and you can go and just cut and paste that to answer and push back when you're asked to work for free because you are worth more than that.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it is some of those things where sometimes it does depend on whether you will get value from that working for free.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Some things do, yeah.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: TEDx, for example, they don't pay you.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Full stop, they do not pay you, but doing it it's huge.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is and that's strategic, yes, strategic.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is what I'm talking about, not just randomly saying it's like it's a very clear, well thought out part of your marketing strategy.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, you're not kind of getting swept away by all the requests, you're thinking like a business owner.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, yeah, there's there's a big difference then, isn't there?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you touched on this before with groups and and mentors you mentioned, but what would you say is the kind of community that women in business need more of?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are loads out there already already.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, for example, if you're on someone like Instagram uh and you look at the hashtags like female entrepreneurs or women in business, you'll you'll kind of come across all sorts of communities.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's there's communities for women in business who are wanting help with their finances.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, there's a I think I think there's an Instagram um account called She Invests.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: They are doing brilliant, brilliant work to help women understand more about managing their finances.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you can attend workshops.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Deborah Meadon's now set up um something for women in business around uh being more financially astute.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I keep seeing her adverts pop up all the time on Instagram.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you're a neurodivergent entrepreneur, you've got, for example, uh entrepreneurs like Amanda Parry on Instagram who uh she's she talks about it a lot, she's she's got ADHD, and so she's she's creating a community to help female entrepreneurs who are diagnosed with ADHD who have often other challenges that they're grappling with alongside trying to have a successful business.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: So she's created an amazing community as well.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's already tons of communities out there.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's just about kind of searching on social media, um, or reaching out to to people like us and asking who we'd recommend or or groups we'd recommend.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are tons out there.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: So what what do you think one what one change could could make a difference to a female entrepreneur who thinks she needs to be everything?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: So a leader, a parent, a friend, etc.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be the same answer as the previous one.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think it depends on the woman and the context.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think one change for that works for one woman might not work for another.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: However, I think if you're gonna push me, I think it's about getting better at setting boundaries that are helpful for you.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so again, I you know, maybe have a listen to the episode that we recorded, the three of us, about boundary setting.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, because there's some helpful advice on that.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great advice, and I think everyone could probably tighten up their boundaries a little bit, couldn't we?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's great, thank you.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so where where can we go to learn more about you and what you do?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I have my website, so Halo as in Angel, Halopsychology.com.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's lots of free stuff, uh, but there's lots of articles um on well-being and and a whole host of things uh for you to go and access.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm mainly on LinkedIn, uh, so you can find me at Dr.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Haley Lewis and I'm on Instagram as Haypsyke.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I share lots of well, I think it's useful, useful content across both both platforms.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's brilliant.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: And as always, thank you for your time.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Really insightful responses as well, because there's just so much which I think seems to be missed out when we have general well-being sessions, because you go into organisations, they aren't necessarily going to be entrepreneurs in there.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: You're giving a workplace well-being session.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: It can feel like entrepreneurs don't have much in there for them, and and yet they're facing very unique struggles and situations.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, thank you as always, and we look forward to having you back on the show again.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would love that.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and thank you so much for having me again.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and I hope your listeners found that helpful.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing, we shall head over to Test of Trend.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: For today's Test of Trend, I wanted to pick up on something Dr.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: Haley was saying in our conversation.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: And this is about who our competitors are and what the issues are that we might face with them.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, just to give you an example, whenever I have to pitch a book, I have to say who the other authors are in my area, what they're writing about, how they're doing it.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: So for You, if you were doing a sort of a business exploration exercise, who would you say your biggest competitors were?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um for what I'm currently doing or what I did before?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Either for the cafe that you've set up or your dog walking business.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's interesting because it it there's a very different um feel around competitors.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: So for dog walking, I looked in the area and loads of people are doing dog walking.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: But more people than there are dog walkers want dog walkers.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that was okay.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: The the competition didn't matter at all.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: We offered something slightly different as well, which which meant that we were slightly you know in um demand for which which was great.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: The cafe is very different because the competition obviously I looked into the competition where people are geographically and what they offer, and that I think has a bigger impact um because you because of marketing and because of um supply and demand is not exactly the same as dog walking, so it it's very, very different.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yes, cafes are comp competitors, but also so are pubs that offer coffee and and things like that.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: So and also the locations are something to take into consideration.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very different, and I imagine every business starter has different areas to look at, and there are different factors that will impact on whether they're successful or not, certainly at the beginning.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that is exactly the point.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many different factors, it depends on the type of business that you're going to be starting.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for the cafe, you're absolutely right.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Geographical factors are going to be one of those things.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for dog walking, it will be demand as well, as well as geography.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there's all of those things.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: But the biggest thing I notice whenever I've asked this at university is, you know, so who are your biggest competitors?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: People will say, Oh, I want to start up a photography business.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: They will mention these massive, massive, bigger fish companies.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, interesting, okay.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's who they see as their biggest competition.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, that's the myth I want to break, and Dr.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Haley mentioned this as well.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily the bigger fish that you need to worry about, it is the faster fish.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: It is the fish that goes, I've got the idea, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna see what happens as I go along the way.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because by the time you've been perfecting your website to compete with the bigger fish who really aren't your competition because you've got to think more locally, the smaller fish, but the faster fish has now gone.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've tried that, that didn't work, so I'm gonna skew it to my competition.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: I know what my my geographical area is, I know what I'm working with, and they can make those tweaks and off they are running already.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: It would be like me worrying about the writs.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, when actually it might be the coffee shop who's gonna open next door quicker.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the thought.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: Test the trend this week, think about your faster fish, not your bigger fish.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: There is there is so much to take away from that conversation.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um what what key points are you gonna think about this week?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one is just how brilliant Dr.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Haley is.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: She's she's so brilliant, I could listen to her all day.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think it's something that we've both picked up on, which is that she she talked about the things that other people don't talk about.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, fee setting.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: One of the most important things.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, you're when it when we kind of know that when you're on your own, you don't have the fallback of your organization being able to say, Well, you're paying you're getting paid anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you don't show up, you don't get paid.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to factor that into what you're charging, and then you don't have to take back-to-back work, which is, I think, the other thing which can burn you out.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because I suppose when you're starting, you take anything that's offered within reason because you don't know when your next work might be coming, and you know, Dr.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Haley's 10 years down the line, and you're a lot of years down the line, and you can choose not to do something if it doesn't suit you.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um whereas I I absolutely can see that people just starting out are just gonna take everything and then burn out in the first year, and then do a lot for free, and do and do a lot for free as well.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I think her strategic point is really, really key.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: Does this thing that I'm gonna do for free serve me strategically?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and sometimes you have to do stuff for free.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, if no one knows who you are, you're going to have to make that impression.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to have to, whether it's to make yourself a trailer reel or something, a show reel, whatever it is, maybe the free thing will position you strategically.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: But then when you've got paid work, maybe you need to stop with the free thing.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well well, exactly.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's deciding how much of your free thing to give away.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm quite happy to give away little bits of free um brownies.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna come in to people that then then will then come back and buy things.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but if they've if they start coming in at the time where you're giving away the free stuff, you know that they're just taking advantage and they're not actually going to be buying.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this is the thing, it is about doing things strategically, doing things with intention, and actually being aware of your value.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's the other thing.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: And especially if it's a service that people do want, it does mean you can afford to charge more.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the way I think I see this, and I'm beginning to realise it for myself, is when people want me, they don't just want a leadership trainer because I am so unique in how I deliver, they want me.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Which means that I can then say, you know, if you well, if you want me, this is how much I charge.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: But the funny thing is, in my own mindset, it was only when I didn't want to do the job that I started charging stupid prices and then they still said yes.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's really interesting.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it but it it goes back to uh yes, exactly.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: It makes you realise your actual value and is maybe more than the value that you put on yourself.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it goes back to what Dr.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Haley said was that client chose the most expensive out of ten.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the other interesting thing there is that person may be brilliant and maybe worth every single penny or not.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, if you've charged enough that gives you the rest of the month off or the rest of the next six months off, is that a problem for you?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm saying morally that is an issue, but yeah, yes, interesting.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Lots to think about on that note.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Have a healthy week, but