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Peter Levenstrong on Why the Future of Preaching Is Collaborative · Future Christian

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  Loren Richmond Jr (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Loren (00:17) Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today Martha Titarnik welcomes the Reverend Peter Levinstrong. Peter Levinstrong is associate rector at Saint Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco, where over the past six years he developed Living Story Sermons, a collaborative, tactile preaching method now used by more than one
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  hundred and thirty preachers across denominations. His book Collaborative Sermons, a guide to authentic interactive worship. through Living Stories is out now from Church Publishing. He writes about the human part of ministry in an AI world on his substack, The Human Part, and is a Trinity Leadership Fellow and Senior Fellow on AI at Tritank Research Institute. He holds an MDiv from Yale Divinity School and lives in Oakland with his wife Caitlin and their son Caspian. Before we start the show,
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  please take a moment to leave a review, share Future Christian with a friend, Or connect with Lauren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. We appreciate your support as together we look forward to the future of Christianity and the church. Martha Tatarnic (01:30) Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I'm your host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic and I'm really happy today to be joined by the Reverend Peter Levenstrong Welcome, Peter. It's great to have you on Future Christian.
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  Peter Levenstrong (01:44) Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Martha Tatarnic (01:47) Yeah, so why don't we introduce you a little bit to our listeners and it will give me a chance to get to know a little bit more about you as well. ⁓ we don't know each other. so if you can just share with us a little bit about your faith journey, what that has looked like in the past, what it looks like now, just sketch out a bit of your journey for us. Peter Levenstrong (02:12) Sure, yeah. Well, I grew
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  up mostly non religious and I say that ⁓ it's a little confusing. I was baptized as a kid but followed my older brother in rejecting church at a very young age. So mostly grew up ⁓ non religious until I went to college and Martha Tatarnic (02:26) Okay. Peter Levenstrong (02:32) was exploring a lot of different religious traditions then and for a while I was really interested in Buddhism and ⁓ contemplative traditions, ⁓ like Buddhist meditation, ⁓ but then you know, found out about
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  contemplative Christianity, which I had not heard of before, ⁓ and started exploring that and realized there could be a home for me in Christianity. So ⁓ so I yeah, became Christian by weight of Buddhism. and ⁓ also by way of a you know period of ⁓ serious questioning about ⁓ God and faith in general and and and so I think that has ⁓ shaped a lot of my ⁓ approach to talking about faith and spirituality and religion because I I can sort of you know see multiple sides even as I've ended up
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  choosing a home for myself ⁓ and I find that to be something that still is present with me today as I you know explore what Christianity means for people today. ⁓ but that's a bit about, you know, where I came from. Martha Tatarnic (03:39) Yeah, I I mean I would imagine ⁓ that that would be ⁓ really helpful in terms of being a pastor, in terms of leading a congregation. ⁓ what is the context in which you're serving right now? Because you somewhere along the line there got ordained and you work
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  in the Episcopal Church? Peter Levenstrong (03:58) Sure. Yeah. Yeah, so I serve as the associate rector at St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco. It's a very creative congregation. ⁓ we have really value the the creative work of creating beauty and making church together. And so there's ⁓ a lot of music we use that people have composed themselves. we have icons that ⁓ our parishioners have have written themselves. ⁓ and so there's a lot of creativity and art and perhaps what
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  we're best known for is the dancing saints and the which is which are painted on ⁓ rotunda in our building and we also dance below them in our liturgy every Sunday. So so we're known as the the dancing church for folks who know us. Martha Tatarnic (04:55) Yeah, and I mean correct me if I'm wrong here, but like Saint Gregory of Nyssa is known for quite a significant output of theological reflection and liturgical reflection and writing and in what it means to be contemporary church today is but
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  I I'm correct about that, right? Peter Levenstrong (05:05) Sure. Yeah, I mean from back in the fourth century when he was writing, we have ⁓ we a big part of our life together is referring to the very ending of his the life of Moses, one of his most important works, where he talks about how the one thing truly worthwhile is to become God's friend. as opposed to, you know, try to get on God's good side or get reward or avoid punishment or whatever. The the one thing truly worthwhile is
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  becoming God's friend. And so we we talk about what it means to be God's friend ⁓ and what friendship with God and with each other really looks like. And so that's sort of a an orienting North Star for us. We actually have it in the cupola painted on the inside Martha Tatarnic (05:44) Hmm. Peter Levenstrong (06:09) so that when you're inside our rotunda, ⁓ standing around the altar which is in the middle of the rotunda, ⁓ you can look up and see those words up above us all. Martha Tatarnic
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  (06:21) Wow, that's really beautiful. It makes me wanna book a flight to San Francisco and che check out the sanctuary. Yeah, amazing. w did you serve somewhere else before being at Saint Gregory? Have you how long have you been ordained? What did that path kind of look like? Peter Levenstrong (06:28) Sure. Mm-hmm. So I came straight out of seminary. I was ⁓ I was ordained in twenty twenty during the pandemic. ⁓ so I Martha Tatarnic (06:47) fun. Peter Levenstrong (06:49) Yeah, gradu
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  graduated from Yale Divinity School in twenty twenty. You know, my everybody had ⁓ tons of empathy for the graduating class of twenty twenty. But I actually think we had it ⁓ the best of anybody who was, you know, in seminary at that time 'cause we got out of there and everybody else had like another year or so of, you know, COVID seminary. So, Martha Tatarnic (06:57) yeah. Peter Levenstrong (07:11) So anyways, ⁓ I was lucky. I ⁓ I got ordained in June of twenty twenty as a priest, for my
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  second ordination in the Episcopal Church and Martha Tatarnic (07:11) True, yeah. Peter Levenstrong (07:22) There at Saint Gregory's and a small group of just eleven people allowed to be there and then began my ministry with Saint Gregory's six years ago. ⁓ actually yesterday was my ordination anniversary. So yeah. Thank you. ⁓ so it's yeah, it's been six years and it's been a a great time. ⁓ but straight straight out of seminary. Martha Tatarnic (07:34) ⁓ well happy anniversary. Okay, and ⁓
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  you know, what did that sense of call look like for you? Were you in a different profession before you ⁓ made the leap into ordained ministry? Peter Levenstrong (08:00) Yeah, no, I okay, so the the gap between the two parts of my life story I've shared is that at the end of college when I became Christian I had already been thinking about becoming a Buddhist monk or a Catholic priest for a while. I was at Georgetown, so there were a lot of Catholic priests ⁓ and Jesuits and also ⁓ a Buddhist
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  meditation group that I was a part of. Martha Tatarnic (08:15) ⁓ okay. Peter Levenstrong (08:24) and was seriously considering those options, but felt called to have a family as well. And so ⁓ finally I decided I would give Protestantism a chance and ⁓ decided to join the Episcopal Church and, you know, immediately started talking to the priest at the church down the road about wanting to become a priest myself and she was, you know, rightly s ⁓ responded with like, you know, slow down, ⁓ get
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  to know the church, spend some time. ⁓ and so I took two years ⁓ between college and seminary Martha Tatarnic (08:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Peter Levenstrong (08:53) doing different service corps ⁓ work. So I was in St. Louis with ⁓ an organization called the Episcopal Service Corps. You know, they put you together in a a year long intentional community and everybody works in different nonprofits or churches. And I worked at the cathedral there. And then I went back to DC where I
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  had been for Georgetown, but then ⁓ worked for Sojourners for a year. which is ⁓ a faith based ⁓ social justice advocacy organization and they're often known for their magazine as well. But anyways, those were the two things I did ⁓ between college and then heading off to seminary. Martha Tatarnic (09:17) Okay. Hi, well thanks for filling that out a little bit for all of us. I think it provides some context for what we're going to be talking about. Now, we do ask this question of most of our
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  guests. I realize ⁓ this could sound a little redundant because I think your whole book is about a particular spiritual practice. but is there another spiritual practice that is meaningful to you right now that you would like to share with our future Christian community? Really? Peter Levenstrong (10:03) Sure. Well for starters, yes, I you know, Living Stories sermons, which we're about to talk about, is, you know, very enriching ⁓ for me every Sunday because I love being surprised as the
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  preacher. But we'll get into that. ⁓ the another thing that ⁓ you know, a spiritual practice that I do daily is a ⁓ I see it as a modified Jesus prayer, coming from the Orthodox tradition, but then also you know, modified by way of incorporating something I learned from Tonglen meditation, which is a Tibetan meditation tradition. ⁓ so typically the Jesus prayer is, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner and you sort of repeat that over and over as a something of a mantra. ⁓ and
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  Tonglen is a type of meditation that is about ⁓ expanding your circle of empathy. So starting with yourself and then moving out to, you know, ⁓ wish loving kindness upon other people. And so I ⁓ you know, I stumbled upon using the Jesus prayer first saying, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner, and then over time going out to focusing on praying for other people ⁓ in my Martha Tatarnic (11:05) Hmm. Peter Levenstrong (11:22) daily prayer. ⁓ so that's what my my pr daily prayer
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  practice looks like and combined with a bit of a Lexio Divina thing. Martha Tatarnic (11:30) Wow, that's I I'm quite taken with that. I I'm gonna give that a try. But that's lovely. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, well, with all of that background, let's get into our main topic, which is a book that you have just published. It is called Collaborative Sermons A Guide to Authentic Interactive Worship Through Living Stories. so you have told us a little bit ⁓ Peter
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  Levenstrong (11:35) Sure. Martha Tatarnic (12:00) about St. Gregory of Nyssa. Maybe you can just share a few more things that would help our listeners to understand the background to these collaborative sermons. Peter Levenstrong (12:15) Sure. Yeah. Well St. Gregory's is ⁓ a parish community that was founded in nineteen seventy-eight. We moved into the building that we're now at in nineteen ninety-five. ⁓ and we and the building was built for this community with a liturgy that was ⁓ much of
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  it was already, you know, in mind from our founder's time at ⁓ at Yale before coming to San Francisco and starting this community. So ⁓ it is something of a unique space to have a a building that is purpose built for a liturgy that is different from your typical liturgy in that we move around the space and we dance. ⁓ and so ⁓ we have always stressed the value of participation in liturgy. ⁓ we love roping in visitors to do our readings. So if you ever come visit, then you'll probably be asked t
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  d to do one of the readings on the Sunday. ⁓ and then we also just love ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (13:19) Okay. Peter Levenstrong (13:24) a phrase that a phrase that we often use is ⁓ we like to make church together. We you know our liturgy is all about ⁓ participating and it's truly the people's work ⁓ to to make church together and so ⁓ it's a a community that was already primed for participation in the liturgy and I benefited a lot from that as I was you know exploring ⁓ what became Living Story
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  Sermons for sure. Martha Tatarnic (13:43) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah, I think that that ⁓ that provides some really good context. Now, I found the opening part of the book well, I found the whole thing quite interesting. ⁓ but you know, like you don't always recognize the water that you're swimming in. So it was interesting to hear you just lay out some of the assumptions that are built into a traditional sermon. The traditional sermon with which most Peter Levenstrong (13:56) Sure.
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  Mm. Martha Tatarnic (14:20) Of us in Christian leadership are familiar with that is the water that we swim in, that's the kind of preaching that formed us and that we in turn kind of internalize. So yeah, can you just share with us what do you see as some of the shortcomings of the traditional sermon and what are the assumptions that are baked into it? Peter Levenstrong (14:47) Yeah, well I think ⁓ a big part of my exploration of Living Stories has helped me to see and say the quiet part out
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  loud, ⁓ which I think you know, implicit in the way that we typically structure our liturgies is the idea that there's only one person who has anything worthwhile to say about scripture on any given Sunday, ⁓ which ⁓ you know, for sure isn't true, and perhaps could be an argument for not that not that one person is special, ⁓ but that Martha Tatarnic (15:12) Ha ha. Peter Levenstrong (15:27) you know, you have to ⁓ do a lot of preparation to have something worthwhile to say and, you know, one
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  person has done that. But I I I still kind of ⁓ don't believe that whole idea because I think that ⁓ the Holy Spirit can can speak through all of us and often without preparation. In fact that's how Jesus tells us to ⁓ to get ready to speak and that the Spirit will provide the words needed. ⁓ and and so there's actually a really beautiful richness in just trusting the people in the room and the spirit to show up and, you know, together with scripture there that is being read that something
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  beautiful will take shape and ⁓ come to life in ways that you can never expect beforehand because you never know what people are going to bring with them. Martha Tatarnic (16:18) Yeah, I mean when you r really think about it, like it's a pretty terrifying proposition that there would only be one person in the room, i.e., like me or you, ⁓ who who has anything to say about scripture. Like, God forbid that that would be the case. Peter Levenstrong (16:29) Ha ha ha. Right? I mean Right. We want
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  everybody to have something to say about scripture. That's the pastor's dream is the whole congregation is, you know, on fire with talking about how scripture speaks to them. And yet we do the exact opposite in our liturgies. Martha Tatarnic (16:49) Yeah, well and exactly. And like as someone who is, you know, quite in tune with my own limitations, the idea that like I'm it is kind of scary. Peter Levenstrong (17:01) Sure. Martha Tatarnic (17:05) Yeah, so I think I think those assumptions
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  are right to be named and ⁓ and called out a little bit. Can you just share with us what the journey looked like toward this living stories, collaborative sermons, what a collaborative sermon is, what a living story is, how you got there, because when you were first ordained six years ago, you were more of a traditional preacher I'm imagining. Yeah. Peter Levenstrong (17:35) Sure. Yeah. Yeah, in fact ⁓ coming to St. Gregory's was a bit of a stretch because ⁓ it was arguably the first time
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  that some form of collaborative preaching had ever been ⁓ sort of put upon me, because we already have this practice that we still do every Sunday at one of our two services, ⁓ where we call it sermon sharing, where after the sermon, after a more traditional sermon ⁓ we have people stand up and share their own experiences that might relate to what has been said so far. And it's weird to hand over the mic and, you know, let someone else sort of do a a talk back, not quite a talk back, but
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  something similar, ⁓ after you've finished your sermon. so we do we do that every week at our ten thirty, and now every week at our eight thirty is where we do Living Stories. So just for you know, to keep those clear, these are two different Martha Tatarnic (18:19) Yeah. okay. Okay. Peter Levenstrong (18:33) ways of preaching collaboratively that are both happening ⁓ every Sunday at St Gregory's. and yeah, so even just being stretched in in that first way was was something for me, ⁓ because
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  I hadn't experienced that before. And then we the way it came about was we were working towards moving towards regathering after the COVID pandemic. This was in Easter of 2021, and the kids in our congregation had been doing godly play over Zoom, and we had been doing a Zoom liturgy, and the kids were ready to come back and be in person and do godly play in person. And we said, Okay, we can do that in our back parking lot outdoors, where it'll be safe. And then I also yeah, I just asked my
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  rector, like Martha Tatarnic (19:04) Right. Peter Levenstrong (19:32) Why can't we also do a Eucharist then? So he said, sure. And so then it became godly play and Eucharist. And as a priest who had been ordained nine months earlier in the pandemic, these were actually my first fully in-person services that I was leading with a portion of my congregation was just a couple families, where we did godly play as our liturgy of the word for our readings and sermon, and then ⁓ Eucharist. And you
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  know, godly play Should I just quickly say what that is? ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (20:02) Yeah, maybe you can yeah, I think you should because not everybody would be familiar with what godly Peter Levenstrong (20:07) Yeah, so it is a a wonder based approach to sharing scripture chor stories with primarily with children, primarily in Sunday school, and the Godly Play Foundation can do a much better job of telling their own story. ⁓ and so I don't wanna, you know, I I'll just refer anybody to to
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  their work. There is also, at least in the Episcopal Church, a phenomenon of using Godly Play stories, which are ⁓ I think initially made for you know Sunday school as the sermon, you know, the liturgy of the word. And ⁓ and so godly play sermons are Martha Tatarnic (20:47) So rather than somebody getting up and doing like one reading, it instead the reading is done in a godly place style, is that correct? Okay. Peter Levenstrong (20:57) Yeah, and so there's there's a an enacted story using
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  like wooden figures and felt underlays and away to visualize the story in a very analogue way and then also ask these wondering questions to invite reflection upon the story. Now we weren't the first ones to do that and use it as the sermon, but what we did that as far as I know no one else had done, ⁓ was to Martha Tatarnic (21:12) Right. Peter Levenstrong (21:26) take that, keep on going with it, and then try to make something new that fit the that was purpose built for the liturgy of the
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  word on this in the Sunday Eucharistic liturgy. And so ⁓ we made it so that we were actually following the lectionary, which you know you're kinda supposed to do if you're in the Episcopal Church and many other denominations. ⁓ and we made it so that we're use using the actual words of scripture rather than a retelling. Martha Tatarnic (21:49) Yeah. Peter Levenstrong (21:55) And then we also ⁓ started using our own wondering questions that are more tailored for for an intergenerational
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  congregation. And over time those meant a lot of you know different ⁓ changes, but the core of it was ⁓ making it follow the rubrics of worship and making it for the full intergenerational congregation. And ⁓ soon enough we realized we had something that was entirely, you know, different and worth sharing with other congregations. And so that's when I started thinking about how to get living stories out there with you know, to share with other congregations and invite other preachers into
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  testing it out and sharing their own feedback. And over the past few years of doing that, ⁓ a lot has changed and developed and been refined as we've continued exploring it. Martha Tatarnic (22:48) Okay, so like you've worked with a number of different congregations. Like how many have you worked with? Peter Levenstrong (22:55) Sure. Yeah, ⁓ so I've I have a few ⁓ you know, this is all sort of on the side of my parish job, so I I haven't done as much keeping track of everything as I ⁓ could,
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  but my the latest numbers that I have is like there's a Google Doc that I share, you know, this is all the just free materials that it's a ministry of Saint Gregory, so preachers who wanna use this are welcome to request access to the Google Doc. And there's something like s hundred sixty preachers who have, you know, reached out and wanted to do that. Martha Tatarnic (23:02) Yeah. Peter Levenstrong (23:24) And then a year ago we put out a call for congregations who wanted to participate in ⁓
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  sort of longitudinal ongoing research with ⁓ living stories sermons and that was supported by some grant funding we had. And ⁓ Sarah Bentley Allred, who's at Virginia Theological Seminary, she ⁓ was she worked for us ⁓ and put together this research program. asked them a bunch of questions with ⁓ I believe it was fourteen different congregations ⁓ and we got a hundred twenty two participants from those fourteen congregations ⁓ to get a lot of information about what they were experiencing with
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  Living Stories. And that that's sort of the the research spine that undergirds the whole book that ⁓ is now, you know, soon going to be out there in in August. Martha Tatarnic (24:19) In August, yeah. So, maybe you can tease some of those findings, like what what are some of the interesting or surprising insights that you found from your research, the effect that this style of ⁓ of engaging with the word has on congregations and and on leaders too. I'm interested to hear that piece too. Peter
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  Levenstrong (24:26) Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, so one of the things that was most surprising to me that we weren't actually even prepared for or asking a question about. It just came up on its own was people sharing how this practice was so healing for them, for participants in these congregations, to feel trusted by the preacher enough to speak up during the liturgy. Was in and of itself a healing practice for them. ⁓ especially for people who had come from much more hierarchical churches ⁓
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  where they didn't feel like they had the right to, you know, even speak about scripture ⁓ without, you know, leaning on the pastor's authority and so on. so that was a a big surprise ⁓ that, you know, makes a lot of sense, but it it just ⁓ it wasn't on our radar until after this research. ⁓ and then two findings that really stood out also just because of how how much it showed how this was such a meaningful practice for those participating was the numbers of people who said that the the gospel
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  story stuck with them better and also that takeaways from the sermon stuck with them better after doing living stories. So the numbers were something like ⁓ let's see Martha Tatarnic (26:07) Right. Peter Levenstrong (26:15) Of the hundred twenty-two participants, more than fifty percent said the gospel story stays with them either more or much more than after a traditional sermon, and only five percent said less or much less. So the the leftover was just saying, you know, about the same. but
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  that's a huge difference between those who are experiencing it as a positive versus those saying a negative. And you're never gonna get never gonna make everybody happy. But ⁓ but that was a A big positive. And then another ⁓ question was that fifty percent said they were more likely to remember a takeaway days later versus thirteen percent less likely. So that's about a takeaway. The previous question was about remembering the gospel story itself. So for both ⁓ you know, biblical literacy and
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  remembering the gospel narratives and as well as the takeaways that apply it to their own lives. it means a lot for people to see the story enacted physically so they can you know, the the more senses we engage, the better the stories stick. ⁓ but then also hearing from I think a multiplicity of voices ⁓ increases here's my theory. I think hearing from a multiplicity of voices increases the likelihood that someone is going to find something that they want to hold on to for the rest of the week.
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  Martha Tatarnic (27:39) Mhm. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there are I'm an Anglican priest which is sister church of the Episcopal church. And, you know, there are definitely the stereotypes about Anglicans slash Episcopalians, including ⁓ low biblical literacy. So, there are just like a number of ways in which we what you're describing does I don't think that those assumptions are necessarily fair to be clear, but but there are those stereotypes out there Peter Levenstrong (27:49) Mm-hmm.
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  Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (28:15) And it's interesting the way that that seems to address some of ⁓ what what our church can be criticized for. yeah, what are so like what would be the steps, the resources that a parish would need in order to try this form of preaching? What does what does that look like to bring bring this into a a community? Peter Levenstrong (28:18) Sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I am doing ⁓ these workshops that are just introductory workshops every month or two. ⁓ and there
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  is a a Google form for people to sign up for these, you know, free hour long workshops where I talk about living stories and then we create a Living Story sermon together on Zoom, which is always a little bit less fun than in person, but it's what we can do. And then ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (29:11) Yeah. Peter Levenstrong (29:13) Yeah, and then we you know, ⁓ anybody who goes to that workshop is then signed up for the newsletter and the newsletter has it's just a once monthly ⁓ update on what's
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  going on in Living Stories Land. ⁓ and I I've never said that phrase before, Living Stories Land, but it felt right. ⁓ but it was ⁓ yeah. But it has a ⁓ has all the links to resources including Martha Tatarnic (29:30) Yeah. Could be a thing. Peter Levenstrong (29:42) the Google Doc that has the the stories for upcoming Sundays for people who are following the lectionary. And so and all of this is, you know, free stuff. ⁓ we're not trying to sell anything. This is a ministry of our church
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  because we have always been, you know it's always been part of our mission to to innovate liturgically and share our findings with the broader church. And so I would encourage anybody to join a workshop And then you'll get on the newsletter and you get a link to the the document that has scripts for upcoming Sundays. And those scripts, ⁓ I I should just say it's like there's scripture in that and then there's materials lists and some stage directions as you're enacting the story, and then some
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  wondering questions. I intentionally have this in a low tech Google Doc so that people can put it in a Word doc and edit it and adapt it to their own congregation. I have thought about putting it in a nicer looking ⁓ PDF, but then that wouldn't make it editable. And I want people like I it would be odd for me to say we should be trusting our parishioners and for me to not trust other preachers to know what's best for their Martha Tatarnic (30:44) Right. Peter Levenstrong (31:02) congregation
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  in their local context. So ⁓ I want it to be, you know, adaptable and editable. So ⁓ so people can take these scripts, adapt them, change the wondering questions, tweak them to whatever they think will work best for their congregation. But there is a bit of a a logic to it all and I go more into detail on all of that in the book, as you know, but ⁓ more than I can go into right now on the on air. Martha Tatarnic (31:30) Yeah, yeah, I think it's good to just give people a sense. I mean, I was
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  really thinking as I was reading the book about ⁓ my two main ministry contacts. So prior to Saint George's, I was at a smaller ⁓ a smaller church in Aurelia, and we had a Saturday night service in which we would do an interactive sermon. So it was a smaller, less formal service, and I would rather than prepare a sermon, I would, you know, prepare a little illustration and then some questions to get people engaged in some conversation. ⁓ The church that I'm in now is bigger and more formal, and
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  we live stream our service and the logistics of ⁓ an interactive service. sermon or you know a sermon that is similar to what you're describing, those logistics seem like like they would prevent being able to to do what you're talking about. So I'm just wondering like are there are there particular contexts that you think this kind of approach works better? Like smaller size versus bigger size? you know, lower tech versus higher tech? Like what what are are there things that people could take
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  away if they're in a context that doesn't necessarily lend itself to exactly this style of of sermon? Peter Levenstrong (33:21) Yeah, so I'll I'll just say I I have done this or a version of Living Stories with as many as two hundred people and as few as four. ⁓ so it is adaptable, but you really have to think about the the part that matters. And you know, the the the core of Living Stories is really the the wondering and getting people to collaborate together on Martha Tatarnic (33:29) Okay.
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  Okay. It's adaptable, okay. Peter Levenstrong (33:49) preaching and sharing the gospel with each other. ⁓ so the form that it takes when we do it Sunday after Sunday at our smaller 8 30 AM service is ⁓ much more conducive to a a smaller worship service, ⁓ more intergenerational ⁓ and you know, a variety of things ⁓ like that. But then when I was doing it at a conference with two hundred people Martha Tatarnic (33:51) Hm. Peter Levenstrong (34:19) what I did was I gave sort of an introductory
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  address and then had three different wondering questions that I gave to the whole room and invited people they were sitting in pews, I invited them to turn to the other people in their pew and wonder together about it. And I gave them a few minutes. And then when that time was up Martha Tatarnic (34:34) Right. Peter Levenstrong (34:48) I went down the central aisle inviting people sitting near the center to ⁓ share something that had arisen in their small group. And I, you know, was holding
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  the the traveling mic so they could speak into that. And then finally, we always end with a wondering question about where the good news is for you as you're reflecting on everything that has been discussed so far in the sermon. And and so then I turned that one o over to the whole ⁓ room and you know, I had people Martha Tatarnic (35:07) Mm. Peter Levenstrong (35:18) ⁓ I pointed to people and they called out and I repeated it into the microphone so the whole room could hear. And ⁓ and so you
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  can still get that the collaborative core of trusting the spirit to show up when you trust your speep your people to speak upon you know, speak on scripture in the event of worship. That all still happens. ⁓ but the ⁓ but yeah, we I I did ⁓ avoid using the you know, figures for storytelling 'cause that ⁓ the size that I have did does not work well for that large a space. I actually know of one congregation that built larger figures to be able to do living stories with a a congregation of over a
• 4:16
  hundred people. ⁓ so that was really fun to see. But there are different ways to adapt it for sure. Martha Tatarnic (35:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. No, that's really helpful. I mean, I have found ⁓ I found everything that you were describing quite exciting and and it did take me back to my previous congregation and how exciting the Saturday night service was because there was that although, you know, what we were doing there is quite different from what you're describing in many ways, ⁓ there was
• 4:20
  that that sense of not knowing exactly what people were going to say or what in sites would emerge. ⁓ I love how often you come back to that word trust and like the the layers to that trust, not just trusting your people but trusting God. ⁓ Trusting God to to show up in this space and to show up in in everyone not just the the person who has been ordained. ⁓ I think I think what I really what really Peter Levenstrong (36:55) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (37:12) struck me in reading ⁓ your
• 4:24
  descriptions is just how rich of a spiritual practice that would be, just to continually get to witness God at work in your community and and in these people around you. I I also really love the word cherish, which forms the third section of your book. And and I I felt I felt like I got drawn into your excitement about ⁓ what this kind of preaching, what this sermon style allows. Maybe you can just speak a bit to that to that word cherish. Like what what has become so important to you in this
• 4:28
  that you've ⁓ that you've written a book and drawn others in and done research. Peter Levenstrong (38:10) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well thank you. And I I I guess I mean I I do cherish Living Stories every week when we do it. It is just such a ⁓ rich surprise and ⁓ It feeds me. I mean, like back to the, you know, spiritual practices thing. You are right to name that. It it feeds me as a preacher in a way that laboring over a manuscript and then delivering it on Sunday, you know, that can be a a fruitful
• 4:32
  process, but the the experience of being surprised by the wisdom among your own parishioners who are there at worship with you, is is completely different and I find it to be so life-giving. ⁓ so so yeah, so that's been a a fabulous, really wonderful experience. ⁓ and I'm grateful to get to do that, you know, week after week. And then the actual section of that book, ⁓ Cherish, is about cherishing the worship settings that are so often overlooked, which typically Martha Tatarnic (39:09) Yeah.
• 4:36
  Peter Levenstrong (39:35) are places where Living Story sermons really thrive. so smaller, more intimate worship settings, intergenerational worship settings, ⁓ worship settings that are, you know, purpose built and or organized to welcome nuns and duns and people who are coming with, you know, big questions about faith and not even sure they belong in church. ⁓ and worship settings that are ⁓ going out of their way to be Martha Tatarnic (39:44) Mm-hmm. Mm. Peter Levenstrong (40:03) welcoming
• 4:40
  and supportive of neurodiverse in members of their congregations, ⁓ you know, to become a neurodiverse community at worship, I should say, neurodivergent members. and so that is a ⁓ these are all different settings which, you know, don't necessarily ⁓ ha overlap out in the wild, but they they overlap with living stories in a in a variety of ways and have a symbio symbiotic relationship, a sort of a win-win relationship. They you know living stories can ⁓ thrive better in these sort of
• 4:44
  congregations and worship settings, but also I think it is a true gift to these worship settings to take on a more collaborative approach to preaching like Living Stories. Martha Tatarnic (40:54) Yeah more more welcoming too, it seems like makes more room somehow. yeah, I I I found it striking just how many key issues both for the church and for the wider world that Peter Levenstrong (41:00) Sure. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (41:20) That these collaborative sermons seems to get at and ⁓ and
• 4:48
  provide that sort of healing space in response to. I I I think it's interesting that you note the nuns and duns and just kind of dis-ease distrust of institutional religion, how ⁓ how this can be a healing space in response to that, ⁓ how it can be a healing space. Peter Levenstrong (41:24) Hm. Martha Tatarnic (41:50) space in response to spiritual trauma, how it can be ⁓ a welcoming space to people who maybe have no religious context whatsoever, ⁓ as well as ⁓ providing a real alternative to
• 4:52
  the sort of online overload and the fear of AI and the rise of secularism that are ⁓ Peter Levenstrong (42:17) Sure. Martha Tatarnic (42:20) all dynamics that are so at work in our world and that of course impact our Christian communities to a large extent. What do you think are the most urgent ⁓ needs being addressed by collaborative sermons? Peter Levenstrong (42:42) Well, so I'm at a parish in San Francisco. ⁓ we have, you know, people in the tech and AI space in our congregation. and, you
• 4:56
  know, some employees from the AI labs themselves worship among us and AI has been something that I've been really fascinated by, and exploring what that means for ministry. I think ⁓ that that churches need to shift towards being something of an analogue haven for parishioners at worship, ⁓ where Martha Tatarnic (43:23) An analog haven. I love that phrase. I think you could. Peter Levenstrong (43:26) Yeah, I mean I people are hungry for the the face to face human interaction and the
• 5:00
  communion that you get when you're ⁓ when you're welcoming each other, ⁓ everybody, you know, taking part in that active welcoming of each other into the web of human relationships that you can find in church at its best. and so, you know, I I think it's Martha Tatarnic (43:31) Mm. Mm-hmm. Peter Levenstrong (43:54) Yeah, I think churches are uniquely positioned to create something of that that analogue haven experience for people who are you know, i we don't have to say that ⁓ the algorithm
• 5:04
  is bad. I I personally, you know, think we need to take a very discerning approach towards our use of technology without ⁓ outright banning any particular technology. But I I do think that the experience of church Martha Tatarnic (44:18) Mm-hmm. Peter Levenstrong (44:25) and of worship. is richer when it is reaching us in all the ways that God has always met us through all our different senses and through embodied ⁓ presence with each other. And and that's not to ⁓ you know, disregard
• 5:08
  digital ministries, but I I do think that, you know, just as my experience of you on this screen is less than, you know, an in-person conversation. ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (45:01) Yeah, of course. Peter Levenstrong (45:02) you know, digital technology is a wonderful thing 'cause we have we can have this conversation, ⁓ but ⁓ it's not quite the same as being in person. I I think worship, ⁓ for those of us who can, you know, and who have in person communities where we are welcomed and ⁓ can thrive,
• 5:12
  then I think it's a really wonderful thing t f to strive for it to be an analogue haven all. Martha Tatarnic (45:26) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you can see how that is going to become more and more important. the church really can respond to the world's deepest need. so it's exciting. It's what you're doing is really exciting. thank you so much for for writing this book. Thank you for taking the time to talk about it today. Is there anything else that you want to share with our community about
• 5:16
  collaborative preaching and why or collaborative sermons and why why people might Peter Levenstrong (45:42) For sure. Martha Tatarnic (46:06) want to give it a try. Peter Levenstrong (46:07) Sure. Yeah, I think I'll just say as a you know, final word that the book is really doing two things. It is both advocating for more collaborative approaches to preaching in general and offering living story sermons as one particular way of doing that. There are other collaborative preaching methods out
• 5:20
  there. ⁓ and you know, and it in my personal experience has told me the more collaborative the better. ⁓ but the but there are many different ways of doing it. so I I'm super excited about ⁓ you know, there's Doug Pageett who's written about his progressional dialogue. There's ⁓ John McClure who's written about, you know, Roundtable Pulpit, Shauna Hammond, these are all other leaders in the collaborative preaching space who I, you know, mention in the book as well, who I'm sort of, you know,
• 5:24
  chasing their coattails. talking about different ways of being more collaborative in our ministry together. They're ⁓ and they've been doing this work for a long time. So I wanna, you know, thank them and lift up their names as well. Martha Tatarnic (47:17) Yeah, thank you for that and and thank you for thank you for providing this this insight and opportunity and consideration. I think it's really exciting and I hope that people will check out the book and check out ⁓ how they can get
• 5:28
  involved with it. So thank you. We're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna come back for some closing questions. Peter Levenstrong (47:41) Awesome. Cool. Martha Tatarnic (47:49) Are you good for just rolling with the closing questions? You you don't need a break? Okay. Peter Levenstrong (47:54) Sure. Sounds good. Yeah, no. Martha Tatarnic (48:00) Welcome back to Feature Christian. We are here. I'm here with Peter Levenstrong And we are going to do some closing questions. So we always tell
• 5:32
  our guests, Peter, that you are allowed to take these questions as seriously or not as you wish. so it's up to you. If you were Pope for a day, what would be the top priority for those twenty-four hours? Peter Levenstrong (48:32) Well, I I knew this question was likely coming and I so I feel like as an Episcopalian, you know, the obvious answers are that, you know, women's ordination and full affirmation of LGBTQ people in, you know, the church. ⁓ a particular answer that I can give based on,
• 5:36
  you know, my experience and living stories, is that Martha Tatarnic (48:36) Ha. Peter Levenstrong (49:02) I think for all the preachers out there who are, you know, laboring over their sermons, trying to make sure they have just the right things to say, maybe late on Saturday night and the clock is ticking and they're stressed and having ⁓ I think Jesus would just say, like, fear not, right? I mean Martha Tatarnic (49:18) Can't relate at all. ⁓ Yeah, being there. Mm. Peter Levenstrong
• 5:40
  (49:31) Trust that I'll be there, that my spirit will be there among you all. And maybe you can't th the words aren't quite coming to you, the ⁓ you got that writer's block and just trust that the spirit will show up and so maybe come up with a wondering question and see what your how your congregation responds and maybe they will be the mouthpiece through whom the spirit speaks. the the words that need to be said on Sunday morning. ⁓ so yeah, fear not and trust. Martha Tatarnic (50:04) Yeah,
• 5:44
  yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I I think we all need to be reminded of that, ⁓ as preachers because it is easy to take on the weight of the world in terms of ⁓ opening the word for people. And that that trust peace I think is so essential regardless of what kind of style of preaching you're gonna be doing. So yeah, thank you for that. What theological or historical Christian figure would you want to meet, bring back to life, have a meal with? Peter Levenstrong (50:42) Well, I never got to meet
• 5:48
  Jerome Berryman, who, you know, created Godly Play. he died a few years ago, ⁓ just as things with Living Stories were getting started and I would have loved to to meet him and talk with him and ask him a bunch of questions. so yeah. Martha Tatarnic (51:03) Okay, that's a a good answer, it seems on brand as well. What will history remember from our current time and place? Peter Levenstrong (51:08) Mm-hmm. I think it's not too much of a stretch to think that the digital revolution writ large
• 5:52
  is going to have at least an impact at least as big an impact on the church as the printing press did. Martha Tatarnic (51:29) Hm, yeah. Peter Levenstrong (51:32) And so I think that the church of the future is going to look very, very different from how we all ⁓ grew up imagining church to be and seeing, you know, in the world around us. So yeah, so I just think that there's ⁓ our time is a time of huge transition and ⁓ we need to be thinking creatively about how to respond Martha Tatarnic
• 5:56
  (51:43) Yeah, I mean that is really a consideration that Peter Levenstrong (51:59) to the digitization of the world all around us. Martha Tatarnic (52:06) Yeah, I I think that that is ⁓ I just published a book about Anne Bolin and the English Reformation. So the ⁓ the effects of the printing press and the cataclysmic change that that wielded for the whole world and for the church at the center of it is always top of mind for me and we've had numerous guests that have pointed out you know,
• 6:00
  that we're kind of talking about an even greater Peter Levenstrong (52:14) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (52:37) communication revolution going on right now. So yeah, good good to name that. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity? Peter Levenstrong (52:41) Sure. Yeah. man. Well I think that The future of Christianity might not look like resurgence to being the dominant religion in a handful of Western countries, but instead look like ⁓ becoming salt, which is sprinkled all
• 6:04
  throughout. and not, you know, ⁓ when you're eating a dish, you don't notice the salt. So in any one place you might not notice the Christians. But the Christians are there and I think make the whole dish Martha Tatarnic (53:32) Mm. Peter Levenstrong (53:43) mixing metaphors here, but, you know, the whole dish more ⁓ delightful or tasty, I guess. ⁓ an so I think that's a a vision that Jesus offers us for the Christians to be sprinkled throughout all nations, you know, if we think about what
• 6:08
  it means for to be to make disciples of all nations, ⁓ I don't think Jesus said that Martha Tatarnic (53:51) Yeah. Peter Levenstrong (54:09) every nation around the world should be a hundred percent Christian, but there are disciples in all nations. Salt sprinkled all throughout, ⁓ is a something that I aspire for. Martha Tatarnic (54:17) Hmm. Yeah, that seems like a great parable and a great image. And yeah that's a great hope that we could make life more delightful and flavorful. Good
• 6:12
  goals. Where can people find out more about you? Peter Levenstrong (54:44) Sure, yeah. So Livingstories Sermons dot org is the website for Living Stories. And my parish is Saint Gregory's it's S T Gregories dot no, sorry, S-A-I-N-T. Got that wrong. S-A-I-N-T Gregories.org. and I also write a substack ⁓ thinking about the the human part of ministry in a ever more digital and AI world. So you can find me writing there at the humanpart dot substack.com. Martha Tatarnic (55:20) Okay, well thank
• 6:16
  you Peter and it was great to meet you and great to hear about the work that you're doing and ⁓ I really appreciate your time today. We always end with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you always. Peter Levenstrong (55:36) Thank you. And to you.