Latest / In The Business of Humans / Keen presents: Burning Questions (Unwritten Rules of Work, PTO + Professional Etiquette)

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Keen presents: Burning Questions (Unwritten Rules of Work, PTO + Professional Etiquette) · In The Business of Humans

• CX Joe: What do you get when you take a former manager plus report combo, who are now real life friends? One a management coach and sudden viral internet star who shoots from the hip, and the other a CX exec turned advisor who overthinks everything. This podcast. Welcome to the business of humans. I'm Joe, founder of CX Joe Advisory and the Overthinker. My partner in crime is Lynda She's the founder of Leveled Up Leadership and the Internet Star. Join us as we talk about business, relationships, humanity. Success and also failure, through the lens of friendship, heaps of radical transparency and honesty, and zero BS. Lynda Harvey: This episode is brought to you by Keen. If you've ever looked into companies like Deal or Remote because you wanted to hire internationally, you've probably realized something. They make it easier to employ people around the world, yes. But they don't actually help you build the team. That's why I like what Keen is doing. They combine the infrastructure. Of an employer of record with specialized global talent, helping companies build customer experience, creative marketing, and operations teams that feel like the true extension of your business. Now, let's jump into today's episode. Hi Joe. CX Joe: Hello Lynda, how's it going? Lynda Harvey: it's always a day. But things are good. Things are good. I had family pictures last night. yeah, I have a family. It's weird. So I had to doc I had to document it. CX Joe: Ooh, family pictures. I'm so in the mindset of having young kids and then they have their picture day at school, and we sometimes remember to dress them up and sometimes don't, and then are just like not even doing the family picture thing right now. Just kind of said we should do that. So you're talking. You know what I picture, Lynda, from when I was younger? I think my parents Lynda Harvey: Tell me. CX Joe: once or twice took me to took all of us five kids. to the local Macy's or it was Lynda Harvey: So Sears. CX Joe: called like A and S or C S years before that and we would pose in a and and the whole thing and somebody was like touching up my hair, some nice Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: lady and she's like, Yo, you're cute. Is is it does it still work like that? Lynda Harvey: Some places it's still, I mean, Sears still exists. JCPenney, I don't actually think CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: Sears still exists, but JC Penny still does pictures like that. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: we we did we went to this place. We we actually went there probably like six or seven years ago. And so we went to the same studio. And they it's it's an interesting studio because they do inside pictures. in an actual studio, but then they do outside pictures as well. And so it's in a downtown CX Joe: Cool. Lynda Harvey: setting. So we could get some of the downtown landscape. and it's just it's kind of like hiring a just a personal photographer at a much lower cost. And they just kind of walk around and they take your picture and they pos and they do the things. So yes and no to that. But yes, I was thinking, yeah. CX Joe: That sounds way better. I like that whole downtown outside vibe. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, it's it's lots of fun. and then, I've got somebody my my son is gonna graduate high school this year, which is bonkers. And I'm gonna have to do it again CX Joe: It is bonkers. Lynda Harvey: for him so he can get his his, you know, fabulous like senior portraits, whatever. Apparently people do that. I got I also CX Joe: Ha ha ha. Lynda Harvey: just had school pictures and that was my senior picture. CX Joe: Okay, that's amazing. And these family pictures, this is going to end up on a holiday card potentially. Lynda Harvey: It is, it is. And so fortunately I have your address, so you will be receiving one this year. And CX Joe: Banking on it. Lynda Harvey: I will be listing my height on the back of the holiday card. You know, some te people like to give you like a family update and I'm not doing any of those things. All I'm listing is my height so people understand that I am not short. CX Joe: I am confounded. you know, probably if if the video version of our podcast was more popular, it could like hone in on my amazement right now. You're telling me, so I'm on the list and one day in December, I'm going to get a card. It's gonna be really beautiful, one or more photos. I'm gonna flip it over and it's gonna say, like, just just like Lynda five foot something. And Lynda Harvey: Just for the record. Yeah. Just for the record, Lynda's five eight. No, no, just me. I just yeah. CX Joe: Will it list it for everybody in the family or just you? It will just say Lynda 5 8. That is amazing. Lynda Harvey: I also think I should wait until March because everybody gets pictures, they get the holiday updates, and it's just like, wouldn't it be nice to go to your mailbox in March and you just get some random happy CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: March? CX Joe: That that combined with the height, I think would really take the cake. It would it would sort of like neither make sense, but if it was both, like the height and march, it would kind of make perfect sense. It's just like Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: Lynda and family march to the beat of their own drums. So this makes absolute sense. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. And it would like happy March madness. I don't know. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: why do we need to wait till the holidays to send out random pictures of our family and updates about our height? So CX Joe: That's true, especially because in around December. And then ours ended up being a New Year's card, which happened Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: organically because we were always running late. And then we would always be stressed. And we're like, this is embarrassing. It's gonna come January fifth. No, mind you, not like March or June. But we thought that was super late. And then we realized, we could just make it a a New Year's card. And then it seems like somewhat intentional. But, generally there's so many cards coming in at that time. And then you have Depending how many friends and family members you have, but you have five or ten or thirty cards and it's just hard to value all of them. But if you send yours in March or June, like you'll be the only one. You'll get tons of attention. You'll probably got much more refrigerator real estate doing it another month. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Right. So, you know, it might go out in in December, it might go out in March. Who knows? You know, it might just show up in like whenever and it'll just be like, how nice. Isn't this nice? We just got an update. CX Joe: Yeah. Another thing that you could do, because I'm in the mindset, when I was younger, I collected baseball and basketball cards and now Kai is really into Pokemon cards. Even though Pokemon Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. CX Joe: allegedly don't really exist, we're not sure and don't tell Kai, but they they have stats on the back, just like the baseball and basketball cards. It's like height and weight and superpowers. So you could just really run with this concept and it could be like Lynda and then it's like height, weight, hometown. some stat, some stat from the year that's similar to home runs in the baseball season and just go with Lynda Harvey: Maybe. CX Joe: that. Lynda Harvey: Maybe. Or just I I'm only listing my height because you don't understand. I now look like a twerp in my family. I've got a f a 14-year-old daughter who is my height. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: they they said yesterday she's taller than me. And I tend to like lean a little in my picture. So she's gonna look probably substantially taller than me. My son is taller than both my CX Joe: Mm. Because you lean. Lynda Harvey: yeah, because I lean, leaning. My husband is six one. My son is almost six two. So I look like a twerp. And I have always kind of been proud that I am I am tall, right? And so CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I just want to I want the record to show that I am not a twerp. That's all. CX Joe: Gotcha. That that makes sense. I feel like as per the norm, the underlying context or explanation for listening or height was just completely over my head and I put no effort into understanding it, but I had a lot of fun running with that for a while. So thank you for that. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. I just it's just important to me. I don't know why I don't know why it's so important to me, but it is and I just want the record to be set straight. CX Joe: J just yeah, the rec the record out there should be Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: straight. Lynda Harvey: The holiday record is that I just need everybody to know that I'm five eight. CX Joe: It's yeah. I had Lynda one time I was talking to one of my older brothers. This was years ago, but it was kind of a traumatic experience for me. We were having a conversation and you know, we were we were diving this into some stuff. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: So it was you know, it was like a complex conversation to work through. And then I uttered the words for the record. I said, For the record, I just wanna, you know, say that it really happened more this way. And he exploded at me. He was like, for the record, for the record? what record? We're worried about the record right now. He just Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah. CX Joe: went ballistic about it. And I can never hear those words again the rest of my life without remembering that moment. I was pacing outside Lynda Harvey: That's funny. CX Joe: of a 7-Eleven talking to him. And it was hard because not only was the conversation difficult, but all I wanted to do is go into the 7-Eleven, get a big gulp. And some snacks. It was Lynda Harvey: Right? CX Joe: just pacing, just pacing and waiting. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, and a delicious like chocolate covered donut. CX Joe: That would be great. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Do you ever wonder why all seven elevens smell the same? CX Joe: No I Lynda Harvey: I just I just wonder why they all like CX Joe: I would imagine it's 'cause they all carry the same foods, I don't know. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, but not every building smells the same. And why do and and the and the smell lingers. It like it it like sticks to you. CX Joe: I feel okay. I mean this could have to do on one hand with how long the whatchamacallits, taquitos and you know, hot dogs and everything have Lynda Harvey: Hm. Yeah, the rollers. Yeah. CX Joe: been rolling. Like is it are they from that day or are they from the last March when you sent your holiday card? Nobody knows. Lynda Harvey: Nobody knows. Yeah. CX Joe: but I feel like you also might be alluding to the odor of the people in the store. I d I don't know what's going on, but interesting. Lynda Harvey: No, it's the whole store and the whole store lingers and it's has smelled the same. Their food has evolved, right? They've they used to just be hot dogs and and then it was taquitos. Don't CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: ask me why I have such intimate knowledge of the food map of like 7-Eleven, but then CX Joe: I could tell this is the tip of the iceberg. Yep. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: it was like pizza, and then it was wings, and then it was like mini tacos. And so the thing is is like the foods evolved, and yet they all have smelt the same, as long as I can remember. CX Joe: Okay. Lynda Harvey: And it's still like you you go into a seven eleven for four and a half minutes, tops, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And you walk out and you smell like a seven eleven for CX Joe: Mm, interesting. Lynda Harvey: like you have to it's like going to Benny Hana. After you go into seven eleven, you gotta go home and wash your clothes. Like there is just no getting rid of that. It lingers. CX Joe: Yeah. That most things in life reminds me of Dunkin' Donuts. I could tell you Lynda Harvey: Mm. CX Joe: when I left the Dunkin' Donuts after my shifts at age fourteen through sixteen or so, I smelled like coffee and donuts for a long time. I mean, really deep cleaning, scrubbing is required. And while Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: we're on the topic, have we talked about why all the stores are called seven eleven? Old trivia. Do you know the answer? Lynda Harvey: I I believe it's I knew it at some point in time. I it had something to do with their opening hours. I thought. I thought it had CX Joe: That's exactly right. Yep. Lynda Harvey: something to do with like it's open eleven hours seven days a week or something like that, but I I don't know. Tell me. CX Joe: It's in that direction. I just heard this on a podcast recently. When they opened and maybe started to expand the chain, it was a big deal. It was a big bragging point. They were open from seven a.m. to eleven PM uniformly. Lynda Harvey: Okay. CX Joe: now a lot of the stores are open twenty four seven or some other hours, but the tradition continues. which I find stuff like that interesting because I so when I was growing up and younger, but I still feel like my brain works like this a little bit. It's just like it was ordained that it's called seven eleven. the world Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: started and there it was, seven eleven. even Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: it having an explanation of the name was surprising to me because it just was always the way it was. Yeah. Yeah. Which Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah, I feel that. I feel that. Yeah. I and I really like the purposeful the purposefulness of the name. Like CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: there's there's no like it's not like guessing why is it called Bucky's? Why is it called circ like cir it's like it's our operating hours. Boom. Yeah. CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. There it is. I have I have one more story for story time. And then I'm Lynda Harvey: Amazing. CX Joe: a feeling you'll say we should get started unless you have more stories. My last story is I was riding with Hudson the other day. As a reminder for any listeners, Hudson's four, almost five. Really curious, rambunctious little child. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: And he started talking to me about when God created the earth, which was Lynda Harvey: Mm. CX Joe: really interesting. Just Interesting topic to bring up, lots of thoughts going through my mind. It's probably because he started religious school in the last year or so. So that's probably what it was. So he was just kind of walking me through all these factoids. And then he asked me, How how did God create God? And if God didn't create God, then how is he God? And I'm just driving along. I'm like, wow, this kid's really putting me through the ringer today. So I decided to flip it on him. And I asked him a question. It was like something like, Well, so Hudson, what do you say? What? So who what do you think, when God first created the earth, what was there? And he thought about it and he said, construction workers. And I said, why? Lynda Harvey: Amazing. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: And he said, Well, you know, because they they're there to build everything. So it was like, Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: God is omnipotent, he's creating everything, but he also was reliant on this. Team of construction workers who preceded him and were just kind of like already building everything. So it was it was a nice partnership. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. And I feel like maybe the construction workers were the ones who assembled. Do you feel like maybe it was like I mean we could we could unpack this for days, but like well it was an accidental. They like they left somebody in the oven for too long and then it was God. CX Joe: I don't I know. Yeah, I don't know. And then he started asking me about the mechanics of God creating blood and and containing the blood with the skin and we were just like really getting into it with the skin. It was a really interesting car. It was cool. I didn't mind it when it was over though. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, they get more and more interesting as as as as you get older. And the I I I'm sure somebody would really enjoy some of the car conversations I've had with my children. Yeah. Good. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. I could also only imagine you as a child in the car that you asked some interesting questions and made some interesting observations. Okay. Okay. Got it. Okay, good. Lynda Harvey: No, I was mostly car sick in the car. I like I slept in the car and I was mostly car sick in the car, but we do have really good chats in in the car with my children. It's because they have to kind of it's forced proximity and they kind of have to like listen. But similarly CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: to you, like when they were small, we would have kind of these questions. And I do have a lot of religious conversations with my daughter in the car. CX Joe: Hmm. Interesting. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: There's a lot to unpack there or ask you about. If only if only Lynda Harvey: yeah. so many things. CX Joe: that was the plan for today's episode. Lynda Harvey: Honestly, 'cause we we keep religion not at work, but I mean, I think that the two of us could probably go back and unpack a lot of things about our different religious upbringings. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The beginning of a of a good bar joke. What do you get when a former Mormon Mormon Lynda Harvey: yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: and Reformed Jew walk into a bar and start Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: a podcast at the bar. Or not at the bar, but Yeah. Apparently. Lynda Harvey: Long-winded conversations. That's what you get. so I'm excited for today's episode because it's a little different. I'm hoping it's a little bit lighter. I think some of our topics tend to get a little heavy. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and you know, there's always opportunity for that. But today we decided to kind of take some burning questions that have been asked through our audiences, through past employees, through previous experiences. and I think some interesting topics, some some ways to address some of these things with with employees. So CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I'm excited to kind of go back and forth on this and and see how see how today's episode plays out. CX Joe: I want to take a minute to thank our sponsor, Keen. One thing we talk about a lot on this podcast is that great customer experiences don't happen by accident. They happen because great people are behind them. But building those teams globally can feel overwhelming. Maybe you've looked at Deal, Remote, or another employer of record. Those platforms solve the legal side of hiring. Keen goes a step further. They help companies build dedicated customer experience, digital, creative, and operations teams. While handling the global employment infrastructure behind the scenes, whether you're making your first international hire or building a team of 100, Keen gives you the ability to scale without opening entities or managing the complexity yourself. I love the way they describe it. Hiring globally is easy. Building globally is hard. That's what Keen was built for. Learn more at KeentoHire dot com. And by the way, I know the founders, Jake and Martin. They're phenomenal people and they'll be great consultants to your business and give you an awesome world class experience. Check out at keen2hire.com. Let's do it. Let's see how it goes. Lynda Harvey: Amazing. Amazing. so Joe, do you wanna do you wanna kick us off with the first question? CX Joe: Yeah, that sounds great. So these are some fantastic questions from the community. They're either all is this accurate, Lynda, like verbatim, or if anything, based on several questions maybe you've gotten from the community. Lynda Harvey: yeah, it's a combination of many things and experiences CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: that people have shared through their CX Joe: Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: journeys. CX Joe: Love it. Love it. Okay. Well let's start out with this one. It's as good and fun as any other. yeah, I'm gonna start with with this one. The guy next to me always clips his nails at his desk. How can I tell him to stop? Can I tell him to stop? Lynda Harvey: Ew CX Joe: Lynda. See, I chose that one so that you'd go first. Lynda Harvey: That is so gross. That is so gross. okay, so here's the thing: gross. I think you can tell them to stop. And Joe, like, I would love for you to weigh in on this, but here's the thing: like we get, I think sometimes we get super comfortable at work because we spend so much of our lives there, right? But CX Joe: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I do think that there's certain like common courtesies, like Don't cook fish in the microwave out where in fact I actually, and this is probably a hot topic, I don't think offices should provide microwaves at all. I just don't think that they should do it. at all. I think they need to go. CX Joe: Hmm, I don't know. That's a bit troubling. Someone who likes my cold food cold, my hot food hot. That's troubling, Lynda. Lynda Harvey: I I get it and I understand, but also we would stop all of the burnt popcorn at work, right? I actually worked someplace where somebody started a fire. It was when clear back when I worked at Verizon, somebody started a fire in the microwave because they cooked their burrito too long. CX Joe: yeah, that's n that's not good. Do I never had a microwave Lynda Harvey: And the building CX Joe: growing up, so I didn't know the rules. And then so Lynda Harvey: How CX Joe: this is my life dream of mentioning Dungan Donuts and Applebee's in one episode. But later after Dungan Donuts, when I was working at Applebee's, a customer wanted their riblet platter heated up, which also is a good excuse to mention the word riblet. That's an Applebee's Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: invented word, I think. So I was heating up the riblet platter and it was in tinfoil. aluminum foil and I popped it in the microwave. And Lynda Harvey: No. CX Joe: I started a fire and the GM screamed louder than I've ever heard him scream. And it was I'll paraphrase here, but it was like, what effing idiot put the effing tinfoil in the microwave? Just picture sixteen year old me just feebly raising my hand. Yep, that was me. No good. Not a good thing. We didn't have one growing up. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So i in general I think people get too comfortable. And again, that's my like I don't think any microwave and I'm a fan of like warm food warm, cold food cold. Full support there, right? If you want warm food, go get it fresh. Right? Just go get it fresh. Go get it fresh. CX Joe: Thought you were gonna say tough nuggies. Lynda Harvey: I I'm I'm reverting CX Joe: Don't work here. Lynda Harvey: back to grade school rules here. if it's in your lunch and you either you're gonna eat it at room temperature or like not at all, right? but CX Joe: Right. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I just think in general, no microwaves. But back to the clipping of fingernails. so I tend to be a very direct person. I know that that's a big shock to anyone who's listening. CX Joe: Yeah. Absolutely. Lynda Harvey: I would absolutely tell the person CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: cut it out. That's gross. Go to the bathroom. if you CX Joe: Cut it out. I see what you did there. Lynda Harvey: cut it out. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: but if you're just stop. This is this isn't an appropriate place for you to sit and trim your fingernails. That's disgusting. Like CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: i we're at work. Like no. Cut it out. So yes, I think you can tell the person to and you notice it she does call out that it's a his nails. And I'm like CX Joe: Ha ha. Lynda Harvey: Gross. Go, go do this. Go take care of it someplace else. Yeah. CX Joe: especially, especially bad in that case. And yeah, and the person says, Can I tell them to stop? absolutely. And I think to compliment your perspective, Lynda, first you you could either tell the person to stop, or if this company has some HR people person, you could tell them too. But Lynda and I have always made this point and we're very aligned on this, is most ideal by far is just talking to the person directly, even if it's icky or awkward. When you talk to colleagues directly, it's just always best for building the relationship. But if you're actually really too terrified or it feels too icky or awkward, you could always make a complaint. But then you're gonna be seen as a tattle. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, snitches, those those guys get stitches. So in general, I think like tell them to stop. And if they don't respect CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: that, if they're if they're just a horrible person and they're like, whatever, then you're gonna have to learn how to manage the situation. As soon as you hear the clipping, get up and walk away. Like get up CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and and just go find a new place to be. How long can it take for somebody to clip their nails? Probably five minutes. Go take a lap, go fill up your water, go not microwave your food. go do those things. CX Joe: Don't microwave those tinfoiled riblets. But if you get back from doing that and the whole pile of the clippings has just flown and landed right at your workstation, I mean, then you're gonna need a new game plan. Lynda Harvey: I listen, I would start I th that's when we get desk wars. They have CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: to be straight up desk wars. I would start hiding like bologna in their desk. I'm like I'm ruthless. CX Joe: Great. Lynda Harvey: okay. so this is one, and I think we've probably experienced this both in our in our professions, right? Both CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: we make no bones about the fact that we've come up through customer support and customer support has got some very interesting kind of scheduling rules. So I thought CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: this one was really kind of applicable. So I've already booked my flight and hotel non-refundable, but CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I can't get my PTO approved. So they've denied your PTO, they won't approve your PTO. What should I do? CX Joe: Yeah. So, you know, Lynda, I think this is exactly the kind of question where the side of me that was a manager, a boss, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and despite being incredibly empathetic, you know, and I've gotten good, consistent feedback throughout my career. Now I'm just CX Joe advisor guy. So I get to be warm and mushy and fuzzy with everybody. But no, I think the other side of me will come out on this ans on this question. I mean, I Generally speaking, booking non-refundable flights and hotels before you've consulted with work and got your BTO approved, either gotten it actively approved or depending what your workplaces policies are for PTO, at the bare minimum, sort of confirm that no approval is really required. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: you know, like some workplaces, and if it's, I don't know, four months away and you have that sort of flexible policy and you're like, well, there's just no way they could. Deny this and I'll book it because it's a great deal and I'll tell them tomorrow. Yeah, I guess it's like an edge case. But for the most part, you don't wanna do that. So I mean, I think it's just I think it's kind of a life and career lesson. And so as for what you should do, I wouldn't be the most helpful person because I'd say you have to choose between options like not going and eating the money or going and risking losing your job. I mean, you could also Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and just ask for a one-off exception and be contrite and say it'll never happen again. But if the point is that all of that sort of happened already, yet you're gonna have to eat it or potentially work somewhere else. And you take it as an L and a life learning. And I've had so many of those, and not just when I was younger, probably yesterday or the day before, you know, sometimes we just kind of take an L and this might be one of those times. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. I I completely agree with you. So again, for for people who are listening, you and I have got such a different experience of the workforce, right? Because Especially when you come up in CX, it's kinda like the post office. it never stops. Like the contacts keep coming, the emails keep coming. It is, it is definitely like the post office. And, you know, there's seasonality. Most most organizations have seasonality. So it's not like you're working in copy, right? Well, and and you know, I don't know I don't know the pressures on copy. So if if there are copywriters out there who are listening and they're like, you don't understand the pressures of copy, I CX Joe: I don't want that to be fuming. Lynda Harvey: I stand corrected. But when we have things like we're facing a holiday season, and everybody wants to have the long Thanksgiving holiday, and everybody wants that, but we are forced to staff for those holidays, for those situations. And we have to have a minimum staff requirement, which happens so much in this industry where you have to have a minimum staff. And yes. The business is not going to do well if we don't have people to take the customer phone calls or emails or text messages or whatever they're communicating with. So I CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: agree. Like, number one, you need, don't book something. I get that it's a great deal. And yes, there's probably a risk of going like, I'm never going to see flights to Tokyo for $600 again. So I booked it. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: But there is a risk that you're taking when you're committing to something and not. clearing it. So I think it's really important, number one, to know your industry. know your CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: industry, know your company, know your team and know your company's policies for how you're allowed to use your vacation time. Because it is a privilege, not a right. Like in the United States, there is no, there, there is no requirement for creating, there, there's no requirement for giving you time off or allowing you to have time CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: off. it's not like I have a lot of clients in Europe and they're like, it's mandatory and we have to take it. It's not like that in the States, right? So CX Joe: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: it's really important for you to know your policies and your company and understand your your function and your team's function. and so, you know, maybe you're never going to experience this when you're in marketing and we're in the off season and nothing's happening and we're not building a pipeline and we're not doing those things. Maybe it's going to be a non-issue, but understanding your team and your placement on your team. And then I agree, you either eat the cost, which more often than not people are unwilling to do, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: or you go anyway. Or my favorite's when they call out sick. And I'm like, do you think I'm dumb? Like CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: we didn't approve the PTO, but suddenly you're sick on those same days that you were going to Maui. That's so weird, right? CX Joe: Right. And stuff like that, using your four remaining sick days and then the one personal day for the exact week where you were refused PTO. Just go into that situation knowing that you're torching your trust and your goodwill with your manager. So if that's something you're doing eyes wide open and you're like, that's what it's gotten to, and I'm job searching and I'm going to Maui, bless you. I don't think either of us are saying we necessarily look down on that. Just know, always go into a situation eyes wide open. as to the ramifications. So yes, when you take that approach, you're kind of torching it. Even like this, this is a little bit less severe, but I was remembering a couple of times early in my career where somebody would request PTO. I'd explain why it was being declined. And to your point, it could have been something really specific around seasonality, the exact role they were in. Could you please take that trip a week before, a week after it'd mean a lot to the company. Well, it's booked already. well, why did you Ask. Like I had a choice then. Or sometimes it would be something like, Well, my mom booked this cruise already. You know, she didn't even ask me first. And that could very well be the case. But Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: just keep in mind that, you know, positioning yourself that way to your boss, your reputation is taking a blow, right? It's hard to then come back from that trip and say, Hey, I want a promotion or I want to always be treated like a full adult because you just blamed. your mom for why you had to go on the cruise and so it was just it was a choice that you made. Lynda Harvey: And I think the bigger conversation here and and one that, you know, I I spend a lot of my time, a lot of my time, talking about like how corporations are broken, right? Like I and I'm really I'm hoping that through my conversations that I'm having, I'm helping them fix somewhere. I'm helping them fix kind of the break, or we're seeing kind of the unjustness of CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: the overlords. And and the minions, right? I'm hoping that we can find a little bit more balance. But at the end of the day, there still is very much a power imbalance. And the power imbalance is your job provides you with a living, right? Your job, well, hopefully, your job provides you with a paycheck, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And at the end of the day, they can choose to not provide you with a paycheck or provide you with a paycheck. And so when you come to your boss and you're just like, well, it's already booked. The end of the day, your boss is also getting a paycheck, and they have to, at some point in time, tow certain company lines. And that is the unpleasant truth of it. But CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: they are paid, your boss is then paid to protect that company line. And so now we're CX Joe: Mm. Yep, it's a good point too. Lynda Harvey: on, we're now we're on opposite sides. And although CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: as a human, I'm like, no, I don't want you to lose thousands of dollars. No, I don't want you to miss out on this thing. However, there are still business needs. That I have to meet. And you are now creating a space for me where I can't meet these business needs because of X, Y, and Z. And then it's it's totally up to you. And no, they can't stop you from taking your vacation, but they're gonna know if you're lying and they're gonna know if you're if you're violating the thing. So. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Well said, partner. Lynda Harvey: Thanks. What's next on the list, Joe? CX Joe: So Lynda I'm throwing all the fun ones at you. We have a lunch thief at my office. Can I prank them to teach them a lesson? Lynda Harvey: Short answer yes, do it. CX Joe: That's so funny because I would have said short answer no. Lynda Harvey: I'm like, yeah, do it. I would do it. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I would have exploding glitter bombs. And I would put things in like fancy. I have obviously been like the victim of a lunch thief before. And man, it was my favorite thing too. It's Einstein's back when I used to eat at Einstein's. I don't eat there anymore. But that was my food job that also I couldn't get the smell off my clothes, by the by. but the yeah, it's we we're CX Joe: Okay. That's a bagels place? Is that a bagel place? Yep. Sandwiches bagels. Lynda Harvey: we're being fast and loose with the word bagel. CX Joe: Yeah, I got you. Lynda Harvey: just fast and loose, but it's fine. so I worked at I this I didn't work at Einstein's bagels at the time, but they had a bagel dog. And I'm like pretty much on board if if a hot dog's involved, like I'm probably gonna eat the food, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: right? So they had a bagel dog and it was my favorite thing. And it was lovely because the hot dog was all beef. So, you know, it was like it wasn't like a cheap, gross, although CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: 7 Eleven hot dogs do have a place. But still back to 7 Eleven. Always back. Roads always lead back. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: it was all beef hot dog, delicious. Like, and and then it was wrapped in a bagel. So does it get better? I don't think so. And I CX Joe: I don't think so. I think that answers the question too. Lynda Harvey: I was so excited. I had purchased it earlier in the day. I was going to go have my lunch. And somebody, not only did they take it, They took it out and left the bag in the fridge. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. So they left the and they like yes. They CX Joe: The empty bag? Ooh. Lynda Harvey: rolled it up like it was still in there. Like they placed CX Joe: Wow. Lynda Harvey: it, like they folded the top, they put it in the same space. CX Joe: Diabolical. Lynda Harvey: It wasn't like smashed or anything. There wasn't any indication that I would go to this bag and open it up and get my bagel dog. They did. They did. So CX Joe: they even probably puffed the bag out a little bit, Puffing action. That's brutal. Lynda Harvey: Based on my personal experience, yes, prank them. I don't care what you do. prank them, exploding CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: glitter bomb, lunch thief, absolutely not. CX Joe: Yeah, even like a smoke bomb. which gets to my answer, which was in short, no. But yeah, I mean, you could do like all sorts of retribution. You just might get fired. So it gets back to and then when you're Lynda Harvey: There there is that. There is that. CX Joe: like, but I let out that glitter bomb that went wrong and set the office on fire because they stole my lunch and they even puffed out the bag, you know, you're probably still gonna get fired. And the lunch thief isn't, but I guess you'd have had a great time or you have a great story to tell. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, I guess it I guess it depends on how pervasive the the lunch CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: thief is, right? Because I've worked in many offices. I've got a lot of jobs. And I don't think that there has been a job that I've worked at. Okay. Maybe I I don't think we saw it at Daily Harvest, but Daily Harvest fed us. Like there was always food to eat. Yeah. I mean it was CX Joe: Really healthy food. Ugh. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: delicious, but also like it wasn't a bagel dog. But I think every office job I've had has always had a sign up that says, if it's not your lunch, don't take it. CX Joe: Don't know. You know, the thing is I'd Lynda Harvey: Seriously. CX Joe: like to think the world's and the workplace has evolved past signs like that, but clearly it hasn't. Case in point, the question that came in. All right. Don't make don't make the retribution too severe. I guess I guess is the point. Lynda Harvey: Maybe just do a lotion sandwich. make it look like a really good sandwich lotion sandwich. CX Joe: Ew my gosh it's gross ew Lynda Harvey: But if you're stealing somebody's lunch, you kinda earned a bite of lotion. CX Joe: gosh. Lynda Harvey: I actually I remember I worked with somebody once. this was also at Verizon. There was a very serious lunch thief at Verizon. but I remember I remember a friend of mine catching the lunch thief, and they were actually washing the person's Tupperware. So they like had eaten their lunch, and they were at least kind enough to wash the Tupperware. CX Joe: That's yeah, that's good. That's kind. You know, at my first job, tangentially related, but no, this is a serious story. We went from having no snacks because we were such a scrappy, cheap startup. And then we Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: started to bring in, you know, some snacks, but picture not like if you've worked at places where they're just like endlessly restocked. Seat Geek in my career is ridiculous. There's candy draws Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and eight chip draws. And no, Joe has come in with the 24-pack of fun size lays, and then everyone attacks the box and then Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: they're gone 90 minutes later. And then it somebody reported that because of their own inclination to take many of the limited snacks, that another team member was making memes like. mean memes about them taking all the food and Lynda Harvey: That's not cool. CX Joe: they showed it to me and we did fire the other person. And I don't say that lightly because firing anybody is, you know, have to be really thoughtful about it. But that was basically online bullying. And that's what we decided. And we weren't gonna take that. Lynda Harvey: with that and I think in general that could have so been solved with a qu the with a a conversation. Hey, and and a conversation not only like peer to peer, but CX Joe: Right. Come on. Take one, let me have one. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: a manager having a conversation saying hey, this has been brought to our attention. Yes, the snacks are for eating. Yes, they are there for for the things. And and you can choose to do what you want to do. But it's a bad look. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: this is this isn't a good look for you to go raid the snacks or hoard the snacks. It's just not a good look for you. That should have been a conversation that their manager had with them. CX Joe: Yeah. Right. That's a good yeah, it's a good example. Lynda Harvey: But then I agree with you. you're gonna go be a bully. Fuck you. Yeah, you should go. CX Joe: Yep. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: Not cool. CX Joe: Not cool. Lynda Harvey: okay. So Joe. And I get this question a lot from CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: from my audience. I get this a lot from my audience. How do I get my manager to respond to my emails? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. So this is an interesting one to unpack. I Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: am going to start out with the best advice that I could give. I'm already almost laughing, and Lynda is already almost laughing at me because we, I think, both especially like to talk about lessons on this podcast that we learned personally in our careers. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: So the best advice I could give is make them shorter. Again, the Lynda Harvey: Ha ha CX Joe: question was. How do I get my manager to respond to my emails? Probably by making them shorter. So this is spoken as somebody who would send very long emails to my managers early in career and to my reports. let me just say early in my career and be kind to myself. but especially, you know, the the question is manager specific Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and whatever, however you want to feel about it. There's always some degree of, manager report dynamics. And so your Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: manager might be busier. They might have multiple reports. In some workplaces, they could have five or 10 or 15 reports. That's a lot. And they have a day job to do, probably besides that, meaning their own projects and responsibilities and they're managing up to. And so that's a busy day. And there's a really, really strong correlation in the workplace to medium and especially. large long sized emails not getting responded to. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: so if you're about to send a three or four paragraph email, and of course anytime we generalize, I mean there could be exceptions if it's like a big monthly report or something that's different. But if it's like a topic that you are passionate about and you're just like, gosh, manager, please respond to this one. I need a response, you know, maybe don't send the three or four paragraph version. Obviously nowadays you could use AI if you must to make it shorter, but that runs its own risks. really the most ideal is it still has a human touch. Just make it shorter. And if there's really one question that you're trying to ask, you could I I started to do this in my career to kind of beat beat it out of myself a little bit, is like start to experiment with just asking the question as the first sentence. And then Lynda Harvey: Uh-huh. CX Joe: notice that you could maybe provide two or three sentences of context instead of the old like four paragraph buildup to the question, which again, I was very guilty of. And now the one question you really wanted answered is buried four paragraphs deep. Your manager didn't even see it. They didn't even finish the email, and that's why you're not hearing back. Lynda Harvey: I agree with you so much. I always tell my clients, no more than four bullet points. If you can't get your email into four bullet points, it needs to be a conversation. and it CX Joe: Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Lynda Harvey: I giggle I giggled because I am notoriously short. Right. I am notoriously short. In fact, Joe and I were having a a text conversation the other day and he had sent me like some information and I think I responded back with like, Yep, got it. And he's like, succinct as usual, feels about feels about right for you, Lynda. but four bullet points. Get it into four bullet points. If you CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: can't, then it shouldn't, it should be a conversation. I think it's also really important for listeners to understand that we are so caught up in our own experience that we forget that there are other people who are having experiences that are not the same as ours. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: So at my peak. At my peak, and it's so funny, the busiest I think I ever was in my inbox was at Daily Harvest. And I remember my predecessor, Mike, who we would get together after I had left Daily Harvest, he'd be like, Lynda, how did you cope with that? He's like, I had to turn your emails back on for like a thing to get a thing for some CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: authorization. He's like, How did you even function? You got so many emails. And I'm like, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I so so first of all, at my peak, I was getting anywhere between Probably two to three hundred emails a day. that CX Joe: Well, yeah. Lynda Harvey: was my peak. And then I was in 80 Slack channels, plus I had a full team of people, right? And again at my peak, like the roll up, like I think what what did we end up like at the peak? Like 90 in-house. Was it about 90 in-house that we had? That CX Joe: Could been something approaching that, yeah. Lynda Harvey: that rolled up, right? That all rolled up. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: And so if I got an email that was anything more than a few sentences, I had to put it down. And I was like, CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: I'm just gonna earmark this for later. I'm just gonna put this away. And then it was like weeks. And I was like, they never followed up with me. So it probably wasn't that important. Right. And then I delete it. And so you have to understand that it might be top of mind for you. It might be super important. It might be a thing for you, but you need to understand kind of what their workload is. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And so much of what I teach people is learning how to manage themselves in order to to survive at work. And so if your manager's super busy, if your manager's like, geez, I can't read all of my emails, have a conversation with them. Say, hey, what's the best way for me to to communicate important issues to you? Because email may not be it. and and I used to always CX Joe: Yeah. I thought that was a great point too. Lynda Harvey: I used to always tell my team, I'm like, listen, here, here are my timelines. If you email me 24 hours at least to get a response. If you slack me, then I will get back to you within the day. I won't leave any personal Slack messages unread. If it is urgent, text me because or call me. text or call me. this is how you get my attention. And so ultimately it's really important for you to understand how do you get your manager's attention? Maybe it's a one-two punch. Here's an email, here's a slack. Here's an email, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: here's a Slack, here's a conversation. So you have it in three different spaces. But assuming that that everybody communicates in your same way and assuming that they understand how important that email is, is foolishness. CX Joe: Yeah, great points there. Just like two quick plus ones. One is that everyone has different styles, communication styles. I've shouted Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: out Elizabeth from Daily Harvest before in this podcast and I will again. She introduced this concept to me of a user manual. And so Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: when she came in and as a new boss, she presented a user manual on herself and just her preferences, her quirks. And she wasn't sharing it as in my way or the highway or nothing else could work, but it was just a really humble, I think introspective share of this is how I tend to think of emails and this is how I tend to be in the morning versus, sometimes in the evenings I have this going on or whatever it might have been. And it was just really helpful for everyone to keep in mind and that everyone rolls differently with different styles. And we came to understand yeah, maybe the long emails are better for later in the week or to your point, this is the other second plus one is sometimes just put it on the next live meeting agenda. And I have to push myself on that even now with clients where sometimes I find myself writing an email and I realize that I'm just taking the easy way out because email just feels easier or less personal or awkward. I'm like, no, this is better for a live conversation. I'll just stick it on our agenda for three days from now, if it's not too urgent. Lynda Harvey: Okay, amazing. CX Joe: yeah. Okay. Lynda, I like this one. Short, direct to the point. Why does it matter what I wear to work? Lynda Harvey: this is such a loaded question. This is such a loaded question. and CX Joe: How so? Lynda Harvey: one I've one I've I I actually feel like I have I've kind of run the gamut of this particular question. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: and and and the reason I've run the gamut is because I think that there might have been some early kind of hazing that was done to me. Where it was like, this CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: is what you have to wear at the office. And it is absolutely imperative that you come in and you're business casual, your business, you know, when I when I worked, well, number one, when I worked at Nordstrom, that's a very different story. because it's assumed that you I mean, there's a sign, there's there's letters above the door when you clock in CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: to where you go out to the sales floor, and the words above the door say, outwalk the most fashionable people in the world. Right? So that was the expectation within Nordstrom. You you don't walk out CX Joe: Hm. Bro. Pretty on the nose. No pressure. My goodness. Couldn't survive a day there. Uh-huh. Lynda Harvey: looking like a schlep. Although I will say that I was in a Nordstrom recently and I was a little disappointed with some of the outfits that I saw. But I digress. So again, working coming up through CX and working kind of in the call center contact center space. this is this has been something I've toiled with and I've written dress code policies, right? Where it's like, hey, don't come in in your workout wear. This isn't a gym. Like, come in and and please just put on decent like clean, clean clothes, right? Please come in and clean clothes CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: and don't look like you're going to the gym. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and then one of the policies that I wrote that was really hard for people to understand was like, And you know, and I would I would have nixed this going forward, but it was like if you're gonna wear leggings, like wear a longer top like a tunic length top, right? Like don't come in and again because it was imitating gym wear. Like if you're coming in looking like you're going to the gym, like show up because we don't want you that casual with our customers. Yes, you're right. You don't face customers, they don't see you. But sometimes our The way that we look on the outside helps us be more professional on the like we're not if we're dressed casual, are we behaving too casual? At this point in time post COVID and whatever, I'm like, you know, oftentimes I'm wearing a nice shirt and and sweatshorts. Today I'm actually dressed rather nicely, but you know, business on top, party on the bottom. It's like, it's like a business mullet, if you will. but I think. CX Joe: Wow. Just full of these. Lynda Harvey: I know I've got a lot to think. But here's here's ultimately the advice that I would give. And Joe, I would love your take on it. You need to understand the company that you work for. You CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: need to understand, again, your audience. And there because so many businesses have moved to more brand ethos, if your brand is an elevated brand. The expectation is is that you look elevated and polished. I CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I visited a client when I was in Dallas recently and I you know, I I was I thought my outfit was cute, but it wasn't like super polished or whatever, but I thought it was cute and I walked in and it was a bank and everything was marble and everyone and I was like, I am so underdressed for like my visit to my client. It was just to go get the lay of the land and just say hi because I was in town. But everybody CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: was just dressed to the nines. And I was like, because they're a bank, right? That's ultimately CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: their working world. So a lot of it is understanding. Number one, the brand that you're working for and the expectations within that brand. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And and again, you may have clients that come in and out, even if you're not facing clients, clients can still see what you're wearing. And so ultimately, like just be aligned with the overall brand, and that's why it matters. CX Joe: Yep. That I am I'm pretty much aligned with you here. I would recommend striking a balance. And my view is that, you know, again, like we're both acknowledging, all workplaces are different. So definitely agree with that. It really depends on the workplace too, what is required. But I think generally speaking, in the work world, things have become so much more casual and the usually, usually, Any sort anything remotely towards a dress code policy will be usually less strict than it might have been generations ago or even just a few years ago. So Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: my career spans 20 plus years when I had my first job and I really wanted a promotion and to be taken seriously, I'd wear a button-down, shirt and slacks. And I remember when I was promoted from intern to full-time, one of the salespeople said to me, I thought you were full-time already. You wear pants. It was just a funny moment. But I was Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: like, Yeah, it worked. that's the those are the kind of shenanigans youngsters, us old people used to go through. It's like, yeah, you'd kind of dress up a little bit to gain respect, especially if you wanted to be seen as a more like older, authoritative figure. You know, nowadays like that would be laughworthy in a lot of workplaces. I mean, a lot of workplaces really just might prefer you show up with like a clean, crisp t shirt, you know, a pair Lynda Harvey: Just clean, clean. CX Joe: of pair of jeans or what it doesn't have to be jeans, but like, pants of choice that are that are just clean that, looks like you got Lynda Harvey: No holes. CX Joe: change from the night time or you know, from sleepy time or from the night before. Like I and and and and I still think there's something to that. I'll actually probably surprise you, Lynda. You might even be proud of me that I'm wading into this unscripted, but I saw a big to do on the internet a couple of weeks ago, not to date this episode too much, but around the ice coffee interview scandal. Did you see this? So Lynda Harvey: Yes, and I lots of thoughts. CX Joe: I yeah. So for anyone who's been living under a rock, no, for anyone who's not aware, an HR leader just like decided to post a video that from what I could tell seemed really well intended. She like wasn't calling any individual out. She just she does interviews and a lot of people HR stuff for a living. It was like, hey, y'all, I just thought I'd share out with my community. Like, don't my advice to you, you're coming in for interviews, like, don't walk in with your iced coffee. And she made it painted a picture of a drippy condens condensing, condensating Lynda Harvey: Uh-huh. CX Joe: iced coffee, maybe from Starbucks or wherever. And you're just walking up to the interview and you're sipping your dripping, iced coffee cup. And so she put out the video and then encountered a lot of vitriol. What's up Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: with this? I could walk in with whatever iced coffee I want. And then people sticking up for her and people against her. And The reason I bring it up is because, again, this is at the risk of sounding like an old person. But my view sometimes is just because you technically have the right to do something or believe you should quote unquote have the right to do it. It doesn't mean that it's the logical or sensible thing to do. my take on the ice coffee discussion is like, nah, just pass. Like, no one's saying that you're not allowed to, but why, why should you walk in with something that, yeah, might indicate like, her point was it's seems like you're running through your list of errands and then whoops, the interview is next. the point that I would connect it to with the attire to is that it could be distracting. So, like with the iced coffee situation, it's true. If it's like literally dripping water onto the interviewer's desk, it's not like an authority or respect thing. For me, it's more of just like, why? Why though? It's distracting. It's distracting from where you want the focus and attention to be, which is on how awesome you are and how. your skills and the articulation of your answers. And so I think it's the same with the attire in the workplace. I remember going back again to my first workplace. One of the only times I had a chat with somebody about their attire was because it just was distracting to other people. It was, you know, the I mean, he confirmed for me, it was like the undershirt from the day before he slept over at someone's place. I mean, it just was so kind of rumpled and It it it genuinely distracted others. It was like the whisper of the workplace for the first hour of the day. So that's when it does become a little more of a workplace issue. It's not like the style police are saying you need to wear a tuxedo. It's just like, hey, you're just literally distracting other people from doing their work. next time throw on a clean undershirt instead of the rumbled one. is that too much to ask? Lynda Harvey: Right, right. Please don't smell like Doritos. Just that's all we ask. Don't smell or seven eleven. That's all CX Joe: Or seven eleven. Lynda Harvey: we ask. You know, I so the iced coffee thing again was one of those moments similar to the dress code where I really had to go I worked through a myriad of emotions. CX Joe: That was a week of my life. Lynda Harvey: It really like I I still sometimes think about it. because one of the things that I tell so many people, I'm like, we don't know the other person's journey. Like we don't know the other person's journey. And so what I was thinking of is the person who has the Ice Coffee of like, maybe this is something that calms them down, maybe they're just really nervous. Maybe this was like they're so excited about this particular job. and they feel so confident in their abilities and their skills that they decided to splurge and get the iced coffee or do the thing, right? And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: so I was just like, geez, well, we really don't know what it is. But then also somebody who has interviewed that like at least a thousand people. I'm like, yeah, but I I kind of feel like there are some unwritten rules that you go to. And and you know, I I tell people a lot that interviews are kind of like a first date. And on your first date, you go in with Hopefully your best impression. You don't go in like with your with your makeup running, crying about your ex and how you would take them back as you're sitting across the table from somebody. And if you do, stop. Stop doing that. That's why you're not getting more dates. because we're not here to like dump all of the things and do all of the things. So again, this is those moments of like best first impressions, because that's sometimes all you ever get. And So here's the thing. If you're that person where the iced coffee calms you down, it's part of your process, it's part of this thing, open with that. Hey, I know that this doesn't look really, really good. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: I need you to understand that I'm actually nervous. This helps me calm down, or this helps like some of this is how I'm self-regulating, right? And to me, as CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: somebody who interviews, if you're self-aware enough to say, hey, listen, I understand the appearance of this, I want to give you a little bit of context. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: Then I think somebody would be like, cool, okay, let's let's let you have the iced coffee, right? it's fine. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: but but you know, because you would you might walk in with a bottle of water. And why is a bottle of water acceptable? Even if it was a super cold bottle of water that the person at the desk gave you, like that's going to be drippy on the desk as well. Like, I think a lot of it is just about like giving some additional context of like, hey, I know how this looks or but but I think in this case, the person who was interviewing was probably very oblivious. And then the CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: person who was there was a little taken aback by it by going, like, this isn't your best first impression. Is this and and then that's when I think the person who was doing the interviewing probably thought, Are you gonna take this job seriously? Because it doesn't feel like you took this CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: experience seriously. And again, I I think a lot of it just boils down to communication. CX Joe: Yeah, totally fair. One of the biggest running themes of the pod. Lynda Harvey: And and I think in general, the HR person, if she listens, because they know she obviously listens to the pod, I pr CX Joe: Everybody. Lynda Harvey: I probably would have just said, like, hey, should we go put your drink in the fridge so it doesn't get warm? Like I I would have I would have just rem I just would have removed the distraction. I CX Joe: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: don't think I would have sat there with like in in shock, because I would want to give somebody because Yes, that's not a great first impression, but again, I don't know your story. I don't know whatever. I'd be like, hey, do you wanna just should we go put that in the fridge? And I'll get you a bottle of water or I'll get you something like that so so you can come back and you can enjoy your beverage. Would you would you and if the person's like, No, I'd have been like, Okay, well, first date's over. CX Joe: Yeah, fair. Lynda Harvey: first date's over. CX Joe: Yep. All right. Should we do like one or two more? What do you think? Lynda Harvey: yeah, let's do let's do one or two more. Ooh, how about this do I really have to give two weeks notice? CX Joe: I like this one. It's building on a theme. And I I I like when our answers as disparate as they are, hopefully there are themes here, right? So one of the themes of my answers for anybody who cares would be to maybe shift your thinking from do I have to do something? And similarly, I would say, Do I have to do something A, or sometimes it's B, like don't I have the right to do something or something possible? And shift it more to should I? Like what Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: What would be the best choice for me and for my career? And ideally you want to factor in other people's experience as well and morality Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: as well. I factor in those things a lot, not to sound like on some pedestal, but I just everyone's built differently. I do try to factor in other people's experiences and a dash of morality as well. But you know what's interesting, Lynda, even if you're hearing that and you're like, you know what, I'm more of those, I'm one of those every person for themselves, folks. Okay, fair. you should probably still give at least your two weeks' notice because the point is, life is long, career is long, and it's just usually not the best choice to kind of torch a situation or relationship to burn a bridge, so to speak. there are always going to be exceptions. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: I've been hit up for advice from friends personally who will paint a picture for me of this is what's been going on in my workplace. This is what a boss or workplace did to me. And Lynda Harvey: Uh-huh. CX Joe: I just got a dream offer and it starts in a week and I'm gonna do it. And I'm like, you know, as a friend or whatever, more power to you, right? But that's what I call like an exception or an edge case. If we're just generalizing here, you don't have to give two weeks notice, and that might seem traditional or archaic to you. But the point is more as you alluded to before, I think put yourself in other people's shoes and remember Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: that your boss, your coworkers, maybe you're mad at your boss, but you're not so mad at your coworkers. it's probably gonna suck for your coworkers too, if you leave and give two days' notice because probably everyone's gonna have to scramble and pick up the slack. They don't even really have time to make a game plan, let alone start to hire and train somebody. So it's just it's a better move, it's a better look, it's more respectful to your peers to your managers and to the brands to give that two weeks notice. I would, especially in leadership roles, I would try to give three Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: or four weeks if possible. And again, part of that was I just know that life and career are really long. So you're basically maximizing the chances that you could call on that boss and that brand for a favor and a reference like literally 10 years from then, versus if you get in the mindset of like, That's old fashioned. That's something my parents and grandparents did. I'm my own person. I'm going to have two days' notice. Fine. in a sense, more power to you, but don't necessarily expect that ten years later you could call on that boss for a reference. You probably can't. And then you might, you know, regret it at that time. That's my take. What about you? Lynda Harvey: Again, I feel like this that these these feel like simple questions, but they feel really loaded to me. So CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I I I I think it depends. And I think it depends on your atmosphere. I think it depends on where you're at in your career. And I think it depends on the the span of your the reach. Sorry, not the span, the reach of your employer. So if you work someplace in a very small community, in a very small niche, yeah, I would say give the two weeks notice because again, if your reputation is going to carry you from job to job to job, or if you're only hired based on your reputation, then you have to keep your reputation kind of squeaky clean, right? On the flip side. Especially in the job market that we're currently sitting in and watching the sheer, the staggering amount of layoffs that are happening within organizations. And especially here in the United States, it's so different abroad, right? You know, I don't know if I ever told you this, Joe. I had a client who was like, they're gonna fire me. And I was like, Okay, so what's your plan? She's Well, I've got three months. And I'm like, What do you mean you have three months? She's like, Yeah, they have to give me three months' notice if they're gonna fire me. And I'm like, Wow, that is CX Joe: Wow. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: That is not the case in the United States. CX Joe: Wow indeed. No. Lynda Harvey: and so, you know, kind of depending on where you're listening from, because I do know we actually have a decent international audience. so I think it depends. I think it depends on kind of the time frame. But when I think about the United States and I think about the the staggering amount of layoffs and terminations that hire with no safety net, with no compensation, with none of those things, I also think about the fact that if you died today. your job would just have to figure it out. honestly, if you died, it would be a minor inconvenience for them. so I think like factoring in on all of those things, if you work someplace that you feel is harming your health or doing these things, and I mean, no, you don't have to give them two weeks' notice because if you died today, they'd have to figure it out. So I think you my answer is like, as I'm so I waffle so much. It's like I think it really depends. And I do think depending on your situation in the organization as a leader, yes, I agree. You should give more notice because that's going to be a longer fill time. And again, you are creating a smaller and smaller pool of people who can recommend you. you know, whereas, I I true story, I gave four weeks' notice with my last employer and they're like, nope, you can only give us two. And I was like, Okay, whatever. Thank you. CX Joe: You tried. Lynda Harvey: And and I was like, and do you think I did any work for those two weeks? I did not. I didn't do a thing. I didn't hand off projects. I was just like, fine, if this is how you're gonna treat me, cool. But I needed insurance. So I stuck around. CX Joe: Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: this is this is confessions from Lynda. but I think it's, you know, think about the person you want to be, think about the reputation you want to keep, and think about, you know, the thing I say all the time is can you keep your backyard clean? Because you never know when you're going to run into somebody professionally and and you're going to need to leverage that relationship. And if you left somebody high and dry or you just like didn't come back, some people are going to remember that. And some people hold a grudge. So I think again, it's know your so CX Joe: Yep, exactly. Lynda Harvey: much of this was like know your audience, know your company, and then CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: make make a wise choice. CX Joe: Yep. Know the consequences of your choices. It's probably another theme of the episode. So Lynda, we always say Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Okay, so Joe I think we've CX Joe: everything to each other and even to our listeners. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: So I have a client call in ten. Just by the bye, as you say, and people Lynda Harvey: Yeah. And I'm like I figured we should we should CX Joe: will not listen for too much longer. Now, Lynda, Lynda Harvey: No, no. CX Joe: did you have one more question or story you want to tell? Or Lynda Harvey: Listen, the story that I had to tell is such an existential question. It is so existential. Yes, it relates to somebody ended up inadvertently showing body parts to somebody at work and they got fired, but it's really more about a big existential question that I had. And I think that that's a conversation. it it it relates to working from home, like what happens when we make small mistakes, those types of things. So CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: I think that there's probably twenty lessons to be learned in in the final question that I had. But I think it's probably best that we save that one for another because we will we will unpack that story. But then CX Joe: chew. Lynda Harvey: it really kind of leads back into the call to work from home and like what we believe like is appropriate, not appropriate for at home employees to do. So in general, I just think CX Joe: Okay. Lynda Harvey: it's Such an existential question. CX Joe: This this is like a bit of a teaser. We don't do too many teasers, but this is an organic teaser maybe for for a future episode. I'm intrigued. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, because it's I think I think it's actually a really, really great topic for us to weigh in on. and talking about like little mistakes. This was a big mistake, but like mistakes at work and the consequences for that thing, but then talking about like the broader, the big CX Joe: Yep. Lynda Harvey: broad scope. CX Joe: Love it. Lynda Harvey: And thanks again to Keen for sponsoring today's episode. If you're growing your business and thinking about building a global team, don't stop at finding an employer of record. Find a partner that helps you build the team too. Check out KeentoHire.com to learn more. Now, back to the show. CX Joe: Love it. Lynda Harvey: Okay, so Joe, as per ush, we gotta CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: talk about things that have have got you hot under the collar. Yeah, that's a thing that we do. CX Joe: That's the thing. We couldn't sacrifice that. I knew I knew that one wasn't moving. Lynda Harvey: We will not sacrifice the hot under the collar. Because this was burning questions. So CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: burning questions lead to hot under the collar. So, Joe, anything that's got you hot under the collar. CX Joe: Hot hot under the collar sports fan version. And th this is another one that I could speak on for an hour is the role of sports in my life or in in society in general. But suffice to say, I've tried to I've tried to ease back a little bit from the sports obsessions. You know, it's it's a good thing to do as you get older and have kids, in my opinion, not not to judge or anything, but like I'm a baseball fan. It's hard to watch 162 three hour baseball games a year plus playoffs, and have time for other stuff. But I do still love the Yankees. I grew up a huge Yankees fan. And last night I had a great chance to take my brother, one of my brothers and my mom to a Yankees playoff game. We lost in heartbreaking fashion. We got swept by a division rival. Wasn't great. But the pet peeve that I have is the direction of sports stadiums going into like an attempted dance club kind of environment. Like Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: I grew up, I'd go to the game with my mom. You see what's going on in field, you have some food, you catch up, the sounds of the ballpark, popcorn, peanuts. It was just like it's like Americana. Nowadays, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: between every single pitch, let alone every inning, let alone we got to the game early, it was like a great great chance to catch up with mom. No, because I we couldn't hear each other at all. It was Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: blaring dance music and get loud, get loud between every pitch. And we're like, Well, we are humans with free will. We're here. We're we're we're excited about the game. We will we will get loud and cheer when we when we see fit. But you don't need to like play DJ dance music in my ear all night. That's just weird. Not at the club, Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: I'm at the Yankees game. So that's mine. What about you, Lynda? Lynda Harvey: I think that's a good one, Joe. I I think like the lack of access to corn dogs because you know CX Joe: I so thought you were gonna really speak on something serious there for a second. That was a great, great wind up. yeah, I'm so sorry. And then I Lynda Harvey: I feel like this is I feel like this is a serious topic. CX Joe: was right. And then I was right. Lynda Harvey: But sometimes you just want a corndog. sometimes that's just a thing that you want. And and the fact that it's and and I mean, maybe you're you're New York's well, New Jersey and New York, and maybe your accessibility to corndog much higher than mine. But I have a hard time. Well, you know, when you want a corndog, you really just want a corndog. And I have a hard time knowing where I can go find a corndog. So CX Joe: That whole answer was amazing, including the aside you had of like look, maybe your corn dog access is just Lynda Harvey: Ha ha ha. CX Joe: up the wise. So I besides the freezer aisle, I don't I I think my access Lynda Harvey: Ha ha ha. CX Joe: to corndogs is actually pitiful. New Lynda Harvey: Well CX Joe: Jersey might be in last place in the nation. I don't know. Lynda Harvey: Well, Utah is definitely its own unique place. CX Joe: It's Lynda Harvey: Its own unique place. And I'm like, maybe there's people who are like, Lynda, what are you talking about? I can go get a corndog at like four places and I'm like, I wanna be where you are when I want a corndog. So CX Joe: I think Utah, I've only been a few times, you know, a little more than I do, but it just Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: seems like Utah in a nutshell is like you could get to like an intersection. On all four corners there'll be a place selling eight thousand combinations of soda with syrups and Lynda Harvey: yeah. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and then I mean maybe like a thousand corn dogs apparently. Lynda Harvey: No. No, there are no corndogs. I only know three places where I can readily get a corndog. Yeah. CX Joe: no corn dogs. No corn dogs. Okay, eight thousand sodas, no corn dogs, and that's the problem. Gotcha. I caught up. Lynda Harvey: Sodas and cookies. We can get sodas and cookies, just no corn dogs. CX Joe: Okay, that's a shame. On that note, I'm angry. Lynda Harvey: Well, that felt like a mic drop. that felt very mic drop. CX Joe: Yeah, what a downer to end the episode on though. No corn dogs. What a bummer. All right. Lynda Harvey: No co I now I'm gonna go find a corndog. Okay. Thanks everybody. CX Joe: Tune in next time to hear that story. Thanks all. Bye.