Latest / Get Real with Jim Weiss / Dr. Cheri Mah: Why Sleep Is the Ultimate Performance Drug

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Dr. Cheri Mah: Why Sleep Is the Ultimate Performance Drug · Get Real with Jim Weiss

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Jim Weisse here back with get Real. One
0:04
Speaker 1: thing that Sherry Matt did not do is put me
0:06
Speaker 1: to sleep. She kept me wide awake with all of
0:09
Speaker 1: the great ideas she had there her methodologies for helping
0:14
Speaker 1: people sleep. I think it was so cool. Not only
0:17
Speaker 1: did she talk about her experience with Andrea Guidala and
0:20
Speaker 1: a couple of other folks, but really more critically and
0:24
Speaker 1: recently the Seattle Seahawks, who you know, became world champions
0:29
Speaker 1: last year, so that was pretty cool to hear. You know,
0:32
Speaker 1: some of the things that she does, for example, you know,
0:36
Speaker 1: sending the players out with little sleep packs, you know,
0:40
Speaker 1: so that when they're traveling, and you know, that's a
0:42
Speaker 1: big thing. All of us do it, both in business
0:45
Speaker 1: but in sports. So you know, have your eyemasks and
0:48
Speaker 1: your special socks and verbal teas. And she confirmed that
0:53
Speaker 1: some of these new toppers that are you know, heat
0:56
Speaker 1: and cool and you know, get you to that perfect
0:58
Speaker 1: temperature are very useful. You know, the eye patches, the
1:04
Speaker 1: turning off your phone, you know, thirty minutes before you
1:07
Speaker 1: go to bed. I don't know if I'll ever get
1:09
Speaker 1: that one right, not watching TV before you go to bed.
1:12
Speaker 1: All these things that you know, really are practical points.
1:16
Speaker 1: The big takeaway is that you have to be proactive
1:20
Speaker 1: and have a plan, and that's really what it's about.
1:24
Speaker 1: And she said, even if I get you to sleep
1:26
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty minutes more a night, that can change
1:31
Speaker 1: your life. The metrics that doctor Mott pointed to because
1:35
Speaker 1: she's helped people sleep better, is she can improve the
1:39
Speaker 1: number of free throws a basketball player can make by
1:43
Speaker 1: as much as ten percent, which could change a game,
1:47
Speaker 1: you know, the outcome of a game. She gave us
1:50
Speaker 1: other metrics that were kind of remarkable, and she talked
1:53
Speaker 1: about the mo score, which she introduced on the ESPN
1:57
Speaker 1: a few years ago. And she was telling me how
2:00
Speaker 1: many bookies and Vegas odds makers you know, would contact
2:05
Speaker 1: her about helping them figure out how to game based
2:09
Speaker 1: on you know, who was getting the best sleep, what
2:12
Speaker 1: players and what teams. I mean, we've talked about, you know,
2:15
Speaker 1: what should become I think a true probably cultural movement,
2:20
Speaker 1: right moving away from the hey you'll sleep when you're
2:24
Speaker 1: dead and the concept of burning the midnight oil and
2:27
Speaker 1: heroicizing you know, not sleeping, to a world where more
2:32
Speaker 1: sleep is actually celebrated and you know, we realize it's
2:37
Speaker 1: one of the key pillars along with you know, blood
2:39
Speaker 1: pressure and diet and exercise and wait, you know, to
2:45
Speaker 1: make you healthy, particularly from a longevity perspective. What drew
2:51
Speaker 1: you to the intersection of sleep and athletic performance? Why
2:57
Speaker 1: this particular niche? How did you end up here?
3:00
Speaker 2: I was first just really fascinated with sleep. It's this
3:03
Speaker 2: process we all do every single night, and arguably many
3:07
Speaker 2: of us don't do it well or don't do enough
3:09
Speaker 2: of it, or we know that we could do better
3:11
Speaker 2: in this part of our life, but we all experience it,
3:15
Speaker 2: and I just know that it was so interesting to understand, well,
3:19
Speaker 2: how can we enhance this recovery process. So much of
3:22
Speaker 2: the field had been looking at the effects of sleep
3:25
Speaker 2: deprivation when we don't get enough sleep, all the things
3:28
Speaker 2: that unfortunately don't work and function as well. But I
3:32
Speaker 2: was fascinated, like, how can we intervene payback what we
3:35
Speaker 2: call accumulated sleep debt? And are there actually performance benefits cognitively,
3:40
Speaker 2: physiologically and with elite athletes do we see on field
3:44
Speaker 2: on court performance? And so during my Masters was really
3:49
Speaker 2: when I started to focus on sleep in elite athletes
3:52
Speaker 2: at Stanford University. I was mentored by the father figure
3:56
Speaker 2: of the field. So in general, the field is very young.
3:59
Speaker 2: He only just covered rem sleep, that dreaming sleep in
4:02
Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties and sixties, so overall our understanding of
4:05
Speaker 2: sleep is very very much in its infancy. And that's
4:10
Speaker 2: really what kickstarted my fascination was, you know, can we
4:14
Speaker 2: enhance this process at night and do we see those
4:17
Speaker 2: benefits which cut to the chase. Through some studies that
4:21
Speaker 2: we did with many of the Stanford varsity athletes, we
4:24
Speaker 2: saw an improvement in for example, men's basketball, free throw
4:28
Speaker 2: shooting improved by nine percent, three point shots improved by
4:33
Speaker 2: nine percent, they sprinted faster by four percent. They've reacted
4:38
Speaker 2: faster by twelve percent. Yes, and it makes sense, but
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Speaker 2: the quantification was what was novel and really showing that
4:44
Speaker 2: it's not just this one percent that so many elite
4:47
Speaker 2: athletes or us as high performers, whether you're an executive, CEO,
4:52
Speaker 2: working professional, all of us generally are looking for that
4:56
Speaker 2: one percent better and this could be something that's is accessible,
5:01
Speaker 2: that's free, you can access it anytime in your day
5:05
Speaker 2: and you really could potentially get these tremendous.
5:07
Speaker 1: Benefits Are you a good sleeper?
5:10
Speaker 2: Great question I used to be. I will transparently say
5:14
Speaker 2: I right now have a baby at home and a
5:17
Speaker 2: toddlers and so my sleep is I would say, not
5:20
Speaker 2: as ideal as possible, given it's the wild card of
5:24
Speaker 2: young children, but I do what I can in terms
5:26
Speaker 2: of trying to well.
5:27
Speaker 1: I would think your kids would sleep better than most kids.
5:30
Speaker 1: Is that not true?
5:32
Speaker 2: It's a wild card at home.
5:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you're normal like the rest of.
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Speaker 2: Us at it myself.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Good. You created the ESPN Moscore, an NBA win
5:43
Speaker 1: loss predictor based on team schedules. What did that score
5:48
Speaker 1: reveal about quality sleep and winning?
5:51
Speaker 2: This was an interesting applied project where I partnered with
5:54
Speaker 2: ESPN Cool. They asked me, doctor maw, can you predict
5:59
Speaker 2: when NBA teams are going to lose games? Strictly based
6:03
Speaker 2: on the schedule. So in the spirit of the project,
6:07
Speaker 2: I did not look at strength of team, which we
6:09
Speaker 2: obviously know will factor into how games game outcomes will be,
6:13
Speaker 2: but I specifically only looked at the travel schedule where
6:17
Speaker 2: the games were played, where those teams were flying too. Subsequently,
6:21
Speaker 2: and was able to identify some of the worst of
6:24
Speaker 2: the worst scenarios where teams would play across the season. Now,
6:28
Speaker 2: we did this over the course of three seasons, and
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Speaker 2: my predicted accuracy was seventy eight to eighty six percent
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Speaker 2: correct on the worst of the worst games that those
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Speaker 2: would be losses. So that is, in my opinion, pretty huge,
6:44
Speaker 2: not factoring in strength of team, but showing that perhaps
6:47
Speaker 2: there are these other factors like jet lag and crossing
6:52
Speaker 2: time zones and insufficient recovery and sleep time that probably
6:56
Speaker 2: play a larger role that than many of us may
6:59
Speaker 2: may you know, really put behind looking at game outcomes,
7:04
Speaker 2: is there like.
7:04
Speaker 1: A common denominator to the worst sleepers? I mean, is
7:07
Speaker 1: there something they do like are they gamers or are
7:11
Speaker 1: they you know, I don't know, scared of the dark.
7:16
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I mean, are there are
7:17
Speaker 1: there things you've learned more anecdotally good question? Sure, yeah
7:22
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't have it in the in the questions,
7:25
Speaker 1: but it made me think of that.
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Speaker 2: I think there are some common themes. One is just
7:30
Speaker 2: a lack of priority for sleep, right, and that translates
7:34
Speaker 2: into these individuals tend to be very reactive to sleep.
7:39
Speaker 2: In other words, they don't think about sleep they don't
7:42
Speaker 2: plan for it. It's the last thing that happens in
7:44
Speaker 2: their day. Whenever they jump into bed is when sleep,
7:47
Speaker 2: is when they try to sleep, and that becomes very
7:51
Speaker 2: reactive versus I think those that are really leveraging the
7:54
Speaker 2: competitive advantage of sleep and getting the most out of
7:57
Speaker 2: their sleep are more proactive with planning their day, thinking
8:01
Speaker 2: about what they do in their evening to prepare to
8:04
Speaker 2: get better sleep, and then making making sure that's a
8:07
Speaker 2: part of how they approach their last hour before bedtime.
8:12
Speaker 2: And so they're not reacting when things aren't as great
8:16
Speaker 2: with their sleep or they have acute stressors and that
8:18
Speaker 2: can affect your sleep. But instead they're trying to plan
8:21
Speaker 2: ahead and know, I have an important project deadline game,
8:25
Speaker 2: I know I may not get the best sleep save
8:27
Speaker 2: the night before, or maybe I'm traveling so I need
8:30
Speaker 2: account for jet lag, and actually trying to implement strategies
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Speaker 2: and a plan in advance.
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Speaker 1: So that's really cool that you're mentioning that. I think
8:38
Speaker 1: you kind of do. Like a secret to success in
8:41
Speaker 1: sleep is planning ahead and planning and prioritizing it. I mean,
8:46
Speaker 1: I just saw this last night. I'm a big fan
8:48
Speaker 1: of Bravo and everybody knows that. And this guy is
8:51
Speaker 1: dating a new girl. She's coming out to the summer
8:54
Speaker 1: house for the first time, and he doesn't go out
8:57
Speaker 1: with his friends that he normally did, he doesn't stay
9:00
Speaker 1: out all night, and they give him a hard time. However,
9:03
Speaker 1: you could see how much better he was dealing with
9:07
Speaker 1: his girlfriend the next day. So I'm like, I was like, Wow,
9:10
Speaker 1: there you go, a perfect example. I know it's not
9:12
Speaker 1: something I follow all that well.
9:14
Speaker 2: No, I love that example. And so one challenge I
9:17
Speaker 2: have for individuals is to think about sleep not as
9:20
Speaker 2: the end of today, but as the beginning of tomorrow,
9:23
Speaker 2: because how you invest in your sleep, the choices that
9:26
Speaker 2: you make today, how you prepare, will set yourself up
9:29
Speaker 2: for really a better and more successful, happier, healthier tomorrow.
9:33
Speaker 2: And knowing that it can very much affect his relationships.
9:36
Speaker 1: You know, I have to ask because I'm a big
9:38
Speaker 1: Warrior fan and groupie. Anyway you work with andre Iguidal,
9:43
Speaker 1: I got his bobblehead right here, I have multiple bobbleheads.
9:47
Speaker 1: He was an X factor I think for them winning
9:51
Speaker 1: you know, championships back in the day. And you know,
9:55
Speaker 1: what was it like working with him and what were
9:57
Speaker 1: some of the things you help to achieve that helped
10:01
Speaker 1: the whole team achieve.
10:02
Speaker 2: It was wonderful getting to work with Andre because he's
10:05
Speaker 2: someone who actually asked for help with his lip, so
10:08
Speaker 2: he recognized that this was not an area that he
10:11
Speaker 2: had particularly optimized, although he was already a ten year
10:15
Speaker 2: veteran in the NBA when he asked for help. His
10:18
Speaker 2: pattern was that he would stay up quite late into
10:21
Speaker 2: the evening playing video games, sleep for a few hours,
10:24
Speaker 2: go to practice, play for a few hours, come home,
10:26
Speaker 2: take these very long two to three hour power naps.
10:29
Speaker 2: And as a tenure veteran, he was already an All star,
10:32
Speaker 2: but he knew that his career would end at some
10:35
Speaker 2: future time. The question was how could he prolong his
10:38
Speaker 2: career as long as possible and to be as healthy
10:42
Speaker 2: and perform at the top of his game. And I
10:45
Speaker 2: was introduced to Andre, and over the course of several months,
10:49
Speaker 2: we worked to recraft his sleep habits, both in the day,
10:52
Speaker 2: what he did to then prepare for better sleep at
10:55
Speaker 2: night time, and then think about how that integrated into
10:58
Speaker 2: his whole season in a really neat way. There was
11:01
Speaker 2: a wearable that quantified the performance improvements on the court
11:05
Speaker 2: and over that course. This is yeah, quite a while ago,
11:08
Speaker 2: so this is an older one, but it did help
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Speaker 2: him connect the dots understanding what happened objectively at night,
11:15
Speaker 2: which for him I think was this black box. Right.
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Speaker 2: We often fall asleep, don't know what happens, wake up
11:20
Speaker 2: in the morning, and don't always connect what we do
11:22
Speaker 2: at nighttime, how our body is restoring, repairing, recovering really
11:27
Speaker 2: does affect then the next day, and the quantification showed
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Speaker 2: that he had a twofold increase in his three point shot,
11:36
Speaker 2: he had a nine percent increase in his free throws,
11:40
Speaker 2: his fouls went down, his turnovers went down, his points
11:44
Speaker 2: permitted went up twenty nine percent, and so these were
11:48
Speaker 2: not just that one percent, which again athletes at this
11:51
Speaker 2: level are looking for in every aspect of their training,
11:55
Speaker 2: but this was arguably double digits.
11:58
Speaker 1: Can you go down to La plan the Clippers tonight.
12:01
Speaker 1: I think we need some guys. Steve Kerr, are you
12:03
Speaker 1: listening to this? You know? I mean, I'm sure did
12:06
Speaker 1: coach Kurt with you must have been aware of that.
12:08
Speaker 2: This was before Coach Kurr, but I have that Coach
12:11
Speaker 2: Kurt we did talk about sleep, and I did actually
12:14
Speaker 2: talk with the team a bit earlier about the importance
12:18
Speaker 2: of this, because it really isn't a competitive advantage that
12:20
Speaker 2: I think most athletes and teams aren't leveraging to the
12:23
Speaker 2: full capacity.
12:24
Speaker 1: I'm sure he would, Yeah, he would get it and
12:26
Speaker 1: probably has incorporated it.
12:28
Speaker 2: Making these changes in his sleep over several months really
12:32
Speaker 2: did have I think an impact because the following season,
12:35
Speaker 2: that's when the Wearers went to the first championship one
12:38
Speaker 2: he came back with the finals MVP.
12:41
Speaker 1: Right.
12:41
Speaker 2: He subsequently has had three more championships with them, and
12:46
Speaker 2: in hindsight, he extended his career ten years and that's
12:50
Speaker 2: a phenomenal extension in my opinion.
12:52
Speaker 1: So someone obviously he's given you credit for that, right.
12:56
Speaker 2: He's talked very openly about how important this has become
12:59
Speaker 2: and really, especially as he became later into his career,
13:03
Speaker 2: how it helped with injury recovery, obviously helping him just
13:07
Speaker 2: to recover and be at his best when needed, and
13:12
Speaker 2: he's been very vocal about that effect.
13:14
Speaker 1: Was there one thing that he thought was the most
13:18
Speaker 1: critical to fixing it? You know, Like, obviously we just
13:22
Speaker 1: talked about being proactive and planning and prioritizing that's number
13:26
Speaker 1: one he came to you for the help. Is there
13:29
Speaker 1: one trick of the trade or does that depend on
13:32
Speaker 1: everyone individually.
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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it was just one thing, because obviously
13:36
Speaker 2: we made adjustments throughout his day and how he approaches sleep.
13:39
Speaker 2: I do think having a strategy for dealing with that
13:42
Speaker 2: racing mind and thoughts that are running through your head
13:45
Speaker 2: posting for him having a structured approach to do that
13:48
Speaker 2: where he would do stretching and breathing exercises. Once he
13:53
Speaker 2: was finished processing everything for the day, then he would
13:56
Speaker 2: read a book. And this was almost this two part
13:58
Speaker 2: process that I think helped him be able to have
14:01
Speaker 2: this regularity each day and then have a system set
14:06
Speaker 2: up so that he would address the thoughts that were
14:09
Speaker 2: happening post game or what he needed to do the
14:11
Speaker 2: next day, and then having that ability to have dedicated
14:15
Speaker 2: time to wind down and relax to sleep.
14:19
Speaker 1: Is there data that shows sleep is one of the
14:22
Speaker 1: factors to longevity. Do you deal with that in this
14:26
Speaker 1: emerging area of longevity? Is that a big you know,
14:31
Speaker 1: X factor in longevity?
14:32
Speaker 2: Sleep is a huge factor for longevity and having a
14:36
Speaker 2: healthy long life span or health span is now what
14:40
Speaker 2: we're discussing for individuals. And you know, we talk about
14:45
Speaker 2: these pillars of health, but really I believe sleep is
14:48
Speaker 2: this foundational bedrock.
14:51
Speaker 1: Well we do, but I do you think it has
14:53
Speaker 1: the place it should have?
14:55
Speaker 2: Not yet, it's getting there, and it's in more of
14:58
Speaker 2: the conversations. I think individuals are more aware that their
15:03
Speaker 2: sleep health is an important factor. It's not just about
15:05
Speaker 2: exercise or nutrition, or mental health or connections. These are
15:11
Speaker 2: all very much important, but sleep really is the bedrock
15:17
Speaker 2: that will allow you to thrive in each of these
15:19
Speaker 2: other areas, and without it, you really are not your healthiest.
15:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess that's really important because you think it's
15:29
Speaker 1: like a badge of honor. Why is insufficient sleep considered
15:32
Speaker 1: a badge of honor for high performers and CEOs? And
15:37
Speaker 1: it just seems like there's this counterintuitive thing that goes
15:40
Speaker 1: on where sleep is not celebrated the way it could be.
15:45
Speaker 2: Definitely, I think the tides are turning and very much now.
15:49
Speaker 2: This badge of honor was highlighted by the CEOs, the
15:54
Speaker 2: executives and leaders of industry, but I think that that
15:59
Speaker 2: is changing very much so now and we have individuals
16:02
Speaker 2: like our elite athletes who really have shown that you
16:06
Speaker 2: are not healthy when you're getting four to five hours,
16:08
Speaker 2: you don't make good decisions. You're not actually going to
16:11
Speaker 2: be in the best shape cognitively or physically to perform
16:16
Speaker 2: if that is your job. When you're getting four five
16:19
Speaker 2: six hours of sleep and showing that when you actually
16:22
Speaker 2: do prioritize this, you're more efficient, you're more productive, you're
16:26
Speaker 2: able to make better decisions under pressure, and you're really
16:29
Speaker 2: going to be at your best each and every day.
16:31
Speaker 1: God, I wish I met you sooner. You know, I'm
16:33
Speaker 1: a founder, entrepreneur, I'm a chairman. Now why is it
16:38
Speaker 1: that it's so important for high performers? I mean, what
16:42
Speaker 1: is it what happens in sleep? What are the physical
16:45
Speaker 1: things that happen that make it better.
16:47
Speaker 2: There's so many processes physiologically that are occurring when you sleep,
16:52
Speaker 2: So you are doing work and your body and brain
16:56
Speaker 2: is doing restorative processes and that are going to help
17:01
Speaker 2: you be your best the next day. So to break
17:03
Speaker 2: it down a bit, we have some of the cognitive
17:05
Speaker 2: processes that are occurring. We have this interesting system called
17:08
Speaker 2: the glymphatic system in our brain. Think about it like
17:11
Speaker 2: the waste removal system, and so this process takes away
17:16
Speaker 2: the byproducts from the day and really flushes that out.
17:22
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because some of the newer findings are
17:25
Speaker 2: showing that that system particularly is active more so when
17:29
Speaker 2: you're sleeping than when you're awake. The glymphatic system is
17:33
Speaker 2: one that is very much active. That we need to
17:36
Speaker 2: give ourselves the time for it to clear away those
17:39
Speaker 2: waste products so that we can actually be refreshed, think
17:42
Speaker 2: clearly in the daytime, be ready to go. There's obviously
17:45
Speaker 2: a lot of learning and memory consolidation that happens during
17:49
Speaker 2: the night time so that you can actually take what
17:51
Speaker 2: you have learned or read or that skill development, consolidate it,
17:56
Speaker 2: hit the save button when you sleep, and then wake
17:58
Speaker 2: up and be able to retrieve that the next day.
18:01
Speaker 2: Mental health is really much affected by inadequate or poor sleep,
18:06
Speaker 2: and vice versa. There's that bidirectional relationship with mental health
18:11
Speaker 2: and then decision making, making good judgments. These are all
18:15
Speaker 2: going to be impacted by the duration and oftentimes the
18:19
Speaker 2: quality of your rest. If we move to like the
18:22
Speaker 2: physiology like how your body functions, proper sleep is important
18:25
Speaker 2: for our immune function to stay healthy. And that not
18:29
Speaker 2: to get sick. It's important for muscle recovery regeneration. You
18:33
Speaker 2: get the biggest pulse of growth hormone in your deep sleep,
18:37
Speaker 2: and so for an athlete that's performing, that's going to
18:40
Speaker 2: be a critical time to make sure that they're getting
18:42
Speaker 2: the physical recovery benefits. We know our hormones are often
18:47
Speaker 2: imbalanced if we're not getting sufficient sleep. Your appetite hormones
18:51
Speaker 2: that control when you're hungry or feel full can be misaligned,
18:56
Speaker 2: and so you can have changes in weight that is
18:59
Speaker 2: implicating implicated in insufficient sleep. A lot of inflammatory markers
19:05
Speaker 2: can be out of check when we're not getting the
19:07
Speaker 2: rest we require. And then there's the physical benefits and
19:11
Speaker 2: or decrements that we see with insufficient sleep. Can affect
19:15
Speaker 2: reaction time, accuracy, strength and conditioning, so performance in the
19:20
Speaker 2: weight room, then depending on sports specific measures on the
19:23
Speaker 2: field or on the court.
19:24
Speaker 1: This all makes so much sense. Does it matter when
19:27
Speaker 1: you sleep, as long as you get the right amount
19:29
Speaker 1: of sleep.
19:30
Speaker 2: I would say the lower hanging fruit for most people
19:32
Speaker 2: is going to be duration, since many of us fall
19:35
Speaker 2: short of the minimum that is recommended is seven hours
19:39
Speaker 2: every night by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. That's
19:41
Speaker 2: the minimum that they recommend for an adult to prevent
19:47
Speaker 2: health risk and performance decrements. But you might need eight,
19:50
Speaker 2: you might need closer to nine like me. So there
19:52
Speaker 2: is individual variability, but I would say that's the lower
19:55
Speaker 2: hanging fruit. But it's not just duration. To your point,
19:58
Speaker 2: the timing does matter. And when you go to bed
20:01
Speaker 2: and when you go and wake up in the morning time,
20:03
Speaker 2: how consistent or inconsistent that may be. Do you have
20:08
Speaker 2: this really variable schedule where you go to bed in
20:10
Speaker 2: a window of three hours from ten pm at night
20:13
Speaker 2: to one in the morning. Right, that inconsistency, we're starting
20:16
Speaker 2: to realize is probably not as helpful and actually quite
20:21
Speaker 2: harmful potentially then we may have previously expected.
20:25
Speaker 1: I mean, I would imagine travel is probably one of
20:28
Speaker 1: the big issues. So what executives, you know, sports figures,
20:33
Speaker 1: everybody's traveling all the time to so many different time zones.
20:37
Speaker 1: What recommendations do you have for these high performers, right
20:43
Speaker 1: that are simple and achievable.
20:46
Speaker 2: Travel is a challenge for everyone. So when you cross
20:49
Speaker 2: time zones, your internal body clock becomes desynchronized from your
20:55
Speaker 2: external environment, and that's when we experience jetlag where you
20:58
Speaker 2: can feel fatigue, tired, you can have digestive issues, you
21:02
Speaker 2: could just feel off during the day and you sometimes
21:05
Speaker 2: can't sleep when you want to or feel more tired
21:08
Speaker 2: at other points in the daytime. So that's what jetlag is.
21:12
Speaker 1: Now.
21:12
Speaker 2: My strategies for jetlag is to break down every trip
21:15
Speaker 2: into a pre flight, in flight, and postflight phase. So
21:20
Speaker 2: you have three phases, and in each phase there are
21:23
Speaker 2: things that you can do to try to minimize that
21:26
Speaker 2: jet lag and maximize the chances that you will feel
21:29
Speaker 2: well and perform ideally when you arrive at the new location.
21:34
Speaker 2: So some of the things that you can do in there.
21:36
Speaker 2: One before you fly, make sure you're not sure on sleep,
21:39
Speaker 2: because being sleep deprived and getting onto the airplane makes
21:42
Speaker 2: that jet lag worse. Now, depending on which direction you're traveling,
21:47
Speaker 2: eastward travel is different than westward travel on that body clock, right,
21:52
Speaker 2: I'm sure you might have experienced, is it. So eastward
21:55
Speaker 2: travel is harder on our body clock than it is
21:58
Speaker 2: westward travel. And the reason why is because our body
22:01
Speaker 2: clock is actually longer than twenty four hours. It's twenty
22:04
Speaker 2: four hours and twelve minutes, and so when we need
22:08
Speaker 2: exposure to the sunlight every day to lock our body
22:11
Speaker 2: clock onto twenty four hours. Now, when you travel eastward,
22:16
Speaker 2: we're trying to shorten our day. We're trying to shift
22:18
Speaker 2: that clock and advance it, and so that is more
22:22
Speaker 2: challenging on our bodies physiologically than just going westward any long,
22:27
Speaker 2: getting our day and staying up later. Eastward travel is
22:29
Speaker 2: more challenging. But the things that you can do before
22:32
Speaker 2: flying is you could two to three days earlier than
22:35
Speaker 2: your flight, shift your bedtime back half hour or or
22:39
Speaker 2: an hour if you're motivated, and then wake up a
22:42
Speaker 2: half hour hour earlier get sun exposure. And if you
22:46
Speaker 2: do this for two to three days gradually, then you
22:48
Speaker 2: will have shifted that body clock. So but the time
22:50
Speaker 2: you get onto the flight, maybe you only have one
22:52
Speaker 2: time zone left to shift instead of three, because the
22:56
Speaker 2: rule of thumb is that for every time zone you shift,
22:58
Speaker 2: it takes one day to act mate. So if you're
23:01
Speaker 2: here on the west coast you go into the East coast,
23:03
Speaker 2: three time zones means three days to acclimate physiologically. Wow,
23:07
Speaker 2: you may feel better after a day, but your body
23:09
Speaker 2: really hasn't caught up yet.
23:10
Speaker 1: What about drugs? I mean, do they help or not?
23:14
Speaker 1: In the sleep gummies and all these new things and
23:17
Speaker 1: THHC and CBD and blah blah blah.
23:20
Speaker 2: Great question. The big picture, there are prescription sleep aids,
23:24
Speaker 2: over the counter sleep aids, and then supplements, and you
23:29
Speaker 2: could share with us a bit of fires sleep.
23:31
Speaker 1: I would love to hear it. None of them work largely.
23:36
Speaker 2: You know, there's a time and place for prescription sleep
23:39
Speaker 2: aids as a short term transition and bridge when there's
23:43
Speaker 2: maybe an acute stressor or a cute period and where
23:46
Speaker 2: there's difficulty sleeping. But partnered ideally with some of these
23:50
Speaker 2: lifestyle behavior modifications that we know the evidence is much
23:53
Speaker 2: stronger that really support better sleep long term. Now, with
23:57
Speaker 2: the over the counter sleep aids, it's not one that
23:59
Speaker 2: we general want you to be using every night. Some
24:02
Speaker 2: of them merging literature suggests and association at least at
24:05
Speaker 2: moderate to higher frequency use with like early dementia. So
24:08
Speaker 2: not when we want every day. And then some of
24:11
Speaker 2: the supplements, you know, some people swear by them, love them.
24:15
Speaker 2: There's the whole you know, there's the whole gamut of
24:19
Speaker 2: melatonin's heart cherry juice L three A mean we could
24:23
Speaker 2: keep going on. But I will say that some of
24:26
Speaker 2: them don't necessarily have as strong evidence that they specifically
24:29
Speaker 2: help with sleep versus I think the vast majority of
24:33
Speaker 2: people who are really trying to leverage them for some
24:36
Speaker 2: of those claims. So I would say, if you use it,
24:39
Speaker 2: just be mindful where you're getting them the sources. Some
24:42
Speaker 2: of them, like melatonin, are not FDA regulated, so there
24:44
Speaker 2: could be a wide variance of how much is actually
24:47
Speaker 2: in the supplement that you're consuming. And then you know,
24:51
Speaker 2: really try to see if this is something that is
24:54
Speaker 2: beneficial and or maybe you can partner that with some
24:57
Speaker 2: of the lifestyle behavior modifications.
25:01
Speaker 1: What are your greatest hits? I mean, obviously Andre Guidala,
25:05
Speaker 1: I think maybe we talked earlier. You helped Seattle win
25:09
Speaker 1: the Super Bowl? Like how did how did that go? Like? Amazing?
25:13
Speaker 2: They won the Super Bowl?
25:14
Speaker 1: So was there all? Was it the whole team, the coaches,
25:17
Speaker 1: everybody or just certain people? Like how did did you
25:21
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about that? Yes?
25:23
Speaker 2: For sure, So I was. So this season I was
25:27
Speaker 2: working with the Seattle Seahawks, and I've been with them
25:29
Speaker 2: for about three years, helping them build out a program
25:33
Speaker 2: to optimize sleep recovery travel for their individual athletes, but
25:38
Speaker 2: really for the organization as a whole. So what I
25:42
Speaker 2: do most frequently is working with organizations and pro sports
25:45
Speaker 2: teams to really leverage the sleep science and apply it
25:49
Speaker 2: into optimizing how they manage their day to day schedule,
25:54
Speaker 2: how they travel, and then ultimately with individuals, helping them
25:58
Speaker 2: customize a plan so that they themselves can get better sleep.
26:02
Speaker 1: So do you work with the trainers, the coach, the players,
26:05
Speaker 1: who's your who's that client? Like, who's who brings you
26:08
Speaker 1: in for that?
26:09
Speaker 2: All of them? So I am. I'm a consultant to
26:13
Speaker 2: the organization as a whole, and I do work with
26:17
Speaker 2: all of those providers and specifically also with individuals.
26:20
Speaker 1: So did you get a trophy?
26:23
Speaker 2: Crossing our fingers?
26:25
Speaker 1: He sounds like you deserve one, I mean right in
26:28
Speaker 1: a very new way.
26:28
Speaker 2: Surprised seventeen I won the Super Bowl ring with the
26:33
Speaker 2: Philadelphia Eagles. Oh wow, yes, and so I you know
26:36
Speaker 2: we'll see this year, but I doally there.
26:38
Speaker 1: Would be so Jason, that's amazing, I you know, because
26:44
Speaker 1: fly eagles fly, But.
26:45
Speaker 2: It's amazing because you know, it's an organization that has
26:48
Speaker 2: really embraced the sleep science and recognizing that this is
26:51
Speaker 2: something that they can leverage. Mike McDonald, the head coach,
26:55
Speaker 2: really understands that the travel component can be one where
26:59
Speaker 2: if we have good body clock strategies, it's going to
27:01
Speaker 2: help them when they're on the road. Who he has
27:04
Speaker 2: arguably the second best NFL record on the road in
27:08
Speaker 2: history over the last two seasons, and so I think
27:12
Speaker 2: that's been really strong point of the team buying in
27:16
Speaker 2: and recognizing that this is something that will help them.
27:19
Speaker 1: Do you hear from a lot of online gamblers that
27:21
Speaker 1: you know, would they want to know who your picks are?
27:25
Speaker 1: I like, who you've worked with, because I mean if
27:27
Speaker 1: we picked my fantasy team next year about all the
27:31
Speaker 1: because I had Sam Darnold, you know throughout the season
27:34
Speaker 1: as a quarterback, you know we could pick. If you
27:38
Speaker 1: told us who the best sleepers were, we might actually
27:41
Speaker 1: game it. Do you ever hear from anyone about that?
27:43
Speaker 2: I heard more. Yeah, I had more bookies contacting me
27:47
Speaker 2: specifically during the ESPN Schedule Alert project over those three seasons.
27:53
Speaker 2: There was definitely a lot of chatter about how the
27:56
Speaker 2: travel my picks. Because we we we publish those games
28:01
Speaker 2: in advance of the season, so that you could follow
28:04
Speaker 2: along and see how did this actually play out, which
28:06
Speaker 2: was incredibly scary to know that this could go well
28:09
Speaker 2: or not well. But in the end, over three seasons
28:12
Speaker 2: of a seventy six to eighty six percent, Okay, I mean.
28:15
Speaker 1: That puts you into their algorithms. So you talked about
28:20
Speaker 1: sleep science, What purpose does dreaming serve in sleep? Cyclist?
28:25
Speaker 1: You know, are there certain elements of sleep that are
28:28
Speaker 1: more important than owthers scientifically?
28:30
Speaker 2: So all the stages of sleep are important. And yes,
28:33
Speaker 2: there is the deep sleep that we get which is
28:36
Speaker 2: important for muscle recovery regeneration. That's when you get that
28:40
Speaker 2: biggest pulse of growth hormone. So physiologically there are benefits
28:44
Speaker 2: definitely of that deep sleep. Then there's that dreaming sleep
28:47
Speaker 2: you mentioned. It's called rapid eye movement sleep, and that
28:51
Speaker 2: is when we predominantly get most of our dreams. Now,
28:54
Speaker 2: all of us dream at night time. Some of us
28:56
Speaker 2: remember them better than others, others don't remember them all
28:59
Speaker 2: the time. But we go through these stages of sleep
29:01
Speaker 2: in cycles. So we go through light sleep, that deep sleep,
29:05
Speaker 2: and then that rapid eye movement sleep, and this cycles
29:07
Speaker 2: every ninety minutes to one hundred and twenty minutes and
29:10
Speaker 2: you get about five or six cycles, depending on the
29:12
Speaker 2: duration that you give yourself to sleep at night.
29:15
Speaker 1: So is work nine to five and sleep ten to
29:18
Speaker 1: seven the right timing or our sleep patterns miss align,
29:23
Speaker 1: you know, with our biology? Does it matter when we
29:25
Speaker 1: sleep like this? Do you think it's affecting us?
29:28
Speaker 2: It does matter when you sleep. I still think the
29:31
Speaker 2: lower hanging fruit is just having consistency. So finding a
29:35
Speaker 2: consistent pattern for you and then getting the duration minimally
29:39
Speaker 2: seven hours is going to be the starting point for
29:43
Speaker 2: most trying to perfect the exact you know, one hour shift,
29:47
Speaker 2: I think is less valuable than trying to build a
29:50
Speaker 2: system that works in your lifestyle and that you can
29:53
Speaker 2: maintain and sustain over the course of the next month
29:57
Speaker 2: or the next couple of months. Shift workers are a
30:02
Speaker 2: different bucket where they're trying to sleep during the daytime.
30:05
Speaker 2: So if you're asking about sleeping in very different hours
30:09
Speaker 2: of the day, there's a lot of other complications that
30:11
Speaker 2: come down the road when we're not sleeping at the
30:13
Speaker 2: time that our body is physiologically, you know, essentially wired
30:17
Speaker 2: to do. Shift workers often will get less sleep than
30:20
Speaker 2: the average nocturnal adult that sleeps in regular hours, so
30:25
Speaker 2: they'll tend to get closer to like six hours of
30:27
Speaker 2: sleep than seven. There's unfortunately higher associations of a lot
30:31
Speaker 2: of health conditions down the road with chronic shift work,
30:35
Speaker 2: and so nothing, unfortunately is ideal when you have a
30:39
Speaker 2: very shifting schedule that rotates through your week.
30:42
Speaker 1: So what matters more consistent bedtime or wake time?
30:47
Speaker 2: Both are important. Bedtime and wake time consistently. If I
30:49
Speaker 2: had to choose, I would say consistent wake up time.
30:52
Speaker 2: And the reason why is because our bodies are wired
30:55
Speaker 2: to wake up at the same time every morning they are.
30:58
Speaker 2: And it also yeah, and then also is a way
31:01
Speaker 2: that it locks your body clock and anchors it for
31:04
Speaker 2: the day. It's almost like that your timer will start
31:07
Speaker 2: in the morning time so that your sleep drive will
31:10
Speaker 2: accumulate through the day so you're able to sleep and
31:13
Speaker 2: an appropriate and consistent time at night time. And then
31:17
Speaker 2: as well as that body clock gets anchored on that
31:19
Speaker 2: same wake up time every morning. So if I had
31:22
Speaker 2: to choose, it would be start with the same wake
31:24
Speaker 2: up time. Choose what works for you.
31:27
Speaker 1: Why do people get away with less than more? I mean,
31:29
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's four or six versus eight
31:31
Speaker 1: and ten. Why do people like you said you do
31:34
Speaker 1: eight or nine?
31:35
Speaker 2: Why we have individual variability of how much we each
31:39
Speaker 2: require every night? And transparently, I don't do well on
31:44
Speaker 2: seven hours of sleep. I do much better on like
31:46
Speaker 2: eight and a half.
31:47
Speaker 1: Or nine hours. Last night, well last.
31:50
Speaker 2: Night, last night, I actually had eight hours.
31:52
Speaker 1: Okay, that's why you seem so so chill.
31:56
Speaker 2: We can all survive, and we've all functioned on less
31:58
Speaker 2: than adequate sleep, all all done the five hours of
32:01
Speaker 2: six hours and gotten by arguably maybe perform pretty well
32:04
Speaker 2: on that, And you can do that temporarily, but it
32:08
Speaker 2: won't be something that you can sustain long term and
32:11
Speaker 2: perform and be at your best.
32:13
Speaker 1: Makes sense? Napping, I love them. How do you guide
32:19
Speaker 1: your clients to fit napping into it? So you love
32:21
Speaker 1: them and so you recommend them, I'd never do it.
32:24
Speaker 1: What's the benefit?
32:26
Speaker 2: Short naps, if kept to twenty to thirty minutes, can
32:29
Speaker 2: give you a boost and alertness and performance for a
32:31
Speaker 2: couple of hours. Wow, It's not a replacement for sleep
32:34
Speaker 2: at night. So the reality is, if you actually are
32:37
Speaker 2: well rested every night, you shouldn't need to nap. You
32:41
Speaker 2: shouldn't want to nap or crave those little little breaks
32:45
Speaker 2: in your day to try and get a power nap in.
32:47
Speaker 2: But the reality is that many of us are sleep
32:50
Speaker 2: deprived or don't get the sleep that we require, and
32:53
Speaker 2: so this can be a countermeasure to give you a
32:56
Speaker 2: little bit of a boost to get through say that
32:58
Speaker 2: later part of your day or into or evening, or
33:01
Speaker 2: say in advance of an important meeting or presentation or
33:05
Speaker 2: game and competition.
33:06
Speaker 1: What if you sleep for one or two hours the long.
33:09
Speaker 2: Naps sometimes have you ever done that and you woken
33:12
Speaker 2: up feeling more groggy or more sluggish? I would say
33:16
Speaker 2: the majority of individuals. When you do take longer naps,
33:19
Speaker 2: you can feel what we call sleep inertia, where you
33:22
Speaker 2: wake up out our deeper stages of sleep and can
33:24
Speaker 2: feel sluggish and groggy, which can persist for a half hour,
33:27
Speaker 2: sometimes a little bit longer. So not a great state
33:29
Speaker 2: if you need to go out and do something immediately
33:32
Speaker 2: to be cognitively primed. So and then on top of that,
33:37
Speaker 2: the long naps can also affect your sleep at night time,
33:40
Speaker 2: so it can mean that your drive to sleep isn't
33:42
Speaker 2: as high and that can delay when you want to sleep,
33:45
Speaker 2: and it can make it more challenging. So I don't
33:48
Speaker 2: recommend doing the long naps very much. To keep them
33:52
Speaker 2: short twenty to thirty minutes, you'll feel more alert, it
33:55
Speaker 2: keeps you in lighter stages of sleep, and it won't
33:58
Speaker 2: affect your sleep at night. You could also do the napacino.
34:01
Speaker 2: Have you heard about the napacino?
34:02
Speaker 1: No? What is that?
34:04
Speaker 2: The napatiino was one of my favorite tools. So do
34:08
Speaker 2: you drink caffeine?
34:09
Speaker 1: So I do, and I was going to I have
34:10
Speaker 1: it here.
34:11
Speaker 2: If you do drink caffeine, you can take your caffe
34:13
Speaker 2: to beverage. Caffeine will start to kick in in about
34:17
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes. So if you take your beverage and then
34:21
Speaker 2: you go take a twenty to thirty minute power nap
34:24
Speaker 2: and you're able to fall asleep within ten minutes approximately,
34:27
Speaker 2: then when you wake up, both the caffeine alerting effects
34:31
Speaker 2: and the benefits of the short power nap will have
34:35
Speaker 2: and then okay, and then they're synergistic in terms of
34:39
Speaker 2: is that in.
34:40
Speaker 1: More innovation in sleep tech? I mean, you know, what
34:43
Speaker 1: are the big innovations in sleep technology you're excited about?
34:46
Speaker 2: There are emerging targets now to potentially address sleepapana through medications.
34:53
Speaker 2: The first one was approved last year specifically related to
34:58
Speaker 2: weight related sleep apnea. But there are a couple of
35:02
Speaker 2: others that are coming down the line that could be
35:04
Speaker 2: operating in a different mechanism to try and be another
35:08
Speaker 2: adjunctive therapy to for example, sleep PAP for individuals who
35:13
Speaker 2: have so seapap. It doesn't have to be the Darth
35:17
Speaker 2: Vader Elephant knows that. I think a lot of people
35:18
Speaker 2: have this perception of Now, the mass are quite slim.
35:22
Speaker 2: They can sit just under your nose and really it
35:24
Speaker 2: can come up to the top of your head, so
35:26
Speaker 2: there's not an apparatus in the front. You can easily
35:29
Speaker 2: disconnect and be able to get up during the night time.
35:32
Speaker 2: And I have plenty of pro elite athletes on seapap
35:36
Speaker 2: because for them, their sleep is their job right. They
35:40
Speaker 2: need the recovery time, and they're different masks and different
35:44
Speaker 2: fits and they work very effectively, so they've gone better
35:48
Speaker 2: over the years. And SEAPAP is, yes, our gold standard
35:51
Speaker 2: therapy for sleep apnan, but no, that's not the only one.
35:54
Speaker 2: We have Dental oral devices kind of like a mouthguard
35:57
Speaker 2: could be an alternative for some Yes, they're our surgical
36:00
Speaker 2: interventions depending on how your anatomy is. There now are
36:05
Speaker 2: medications that are coming down the line that might be
36:07
Speaker 2: adjunctive to these other options. So the space is evolving,
36:10
Speaker 2: and I think it's an exciting time because there's going
36:13
Speaker 2: to meet more options in the coming years. Besides that,
36:17
Speaker 2: for sleep apnea, I do think there's technologies like cooling
36:20
Speaker 2: mattress covers and pads that can help you regulate the
36:22
Speaker 2: temperature of your bed more quickly.
36:24
Speaker 1: So I sleep what is that about?
36:29
Speaker 2: The eight sleep is a mattress cover and it goes
36:32
Speaker 2: over your current mattress. It is split in two so
36:35
Speaker 2: that if you had a bed partner and you have
36:38
Speaker 2: very different temperature preferences, they can be independently controlled. And
36:42
Speaker 2: this allows you to decrease the temperature of your mattress
36:46
Speaker 2: down to I believe they do around fifty five degrees.
36:49
Speaker 1: And then one biotherapy.
36:52
Speaker 2: But it allows you then to cool down much more quickly.
36:55
Speaker 2: Then sometimes you may be able to do just with
36:57
Speaker 2: the ambient air with AC I know temperature is an
37:01
Speaker 2: important physiological signal because as you fall asleep, your temperature,
37:05
Speaker 2: your core temperature drops and you reach the lowest point
37:08
Speaker 2: in your core temperature during the night time. For a
37:10
Speaker 2: lot of individuals, they feel like they run hot. For
37:13
Speaker 2: some of my athletes, they are they're very amped up
37:16
Speaker 2: after the game or playing late into the night, and
37:18
Speaker 2: so they need to cool down much more quickly. And
37:21
Speaker 2: so this is an interesting tool that has been pretty
37:24
Speaker 2: pretty amazing for a lot of the high performers and
37:27
Speaker 2: athletes that I work with.
37:28
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and order that. So
37:32
Speaker 1: I always ask, you know, as we sort of come
37:36
Speaker 1: to the end of these things, you know, what are
37:39
Speaker 1: you trying to get real honest about right now? Either
37:41
Speaker 1: for yourself or for your area of expertise.
37:46
Speaker 2: I would just say, you can make small but practical
37:50
Speaker 2: changes to your sleep starting tonight, even if it means
37:53
Speaker 2: starting a five minute wind down routine or choosing to
37:58
Speaker 2: stop your caffeine earlier in the day and structuring your
38:01
Speaker 2: day in a way that allows you to hit your
38:03
Speaker 2: targeted bedtime. If you do that every day this week,
38:07
Speaker 2: those changes will add up, and that can be very
38:10
Speaker 2: transformative in your life. Really, because so many of us
38:14
Speaker 2: get used to feeling tired and worn down and needing
38:18
Speaker 2: caffeine or power nap to get through the day, and
38:21
Speaker 2: that's not how life should be. Right, When you really
38:24
Speaker 2: do experience quality sleep every single day, it can be
38:30
Speaker 2: completely eye opening that you never want to go back
38:33
Speaker 2: to what your life was before as this life walking zombie.
38:36
Speaker 1: Like when someone says to you, I'll sleep when I'm dad.
38:38
Speaker 1: You know, do you think I think that's very sad?
38:40
Speaker 1: Actually sad?
38:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like, why would you want to delay
38:44
Speaker 2: this process that is so beneficial for your brain, your body,
38:49
Speaker 2: for how you're going to interact with your family, your friends,
38:52
Speaker 2: your coworkers and allow yourself to be the best version
38:56
Speaker 2: of yourself every day? Why would you not want that
38:58
Speaker 2: every night?
38:59
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's leave our viewers listeners with some
39:03
Speaker 1: fast takes on. You know, many sleep optimizing tools are
39:07
Speaker 1: pushed our way, right, there's articles and it's like a
39:10
Speaker 1: cottage industry. Right, It's like weight loss used to be.
39:13
Speaker 1: You know, this game is called yea or na. I'll
39:17
Speaker 1: ask your question. You say yay or nay if it's
39:20
Speaker 1: the real deal or a gimmick. Okay okay. White noise
39:25
Speaker 1: machines yay okay. Blackout shades yay, earplugs yay. Huh mouth
39:34
Speaker 1: tape depends cool temperatures. Yeah, sounds like that's I mean
39:40
Speaker 1: that I learned today. So thank you. Setting a nose
39:43
Speaker 1: screen rule for thirty minutes before sleep in thirty minutes
39:47
Speaker 1: after waking, definitely, yay. I don't do that. Alcohol. Alcohol
39:52
Speaker 1: in general.
39:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, alcohol, I'm not saying don't have your tequila once
39:56
Speaker 2: in a while. Let's just be smart about like when
39:59
Speaker 2: you're consuming it. Right, So, if you have an important
40:01
Speaker 2: meeting presentation the next day, maybe that's not the night
40:04
Speaker 2: before to do that. If you're out socializing, maybe you
40:08
Speaker 2: sub that out with a mocktail. So with alcohol, the
40:11
Speaker 2: reality is that it can affect the quality of your sleep,
40:15
Speaker 2: at least with moderate levels of consumption. It can cause
40:18
Speaker 2: more awakenings during the night time and so it can
40:21
Speaker 2: lead to fragmented sleep. People also can wake up for
40:24
Speaker 2: the more groggy and sluggish with alcohol on board. So again,
40:28
Speaker 2: it's being smart about when you consume and then knowing
40:32
Speaker 2: that it could have those effects.
40:33
Speaker 1: Subsequently, where can we go to learn more about you?
40:38
Speaker 2: Thanks for asking us what you do. Yeah, I'm on
40:40
Speaker 2: the typical social platforms. You can find me at doctor
40:44
Speaker 2: Sharry Ma that's d r C h E R I
40:47
Speaker 2: M A H. Or you can go to my website.
40:49
Speaker 2: I'm going to start a newsletter so if you want
40:51
Speaker 2: ongoing tips and strategies, I'll have headlines and to keep
40:55
Speaker 2: up with the latest. That's at www dot doctor Sharry
40:58
Speaker 2: ma dot com.
41:00
Speaker 1: I know for me personally, this has been really helpful.
41:03
Speaker 1: This is like, what a great session, But I know
41:06
Speaker 1: so many people who will get value out of it,
41:09
Speaker 1: So thanks so much for that. And you know, I
41:14
Speaker 1: don't think I'll be burning the midnight oil as much
41:16
Speaker 1: as I used to.
41:18
Speaker 2: Awesome. I hope there's one thing that you're gonna change
41:20
Speaker 2: about your sleep tonight. And thanks for having me on.
41:24
Speaker 1: I will thank you for coming all the way here
41:26
Speaker 1: to do it. Such a pleasure to meet you. Hey, everyone,
41:30
Speaker 1: thanks for watching. I really appreciate that you take the
41:33
Speaker 1: time to listen to this and tune in, so please subscribe,
41:38
Speaker 1: follow I've got a lot of amazing guess you're gonna
41:40
Speaker 1: learn a lot and you're gonna feel a lot better
41:43
Speaker 1: because you did it.