Latest / Gilbert. K Show / David Barbee Interview: Emmy-Winning Sound Designer Behind Criminal Minds, What We Do in the Shadows & More

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David Barbee Interview: Emmy-Winning Sound Designer Behind Criminal Minds, What We Do in the Shadows & More · Gilbert. K Show

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Today on the Gilbert K Show, we're going behind the sound with Emmy winning sound effects editor and sound designer David Barbie, whose work includes Star Trek, Criminal Minds, The Umbrella Academy, and What We Do in the Shadows.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: From creating tension to making supernatural worlds feel real, David proves that what we hear can be just as powerful as what we see.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give a big welcome to the one and only David Barbie.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Hey David, pleasure to have you on the show.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: How are you today?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm great.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks for attending.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we're gonna start the uh discovering the sound of storytelling.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, every amazing career begins somewhere.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when you were growing up, what were you as a kid?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh is there a childhood memory that still inspires your creativity today?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, what was I like as a kid?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was a pretty outgoing kid.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, some would call me the class clown.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, grew up a sports fan, a music fan.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um TV and movies, of course, I grew up with that.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my mother was a big fan and kind of romanticized the entertainment industry to some extent.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she loved the ability of a good movie or TV show to remove you from the day-to-day.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I had that instilled from me and into me at a very early age.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think even more you know, to your point about specific memory, uh, I was always a very aurally aware child.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have a real clear memory of walking out of my elementary school when I was, I don't know, second grade, and noticing that the Mercedes-Benz sounds really different than that VW bug park behind it.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I just kind of gravitated to sound.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I also was an only child.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I grew up in the day, you know, this is hard to believe.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't have iPhones at one point, and we didn't have iPads, and there was no 24-hour cartoon network.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to find ways as an only child to entertain myself.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I would do sometimes is play with sounds in my head and think about what else could that be?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: What else could that be used for?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I had no idea I was preparing myself for my career, but I was playing with that already when I was a very young age.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think I have a specific thing, but yeah, little did I know I was prepping myself.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: But did you like record uh uh sounds or something?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, I didn't really have the tech for that.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I like had a you know a cassette deck with a little cheesy microphone on it, you know.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I did stuff with my voice, you know, like played around like that kind of thing.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um didn't really record anything.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't start to really understand what the possibilities were until later in life.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Were your family in the film industry or music or no?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Nope.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: No, my father was worked at UCLA for his entire career, and my mother kind of did a variety of different jobs, worked at a church for being an administrator and did a bunch of different things.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I had no actual connections to Hollywood whatsoever.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so before you you ever worked in Hollywood, you were already fascinated by the sound with the movies and TV.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a moment later in life when you realized sound design was the career that you wanted to pursue?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll tell you what.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: When I was a really, really little kid, my parents, the first movie I can remember going to go see, my parents took me to this little sci-fi movie called Star Wars.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: And they took me, it was at a drive-in theater, and so it was on one of those little cheese ball metal boxes that you hung on the door of the window, right to hear it.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: And even on that lousy sound system, the TIE fighters, the laser blasters, the lightsabers all knocked me over.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like maybe five at that moment.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the idea that these worlds could be created totally fascinated me.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then somehow I drifted off of it.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: By the time I graduated high school, I was actually thinking I wanted to work in radio, and I got into college and started doing a little work in radio, and I loved the production side of it.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I did a little work on air uh from like one to five in the morning or whatever.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I'd listened back, and I was terrible.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was really just god-awful as an on-air person.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I didn't want the life.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Radio at the time was like live in any city, be good at any genre, that you had to be willing to pick up and move all the time.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that was when I finally came back to it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: I finally said, Oh, wait, you know what?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: That thing I was playing with before, sound for picture, sound for movies.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's revisit that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't like really lock in that that was what I wanted to do until I was 20, 21, something like that.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's amazing.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, sound effects editor helped create words that audiences believe in without ever being seen on screen.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: How did you first discover this profession and what made you fall in love with it?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think the Star Wars thing made me fall in love with it early.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um but as far as discovering it, you know, I grew up in LA.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: So being exposed to the entertainment industry, my mother always made sure to make me understand that it wasn't just the actors, that there's directors and all these people behind the camera and makeup artists and camera, you know, costume and everybody.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I kind of have and I also played little league baseball with a kid whose dad was a mixer and won Oscars for his mixing.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I knew the job was there.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't put it together.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: It took me a minute to kind of land.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: How would you know?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, that's true.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so breaking into Hollywood isn't easy.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: What was the biggest challenge you faced early in your career?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And what lesson from those early years has stayed with you ever since?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think the biggest challenge, I think it still remains the challenge today, even though technology and everything has changed.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can be making web episodes on YouTube and they can be amazing.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: But if someone in the industry doesn't find out about them, it doesn't matter.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I still think it's about knowing someone and even more them knowing you.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's the thing.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: I um when I was in college and I knew I didn't want to work in radio anymore, is it just so happened my advisor on campus was good friends with the chief engineer at a facility called Skywalker Sound South.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I got to go an intern while they were mixing true lies and natural-born killers.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I got to fly up to the Bay Area and go and see Skywalker Ranch.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then the really fortuitous thing was after my internship ended, a couple months later, Skywalker announced they were selling that facility to a company called Todd A.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that this was great, but what that does is some people stay, but other people scatter to other facilities.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So when I graduated college a year later, I knew people at that company, I knew people at Fox, I knew people at university.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, all of a sudden, I knew people all over the place and they knew who I was.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I was blessed, lucky in ways I can't explain.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: The universe wanted me to do this.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So um I was lucky, I got out of college and I actually had two job offers and was able to pick.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Very fortunate.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a full-time job, not the as a contractor or consultant.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, my first gig was I was a department assistant for a company called Todd AO, and they were doing the old Beverly Hills 90210 and Melrose Place, and um, they did all this Aaron Spelling shows at the time, and uh you know, other shows like The Pretender and all these things.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was a huge department, but um, you know, but to your question, I was lucky with that moment when the when the company was sold, people who knew me already were, and then I had them in different places.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's something that I've done a little like speaking at colleges and whatever, and people will ask me that, and it's like, you know, you gotta get a job doing anything.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Answer the phones and make coffee.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Let people know once you're there what it is you want to do.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe someone will want to see your work, stay late and learn.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let them learn who you are, and then let the universe unfold.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, if you've got a good attitude, you show you're willing to work, the opportunity will come.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I've been very, very, very blessed in my career.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: The opportunities came.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is there is there um a tip or recommendation you wish somebody told you when you were going through your career?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think the hardest lesson that I learned, apart from having all of that luck, um, was to not take criticism personally.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's really, really hard, especially when you're sitting in this chair where you're working as an editor or a designer.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: You have to care very, very deeply about the project you are working on while it is in your room.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: The minute it leaves, it's not my project anymore.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: It now belongs to the mixers.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: It goes back to being the client.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And they have their opinions.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to no longer care.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, you have to have a switch to flip it 180 degrees.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And if they say, We really don't like the car engine you used in that piece, we need a different engine.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: You can't get twisted up about the fact that you know, but I love that engine.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't matter, it's not your show anymore, not your movie.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just go find another engine, go and replace it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: It took me a while to figure that out, and I'll be honest, I still struggle with it at times, but it's the biggest thing, I think, that is the hardest part is to care and then not.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna take our first break and we're gonna play a game this or that, and it's a rapid-fire game for the audience to get to know you.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um are you ready, David?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Bring it on.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: In some instances, you can say uh both, I guess.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so science fiction or horror?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Science fiction.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Starship Engines or Monster Rores.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm gonna go Starship Engines on that one.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Recording in the studio or recording in the field?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Recording in the field.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh coffee or tea during long editing sessions?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh coffee, no time limits.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Every time.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Coffee, please.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Analog gear or digital tools.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Digital tools.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Big Hollywood blockbuster or independent film.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm a sound guy.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: The independent films don't have the budget to blow stuff up, so I'm gonna go with the big blockbuster movie.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Action sequences or quiet emotional moments?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, am I working on the movie or am I watching the movie?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm working on it, big action sequence for sure.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh comedy or drama.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Probably drama.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Although I love to laugh.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody's a tough call there.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Headphones or studio speakers?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Studio speakers.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, Oscar Knight or Emmy Knight?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oscar Knight.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, uh, we're gonna move on to our next segment: Building Hollywood's biggest worlds.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: One of your early major projects was CSI New York.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Crime dramas rely heavily on tension and realism.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: What did working on that series teach you that helped shape the rest of your career?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: The CSIs are so diverse.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what did that show teach me?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: What didn't it teach me?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't think we had a submarine episode, but we had just about everything else.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, vehicles and weapons and weird sound design, and we had an episode that was all inside a video game.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to design a video game inside the show.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, there was just from that, and honestly, you can tack onto that.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: I did a show called Angel before that, which was a spin-off of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that was kind of similar, but now you've also got demons in those monster vocals you brought up before.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: By the time I was done with those two shows, I felt like I had a good foundation to do just about everything because I had had to at one point or another.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was huge moving forward into my career.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now, like, you know, you bring up a whatever it is, bring it on.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I at least have an idea of how to start.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, the variety was the gift.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So working on Star Trek meant helping bring one of the most iconic science fiction franchise ever created to life.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a particular sound or sequence that challenged you the most?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you approach it?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, I want to say Star Trek was a massive gift.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I want to be clear, I was not one of the main people on the crew.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was brought on, I think I worked on it three, maybe four weeks.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so part of the gift for me was getting to work with that team.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because honestly, they the supervisors, Mark Steckinger, Alan Rankin, uh, sound designers, Harry Cohen, Ann Shabelli, Tim Walston, these are people that I had direct interaction with, and the crew was way bigger than that.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Getting to work on their stuff, seeing the way they think it, the way they approach a feature of that level, um, it's a different approach.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I'll give you a quick example.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: Harry Cohen was working on a scene where the the enterprise came across the frame and then it rotated and started coming away.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: And for the half an hour I was in his room, all he was doing was working on getting the engines to shift their perspective so that as he put it, you heard the tailpipe.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he just was working on that little shift, thinking that level of detail, that kind of a thing that needed to sell it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously the the engines are totally manufactured from nothing, but we all are used to cars, and when you hear a car turn, it changes the way it sounds.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So he knew just to make that shift.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Working with that team and that group of people for the cup of coffee that I was on that movie was such a such a joy, such a joy.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I just learned so much.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: It absolutely shifted the way I think about everything I've done since then.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to acknowledge that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: But to the challenge.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: So Mark Steckinger, the supervisor, says, Hey, are you available?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've got this project.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: I can't tell you what it is.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then I find out from other people.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: They keep looking at me who do know, and they're going, David, you you want to work on this movie.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Just say yes.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Just say yes.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I finally sign the NDA.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Mark brings me into his office on a Friday afternoon and he hits play on the spacebar.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm looking up at the screen.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, is this and I'm and you oh, okay, come on.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: So he showed me the sequence, which was I did a variety of a bunch of things, but the big thing was a ship that is in orbit that drops a platform into the atmosphere that has a massive, effectively like a huge laser cannon that just bores a hole into a planet.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I got to see it on a Friday afternoon.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And now one of the things I do when I'm sound designing, if I'm really stuck and I don't know where I want to go with the sound, I will start to vocalize it because I find that my subconscious has an idea of where I want to be, even if I'm not really registering it yet.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm driving down the freeway, making crazy noises.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: I hope no one was looking.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um, long story short, I end up that weekend in my walk-in closet with a metal salad bowl in one hand and an electric toothbrush in the other.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just going and I'm making circles and I'm doing all kinds of different things with that noise.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: I bring that into the studio with me on Monday, and it didn't take me more than two or three hours.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I had processed it and done things to it and pitched it way down and distorted it.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I made it do all this stuff.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: That is the principal element that wound up.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's in the movie.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's the principal thing is me and my walk-in with a with an electrotoothbrush and a uh metal salible.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that movie was like some of the most creative I ever got to be.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: The recording and like coming up with my own material and then doing stuff with it.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So much fun, so much fun.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, such a good that's great.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, one of your lasers projects is criminal minds evolution.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: The series keep audiences on the edge of their seat.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do you use sound to build suspense without revealing what's about to happen?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I think with criminal minds, as with everything, the first thing that my job is is to not only get into the head of the project, but get into the head of the scene and kind of understand what I can do with sound to help tell the story at any given moment.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so with criminal minds, you know, a lot of times the tension is well, a lot of the scenes in criminal minds are the characters giving exposition and explaining what's going on.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: So my job is to stay out of the way.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh let them tell the story.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, though, I mean, criminal minds goes almost into horror, really, especially now that it's streaming.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's dark.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, while we're streaming, we have a little more latitude as far as what level of gore and bloodiness we want to put into it if we want, um, how scary we want the sound design to be.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so, and I find that the moments tend to kind of like answer themselves.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, if they're if they're coming into the crime scene and their guns are wrong or whatever, you know, maybe I can lay in a little bit of a rumble and a little bit of a tone to give a little bit of foreshadowing.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it's all just sort of about what does this moment need?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: What does this scene need?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes it's a jump scare.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I don't want to give you anything ahead of time, right?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the whole idea is to you know make you jump out of your seat for a second.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's I hope that kind of answers your question.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of a roundabout that's the headspace.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it did.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, so just in terms of process, do you do you watch the visual with no sound and use you come up with a sound design?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is it how you do it, or or depends on a project?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, um not just it's equal parts getting into the project of or the headspace of the project, but also getting into the headspace of my client and kind of getting to understand what they are hearing because they've already been working on it for months by the time I'm so they've already got a pretty good idea of where they want to go.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have some clients who are very receptive to hearing ideas and what I may invite it.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: They want me to bring ideas and possibilities to them.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: I have other clients who are laser locked, they know exactly what they want.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I need to kind of crawl into their head just as much as the project.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually usually will listen to it with whatever temp sound effects the picture editor has laid in.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Just sort of get an idea of the direction they are heading with it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then I will go, all right.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I like that direction, I agree with it.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Let me see if I can make it better.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, maybe I don't like the direction, and I may make a suggestion.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of depends on the hat and the client, too.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm a supervisor, I can say more than if I'm an editor.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, that kind of thing.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so and some projects, you know, you just know it's you know, oh, this is gonna be people in a room talking, and that's all it is.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's very simple.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Stay out of the way.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you've also worked on English Teacher, which has a completely different tone from shows like Criminal Minds.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: How does your creative process change when you're designing sound for comedy instead of suspense or action?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think the process starts the same.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just aiming in a whole different direction.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's still getting into the head of it and understanding.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, criminal or excuse me, English Teacher again was a show that I want to stay out of the way a lot and let the script and the actors tell the story.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we did have one episode that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: That was uh an AI trash can that would sort everybody's food and whatever, and then would even gain as it went gained a personality and started ridiculing.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: What do you mean you didn't eat your lunch?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and things like that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of fun because I kind of got to go a little into an R2D2 place and give it quirky beats and kind of like give it a little stank and give it a little attitude towards people as we went along.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but comedy is actually I find way harder than horror or whatnot because comedy is the right sound and its timing.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes the timing that I find funny doesn't work with what's on the picture.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be too late or too early, it's gonna be out of sync with what I'm seeing.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I have to find something that fits the timing and is just the right sound.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of times, honestly, I get too close, I get too into it, and I have to like go, all right, I gotta go do something else for a little while.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Cause I'm not, I can't tell if this is funny anymore.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, or sleep on it and then come back the next day.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Something too close to it, you need to walk away a little bit and then come back.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um the English teacher was fun.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you've said you spent years helping shape the unique world of what we do in the shadows.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the show mixes horror comedy and supernatural fantasy so effortlessly.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we create sounds that are creepy enough for vampires while still making audiences laugh?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: That show was such a gift, too.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, that show was so funny.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I miss it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, miss that show.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, honestly, in what we do in the shadows, I'm the straight guy.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the gag on that show is these supernatural beings with all of this crazy supernatural stuff, and for them it's all and it's just it's nothing.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we had one scene I remember was an episode where we had a necromancer whose job was to bring somebody back from the dead, and so he's got his hands up and he's um doing the incantations, and there's lightning and thunder and wind, and everything's going bananas, and then he gets a text message.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: So he puts one hand, he's texting with the one hand while the other hand is still trying to raise the guy from the dead, and it's just all so that only works if everything I did for the ritual is what I would have done for a horror movie anyway.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that you know, it's I'm the straight guy, so that we can have the comedy of the juxtaposition of how he's got mayhem going on, and yeah, you know, oh, yeah, my wife wants to know what I want for dinner or whatever the text message was.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that was the thing with what we do in the shadows.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, like most of the way, I was going after that with the big sequences, anyway.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I was going after them, like, let's make them as like we would in a horror movie, and then that way they were, you know, Colin Robinson or whoever was doing whatever they were doing, it was it was funny.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, another recent fan favorite is the Umbrella Academy, uh, where every episode blends superhero action, emotional family moments, and science fiction.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: What was one sequence from that series that really pushed your creativity as a sound designer?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, first of all, I want to acknowledge I did season four.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: I did not do the first three seasons.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so one of the first challenges I had was I fortunately had watched the show.
• 25:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of knew the palette that they were working with.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, John Snyder, who had cut it before, was great and he helped me out.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he he just unfortunately was not available when that episode or that show came along.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: So he gave me stuff, and then the little gift I had was when we got to season four, all of those superpowers needed to be related to what we heard in the first three seasons, but not the same because they kind of rebooted a little bit.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I was able to kind of make them not 100% what we had before, mess with it a bit.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, but still I want to stay in that family.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of the first piece, but the specific challenge, season four, episode two, the whole thing.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: That episode, we had superpowers, we had vehicles, we had, I think, a 20-minute gunfight towards the end.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: We had slow-mo sound design.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: I will put that episode up against anything I've ever done.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe it's some of the best work I've ever done.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I spent way too much time on it because I was having so much fun.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: I just got to create and have a great time.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like I I would sit back and just hit play, and it's that moment.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's the reason we all do this, right?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's that moment where you go, yeah.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that buzz of that's so badass.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: I hope I can say that.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, it was so cool.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: That episode, episode two, season four.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Anything from it.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna take a break and we're gonna play uh game true or false, and it's time to test some facts about your life and career.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready, David?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I am ready.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, true or false, you still notice sound mistakes when you're watching movies for fun.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: 100% true.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can't stop it.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, true or false, silence can sometimes be more powerful than loud sound effects.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: 100% true.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh true or false, every project teaches you something new.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: True or false, some of your best ideas have happened by accident.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: 100% true.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: True, true or false, you've recorded everyday household objects that became movie sound effects.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, true.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: True or false, you've uh you've uh you've ever scared yourself while creating horror sounds.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: False, I know they're coming.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: True or so true or false, you sometimes watch a finished project and forget you worked on it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think false.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: True or false, technology has made sound editing easier, but not necessarily simpler.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: True or false, audiences would appreciate movies even more if they knew how much work goes into sound.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Can I put a half true on that?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that I think that's true, but I also think that part of why people go to movies is the illusion.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And some people don't want to know.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: I would love it if people understood the level of work that went into things, but on the other hand, uh the escapism is part of the appeal.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I wouldn't, you know, sometimes it it's best to leave the curtain pulled on the magic, right?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, true or false, if you had the chance, you'd happily spend more time inside the Star Trek universe.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, true.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Star Trek, Star Wars, bring it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be fun.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um, we're gonna move on to our final segment: Emmy Success, Creativity, and Future.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: You've won one primetime Emmy for Atlanta and won a children and family Emmy Award for your Maya and the three.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: As someone who usually works behind the scenes, what did that recognition mean to you personally and professionally?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: I still don't really have words.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, growing up with my mom and that that um romanticism of the entertainment industry that she gave me, um, we would watch the Emmys on TV, and it didn't, you know, certainly never thought it would ever be like even a potential.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: When I started working in the industry, I found out that sound editors could win one, and I still didn't think it was a potential.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, that's really cool.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, maybe someday.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't think twice.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: They both sit on a cabinet in my living room, and I don't know how many years it's been.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: To this day, I still every once in a while look over and I'm just like, wait, that happened?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it is such an honor.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: It is so amazing.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even the nominations, I've gotten to go to the party, and you just get to be there and be a part of it.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know how to describe it, but it's so amazing.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's yeah, I know this is audio, and you can't see that I'm putting my hand on my heart.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I I I don't have know how to describe it.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: It blows me over.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm incredibly proud of it.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um words.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Looking across your career from CSR in New York and Star Trek to Criminal Minds, English Teacher, What We Do in the Shadows, and the Umbrella Academy, is there one sound effect or scene you're especially proud of?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because audiences probably have no idea how much work went into creating that.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know if I can say one.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm kind of proud of the salad bowl and the toothbrush.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: That was pretty cool.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as far as the work, I I would love to touch on Maya and the three for a second.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because that was my first time working on that kind of animation.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like the really high-end a la Pixar Illumination DreamWorks kind of level of animation.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was fortunate enough to work with a really amazing crew, again, with some really talented people.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, who largely a couple of the guys were video game guys, mostly.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: They had done a little bit of scripted stuff.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Supervisor was a guy named Scott Gershen.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Scott's got a ridiculous resume again, he's worked on movies and features, video games.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm brought in to kind of be the like scripted guy to kind of like, you know, cover a lot of different pieces.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Live action, you've got production audio to lean on.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the subtleties, movement, cloth, chair creaking, floor creaking, breaths, it all of that is just there in production.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if anything, we're actually maybe trying to clean some of it out.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: But it's we've got that audio to kind of lean on.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: And animation, obviously, you don't have any of that.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: You have to create everything.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: From a dialogue standpoint, it's easier.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Dialogue, the actor's coming into a studio, they're gonna voice the character.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And in a lot of cases, the animation is actually done to their performance in the ADR stage.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: But effects, it's a hundred times harder because now you've got to not only all of the basic sounds, but every leather creak, every little bit of debris, every grit, piece of grit under a footstep, all of that subtle detail that believe it or not, if it's not there, you your ear will grab it, and there will be something artificial about what you're listening to, and you won't quite buy in.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Working with that crew, absorbing, particularly with Scott, who had done that kind of stuff before, to understand the level of detail, the level of work.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's only eight episodes of that show.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: I I think we spent six months doing eight episodes, uh, maybe uh, and that was four of us.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, oh, and Tommy Tomito was on it too.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was five of us.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was a level of work that I hadn't ever processed about how much detail you have to put in there so that it 100% sounds real.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um I have total respect now.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Every time you see, like there's the minions movies out right now, and Toy Story 5 is out right now.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I those, I'm sure, years of work to make that happen.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I've respect, man, for every everybody who works in the animated world all the time.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to to do that for that long and to have that attention to detail, mind blowing.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: So great experience.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so technology is changing rapidly with AI and new digital tools becoming part of filmmaking.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: How do you see the future of sound design evolving?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what excites you the most about where the industry is heading?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Can I tell you, I'm not sure that I am excited?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because of AI, is it?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think the industry right now is in a really massive point of transition.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the central question, I think, in the middle of all of that is the centuries-old question of profitability versus creativity.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think AI is dead in the middle of that conversation because I think there are some who look at AI as an opportunity to eliminate people and have the machine just do it.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Cut costs.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact is that first of all, we're starting to already see the studies that show that people leaning on AI is making them dumber.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's already starting to happen.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: But from a sound standpoint, every amazing thing, every amazing sound, every iconic, creative, unique sound came from a person who recognized the sound and what it could be used for.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or even more, real-world accidents.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we have a lightsaber sound because a microphone got waved in front of a speaker accidentally and it made a really cool feedback noise, but it took a person to go, that sound.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I can use that for those swords.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: You need the real world accident.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: You need a person with taste.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think right now you could tell AI, hey, put in all the sound effects for this car chase.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: And AI could probably come up with something.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Would it sound good?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not, because it doesn't have taste.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't know yet what we will go, oh, that sounded really cool, you know, or the moment to make this kid do something weird or whatever, where we have that ability to make that choice.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think if we can figure out how to use AI as a tool that it still has a person behind it, and to make those choices to find the unique, cool thing.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's the other thing, too, is when you start really playing with processors and plugins, you get to a place at some point where it sounds processed and plugged in and it's it doesn't, it starts getting weird.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: So the answer to your question, am I excited?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, ask me in five years.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think we have to figure out how to be able to harness the creativity and do it.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, let's be it's a capitalist economy.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: We have to figure out how to do it in a way that people make money.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: We all got to put food on our tables, right?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's true.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um let's see.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see where this all goes in the next five years.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so do you do you have any tips or recommendations for upcoming sound designers?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Pay attention to what you hear, no matter how big or small.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes the most mundane sound can be twisted into something.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: The bullet whiz buys and saving private Ryan half the time are fishing line and unspooling.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what Gary Rydström just heard new to use.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know the guy, I've never met him, unfortunately.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've just seen the interviews with him and he's explained it.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not saying anything that isn't out there.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um listen to what you hear, be creative about it, be willing to um mesh sounds together that maybe would be a little weird.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um in real-world experimentation.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Put a metal salad bowl against a toothbrush and see what happens.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I I think that that sound design, and trust your gut.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Trust your gut on things.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: If something just feels like this is the right sound for the moment, go with it.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great tip.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Great tip.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what's next for you?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, can you talk about any projects you're working on or um that's a really good question.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: I have started season 20 of Criminal Minds.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Can't believe there's 20 seasons of this show, but here we are.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I also am just finished uh a little Christmas movie that um actually had some kind of fun stuff.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: We got to do some kind of steampunk uh gears and like you know, some kind of cool moments in it.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, like a lot of people, the industry's tough right now.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you've gotta uh but I'm excited to be, I mean, back on criminal minds just knocks me over.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the criminal that Christmas movie was a lot of fun.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: So even in a tough time, I've managed to land on some pretty fun stuff.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: So no complaints.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, David, we're nearing the end of the show.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's all, folks.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for watching, David Barbie, everyone.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, David.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.