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Romantasy, Spicy Books & There’s a Toy for That · Talk $hit & Eat Chips

• Carolyn: Hey everybody! Welcome to another episode of Talk Shit and Eat Chips. I am Carolyn. Rebecca: And I am Rebecca. Welcome. Carolyn: Welcome. And so if you saw our first episode, you might have learned a little bit about us and you're gonna learn probably more than you ever would want to know as we go along. But first of all, we're gonna start with what we always do, which is to crack out our chip of the day. So Rebecca, what do you got? Rebecca: today I got ruffles, cheddar and sour cream because in America the only thing we like more than dairy is more dairy. So we're gonna give these a shot. The dude abides. They're yummy. Carolyn: Is it an American cheese situation or is it like a real cheese situation? Rebecca: I don't know if cheese is the word I would use. Carolyn: Is it like the powder that they put on the macaroni? Rebecca: Yeah, but not the same. But in that family group. Definitely. Carolyn: Okay. Okay. Okay. Rebecca: But they're really crunchy and yummy. Definitely have some umami going on. I'm tasting Carolyn: Okay. Rebecca: more the sourness of the sour cream, which is really great. And less of the cheddar. But they are bright orange cheddar colored. So Carolyn: So I actually got I got a chip this week too because I was the only one with chips last week but now we both do but I thought because last week I did Nashville barbecue so now I've got Korean barbecue. Rebecca: yeah, that's my jam. Are they spicy? Carolyn: And so I don't know, we'll find out. So I like a ruffled chip, right? Because they're like they're crunchy and so this is a Canadian brand. They did Rebecca: Might mmm Carolyn: like flavors of the world. It smells like ketchup. Rebecca: Your face. Carolyn: Sweet. It's sweeter than I thought it was gonna be. It is, Rebecca: Well, Korean barbecue, yeah, full on. Carolyn: yeah. But I like it. It does have that Rebecca: Mm. Carolyn: little bit of Korean tang to it, And then Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Carolyn: a nice heat after. a nice gentle heat. The Nashville ones had Rebecca: I that's good. You want the spicy. Otherwise it's not Korean. Carolyn: me choking. These are like this is nice. The heat is building. I it's very crispy. I approve. This this company is like president's choice, right? Not Rebecca: Uh-huh. Carolyn: your president, the president of this company. Let's just get that straight, okay? Rebecca: you guys don't have presidents. What the hell? Carolyn: Well, I don't know. That's a whole other ball game, right? Because you're guys very fond of calling us by things we're not. But anyway. Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: But yeah, they just continue stuff and I'm like, no, I think they should hang on to this one. It's I I approve. This is really good. So when we're off air, I'm gonna be like Rebecca: I I have to be honest, I like, Carolyn: Just keep eating the Pardon us while we have a little crunchathon here. There are I know. I know. Rebecca: They're good. Alright, you're right. Let's set aside foolish things. And Carolyn: So we're gonna save the rest of our chips because we both have things to watch slash read later. So what are we talking about, Rebecca: Mm. That's right. Full on. Carolyn: Rebecca? Rebecca: So I'm apparently the only red buttted woman in all of North America that has not watched Heated Rivalry yet. Carolyn: Shame for shame for shame. Rebecca: So I have promised Carolyn that I will watch Heated Rivalry before our next podcast and give you my off the cuff hot and steamy take on Carolyn: Honestly. Honestly. Rebecca: On on hockey dudes banging. Carolyn: I don't know if that's is it better or worse that you're doing this so late? 'Cause people were feral over Christmas and it was my lesbian Rebecca: I know. Over the top. Carolyn: niece and her partner who were like, You have to watch these hot hockey dudes brinking and I'm like, Aren't you gay? Like, what the hell's going on? Rebecca: No, I got it from I got it from everybody from all sides. I guess I I I can be a little bit stubborn. So a part of me was like, you know, I don't need it. Carolyn: Everyone's doing it. I shall not. Rebecca: Exactly. So I'm going to I'm going to I'll take the knee and I will go. And Carolyn: Okay. Rebecca: I'm gonna watch it before our next episode. But that brings Carolyn: You better. Rebecca: us in some respects right into our topic of the day, which is romanticy. Carolyn: Romantasy. Rebecca: Ha ha ha. Carolyn: And so this is where I am really falling behind. Okay. You haven't seen Heated Rivalry, but I haven't read any romantic. And I got on this topic because I was at the gym and I looked up and they were playing the Twilight movie. And I was like, is this romantic? is this where it all began? And he was all sparkly and it was ridiculous. And I've seen part of the first one. my god. Rebecca: Those movies suck. They suck so hard. Carolyn: even I couldn't even hear it and it was sucking, right? It was just in my peripheral. So yeah, I was Rebecca: Yeah. I felt like they they threw these kids up and they were like we're doing one take That's all you get Let's just Carolyn: You better make it good. Rebecca: pound this movie out, we get one take on every scene. That's how I felt like. I I only watched I don't even think I watched a full one. I I've watched pieces of them or anything, but I did read the books back in the day when they came out. I read them all. And they're pretty decent. So but Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: I'd like to make a point. For me, that's not romanticy. That's YA. That's young adult. Carolyn: Okay, well I Rebecca: Hot take. Yeah. Carolyn: think there's a lot more sex in YA than there was back in my day. Rebecca: I think what happened is YA became so frickin' popular that they were like YA is being read not even really by young adults anymore, as being read by women our age, you know, or in their thirties, and they were like, What if we put sex in it? And and and turn it into basically if we we brought the Harlequin novel, you know, or as my daughter says, porn for women. And we put it with the the the vampires and the werewolves and everything like this, and we put sex in it. And there were people already making these books, but they just weren't getting the shelf space, I guess, that they deserved. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: I think Carolyn: In a bookstore back in the early 90s when I was in university, and so there was very much the romance section, you got your Harlequins, you got your silhouettes, and that whole formulaic thing, and then you had your kind of longer romance, and then you had your smuttier books, like your Daniel Steele and stuff like that. But the young A Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: was like goosebumps and I don't know, Sweet Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: Valley High. Rebecca: Well, Sweet Valley High was so popular they realized that romance could bring something, and so they became more and more, I think that publishers were like, What's selling? Let we need more romance for young girls. And and so they started and I have to admit, I mean a lot of these books well, I mean, have you gone into a Barnes and Nobles lately? I mean it must be working because literally You go into the the novels section, the fiction section, fully half the floor was a romanticy section. I I couldn't believe it. So many goddamn books. Carolyn: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's even easier now to crank them out faster. I remember back in the day, John Gersham got really big, remember? And then and then the Da Vinci Code got big. And so when something like that would happen, then publishers would just rush to bring out like as many along that genre as they possibly could. Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: And then suddenly you had like five hundred lawyer books that were out. Rebecca: god, yeah, there was a thousand books about lawyers. And I was like, Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: I didn't even read the firm. I was like, I'm done with this. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: I'm like, this is boring. How many procedurals do we need? Yeah, well, I mean, basically, and I've seen this, they took the procedural and they put sex in it, and now they're selling it to women. So Carolyn: we're the ones buying the books, right? Rebecca: Women I think I I honestly think that women are the ones buying the books. I don't have any facts and figures on this. I'm talking completely out of my ass. But I do believe that they're Carolyn: Talking shit. Rebecca: the they're the only ones I ever see reading books in the subway. They're the only and honestly, so I think and if it's not if they're not reading a book they're reading on their on their on their phones, you know, or listening to them now, you know. Carolyn: It's true. There's a whole there's an Instagram page called Hot Dudes Reading where people submit pictures of good looking guys that they've seen on public transit who are or wherever, who are actually reading books. So I guess it's like so rare that you're like, Ooh, hi, he reads. Rebecca: The intellectual in the wild. It's true. honestly. Yeah, and I take the subway. I mean I live in New York City, right? I I take the subway, I see people, I rarely see dudes reading. but then I Carolyn: Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Same here. Rebecca: and honestly, I rarely see people reading. So we were gonna talk about this, and yesterday I was coming back from Tai Chi, and the woman sitting next to me. was reading one of the Rebecca Yoros Fourth Wing novels, which is Carolyn: And this is one of your romanticies that you're saying I should read? Rebecca: No, I'm not saying you should read it. I read the first one and people are gonna come at me about this because it's very popular. I didn't find it very well written, and I decided not to continue with the series. But sh I think the concept is excellent. Maybe she becomes a better writer as she goes along. I don't know. I didn't have time for it, but it's extremely popular. So it's dragons. And so our young let's see if I can remember how it goes. Our young protagonist, again, for me this is very much YA. She's super young and she comes in to this like s it's always this is kind of the the trope, right? So young person comes into a bad situation, there's a war, there's a crises, there's something going on. She is a nobody, a real loser. But somehow she's got that special spark that and in this case she can maybe ride a dragon. So there's this huge and the beginning of the book is quite good. you can tell she spent a lot of time on it. So she she goes in and and and is in this real cutthroat competition to see who's gonna ride the dragons and there's all kinds of and of course there's a super fucking hot guy who's like, you'll never ride a dragon. But at the same time, he's like, maybe she will. And then guess what? She rides a dragon. And it's the best one. It's the best of the Carolyn: Why are they alert? Rebecca: dragons. Spoiler alert. She gets the best dragon. Carolyn: And then they have sex. Rebecca: And I don't even know. I can't even remember. I don't even think that they do, but they're definitely like, you know, it's hot. is hot. a lot of enemies to lovers. Totally happening. Carolyn: Which is the biggest trope ever, right? Rebecca: The biggest trope ever, enemies to lovers. And and then at the end there's a real bad action sequence where I was like, What is even going on? And that's when I was like, I'm done with this. This has gotten too silly for me. And also, I think really the biggest problem was it's YA. It's not it's not f I mean like there's a moment where I was like, God, all this drama. They could have just had a conversation. You know what I mean? Carolyn: book would have been two chapters. Rebecca: Well then you could concentrate on the damn dragons like that's cool and maybe put in a couple of sex scenes you know if they had a conversation they could be boning on a dragon like I'm like come on so Carolyn: Ooh. Okay, so this is where I'm confused, because you've read this stuff and I haven't. I thought that romanticy was like people having sex with different creatures. Rebecca: there's some of that. There's definitely a lot of that too. vampire, werewolf. Those those are the main deals. But you can Carolyn: Yes. Or Rebecca: also do fairies. So let's see if we can do them all. Vampires, werewolves, fairies, demons, gargoyles. It's the big Carolyn: ow. Rebecca: one. I don't know why. Gargoyles, aliens. aliens are big. Carolyn: Yeah. yeah. Rebecca: And they are always somehow humanoid and real buff. Like with huge penises. Carolyn: And have like regular yeah. Rebecca: Yeah, huge penises with maybe like ridges or something on it, you know, like they're real creature cocks kind of situation. Carolyn: It's funny. As as you're talking about this, I'm going through my Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: inventory in my head because okay, if you're new if you're new to the podcast, I am a sex educator and I also own online sex toy stores and one of the hottest things over the last what five years has been this line called creature cocks and it started Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: with like I don't know I think something that looked like it's supposed to be werewolf and and now the things that they are coming up with is like completely mind blowing. They have an ovipositor which was like For those of you who don't know, it's basically like a dildo that's hollow and you put these like silicone eggs in it that then you can deposit in you, but not in your butt, because I am a sex educator, so I'm just getting in there with you'll never get them out again. Without a base, without a trace. Rebecca: I don't wanna judge. I never wanna judge. I don't wanna yuck anybody else's yum when it comes to sex. But a part of me is just like, whoa. I mean, do you w so extreme. Carolyn: Some of them are s so extreme, and Rebecca: I'm like, do you use them often? Or is it just like a one-time fantasy deal? Like Carolyn: Did you watch sex education the show? Rebecca: I watched a couple episodes of it, yeah. Carolyn: One of the one of the girls, like she and her girlfriend, right, her thing was alien roleplay, but then she wanted to do Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Carolyn: it like all the time. And I don't Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: think they involved a creature cock. But anyway, no judgment if they did. but yeah, I mean, like, you just take Rebecca: Just seems like a lot. Carolyn: it out I mean, you know, like I have a house full of big nerds, like D and D level nerds, right? And I mean, Rebecca: Hmm full eye. Carolyn: all that fantasy stuff has been around for obviously for ages. So it's not surprising. Rebecca: full od. Carolyn: I guess it's just as women have been getting more interested in it that then the toys are coming out. Rebecca: Well I mean sci fi that's like that has shit tons of sex in it and and is and from like back I mean like it's been around for a long time. There's a there's a couple of authors, they were s it was all pulp fiction, right? And they were specialized Carolyn: Yeah, it's true. Rebecca: and but a lot of it was super, super misogynistic and super like this guy arrives on a planet and all the women tear their clothes off and service him. Basically, it's like that stuff, you know. There's a male version, yeah. Carolyn: But I that was the male version of reading porn, right? Cause I remember asking my partner Paul about what was like the the guy equivalent of it. And he his dad used to have these pulp westerns, like Louis Lemour Rebecca: yeah. Carolyn: or something like that. And they used to like they were a cereal. I don't think they came out as much as Harlequins, but like they were kind of a cereal and they had sex in them. Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: So if instead of stealing your dad's Playboy magazines, if people were more reading inclined, that was kind of what you went for. Rebecca: Full on. I know. Well also you could have this but this this book, which is full of super porny material, on public transit or at the church and no one would know. They're all like, look at that nice young man reading a western Carolyn: Except for the dad is like, I read that one. That one's good. Rebecca: It's really good. You're like, I see you. Well, I mean there's I think there's definitely some of that. It's not like romance being porn for women is anything new, but there's been some I think it's the newer and I would say newer 'cause it's still been I've been reading I guess now we call it romantic, but I've been reading, you know, romance novels that are have a heavy sci-fi event for at least twenty years. So this is not at all well when it's I mean like geez. I think some one of my favorites that I've been reading for quite a while. I I insist on good writing. And there is a lot of crap out there right now because they are just publishing as fast as they can. It's kind of ridiculous. But I really like Cresley Cole. she does a series called Immortals After Dark. And there's now the series is like this universe she's created. There's there must be twenty books in it already. It's like there's a lot of them. And it's really good. She's created this like realm that kind of is, well, it's our world, but there's a whole group of people living in it that humans don't really pay attention to. So you've got you have the vampires, you have the the the werewolves for sure, but you've got Valkyries, you've got Nymphs, you have demons of all sorts, all kinds of weird ass things. She's really great. She's a Carolyn: Write this down. Rebecca: good writer, she's fun, and there's like I like it has to still have a solid frickin' plot line. Yeah. Carolyn: What's her name? Rebecca: Cresley Cole. Carolyn: Check that out. Yeah, I was just thinking, when I was working in the bookstore, I think the first thing I probably read along those lines was the interview with the vampire books. And she wrote those in the late seventies. First one. Rebecca: Anne Rice. Yeah, full on. I read interview I read a lot of those too. You know, I revisited them. She got way too like incestuous for me. I was like too much incest. And also Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Well the the lore and people can correct me if this is like if I'm talking out of my ass, but the lore was that she was basically got, really, really big and that she was not allowing much in the way of editing and she was just basically getting her own way. she was super eccentric. I worked with a woman who Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: held an event, Where she had her come in and sign, which was a huge coup, right? Especially being in Toronto. And they hired a horse-drawn carriage because she would always wear these Victorian clothes and stuff. And my friend had to drive to Buffalo to get these specific pens that were only available in the States and like a huge deal. But like her fan Rebecca: my god. Carolyn: base was rabid. So Rebecca: Yeah, this people are super fucking into her. Carolyn: yeah. Rebecca: And I have to be honest, I read so we have we're we're gonna do a segment called Books You Read Maybe Too Young. And a couple of her books I read when I was super young, maybe like twelve, and it was a little too early. Yeah. My mom had laying around the house. Carolyn: Was it the Sleeping Beauty ones? Rebecca: And I read a couple and I was like, What is this? That's a discussion. Yeah, it's really. But I read Interview with a Vampire. I think I was ten or eleven. And honestly, somebody gave it to me. I was very voracious and precocious reader. And and it Carolyn: They weren't they weren't explicit. Rebecca: they were not explicit. I actually I quite liked it. I I do think that actually Interview with a Vampire and maybe Vampire Lestat are her only two books that I find fairly coherent. Yeah. Carolyn: Yeah, agree. And Rebecca: and I know I know she has huge fans and I hope they don't show up at my house and try and kill me. But Carolyn: Well, have you seen their the T V show they made? Rebecca: Yeah. I didn't watch the new one. I hear it's really good. Carolyn: It is much sexier than the books. Yeah. Rebecca: that's good because that was one thing that was really missing. Vampires that don't have sex. I'm like, what? Carolyn: It's just that innuendo. Well, 'cause she was she was writing all this tension between Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Carolyn: male characters, but she would never really say that they were blinking, right? And then she didn't allow Rebecca: I know it was so disappointing. Carolyn: yeah, and she didn't allow anything to be made for the longest time. And that was why the original movie was so lame. Well, also like Tom Curse, I'm sorry, whatever, but Rebecca: So lame. Tom Cruise. come on. Yeah. Carolyn: She's dead now. And it's her son, I think, that's head of the empire. And so this time they were like, no, they're totally boinking go for it. They t Yeah. Rebecca: Good because they are. I mean, like how could they not be? You know, Jesus Christ. I was like even even eleven year old Rebecca reading the Vampire Less Thought, I was like or not Vampire Less interview with a vampire, I was like there seems to be something missing. I was like, what the hell is going on? So Carolyn: It's like it's like you're you're etching me. Rebecca: yeah you're There's no payoff! There's no payoff! Yeah, so for sure, I think that that's that's a big one. It's she's a very interesting thing, but she in some respects she totally launched that vampire genre. She really, Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: really did. I mean, before that it was just Dracula. And she so Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: I you know I salute you, thank you for your service, ma'am. She really did launch that genre. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: And then and then suddenly there was twilight. Carolyn: And everyone was sparkly. Rebecca: And everyone was sparkly. I kinda like it. Listen, the movies are really bad. And the books are very angsty teen kind of drama, but they are quite good. they're Carolyn: Mm. Okay. Rebecca: well written and and you know, some very interesting things happen in them. I I found them to be specifically good. That said, I read them when they came out. If I read them again I'd probably find them really boring. I don't know. Carolyn: That's the thing, it's like, do I really have the patience these days for teenx? You know? It's like, yeah, I I really don't. They you know Rebecca: Uh-uh. No, I don't. I'm like and I think that that's one of the reasons why I never really got into I read the first of another big one that is really popular is Sarah Mass and her The Court of Thorn and Roses. Carolyn: I've heard of that. Rebecca: Yeah. I read the first one and I was like, I'm exhausted. I can't read these anymore. Carolyn: Really? Rebecca: Yeah. It was too much. maybe I'll revisit it. It was what it was pretty good. It just seemed, I don't know, too much. Overly complicated and the same. A lot of like, ooh, this, emotions, emotions. And I was just like, you know what, you're you're exhausting me. I live with two teenagers. I don't need this. And that was ha ha ha ha ha ha ha And so now my teenagers have moved out, maybe I can read it again. Carolyn: It's all like a distant memory. You're like, okay, I can go there. Rebecca: Maybe I can go for it. But I think that I mean, honestly, if I'm gonna give you some recommendations, there's better out there, much Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: more mature, really good. one of my favorite authors right now is Aluna Andrews, and it's actually a husband and wife team. Carolyn: Really? Rebecca: Yeah, and they are very, very good writers, and all of their books, bar none, are excellent. Excellent. And they jump around through all kinds of genres. they do futuristic sci-fi, they do alternate universe, they you know, all kinds of stuff that you could possibly imagine. And their latest is an Isekai novel. I don't know if you know what that Carolyn: Interesting. Rebecca: means. So it's like where the the main character wakes up in a in a book that she is obsessed with. And she wakes up in that world. She doesn't know how she got there and she has she's like naked in this horrible place. Carolyn: She is. Rebecca: It's like she wakes up in Game of Thrones. Okay? And she knows Game of Thrones really well because she's read the shit out of it, right? But over and over and over again. But she's still in fucking Game of Thrones naked and doesn't know, you know. Carolyn: There's an actual term for that. it's a genre. Rebecca: It's Isekai, yeah. I might be saying it wrong. Yes, it is. It's a huge anime trope. It is. It's a huge anime trope. Carolyn: It just had something to do with anime. okay, okay. Okay. Rebecca: So, and so that book is called This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me. And I highly recommend. It was very good. I like that one a lot. And all of her all of their, I should say, books are really good. I really like another one who's much more porny. The sexiest of sex scenes. Carolyn: Okay. Rebecca: Emma Hawley is excellent. I really like her a lot. and then in a more like literary bent, you've got of course Leigh Bardugo. She did the Shadow and Bone series. And now she's Carolyn: Okay. right, I've heard of that. Rebecca: doing some more adult stuff, like the Ninth House. Very worthy. And of course you've and she she brings to mind a lot Holly Black, who's also really good and does a lot of stuff on fairies. Carolyn: Fairies. Rebecca: Yeah. And Holly Black bizarrely is always listed as a YA author, and I don't see it. Her shit is so dark. Carolyn: they like some angst. Rebecca: Mm. Yeah, there's yeah. Especially those goth kids, they need their thing. Carolyn: Yeah. So it's it's interesting that you were saying this and that you have to watch Heated Rivalry because when the show I th w right like as it was finished taping, I think, and before it like became massive, the two guys voiced a romanticy and they were like male fairies. Yeah. It was fur it was Is there a word for that? Is there another word? Are they still male fairies or is there a term for that? I don't want to be politically Rebecca: I don't know yeah, I guess there's still Carolyn: incorrect to all our fairy fans out there, right? Rebecca: Completely. I think it is male fairies. Or maybe it's just fairies. They don't like to be gendered. I don't know. Carolyn: Yeah, so the I think if I remember it was for some like online app that does Rebecca: yeah, there was a couple of those going and I don't know if they any of them succeeded. Carolyn: Well guessing that this one probably did okay if those two were involved. But yeah, I remember Rebecca: Hmm. Yeah. Carolyn: seeing little videos of them doing like promo shoots for it where they were I mean they're totally jacked, right? And they're wearing like white tank Rebecca: So hot. Carolyn: tops with these little fairy wings stuck to the back. And they're being all like romantically longingly looking at each other and stuff. And and then the yeah, I guess they do the reading of it. So but Rebecca: Yes! Carolyn: it's I haven't heard anybody talking about that. So I wonder if it just really sucked or Rebecca: I don't know. There was there was a ton of apps, but a lot of them were AI powered. Carolyn: Mm, Rebecca: Or they Carolyn: yeah. Rebecca: were like and where you could like read and you could choose your own adventure kind of thing. But so Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: many of them were were AI powered and and really crappy. And the ones the ones that they were trying to promote at that time I was still on Instagram and they were trying to promote to me through Instagram. And a lot of it was like This real abusive trope of I'm the alpha's the the werewolf alpha's true mate, but he has thrown me aside for some slut in a tight skirt, and now I'm all alone and everybody abuses me and it's horrible, and when is he going to see that I'm like and I was like, I'm not interested. Carolyn: Well there's that whole Alpha Omega thing is massive, right? Everywhere. Rebecca: super massive and my god pornee that's like a big yeah then we're not even pretending anymore it's like a lot of these don't even have any storyline really it's just a whole bunch of fucking Carolyn: Well, it's I think the a big part of that lure is the dominant submission, but also that particular anatomy and what it does, right? Which is all like that's a lot I'm like Rebecca: Yeah. full on. Nodding. I wanna be knotted. Carolyn: And yes, there are dildos for that. Rebecca: There are dildos for that. There's a dildo for everything. Just there really, really is. Carolyn: There really, really is. There's tentacles, there's unicorn horns. There's even Dracula, Rebecca: Everything. Carolyn: which I'm like, wasn't he human? But anyway, we might have judged. Rebecca: How is a Dracula penis different? Carolyn: It looks very gothy and I think th the base I don't know. I'll have to look Rebecca: Huh. Carolyn: it up, people. Look it up. I think it's called wait, wait. It's called You're right, Count Cockula. Rebecca: Of course it is. my god. Yeah. Anyway, Carolyn: So yeah. Yeah. Good times. Rebecca: but there is there's a dildo for that. Is in case you're worrying and you're worrying Carolyn: There's a tildo for everything. I mean Rebecca: that there isn't. There is. Carolyn: I got you. Don't worry. Somebody's got you if I don't. Rebecca: Full on, full on. my gosh. Yeah, that Alpha Omega stuff is pretty crazy. and then of course there's all the reverse harem stuff. So reverse harem, and I don't know why it's a reverse harem, but the idea is that the woman is alone and she gets like three, two, eight guys. And they are her men. Yeah. And they all are completely at her service. I this I understand where the fantasy's coming from. and basically she's all the women woman they need. Eight guys. A part of me is like, hey, I and I think a lot of these these fantasies you can see where it's coming from because it's a lot of them it comes down to being taken care of. It's really interesting. Not just Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: sexually, but just like all of your matur material needs or being taken care of by this super rich vampire or this harem of eight guys, maybe Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: eight vampires, you don't know. but usually they throw in a werewolf or something else into the mix. It's a little mix of guys, a mix of of different genres of men. but a lot of it is about being taken care of. Yeah. Carolyn: Yeah. Because you I think the expectation is I think when women are reading, they insert themselves into that character, Rebecca: Mm. Full on. Carolyn: right? 'Cause when we say like you're reading porn, I mean, you know, sometimes you're not, but a lot of the times you are inserting yourself usually into the protagonist of the story, right? Like you're the Yeah. Rebecca: Full on. yeah, definitely. Carolyn: And so that's why I think these formulas become so familiar, right? people w love to read Alpha Omega or they love to read, I don't know, fairies or whatever, because that's the thing that particularly excites them and they like putting Rebecca: Mm. Carolyn: themselves in that role. So then they can do it in slightly different ways over and over again. I mean, it's the same reason why fan fiction exists, right? It's like Rebecca: Yeah. F well and I think in some respects romanticy, some of the a lot of the romanticity that's happening today is coming directly from fanfiction. You know what I mean? Even like Fifty Shades of Grey, not romanticy, Carolyn: that, yeah. Rebecca: but still, she was writing it online first. It was basically fanfic in its own way. And and so there's yeah. Carolyn: It was, yeah. What was it based on? It it was Twilight Fanfiction. Rebecca: Twil I think Twilight was even started out as fanfiction. Yeah. Carolyn: Yeah, it was Twilight Fanfiction and then she wrote Fifty Shades of Grey based on it. Rebecca: Exactly. Yeah. And so basically, I think that yeah, it's a lot of it is is women. But I think it's interesting to to to to point out is that in f in this as my daughter definitely calls it porn for women and it is in some respects, this porn for women, a big part of it is not just all of the dicking down and getting sex. It is also very much being taken care of. And sometimes that taken care of means being kidnapped and tied up and told when to eat and, you know, given, a nice place. And some of that sometimes the storyline goes through them having to go through a lot of horrible things before suddenly they they Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: are recognized as being Carolyn: Yes. Rebecca: the most impressive and wonderful thing on the planet that really needs to be protected and loved. So Carolyn: Yeah, see. Yeah, I was just thinking that because that's a huge element of them, right? Is they Rebecca: Hmm. Huge element. Carolyn: have that special spark that nobody has seen yet, and then the other person or werewolf or whatever sees it and Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They are unique. Carolyn: they're special. It's like at the Harry Potter syndrome, right? Rebecca: full on. It is full Harry Potter syndrome, but without necessarily needing to be a hero at the end of it. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. You Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: know, sometimes just their being is enough to be wonderful. And so there's a lot of that too. And I see in that basically, you know, as women we are always wearing like nine hundred hats. We Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: we have to be so frickin' capable. in our everyday lives taking care of so much stuff that actually the a part of the fantasy is also being recognized for our powers and Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: two being having somebody take care of all that stuff for us. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: So I think that that's that's a big part of it. But in the romanticy aspect it's the other and also the fact that it is completely no one's gonna run into a werewolf. I don't think. Who knows? If there are werewolves out there, reach out, come on the Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: show. We'd love to talk to you. You can Carolyn: Talk to you. Just not around the full moon. Rebecca: we won't use your full name. We'll be fine. Yeah, let's do it on the new moon, but we'd love we'll give you chips. Please come over. But I think that the the idea is that it's not in some respects romanticy is fine also because it is not actually comparing any man you might know to Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: what's going on. And we didn't even talk about all of the there's so much lesbian and homosexual romanticy out there too. I don't and Yeah. Carolyn: That is true. Yeah, and that's so great to see, right? Because I think that a lot of I don't know how much kind of pulp fiction with happy endings there's been for queer people for a long time, right? Because the whole thing is like Rebecca: It's happening. Carolyn: it always ends in tragedy. Right? Good. Rebecca: Hm, it's having a moment. I think I really feel like it's having a moment. Carolyn: Good. Rebecca: That queer romance and I say queer too, like Emma Hawley who I suggested, she has no problems with sword fighting in her books as they call it. Carolyn: Nice. Nice. Rebecca: Yeah, the a whole two guys, one woman Trope and that's huge. and I told you in the reverse harem thing, sometimes it's just like everybody in a pile, you know? Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. And that is, I think again, one of the biggest fantasies for women is Rebecca: Mm. Carolyn: the whole having two guys in there with you, right? Rebecca: Two guys in there with you or just two guys by themselves. I think a lot of men don't realize that as much as they love to watch lesbian porn, and I use I'm using little air quotes there for people who are not watching, just listening, because it's it's often not very lesbian. It's more, you know, for the male gays. But still, as much as guys love lesbian porn, women love gay porn. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: Because what's not to like? If you're attracted to men and suddenly you've got two hot men going down, what's Carolyn: Yep. Rebecca: not to like there? and so like in a lot of these books there's a lot of guys touching guys and Carolyn: Mm. Rebecca: also a lot of you know why should I have to choose? And in fact that is a trope. Why choose is one of the tropes. It's called that. Yeah. Why not? this guy's hot. Carolyn: You can have a thruple. Why not? You and your vampire and your werewolf can have a thruple. Rebecca: This guy. Exactly. Vampire and Warwolf. So like, you know, Bella should have just been like, look, you guys. Carolyn: Right work something out. Rebecca: Work something out 'cause we're gonna do it. I feel like that was an opportunity missed in those books. Carolyn: Yeah. Well, how long ago were those written, right? Because there were so many again Rebecca: a while ago. Carolyn: with Interview with the Vampire, they were so afraid to Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: kinda go near the gay thing. and Rebecca: Well, full on. Yeah. Carolyn: so, Hmm. Rebecca: I think when did those come out? They came out in the late nineties, early thousands. Carolyn: Yeah. It was definitely after I was out of publishing. So it Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: was probably early two thousands, I wanna say. I don't remember. Rebecca: She wrote another book which is not as well known at all, but I think is really her better book is The Host. Which was Carolyn: Mm, I've heard of that. Rebecca: r it was really good. I enjoyed Carolyn: Okay. Rebecca: it. I I read it twice even. I Carolyn: Okay. Rebecca: thought it was a lot of fun. But still very YA I think she's a Mormon. Isn't she a Mormon? Yeah, Carolyn: Really? I don't know. Rebecca: that might be why she didn't really do any sexy stuff in her books. Or she's like Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints or something like this. she's a believer. Carolyn: part of the appeal of these books too is that they're just they're easy to read. 'Cause I came from the literary Canlit world and when you read a book and it's just exhausting sometimes you just want Rebecca: Yes, I do. Yeah. Carolyn: you know it's the same reason why the whole beach reads genre exists and there's nothing wrong with that. But when I Rebecca: No. Carolyn: worked in Canlet people would make fun of it all the time, right? It was like, my God, Harlequin, like that's not even writing. Well come on. We need that stuff. Rebecca: It's not writing and yet it sells how many million books a year? I'm Carolyn: Exactly. Rebecca: like, it is writing. It's Carolyn: Yeah, exactly. Rebecca: all writing. I think that there's a and and I'm I'm a hu I love to read and I read across many, many, many genres. Right now I'm reading three books. I'm reading Margaret Atwood's Hagweed. I'm reading Hamnet and And I'm also reading some romantic book which is so stupid that I cannot remember what the name of it is. But I love them. I mean honestly, I like to spread it around. Carolyn: Let me know if I should read Hamnet before I see the movie, 'cause that movie looks frickin' fantastic. And they're already talking Oscar for him, right? So Rebecca: Looks so good. I that's one of the Yeah. Yeah. I've started it. I'm about I think I'm like three chapters in. It's very well written. but I can tell already it's gonna be so sad. I'm like, no. Carolyn: Yeah. yeah, totally. Rebecca: That's why I read different things at different t all the t 'cause sometimes I'm not in the mood. So I can already tell. Yeah. Carolyn: I saw the trailer the trailer for the movie, I was getting teary. So I'm like, shit. Rebecca: Hm. Yeah. But it's it's quite beautiful and I have to say honestly, we've just really started it, but I'm already seeing Shakespeare in a totally different light. You know what I mean? It really comes comes at the man from a curve, you know what I mean? from his family, which is not something that people talk about v usually very much. Carolyn: Interesting. Rebecca: And and strangely enough, I'm also reading a book based on the Tempest. I don't know how that happened. It wasn't planned. So yeah. Carolyn: I gotta get a move on because honestly, like I find myself just not I mean do like a ebooks, but to sit down, Rebecca: Mm. Carolyn: I'm so fidgety these days and I'm always working and it's hard to like sit down with a paper book and I used to read so much more and I've just kinda Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: you know like you're stressed out. It's hard to just sit down and relax. Rebecca: But y I f I have to be honest, I prefer a real book, because I'm on my phone all day. I don't feel like I guess it is a deconnection kind of feeling. I need to feel de like completely in another place. And so I like Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: to I like to have the book. And also Carolyn: Yeah, you're reading on your phone, you're like, I'm gonna go check my email for a second. Rebecca: Exactly. Or suddenly text messages appearing. You know, WhatsApp is appearing. emails, everything, they all appear on and yes, I know that there's a thing you can push to make them not appear, but the truth of the matter is and also these days it's a flex. You go out in public and you read a book. That's kind of a flex these days. Carolyn: That's true. Look at me, I know how to read. Rebecca: That's right, I'm a goddamn literati, okay? Carolyn: think there is a resurgence on paper books though, I've known people Rebecca: Yeah. Full on. Carolyn: because I worked in publishing that like the smell of them, the feel of them, it's like a total Rebecca: Mm, mm. Carolyn: mm visceral experience, right? Rebecca: I I get most of my books from the public library, but I have to admit, when I really, really love a book and I've read some super good books recently, I buy them afterwards because I want to own them. And yeah, Carolyn: I would totally d yeah, I'd do that. Yeah. Rebecca: I do that a lot. I've yeah, just recently I read some some really my favorite author of the moment whose name completely escapes me. Carolyn: also if you're getting your books through an actual app, then the author's getting something for that. But so many people aren't, right? You can get free Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: books online so easily. So by buying them, you know, you're actually Rebecca: So easily. Yeah. It's I Carolyn: supporting that author. Rebecca: well and what I do now, I have to admit, is often if it's not a brand new book, I buy it used. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: But if it's new, I go and I'll go buy it. So it's Jennifer Egan. Carolyn: Okay. Rebecca: And she wrote I read a book by her called The Keep. I don't know why suddenly this book got on my radar and I got it from the library. And I swear to god this book changed my life. So good. So so good. Carolyn: I've got this whole list. Rebecca: It's not a very long book. it's not a novella, but it's like it's a short novel. And then just recently, so because now I'm on a kick for her, I went to go buy the keep at a bookstore for a friend as a gift. And I couldn't find it, but I bought another book by her called A Visit from the Goon Squad. Carolyn: Okay. Rebecca: Also fantastic. And Carolyn: Even if you're buying a used book, you're having to get them usually from an indie bookstore, which is a Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: whole other, place that I can't even imagine what it's like working in publishing or Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: having a bookstore right now because it Rebecca: Well Carolyn: was bad like twenty years ago. Rebecca: I I know, right? I try and always go to independent bookstores. It's not it's not always easy, I have Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: to be honest. I buy a lot I have an app on my phone called Pango Books and you sell your books on there and other people buy your books. And so basically all of the money that I make on Pango Books, which is I mean it's like we're talking thirty dollars a year or something like this, Carolyn: Right, yeah. Rebecca: I just use it to buy other books. Carolyn: And then you just you pop them in the mail. Is it that one of those? Kinda like that Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: po Poshmark for your clothes. Rebecca: It's kinda like Podchmark for your clothes, but it's just your books, right? in a weird way it's like a lending library amongst friends, you know, and this you have these books going around. But I have to be honest, I can't walk by a bookstore without going in and buying something. Carolyn: It's dangerous. It's dangerous. It's how you end up with piles and piles in your house, right? Rebecca: Piles and piles. about every couple of years I have to go through and I make a huge pile of books that I I'm like, why do we even have these? But it helps. Now I have before we were moving all the time and I had to move all these goddamn books. It was like boxes and boxes and boxes of books and they're so heavy. But now the last time we moved, I I went to my dad's and I said, Hey, you're leaving me the house. We already discussed it. I'm bringing all my books here. I'm gonna set up a library. And he was like, Okay. So now Carolyn: Nice, that's Rebecca: that I have that, but you gotta be careful. Once you have a library, it's like a magnet. It just pulls more books into it. Mm. Carolyn: Have purged so many books. we used to be able to, because of where I worked, we had access to the random house like warehouse sales, and you could go in and buy just boxes and boxes and boxes of books for $30, right? And so you're just grabbing Rebecca: damn. yeah. Carolyn: everything that looks even vaguely interesting because they'd be two or three bucks a pop. Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: They were gonna get pulped if people didn't buy them. So like kids' books, cookbooks. Rebecca: god, it disgusts me. Carolyn: You know, Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: I mean it's really weird because publishing is one of the few places where if something doesn't sell, you return it to the manufacturer, right? Rebecca: wow. Carolyn: So we would do returns on a regular basis. So then, as a publisher, would get all these things back, and that's how things end up in those remainder piles, because then you resell them super cheap. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: Jesus. my God. That's insane. I can't even I mean it it's a totally sustainable system if it's all good. What could possibly Carolyn: It's not a sustainable system. Rebecca: go wrong? Carolyn: Yeah. Things might be totally different. It's been a long time. But yeah, and then Rebecca: Well Carolyn: for things like what we were talking about with little paperbacks and stuff, like the Harlequins, right? They would rotate. They're on a schedule. And when you'd Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: be done, you had to rip off the cover and the covers Rebecca: Cover, yeah. Carolyn: would get returned. But then you were supposed to crack them down the middle and th down the spine. Because you were illegally supposed to do that. But because the cleaners would try and take them and stuff, which I'm like, t please take them. But no, we had to Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: Crack 'down' the bedding. Rebecca: No but I as a kid, I mean we were poor as hell. I remember distinctly my mom getting me books with no covers on them. And I would make my own covers. Yeah. I would make my own covers. I remember that? Y you just reminded me of this. I had totally forgotten of this. Carolyn: That's the cutest thing. Rebecca: I would make my own covers. It was quite I made one for The Dark Is Rising. I don't know if you ever read that, but that was a big book when I was a kid. Carolyn: That is the cutest thing I've ever heard. we were gonna get into the dirty books that we read too young, but we could always do that another day. Because that is a whole other thing. Rebecca: Hm. Let's do that next week. Yeah, I think there's too much. And Carolyn: That is childhood trauma or not. Childhood awakening. Yeah. Maybe we we Rebecca: There was a little bit of that. Carolyn: can talk about that after after you've watched Heated Rivalry too, because I mean the covers of those books make them look like YA as well. Like they're not, Rebecca: Hmm. Carolyn: but they're very they're they're good, they're written fine, but they're not Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: like high literature, right? So they are very accessible for a younger audience. And I'm like, damn, like people are w the kids are watching this with their parents. I'm like, I would be more anyway, whole other topic. But do you remember sitting with your parents when a T V show was on and like people were kissing and you're like, my god, I'm so embarrassed. Yeah. Rebecca: And you're like you can't even look at your parents. You're like just sit really still and stare at the screen. Carolyn: Yeah, so watch them heated rivalry and then tell me what y twelve year old you would think watching that with your mother. Rebecca: Shit. Alright, I'll keep that one in mind. Are Carolyn: But that's a topic for a whole lot of day. my god. Rebecca: you trying to ruin it for me? Alright, I am excited. I am excited. Carolyn: I'm trying to amp you up. I'm trying to get you excited. Rebecca: I have to say I am excited. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Alright, so I guess this is time to wrap it up. We've been chatting. Ha ha Carolyn: We've been talking about books for an hour. St we got set off. Probably Rebecca: I could have gone for another two hours, I gotta be honest with you. But what do we gotta do? We have to pick our who's our saint? Who's our our nomination for sainthood? Yeah. Carolyn: Our saint, our saint of the day is the wonderful Cindy Lauper, right? I love her. Yeah. Rebecca: That's right. That's right. I absolutely love her. She's so great. Carolyn: And I have to say, as I think that she's so unusual came out in eighty three, I wanna say. And Rebecca: wow. Carolyn: I don't like back in the day I I did really like her, but I never would have pegged her as one of those people that would have this much lasting power. You know what I mean? Like, she's so quirky. Rebecca: Yeah, I'm especially she was well and then like Madonna came through and kinda st in in Somerset stole her shtick and made it way more sexy and Carolyn: I think Madonna started slightly before her. They were very much contemporaries in a lot of ways, except they just did things so differently, right? 'Cause Madonna was like, Rebecca: Super defending. Carolyn: look at me wearing lace a lace booster, whereas Cindy Lopper had on like fifteen skirts and bangles and you know, and just Yeah. Rebecca: Much more of a gypsy aesthetic. Well, I think I think the problem was is that the industry at that time could only have one girl doing that, Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: being that I quote unquote punky. You know what I mean? And so Carolyn: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's still, I've heard musicians, female musicians, years and years later saying that they would be told, we've already got a Christina Aguilera or whatever, right? we can't have you whoever you are. But yeah, in terms of lasting power, I've always liked her. She's always been outspoken, but Rebecca: Super great. Carolyn: she's been such a Great ally too, right? Her sister's a lesbian, which I did not know. Yeah. Rebecca: I didn't know that because she's been an ally before it was cool. You know what I mean? She's like since the very beginning. Yeah. Very vocal. Carolyn: Forever. Yeah. Yeah. And that was why. 'Cause her sister is a lesbian and so she's just always been so outspoken and then yeah, who would have seen that she would have written a musical too? she's Rebecca: I know. She is an insane songwriter. She's an insane songwriter. Unlike Carolyn: Yeah, she is. Yeah. Rebecca: a lot of pop artists, she wrote all of her songs. And man, they are amazing. And actually, I went to see her her last concert, and I think it's her last concert, might be. Sh the woman is 70 something. Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: She was phenomenal. Just absolutely phenomenal. And as she's singing all the songs, I was like, shit. This is her too, I forgot. shit, Carolyn: Yeah. Rebecca: this is her too. I forgot. Shibop. Do you know that that that song's about masturbation? Carolyn: Yes it is. I love that. This is the thing, right? I mean, like Rebecca: It Carolyn: she was always such an outspoken feminist at a time that Rebecca: Yeah. Carolyn: so many women were not really, you know, expressing their opinions on stuff 'cause it was shitty in the music business being a woman and it well still is. But the eighties well, we're getting there. Rebecca: Yeah, well. It still is sometimes. Yeah. We're getting better. Getting a little better. Yeah. Carolyn: But when I I look back to the eighties and the early nineties now and it really does seem like a long time ago and when I see opinions and the things that people would just say, you're like, shit. And she was an ally through the AIDS crisis. Rebecca: Like I said, before it was cool. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Carolyn: Yeah. No. She's and she's just like a good human being, it is. Rebecca: her energy is amazing. I have to be honest. and she is really unapologetic. She doesn't try and cover up her rough edges or anything like this. She is who she is. I Carolyn: No. Yeah. Rebecca: I really I do I really appreciate that. Okay. I accept your nomination for sainthood and I second it. Send it to the Pope. Carolyn: Awesome. Thank you. We should get those sync candles. We should get I have a Betty Page candle. We should get I think there are there probably are. I've seen some for other people too. There I'm sure there are. We have a collection of the Rebecca: I think there are ones of Dolly Parton. I think I've seen those. The this yeah, there must be. Carolyn: candles. Light a candle for Dolly. Light a candle for Cindy. Rebecca: lighting I'm all about I'm not very religious but I love to light a candle I gotta be honest. Yep. I love it. I write I light Carolyn: me either, but I love a good candle. Yep. Okay. Rebecca: a candle for all my important events. Awesome. Well thank you very much. I appreciate you. Yeah it was very fun. Carolyn: Thanks for joining us, listening to us yap for an hour about books. Rebecca: we hope you'll join us next time when I'm going to have watched at least two episodes of Heated Rivalry. Carolyn: Two Oooo Okay. Rebecca: Woo two. So that's this is I I promise Scouts honor. Okay? So all right. See you later. Carolyn: That sounds like a plan. All right. Join us next time. Rebecca: Bye. You've been listening to Talk Shit and Eat Chips with Carolyn Eagle and Rebecca Pennett. Edited and produced by the amazing Julia Boo. Music by The Mercy Ray. Please like and follow or leave us a review wherever it is you get your podcasts.