Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 200 - Tassos Gianakakos & Liz Nguyen - Kardigan

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Episode 200 - Tassos Gianakakos & Liz Nguyen - Kardigan · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:06
  Welcome back to another episode of the Bio Hub podcast.
• 0:09
  Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Tatos Yanakakos and Liz Wen,
• 0:14
  who are the CEO and CPO of Cardigan.
• 0:18
  In today's episode, Tatos and Liz will be talking through
• 0:21
  their career journeys, how they've worked together over the
• 0:23
  years to build successful people driven companies, and how that
• 0:27
  partnership is shaping what Cardigan is doing today.
• 0:30
  Thank you so much for coming on, both of you.
• 0:33
  Thank you for having us. Thanks, George.
• 0:34
  No worries. To start with, can you both
• 0:37
  share an overview of your careers that shaped your path to
• 0:40
  joining Cardigan? Perhaps Liz, you could go first.
• 0:44
  Yeah, I'm more than happy to. I would say that my career was
• 0:46
  shaped by my family. I came from a family of
• 0:50
  entrepreneurs who own local businesses and restaurants.
• 0:53
  And for me, see the intersection of building a business but also
• 0:57
  giving back to the community was really important to me.
• 1:00
  And so when I was growing up, it was important that I found an
• 1:03
  organization that was mission driven, but also was very
• 1:07
  entrepreneurial in spirit. And so my first entry point to
• 1:11
  HR was actually an internship where as a large insurance
• 1:14
  company and they're going through a major transformation.
• 1:17
  I knew nothing about human resources.
• 1:19
  I came in and was tasked to really help the employees
• 1:23
  navigate through this big change.
• 1:25
  I absolutely loved it. At the end of my internship, I
• 1:28
  asked my boss like, what is this work?
• 1:30
  How would you describe it? And she goes, this is human
• 1:33
  resources. So naturally I fell right into
• 1:35
  HR. It was great intersection of
• 1:38
  really seeing what the company was doing, but bringing people
• 1:40
  along. And since then, I've been in
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  biotech for 20 years. I've worked in big pharma
• 1:45
  companies and gradually got smaller.
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  And in 2015, I joined a company called Myocardia.
• 1:53
  And it was an incredible experience to see a therapy move
• 1:58
  from research through development and eventually
• 2:01
  through commercialization and just being part of a journey
• 2:04
  that was led by Tasos and our chief people office for the
• 2:08
  time. Being part of building that
• 2:10
  company and the culture that we created, it was so memorable.
• 2:14
  And so naturally, when I got a call from Tasos about starting
• 2:18
  another company, I was like, I'm all in.
• 2:21
  It was a no brainer. Like Liz?
• 2:23
  I'm the son of Greek immigrants. They came to this country.
• 2:27
  I was born and raised in Chicago pickups fan and that
• 2:32
  entrepreneurial energy, kind of the risk taking vibe was
• 2:35
  definitely part of my DNA and I saw it in.
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  Action I also saw a lot of hard. Work and grind from my family
• 2:43
  and my extended family. And so as a young age, I
• 2:46
  gravitated towards math and science.
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  I went to MIT. There was a professor there who,
• 2:51
  you know, grabbed. A naive kind of.
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  Slightly clueless Second. Year student in chemical
• 3:00
  engineering and pushed me in the direction of biopharmaceuticals
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  where MIT at the time was. Just really at the.
• 3:06
  Cutting edge of discovering and developing processes to get, you
• 3:11
  know, human proteins. Manufactured.
• 3:13
  This is like. Ancient history lesson here.
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  By the way. Manufactured in, you know,
• 3:18
  commercial scale bioreactors. And I fell in love with the
• 3:22
  industry, the purpose of the industry at a really young age.
• 3:26
  I wasn't exactly. Sure how I would.
• 3:27
  I would engage. Yeah.
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  I I think I would characterize myself as a failed scientist.
• 3:32
  I tried, you know, to go to grad school, get a PhD.
• 3:35
  I'm like, I don't think I'm going to be really good at this.
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  And so I got a job in industry doing research, thinking, hey,
• 3:41
  maybe the industrial setting will be the place for me.
• 3:44
  And that was at Merck. And it was at a time where it
• 3:48
  was just an amazing experience. We had just come off an
• 3:52
  incredible run of a phenomenal leader in.
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  Doctor Vagelos there. World's most respected company,
• 4:00
  which is, you know, not exactly how we view biopharma today.
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  And it left a really indelible impression on me.
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  I learned a lot about the industry.
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  How it works I also. Learned that you know, large
• 4:12
  organization is probably not where kind of I want to be and
• 4:17
  so like. All.
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  You know, young people looking for direction.
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  I went back to school, I got my MBA and then I, I, I met a
• 4:25
  person who kind of roped me into moving to the Bay Area and
• 4:31
  joining my first start up and so.
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  That was about 5 or 6 start-ups ago.
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  And it was just amazing. Just I love the the, the
• 4:39
  excitement. I love the ambiguity.
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  I started to understand. Kind of the things about myself
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  that might, you know, be a strength that I can contribute.
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  And I was really. Given a shot by a group of
• 4:54
  investors. Third Rock Ventures.
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  Maybe about 15 years. Ago to be the first CEO.
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  At a company they were starting in cardiology called Myocardia.
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  And for me, you know, I, it was a tremendous experience, made a
• 5:11
  lot of mistakes, had a lot of incredible people supporting me
• 5:15
  there. But from the get go, I, I, I
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  just leaned on people and culture.
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  I am not like a savant kind of scientist.
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  I don't see that part in slow motion like some of my
• 5:31
  colleagues do. I had never managed a or LED an
• 5:35
  organization that did such cutting edge and incredible
• 5:37
  research as we've done at Myocamia.
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  But I mean I. I I brought.
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  One thing to the table in my view, and I think it turned out
• 5:47
  to be the thing that was a huge part in making a difference in
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  an area which we can talk. A little bit about.
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  Of cardiovascular medicine that is still really underserved and
• 5:59
  there are some structural reasons in our industry and I do
• 6:02
  think that culture is 1. Of the important levers to.
• 6:07
  Breaking through and getting better medicines to people in
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  the world, which in this disease area is really, really needed.
• 6:14
  Yeah, fantastic. Thank you for that overview.
• 6:17
  And Tasos, just following on from that, talk us in a bit more
• 6:20
  detail through Cardigan. Yeah, so.
• 6:24
  You know, at Myocardio we started to see some glimpses of
• 6:30
  what taking what we call a precision medicine approach.
• 6:33
  When cardiology could deliver. And it's really gratifying to
• 6:38
  see that not only those ideas at the time which were not.
• 6:41
  Necessarily super popular, it was difficult to.
• 6:43
  Get the company financed. It was.
• 6:45
  Difficult to get. You know, incredible.
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  Talent as early as we're. Getting here now at Cardigan.
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  It was unproven. Because the historical model,
• 6:54
  which is still. By and large, exist today is one
• 6:57
  that is really capital inefficient.
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  It takes, you know, a long time. With very.
• 7:02
  Expensive and large clinical trials to move forward in this
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  traditional model where you're looking at, you know, basically
• 7:09
  hard outcomes like death and rehospitalizations and other
• 7:14
  things of that nature with medicines that are not targeting
• 7:17
  the root. Cause of the disease.
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  So those medicines? Are variably effective.
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  You're doing these large studies to see and discriminate very
• 7:26
  small signal to noise ratios and you know over the last 15 or 20
• 7:32
  years we have seen the power of precision medicine and really
• 7:36
  targeting the root cause in well defined homogeneous patient
• 7:40
  populations and other disease areas like you think about what
• 7:43
  we're doing in HIV, we. Effectively have cured HIV.
• 7:45
  And we now have like protective medicines for HIV, which is
• 7:48
  amazing. And Gilead.
• 7:50
  Deserves a lot of the credit in. Persisting in that area, we see
• 7:54
  the same in cystic. Fibrosis we are.
• 7:56
  Seeing this in certain cancers. So.
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  We knew. That this approach could.
• 8:01
  Yield benefit. It just wasn't, really.
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  Done in cardiology and people were.
• 8:04
  Suspicious of our ability to pull it off.
• 8:07
  Is the FDA going to be? Supportive, you know, do we
• 8:10
  think we can actually make any money on this?
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  And so ultimately, not only were the FDA supportive and I think
• 8:16
  generally the FDA is. Is is very supportive,
• 8:19
  especially this. Division, the cardio renal
• 8:21
  division for us in my experience over the last 20 years and now
• 8:24
  we've got not only. You know we had.
• 8:28
  Bristol-Myers Squibb bought the company and is doing a great job
• 8:31
  with the medicine. But the drug got approved.
• 8:33
  It's out there helping a lot of people.
• 8:35
  Liz and I get calls and we meet patients all the time who are
• 8:39
  thanking us for what we've done. I've handwritten letters from
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  folks that really. You know, that's the
• 8:44
  inspiration. You know, I share those with my
• 8:46
  boys and, and with my family and they're they're just like blown
• 8:48
  away. Like this can actually happen,
• 8:50
  right? You can do a job where you
• 8:52
  affect somebody in this way. And so.
• 8:55
  We got a sense of what's possible.
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  And with a. Culture.
• 9:00
  That's really purpose. Driven and.
• 9:03
  Values based of Great. Scientists, but we we had some
• 9:07
  unfinished business like we got to the end where sort of things
• 9:10
  started getting really interesting and then the company
• 9:12
  was acquired so I spent. The the 1st 6.
• 9:17
  To 12 months thinking. About along with my.
• 9:20
  Co founder Jay Edelberg, cardiologist thinking about OK,
• 9:24
  how can we do this? Better what are the?
• 9:26
  Tools that we will need, how should we think about developing
• 9:30
  the team and the culture and Cardigan was launched along with
• 9:35
  AI will say a sister company Proleo, which we can talk a
• 9:38
  little. Bit about that is.
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  Software and technology enabled. To really help us.
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  Bend the productivity curve and get many, many more medicines
• 9:47
  that. Are.
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  You know, we we like to think of trying to get closer to cures,
• 9:51
  getting to functional cures. Which is a bold.
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  Statement. But really, we want medicines.
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  That are affecting how? People feel they and they
• 9:59
  improve their symptoms, they improve their function and that
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  work in, you know, like 90% of the people they're supposed to
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  work in, not like 30% of the people, which is typically what
• 10:08
  you see in these cardiovascular medicines and so.
• 10:12
  That was it. We got unfinished business.
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  We've learned from our mistakes. Now we have an opportunity to
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  really do. This at a much larger scale
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  because we have some. Tools that we just didn't have
• 10:23
  before, and Cardigan was born as a result.
• 10:27
  And here we are today, almost a couple of years in with multiple
• 10:32
  programs that have incredible potential to help a lot of.
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  People that are. Late in clinical development and
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  an organization that is just really, really energized and and
• 10:41
  dedicated to make it happen. Fascinating.
• 10:44
  Thank you for the overview and you can really hear the passion
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  that comes through as well. One of the things I'll pick up
• 10:49
  there you, you mentioned culture quite a few times throughout.
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  Liz, if we go to you, what, what kind of culture are you
• 10:55
  intentionally looking to build at Cardigan?
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  And I guess why is that so critical to achieving the
• 11:02
  mission? You know, it's hard to believe
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  that Cardigan was born about a little over two years ago,
• 11:09
  right? And so it's been really
• 11:11
  exciting. I think the early days of
• 11:13
  Cardigan, I remember being in a small conference room with
• 11:17
  Tassis, Jay and some of our early employees just talking
• 11:20
  about the importance of culture. At the time.
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  We were stealth. We were very private, still
• 11:25
  private, but we knew we had to grow a lot.
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  And one of the foundation elements that we put in place
• 11:30
  early was investing in culture. In fact, two of our first couple
• 11:34
  of hires were people and the people and culture team.
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  And so we knew in order for us to attract great talent, we
• 11:39
  needed to define our culture and build a strong foundation of of
• 11:44
  our values. And this was critical as we're
• 11:46
  thinking about opening up, you know, three offices for
• 11:49
  Cardigan. And so today we're at 230
• 11:52
  employees with expected growth to be at 355 by the end of the
• 11:57
  year. And we put in place culture and
• 11:59
  values that really helped us scale with our growth.
• 12:03
  In fact, we worked closely with our Chief Communications Officer
• 12:06
  on developing our core values. What you heard from Tasos is
• 12:08
  reflective, joining us tab at Myocardia of enabling the
• 12:12
  impossible, which is why many of us join here as just being part
• 12:15
  of something different and new and really transforming the
• 12:18
  landscape for cardiovascular disease.
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  So that's an important element of our culture is our values.
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  And the other piece I want to share is that early on, we made
• 12:28
  a commitment truly fostering this in person connection.
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  And it's really enabled us to build relationships in person,
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  especially when you're growing really fast, getting to meet, to
• 12:39
  know colleagues, sharing discoveries, getting to know
• 12:43
  each other, celebrating corporate milestones, but also
• 12:46
  personal milestones like weddings and baby showers.
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  I personally find it so awesome to see the conversations we have
• 12:53
  in the hallways and to see people collaborating and really
• 12:57
  focusing on solving problems together.
• 12:59
  At the same time, what we move through flexibility.
• 13:02
  We all of us have lives without of work.
• 13:04
  And so we're intentional about ensuring that we create a
• 13:07
  flexible work environment, but also really benefit from being
• 13:11
  in the office. And so Cardigan, you know, we're
• 13:14
  fast moving, we're mission driven, and I'll be honest, it's
• 13:18
  not for everyone. We're trying to do something
• 13:20
  really different. And so our people need to be
• 13:22
  comfortable being in this fast-paced environment.
• 13:25
  We are comfortable challenging each other's ideas, coming up
• 13:28
  with new things, working cross site, cross functionally.
• 13:31
  And so we attract individuals who are innovative and creative
• 13:34
  and are really passionate about what we do.
• 13:38
  So as we look ahead, we're hiring aggressively.
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  As I mentioned, we're adding over 100 jobs across research
• 13:43
  development, GNA and also at Proleo.
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  As Toss was mentioned, we're also building our first summer
• 13:50
  internship program. And so I think we're investing
• 13:53
  quite a bit and building an early pipeline of new talent to
• 13:55
  the organization. I'm also excited about this year
• 13:59
  because we're investing a lot in leadership.
• 14:02
  We're investing in a program called Leading a Cardigan.
• 14:05
  And as Taos has mentioned to many of us is that we have great
• 14:08
  programs, but in order for us to be successful, it's also
• 14:12
  ensuring that we have great leaders in place.
• 14:14
  So this year we're doing a whole lot around helping enable and
• 14:17
  build a tool kit for employees to lead self, lead others, lead
• 14:21
  the enterprise and also focus on career development
• 14:24
  conversations. We're creating rotational
• 14:26
  opportunities. And so we're really investing
• 14:28
  that muscle because that's going to be important for us to be
• 14:30
  successful. So everyone at Cardigan is a
• 14:34
  leader and we also want to give our employees the tools and
• 14:37
  experiences to help them be successful and to deliver for
• 14:40
  our patients. And if I can add, I mean at the
• 14:43
  beginning of the company here, you know, Liz, like I think Liz
• 14:46
  joined the company before the company was like officially.
• 14:49
  Launched. So that's a it was really.
• 14:51
  Intentional. We really wanted.
• 14:52
  To have I wanted to have a thought.
• 14:54
  Partner, I got to know Liz. At our previous company.
• 14:57
  And. That's a statement of how
• 15:00
  important it is for us to build the right kind of culture and
• 15:04
  organization. To hire the right people and you
• 15:06
  know, I think we in our industry.
• 15:08
  We there's a lot of emphasis. On Like Science and that's.
• 15:14
  There should be for sure, but not at the.
• 15:16
  Expense of thinking about, you know, the.
• 15:18
  Culture, people, People. Development these programs that
• 15:21
  Liz is talking. About and so we saw that that
• 15:25
  that. Kind of focus is just it's.
• 15:26
  Good for business. Right.
• 15:27
  I mean, it's not like just, hey, we're having a good time and,
• 15:30
  you know, we're having kind of like social events, which we do
• 15:33
  and things like that, but. People here are serious people.
• 15:36
  Who want to win and they want to get their.
• 15:37
  Work done so you know we. Create often these.
• 15:42
  False set of choices. Between, you know, this is about
• 15:45
  the science and let's really focus on that because, you know,
• 15:49
  building the right culture if it's not intentional and not a
• 15:53
  priority if you're not like. Wired for it, it's hard to do.
• 15:56
  Right, because the job in a startup, in any startup is tough
• 15:59
  and so. If you've got your To Do List.
• 16:02
  Of things you know, that's not on the top of the list to
• 16:05
  necessarily help you get that next round of funding or to
• 16:08
  unlock, you know, the next data milestone.
• 16:11
  So. You really gotta believe in it
• 16:13
  and it it, you can't fake it. And so getting Liz on board was
• 16:18
  a huge thing. Broadcasting this early also
• 16:21
  creates sort of a. Depending on your point of view.
• 16:25
  Creates. Like a a concentrating effect.
• 16:27
  Or or a repellent. Right screen and these are all
• 16:31
  things you know you learn over time and so we.
• 16:33
  Saw it. And I think we have done an
• 16:35
  incredible job of getting people here who are really.
• 16:39
  Focused. On changing the.
• 16:41
  World for people with serious cardiovascular disease.
• 16:45
  And doing it differently, you know, really genuinely embracing
• 16:49
  new. Technological approaches.
• 16:51
  In our late stage clinical trials, it's not like a future
• 16:54
  thing. It's a the day thing.
• 16:56
  And to me, if this is resonating with any of your listeners who
• 17:00
  are thinking about like really making a difference in society
• 17:03
  and the world's number one pillar.
• 17:04
  Which is cardiovascular disease. Working in a fast-paced
• 17:08
  organization that. Really cares about.
• 17:10
  Developing people because ultimately that is going to lead
• 17:13
  to better medicines faster for more people.
• 17:17
  This is sort of. Where we're at?
• 17:19
  If it's not that exciting to to you or if you know.
• 17:22
  A lot of structure, right? A lot of sort of direction.
• 17:28
  We want to stay informal, right? We, we want to basically be an
• 17:32
  organization that keeps this sort of energy when we're 1000
• 17:36
  or 2000 people and. If all of that is appealing,
• 17:39
  then you should definitely get in touch with us because we are
• 17:42
  looking to grow. Absolutely.
• 17:44
  Now you, you can tell just listening to you both talk how
• 17:46
  important that's been throughout the journey.
• 17:49
  How, how is the role of CEO and CPO complement each other in a
• 17:53
  growing biotech and what does that effective partnership
• 17:56
  between the two of you look like on a day-to-day basis?
• 18:00
  Well, I can I can start on that. Liz, you know.
• 18:03
  So Liz and I are super connected, right?
• 18:05
  We had. There's a lot of trust.
• 18:07
  I think it's important as you build your team and that
• 18:10
  includes, you know, you're, you're chief people.
• 18:12
  Culture officer, but all of the folks.
• 18:15
  On my executive leadership team, we are all effectively
• 18:18
  interchangeable around the business.
• 18:21
  Like. Everybody understands the
• 18:22
  business, what we need, what we have to achieve, how we're going
• 18:26
  to create value for various stakeholders, our employees, the
• 18:29
  patients that we're here for and our investors.
• 18:32
  As well. And shareholders.
• 18:34
  And so that is not sort of relegated to like the CEO or the
• 18:39
  CFO. It's everybody so.
• 18:41
  That takes some intentionality. Want to hire those?
• 18:44
  People who? Are, you know, enterprise wide
• 18:46
  thinkers? But then you, you know, you I
• 18:48
  need to engage them in that way as well.
• 18:50
  Right. As opposed to like, hey, you
• 18:52
  know. This is this is an HR thing.
• 18:54
  You stay in your swim lane, which is I think is nuts because
• 18:57
  the biggest, the biggest challenge we have at Cardigan is
• 19:00
  really scaling our. Leadership.
• 19:02
  We're super. Confident in our science.
• 19:04
  We have incredible programs ultimately.
• 19:07
  It is about execution. In order to get those programs
• 19:11
  to patients, the right patients as quickly as possible and doing
• 19:13
  it in a super robust. Way.
• 19:16
  It's been very challenging in our industry, maybe in any
• 19:19
  industry to scale multiple important therapies
• 19:24
  simultaneously. And you know, we have 3 right
• 19:27
  now that are in late stage and we're we have our eye on more.
• 19:30
  So. In many ways, like my mission
• 19:32
  which is people and culture based is to unlock that aspect
• 19:37
  and I can't do that. Without a really.
• 19:40
  Strong partner in Liz and we obsess.
• 19:43
  Over this right we. Spend.
• 19:45
  We we talk every. Day, I mean, Liz helps me with
• 19:50
  the sort of individual conversations about how to
• 19:53
  unlock a certain person's potential, how to think about,
• 19:57
  you know, appropriate ways to recruit and retain the right
• 20:02
  people once we have them. From here, a lot of the
• 20:05
  retention relates to how people feel the company is investing in
• 20:10
  them. Are they learning?
• 20:11
  Are they growing? Are they stretching but also
• 20:14
  able? To harvest their skills.
• 20:16
  To impact like today. So there's this mix that creates
• 20:20
  this situation of like optimal engagement, which ultimately
• 20:25
  leads to optimal performance and efficiency.
• 20:28
  And so those are the flip side of the same coin.
• 20:31
  And so in many ways, we have incredible science here, like
• 20:36
  our scientific leadership is amazing.
• 20:38
  And so, you know, our job is to find out how to unlock.
• 20:42
  Support that. As creative as we are in R&D, we
• 20:46
  want to be creative in how we commercialize our medicines.
• 20:49
  We're seeing some really interesting things happen in our
• 20:51
  industry for the first time, engaging directly with with.
• 20:54
  The. The patient, the consumer of our
• 20:56
  medicines in a different way, that's kind of what we're about.
• 21:00
  So if you think about that, you have to create an environment
• 21:04
  for people where they feel they can trust themselves and take.
• 21:08
  Thoughtful risk. This is a risky.
• 21:10
  Business at the end of the day, what we do this isn't I mean
• 21:12
  that's you know otherwise we wouldn't see you know one out of
• 21:15
  every 100 medicines that are in discovery phase make it to to
• 21:20
  people eventually. So if you if you change your
• 21:23
  frame and I almost think. About us, you know.
• 21:26
  Developing a group. Of, you know, artists.
• 21:29
  Right. Who are innovative and creative
• 21:31
  and enabling them to tap that creativity in a way that's
• 21:34
  channelled in the same direction.
• 21:36
  And I have to do it with Liz, right?
• 21:40
  And so, and the good news for me is that.
• 21:42
  Liz is totally wired for this as well.
• 21:44
  And you know, she is an incredible student of not just
• 21:48
  our. Industry, but just of really
• 21:50
  innovative approaches to unlocking this.
• 21:54
  And you know, I mean for a. 2 year old company.
• 21:58
  On one hand, I'm not surprised because, you know, this was
• 22:00
  intentional and we brought in Liz early, but we have such an
• 22:04
  incredible focus and a lot of programs that I think you tend
• 22:07
  to get after maybe companies have like.
• 22:11
  A drug approved. It's nothing of that name, so it
• 22:14
  seems these kinds. Of things seem obvious.
• 22:16
  To to Liz, but she has it is as important.
• 22:21
  As anybody in the organization and the the.
• 22:25
  Work that she's doing. I think ultimately.
• 22:28
  Unlocks everything else that's going on.
• 22:31
  In the company so. Maybe I I annoy much with my,
• 22:35
  you know, text messaging and calls, but there's a lot of
• 22:38
  interaction. I don't know, Liz, do I?
• 22:40
  I. Probably do use by text
• 22:41
  messaging. So no.
• 22:44
  I think I feel really lucky to have to, to work with Tasos.
• 22:49
  I, I again, I think it's unable, the impossible.
• 22:52
  You, you hold each of the C-Suite members and all the
• 22:55
  leaders here accountable to that.
• 22:56
  Like, how can we be different, right?
• 22:59
  How can we push the envelope? How can we set the standard for
• 23:01
  the industry? And I think a lot of it requires
• 23:04
  being candid, real time feedback.
• 23:08
  You, you, you're always pushing to think bigger and better.
• 23:11
  You think, you push all of us to think bigger and better.
• 23:13
  And I think as a result of that, that's how we've been able to
• 23:17
  grow the organization so quickly with wonderful people.
• 23:20
  But I think that foreign partner being open and candid and also
• 23:24
  integrating the business strategy with people and
• 23:27
  culture, right. Otherwise the PNC or HR programs
• 23:32
  are one off. If that fully integrate into the
• 23:34
  mission in terms of what we're doing and prioritize, it won't
• 23:37
  have the same impact. But I think that conversation
• 23:40
  also that I had is ensuring that there's alignment and clear
• 23:44
  outcomes we're looking for. And so anyways, it's been a lot
• 23:47
  of fun. And that's the reason why I'm
• 23:48
  here is to work for people like Tausers.
• 23:50
  And I think that it's a really unique place that has been
• 23:54
  established here. Yeah.
• 23:55
  It is clear to see how strong a people strategy and environment
• 23:58
  that you've created so far in the short time that cardigan
• 24:02
  has, you know, been live. Liz, touching on a little bit
• 24:05
  what you mentioned earlier, what are the plans for 2026 and
• 24:09
  beyond that in terms of, you know, people growth and sort of
• 24:12
  maintaining that culture as you continue to get a bigger
• 24:14
  organization? Yeah.
• 24:17
  So as I mentioned earlier, we are really focused on scaling
• 24:21
  the organization and bringing out, bringing in new talent on
• 24:26
  multiple disciplines within research, development,
• 24:28
  commercial GNA also really helping expand our pro Peleo.
• 24:34
  You know, the early days of Cardigan, two years ago, we were
• 24:37
  focused more mostly on cultural values and really building the
• 24:40
  foundation. Now it's expanding our hiring
• 24:43
  efforts and expanding our presence in Princeton and
• 24:45
  Chicago, but also going into depth around leadership
• 24:49
  development and really focus on developing our employees so that
• 24:53
  we can scale with the organization.
• 24:55
  So that's really the primary focus for 2026.
• 24:58
  Anything else that you'd like to add to Asus?
• 25:00
  I think it's, I think that's. Exactly right.
• 25:02
  You know, we are in a phase right now in the company where
• 25:05
  we have. A lot of development efforts.
• 25:09
  Underway, We have many clinical trials underway.
• 25:12
  And so we are, the growth efforts are also.
• 25:18
  Ones where we're mindful. Of you know.
• 25:19
  Execution as well. So it's a tricky balance
• 25:21
  between, you know, growing. So a lot of obsession over
• 25:25
  effective onboarding of people of.
• 25:27
  Course the hiring process and making sure you know we're
• 25:30
  we're. Thoughtful about, not just.
• 25:32
  The let's say the technical competencies of people, which
• 25:36
  you know often are a lot. Easier to the cultural, the
• 25:40
  behavioral kind of fit. And and you know it's.
• 25:43
  Not a jump necessarily, as much as.
• 25:46
  To. Really trying to find the right
• 25:48
  fit, right? And so a lot about that.
• 25:52
  Liz has got a A with the rest. Of the the team here has got.
• 25:56
  An A. Laser focus on effective
• 26:00
  onboarding. Like we need it, right?
• 26:01
  Because we need people. To be as productive.
• 26:04
  And as as engaged as quickly. As they can.
• 26:07
  And all of that is. Can be challenging if you're not
• 26:10
  really thoughtful. About it, just given all the
• 26:12
  work that's actually. Happening and making time to
• 26:15
  think beyond like what am I doing this week or this quarter?
• 26:18
  And how is this going to play out so?
• 26:20
  We think about that in terms of our, you know, existing kind of,
• 26:24
  you know, product development horizon, but we're also taking a
• 26:27
  look at what's around the corner.
• 26:29
  Three to five years. From now looking at.
• 26:32
  Efforts outside the US for us, right?
• 26:34
  These patients are global. Our mission is to.
• 26:37
  Get our medicines if we. Can get them.
• 26:39
  Approved to people around the world.
• 26:42
  So what does that look like? What does the?
• 26:43
  Organizational design look like. How does that create
• 26:49
  opportunities? When you paint that vision.
• 26:52
  Of what is the company? 'S profile in 20-30.
• 26:55
  What opportunities are created for?
• 26:57
  People who are here. Right.
• 26:58
  Often you know when you talk to employees if if you're not
• 27:02
  helping them see how the company is going to grow and where it
• 27:05
  can be it's. Very difficult, you know you're.
• 27:07
  Limited, right, in terms of the opportunity space that you can
• 27:10
  explore with them. You know you have scientists who
• 27:12
  want to get more exposure to the business.
• 27:14
  Side of. The company and and vice versa.
• 27:17
  People who are thinking about moving.
• 27:18
  Closer to later stage. Product engagement Maybe there
• 27:22
  are opportunities for them to take on more responsibility as
• 27:25
  we grow in other. Regions or with other programs
• 27:28
  so. Everything that Liz is doing is
• 27:31
  complicated. By the fact that there's a lot
• 27:34
  of today stuff. Right, with the organization
• 27:37
  that we have and how it's growing and you know, I'm also.
• 27:40
  You know, kind of dragging her, it's not that hard.
• 27:42
  Actually into conversations about.
• 27:44
  You know, the next chapter and what that looks like and.
• 27:47
  Those are very synergistic. And powerful.
• 27:50
  Because we have. People here.
• 27:53
  Who can work anywhere. They're extremely talented.
• 27:56
  They there's no shortage in pretty much in any job market.
• 27:59
  Of. Opportunities that they can get.
• 28:01
  So we feel fortunate that they chose to come work.
• 28:04
  Here, and we have a commitment to keep them here.
• 28:07
  That. Involves investing in them and
• 28:10
  their. Growth and thinking.
• 28:11
  About that, even at times if you know it may not.
• 28:15
  Necessarily be a perfect. Fit with the business needs.
• 28:18
  You still have to have that. Conversation and you still.
• 28:21
  Really have to support that person.
• 28:22
  I mean I have. People on my team who definitely
• 28:25
  can run companies in the CEO slot for now.
• 28:27
  Like, I'm in that seat, right? So think about what?
• 28:31
  It looks like. To keep that firepower.
• 28:34
  Engaged, motivated, and really. Driving here, so you got to
• 28:39
  really work on it and ultimately it's a lot.
• 28:42
  Of fun for us. To do it.
• 28:43
  I think it's one of the most fulfilling parts of my job and
• 28:49
  I'm really thankful that I've got Liz.
• 28:50
  And beyond that, like if you had a conversation today, George,
• 28:54
  with anyone on not just the leadership team, probably
• 28:57
  anywhere in the organization, but most definitely our
• 28:59
  executive leadership and then sort of the next.
• 29:01
  Level of. Senior.
• 29:03
  Leaders worldwide this way. And that's.
• 29:06
  The powerful thing, and I think that's how.
• 29:08
  You know we, we. Sort of.
• 29:12
  We are. We are.
• 29:13
  Always thinking about like how to.
• 29:15
  Continue to nurture. What's special?
• 29:18
  And then we're. Terrified of.
• 29:20
  Losing it when? We start getting larger.
• 29:23
  And so there's this, you know, inertia that takes you to like.
• 29:26
  When you're larger, you're global, you know, you just have
• 29:30
  to. Canonically kind of drop.
• 29:33
  Into a different model of, you know.
• 29:35
  Committees and bureaucracy and PowerPoints.
• 29:37
  And all the stuff that we really are not.
• 29:40
  Down with and so. The way to solve that, at least
• 29:43
  in part. And avoid that happening is.
• 29:46
  Really. Focusing on.
• 29:48
  That group of leaders? You know, 20 to 50.
• 29:52
  Of them that are really. Touching the entire
• 29:55
  organization, like day-to-day and if they have the same level
• 29:58
  of passion that we do. Here, which they do.
• 30:01
  Then we're going to we're going to win on this front and so.
• 30:05
  That's a big part of what we talk about and how we're wired.
• 30:09
  Fantastic. That was really fascinating and
• 30:12
  I think the passion from both of you really comes through that.
• 30:15
  That was honestly probably one of the favourite podcasts that
• 30:17
  I've ever done here from both of you talk about the culture, what
• 30:20
  you've created and where you're going.
• 30:23
  Thank you so much to both of you for for coming to the Biohub and
• 30:26
  I'm sure the listeners are going to be thrilled to to tune in and
• 30:30
  hopefully it helps with some of the recruitment that you guys
• 30:32
  have towards the the back end of this year.
• 30:35
  Thank you so much George. This is great.
• 30:37
  Thanks for giving us the chance to talk.
• 30:38
  About it, it's great. Appreciate what you do.