Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / Stop the Threat. Stop the Stigma. A. Meyers - Police Capt, Survival, & the Cost of Carrying It Alone

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Stop the Threat. Stop the Stigma. A. Meyers - Police Capt, Survival, & the Cost of Carrying It Alone · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• speaker-0: There, stupid computers. speaker-1: I'm on my cell phone. Is that okay? Does it sound okay? Okay, should I is it your podcast is only an audio right? It's not visual recording. Okay, yeah, I can just I can just do it on my cell phone if you want to do that. Okay, cool. speaker-0: You sound great. Yeah, it's just audio. That's perfectly fine with me. I apologize for that. My internet was being stupid and had to swap networks. And yeah, anyways. speaker-1: It's okay. Yeah, mine was mine even said network is struggling to something and I'm like, yeah, we're I'm struggling too. It's okay. Don't worry about it. speaker-0: I appreciate you being here. This is my first time using Google, so this is interesting to me, but hey. speaker-1: Yeah, no problem. Okay. speaker-0: All right, so any questions before we get started at all? speaker-1: No, not at all. Just if you have any questions at all, any additional questions, I'm really transparent when I share my experience. So if anything comes to mind, feel free to ask. I'll answer any questions. just want to be as transparent as possible to help people. So don't hold anything back. Just let me have it. speaker-0: All right, so let's go ahead and get started. The following content is graphic, emotional, includes dark humor that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised. These stories are based on real life EMS, military, and healthcare experiences. Calls are real, providers are real, names and details have been changed to protect privacy. They may be disturbing to some and are definitely inappropriate for a tour department. Any medical or mental health discussion is personal experience, not protocol. Use your damn brain, follow your local guidelines, and what a doubt called make control. If you're struggling, don't do it alone. Talk to someone, a coworker, a friend, a therapist, or hell. Reach out to me, I'll answer. Need help right now? Text or call 988 or visit 988lifeline.org. You're listening to Dispatch Dysfunctional where chaos has a pulse and the weight of the job doesn't clock out when you do. The shows exist for the conversations that happen after the incident, after the report, after the review board, after everyone expects you to be fine. Today's guest understands the weight from that place very few people ever will. Adam Myers spent years in law enforcement rising through the ranks to become a police captain. A role that carries authority, responsibility, and an expectation to be steady no matter what's happening behind the scenes. Adam's story isn't just about a critical incident. It's about leadership under pressure, survival under scrutiny, and the stigma that follows when the uniform stops protecting you. Before we talk about incidents, investigations, or advocacy, Adam, I want you to start where we always start. For people listening right now, who are you and what do you want them to take away from this episode when it's over? speaker-1: Well, thanks, Christopher. My name's Adam. I was born and raised in Wisconsin in the city of Racine. And I think I'm just a normal guy. know, when I was a young boy, I wanted to grow up and be a police officer. Actually, when I was a little boy, I called it an ur-car man. ⁓ Because when I first saw a police car, I thought it was an ur-car because of the siren. And then once I saw a police officer get out of the squad car, I was like, an ur-car man. I want to be an ur-car man. So. For all my life, just thought, you know, I just did what I thought was necessary to, you know, stay out of trouble, graduate from high school, go to college, join the military and do what I thought was necessary to reach that goal of being an aircraft man or a police officer. But, you know, I'm almost 51 years old. Next month I'll be 51. I have two daughters who are 28. Sydney Marie is 28 years old and my youngest daughter, Peyton Elizabeth is 24. I'm divorced, so I'm kind of a statistic in law enforcement. But we're cordial and we get along well. We were high school sweethearts and stuff like that. And ⁓ we ended up getting divorced after 11 years of being married while I was a cop. She knew me before I was and how important that was to me and stuff like that. So yeah, I just, ⁓ I'm still a police officer. I'm a captain with the Hartford Township Police Department in Wisconsin. 24 years experience, which is great. Although I'm older, that comes with wisdom and experience, so I ⁓ gotta take advantage of that as much as I can. speaker-0: Hell yeah. Have you been at the same department the whole time? speaker-1: I haven't. I started my career in 2001 with the city of Racine, which is my hometown. City of Racine is in Wisconsin. It's located between Chicago, Illinois and Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And worked there for five, six years. That was like a dream come true. That's where it all started, you know, in Racine. And I was lucky enough to start my career in my hometown. And then I moved up north where I took another job where ⁓ my critical incident happened. speaker-0: I gotcha. All right. So before the moment, everything changed. I want listeners to understand who you were, what you were walking into. You weren't new. You weren't inexperienced. You were just another officer on the street. You were a police captain. So how long had you been in law enforcement at this point to where this incident happened? speaker-1: Yeah, my critical incident happened on Friday, April 8th, 2016. I wasn't a captain at the time. ⁓ Ultimately, I was fired from that department and then was out of law enforcement for a year and worked on my mental health, got better, and then got hired and eventually became a captain at a different department. yeah, Friday, April 8th, 2016, 5.15 p.m., a real busy day. And ⁓ I got dispatched to our local Walmart. for somebody who was refusing to leave the store. Now, this person was named Melissa. She was suffering with some mental health challenges. She was actually a patient at a mental health facility, a state-run mental health facility in a jurisdiction next to our community. And it's my understanding she was out on a good behavior pass with two of her chaperones. And they had gone to one of the local fast food restaurants. And then after that, they decided to go over to Walmart and do some shopping. When the chaperones told Melissa it was time to leave, she refused to leave and went back to the spawning goods section where she ripped open a hatchet from the packaging and then started following customers and threatening customers with it. So I was at the police department. You know, it was just a normal day. was a Friday. My shift began at 11 a.m. I was scheduled to work until 7.30 p.m. And at the time of the call, I was seated. you know, in one of the offices at the police department typing up a retail theft report. And I got dispatched to Walmart. Initially, the call was a 911 hang up call. Dispatch was able to get one of the chaperones back on the line and kind of figure out what was going on and then dispatch me to Walmart. it wasn't an emergent call by any means. It was basically respond to Walmart and assist two chaperones with with a person who's refusing to leave the store. And they needed some help with that. We do that all the time. It's no big deal. We respond to restaurants, retail stores, people's homes, other businesses, no big deal. So I grabbed my laptop and I started walking out the back of the police department. I jumped in my squad car and I drove over to Walmart and without lights and sirens going, because it wasn't a very emergent call initially. But dispatch kept the 9-1, kept the chaperone on the line and it became more and more emergent. The chaperones were following Melissa around until she got into the sporting goods section. And then when she did remove the hatchet from the packaging and then started being threatening and following customers around, our dispatchers kept the chaperone on the line and kind of gave me a play by play and what was going on. So when I heard that, I activated my emergency lights and sirens and started traveling to Walmart at a higher rate of speed. And Walmart was probably about a mile and a half away from the police department, so not that far away. And if you're familiar with Walmart, most of them are set up the same. You have an auto center entrance, which is kind of around the corner on the side of the building. You also have a general merchandise entrance, and then you have a grocery entrance. And when I pulled into the parking lot, initially I was going to go to the auto center because she was back in sporting goods. My hope that, you know, I would respond and go inside there, kind of keep her contained in the back of the store. So she would walk up towards the front of the store and kind of isolate her back in that sporting goods auto center area. But she started walking up towards the front of the store. So I pulled in the parking lot and there was a lot of people there and they just wouldn't get out of the way. remember thinking, well, you please move. There's an emergency in the store and everybody's kind of just looking at this police car, zipping into the parking lot with the lights and sirens. And I'm like, I probably said a few. ⁓ few choice words, you my squad cam probably picked that up. What I initially did was, yeah, I parked in front of the general merchandise entrance, it kind of blocked the door and turned my sirens off and had my lights, you know, going my red and blue lights continue to be, you know, activated because I was hoping if somebody in the parking lot was going to use that entrance, they'd think twice about doing that. You know, they'd see this police car there and think, Yeah, I might not want to go through that door. So I exited my squad. drew my weapon because I had no idea where she was. I knew she was walking towards the front of the store and I could have met her right inside the door. I didn't, but there was a man and a woman there and I asked them, where is she? Where is she? And they kind of pointed down towards, you know, a main intersection, main, two main aisles, the health and beauty aisle and the lawn and garden aisle. And I ran down there and I could see, see her, her back was to me. and I could see her chopping up a pallet display case of weed and feed. And I identified myself, gave her multiple verbal commands, and she turned and faced me. And that's when I realized she had a hatchet in her hand and she continued to walk towards me. And I gave her multiple verbal commands to stop, to drop the hatchet. She refused to listen to me. She continued to advance to me. And then I decided to shoot. I shot twice. ⁓ My first shot went in and out of her right leg. That round continued down the aisle. ⁓ Thank God nobody else was behind her because it continued to travel down that main aisle until it struck the lawn and garden door, the kick plate on the door. And then my second round actually shot her, know, kind of struck her center mass kind of by the sternum and then she fell to the ground. you know, I remember the shots were so loud being inside of a building, you know, without hearing protection. mean, a lot of us go target shooting. This is a whole different thing when you're inside a building and there's hundreds of people in the store. ⁓ But I know I did the right thing, but when I pulled the trigger, that totally changed, you know, it changed lives. Not only did it take Melissa's life, because eventually, you know, a few hours later, she died after surgery. They couldn't stop internal bleeding, but You know, there was about a dozen witnesses that saw the critical incident happen. There was people who heard the gunshots. There was actually a bank inside the Walmart and they actually called 911 saying they thought they heard a gunshot in the store. And then, you know, even people all the way over in the grocery aisle that maybe didn't even know what was going on and they heard two gunshots and, you know, everybody's affected by it. And I just, I remember the gunshots were so loud. It just seems so surreal. And I remember after I pulled the trigger and Melissa fell to the ground, I remember looking at the customers that were in the area and asking them, you know, please check yourself. Please check each other. I wanted to make sure that my rounds only struck Melissa and nobody else. And then I looked at one of the Walmart employees and I said, will you please get on the intercom? and see if there's a doctor or a nurse somewhere in the store and ask them to come over here and help. And there just happened to be a nurse in the light bulb aisle. And she's like, I'm a nurse, I'm a nurse. And which was interesting because she later said that she was in the light bulb aisle by herself carrying a box of light bulbs. And when I said drop it, drop it, I said it so loud that she actually dropped the box of light bulbs and then realized that, you know, she was the only one in the aisle and I wasn't talking to her. But everything just seems surreal. I knew what I had done. I know I did the right thing. But it just seems surreal. I didn't even, you I didn't think that Melissa was gonna die either. When she was on the ground and paramedics arrived, she was answering questions. She was talking, she talked with other officers and then you know, then the paramedics transported her to the hospital by ambulance. ⁓ But yeah, you know, I kind of live, work and play in that community and I shopped at Walmart all the time and I just never thought anything like that would happen there. speaker-0: Yeah, that that that's that sucks. And I mean, it sounds like you made the right call on all of it. You made sure after you did the you know, the shooting is you made sure no one else was injured. Only the subject was hurt. You actually tried to get the subject help in the end. So kudos to you on that one. That's you did a lot more than a lot of other officers would do. speaker-1: Thanks. speaker-0: You took a damn, you took a horrible situation and tried to make it as good as possible for everyone else in the surrounding area. And even as you said earlier, you parked your squad car in front of a door so others cannot go in there just in case it was going to be horrific or even worse. speaker-1: Right? speaker-0: So you made a lot of damn good decisions on that one. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean the you know the incident was dynamic and a lot of moving parts. You know a lot of people think when police officers are involved in a critical incident, especially a shooting, it's just kind of like you know pull your back your gun out bang bang and you put it back in the holster and you go back to work. I mean there's so much more involved and ⁓ you know Melissa did have a six year old daughter at the time. You know, I understand the totality of it all. You know, I ended up taking her life which I. No, I did the right thing, but it doesn't make it easier. know, her mom and dad will never be able to see her. Her daughter will never be able to see her again. Other family, friends, and not only that, I was affected by it. And my family and my daughters and even people who, you know, weren't directly involved, who were just and didn't witness it, just people at the store. Everybody is kind of affected one way or another. speaker-0: Yes, sir. That actually brings me to my next part actually is so what's the scene was cleared. You know everything's changed. What happened immediately after the incident? speaker-1: Well, it was, was, ⁓ you know, once I was cleared from Walmart, my corporal, which was actually my FTO field training officer when I started at the police department, he arrived and he kind of escorted me out of the store, which was great because I knew him, I trusted him. I knew that he cared about me and he was going to watch over me because, you know, like I said, everything was surreal. ⁓ And, you know, it was good to have somebody there that just kind of watch over me, make sure everything's okay. And he escorted me out of Walmart and we jumped in a squad car and almost immediately the media was there. I remember one of the reporters came up to the passenger side of his squad car and said something. I don't remember exactly what. I know I didn't respond. You know, I didn't answer any questions. But after that, we drove back to the police department and I was ready to tell everybody what I had done. I was ready to take a urine analysis. I was ready to take a drug test. everything. I just I knew I did the right thing and I wanted to tell people that but you know we get back to the police department I go into one of our conference rooms and that's when like the police department attorneys started showing up the professional police association attorneys show up other officers my chief he was away he had to return to the police department stuff like that and just kind of had a briefing just make sure I was okay and what you know discussed what the next steps would be and But once I was cleared at the police department, they said I could go home and you know, common protocol is for them to take your your weapon because that's the weapon that you use in the shooting. and they did that. I was in full uniform, full duty belt, you know, no duty weapon anymore because they took that. But they said, yep, you're clear to go. You can go home. So I was like, OK, I'll go home. And I walked out the back of the police department in uniform, no gun and jumped in my squad car. I did have a take home squad car. And like I said earlier, I lived. I lived in that community and I was about to drive home, but the first thing I thought of is I gotta call my mom and dad because my mom and dad lived three and a half, four hours away in Wisconsin, but I wanted to let them know what had happened so they wouldn't see it on the news or social media or get a text message or anything like that. And I called them and got them both on the telephone at the same time. And I said, I just wanted to let you know I shot somebody at work. I'm fine. I'm going home right now and you know sometime later my mom and I talked and she goes, you know, I didn't even recognize your voice. You're my you're my baby boy. I know you and you said that you were fine, but I could tell you weren't. I could tell you were in shock, but you said you were fine so there wasn't much you know your dad and I could do. We're not going to. We couldn't drive four hours up to see you that night, but. So after that conversation ended, I drove home and I don't remember the road I took home. I could probably tell you what I probably, how I probably drove home because I did it all the time, but I just don't remember. And the next thing I do remember is pulling up into my driveway and got out of my squad car, walked up. ⁓ walked up the steps to my front porch, walked in the front door, and the first thing I did was I knelt down next to my loveseat and I prayed to God that Melissa wouldn't die. I didn't think she was gonna die. She was talking and answering questions the last time I saw her. I guess it just never crossed my mind that she was gonna die. And sure, if you get shot like that, there's a possibility, but the last time I saw her, she was talking. She was answering questions. So I didn't... I really didn't think she was going to, but I prayed she wouldn't, because I don't want anybody to die, especially me shooting her. I didn't wake up hoping to go to work and doing that. So I prayed, and then after that, I went in my bedroom, took all my gear off, and sat at the foot of my bed. And even with all my gear off, my duty belt, my... boat-proof vest, my boots, everything off, I still felt so heavy. And once I kind of, I don't know, relaxed a little, maybe I ordered a large pizza, double bacon, double sausage, and a two liter of diet Coke, you know, to make it okay, to wash it all down, you know, because make it okay that he ate the whole pizza. And then I Then I turned on the news because I wanted to see what they were saying about me, what they were saying about the shooting. And, and I was told not to do that, but I'm thinking I'm turning on the news. I want, I just shot somebody. I want to see what's going on. And so I watched a little bit of the news and then I went to bed and I slept great. I, I didn't have any nightmares, any flashbacks. My sleep wasn't disturbed, nothing like that. I slept great. And I don't know if it's because of the adrenaline dump from you know, the critical incident. I'm not sure what it was, but I slept great. And then the next morning I woke up and it was Saturday and I did have the weekend off because I didn't have to meet with the Sheriff's Department investigators until Monday to start my part of, you know, the investigation into my shooting. So I woke up Saturday morning and I thought, you know, I'm going to try to do something normal today if that's even possible after you shoot somebody and I got my haircut. I tend to get my haircut every week at that time just because going to court, getting last minute subpoenas, I didn't want to look all jacked up for court or looking like I need a haircut or anything like that. So I always stayed on top of that and figured I'd go get my haircut and then go pick up my two daughters. And while I was walking out to my car in the driveway, my chief called me and it was a typical... conversation, hey, how's it going? I'm good. How are you? And ⁓ he asked me, when can you come in and see me today? And I said, well, I'm gonna go get my haircut, grab my kids, and then I'll come see you. And he goes, Adam, I didn't want to tell you this over the phone, but Melissa died. And I respect him for telling me over the phone. ⁓ He did exactly what I did when I called my mom and dad. My chief wanted me to know. Right away, so I wouldn't find out on the news or through social media or text message or anything like that. So After that after that conversation ended, I remember just sitting in my car thinking this Changes everything I not only did I shoot somebody I killed somebody so now what's gonna happen? I mean, it's it's a whole different thing now somebody's dead because I I killed somebody I you know, So I I did I went and got my hair cut I don't remember, I mean, briefly, I remember sitting in the chair, getting my hair cut. ⁓ The lady knew me so well that it was basically like, you know, same thing, yep, same thing. And then she would just cut my hair. And then I went to the police department, met with the chief and the chief told me he was going to release my police department photograph. And I was probably thinking a million things in my head, but. When he said that, I was thinking, I don't want that picture out there because I saw that as my fat picture. I had my uniform, it was kind of tight, the big old perky neck. And I'm like, man, if that gets out on the internet, it's going to be out there forever. And you can see it now and I'm fine with it. But ⁓ I even asked the chief, can you give me an hour to kind of doctor the thing up? And he's like, yeah, Adam, we're not going to do that. So that was kind of my frame of mind there. ⁓ among other things. And then I just, I don't know what I did that weekend. It was all a blur to me. I see a therapist now and we've talked about that weekend and I don't remember. The only thing I remember after is going to a church because I thought I needed to talk to a pastor. And after that, the whole weekend's a blur. ⁓ I didn't end up keeping my kids. ⁓ My ex-wife kept them for the weekend, but the whole weekend was just a blur. It's like it didn't even happen. speaker-0: Damn. Yeah, that's, a hard situation to go through. And as you said a minute ago, that was, that was awesome on your chief's part to, you know, check in on you and let you know that what's going on and you know, all that. ⁓ did you ever notice people were starting to treat you differently after this happened? speaker-1: Um, no, but I was, I was worried about that. I remember Monday morning when I met with the investigators, when I'm driving to the sheriff's department, for some reason, I thought there wasn't going to be any video of the incident, which doesn't really make much sense because Walmart has cameras everywhere. Um, I didn't have a body camera on me, but the, the second officer that responded and, and assisted me did. And I don't, I don't know. And when I was, waiting for investigators to get me and start the investigation. I remember one investigator saying, and he didn't say it like snarky or sarcastically or in a mean way. I think it's just the way I took it. But he said something like, ⁓ we have video, we have video. And I got really nervous because I started thinking, what if the video shows like the complete opposite of what I thought happened, what I remembered? Once we started watching the video and listening to the 911 call, it was exactly how I remember. mean, there was a lot of things ⁓ on video that I can see myself doing that I don't remember just because training took over and my brain protected me from the trauma. I don't know, I'm not a psychologist, but there's a lot of things that I'm like, yep, that's me doing what I was trained to do, but I don't remember doing that or this or the other thing. ⁓ you know, 30 day administrative leave. until I was cleared for the shooting. never worried about going back to work. I always knew, I knew I was, I wasn't worried I'm gonna get fired or I'm gonna get arrested or anything like that. yep, go ahead. speaker-0: I said you were in the clear. did the right thing. You protect your right protect everyone else in the store, you know and right? speaker-1: Yeah, and then, and then when I was, when I was cleared, went back to work and I remember I was in the break room at the police department and an officer was rinsing off his dishes and he's, he, you he said, Hey Adam, how's it going? And I'm like, yeah, I'm doing, doing all right. And he goes, really? I'm like, yeah, I'm just kind of worried. And he goes, what do you mean? I told him, I said, I'm worried that you guys are going to judge me. And he goes, ⁓ no, I mean, we know you Adam. We We know the kind of person you are. We know the kind of cop you are. We're not judging you. We know that you did the right thing. you know, once I went back on the road, there were other police officers that were supporting, know, supportive. And there was even complete strangers that would come up to me, recognizing me as the officer involved in the shooting and kind of, hey, aren't you the cop that shot that lady? Yeah, we... We support you. We were praying for you in church. We hope you're doing okay. And they would even give me hugs. And I'm thinking, I don't even know these people and they support me. I mean, this is great. ⁓ You know, social media can be pretty bad. mean, some of the, ⁓ some of the Facebook pirates, whatever you want to call them. I mean, they were putting their negative comments on there and you would read them and it just didn't make any sense. And I even got hate mail, ⁓ which was, which was pretty, challenging for me because I'm an emotional guy and and you know I read some of the hate mail and it just eats me right up so but ⁓ for the most part everybody was supportive and I actually have a piece of hate mail right here in front of me if you want me to read it to you. speaker-0: go ahead that I think honestly that's some bullshit people said you hate mail but that's you know speaker-1: Yeah, so this was this letter was mailed to me actually to the murderer cop. No, yeah, no return address, no signature. And it says hey to the murderer cop. What the hell is your big strong arm trained macho man bastard serving the community policemen doing shooting and murdering a 25 year old young lady in a Walmart store throw some socks at her. or a chair or a few pillows or a bicycle or some spray or a taser. You son of a bitch, murderous cop, I hope a drunk driver shoots you. Wow. That was just one piece of hate mail that I received. speaker-0: That's extremely graphic and disappointing that someone says that. speaker-1: Yeah. And it kind of reminds me, you know, if you look at the piece of hate mail, it kind of reminds me of like the old school way how people would write, like kidnapping letters, right? You know, how they would have little different lettering and stuff like that, because like the hay part would look like it was in a fat kind of a fat Sharpie marker. Some of the other writing looked like it was in like thin pen or it's just, it's ridiculous, but I guess somebody just wanted ⁓ to get there. Get my attention and let me know how they felt about it. speaker-0: That's one way to put it, or they would just want to be an asshole. speaker-1: Right? Yeah. speaker-0: So did anyone check on you throughout this whole event or were you kind of like in the quietness throughout? speaker-1: I kind of feel like when I was cleared and went back to work, it was like, if Adam needs something, he'll let us know. I mean, my chief was very supportive. ⁓ But the chief at the time of my shooting was very supportive. And he even told the media right away that he supported me. And I knew he wasn't bullshitting me because I would hear him defend me. support me when he didn't know I was there. I could be down the hall from his office and I'd hear him on the phone or I'd hear him talking to somebody and he'd be defending me and my shooting and why I did it and stuff like that. And I'm like, wow, my chief genuinely supports me. He's just not bullshitting. I mean, and it was great. It was great to know that. He actually had a press release to the media and I copy and pasted his comment. printed it out and put it in a frame and put it on my desk, you know, up until I was terminated from that department just to kind of, you know, if I was having a crappy day, I could look at it and know that my chief, my boss supported me. And ⁓ yeah, I mean, I started suffering in silence probably in the beginning during that 30 day administrative leave. And I know that people knew I was struggling. I I suffered. in silence and poorly coped from 2016 until 2000, you know, 2022, the January 2022. So I find it hard to believe that nobody knew. I think that maybe they didn't know how to approach me or what to say. So they just decided not to do anything at all, just kind of keep their distance. But, you know, I was still able to do my job. A year after I was promoted to detective. And I was getting awards and medals and state citations. And I had never been disciplined, suspended, anything like that. I was a good cop. So I was able to keep doing my job, even though on my days off, I was a drunk and I was really coping by other means. speaker-0: Yeah, and that actually bringing me to my next point that I have written here is the mental health of us as first responders is stigmatized. ⁓ And again, leadership adds another layer to it as well. ⁓ So you were being promoted. Excuse me. You're being promoted throughout as you were struggling as well. ⁓ Did that make you feel safe ⁓ at that time? mean, did you feel safe admitting that you were struggling to anybody? speaker-1: No, I really didn't. On the night of my Friday, kind of the first night off, I would have my poor coping strategies. And what I would do is poorly coping with alcohol, casual sex, and drugs. And what I mean by alcohol is I would make my own cocktails. I would pour a glass of wine, and I'd put allergy medicine, sleeping medicine, in. in the glass. And sometimes I would reach into the medicine cabinet and see if you know what was in there. One time my daughter's prescription cough medicine with codeine was in it so I kind of made my own cocktail. I regularly you know had a 750 milliliter bottle of vodka that I would drink in 30 minutes or less. I wouldn't make a drink I would just either drink it right from the bottle or you know put some ice cubes in a glass and drink it and pretty much black out. ⁓ and you know, another way that I would abuse alcohol is no matter where I went, even if it was a social event, as simple as going grocery shopping, grocery shopping, or picking up my kids to do something or meeting friends, I would stop by the local gas station, which was probably about a minute away from my house. And I would buy two or three of those, you know, double shots, small liquor bottles of fireball, cinnamon whiskey, or vodka. And I would drink them right in my car. And. right in the parking lot and before I would drive to my destination and I would throw the bottles in the backseat of my car, throw them out the window when I was driving to wherever I was heading. And I rationalized that it would take me, it would take the alcohol about 30 minutes to kick in. And then by then I'd be wherever I needed to be. And that's wrong. That's just complete bullshit, but that's what I would do. ⁓ But yeah, it's with casual sex, I would ⁓ meet women online on dating apps strictly for sex. was mutually agreed to have sex. And sometimes within 30 minutes or less, just like the alcohol, we'd be having sex. And ⁓ kind of my routine, what I would do is if I knew they were coming over to my house, I would I would have an energy drink, have a couple shots of liquor. And then I even bought condoms that would kind of be sensitized. ⁓ you know, the sex, the feeling of sex, so the sex will last longer. And I remember laying in bed with a woman one time and I'm thinking, Adam, you gotta stop this. This isn't working for you. You know, I stopped liking myself and I was just chasing that dopamine high. And even though I was stressed and worried and overwhelmed and like, man, what if I get her pregnant? What if I catch an STD? That still wasn't enough for me to stop. ⁓ Eventually it... it stopped years down the road because I had committed loving relationships, which was great. But for years I did that. And then drugs, ⁓ I tried marijuana for the first time in my life and a lot of people are like, come on Adam, that's no big deal, it's only pot. ⁓ But to me it was a big deal because like I said earlier, as far back as I can remember, I wanted to be an ERCAR man, a police officer. ⁓ everything, not to get in trouble, not to do anything illegal, to stay out of trouble. And I just didn't care. So I smoked marijuana before and I also did some marijuana gummies. And the majority of the time I was so drunk, don't even, I didn't even feel the effect of getting high. So, ⁓ but I didn't care. And, you know, another part of drugs is like prescription or over the counter abuse. You know, I could go to the dollar store and there were these pink colored allergy pills. And if I bought the right kind and took just the amount, I would get all feeling great, nice and high with a combination of alcohol and stuff. it just, those are my poor coping strategies for years. And they may have helped momentarily, but overall they didn't help. They only made things worse. They caused me more anxiety, more stress, more depression, and it wasn't helpful. speaker-0: Yeah, the sad thing is a lot of the people I know that have went through the same types of scenarios and response period, know, we always lean towards the easiest solutions that really aren't a solution. just a temporary bandaid that makes things worse. Just pretty much the same. speaker-1: Stop it. Right. Yeah, like a quick fix. mean, look at alcohol. You can go almost anywhere, especially in Wisconsin, and buy alcohol. you know, there's a, there's a grocery store. don't know if you have them by you, but a grocery store in Wisconsin called Aldi. And you could go in. Yeah, I could buy three bottles of wine for under 10 bucks. So I mean, hey, why not? You know, I mean, it was, it was a quick fix, but it didn't in the long run, it didn't only made things worse. speaker-0: Yeah, I live in Alabama. ⁓ I've worked here in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Louisiana is one of the states that I drove through and worked in and you could literally buy hard liquor in any gas station. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, yeah, here too. speaker-0: Yeah, I could go in and buy Jack Daniels. I'm like, wait, I can buy Jack from a gas station. How does this work? But okay. speaker-1: I know I visited when I was married, used to go to Ohio a lot and you could, it was like a drive through garage. You can drive right through the place and they'd give you alcohol. like, wait a second here. speaker-0: This is completely illegal, but hey, whatever. speaker-1: Yep. speaker-0: So this next part of this episode is for leaderships specifically addressed to supervisors, command staff, chiefs, sheriffs, administrators. Not the policy writers, not the consultants, the people who actually sit in command positions where something goes wrong. Adam, you just didn't experience this as an office, as just an anybody you experienced as an officer who had to deal with higher ups at the time. And yeah, you are a captain. are. you have actually helped mitigate other issues like this with other people. So when a deadly force incident happens, what do most command staffs get wrong in the days or weeks that follow? speaker-1: I think what I've seen and what I've experienced, I think a lot of them try to protect the reputation of the police department or the law enforcement agency right away, or the fire department or the rescue house or wherever you work. I just think command staff, they have to think, are you part of the problem or part of the solution? And the first thing they need to do is like what my chief did. Right away, he told the media that he supported me and that's... That's everything. know, a lot of times we turn on the news and you see a chief or you see a sheriff or you see higher, you know, management or command staff there. And they say, well, you know, we're going to be doing an investigation. And if, if we find out that something was wrong, we'll take appropriate action. Well, when you say that you're already putting the doubt in people's minds that this cop, this deputy, this trooper, this firefighter already did something wrong. You're already saying that, Hey, you know, But my chief automatically said, hey, I support him. I think Adam had thought he had no other choice. I support him. I mean, that's great. That's the biggest thing. And with my chief, I knew he wasn't bullshitting me. He was being genuine because I would hear him support me and defend me when he didn't know I was there. And that means everything. speaker-0: And that's something that I'm sorry. I think in that, that helps your mental, your mental health as well, because you're not sitting there second guessing what he's saying. You know, he's saying what he means and that he, he's not trying to throw you under the bus. He's trying to actually do the right thing by you, by your family and even by to the subjects family, you know, there, there's no, there's no, let's throw stones and. make them look bad type deal like you were saying. And that's where a lot of these departments, in my opinion, I've never dealt with the police side of things, but EMS, fire, that's where we seem to throw things in the way side is, okay, let's just say there's no guilt. But like you're saying, you're creating guilt by how you're phrasing things in the media. speaker-1: ⁓ absolutely. And then if your officer, your firefighter, your paramedic hear that, you know, maybe they, they don't realize that this is in their thought process, but maybe a little bit is kind of like, well, I thought I did the right thing. What is he talking about? initially I had no doubt in my mind that I did the right thing, but now I hear my boss saying, well, if you know, if there's any wrongdoing, we'll look into it. I mean, that's, that would cause me some worry and paranoia right away. speaker-0: 100 % that'll that would tear anybody down. speaker-1: Right, right, absolutely. So I mean, I think that that leadership need to immediately. Speak with that officer, that deputy, that trooper, that firefighter, that paramedic and let them know one-on-one, hey, I support you. Everything will be okay. We'll work together. We'll communicate. And then you have to do it. You can't just talk the talk. You gotta walk the walk. And some of the large agencies, I understand that some of their command staff may be so far removed from the patrol shift and stuff like that. speaker-0: None of us. speaker-1: It's so important because this doesn't, it can affect an officer or a first responders life in so many ways, the rest of their life, it can totally ruin them. And they could be in a, they could be in the roll call room with 20 other cops or the firehouse with 20 other firefighters and feel alone because they feel like everybody's against them, even though deep down they know they did the right thing. speaker-0: Yes, sir. And that actually is another question the guy right here is. So do agencies make legal protection or I'm sorry, do agencies mistake legal protection for emotional support? speaker-1: I think so. ⁓ I think maybe that they tend to believe that, we'll, you know, we have legal protection for our officers, we have attorneys, we have professionals that can get us through this, but the emotional support is what's important. speaker-0: Yes, sir. speaker-1: It's so important because. You know, over the years, including myself, I've experienced it myself. I've seen so many first responders be perceived as a liability to their agency. Even if they did the right thing, but if they start suffering, especially with mental health, it just seems like these first responders become a liability to their agency. And then, you know, the command staff is like, how do we move this person out? How do we get rid of them? because of reliability. And, you know, we kind of have to save face. We have to protect our department, our image, the reputation we have with the community. And if it's easier just to get rid of this person, this first responder, we're going to do that. And that's ridiculous. That's unacceptable. And I think, you know, as a leader, if you truly have a concern with a first responders, speaker-0: 100%. speaker-1: mental health and you need to sit down with them and have a one-to-one with them. However you do it, I don't know what the right way is to do it, but you have to have a one-to-one and say, we're concerned, we're still gonna work through this, you're still one of us, we're gonna do everything we can to work with you and get you through this, whatever that may be. But don't just start ghosting these first responders and then the next thing they know that they're getting walked out the door. ⁓ speaker-0: Because that's their biggest fear for admitting that they need help is if I say I'm not okay. ⁓ I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to lose my life, my lifestyle, my everything. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, absolutely. mean, as a, as a police officer and I've spoken with many first responders and you know, a first responder isn't going to reach out for help if they know they're going to lose their job, lose their house, lose their boat, lose their, their wife, their husband, their marriage, their relationship, if they're going to lose anything and us, unless they're absolutely certain that things are going to be okay, they're not going to reach out for help. They're going to try to fix it themselves. And that's what I did for years. figured, you know, hey, if I just keep going, everything will fall into place. Everything will be fine, which was ridiculous. I needed help, but I was going to keep going. I was going to keep going because usually things work themselves out. I don't know how long it's going to take, but it'll be fine. And that's, I I'm willing to do that rather to reach out and say, I need help. speaker-0: And that's where you came in and started the stop the threat, stop the stigma. You know, your advocacy challenges how agencies think and how everything should be done. So speaking of that is what does stop the threat, stop the stigma actually mean? speaker-1: Well, stop the threat, stop the stigma. know, as police officers, we're trained to stop the threat, but stop the threat is also stop the threat of your mental health taking over your life, taking over your future, taking over your job, your hopes, your dreams, your plans and your retirement. That's what stop the threat means. And stop the threat of mental health taking over. You know, it's okay to talk about your mental health. You're not alone. You don't have to suffer in silence. There's so many resources out there. And stop the stigma. It's pretty simple, pretty plain and simple. you know, I think in law enforcement, there's that stigma with mental health that, that you're perceived as a liability, you may be perceived as weak, unable to do the job, unfit for duty. If you reach out for help and I think that stigma will always be there one way or another. It's getting better. You know, like like you and I talking about it. That's great. ⁓ I think it will continue to get better because of technology because. You know somebody can listen to your podcast and the privacy of their own home in the privacy of their own squad car and their fire truck and their engine and all that stuff and nobody has to know, but they can still reach out and get help. I mean, you don't have to. tell the world your business like I do. It's so important to reach out for help because there's help out there and there's people want to help you and not just because they're getting paid for it, but because they genuinely care about you and may have even gone through it themselves. speaker-0: And that's it. Yes, sir. 100 % on that one. And like you said, that's the reason I created this podcast is I've seen a gap that we don't have anything like this for our fields of work and being able to talk to people like you who have went through it and having others hear stories to know that they're not alone is all I need. That's the reason for this podcast. speaker-1: Yeah, I think it's, I think it's great what you're doing because it's, it's important work. ⁓ you know, with stop the threat, stop the stigma. I just established that, ⁓ to promote, you know, law enforcement wellness, but any first responders really, and also it really doesn't matter what profession you're in or if you're unemployed. ⁓ everyone, everybody struggles with mental health one way or another or know somebody who, who does. And, ⁓ yeah, I think what you're doing with your podcast is great. speaker-0: So back to your ⁓ association, ⁓ where do departments fail their people the most after deadly force incidents that you've noticed after they reach out to you? speaker-1: I think communication. I think departments fail in communication. mean, I think they mean well and they want to support the officer and they want to be there for them. A lot of police departments, lot of agencies now they have employee assistant programs, they have mental health resources. Some even have their own counselor at their police department, which is great. ⁓ speaker-0: Communication. speaker-1: But the majority of police departments now are small agencies. They're not the NYPD, the LAPD, the Detroit PD, the large metropolitan police departments with unlimited budgets. I think communication is key. know that, I wanna say for that, for quite some time, people didn't reach out to me. I do believe that it was kind of like Adam's, You know, if Adam needs help, he'll ask for help. And I wasn't going to ask for help. mean, I was going to take care of everything myself. Everything was going to be fine, right? I mean, I don't need help, but I did. ⁓ Right. And, you know, even a simple text message saying like, hey, Adam, I love you. I care about you. How you doing? Do you need something? I'm here if you need me. And I would get those messages. speaker-0: That's where I'll... speaker-1: But I wouldn't respond, but I still knew somebody was there. mean, technology is great. Email, text messaging, messenger, all this social media stuff. It takes what, 10 seconds to reach out to somebody? So I think communication is key. That's so important. If you talk about stuff, you can work it out. If you don't, things just aren't gonna happen. speaker-0: And that's the truth is everyone needs to know that you're there for them. ⁓ you can't guess that they're like you said, that they're okay. and I've, I've noticed people that struggled, ⁓ and I've noticed people that didn't, that were struggling that I couldn't tell they struggled and went up taking their own lives. But you know, there, there's certain stigmas, I should say, like you were saying a minute ago that that's out there that we can see and it only takes 30 seconds to a minute to reach out to somebody make sure they're all right. speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. There's really no, there's really no excuse to not reach out to somebody, especially if, especially if they're your, your friend, your colleague. mean, come on, send a text. You ain't got to get all, you ain't got to get all lovey dovey and Hey, I love you. I care about you. You Hey Adam, how's it going? If you need anything, let me know. Please text me, call me anytime. I'm here for you. Something like that. That, that means a lot to somebody who's struggling. even if they tell you or not, it means a lot. speaker-0: Right. And that's something that I think a lot of people look for is the recognition or the support from the other person. And that's not what you want. That's not what's going to happen if someone's actually struggling. They're going to read your text. They're going to know it's there. And they'll reach out if they need something. And that brings me to my next segment. ⁓ So there are people listening right now who haven't said a word about what they're carrying. What do you want them to hear? speaker-1: I just want them to know that it's okay to talk about your mental health. You're not alone. Don't suffer in silence. There's so many people out there that are willing to help you, support you, get you through whatever you're going through. There's so many resources now on the internet and in our communities. And you don't have to get on a podcast and share your business with the world. You don't even have to reach out to somebody you know. I mean, you can get online and Google like what you're struggling with or Google resources in the area, but please reach out to somebody because if you don't, it's gonna eat you alive. And with the amount of alcohol I abused, there was a time that I put my duty weapon in my head a dozen times. And I did that when I was intoxicated. I took the magazine out. speaker-0: Yes, sir. speaker-1: you know, clear the chamber, got the round out of the chamber, and I put it to my, put my duty weapon to my head and pulled the trigger just because I wanted to hear that metallic click. And I know there's people out there that feel like they can't get through it. There's so many people out there that have gone through what you've gone through and can help you. Even if you don't understand what you're going through, say that, reach out to an urgent care, a hospital, and just say, you know what? I feel off. don't know what I'm going through. This just doesn't make any sense. I need help. Can you help me? And they'll work with you and try to figure it out. And you work together to get better. I mean, I see a therapist now. It works for me. I take medication now. I take 20 milligrams of Lexapro. I wake up every morning, go to the bathroom, pop a pill and keep going. That's because I finally put myself first and it's not. speaker-0: Yes, sir. speaker-1: easy. It's difficult. As a first responder, we always put everybody else first and we tend not to take care of ourselves. But please, you know, if you're if you're a first responder right now, you're good at what you do. You wouldn't be there if you weren't. And if you need help, please reach out for help. You can get better. It's possible. speaker-0: Yes, sir. And as you said, that's why I'm on 50 milligrams of pristique right now. So yeah, agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. No. ⁓ So earlier I asked before we started what you wanted to take away from the episode. I'm gonna ask again, has anything changed? Would you like them to know anything else before we end today? speaker-1: You know, you to stop the threat, stopthestigma.org, there's some resources there. And one of those resources is my cell phone number, my actual cell phone number, not a business phone number. You can call, you can text me, reach out, and I'll try to get your resources. Or if you just want to share your journey with me, do that. You're not alone. And my phone's always on and I'll do my best to get back to you as quick as I possibly can. But I mean that. mean, I've spoken with a lot of people and that was the biggest thing with me. Once I was cleared from my shooting and went back to work and started speaking with other officers who went through what I went through, that meant a lot because I was like, hey, he or she's just like me. They may have been in a different situation, but they get it. I didn't have to tell my story and then explain every bitten piece of the story. They just generally understood and that's... You know, that's that peer support. That's important. So, yeah, I mean, if you need somebody to talk to, you want to send me a message, feel free. I'm right at the end of, ⁓ I guess the end of your phone, I guess you would say. speaker-0: That's amazing that you actually put your personal information out there like that. That shows a lot of compassion and a lot of empathy as well. And like you said, stop the stigma. I'm sorry, I forgot the name of your. speaker-1: No, stop the threat, stop the stigma. That's okay. That's alright. speaker-0: And you are on Facebook as well. you know, everyone know that. Is there any other websites or resources that they should know to be able to get a hold of you or learn more about your program? speaker-1: No, those two will do it. I mean, if ⁓ you want to learn about stop the threat, stop the stigma, those will be good starting points. And then there's links in there too. And I just don't always talk about myself or share my own experience. I put other resources, other things on there for people to help people like information for dispatchers, information for firefighters, for correction officers. for police officers, for paramedics, for nurses, doctors, you name it. Cause we're all in the same boat, right? We all work together. We all experience the same type of calls. We may do different things in our jobs, but we're all going to the same calls. So why not talk about it together, work together? speaker-0: Yes, sir. And again, I think it's amazing what you're doing. There needs to be more. speaker-1: Thank you. speaker-0: So that's the end of it. Let me go ahead and figure out how to hit stop on this thing. Stop. Yes. If you think it's too heavy to say, say it anyway. It beats a eulogy. You don't have to apologize for surviving however you can. You're not the reason things are heavy. You're the reason they're still moving. Need support right now? Reach out to me. Reach out to somebody. Text or call 988 or visit 88lifeline.org. You're not alone. Not in this job. nothing this fight. Want to share your story or connect? Visit critical-run.com or message the Facebook page, Dispatched and Dysfunctional. We're building this for you, for them, for all of us.