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Jason Brett | Incoming 'Bitcoin' Regulation | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:10
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of
0:13
Simply Bitcoin IRL. The first time you guys are
0:17
seeing me today because I had to miss the the earlier shot to
0:20
miss. Simply pick one live, had an
0:22
interview which was really interesting.
0:24
Today, we have Jason Brett, he is in the thick of things in
0:28
terms of he is and he's in the middle of the whole regulatory
0:33
fight and I don't know what other word to describe.
0:36
I don't know how else to describe that because that's
0:39
really what it is. Is.
0:41
And, you know, if that hopefully Jason chimes in, maybe he has a
0:44
correction for me. But before we get the show
0:47
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today. Anyways I want to bring up Jason
1:17
Jason. Thank you so much for joining us
1:19
today man. I've been, we've been better
1:22
said, we've been trying to make this happen for a long time.
1:28
I'm glad that I'm glad that you're finally able to make it.
1:31
And I have so many questions that have been built up in my
1:34
hat and my head over months of trying to get you on the show.
1:38
So happy to have you man. Jason, could you hear me?
1:53
It's in, could hear me. Okay.
2:02
Jason, you're on stage man. Oh hey yeah, sorry, there's like
2:07
some miscommunication happy to have you man that way I've been
2:11
I've been trying to get you on the show for for a long time now
2:14
so I'm very happy. You're in the Imperial City,
2:18
you're in the thick of things. So I'm just going to start it
2:22
off right? You know right from their very
2:24
beginning. How has Regulators politicians
2:28
perspective on bitcoin? How have it?
2:30
How have, how has their perspective changed in the last
2:34
year? All the things that have
2:35
happened? Whether that's Celsius, whether
2:37
that's the FTX, blow up, all these things that are happening.
2:40
That's been my opinions just giving more and more ammunition
2:43
to bitcoin haters. Really.
2:46
So how has their mind set change?
2:49
I've been also hearing along the Grapevine that that now
2:53
regulation is inevitable because of what happened with FTX.
2:56
I don't know how useful or functional.
2:59
It's going to be because of the very nature of how Bitcoin
3:03
works, right? You know, you regulating the
3:04
United States companies just pick up and go to another
3:08
jurisdiction. So we're Regulators heads at
3:11
where their minds at and where they really feeling about the
3:14
whole ft x debacle. Well, thanks for having me and
3:19
things are like moving so fast. I'm sorry.
3:22
I was catching up on something else that came out today on the
3:24
hill, it just like a mile a minute.
3:28
So you know to back to the beginning of 2022 to be clear,
3:33
the White House did not or t wanted to do something about
3:39
crypto broadly not necessarily just Bitcoin but that's the way
3:42
they look at it they don't necessarily see the distinction
3:46
between the You basically the financial stability, oversight
3:50
Council, which is the Council of all the Regulators like Janet
3:53
Yellen, you know, treasury secretary Gary, Gensler from
3:56
SEC, all of those different agencies and the White House and
4:01
treasury, all decided that something needed to be done
4:04
about the space. And they realized it was a very
4:06
bullish Market. But there was a basic concept
4:11
that they decided which is that the tech tail should not Wag the
4:15
Dog. So, In other words, whatever the
4:19
technology is that's developed whether it's Bitcoin, defy,
4:22
whatever that might be that can't necessarily change what
4:27
the laws are that have to be enforced in this country.
4:30
And so the way regulators and legislators sort of started
4:34
thinking about it at the White House level.
4:37
And then introduce the sort of executive order to kind of study
4:41
the market place, which has a lot of, in a lot of influence,
4:45
not just over legislation. Also over how Bitcoin is going
4:48
to currently be regulated. Today was, you know, first, they
4:53
wanted to make sure that they could set monetary policy sound
4:57
familiar, right. You know, I'm sure the FED can
4:59
set monetary policy and sure they have a safety and soundness
5:03
and consumer protection over financial markets.
5:07
So that includes the new markets that are developing,
5:09
particularly is Bitcoin is traded more frequently.
5:12
And so those those are two key elements.
5:14
You know, setting monetary policy Financial, you know,
5:18
markets and consumer protection. And then the last one is a
5:22
listed assets, right? You know what might happen,
5:24
particularly with things like ransomware to be really clear
5:28
and to kind of make it clear for your listeners.
5:31
Bitcoin is regulated. So it isn't so much a question
5:33
of like, you know, are they going to start to regulate
5:36
Bitcoin? There's been Finn's and there's
5:39
been you know the Silk Road case fincen is put out you know the
5:42
issues of money transmission that's at the state level.
5:45
So You know, the cftc is already declared Bitcoin a commodity
5:50
even though it's not in law, it's already in force to be
5:52
other courts. The SEC is said Bitcoin isn't a
5:55
security. You know, the IRS could improve
5:58
its language and the taxation area both for Bitcoin miners,
6:01
not having them have to realize, it is immediate gain.
6:04
That's one thing that has been trying to be pushed through on
6:06
the hill. The other one is a less than 200
6:09
dollar spec Spence could be a de minimis transaction, where
6:13
people wouldn't have to pay taxes on it.
6:15
So there already is a lot of Sure to bitcoin and regulations.
6:19
A lot of this regulation, in my opinion that's coming out is
6:22
really for the rest of the market.
6:24
And so where I pay a lot of attention to this is the
6:27
concerns of what might be a negative effect on bitcoin with
6:30
my what might be currently happening.
6:32
But that's been kind of the way the administration roll things
6:35
out. At the beginning of the year,
6:37
people are still learning about what this whole Marketplace is
6:41
about. And you know, For Better or For
6:44
Worse, our friend that fpx and bank and free.
6:47
Spend so much time in the Imperial City with legislators
6:51
that he met with them three or four times, they got to know him
6:54
on a personal basis. The more they have now learned
6:56
through the revealing of the bankruptcy filings.
6:58
The more he's become Hayden reviled and a lot of what he was
7:02
pushing through that I can splaying, you know, little bit
7:05
later in the show. How that would directly affect
7:08
Bitcoin has kind of, you know, been put on pause a little bit.
7:11
There's a little bit of a pivot in a different direction right
7:13
now. But, you know, for right now,
7:15
like Again, shouldn't surprise anybody in the Bitcoin world,
7:19
you know, they still want to make sure the FED runs the show.
7:21
That's why they're thinking about running the cbc's, they
7:24
still, you know, want to make sure they regulate the markets
7:27
and consumer protection. Not really to do with Bitcoin,
7:29
but a lot to do obviously with FTX, what does touch on bitcoin
7:33
a little bit is really this issue of ransomware and
7:36
particularly all the countries that are concerned about
7:39
ransomware events. There is a recent discussion
7:42
from somebody in treasury here on the hill.
7:46
Who Talking about, you know, maybe not in the United States,
7:48
but in other countries like ransomware where Bitcoin is used
7:52
for payment, can get pretty serious, where it's just down a
7:54
hospital and they've attributed, you know, deaths to that.
7:57
So, like ransomware is very high on the agenda, are not saying
8:01
Bitcoin is the fault of it, but because it's part of that
8:03
equation, they're evaluating what that social problem might
8:06
need as far as regulations. Absolutely.
8:09
So you said a couple things that really the it said a couple
8:12
things that I literally want to take the conversation towards so
8:15
I guess I'm going to pick the thing.
8:16
That that I think interest me the most.
8:19
So the part that you said about how they want to remain in
8:23
control of the monetary policy and Ideal World, regulation,
8:29
would be able to do that. But we all know that with
8:33
Bitcoin that is severely diminished specifically, because
8:40
it's more so about individuals. And if individuals choose to opt
8:44
out, can't really regulate Bitcoin itself, the network,
8:48
what you can really regulated the on and off ramps, right?
8:51
You, they have tremendous amount of control over the on and off
8:53
ramps, but the actual Network itself, when someone's in the
8:57
Bitcoin Network can't really, you know, you can't really touch
9:02
them and Jason from my perspective.
9:05
Again, I covered more from Media angle.
9:08
I think that there's going to be an inevitable Clash because of
9:12
exactly what you just said, they're going to want to retain
9:15
that monetary policy. But if a good portion of the
9:19
country is opting out altogether, how's their reaction
9:25
going to be towards that you know and I'm sure the thought
9:29
like these are already things that have crossed their minds
9:32
for sure. So from your perspective, what
9:35
are your thoughts on that? You know, I think it's so
9:40
fascinating that we get a chance to talk about it because in a
9:45
sense, you know, there's that expression in this space like
9:48
this is an inevitable conversation, like, of course,
9:51
at some point. Bitcoin got big enough where it
9:54
caught the attention of our regulators and policymakers and
9:57
the media to say, we'll wait a minute, you know.
10:00
We don't necessarily want people opting out and, and very often
10:05
what opting Out means to you. And me means Thing, very
10:08
different to somebody in the treasury Department or to chair
10:12
Gensler at the SEC. What that means?
10:15
What genes are has described. He doesn't talk about Bitcoin.
10:17
He talks more about stable coins, is people are using
10:20
things, you know off. But you know, the typical Fiat
10:24
rails. That means that they're either a
10:26
drug dealer or they're terrorists or they're doing
10:29
something nefarious and that's a bad way to look at things.
10:32
And unfortunately our country's done that since like the 1980s,
10:36
right? Like with Kane traces on dollar
10:38
bills, you know, we've got freaked out about, you know what
10:41
cash meant. I mean, it was in the 70s and
10:44
80s, you know, you could be heavier, cash confiscated from
10:47
your briefcase by somebody and treasury.
10:49
If there was cocaine traced on your on your cash and you didn't
10:52
get that money back, you know, and then we had 2001 with a
10:55
terrorist. So everyone's looking at it from
10:57
the security angle, and it's a really dangerous place to go.
11:00
And it's a, you know, touching on the on and off ramps in the
11:04
on and off ramps, really is where they I want to touch, you
11:08
know, the kyc of Who's involved. But when we talk about setting
11:13
monetary policy, right? As, you know, like the monetary
11:17
policy known in the u.s. is based on, you know, the Fiat
11:20
system and the FED making these decisions for us.
11:23
You know? And and so these levers that
11:26
they pull to them, it's critical to them that they maintain that
11:30
capability, but that's our general do that.
11:33
That's how they, that's how they pay for themselves.
11:36
This is deficit, spending like that.
11:37
They need to be able to print money in order to be able to pay
11:42
for the government in the first place.
11:44
And that's why I think Jason like this is such a I think it
11:49
breaks like something here. There's going to be a clash.
11:52
I think it's inevitable I think as more people opt out because
11:56
Bitcoin just has better incentives, right.
11:58
It's a deflationary life versus an inflationary life where
12:01
you're purchasing, power distance decreases over time.
12:04
I think that that's going to be an actual topic of conversation
12:09
like that and I don't know if the administrative state is
12:14
going to be willing to swallow that pill.
12:17
That's a very, very big hard pill to swallow for them.
12:22
So what are your thoughts on that?
12:24
And again like you're in this unique perspective man, you are
12:27
in the belly of the Beast, you're in the Imperial City.
12:30
What is your perspective on that?
12:33
Yeah, I don't I don't think they get to that point of being able
12:40
to accept that people use other currency than the US dollar.
12:43
My personal opinion is what happens is, you see them?
12:47
Roll out a CB D c-- and I'll say it now is if it happens for five
12:51
years from now, it'll be the greatest shit coin of in the
12:55
world like Barnum Bailey Circus top-notch like nothing.
12:59
Like what Facebook was trying to do if you think about it, right?
13:01
Facebook didn't let crypto ads on there.
13:03
Platform. Then they try to introduce their
13:05
own currency and the US government came in and 2019 and
13:08
stuff. Facebook said no, wait a minute.
13:09
We get to print the money. So I think they're going to look
13:11
to the digital platform and try to like you are drops and get
13:15
people to buy in to using CBC as opposed to bitcoin.
13:19
It doesn't make Bitcoin go away my opinion.
13:22
That makes it an asset and even a more valuable asset.
13:24
Because I think what people ultimately have to realize is
13:27
you're going to have to maybe take a step back and recognize
13:31
that we're at a pivot point in terms of what money.
13:33
Is and what it's all about and realize that Bitcoin there very
13:37
well might be a Bitcoin standard, it has to be accepted.
13:39
Now, are they going to be here? Asking me like I'm in, you know,
13:42
the belly of the Beast. I mean there's there's tons of
13:45
swamp creatures around there and I like to think of myself more
13:47
as an orange, you know, good guy in the picture of things.
13:50
But like, there is an immense apparatus.
13:54
As you say, it depends on and it isn't just the monetary policy,
13:58
right? It's the sanctions, you know,
14:01
it's using the US dollars for foreign policy goals.
14:03
As with sanctions. So you know, in their people's
14:06
minds, that means that us, you know, people US soldiers don't
14:09
have to go die. And course, you know, there's a
14:11
lot tied to the u.s. dollar. I mean the hundred dollar bill
14:14
is still the most used paper currency around the world
14:18
anywhere, you know. So it's kind of like it makes me
14:22
think a lot. And I thought about this before
14:23
like with Great Britain, like with Great Britain, be able to
14:26
figure out or which they didn't write that, you know, they
14:29
couldn't necessarily rely on their Royal Navy anymore as the
14:31
world change. They sort of lost themselves as
14:33
Power over the world. And I think, I think the u.s. is
14:36
risk of doing that. When it comes to this specific
14:38
subject. I don't, you know, I'll get out,
14:40
I'll give you one other examples.
14:41
Why? I don't think they get there is,
14:44
there's a very interesting, people can look it up, your
14:46
audience, can look it up on missed.
14:47
So miss National Institute of Science and standards and
14:51
Technology nist actually are like the computer scientists and
14:54
the government. They actually created a fork
14:57
Bitcoin. You can look at it where they
14:59
were experimenting to see how there might be admin control.
15:03
Is it wouldn't be perfect like the way Bitcoin is, but it would
15:06
be using the model of Bitcoin to help run the Federal Reserve and
15:09
make sure that different people had different votes over
15:12
monetary policy, which I thought was a pretty neat attempt at it.
15:15
But a couple years ago, the program essentially got shutdown
15:19
and the Federal Reserve just stepped in and now they're just
15:21
been focused on cbc's, so he's fascinating because The
15:26
Gatekeepers, the intermediaries are trying to reason and trying
15:32
to come up With the solution to a non-problem just to justify
15:37
their existence and it's fascinating watching them.
15:40
Do they like going through this this process?
15:44
And I really think that they really believe that they built
15:47
themselves. Such an impenetrable mow that I
15:50
don't think they could have ever have conceived this happening.
15:54
And there's so many people in positions of power and people
15:58
that have been in government, their entire lives and employed
16:01
that, you know, It was always the foreign enemy they could
16:05
have never met. They could I don't think they
16:07
could have ever of realized that.
16:09
It's that it's something like Bitcoin.
16:11
It's just the centralized pure pure, you know, currency that
16:15
they can just they can't make it go away and they're going to
16:19
have to compete with its incentives.
16:21
Are they going to be able to match them?
16:22
I don't think so. I think they're always going to
16:24
want to be base and they're always going to want to control
16:26
and if they don't give up those things then what incentive do
16:29
people have? And I think that this is going
16:31
to be more apparent and In countries where they don't have
16:35
a good alternative to bitcoin. All right, here, we kind of have
16:38
a relatively stable fiat currency, the rails, make it
16:41
extremely comfortable to use, right?
16:44
You can play mental gymnastics as to why you're going to
16:47
continue using it, right? So I want to talk about the US
16:52
Treasury specifically, the office of foreign assets
16:54
control, Tremendous tremendously powerful tool for the u.s.
17:01
government getting to dictate with.
17:03
Basically what countries are entitled to use money, what
17:06
countries are not entitled to use money or sorry it.
17:08
Specifically the US dollar what individuals are entitled to use
17:12
the US dollar or basically allowed to transact with the the
17:15
US Financial system. Now, what's really interesting
17:18
is that that same office was used to for the first time in
17:24
history, Place sanctions, not an individual or Country bought an
17:28
open source technology, which led aetherium because you know
17:33
it's a mistake. It's centralized that led
17:35
etherium. The vast majority of etherium
17:37
validators today are actively censoring for the office of
17:41
foreign assets control and it all they needed to do is release
17:45
a blog post. I think that was an insane move
17:48
by them. It was extremely well thought
17:50
out. They knew that was going to
17:52
happen. I'm positive.
17:56
What they need when they did. Move.
17:58
They were trying to set a precedent because if they're
18:01
able to sanction open source software, what is bitcoin, open
18:05
source software, and I think that's inevitable, it's going
18:09
there, it's, you know, and then you sell Iran and and Russia
18:13
announced that they're going to use Bitcoin to facilitate
18:16
International payments, right? So as we all know where the
18:19
movies going. So what are your thoughts on
18:22
that? I know that BP, I had a
18:24
statement in regards to that stuff.
18:27
So what are your thoughts on that Jason?
18:28
What are your thoughts on the US Treasury specifically?
18:31
The ofac sanctioning open source software and where is it going?
18:37
Yeah, so yeah. Bitcoin policy Institute did
18:41
come out with a statement and I think that the main concern here
18:47
is this is not a person. It's not a corporation, ofac is
18:52
very tricky, its strict liability.
18:54
You know, just this last week cracking that to settle with.
18:57
Oh, So basically, even if something happens, like, if
19:00
something happened on your show on simply Bitcoin that you like
19:04
didn't really have any control over, you'd still be fully
19:08
liable. Like there's no getting around
19:10
that. So it's a very strict process
19:13
and it's done in a way where it's supposed to be individuals
19:18
or companies. So they've treasury is opened up
19:21
a bit of a Pandora's Box and you do have some people talking
19:26
about Out, you know, how can this be legitimate?
19:29
People are even talking about maybe you know, suing.
19:31
In fact I think one organization is suing, you know, treasury
19:34
over this. Because if it's a smart
19:37
contract, right and I use it, or I get paid through it, you know,
19:42
that's or or my wallet gets dusted, right?
19:44
If I were using aetherium, like that's not really something I
19:47
did, but then I broke in sanctions and this came up like
19:51
three, four years ago, 2018 when Venezuela came out with the
19:55
petrol and You know, Senator Menendez from New Jersey put out
20:00
this you know, this follow-up to Trump's vo.
20:03
That said you know, even if you use the petrol and you don't
20:07
mean to use it, like it happened to be on a, on an exchange, in
20:10
your trading, it, you're breaking sanctions.
20:13
So the real question is, it never used to be like a whole of
20:17
the United States approach? Like, are we really asking every
20:20
citizen to not use certain currency or use certain tools,
20:24
and shouldn't we be entitled to those tools?
20:26
That's The thing, right? We need to be able to be able to
20:29
be peer-to-peer. There's no reason just like I
20:31
should have privacy with my cash.
20:33
That doesn't exist somewhere in the digital world and you do
20:36
have good Representatives on the hill like Congressman Tom emmer
20:38
that are fighting for that preserving the peer-to-peer
20:41
private ability to use money money.
20:44
Shouldn't be a surveillance tool.
20:45
That's what they do in China. It shouldn't be what they do
20:47
here. And so the problem though, our
20:51
what happened, really with that treasury sanction is sometimes
20:55
the White House gets involved and there was Evidence clear
20:58
evidence that the, you know, North Korea was using it.
21:01
So I don't know what the answer is, right.
21:04
If North Korea is using it and they feel like they have to shut
21:06
it down because they might be developing a nuclear weapon.
21:09
That that Jason. That's the boogeyman.
21:11
We all know. That's the boogeyman.
21:13
Okay. They needed that excuse so.
21:15
Very convenient. Excuse.
21:17
Right. But it is it really does.
21:19
It really serve as a justification to Bar American
21:23
citizens from using open source technology or open source
21:26
software? No, it doesn't.
21:28
And and that's what I wanted. That's what I was saying.
21:30
We're saying it's the white house.
21:32
So just to be clear, like, it's supposed to be treasury's.
21:35
Call the treasury usually makes these calls, but a lot of the
21:39
discussion, you know, behind the scenes, made it clear that the
21:42
White House sometimes will step in and tell ofat to sanction.
21:46
So the White House stepped in, in this, it's pretty evident,
21:49
they stepped in and they said, sanctioned tornado cash, and who
21:53
knows what the Dynamics are that meeting, but there were probably
21:56
people that pushed back. The seems like it's a bit of
21:58
over each other people that maybe are innocent using the
22:01
platform. But sometimes, as you say, like
22:04
whether it's the boogeyman or whatever you want to call it,
22:07
there's this assertion of power and an example that had to be
22:11
set. And I think when you go back to
22:14
the summer of this last year, a lot of The Regulators regarding
22:19
crypto, you know, decided. Hey there's a lot of laws on the
22:22
books but we're not really enforcing it.
22:24
And so, what I think happened was they said well there, Are
22:27
all these laws but we have to actually start enforcing it to
22:30
show people kind of we mean business and this is what the
22:32
laws are and what they're doing is they're breaking things like
22:35
with tornado cash. You know, there's there's other
22:39
examples where The Regulators are literally breaking things
22:43
because they're under so much pressure to just bring
22:45
enforcement actions because the White House is trying to show.
22:48
Hey, we don't need new laws to cover.
22:50
All this, it's all there. And this is our power and this
22:53
is our Authority. So I guess it's It's a little
22:58
bit of Empire Strikes Back, right?
23:00
I mean, this is like they're hitting the technology hard that
23:03
you know, it's making it clear, it's hard to know if you're an
23:05
open source developer or even if you're working on, you know,
23:09
lightning or whatever that might be, you know, what your
23:12
liability is. And ofac is one of the most
23:15
dangerous things in terms of how strict the liability is what
23:19
I've been trying to do and others in the space.
23:20
Have been trying to do is reach out to ofac and Treasury and
23:24
have conversations with them to help with education.
23:27
And help them to better understand and equip them.
23:29
You know what? The right answers are in the
23:31
future recognize sometimes decisions.
23:33
They might actually be backfiring.
23:36
For example, I'm sure you remember the issue with a bit
23:38
River, you know again. So that was a big backfire
23:43
because they you know basically cut all these mining machines
23:46
off in Russia. Basically turn them over to the
23:48
Russian military so like hosted mining.
23:51
These are all things that it's just going to require a lot of a
23:55
lot of Education. And a lot of help from you know
23:59
we need more people who are bitcoiners to be an office to
24:01
help you know as well house. Absolutely.
24:07
And it really comes down to that especially in the regulatory
24:10
front. It is it's going to require a
24:12
strong Grassroots movement in the United States.
24:16
Basically a race for adoption individuals using Bitcoin for
24:21
there to be enough political momentum to stop this like this
24:26
inevitable. Clash because there will be a
24:28
clash. Now, could you talk to me a
24:31
little bit about the mindset of these Regulators?
24:33
Because I know a lot of people watching and they watch simply
24:35
Bitcoin. It's like you think that these
24:36
people are demonic. Okay.
24:38
I don't think that, I think that they, you know, the really
24:41
famous quote, right? The road to hell is paved with
24:44
good intentions. I think these people genuinely
24:48
believe they're doing the right thing so what is the mindset of
24:52
that? And also wouldn't you say that's
24:54
a little bit disconnected from reality, right?
24:56
Because how we we've been sold on sanctions the American public
25:00
it's for regime, change it, punishes whatever, but if you
25:03
look at it historically whether it's Venezuela Cuba, North
25:06
Korea. They don't do anything.
25:09
Those regimes, don't go away. In fact, they bunker down and
25:14
they don't let go. So, in a way we've kind of been
25:18
sold something that's not true. Why haven't Regulators open
25:23
their eyes to? This is this just another case
25:25
of absolute power corrupts. Absolutely Well, yeah, that's
25:30
uh, that's a hard part that last part of your question because a
25:37
lot of the folks in fincen and ofac and those areas, you know,
25:43
they're given lots of responsibilities right Beyond
25:46
just this one area and I think there's this commitment to like
25:50
kind of the old Playbook of how sanctions used to be.
25:54
And I think it goes to your point earlier about recognizing
25:57
that Bitcoin. Is this new technology?
26:00
And what they need to do is, is understand the way that how this
26:05
technology works. Like to me, I remember when
26:09
Virgil Bellini who is, you know, the ethereum foundation went to
26:11
North Korea and was teaching cryptocurrency and blockchain to
26:15
that regime. And then is, is now I think
26:17
going to be five years in jail and then probably not be able to
26:20
be involved much and, you know, and he, you know, he was a good
26:23
programmer and he but like that was really like trying to set
26:27
the example of what of Not teaching open source, software
26:30
to a country like North Korea, like they're going to learn it
26:33
anyway. And so I think that what, one of
26:37
the things that we have to do is try to understand that like they
26:41
are used to certain things, they're used to certain
26:43
playbooks and it's a matter of if it's sort of like what the
26:47
country had to go through and understanding after 9/11,
26:50
there's like a new enemy. Think they have to understand
26:52
there's a new form of money in town and it's called Bitcoin
26:54
regarding like The Regulators like some of it.
26:58
Some of it is just They're told right, some of them what they're
27:01
told by either than competitors to Bitcoin in the space.
27:04
So for example, the the cftc chair, Rawson denim, that
27:08
everyone's going to be watching tomorrow because there's a
27:10
hearing about FTX where he's testifying.
27:13
He's the chair of the cftc. I mean he has openly said, he
27:17
said he's proud of the people in the industry moving to proof of
27:21
stake and he thinks that we need to move, you know, he he doesn't
27:26
favor Bitcoin and the cftc is the regulator Of Bitcoin
27:30
basically. And he wants to see more
27:33
environmentally conscious as he describes it, you know, proof of
27:36
stake in other types of coins to take over.
27:39
I mean he said that he's like literally playing favorites.
27:41
So that's an example of like where he's sort of taken the
27:45
climate agenda and also what he's heard about other, you
27:48
know, consensus mechanisms and maybe in taken it too far.
27:52
Gary Gensler actually to me, I know there's someone who's mad
27:55
about the FTX thing. And I understand that I will say
27:58
he did recognize what A coin is, he's recognized, it belongs in
28:01
the cftc and as not question whether it should be a security
28:06
or not. So in spite of a lot of what I
28:09
will admit are some shortcomings because his approach is just
28:12
taking forever. It's taking too long.
28:14
He's trying to get all the exchanges to come in and
28:16
register and with a see at the SEC, they're not going to come
28:20
in and that this long drag-out fight that literally started
28:23
August of last year is still going on.
28:26
It's trench warfare probably won't figure itself out, so,
28:29
2023 2024. And during all that time, you
28:34
know, you had FTX fall apart on his watch but he did recognize
28:40
what Bitcoin is like, see someone saying he doesn't
28:42
understand Bitcoin, you know, the cftc, gipe, I don't think it
28:45
does but I think Gensler does, you know?
28:47
And I think understands enough to know, hey, this isn't a
28:50
security, it belongs to the cftc, it's a commodity.
28:54
And as he said, it's the only real invention he's seen in the
28:57
space. You know, everything else to
28:59
him. It's up in the air if it's a
29:00
security or not. Yeah, so so interesting Jason
29:08
clearly, you know, they want to hold on to that control.
29:13
You can justify it as to, they believe that they're doing
29:16
something they believe that with that control they'll do better
29:19
than what Bitcoin can provide. I think bitcoiners believe the
29:23
human element is the problem. Right?
29:25
The human element humans being able to manipulate the monetary
29:29
Policy is the issue, that's the reason we got here.
29:33
So I think that there is going to be an inevitable clash and I
29:36
think that their last hoorah is Central Bank, digital currency.
29:41
So I want to ask you, how popular is this over there in?
29:46
D.c. how, you know, are we seeing is it?
29:50
And not only, you know, is it not only the executive branch or
29:53
we also seeing members of Congress?
29:55
Are they excited about it? I know that there's been some
29:59
Members of Congress that have been fighting back and that have
30:01
been calling out, you know, the, the downfalls of see of Central
30:06
Bank, digital currencies. And I'm not hope, I'm not
30:11
hopeful. I really do believe that the US
30:14
will go the way of China and try these cbc's, because I don't
30:18
think specifically US government is willing to give up that power
30:24
because that's how they pay for themselves.
30:25
And they get a tremendous amount of control also from that and
30:29
not only In the u.s. not only over individuals in the US but
30:32
also other countries, right? So what are your thoughts on
30:36
that? So Senator Tim Scott who's
30:43
likely going to end up being the chair of the Senate Banking
30:46
Committee. And it's been conversation with
30:48
his office about a year ago where it's funny.
30:51
They really, I wouldn't say the it's excited, but they're all
30:55
talking about Cbc's because it's been something that was part of
31:00
the executive order from the Biden Administration that said
31:04
they were going to look into legislation whether the FED
31:06
needed legislation. So they could actually produce a
31:09
CBC and ultimately Congress is the one that has power to coin
31:12
money. So that would be something that
31:14
they would ultimately probably legislate over.
31:17
So that's why they've been talking about a lot and they've
31:19
heard a lot about it but I'm encouraged when I'm going back
31:22
to Senator Scott who, by the way is like talked about him as
31:25
maybe being a presidential candidate.
31:27
One day, but when he takes over his chair, he's very, he talked,
31:30
he's been talking to his constituents about it and the
31:33
good news is, he's heard and he has feelings are a lot of his
31:36
constituents are worried about the Privacy element.
31:39
Like, and these are people that don't even necessarily use
31:40
Bitcoin. But they're like, I don't want
31:42
the government on my phone. I don't have government money
31:44
like that, like, no way, don't thank you.
31:47
So, there's a lot of recognition as to the Privacy element of it.
31:51
The question is going to be is that overcome the main screen
31:55
establishment? That's probably going to To sort
31:58
of force itself to create this, you know, keep the power
32:02
squarely in the hands of sort of the u.s.
32:04
Fiat dollar and since the treasury has sort of wants to
32:09
protect it, my belief has been, will still see a development of
32:12
a CBC over the next two years primarily between set up,
32:15
secretary, Janet Yellen, right? And the treasury side because
32:18
she used to be at the Fed. So she knows what needs to
32:20
happen from a coordinating standpoint with fed Fed chair
32:24
Powell. I think you'll see Powell and
32:26
yelling, And work together. They've in as much said, they
32:30
believe that if they can introduce the CBD see that the
32:32
rest of crypto would go away. So and it's actually interesting
32:38
that you're saying that because that part of that executive
32:42
order and honestly I Jason I think this is the tell, I think
32:46
this is why I believe they're scared of this thing on a
32:49
fundamental level because the treasure released a report, the
32:53
name of the report called the future of money, that was the
32:55
name of the report. The future of money, and that
32:58
entire report. Only stable coins and payment
33:01
platforms were mentioned. Bitcoin was not mentioned and
33:05
then you have to think about. It's like so the thing that
33:09
started and incentivize them to start cvtc's in the first place,
33:13
is not mentioned the entire report and then you have to ask
33:17
yourself. Like why is that?
33:18
Well, if they mention Bitcoin, then they highlight the reason
33:22
as to why people are choosing an alternative in the from the
33:25
first place which is monetary debasement inflation, right?
33:29
And They're in, in my perspective, they're doing
33:32
everything in their power to avoid that conversation.
33:36
They do not want to have that conversation, they want to keep
33:40
on, they want to keep that privilege, right?
33:43
Of being able to issue money for free that everybody else has to
33:46
work for and not to mention all the terrible effects of
33:51
inflation, which really affect the lower middle class has the
33:55
most. And it's not, it's never talked
33:58
about, it's always about Payment of efficiencies making payments
34:02
better making money faster and it's like specifically the US
34:06
like you have PayPal. You have venmo, you have all
34:08
these great platforms. They do that already.
34:11
Why is this necessary? And then you know you get to the
34:15
conclusion, right? So what are your thoughts on
34:18
that? Yeah I think the FED realizes
34:23
there's a very Antiquated payment system and that they've
34:26
been trying to do this thing called fed now or faster
34:29
payments. We're be 24/7 365.
34:32
We'll see if they get there that you know, next year, the year
34:34
after. But yeah, it's right, it's very
34:36
interesting, right? It's the future of money and
34:38
payments and I think you're you've hit upon it this this
34:41
notion of they want to they see it as a payments platform.
34:47
They don't see it as a savings element.
34:50
The way you do a Bitcoin. In other words, if you have CBD,
34:53
see they're always could be how do you impact the lower bound?
34:57
Right. How do you make sure even if
34:58
we're in a - in Straight territory.
35:00
Well, what you could you do? I mean, we're talking about,
35:03
literally prodding the person's digital wallet if they have,
35:05
like, $200 worth of see bdcs and say, hey, we're going to start
35:09
taking two CBDs a month out of your wallet if you don't spend
35:13
it. So it's this culture of list,
35:15
consumerism of spending, of as you've explained sort of the
35:19
way, the infrastructure is with the printing of money and it's
35:23
it doesn't incentivize our culture to save and it's really
35:25
scary. So, you know, Bitcoin is kind of
35:28
counterculture to that. At and it's funny to that,
35:31
that's like the revolution of our time which is actually,
35:35
we're just asking to save money and be able to earn the money we
35:37
save and not have it be debased. So, I think that they're, I
35:42
don't, I don't think what you're saying and because I know we
35:48
always talk about it because we're in the space so much, but
35:51
I don't think they see it. Like people are opting out by
35:54
choosing Bitcoin, see, I don't even think they're there.
35:57
In fact, you should be coming with me to talk to people.
35:59
When treasury because like they don't see it as like, oh people
36:03
are opting out by going to bitcoin.
36:04
That's actually a really good thing that I need to start
36:06
explaining better to them. Is people are opting out because
36:09
they're so sick of the current Financial system, they see it
36:12
more as well. People are just using Bitcoin to
36:14
avoid paying taxes or whatever. It's very unfair, what they've
36:17
done to kind of keep Bitcoin in a corner and that's a joke for
36:22
anyone with like dirty dancing. Like you know, no one keeps baby
36:25
in a corner. No one keeps Bitcoin at the
36:27
corner but they really have limited the this 200 dollar like
36:30
or the excuse me, that it's all taxable.
36:33
So you know, he spends, six bucks, a Bitcoin on coffee you
36:35
and I are encouraged to do that in business because we have to
36:38
start checking what the tax consequences are of that.
36:41
I mean and that's and the IRS is within the Department of
36:43
Treasury. So in other words, you know,
36:46
Bitcoin, they're never going to acknowledge it as on equal
36:49
footing even close to being equal footing with the US dollar
36:52
because the US Treasury, their brand name their logo.
36:54
It's like asking Apple not to make iPhones anymore, you know,
36:57
they're going to make US Dollars, they're going to
36:59
protect They're going to protect it and digital world and they're
37:02
going to make sure everything else doesn't really have a
37:04
chance and that's kind of what they've done.
37:05
They haven't people talk about. That's I think the most
37:08
frustrating thing is when I hear like well we tried Bitcoin it
37:11
really didn't work. No no you haven't tried Bitcoin
37:14
yet because you haven't really allowed it to flourish in our,
37:17
you know economy. So yeah.
37:19
So is it, you know? So is it really?
37:22
And and then this all kind of goes back to just very basic
37:26
fundamental things. Is it really a Meant by the
37:30
people for the people, or is it a government by the government
37:33
for the government? Because that's really what I'm
37:37
seeing here. They're not really acting on the
37:40
best interest of the American people.
37:43
What I see them doing is they're acting in their own best
37:46
interest to keep on. Keep keep a hold on of of that
37:52
privilege. Like they want to keep on, they
37:54
want to hold on to that and they're justifying their head.
37:57
I was like why? That is a good thing.
38:00
So what do you what are your thought?
38:02
It? Like I would have I would be so
38:05
disillusioned if our you Jason. So I commend you man for for
38:09
keeping up the battle. Yeah, well, I mean thank you but
38:16
I think that the problem that exists right now is I don't know
38:23
that there is there's been a lot of history of people using their
38:30
own Community money, and, you know, doing things on their own
38:34
outside of, you know, whatever the government offers for them.
38:37
And I think we have to make it clear that people have to have a
38:39
choice to do it. One of the Things I did earlier
38:44
this year was I held Texas with develop some legislation.
38:48
That's more of a kind of a list of Bitcoin her rights and I did
38:51
it, you know, through be Pi where you know Bitcoin miner
38:56
should have rights within Texas, you know to mine Bitcoin people
38:58
should be allowed to hold it. Use it as money right to privacy
39:02
over how they use their Bitcoin. And I think that's that's
39:05
something it might be a bridge too far.
39:08
But not in my estimation, they're going to at some point
39:11
come Our peoples on hosted wallets, they're going to try to
39:15
stop people from using Bitcoin, very similar what happened with
39:18
gold and I think that's the only answer to that as far as I'm
39:22
concerned, is that we get some kind of amendment in the
39:24
Constitution that is a Bitcoin amendment that essentially
39:28
defends the right of people's right to choose to use Bitcoin,
39:32
to hold it in self custody. And if we don't get that kind of
39:36
protection, that my fear is that, we'll see it at some
39:38
point. The powers-that-be come in and
39:41
kind of eliminate it. It is the most amazing thing
39:44
like you said, is this what's good for the government versus
39:46
what's good for the people most shocking thing is when they
39:49
started talking about all this digital currency stuff in the
39:51
banks were thinking about adopting it.
39:52
Like they're saying, well this is really good for consumers but
39:56
then even the American Bankers Association said, well, yeah, it
39:59
might be good for the bank customers, but is it good for
40:01
the banks? That's a question.
40:02
We really need to be asking is it good for the banks?
40:05
Like not like it wasn't good enough.
40:07
If the customers might be really happy with something like
40:09
custody Bitcoin, or whatever, but it wasn't good for the
40:12
banks. We're not doing it.
40:13
So it's an amazing culture we've developed.
40:17
We're sort of people feel very entitled and entrenched at the
40:20
top and it's something that I don't I just like very much so
40:25
so Jason will you said was fascinating and I know opt he's
40:29
hearing this in the back because I I've come to that same
40:33
conclusion or it's like if this does not become a political
40:37
movement in the United States and a Sofia.
40:40
And I don't think people understand how difficult V.
40:43
It is to actually effectuate change.
40:45
Like it is it on a political level is one of the most
40:47
difficult things to hand-to-hand?
40:52
And I agree, I think it's inevitable that they try to.
40:59
They're going to try to stem the flow, right, whether that's
41:02
stem, the flow on the on and off ramps, whether that's, you know,
41:06
Banning your right to self custody, whether it's just very
41:09
basic things. I think that they're just going
41:12
to attack that because those are all really you know you download
41:16
the majority of your mobile wallets.
41:17
If you have an iPhone it comes from the app store that's a very
41:20
easy switch for governments. And I think that those are all
41:25
things that they're going to exploit, I think it's
41:26
inevitable. Unless there's enough people
41:30
that are holding onto Bitcoin in the u.s. is in most individuals.
41:34
And they say, wait a second, that's not in my best economic
41:38
interest. I don't care what you have to
41:40
say. I'm not, I'm not going to allow
41:42
that, right? And the question is that
41:45
happened fast enough like that? That's the that's the big
41:48
question, right? So, do you see it?
41:51
Do you Do you foresee them 610 toing this, right?
41:55
The same thing that the our did with gold.
41:57
Made it illegal, you know, do you foresee that happening?
42:00
Do you see, you know do you see the US government heading down
42:04
the a similar path? I think probably more tea not
42:10
necessarily at the Bitcoin level meaning you know our our
42:14
accounts and we'd have but more the wallet level that it like in
42:18
terms of whether we'd be allowed to have a nun hosted wallet
42:21
meaning. I mean, we call could have it,
42:23
right? But have there be some kind of
42:26
ownerís law that would say, you know, every while it has to be
42:28
like listed on an exchange or KY seed.
42:33
That's where I think that this could go and that's where the
42:35
danger is. I don't think we're we're going
42:37
to here like let's call it like a shadow ban writerly, you know,
42:41
double secret probation like you're not going to have her
42:43
just come out and say hey we're Banning Bitcoin.
42:45
There's a lot of Market forces you have companies like Fidelity
42:48
that are adopting Bitcoin you have enough people and
42:51
institutions who Who like to use, you know, use Bitcoin.
42:56
And so, the problem though, is like, if you had gold right?
42:59
Is it really my right to say to you now?
43:01
I mean, you can hold gold now but like, you know, if you were
43:04
to say like okay, I have some gold.
43:06
Like I need to know about your goal, you need to report it to
43:09
me. And then any unrealized gains,
43:11
maybe we need to start taxing it.
43:13
I mean, I think they start taxing it, right?
43:15
That's always the way once they get the hooks into the taxation
43:17
part. And so I just think that Like it
43:24
just might not be the United States where Bitcoin can fulfill
43:27
come to it's like full potential, right?
43:29
Initially because of the regulations here, I hope that
43:32
changes. I want the u.s. to be the best
43:34
in the world for holding Bitcoin.
43:36
But, you know, I don't know where that's going to be if
43:38
that's El Salvador somewhere else where it's very clear, what
43:42
rights you have to kind of use this.
43:43
Use this technology one thing that they have to change their
43:48
planning on and if they don't do this, Digitally they're going to
43:53
be in a lot of trouble is recognizing the Bitcoin goes
43:57
around the world. So like for instance they're
43:58
talking about like you know, maybe if they do self-hosted
44:01
while it's or have all the exchanges, be mandatorily like
44:04
at the cftc and like let's say you know just like with a
44:08
commodity let's say hello, wait a minute, you know that spot
44:10
Market a Bitcoin. It's seems like it's being
44:12
fraudulent or so you know let's just no one should know.
44:15
One can trade in Bitcoin for like a month, you know.
44:18
Just the way they like stopped short sales.
44:20
Well, think about that, right? Like every other countries trade
44:22
Adding Bitcoin. It's 24/7.
44:24
Like how do you stop? You're going to stop.
44:26
Just the US exchanges you know? I mean it would be like you know
44:30
prohibition-era everyone would be we'd all be trading Bitcoin.
44:33
You know, underneath like there's some there's no way that
44:36
wouldn't be the like, the next big prohibition-era thing.
44:39
They'd realize it was a huge mistake.
44:41
And he'd realized, look, we can't just say, hey, we're going
44:43
to stop Bitcoin because well, No pun intended, but we always know
44:47
you. You can't stop it.
44:48
So man, this is its It's fascinating to me that, you
44:56
know, we're living totally two different experiences.
44:59
You know, you're in d.c. Miami main content, right?
45:03
You're in the regular fighting on the regulatory front and
45:06
we're coming to the same conclusions, right?
45:08
And yeah I fundamentally agree. I think any country that has a
45:11
strong fiat currency and which the government benefits
45:15
tremendously from being able to issue it, they're going to fight
45:18
tooth and nail to keep on to keep on to that because it's
45:21
just itself survival, man, you know, they're not, they're not
45:23
going to just hear hand. Over the keys Bitcoins a thing.
45:26
Thank you for playing like know it's going to be Stalingrad,
45:29
literally every single day hand-to-hand.
45:32
So, but I think this is where the game theory of it is really
45:36
interesting where you might see the development or things that
45:40
are actually happening in other countries.
45:43
And I joke around with Opti all the time.
45:45
I'm like, dude, like if we lose the battle here, everyone's just
45:48
gonna have to move to El Salvador like, you know, and
45:50
like it sucks, man. It sucks, you know.
45:54
And in a way that kind of disillusions me, right?
45:58
Because it's like, you you've been sold on what America
46:02
represents, right? But it's just been
46:04
frankensteined, but in a way, I do, see a clear path and the
46:09
clear path is adoption, right? It's like, that's the way like
46:14
that is the way. Like, that's how you make this,
46:16
that's how we win, right? So, and I think that that is
46:20
potentially something that they might try to at least stem the
46:24
flow. Whoa, I don't think that that
46:26
their CBD. See strategy is going to be as
46:29
successful as they hope. I just I think that they're
46:32
trying to create something and they're trying to search for a
46:36
problem. Yeah, you know the part of
46:40
Bitcoin, I think they're missing a little bit like, and if you go
46:42
back, you can listen to Gary genzler's courses.
46:45
He taught at MIT and I always think it's interesting, because
46:49
there's a course, he has, as many courses, one of them is on
46:52
bitcoin and explains. Why I think there's a really
46:55
good take as far as how Bitcoin might fit into our monetary
46:58
system, kind of talks about his like checking accounts and the
47:01
way it moves money, but ultimately he's very much kind
47:05
of old-school where he's like, look but at the end of the day,
47:07
it's not real money. And someone in the class asked
47:11
and they asked about all these different concepts and he was
47:13
answering all them and then someone like had a concept and
47:17
they said hyper Bitcoin is ation.
47:19
And so he goes who wrote this word, what is?
47:21
Hyper Vic? Quantization.
47:22
It was well, I don't know what that is.
47:23
So Just going to move on and I was like oh man like that's what
47:27
the regulators and lawmakers need to understand is like
47:31
there's and I think maybe they'll start to see which to me
47:34
is gives me the hope they'll sort of the Silver Lining here
47:37
is they realize they can't just outright ban it or just have it
47:40
go away because it exists in other parts of the world.
47:43
And they know that they realize, I'm what will comes a resource
47:45
for Russia and Iran and China tall trade together, and then,
47:48
but we shut our own citizens, our own economy out of that.
47:52
So, in a sense, it's kind of like, It's pretty incredible
47:55
like that. It's like that.
47:56
We all have to every country can't really push down on
47:59
bitcoin if you want to stay a part of like the global economic
48:02
system. And I think that's the one thing
48:04
that keeps me hanging on to think at some point, the u.s.
48:06
going to realize that not make some failure or really, which is
48:10
to me what China did. But that was more, I think to
48:13
out of their own, kind of, like, belief in their own currency,
48:17
their own CB D c-- for their own purposes, but just in general, I
48:21
think. Yeah, I think that might be.
48:23
The one thing is you have to Your stand with Hyper Bitcoin is
48:25
ation can mean or to understand this this is Global Currency.
48:29
This exists everywhere. It can't just be shut off and
48:32
and there I would imagine there's going to be at least the
48:35
beginning of sort of Game Theory.
48:37
Being that out, you know, at the highest levels of every major
48:39
government to realize, you know, Bitcoin can't just be turned
48:43
off. You have to incorporate it.
48:44
So you can't just get rid of it. It makes it very complicated for
48:48
them, not for us. Yeah.
48:50
So, so and where do you think, Regulators ready?
48:54
Think policy makers and politicians?
48:56
Like where do you think their mind is on today?
48:59
Like the status quo? Everything's working fine.
49:03
There's no issues. Like and then this like kind of
49:06
like oh, this is a fun little toy.
49:07
Like where is their head at? Were they looking towards etc?
49:11
Etc. Yeah, I think right now their
49:16
minds on ft x and what happened with Sam Bank been freed.
49:19
It's just kind of the way Congress works and it's moving
49:21
quicker and quicker toward this possibility of life.
49:24
Legislation which I think will more effect crypto exchanges
49:28
than Bitcoin but I think right now their heads are it's less
49:33
about Bitcoin. Bitcoin.
49:34
Really isn't their main concern. Their main concern is people who
49:40
bought tons of Bitcoin, tons of theory and tons of everything
49:43
else. Right on ft x and now have
49:46
nothing. And it because it seems like it
49:49
was clearly criminal activity that was involved.
49:51
So I think what you're going to see The Next Step from
49:54
policymakers Regulators is going to be something, akin to what
49:57
happens with like, holding companies of banks, like Bank of
50:01
America, Wells, Fargo, where you, make sure there aren't
50:04
these affiliate agreements. Make sure, you know, Sam and ten
50:07
other people aren't, like, living together in the Bahamas.
50:09
And, you know, like there shouldn't be that kind of
50:13
closeness. And that's what the Federal
50:14
Reserve. Kind of roots out at the holding
50:16
company level of Banks and that's what chair shared Brown
50:20
remarks were at the Senate. Level is main thought is, we
50:23
need to do. Relation that's going to look at
50:25
the Affiliates and subsidiaries mean what was it like, FTX had
50:28
99 different, you know, affiliate.
50:31
So that's where I think you're going to see the first major
50:33
kind of push on. I don't think Bitcoin is
50:36
necessarily front and center right now, which is largely
50:39
because of this. It's just taken over the news
50:41
cycle right now. So let's talk about the
50:45
political donations made by SPF, right initially?
50:48
What came out, you know. And then all the right wing
50:50
media was like he's donating to the Democrats and then It came
50:54
out, Not only was he donating to the Democrats.
50:56
He was donating to the Republicans kind of like in a
51:00
more like you know back room type of thing.
51:03
But it was donating to both political parties of course we
51:06
never heard about it after that. But what do you?
51:10
What are your thoughts on done to those donations and will they
51:12
spare him jail time? Hmm.
51:18
I think the donations were very strategic, but it's fascinating
51:23
because that this is where people in the policy and
51:28
legislative space got really involved in the crypto space in
51:32
a way that they really don't. Usually because sandbank been
51:36
freed spent in Norman inordinate amount of time on Capitol Hill.
51:40
Not only was he making donations.
51:41
He was there like all the time. Like that meant fewer staff are
51:44
on the hill or congressperson or Senator involved in crypto.
51:48
He probably met with the guy like three or four times, so
51:51
people felt like they had this personal connection with the CEO
51:54
that now obviously turned out to be this total fraud and the
51:58
mores coming up, the more, there's this anger, and
52:00
frustration with him, when they're looking at, just how
52:03
devious he was. And the way he went about it,
52:07
the donations. It's it's kind of like what do
52:10
we do? Do we clawback?
52:11
I mean, for a lot of people run their campaigns that money's
52:14
already used. So what does that mean?
52:16
And it has go across Us too. There's been to Congress people
52:21
so far who have said they've donated it to a charity, which I
52:24
personally think is, you know, the right thing here because it
52:27
clearly is, you know, from customer funds, but it gets
52:31
tricky because it goes to the establishment.
52:32
Like we were just talking about before, you know the political
52:35
campaigning that's the bread and butter the way a lot of these,
52:39
you know, politicians. They have to spend three or four
52:41
hours a day to get reelected, just raising money, it does, you
52:46
know, raise the This this Dark Cloud over the money that he
52:51
specifically was donating both under Democratic and Republican
52:54
side. Is it going to spare him Bill
52:56
jail time? Maybe I'm not that it's kind of
53:01
over my pay grade. I kind of go though to the
53:03
statistic of, I don't remember who it was like the number of
53:07
billionaires that go to jail is almost nothing, right?
53:10
So even though he was a billionaire on paper, it's going
53:14
to be very hard. I think, you know, but then
53:17
again if he runs Out of money and people get frustrated enough
53:19
with them. They might want to make an
53:21
example of it. It's very clear that this, this
53:25
was somebody who is. This is extraordinarily was not
53:30
making the donations in good faith, even write it just he was
53:33
doing it all as sort of a game and its really its I'm sure your
53:38
listeners could explain it better than me.
53:39
It's kind of beyond my comprehension out.
53:41
Someone kind of Acts that maniacally.
53:45
So how do you feel about that Jason?
53:48
Because to me that is tragic, right?
53:50
You have an open source developer sitting in jail in the
53:54
Netherlands without bail, right for developing privacy software
53:58
and then you have this guy who literally stole billions of
54:04
dollars roaming free Yeah. You know, I don't I don't
54:16
ultimately I mean, I know he, you know, he's speaking a guest
54:19
today. But I think that like to me,
54:25
that's where the priorities. The Regulators have to be
54:28
straightened out and there has to be a little bit of.
54:31
Let's go beyond like the who did what or who donated to what I
54:36
do. I think it's it's clear like if
54:39
you're going to go after Kim Kardashian you got to go after
54:42
this guy. Bye, right?
54:43
And is so like to me and this is again like with the meteorite
54:50
like I don't fully understand all the parts of the media but
54:52
this New York Times doing this thing with deal book today and
54:55
enter Ross Sorkin it's so obvious to me it's just a way to
54:58
get more subscribers for New York Times but meanwhile like
55:02
you know there should just be and and in the problem I think
55:07
that you're going to see what this specific case was Sam
55:10
Venkman freed is That it's in the Bahamas and he's going to
55:14
use that cross-jurisdictional aspect of things.
55:17
Like I guess the Bahamas, you moved all the money and there's
55:20
a fight between whether it's going to be go through the
55:21
bankruptcy court in New York or or there.
55:24
So that's one thing that, you know, needs to be remembered
55:29
right? Is he was operating out of the
55:31
Bahamas. He wasn't operating here in the
55:33
US. And so what we originally
55:37
thought was, well, he can't do it because the Regulators really
55:39
don't get it. Overall, it's It's just it's an
55:43
unfortunate - for the industry but at a minimum it's a good
55:46
reminder that I mean the justice system isn't perfect people who
55:50
have a lot of money and you know not having a serve time and
55:53
that's just unfortunate that world we live in them, sorry to
55:55
be a little skeptical about it but that's just what I've seen
55:58
over a long course of period. Of time of people being able to
56:01
avoid jail time, if you have the money to fight and, you know,
56:03
the legal system. So, do you think that is?
56:06
Do you think that is a result of Fiat?
56:10
Do you think that's a result of You know what, Fiat enables, how
56:14
the Fiat system works? Do you think that same type of
56:17
Justice would that would that change under a Bitcoin standard?
56:23
Yeah, I think it would I do, I think that would take out a lot
56:27
of these flawed incentives, where people try to maintain
56:31
their power or do things to ensure they can stay as the
56:34
incumbent and perhaps move us to a little bit more of a
56:38
meritocracy where it's a matter of, you know, what are you
56:41
doing? You know, what is it that you're
56:43
earning, you know, bringing to the table.
56:47
So I think it can help. I don't think you can solve the
56:50
problem, but I definitely think the way the Fiat system is now
56:55
it's obviously extraordinarily corruptible.
56:57
And I mean there's been some advancements obviously since
57:00
1776, but we're still stuck in a, in a world where it's, you
57:03
know, the Haves and the Have Nots and that's increasing every
57:05
day. So yeah, man, well, I really,
57:10
really enjoyed this book. For we go I want to ask you
57:14
because you know this whole conversation.
57:17
It just made me double down and realize that at the end of the
57:23
day specific you want to stay in the United States.
57:25
You don't want to move till Salvador, really?
57:28
There needs to be enough political willpower in order to
57:31
effectuate change and protect Bitcoin.
57:34
Protect the right to self custody, etc, etc.
57:37
So and that all really starts on an individual level, right?
57:41
Because that's really What it is, right?
57:43
It has to be on an individual grassroot type of movement,
57:47
level, type of way. So what would you recommend to
57:50
individuals? Like, what would you, what would
57:53
you have? What would you?
57:55
What would you tell them? Two individuals.
58:04
I think that at this point right now like you know I don't think
58:09
it's the need is like pack up our bags and move to El
58:12
Salvador. I think like looking to like the
58:15
Bitcoin policy Institute. It's a great thing tank run by
58:18
David Zale and it's got the support of Swan and others is
58:22
think about how amongst the Bitcoin meetups and everything
58:26
else we can somehow put together something that's the equivalent
58:29
of the National Rifle Association.
58:31
And I don't say that like Not like, because that's sort of a
58:35
conservative concept. I think you can be like, both
58:38
Democratic and Republican in nature, but there's enough
58:42
people out there amongst the listeners.
58:44
Amongst you me, who want to be part of kind of a club that just
58:49
makes it clear to people in Congress.
58:51
Look, just don't mess with the Bitcoin, you know, like let us
58:54
do, our self custody thing, let us do whatever and very similar
58:57
to the power that the it really is a Grassroots campaign with an
59:01
array has is I mean, you see what happens anytime someone
59:04
tries to do something with gun legislation, you know, it's like
59:07
within a second. It's there's mobilized force
59:09
that goes to stop it and you know, whatever your opinion is
59:12
on guns. That's the kind of power that I
59:15
think this community needs to comb lesson together so that we
59:20
can push back and keep it the way we want this country to be
59:24
kept and that's really interesting.
59:27
So that actually might serve as a template.
59:31
How end the, how the A works and that actually might serve as a
59:37
good kind of guide on how we structure this on in the
59:41
political level in a political sense is really fascinating.
59:46
Jason, I really enjoyed this conversation man.
59:48
Thank you so much for coming on. I would love to get you back on
59:52
in a couple months ago in a couple months or so, and we can
59:56
kind of recap where, where, you know, the current clown world is
1:00:00
and What legislation is doing, except For excetera.
1:00:04
Sure, absolutely thanks for having me.
1:00:06
It's a real honor to be on your show.
1:00:07
Clap be connected and look forward to talking to you soon.
1:00:10
Why don't you tell everybody Jason where they can find you on
1:00:13
social media and what you're working on nowadays?
1:00:16
Yeah, you can find me at at regulatory Jason on Twitter in.
1:00:22
DM me, it's really the best place.
1:00:25
And right now I'm actually doing this.
1:00:27
Very interesting concept of trying to figure out how to
1:00:30
track ongoing political Nations. I kind of call it like lights on
1:00:34
lobbying so we can kind of track if there's another SPF or
1:00:38
someone in the ecosystem that comes in and start to like alert
1:00:42
bitcoiners like, hey, there's this one issue.
1:00:45
Something doesn't seem right here and and that's I'll
1:00:48
hopefully have something to roll out in January to kind of help
1:00:52
people just sort of shared data to the database that immediately
1:00:55
alerts us to whose lobbying on what?
1:00:57
So if it's if it's Chris Larson from Ripple, trying to, you
1:00:59
know, change the with Greenpeace or whatever that might be, Be,
1:01:03
you know, so, I will Jason. Thank you so much for for coming
1:01:08
today. I'm going to roll this out.
1:01:09
There's a slight 15-second delay.
1:01:11
So bear with me guys, we'll see you back tomorrow. 12:15 p.m.
1:01:16
Eastern Standard time or another episode of Simply Bitcoin live.
1:01:19
Love you all. Catch you guys later.