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#85 Courage Over Confidence: Building Habits That Win with Dr. Mitchell Greene · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

Sarah (00:00.152) for a second because we'll have to make sure everything's uploaded but alright we're good College Is Fine Podcast (00:04.801) you We're good. It's recording. Sarah (00:10.158) Apologies to our listeners today. I'm a little squeaky. keep on trying to get laryngitis on purpose so can sound like Liz forever and ever. But today it went awry and I just kind of I sound like I'm going through puberty. So sorry about that. Mitch, you know how that was, You remember those days? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the squeak will just come right out. I sound like a 14 year old boy. So but. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (00:28.678) course, I asked. Sure, Sarah, whatever you say. College Is Fine Podcast (00:35.704) You Sarah (00:38.69) I am Mitch and I go way back all the way back to 2025 when we worked together at a startup and it was so exciting to meet him. He would just brought this breath of fresh air because so many of the people that we were working with had a really good handle on things like anxiety, depression, OCD, but so many students and college students are in a particular kind of, I think, mix of athlete performer, Dancer or singer whatever that is as well as being a student and there's a lens that I think sports psychologists bring to the table that I don't know you guys I don't know if you're cooler if you just are more athletic and generally more in shape like I think you're I've seen your biceps Mitch and You obviously lifts you're obviously going to the gym. So we're excited to talk to dr. Mitchell green of green psych and hear about Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (01:21.008) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're just better people, really. Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (01:31.438) You Sarah (01:37.624) his take on performance anxiety and sports anxiety. yeah, I definitely want to highlight that book that you wrote that I think gives just some of the greatest quick tips for anyone who's trying to be a student, a person, and an athlete. So hello. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (01:56.167) Well, hi. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Happy to be here. Sarah (02:00.238) Yeah. So Liz, we, I know, talk a lot about the idea of performance anxiety. And by the way, it's kind of funny because some people here are like, performance anxiety, performance enhancement. We're like, no, we're just talking about if you're on a stage or on a field or on the court, what do people hear, Mitch, when they think about anxiety in those situations? What do they get right and what do they get wrong about how those students are feeling? College Is Fine Podcast (02:07.808) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (02:25.296) Yeah, well, thank you again. for having me. think a lot of people tend to think that the people who get performance anxiety are the ones who show up who are unprepared, who aren't really ready to go, maybe haven't done the work or put the time in, whether it's in the gym or preparing for a performance. And that is actually, that can be true, but the kind of people that I talk to the most are the most prepared, are perhaps over prepared. And because they're so prepared and because they are so committed, the anxiety shows College Is Fine Podcast (02:36.769) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (02:51.199) Mm-hmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (02:57.602) up in spades because they're so afraid of how far they might fall or how much that all that hard work may not turn out to pay off for them. So I think what people get wrong is they think it's that the people who get to the Olympic level, the pro level, the college sports level, you know, should be past that at that point. But if anything, they're the ones with the most performance anxiety. You know, the recent Winter Olympics are a great example. And for me, it's wonderful because more and more of these stud athletes are talking about the fact that they're terrified, that they live in fear. And some of them have talked about the way they can corral it and manage it. And others have been brutally honest that on the world stage, they collapse like that figure skater under that sort of immense pressure, but that they feel it just as much, if not more than anybody else. College Is Fine Podcast (03:29.727) Yeah. Sarah (03:48.748) Yeah. Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (03:50.933) And I'm interested. mean, I see a lot of student athletes at the collegiate level in my office. And I think sometimes they're coming to me for performance anxiety. And it's even difficult for me to kind of distinguish to them why it might be more beneficial for them to see a sports performance kind of coach or somebody who specializes in this versus clinical counseling. Can you explain the difference between like, what is sports performance work really look like? And how is that different than from traditional therapy? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (04:21.392) Yeah, it may be helpful just to say, so I'm, I like to say I'm ambidextrous because I have a PhD in clinical psych. So I'm a clinician, a therapist who has this specialty practice in sports. And so I just mentioned that because... sports psych or sports counseling. There's lots of people who do it but have different degrees and different kinds of expertise. There's plenty of sport. If you get a degree in sports psychology, you're not a clinician. You're really only working with sort of performance stuff where someone like me, who's both can both work on mental health and performance and often some sort of combination of each. But when people come and want to talk about College Is Fine Podcast (04:40.852) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (04:58.994) is about, yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (05:04.06) the game and how to get ready for the big game, if I'm answering your question right Liz, the kinds of things that they're worried about is that they're not performing in games as well as they do in practice. They're so underperforming. College Is Fine Podcast (05:15.262) Mm-hmm Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (05:19.472) they're so distracted by thoughts in their head, they can't seem to focus and concentrate. For some, physiologically, they're getting sick to their stomachs, they're puking, their legs feel like solid, you know, heavy rocks, and they can't seem to move as quickly as they normally did because they're sort of in panic mode. And so those are the people who come to see me around performance. Oftentimes it has to do with underperforming in big moments and big games, lack of lack of confidence or loss of confidence like I used to have it, I don't know where it went. College Is Fine Podcast (05:25.854) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (05:31.526) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (05:43.942) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (05:49.278) wet, Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (05:49.853) And so they know that they're not enjoying their sport as much as they could otherwise and that they're not reaching their potential based on all their hard work and talent. Sarah (06:00.032) Well, you started to mention some of that, that there's a few things like their minds are very busy or they can't concentrate. So why do you think it is that some people can perform well in practice and then it's time for the show or the game and suddenly they are feeling stuck or sick? What are some common things you see? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (06:20.389) Well, What I often say is that these athletes don't necessarily learn from their coaches or from anybody how to manage that voice in their head that is bound to show up in high stakes situations. And as you both know, but the audience doesn't, call that term, I call that mind chatter. That's my term for the doubts, the second guessing and the negative thinking that will show up, but may not show up in practice, may not show up in that typical Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday practice. College Is Fine Podcast (06:28.256) Thanks Sarah (06:38.551) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (06:38.644) Mm-hmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (06:51.062) but all of a sudden in Wham-O it shows up on that weekend in that big tournament in that big game and that's for a couple reasons which includes the fact that chatter is always going to show up when the uncertainty and the stakes feel really big and so some people though definitely just naturally don't get as chattery as others for one reason or another some people have trained their mind and kind of have a perspective over it that just doesn't let the chatter rule the day but of course those aren't the people I see the people I see are the ones who College Is Fine Podcast (07:01.543) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (07:20.862) ever even knew that it was normal to have a mind to have mine chatter and no one's yet taught them how to manage it. All they know is that they're not confident. think there's something wrong with them because they're not confident. They keep trying to get confident. And then all of a sudden they're like get even more mad at themselves because like I can't even do this confidence thing right. Like what's the matter with me? What's wrong with me? And the you know, one of the best parts of my job is I get to often disabuse them of this idea that there's actually anything wrong with them. It's just that under these conditions of high stakes and uncertainty, their mind chatter sort of goes on duty. And, you know, we can get in as deep as we want, but the chatter has its own agenda and its own job that it's trying to perform, which, which tends to sabotage the athlete and all the focus that they're trying to put into their sport. College Is Fine Podcast (07:50.676) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (08:04.978) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (08:12.894) Right. You said something about confidence that I think it's worthwhile talking about because as someone who coaches youth sports, I see a lot of athletes. have three kids who play a lot of sports. The messaging, I think, to a lot of athletes is that they need to be more confident. So can you talk a little bit about this maybe belief that confidence is necessary for success and maybe what are the consequences for chasing that kind of confidence for athletic performance? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (08:28.252) Bye-bye. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (08:44.528) Yeah, so I mean, maybe if I start at the end, I mean, one of the biggest takeaways people tend to get from talking with me is that you don't need to feel a certain way in order to play a certain way. these athletes, as you just said, Liz, and it's so true, there's a lot of what I call sort of pop sports psychology out there, which is just like you got to, you know, like, if you're not confident, then what's wrong with you, and you should be confident. And of course, I, I'm not against confidence, I want my athletes to be confident, but they don't come to me when they're confident, right? They don't come to my door, they're feeling confident, you know, I say, I'm to get out of your way. So part of this pop psychology notion is athletes feel like there's something wrong with them, because College Is Fine Podcast (09:00.351) Yeah. Sarah (09:11.009) Ha ha ha ha. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (09:23.806) they're petrified and they're terrified. One of the most privileged things about my job is I might be sometimes the first person they've said, and these could be pro athletes talking to me, I might be the first person they're telling that they're freaking out out there, that they're actually panicking and they sometimes don't know what they're doing or what to do. The idea is that it's very hard to feel confident when that voice is going on in your head. That chattery voice is trying to tell you about everything that could go wrong. What I tend to do is just normalize the fact that their confidence is going to go up and down. may be high in practice or they may be high in that particular game because for whatever reason the stakes didn't feel so big. But it makes sense to me that that next weekend that your confidence is gone, nowhere to be found because for all all of a sudden that opponent that kind of tournament, whatever it is, all of a sudden the stakes feel really big to that athlete for one reason or another. weren't college coaches watching in this one. So the stakes didn't feel so big. College Is Fine Podcast (09:59.937) Mm-hmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (10:23.848) but there's college coaches watching in this one. This competition didn't have anything to do with ranking and gaining or losing ranking points, but this one did. So a lot of athletes don't put that together that even though they're like, I'm just playing every weekend, it's the same sport, but it's the same but it's different. It's different and it depends on the context in which they're playing, who they're playing, what the messaging is from coaches around that particular game. I hope that kind of answers at least some of your question. College Is Fine Podcast (10:25.44) All College Is Fine Podcast (10:39.464) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (10:51.186) Yeah, well, I mean, think it and then Sarah, interested to hear your thoughts, that confidence is not necessarily this magical pill that's going to be directly linked to improvement in athletic performance. Sarah (11:04.523) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (11:04.75) Absolutely. I'm sorry. Yeah, Sarah, if you wanted to add to that, but yeah. Sarah (11:08.329) No, not at all. was just thinking about this idea of, you know, so many times where people just say like, okay, you just need to feel confident. You should have confidence. It's like saying like, just don't worry. Or, you know, you need to be more motivated. It's like, well, if people could do that, they would. If they knew how to do it, they would, you know, so just saying that right is a little so. Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (11:20.956) exactly right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (11:26.682) And that's part of my, right, part of what I talk when I give my parent talks, that's a big message of pieces. if I can get them and I understand I have three kids like I get I get why parents say that why you want your kids to believe in yourself why they should believe in themselves. Absolutely. It's like I don't I don't have a problem with it. But I just try to get them to say it's actually makes you your kids sometimes feel like you don't really don't get it. You really don't and you can relate to this just from your work with anxiety right in general, how we coach parents you know, to make sure that their kid gets that they get it. Sarah (11:40.887) Yeah. Sarah (11:50.423) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (11:50.464) Bam, bam, bam. Sarah (12:00.672) Right, right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (12:01.668) at just telling them to chill out isn't gonna get them to chill out. Sarah (12:04.396) And I also think sometimes parents or coaches, it's like they do actually have confidence in you. So they're sort of confused. Like, well, why wouldn't you? It's a compliment in a way, but it can just miss the mark. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (12:14.97) Yeah, yeah. And part of the reason it's hard to be confident is because you can't control the outcome. You can have confidence in your training, confidence in your prep, confidence in your teammates, confidence in your coaches. But when we're talking about confidence in this context, I'm often meaning like, you can't directly control what's gonna happen. And for a lot of, and because you directly can't control that, you know, the mind is going to sort of, you know, drum up all these worst case scenarios. College Is Fine Podcast (12:20.231) Right. Right. College Is Fine Podcast (12:31.136) you Sarah (12:40.746) Yeah, yeah, for sure. Speaking of the mind drumming things up, okay, so you started to talk about mind chatter. Can you go into that a little bit more? Is that the same thing as anxiety for you? Yeah. Is there a reason? Yeah, like I like the term though. feels. College Is Fine Podcast (12:40.8) Mm-hmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (12:51.068) I think so. I think so. I think so. And the same thing is fear. You know what? I'm not sure what the difference between fear, anxiety, and mind chatter is, but I get a huge benefit out of labeling... what their experience is in a very different way than perhaps they've ever heard of before. There's a benefit. And that's actually how I grabbed onto MindChatter. I started talking about it with athletes. Even in a first session, I might kind of give them an idea of what it is and they come back in the second one. They'd be like, doc, like my MindChatter was nuts before the game started, but then I scored it a goal in the first five minutes and it was gone. And all of a sudden I realized like they're using this term. There's something about it that's not, doesn't have such stigma to it, where anxiety is so used so ubiquitously that, you know, kids start to feel like there's there's that they are anxiety and I kind of talked about it as this entity unto itself, this chattery entity that pops up. And kids have grabbed onto it, not just kids, know, adults have grabbed onto it. The idea is that it's chatterous with the doubts, the second guessing and the negative thinking, and that there's very specific conditions when it shows up. And when I Sarah (13:37.045) Right, right. College Is Fine Podcast (13:37.438) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (13:56.905) Right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (14:06.088) start to lay that out for these athletes and explain to them why it didn't show up last weekend, but it showed up two weekends before. And and why it shows up in certain aspects of their life and not others. They begin to see that it's not so random what's happening to them. It's not so like, my god, I don't know what's going on with me. no, no, actually, we can we can now predict when it's apt to show up and when it's apt not to show up. That's very empowering. College Is Fine Podcast (14:22.56) Right. Sarah (14:23.998) Yeah. Sarah (14:31.98) I like that. You can kind of write. You feel like it's a little bit more in their control. At least there's some awareness like, it's probably going to show up here, so let me get prepared. College Is Fine Podcast (14:37.536) you Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (14:40.496) and you can prepare for it, which is a huge piece of my philosophy. Yeah. Sarah (14:44.812) Can I ask a follow-up question? Are there different flavors of mind chatter? Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (14:49.38) Yeah, I think I know what you mean, but you want to say what you mean by flavors? College Is Fine Podcast (14:51.744) you Sarah (14:53.62) Yeah, you said like doubt, second guessing, fortune telling, you know, like are there different types of it or does it all kind of seem like yes, maybe, but really it's mostly just the fact that you're not kind of in the present moment, you're in your head, right? It's like, does it matter that there's flavors? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (14:57.275) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (15:08.988) It's mostly that you're not in your moment, but there are definitely some people who are way more negative, and others who are a little bit more doubtful. There aren't those, you know, there some kids who will beat themselves up and say they suck, and, you know, and that they're no good. And then there are ones who don't really go there. But I think your second part is more of the case, which is I don't actually spend too much time going. Is it more doubt than negativity or second guessing than this? Because at the end of the day, I don't think that's ultimately what matters. I think it's just this concept that there's something in their mind that has nothing to do with the game itself that distracts them and occupies their minds such that everything that they've worked so hard to achieve is like out of sight, out of mind when they step out of the ball field. Sarah (15:36.78) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (15:45.118) Mm-hmm. Sarah (15:53.867) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (15:54.736) That's the meta message is probably more important than the differences between people. Sarah (15:59.659) And is the idea that you have to get rid of it completely? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (16:03.481) In fact, that's not the idea at all. The idea is actually that you want to make room for it. College Is Fine Podcast (16:04.929) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (16:09.18) the idea what's happened oftentimes by the time they see me, they've tried not to hear it. They've tried to ignore it. They try to get rid of it. They try to block it out. They try to distract themselves with it. And none of that in and of itself works for more than 30 seconds, you know, or they give themselves all sorts of positive affirmations because that's the other piece of pop psychology that tends to go south for these kids or people. You know, I'm a beast, I'm a rock star. And like that works. That beast, you know, mode thing work and work for like 30 seconds. College Is Fine Podcast (16:15.039) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (16:26.665) Mm-hmm Sarah (16:34.688) Hahaha Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (16:39.184) until you feel like you're a big wimp, which they're not. So the idea is I'm trying to change the relationship they have to their doubts. Instead of seeing them as a sign that there's something wrong, unprepared, not ready to kick ass, something wrong with them, we're kind of going, yeah, right on cue, your chatter's here. And instead of fighting it, how can we let it be there? And we have lots of ways that I talk to athletes about it. Sarah (16:42.464) Yeah, yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (17:09.084) and the old sort of Buddhist saying of what you resist will persist and what you let be will let you be is sort of mindful approach. Although I don't use the term mindfulness much at all with any of them, some will ask about it because again, I think that often is an often a used phrase that these kids have already heard and they are like, you're gonna tell me to breathe? that all you're gonna do? I'm like, no. College Is Fine Podcast (17:13.313) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (17:24.585) Yep. Right. Sarah (17:26.581) Yeah. I know, I know. I'm always like, raise your hand if you don't want to breathe anymore or ever be mindful again. And it's like, oh yeah. Right. I mean, yeah, yeah. And I also like breathing just in general. mean, to keep me alive. it's not, yeah, I'm not anti-breath, but I think I could, I understand why kids have and students have some resistance to it for sure. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (17:34.204) Yeah, and not that I'm against breathing, but there's some things you can't breathe your way out of, you know? College Is Fine Podcast (17:34.654) Right, right. College Is Fine Podcast (17:39.22) Right, right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (17:49.2) Me too. College Is Fine Podcast (17:50.69) Maybe we could pivot to talk a little bit about goal setting and you talk a little bit about the difference between results goals and action goals. Can you explain a little bit about the differences and if there is an association with performance changing or anxiety changing? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (18:08.698) Yeah, absolutely. outcome goals are those what it sounds like. You know, I want to win the game. I want to win the tournament. I want to be top 10. I want to get on the podium. I want to make the playoffs. want to the national championship, a result-oriented, outcome-oriented goal. And I want to make sure my athletes know that I want them to have outcome goals. I want you to want to win the game, win the tournament, and get on the podium. There's nothing, in fact, if you didn't want to get on the podium or win, like I would, I would be more concerned about it. College Is Fine Podcast (18:39.243) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (18:40.348) But as we said the problem becomes once the game starts you have no direct control over whether you're to get on base or not or make the basket or not or run the time you want to run in the race or not and so they actually and again this is news for a lot of these athletes they're actually completely unhelpful once the game starts because because you don't have any control over them. And so athletes get that, but then they often don't know, where should I be focused? What is important to focus on? And that's what I refer to as action goals. Other people might call them process goals or stepping stone goals. used to call them step goals. Doesn't matter. The idea is what are those goals within the game that you want to sort of set out to achieve, work on, improve on, that are under your control? And how can we, and that to me is the fun part of the work, College Is Fine Podcast (19:04.683) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (19:16.491) Right, right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (19:32.153) because now we're talking sports. Now we're talking about that game. And now we're talking about the nuances of the game. And I'm trying to get them to see where does their chatter tend to beat the shit out of them the most? Where does the chat tend to like grab them and put them in a headlock? You know, it could be in the second part of that that 800 meter race that they have. And so we're game planning around how it's apt to show up right on cue as we talked about it. When the legs start to fatigue and the chest starts to, you know, beat out of your, you know, your heart starts to beat out. Sarah (19:32.159) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (19:33.857) You College Is Fine Podcast (19:43.371) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (20:02.056) your chest and so we game plan on what action goal in that particular moment might be important. And sometimes it can be something physical, like I might tell a runner to speed up for 10 seconds just to prove to their chatter so to speak. College Is Fine Podcast (20:18.241) Mm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (20:19.868) with it because their chatter is not it. You know, we're getting in the weeds a little bit. Their chatter is not interested in them speeding up. The chatter is interested in them stopping and maybe leaving, getting off the track and convincing them why this is all going to go to hell. And we want to kind of sometimes do the opposite. You know that from your work and anxiety about do the opposite. So that could show up like that. An action goal for a baseball player could be about about paying attention to where their elbow is or where their eyes are. In other words, something that they've told me College Is Fine Podcast (20:23.018) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (20:27.445) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (20:34.995) Right. Yeah. Sarah (20:36.203) Right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (20:49.822) I'm not telling them, they're telling me is important to getting the best swing on the ball possible. College Is Fine Podcast (20:55.047) Mmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (20:58.798) trying to see if they could commit to those things, gently commit to them. You don't want to be thinking like, where's my elbow, where are my eyes, where's my elbow, where are my eyes, right? Like, you don't want to be freaking out about that, but how can we gently commit to these things, occupy the mind with something that's under their control. And that kind of at least gives you a sense of the flavor of the work we do, yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (21:03.425) the whole time. Right, right, right. College Is Fine Podcast (21:14.516) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (21:18.153) Yeah. Love that. Sarah (21:20.523) So basically, you're just saying, fuck with your mind chatter. Really just, yeah. Be like a dick to it. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (21:27.004) It's funny to say that because I have talked to people and I had a whole college team put on the back of their practice jerseys, FU chatter, right? So I don't usually talk about it in the FU kind of way, but for some people that's where they go with it, like you, Sarah. But for me, I sometimes actually have them find a place to put it. Sarah (21:38.645) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah (21:53.141) Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (21:53.405) Which is sort of fun and we got this from one of our Olympic skiers at the Olympics in a mogul skier who on her second run up She and her coach were about to take that second the chair up for her second run and she said wait a second and she let one chair go Seemingly empty but she's like, okay chatter you go first and then she gets to the top of the chair and where the extra skis are the Gatorade and stuff is she she gets to the top and she tells chatter you wait over there and watch me do what I do and she College Is Fine Podcast (22:10.752) Mm. Sarah (22:11.685) Mm-hmm. Sarah (22:22.507) Mm-hmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (22:23.368) She has a place between the red skis and the blue skis next to the Gatorade. I she's creating a space. And so we often, I will show athletes, whether you're a pitcher or a runner, like where can you put it? it might sound a little cheesy and corny, but the athletes totally get it and totally dig it because they're like, yeah, I put it on the second bleacher all the way to the right, you know, like there. Now that doesn't mean it's going to stay there, but they get it that they are not their chatter. College Is Fine Podcast (22:29.138) Yeah. Sarah (22:40.658) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (22:41.056) you College Is Fine Podcast (22:44.8) You Sarah (22:45.427) Right. Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (22:52.468) separate, yeah. Sarah (22:52.628) Right, right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (22:53.328) that there's you who wants to like run this first lap at this pace and try to do this and try to do that. And then as your chatter has its own agenda, which isn't about running fast, it's about protecting you from getting hurt physically or psychologically. And so where can we put it? So it's not as much sometimes an F you as like, thanks, but no thanks. College Is Fine Podcast (23:07.424) Mm-hmm. Sarah (23:15.347) Right, right. It's sort of like, OK, thank you for your time. I'm going to, I'm going to, yeah, you've invited me. I'm going to RSVP no to this little, this little safety party. Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (23:18.864) Yeah, thanks for sharing. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (23:23.546) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and that's novel in the world of sports. That is like, are you kidding me? Like, because I thought I had to be so locked in so beastie so like not have doubts. And they're like, well, I'm like, no, of course you're gonna have doubts like, so it's really, it's really great to see when it all comes together for athletes. Sarah (23:46.741) Well, I like that you keep it classy Mitch. College Is Fine Podcast (23:48.672) You Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (23:49.148) Get the glass. Yeah, I don't go there, Sarah. Although some want to go there, so I will. Sarah (23:56.235) So what would you say the role that coaches, mentors, I mean know some sports teams have a sports psychologist on staff, others don't. So what is the interplay there? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (24:09.936) Yeah, it's huge. mean, a good coach or a good mentor could make a huge difference in terms of kids. kind of getting on the right side of their of their fears. You know, there are plenty of coaches out there that still will say if you're not confident, you're not ready to go. And if you don't believe in yourself, you're not ready to go. And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of kids who don't struggle with this, right? There are plenty of people who just who kind of like get nervous, you know, and they sort of just like and then all of a sudden the pitch is coming in there and they're locked in. So for many athletes on their teams. College Is Fine Podcast (24:31.754) Right. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (24:43.782) When they say, you got to be confident, believe in yourself, that's the language that helps and enhances their performance. For some kids, when they hear that you need to be confident, it actually does the opposite. So part of my role and others is educating coaches on kind of like, there's just not a one size fits all here. And with the amount of anxiety we're seeing in kids and where youth sports is these days, younger and younger, higher and higher stakes, the parents are so involved. College Is Fine Podcast (25:02.965) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (25:07.489) you Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (25:12.73) coaches need to be up to speed on the fact that they, if they could start to language things a little bit different and use some of this terminology, that a lot of the kids will hear it better and perform a whole lot better. So the coaches can play an enormous role and lots of good coaches are out there trying to learn. as much as they can about how to approach these kids who bring all this stuff to the table. Like, you know, these college coaches and I talked to him, I just got back from a college where I gave, you know, a series of workshops over like three days to like eight different teams. And these college coaches, like what's going on with these kids? Like they're inheriting super anxious kids who like they finally made it to college. You'd think you'd like be like, okay, I could relax a little bit. Anything the machine just keeps keeps turning. College Is Fine Podcast (25:36.501) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (25:54.537) Right. Right, right, right. Sarah (26:00.137) Right, we've had student athletes say to us, know, the better I get, the more I feel pressure to perform, right? So a lot of times that can happen too. And are you noticing coaches being a little bit more open to some of these conversations or do you get some pushback? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (26:06.416) Yes. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (26:14.672) I think more coaches are open to this because they understand that you have to meet the kids where they are. And there's more parents looking for programs, whether it's club teams or colleges even, that have people like me on staff because they recognize their kids. College Is Fine Podcast (26:24.243) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (26:28.01) Mm-hmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (26:31.832) Need a lot of support. So I do think there's a shift and and part of it is a trickle-down shift from the from the pro athletes story as I mentioned in Olympic out that's talking about it more the pro teams all the major professional sports teams have sports psychologists for each team and These those athletes are talking more and more about it. So colleges now it's not yet a requirement It's not a mandate from the NCAA, but it's it's coming It's certainly for the D1 program College Is Fine Podcast (26:36.544) Proud. Yeah. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (27:01.646) D3s are a little bit different. And now high schools are even, you know, bringing us in to talk to the high school coaches because they recognize these kids are so chattery oftentimes. Sarah (27:12.19) Yeah, that's great. College Is Fine Podcast (27:14.356) Okay, let's end with a big question. I always like asking these questions that might have impossible answers, but Mitch, if an athlete was listening to this conversation and they're gonna remember one thing that we talked about, or maybe one thing that we haven't talked about, what should it be? Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (27:33.072) you actually set me up really well is for not an impossible question. So I have a mantra that I trademarked years ago of courage over confidence. That's actually sort of the name and title of my book. And the idea that I want them to take away with them is that we don't need to be confident to play well. And that it's often in the face of a chattery mind that tells you all the things that could go wrong. It's really about how to be more courageous in that moment than confident. College Is Fine Podcast (27:35.566) Hello. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (28:02.67) and courageous because you can't be courageous by definition except in the presence of doubt and fear. And so I try to get them to see these opportunities of chattery opportunities as opportunities for them to find their courage and to play with courage. And of course, that's easy to say and harder to do, but that's we unpack what that looks like and what that means. And sometimes it's courageous to stay committed to their action goals when chatter is telling them to walk off the track or to give up. You know, how can they continue? That could be an College Is Fine Podcast (28:08.384) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (28:16.736) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (28:25.824) you Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (28:32.634) of courage. It could be courageous to tell your parents not to go to the game even though you know that they like to be there because you know that distracts you. I there's lots of ways that we could frame courage. So I have athletes leave oftentimes with this band that says courage over confidence and other ways that we kind of talk about being courageous so that they don't feel there's anything wrong with them for not being confident. College Is Fine Podcast (28:39.763) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (28:49.002) Hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (28:55.379) Yeah. Sarah (28:57.31) love that. All right. Well, I am excited because people can find you if they'd like in your practice, but also that you have the book Courage Over Confidence that is easy to grab on Amazon and it's not an intense read. I think it's very practical, so I really encourage anyone to have that on their bookshelf. And it's great that I'm excited to reconnect with you and... College Is Fine Podcast (29:04.224) you Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (29:17.072) No. College Is Fine Podcast (29:17.396) Mm-hmm. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (29:20.476) Thank you. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (29:24.262) Great to see you again. Sarah (29:24.707) keep it. We'll, definitely have you back for some more. Yeah. Some more tips. Mitchell A Greene, Ph.D. (29:27.942) I'd love to come back. Thank you very much for having me. Great questions. I appreciate it. Thank you to both. Pleasure. See you. Yes. Bye-bye. College Is Fine Podcast (29:30.754) Thanks so much. Thanks for being on Match. Okay. Wait.