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Redefining Executive Support: Insights from Ethan Bull · Better Together

• Shawn Sundsvold: Welcome back to Better Together, the podcast where we get real about what it takes to build a business and a life that work together. I'm Sean Sunsvold, joined by my co-host and partner in life and business, Kelly Sunsvold. Today's guest is Ethan Bull, co-founder of Pro Assisting, a firm that's redefining executive support through high-level fractional EA services for business owners and C-suite leaders. Alongside his wife and business partner Stephanie, also co-created the Pro Assisting Academy and co-authored the book, The 29-Hour Workday, A High Performer's Guide to Leveraging Your Executive Assistant. With decades of experience supporting top CEOs, which included billion dollar organizations, Ethan brings a rare inside look at leadership, delegation, and trust. We'll be talking about what it's really like to build a business with your spouse, how executive support is evolving, and to grow, what leaders need to grow sustainably without burning out. If you're a founder feeling stretched thin or a leader looking for a smarter way to scale, this episode is definitely for you. Let's dive in. Ethan, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. Ethan Bull: Thanks for having me guys. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, we appreciate it. Well, let's kind of start at the beginning. know, how did the two of you come up with the idea to start pro assisting and what was going on in your life that made you kind of decide this was the thing to do? Ethan Bull: Well, business started based on our experience. And we lived in New York City 20 years. We were both high level executive assistants. And when we say that we were supporting principals, most likely the CEO or the COO of a large organization. And we were their business partner, chief of staff, project manager, assistant, scheduler, if you will, and personal assistant. So in seats, you really provide comprehensive of support with the overarching goal of giving back time. Then you fast forward to us having our second son ⁓ of jumping back into the nanny game in New York City, we decided to quit our job, our condo and do something I swore I'd never do, which is move back home. And am actually sitting a block away from the house I grew up in that my mom still lives in half the year. And so when you your environment from New York City and the experience that we had and the ⁓ compensation we were making and we move to a totally different socioeconomic area. You know, I was fortunate enough to land a role that was commensurate with my experience. Stephanie was stay at home mom. And in 2017, a friend of ours reached out and said, hey, I have this client. She's a Fortune 100 consultant. She travels the world. She needs great support. She doesn't care where you are. And she doesn't need full time. Are you interested? And that was in 2017. And it kind Kelly Sundsvold: you Ethan Bull: down this path of taking a look at virtual slash remote support space in the United States, as well as what was happening abroad, ⁓ know, overseas virtual assistance. And we kept running into the same business model of Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: you know, US based virtual assistant companies charging 60 bucks an hour and paying their assistant 18 or $20 an hour and partnering them with a large number of clients, meaning one assistant could support eight, 10, 12 clients a month. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: our was kind of screaming at us and saying, that's not, that doesn't work in terms of what providing great support looks like. comprehensive support at the level we're used to. And we kept seeing that over and over again. So there's this gap between where the virtual assistant spaces ⁓ and a time assistant. And so ⁓ we decided I left Rochester regional health to take a leap and start pro assisting, which we launched in 2018 to fill that gap. Kelly Sundsvold: That's, that's really great. You know, sometimes that we talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, we're entrepreneurs, obviously ourselves too, that jump. Whoa, that can be scary. but you know, more often than not, you either learn a lesson or you're, ⁓ you from, you know, lessons. ⁓ So you from being like a high level EA, to running a company that trains and ⁓ provides EAs. what's hardest shift going from. Shawn Sundsvold: Very cool. Kelly Sundsvold: actually being part of the EA execution sort of job to the president and business of a company that provides EA services. Ethan Bull: It was gradual. So we started our business. to fill ourselves up with clients. I took on three clients, Stephanie took on three clients, and then the clients kept coming we found assistants that agreed with how we view the role to partner with those clients. So ⁓ was a very gradual process of moving, know, Stephanie still supports clients today. ⁓ passed off my last client November of 2024. So it's just been a little bit over a year. that I've been just solely running the business. So it was gradual, but... A lot of the aspects of being a great executive assistant, frankly, come down to just figuring it out, quote unquote, if you don't know it. so quarterly taxes or forming an LLC or getting a DBA under that LLC or, you know, ⁓ does it look like to track expenses? What does it look like to track, clients and assistants and what's the marketing funnel for how do we get those people to Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: some come look at us and so ⁓ was gradual but yet the a lot of times sometimes executive assistants sell themselves short in terms of how resourceful they are and how much they can quote-unquote just figure it out and that it was gradual it gave us the time to do that. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know like just ⁓ of going along that line, like hiring an EA, especially for a founder or a leader who's ⁓ hiring one for the first time, right? It can feel overwhelming. There's, all the questions of, you know, what should I have this person do? How much of my business are they going to see? How much of that sensitive information are they going to be dealing with? I know like we kind of went through that when we hired our first EA of like, ⁓ my gosh, they're going to see my books. ⁓ my gosh, they're going to see my emails, ⁓ know, all these things that you've held really, really tight as a founder, right? how do you guys help leaders through that conversation and getting to kind of learn to trust and partner with that EA. Ethan Bull: you a gradual process. Seeing the books, I don't if that's ⁓ necessary. And is a gradual process. You really need to create that know, like and trust foundation. Initially, that being said, we also encourage clients who've never partnered with an assistant. You do have to kind of grasp hands and jump off the cliff from a trust perspective. We do everything we can from our perspective to Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: put a client at ease around information security, confidential information, personal information. But frankly, for a high level executive assistant, that's a cornerstone of the role. It's kind of like the hypocritical or, you know, attorney client privilege. There's no legal standing around that, but high level EAs do that. And the thing with us is that We charge based on resources we pass more than 75 % of incoming retainers to us directly to the assistant. What that allows is it allows us to get high level talent who've done this for years or decades and would command six figure salaries ⁓ as level EAs in major metropolitan areas. And that kind of confidentiality and ⁓ onboarding a new client who's never had an assistant comes kind of like batteries included. ⁓ And so not to say that it can't be nerve wracking and biggest... Shawn Sundsvold: Okay. Ethan Bull: The biggest hurdles that we can, that we encounter is the quote unquote, I can do it faster myself mentality where they're not thinking of, if I actually train my EA how to do this, I never have to do it again. And that time I'm pounds month after month, year after year. But the other one is the, you know, what information can I give them and what does this look like? And in those situations, we're looking at industry specific. Are you dealing with finance or the clients, high net worth individuals, very sensitive information? ⁓ we dealing with ⁓ non-executive board director of a publicly traded company? So we're making that the assistant isn't directly invested in that company. and that that assistant isn't in that executive that board members email so they would not be exposed to potentially sensitive information that could be used in a an insider training trading kind of situation so is kind of situation to situation specific ⁓ but those are some of the challenges and and ⁓ no doubt about it and where Shawn Sundsvold: Mm. Ethan Bull: partnering with an executive assistant in that first two to four weeks, you really wanna just work on the small stuff and get that again, those things right to where that sense of no like and trust is really built. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. curious, know, as you as you're, don't how to say it, but like marrying a ⁓ leader and an EA together, what is that? I know you kind of talked about a little bit there, but what is that first month look like of of, know, how do you guys have like a process that helps build that trust to help kind of the two together? Ethan Bull: We use a new client questionnaire, which is used to cut down the learning curve on all of the little questions that go back and forth. You know, what's the makeup of your family? Where do you like to sit on the airplane? What time do you want to get to the airport? What do you want your calendar to look like? What times of day do you perform best? What is non-negotiable on your calendar? Who are the VIPs in your life? We're trying to extract all that information really in the first and second call onboarding call. But during that process. It's a dimmer switch onboarding and work and not the flick of a switch. So even on your first onboarding call, you could be going through your calendar with your new assistant and you could be like, I forgot to change that eye appointment and I got to meet with that client. And the assistant should be saying, well, ⁓ what's name of the doctor? Okay. Is it in your contacts? Okay. I will move it. When do you like, when would you like to have it? If, and if they can't, how should I Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: think about moving that that would fall within your parameters so I don't have to come back and forth and check and check and check to get that time and and so right there you're onboarding but you're also starting work and that's what we find and it's it's again if you're dealing with someone who's done this a lot from the assistant side it can happen very well Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: they have. done this before, so you should lean into that. But also, we deal with a lot of clients who have long histories of working with executive assistants. They know what they want. They've done this. They know what they want to look and feel like. I do, you it's one of the reasons we wrote our book, you know, as an instruction manual for how to leverage your assistant. But there are, ⁓ we run into clients, most likely past clients, who can't give up Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Ethan Bull: the rains who are know just you know if if a word is off in an email it's going to look poorly on me or or Kelly Sundsvold: Yep. Ethan Bull: or, you know, I've got to see everything or, you know, it, it kind of defeats the purpose. And that's okay. As long as they're running a business that can sustain that. And they don't, they like it where it is. And they're not looking to two X four X eight X their business. So again, it comes in all different shapes and sizes. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. And it's finding the right personality. know, our EA, my God, I don't know where we'd be if we didn't have her. She's fantastic. And, you know, that building of trust ⁓ is just so So I know your husband wife team, you mentioned your wife earlier in this conversation. Obviously, we're a husband wife team as well. And ⁓ we get, you know, asked a lot like, well, how is it difficult working? with your spouse and we say, well, we've been married for what? This is gonna be 22 years. We've been married for 22 years and it takes a little bit to get there. It's not like if we were to do this 10 years ago, we wouldn't be where we are. So what is one surprising adjustment that you had going from being married to being co-founders together? Ethan Bull: Well, there's an interesting thing in terms of even way before we started the business. And I think it kind of shaped our relationship in a certain way. we were in New York City and I was working at an ad agency, for the chief operating officer and I was director of admin services, service our team of about 12 assistants. Stephanie was supporting the CEO of a hedge fund and roles, technically both executive assistants, but she was making about four times the amount of compensation that I was making. And so her compensation and work history is what allowed us to get our mortgage on our condo. And Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Wow. Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. Ethan Bull: We closed right in June of 08 and then Lehman crashed in September of 08 and the price decreased by 50%. And that compensation of Stephanie's was a lot based on bonus. So there was stress there. And I had to... Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: deal with my ego and, and that I wanted to be able to wear jeans and a baseball hat to work and a t-shirt and work in a cool ad agency where she had to get dressed to the nines every day and be there at seven 30 and get home at seven 30. ⁓ understanding that there's two, there's trade-offs to the two different kinds of roles, but having those conversations about finances and being on the same page, it's the advice we give to ⁓ ⁓ newlyweds or newly engaged people that meet us and they're like, ⁓ you guys look so happy and how do you do it? And it's all like, you know, we on the same, it's not sexy, but we on the same page financially. and in terms of, transitioning that to business owners, Kelly Sundsvold: Yep. Ethan Bull: That really set a strong foundation, but also both pros at being EAs. So ⁓ don't need to tell her how to do her job and she doesn't need to tell me how to do mine. And the thing is, that ⁓ more of a lifestyle business and finding clients to work with us, I had my three clients and she had her three clients. They didn't cross, you know. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: It was made, the decision was made that she would keep her three clients and I would transition off over a long period of time. And I'm the entrepreneur. I'm the one with the ideas. She's the one who puts the guard rails on. But in terms of us running this business, she's much more on the strategic side and the advisory side. And I'm much more in the weeds in terms of. managing our pool of assistant partners and having every sales conversation, dealing with disgruntled clients. That's all on me. ⁓ But her and her serving her clients and acting as that strategic soundboard for me is the amazing foundation of our business that gives us comfort. So. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: We're in a situation where we don't have to cross paths during the day. I'm in my desk in my office. She flutters around the house and has different spots where she works and she goes to the coffee shop and whatnot. And then we come back and either go on a date night or even at dinner when she, where either of us are making dinner or whatnot and have a conversation about how the day went or whatnot. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: Or if I have to surface up any questions or thoughts like, we need to adjust here and do this. What do you think? So it's it's kind of a very symbiotic relationship, but I would really pinpoint it back to having to deal with those financial issues really at the start of our marriage. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, those money conversations are so important because it's like, know, you can love somebody all you want, but if you can't afford to live, like there's a big problem, right? Like not going to get you to pay your mortgage, you know? Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: So I, you know, kind of on that line and you briefly touched on it there and talking about kind of how your rhythm is in the evenings and things like that. But, know, as you guys have grown your business, what like boundaries or, you know, rhythms have you guys create, have you and Stephanie created between the two of you to protect your personal, personal relationship from being like an all business, all the time type of thing. Ethan Bull: In the first couple years of the business, she would have to say when we were on date night, okay, no more talking about business. ⁓ That's not really an issue much anymore. We've gotten into a good groove. But the thing about being a great executive assistant, and this is in both of our bloods, is that we could get a text at 813 in the evening when we're on date night. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: It's not out of the ordinary. So we don't get buffered or buffed around by that kind of stuff much. we both have... We both have deep empathy for each other and what we do our roles. So she understands that if I get, you know, if I have a bad sales call or something or ⁓ happens in the business or that can weigh on me. And I know that, you know, I mean, frankly, ⁓ of my clients, we passed to Stephanie ⁓ even in that client specifically, she can say three words to me. And I know exactly what she's dealing with with that client. Not in a bad way, just in a, all right, here we go. We're jumping in. So in the beginning, in the first few years when the financial pressure was more. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: and the worry that it was all going to just go away, that inherent stress that I was not expecting of being a business owner and moving from a W-2 employee to a business owner, that five years, it crept up and we're in our eighth year now, so it's getting smoother. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, it's mean, it's hard. You work together and, know, it sounds like you and Stephanie have really worked those. Those are things that ⁓ I Sean and I, have very good communication as far as like ⁓ we've that no more work tonight or ⁓ or we pause this until tomorrow? ⁓ You and there's there's respect there and there's understanding because it goes both ways. There's some days that, you know, he's really maxed out. Shawn Sundsvold: That's awesome. Yes. Kelly Sundsvold: Or there's some days I'm really maxed out or tired or have a headache or something, you know, like there's, there's a slew of things. ⁓ and you know, I know all of a this call have kids too, and there's, there's good stuff that come up. And so, you know, finding that time for your spouse, you know, can be, ⁓ a really beautiful thing because like, you know, we a meeting right before this and we walked, you know, I stepped out, we had 10 minutes between that and this. and being able to have that quick, like, Hey, Did you know XYZ? like, you know, it was something more relational. And, ⁓ you having those moments throughout the day is actually really nice and being able to be have some face time with your spouse. Kind of shifting gears a little bit and ⁓ talking about the that the two of you co-authored. ⁓ It's titled The Workweek, A High Performer's Guide to Leveraging Your EA. we all have the same 24 hours in a day, right? Tell us what was your inspiration for the book and how can leaders who are utilizing the support of an EA, you know, what would they find out of this book? Ethan Bull: Yeah, I mean, it actually was a published book. So we, you can get it in hard copy or ⁓ I would point, we can, ⁓ you could something in the show notes where ⁓ you can up ⁓ for our list and you can get access to either the audio book or the PDF version for free. ⁓ But the Kelly Sundsvold: effect. Ethan Bull: purpose of writing the book was to kind of create an instruction manual for ⁓ ⁓ have an assistant and don't feel like they're getting the most out of them, or an executive or principal who has never used an assistant and wants an instruction manual. But we also coach EAs to use the book as ⁓ of pillar in their conversation with their principal around I can support you at this level and you are not meeting me there at the moment. So it is a two-way street and can open a conversation, but really it was about codifying how Stephanie and I view great support. And that is based on our... Kelly Sundsvold: you Ethan Bull: it's almost 50 years of experience combined. So a lot of personal anecdotes and stories in the book, whether it's me in the first few pages running to get strawberry jam for Nastasia Kinski when we were making the movie, Town and Country ⁓ at 4 a.m. or it's Stephanie dealing with a, ⁓ you know, high-powered situation when you're dealing with millions or of millions of dollars and project managing the build of a $50 million mansion on the coast of Connecticut and everything in between. So ⁓ we it would good for our ⁓ prospective clients who've never had an assistant or were looking to partner with a great assistant and how they could do that. And yet we've also found other ways to leverage that book, as I said, by pointing EAs to it specifically as well. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, one of the things that you mentioned in that book is talking about your EA superpowers, right? I'd love you to maybe dive into that just a little bit more about understanding like, you know, how as leaders we can really those EA's Ethan Bull: Yeah. I superpowers. mean, I've had people on sales calls, ⁓ potential clients say, look, I just want my pepper pots from Ironman, you know, that human back at the office who knows all and, ⁓ ⁓ thinking four steps ahead and, you know, can your lifesaver ⁓ and can feel that way, but it takes that relationship, it takes time, and it takes context from the principal to the assistant that time period to get to that spot. It's not magic, but a good EA is usually a type A personality who's pretty buttoned up and through Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: repetition and learns through the emotional intelligence that they use to discern what the principal likes, what they don't like, what they want versus what they need. And then also having the open lines of communication, you know, It takes time and then, and then when it happens, it feels like magic. It feels like a superpower, but it's actually just doing the work to get there. ⁓ so if you can identify a great EA and, and, and EA who can think like that, sure to trust them. Be sure to provide the context, even though it may take a couple minutes longer. be sure to include them on emails that you may think they, they Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: don't need to know about. But by doing that, you're giving them more context that may help them down the road. But you're also signaling to people outside of the sphere of the two of you, this is an important person for me. They're privy to this information, lean into this. So it's a combination of all that. We use the superhero analogy or the clairvoyant, you know, mind reading three steps ahead, look around corners. as ⁓ but it's really about putting in the work beforehand rather than expecting that right out of the gate. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. I mean if we all had Tony Stark's assistant, I'd be curious what it was like ⁓ Tony was ⁓ training her. What's one thing that you wish that every business owner would understand about time, energy, and the power of support? It really like just sums up everything we've just talked about. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: It's just about letting the assistant in and giving them the context they need that may feel like it's overkill, but will, will create that relationship down the road where you have a shorthand where, you know, in seven minutes, you're able to take your to-do list of 13 things down to two. And those other 11 things the assistant is often doing on your behalf, moving the ball forward. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Ethan Bull: Can you take a stab at it? Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Ethan Bull: a whole ⁓ whole all the context that happened around that first deck Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: is inherently a subordinate in that relationship. That being said, the good principles can be self-deprecating and rise their assistant up to be that peer level, even when they're not, but they can give them the feeling as if they are a peer, and that opens lines of communication, both the good and the Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: And there we also hear a lot from clients who say, look, I want my assistant to tell me what to do. I want them to push me. And I say, time out. Time out. They're a subordinate relationship. They're not going to do that until you've encouraged them enough to do that in a very authentic way. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: And if you don't, you're not going to get that. Because a lot of times people say something that they think they want, but when they get it, they don't actually want it. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I think that's really just that elevation. And it reminds me so much of, I think I told you this when we had our first conversation, my dad was an entrepreneur, had his own business his executive assistant. Like to this day, like I remember that relationship and how like you talked about almost an equal, but like, you know, appear ⁓ literally everything went through my dad's assistant, Nan, like ⁓ ⁓ and she was just ⁓ in how. ⁓ Ethan Bull: Yeah. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Um, you know, how much she was able to handle and in what she could do and just, you know, just all the things that she was as far as like how it helped my dad be able to manage his business. So as you, you know, as you're talking about this, I'm having lots of fond memories of like that relationship that my dad had with his assistant. And I'm sure that's kind of the same thing you strive for in, know, in how you want your principles and EAs to work together. Ethan Bull: Yeah, totally. And that goes back to my stepfather who was an attorney and ran his own law office. And whenever he had a new client come in, he would have his, he called them back then a secretary. And, you know, he'd bring his secretary in and he'd tell the client, you need to talk to Sheila here. She's the one. She's going to know your court date. She's going to know the status of filing. She's going to know what we're waiting on from experts. She's going to know all that information. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Ethan Bull: you don't really need to talk to me, but I'm always here and then if you do need to talk to me and she discerns that you do need to talk to me, she's gonna get you get us connected as soon as possible. But you're much better off going to her first and asking your questions because frankly she's gonna know more about your case than I am in any given moment. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I love that. I love that. So kind of looking at 2026 and moving forward as we wrap up our conversation today, ⁓ are some things that you guys are gonna be doing in 2026 that are gonna kind of help you be successful and what some of the goals you have for this year? Ethan Bull: Consistency, you know, keep doing what we're doing. From a business perspective, it's really about making sure that our churn, that we're doing everything we can to meet the client where they are and decrease any churn or any potential client It happens from a business perspective where a business ⁓ declines and then need to ⁓ tighten up their sheet. And sometimes that includes getting rid of their EA, totally understandable. ⁓ instances, it's really about how good are we at the onboarding process at the aligning on expectations. So that's one thing. ⁓ I think it's an exciting. Well, it's a stressful and exciting time for business services in general. I think that artificial intelligence obviously is playing a role. It's playing a role just in the mentality of the boards and the C suites of companies. the expectation is I need to decrease operational expenses to, ⁓ know, catch up with my competitors. So let's infuse the company with AI. And I Silicon Valley over the last especially year has been very good at telling a story that I don't think in a lot of instances meets reality when it to artificial intelligence, but it's getting closer. And so I think that the rise of fractures Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: Whether you're talking about fractional C-suite or fractional business service providers, I think really can allow those small and medium sized businesses to punch above their weight and cover a much wider swath of their business needs and operational needs with decreasing operational expenses, but leaning into the fractional and not hiring full-time employees. And so there's a lot of strategic decision-making, I think, Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Ethan Bull: that can happen in that space. And as fractional executive assistants, see being a bridge from ⁓ full-time executive assistant who was sitting in the office next door ⁓ when have chips implanted in our brains and we wake up and we already know what we have to do and everything's already determined. There's a big long bridge there and I think we're entering that time. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. So how can people get in touch with you? Obviously you have your book, ⁓ have ⁓ lot going on. How can people get in touch with you? Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Ethan Bull: Our website is proassisting.com. P-R-O-A-S-S-I-S-T-I-N-G.com. And then I'm, I'm very active on LinkedIn, Ethan Bull on LinkedIn. yeah, you can check out, both mine and ⁓ Stephanie's to see our history, but then also find pro assisting and yeah, ⁓ we, we love helping, ⁓ clients and business leaders get time back. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. And, you know, just as we wrap up, I think that's so important. Like time is such a valuable resource, right? ⁓ often trade time for money, right? That's the conversation. But, know, the more time we are able to kind of have control of, I think that's really where autonomy sits, right? And freedom sits. So I ⁓ love you kind of wrap that up. So, Ethan, thank so much for being on the show today. Loved having the conversation. And, you know, forward to talking to you again in the future. Thank you. Ethan Bull: Yeah. It's been great. Thanks so much.