Latest / Thinking Class / #012 - Dr. Rakib Ehsan: Why Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Policies Do More Harm Than Good

Transcript

#012 - Dr. Rakib Ehsan: Why Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Policies Do More Harm Than Good · Thinking Class

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everybody, welcome to Thinking Class.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm speaking with Dr.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Rakhib Esan.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Rakib is a research analyst and writer, specialising in matters of social cohesion, race relations, and public security, and it's safe to say he has established himself as a prominent British authority on matters of racial identity and social integration.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: He is the author of the book Beyond Grievance, What the Left Gets Wrong About Ethnic Minorities, and Rakhib spent his academic life at Royal Holloway in London, holding a PhD in political science, in which he investigated the impact of social integration on the public attitudes of British non-white ethnic minorities.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Rakib has produced work for the Henry Jackson Society, the Centre for Social Justice, and think tanks such as Policy Exchange, Running Mead Trust, and Intergenerational Foundation.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Currently a columnist at Spike and a regular contributor for Mail Plus and The Telegraph, Rakib has also written for The Independent, The Jewish Chronicle, and Unheard.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: He is also a regular guest on GB News and Talk TV.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: We spoke about the disintegrative effect of DEI policies, the influence of US race relations on British politics, how to balance individualism, communitarianism, and the family, national law and order post-October the 7th, and how to create a civic model of national identity.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed this conversation as much as I thought I would when I invited Rakib on.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Rakib is very clear on what he sees as the problems facing British society, and I can't wait to speak to him again.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show, classmates.
• 1:41
  unknown: Dr.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Rakhi Bassan, welcome to Thinking Class.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for joining me.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: John, thank you for having me.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's an absolute pleasure.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I funnily enough, I really wanted to get you onto the podcast from the moment that I decided to start a podcast, which was on my way back from a holiday uh from the Isles of Lewis and Harris and the far northwest of Scotland, the Alpha Hepidrides is my partner.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we were listening to you on the trigonometry podcast, where you were talking about your book, Beyond Grievance, what the left gets wrong about ethnic minorities.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you can even take some credit for me feeling compelled that I wanted to start a podcast to start talking about these big issues.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh thank you for the inspiration on that front.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're going to talk a bit more about your book in in certain details, but um thinking class as a podcast, the concept is about the thinking classes, the knowledge classes, those of us who have our hands on the levers of um powerful institutions, both in public and private settings, and trying to help us understand how much that elites matter, ideas matter for creating um the society in which we live in, the values that propagate through it.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um I just know there's so much from your book as a and you as your background as a social cohesion researcher that I think we can bring to bear on this.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um let's begin with the things that uh the left liberals get wrong about ethnic minorities, um, and those in the white racial category as well, because I know you've got opinions on those.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say about that, Ricky?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I think that one of the main motivations behind authoring Beyond Grievance was the fact that there are liberal left narratives surrounding the life of ethnic and racial minorities in the UK, which are not rooted in reality.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, let's be absolutely clear.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's uh far too much doom and gloom.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I take to task what I consider to be the vilification of Britain's record on race relations and equality of opportunity.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not to say that improvements can't be made.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they certainly can.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that we'll discuss what I consider to be those improvements which could be made uh over the course of our conversation.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: But we should take pride in the fact that for all our flaws, uh, we are arguably the most successful example of a multi-ethnic uh democracy in the advanced world.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that should actually be a source of national pride.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, when you dig deep into the data over a range of social and economic metrics, you now have certain ethnic and racial minorities who are outperforming the white British mainstream.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I suspect that the reason why the liberal left wouldn't want to celebrate those forms of ethnic minority success is because it would undercut and indeed undermine their precious white privilege theories, which I certainly criticize in the book.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a that's a uh very succinct take on it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those theories have becoming under some pressure of late.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I know diversity, equity, and inclusion as a concept in particular has been in the news.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say a couple of things have triggered that, or at least the main thing that has triggered that, and I'm sure it may emerge as a theme throughout the conversation.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: October the 7th, the terror attacks in Israel by Hamas.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in America, one of the biggest focuses were on rising um anti-Semitic attacks on campus.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there were these well-publicised congressional hearings which invited uh or uh required the presidents of Harvard, Penn, and MIT to come along and tell the Congress what they were doing in response to these rising uh intimidating attacks on Jewish people and Jewish students.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um effectively how DEI as a concept ended up becoming so in the spotlight and and under attack, as its proponents would say, is because it brought to light um a disparity between how it was previously applied and then how it was being applied in this case.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: How it's previously applied was, um, or at least it would say its underlying premise was um we are all about equality and justice for all, regardless of um ethnic minority status and racial category and uh religion.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, however, white people are considered to have a particular privilege and um and thus we ought to create programs that benefits ethnic minorities.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yet when the Jewish question came into account, people realized that they weren't included within this, and um, and uh there was nothing actually being done on campus to stop these attacks.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's yeah that this was seen as a a big um uh uh rank hypocrisy in some ways because um the responses were, well, we'll only act when it depends on the context.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the context ended up being wheeled out that it was if it turned into an actual attack rather than um being just words, and yet this was the same uh set of organizations that have done well to promote the ideas of microaggressions and how words can be violence, and now they're saying that it doesn't apply in this case.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you you wrote in your book that DEI is is doomed to fail unless it becomes truly inclusive.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by that?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think there's a number of problems with uh DEI policy um that I've come across.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: It certainly doesn't promote diversity at all.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I really question why diversity is in there to begin with.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the the term equity, I I I'm not a big fan of it at all.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we should be promoting equality of opportunity, and I think one of the main issues with DEI is that I don't think it actually promotes equality of opportunity at all.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is ultimately more about a desire for preferential treatment, which is something that I couldn't possibly agree with.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is decidedly anti uh anti-merit.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't find it to be particularly inclusive, uh, if if truth be told.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that is in some cases it's racially exclusionary.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that in my view, its implications are quite often anti-white, uh, if if I'm being completely honest.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'll give you an example.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, recently we saw the race-related scandal within the RAF, uh, where you had recruitment officers referring to useless white male pilots, which is quite extraordinary.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right dealers, in my view, racist, um sexist as well.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, and an ageist, of course.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were there were cases where I think there was uh that there was uh uh various forms of age-related um discrimination to.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I I I think for me, if you're going to have a successful economy, and indeed you want to have a thriving society, you can't go down the DEI road, this unholy trinity uh that I call it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, really, what we need to do, and listen, I I I have no problems at all with particular organizations and institutions engaging with uh communities that may not be well represented um within them.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So those positive forms of outreach.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we also have to understand that certain groups just gravitate towards particular professions for a variety of reasons.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: It could be down to family heritage, um, for example.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to understand how cultural values and cultural preferences impact on occupational choices.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we should be very clear about that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but but one thing I couldn't possibly support, for example, racial quotas, uh, decidedly anti-merit.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that actually would undermine the authority of very talented um ethnic minority people in high positions.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you introduce these racial quotas, then their authority is undermined because those working um below them in a particular organization or institution will think that they're ultimately there on the grounds of their racial identity.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to really make sure that that kind of dynamic doesn't exist.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the emphasis needs to be on equality of opportunity, certainly not the equalization of outcomes, which I think is uh, in my view, uh a gross form of state intervention, then we shouldn't go down that road at all.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of interesting points that you can pick on there um is that there's there seems to be, I suppose there's the thrust of this, people who are proponents would say it's well-intentioned.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um however um I I think people become blinded to the um the impact on social cohesion, i.e.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: the second order consequences from dividing people up by um ethnicity, and then as you've described, um uh apportioning uh or or reassigning privilege as they see it in a way that fits the the worldview that they want to bring into being.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um it it it seem it seems remarkable that people would present um it as an apolitical um uh policy um and then um complain or at least be alarmed when there is some kind of pushback, whereas you've described um people are feeling like they're being excluded from this new this new system.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you think DEI um uh has a more disintegrative effect on social cohesion, which is which flies in the face of its idea of trying to bring everyone together?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, absolutely.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that at the heart of British social cohesion has to be equality of opportunity.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think DEI, um the the the policies that I've come across in the British context work against that, uh in my view.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I've I believe that when you're looking at groups in terms of you know how they engage with institutions and organizations, I I think that that that that's a reasonable way forwards.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: But as I said previously, um when you're looking at the UK uh for all its flaws, in terms of anti-discrimination protections, for example, on the grounds of race, ethnicity, and religion, uh the UK comfortably outperforms a string of major EU member states.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, and Italy, also ranks very highly when it comes to religious freedom.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, we have to make sure that religious freedom is not exploited by religious tribalists who want to control how the public sphere is governed.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a very important point to make.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't quite understand why there is such a push, such a strong emphasis on improving racial equality in one of the most successful multiracial democracies on earth.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because much of this politics is being imported from the United States, which is a relatively youthful experiment, which is struggling to get to grips with the legacy of slavery and segregation.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have a very different national history and context here in the UK, which is why US style race politics simply doesn't work in the British context.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to have a wholesome anti-racist politics in the UK, it has to be rooted in reality, it has to be firmly based in equality of opportunity, and it has to do away with slavish obsessions with what is going on across the pond.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: What what prospects do you see of us um not catching the cold when America sneezes?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we'll I mean we've caught the cold.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely um for sure.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but but I think that what's very I think more people are waking up to much of this um er race obsessive nonsense um that's being imported from the United States.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think they started waking up when they saw British BLM protesters chanting, don't shoot at British police officers who are largely unarmed and support that model of policing uh in the UK.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the the UK the US has its problems.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: We have our own problems, but the idea that the problems surrounding race are somewhat shared is something that I don't I don't agree with at all.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think more generally, when we're looking at racial and ethnic disparities, and this is that this also applies in the United States, uh, we need to look more at family structure.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, what the what the cult what are the cultural values which are promoted in particular households?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, what what are the kinds of family structures um which are most stable and where do they feature the most?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: In which ethnic and racial groups do they feature the most?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think community culture comes into it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: To what extent is a young person um rooted in their local community?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have that sense of belonging and rootedness?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do other people in their community care about their progress and advancement in life?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the kind of factors I think we really need to be focusing on when we look at what shapes life chances in modern Britain.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think at the moment there is an over-emphasis, an overfocus on protected characteristics such as race.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: That point about community you you make um throughout your book, and actually you do so often in a way to um counter the paternalistic impulses of um proponents of policies like DEI.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a passage in the book which I remember uh underlining, uh, which was you uh writing uh not not mincing your words at all uh in response to something Jeremy Corbyn said at a rally, um, where uh he suggested that only the Labour Party could unlock the potential of ethnic minorities to which you wrote, and I quote, it takes a certain type of arrogance, a grossly inflated sense of importance to deliver such a hyper-paternalistic statement.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Irrespective of who is governing the country, there are intelligent, hardworking, and resilient ethnic minority people across Britain who are perfectly able to utilize their abilities and smarts to move ahead in life without the assistance of the supposedly talent-unlocking Jeremy Corbyn.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would trust the ethnic minority educators, grandparents, community elders, dedicated educators, and youth outreach workers, well before the likes of him and much of the opposition Labour Party when it comes to facilitating youth for personal development.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that's a statement which I think um uh most small c conservatives, uh anyone uh would would um uh resonate with and actually would hope of more of that idea of the little platoons, you know, communities can figure these things out themselves if you just if you if you'd give them the space to instead of trying to impose things from the top.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you expect to see if the Labour Party is able to form a government at the next election?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you still expect to see more paternalism or or or will there be more community uh focus and and engagement and allowing them to run with it?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to think that there's the potential for more communitarian thinking um in the Labour Party under Sakir Starmer.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is much of the party continues to be enthralled to racial identity politics.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I think there's still, in my view, there's a lack of focus on uh factors such as family structure and community culture when looking at racial and ethnic disparities.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Labour has this big idea of introducing a new Race Equality Act.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh heaven knows why that this is their big idea.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because as I said, I think Britain has made significant progress when it comes to racial equality.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, improvements can be made, um, of course.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think in policing, I think there's certain communities which are not particularly trusting of the police.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: We should work more in terms of building or rather rebuilding those police community relations.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I also talk about in the book, John, about uh name-based discrimination in the labor market, where you have these uh CV-based experiments where you have resumes uh with very similar levels of uh academic achievement, uh, work experience and skill sets.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but English-sounding names tend to fare better than culturally distant names.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that there's definitely um progress to be made when it comes to that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've I've argued for the wider rollout of name-blind application processes across a variety of sectors uh in the UK.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that what what the real issue that we have in the UK, in my opinion, is family breakdown, family instability.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that what we really need is some sort of Family Security Act, where there's a political commitment to looking at various problems in British society, whether it's employment uh or housing, looking at that through a family-oriented lens.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, I'm very supportive of the idea of more family-friendly protections for British parents who are in work.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that you know, in the wider European context, I think we fare quite poorly when it comes to parental rights, especially surrounding a parental leave when a newborn arrives.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's right at all.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I I would have liked to have gone more in that direction.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: How do we best support communities who are most at risk of family breakdown?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think this is something I touched upon in the book that I don't think we're going to see significant improvements in terms of youth development in Black Caribbean heritage communities until we really get to grips with cultural issues surrounding fatherlessness.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll I'll just give you some um statistics here.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um 2019 Office of National Statistics, uh, when you look at children um aged up to the age of 16, uh I believe, um, the percentage of Black Caribbean origin children living in lone parent households is 63%.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now that drops all the way down to 6% for their Indian heritage peers.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you don't think that that doesn't feed into why certain ethnic groups are more successful than others, especially when it comes to education and employment, then quite frankly, you're kidding yourself.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I've spent a lot of time in the corporate world.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And as you can imagine, the corporate world is uh is quite a uh fervent supporter of uh establishing DEI policies.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when you go working on those, you can often find that people want to look at those data outputs, but specifically with regards to who is the most economically deprived.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's about as far as they go.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: They don't really want to look much further.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's just right, okay, there's some economic deprivation going on over here, so let's just immediately um just looking at the raw group level data, um, decide to push things in that direction.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And there's none of the um the that the that more uh intricate, nuanced approach that you've just uh explained, which is right, let's get underneath the the group the group status and go what's going on within that group and all the various things that might be contributing to it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, where's the where's the um where's the beginning of that, where's the mean, where's the where's the end of it, and uh have a more targeted approach.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and clearly policies will never be successful unless you can actually target it to the place that they're they're most needed.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder when I feel like the Overton window on um lots of the topics you talked about today has started to shift where you know things can be um it can have some critical analysis applied to them out in the open now but the but topics that you've just raised like fatherlessness uh in certain ethnic minorities and those uh and how that might impact outcomes, that doesn't quite seem to be there yet.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: What what prospect do you see?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well I suppose before we get into the prospect, is why do you think people don't want to breach that?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and and what prospect do you see of that happening and and how do you do it in a in a sensitive way so as not to um trample over people's um uh backgrounds ultimately?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I mean it's something I mentioned in the book that I'm not interested in the sp stigmatization of single mothers.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, who are truly targeting the book are feckless fathers who don't take responsibility for their own offspring.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that the point I'm making is that certain family models are more strongly associated with positive youth developments.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to be honest about the data that two-parent households spearheaded by a married couple is the family model most strongly associated with positive youth outcomes surrounding the level of school attainment, cognitive development, uh, mental well-being, and then further down the line in life, labor market integration.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not to say that if you are born within such a family model that you are guaranteed to be a spectacular overachiever, uh, you may well end up being a grand failure because personal responsibility and individual initiative also comes into play.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, indeed, someone from a very dysfunctional, broken family background can go on to achieve quite remarkable things.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm also ultimately talking about is the powerfulness of particular associations.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's the key here.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't I've I've never wanted to deliberately offend anyone, especially with the book.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I tried to be as sensitive as possible.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: But you're but honesty is the key here.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and as you say, John, it was very important.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to deliver effective policy making, you have to be very honest about what the data is telling you.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's vitally important.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this because this is ultimately about the quality of governance um uh overall.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the key thing is we have these conversations in good faith, um, not to be deliberately offensive and provocative, but be ultimately of the view that we need to make sure that the data guides us towards effective and well-targeted policymaking.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and that that point you made earlier about how anyone can climb the ladder in theory.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: In practice, it isn't always the case that it's the same level of probability that's going to happen.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and and Rob Henderson, someone who's come to uh prominence of late, you know, very uh very popular Substack, and um he spent lots of time um writing, doing speeches on um what he calls the luxury uh belief class, um getting into human psychology.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um he's someone who was brought up in foster care uh in the United States, and uh he joined the military, then he left the military um as a veteran, then went to Yale and then Cambridge, PhD.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he he on one of his recent posts, he was writing about the the likelihood of someone like him even making it to that, to do all of those things to end up that credentials.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something like only six percent of foster kids within the United States, and I'm sure it's probably not too dissimilar over here, make it there, but it that's that's like you know, uh orders orders of magnitude lower than even being in um a single parent household.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but even that being in a single parent household is just way less of a chance than someone who's brought up in the types of families that you've talked about, which is what contributes most to um good good life outcomes and well-being and all of those things.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're absolutely right to say the devil's in the detail, and you know, we need we need to be honest, we need to act in good faith, because if people really want the things, like good intentions to map out into good outcomes, then it's the it's really the only way.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think the the the question you asked me, John, is well, why don't people talk about this enough?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I think it's much easier politics to blame the system as opposed to encouraging people to take responsibility.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and I believe that when it comes to much of the politics we're seeing among the liberal left, uh what's very interesting is that many people in the liberal left actually live conventionally socially conservative lifestyles.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: They were raised in traditional two-parent households, they went on to get married, have children within wedlock, yet then say, well, a variety of lifestyles are absolutely fine.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, successful families come in uh a variety of shapes, uh, forms, and sizes, without actually being honest about which family models are most strongly related to positive youth development.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they're hypocrites for doing that, actually, because what they're doing is promoting lifestyles that they they would never promote in their own personal lives.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a crying shame.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a bit like um managing to get to the safety of the castle and then pulling up the drawbridge behind you.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Dear classmate, John here.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't an advert, so you don't need to reach for the skip button.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you're enjoying the show, then show your support by liking, subscribing, and sharing on whichever platform you use to watch or listen to Thinking Class.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can find me in the show on YouTube at ThinkingClass.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can also subscribe to me on Substack, searching for the at Thinking Class handle, or by entering thinkingclass.substack.com in your browser, and you can receive reflections, blog series, and recommended reading to your inbox.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow me on X at ThinkingClasses.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening, thanks for sharing your support, and enjoy the rest of the show, pass mate.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh personal responsibility, that seems to be something that generally people bridle against.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I know it's a cornerstone of anyone who'd hold small C conservative values, I suppose.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh I speaking from personal experience as someone who, I mean, I don't really know where I stand on the political spectrum anymore because ultimately it's changed so much in the course of my life.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um true.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: But at some point I I I would have probably been in with the left liberal crowd.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: When I was younger, I was an early school lever, I did uh I had no A levels, I'd done um, I'd made some bad decisions and I was floundering in the first seven years of having left school, you know, low-paid jobs and really worried about my prospects.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember uh at one period um uh of of unemployment, it was the only period I'd I'd had in my life, um, where up until that point I'd definitely had this idea of the system being against me and that um the world's just rigged.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then a couple of months into this unemployment, I I don't know what happened, but I basically had a word with myself.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember this moment kind of skulking around as I was walking through the town I was living at the time and going, no one's gonna get you out of this but yourself.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to pull yourself up by your by by your bootstraps here.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I wouldn't necessarily say I had all of the support around me, but by then making that decision and then cultivating my environment around me and my interests and how I spent my time and all of those things um to get me out of that, it really just set off a snowball effect that um, you know, if someone had said um all those years ago that you would have managed to then trot out the life that you'd had between now and then, I would have gone just no way.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and but that's only because personal responsibility was so important.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: But no one had had that conversation with me, um, which isn't to say anything against my parents.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was long out of their house by this point.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it it it's it's it is absolutely important.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it the sense of um achievement it gives you, and the sense of um helping others as well who are first stepping out on the path to realize that there are things that you can do um if you make the the right decisions or focus your energies in the right places instead of just decrying your luck, which isn't to say that there isn't hard stuff going on out there that that like you know holds us back, but I think it's really important and it's a shame that personal responsibility isn't spoken about more enough.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, absolutely.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I I couldn't agree more, and it's something that I I think the Labour Party needs to better embrace the principle of personal responsibility.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there's it is it's very easy to blame the system um for your own personal failings as opposed to taking ownership of them, but ultimately taking ownership of your own failures can be quite liberating.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that's the argument that I'd make.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if you can take ownership of your failures, you can also take ownership of your successes um as well, if if you learn from them and and you're and you're honest with yourself.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that when we're looking at um politics more generally, uh the the the politics of responsibility um is quite weak, um, especially in our in our sort of mainstream British politics.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: People don't talk about it enough.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think many of the solutions um to people's lives, they have to find it within themselves and their own communities.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's the truth of it.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's it it sounded like John, when you had that awakening, you didn't have much social support around you.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you did make the point that you you had moved out of your um parents' home.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what I argue for, that if people are within communities who are interested in their progress and also how they're getting on with their lives, and that that can be that can be a huge benefit, especially if you have more honest, hard-nosed characters um within your own family and and your local community as well.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but for me, I I think the big argument that I make in the book is a lot of people say Rackie Miss sounds like you're against individualism because you talk a great deal about family and community.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, actually, I I I I think that all of these can mute, not only they mute, they can mutually coexist, um, they're mutually interdependent uh in a way.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that one of the reasons why I embrace personal responsibility, a dedicated work ethic, and I really value individual initiative is because I want to achieve a lot to make my family proud.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when people in the wider community ask me, Rakim, how are you getting on?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: That I have good news to tell them, and that I bring a great deal of positivity when it comes to representing my family name.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see there the individual, the family, and the community, how they nestle together uh very nicely in terms of inspiring people to uh make the most of their lives.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I'm very passionate about.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that is a lovely way of being able to integrate those three, uh, those three different aspects of what it means to be human because people can so often fall into individualism for individualism's sake or communitarianism for communitarianism's sake.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I absolutely see your point.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked a little bit about social activism and how that can often be the driver behind a lot of these well-meaning policies.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how do you think leaders can take a stand against uh social activists if they suspect that their agenda may cause more harm than good with whatever institution it is that they are heading up?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a leader of a political party, a mainstream political party, you ultimately have to do what is good for the country at large, not what your social activists within your own party want.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And especially uh in the Labour Party, that there are radical activists who, in my view, are not particularly interested in what the evidence is telling them.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're not interested in data, it's more about emotions and feelings.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you can't possibly run a country effectively just based on emotion and feeling.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not to say I want my political leaders to be utterly rational, technocratic beings.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want them to have some kind of political philosophy, but that philosophy ultimately at the heart of it has to be the general betterment of the country at large, socially, economically, and culturally.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of taking on the social activists that we're referring to, not just in the Labour Party, by the way, but also in the Conservative Party and many other political parties, uh is ultimately presenting the evidence and making evidence-driven arguments in the national interest, national and local interests uh as well.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because what might work in one part of the country might not work very well in another part of the country.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So understanding local context is key to effective policy making.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what's very clear for me is that race, in my view, is not an influential determinant when it comes to shaping life chances uh in modern Britain.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to see that kind of thinking in the social uh policy sphere.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: We were talking earlier about white privilege.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um of the most uh materially deprived neighborhoods in the country are concentrated in Blackpool.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there's not many ethnic minority children in Blackpool.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you that right now, um, with my background in uh demography.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what we really need to understand is how do we maximize the potential of people across the country?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that might require a degree of national coordination, but also understanding the local context.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, acting in the national interest.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's something that I think both sides of the political aisle can get so badly wrong, but for different reasons.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: So technocrats believe that they can manage a country based on metrics, targets, cold, uh cold-hearted rationalism, cold-hearted is the wrong word, but uh hard-headed rationalism.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but within those metrics and targets, whatever that has been set up as a good measure uh misses so much.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, whilst it's slightly off topic, but I think instructive is net zero goals 2050 brought into law, uh the Tartar Steel plant just being shut down in Port Talbot, 3,000 jobs gone.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there are some people who are going, excellent, we've reduced our carbon emissions footprint, at least in Britain, but really we've just outsourced it to China and in the meantime lost a whole bunch of jobs.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: But people are going, look at us, we're we're on course for net zero, which is you know a really terrible way of looking at things, in my opinion.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um then on the other side, you've got those who you're talking about who they um they they rely upon emotion.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose in some way they're drawn, as we all are as humans, we get drawn towards popular things.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um those those who generally make um decisions based on emotion can be drawn to these social activist ideas um which are propagated by single-issue NGOs or or interest groups, and because they're single issue, then they they have their blinkers on and they miss uh how it impacts the whole.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so I I don't I don't know what the route is back from either of those, but some somewhere we need to get back to the point of going, how is it that we try to govern for everyone instead of always governing for either a a particular a particular goal, um whether that's a group or kind of some other policy level.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, absolutely.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think that you you really hit the nail on the head in terms of talking about representing single interests.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you keep on doing that, the reality is that those interests may be contradictory or they can't be reconciled.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think in terms of um these arbitrary goals surrounding net zero, I think they're hugely um detrimental to the country's health and well-being.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about the uh the blast furnace clos uh blast furnace uh closures in Port Talbot in Wales, where there's an expected uh 3,000 jobs uh to be cut.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think it's absolutely remarkable because, in my view, the manufacturing of virgin steel is critical to a country's uh strategic national interest.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: In my view, Port Talbot, um the blast furnaces there should be a should be classified as a strategic national asset, which should be placed under public ownership.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and for me, I think rebuilding our traditional manufacturing base is critical to bolstering our military strength uh as well.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see there in a way a quite, you know, some people would say that's quite a left-wing economic policy, bringing it under public ownership, um, you know, that that form of economic protectionism, they actually, in my view, can play a part in our military self-sufficiency, which some people would say is quite a traditionally conservative concern.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think the key here, as you say, that you know, that those traditional the the traditional left-right political dichotomy, uh it's almost disintegrated uh in a way.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, what I promote and what I support is the politics of security and stability.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And those are two terms that I use a lot in beyond grievance.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Security and stability.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what we're gonna be hearing so much more of uh over the next 10 years.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can see the the political headwinds all all around us.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say the UK is a bit of an bit of an outlier and is going to continue on down um the route, probably out of apathy towards the Tory party rather than uh enthusiasm for the Labour Party.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: But eventually I think the security and stability thing will catch up.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: The the the points you make about the military um uh angle to the Port Talbot closure and having steel production on shore is is a good one.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, yes, you're right.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some people might say that's a left-wing idea to have public ownership, but surfing the internet, you can find um conservative voices saying it's probably not such a bad idea.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and what's what's remarkable again, and this shows the limits of technocracy, is it becomes so siloed in what it is focused on that net zero goals uh in this case are running counter to what our own defense secretary, what our own foreign secretary have been saying, which is we could be headed for war within the next 20 years, just like the Germans are saying with Russia, and and um, and yet, as you say, we're we're giving up the capability to be able to even produce anything on shore that might help us in that, you know.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully we're not down that route, but it just seems seems remarkable.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we're we're we're here, I suppose, talking about social cohesion.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I wanted to get your take on a few things.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's been a lot in the news recently, since October the 7th, and and uh much of it has been on multiculturalism.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you you write, uh Rakib, a lot about how we're a multi-ethnic society, and you've even said that we shouldn't focus on being a multicultural society because it highlights the differences rather than trying to get us all to act together.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, as someone who's both a social cohesion researcher and and a British Muslim, I'd be interested in hearing your take on a few things.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um obviously the big ones, the the the weekly protests that are taking place pro-Palestine, um, they seem to be a combination of um sympathetic people in the public, people who are left liberals.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably you know a big just radical left contingent in there.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you've got Islamists in there too.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what do you think the authorities should be doing in response to this, if at all?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: You've got free speech activists who just say, no, no, it doesn't matter what message people are are bringing, we should just allow it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are others saying, no, we need to clamp down.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I I think it's a very it's a multi-led uh issue.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think firstly, I I I've found it um troubling the amount of pro-Palestine activists who simply can't call October 7 terrorist attacks.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I find that deeply alarming.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think the level of support within the pro-Palestine movement for Hamas, um, which is a prescribed organization in the UK, very concerning.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for me, uh uh, I passionately support the Palestinian cause.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we need to continue working towards a two-state solution.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, Hamas possibly couldn't be part of um such a peace settlement.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, to be honest, I don't think you're going to get much of a peace settlement while Benjamin Netanyahu is leading the Israeli government, uh, we've truth be told, uh, which contains politicians such as uh Smothric and Bengeveir.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I tried to be as very uh as fair as fair as possible.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I I think the reality is that there's a there's a conservative case for Palestinian statehood rooted in traditional sovereignty and national self-determination.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's where my my position is.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And saying that, when you look at the pro-Palestine demonstrations, there's very clearly been quite blatant forms of uh the chanting of anti-Semitic slogans, um, the displaying of pro-terror um material uh as well.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and I think that the law and order response to that has been very weak.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um let's be absolutely clear here.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think what some people um would call that, this is what Professor Eric Calvin has come up with this term, um asymmetric multiculturalism, that the state can find its heavy hand when it comes to perhaps a Christian woman who is silently praying uh just outside an abortion clinic, but when it comes to um Islamist extremists um chanting anti-Semitic slogans and expressing solidarity with prescribed organizations, uh the law and order uh response is not quite so robust.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that needs to change.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I think, in my view, it is it is perfectly logical to be anti-Hamas and pro-Palestine.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, I don't see the contradiction there at all.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think quite easily you can be pro-Israel and anti-Likut.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't think there's a contradiction there either.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that at the moment, much of what's being covered um in relation to Israel-Palestine, it's very black and white, very binary, and I think some nuance needs to come um come to the fore.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, John, uh without a sustainable peace settlement between Israel and Palestine, which includes Palestine being a recognized state in itself, um, you're not going to be able to secure true stability uh in the Middle East region.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we've we've seen this uh normalization uh between Israel and countries such as the United Arab Emirates, uh Bahrain, um Kosovo, um which is also a Muslim-majority country.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um but for me, I think that normalization is not the route towards a sustainable peace settlement.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to be between Israel and Palestine, and it needs to be between good faith actors on both sides.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you called for nuance, you you delivered on your own on your own principle there, Rakib.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um some other law and order related questions at the moment to do with schooling.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: So um of late there have been um pretty vigorous protests outside of a school in Leighton um by by Muslim families after a teacher had asked a people to stop wearing a free Palestine badge.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the school has now closed its doors and is teaching online because um uh they they fear for teacher security.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and there's a whilst we're on the topic of schooling, there's also the very famous Catherine Burble Singh, who heads up the Mkala school in in Wembley.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a legal challenge at the moment from a Muslim people and family, which is being funded by legal aid um because they uh are alleging discriminatory practice for um not banning but saying we don't allow prayer within school from any faith group because we're trying to bring you all together and it's always been thus.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what do you think um what do you think uh you would do in response to these?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: What would you expect the responses to be?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and how does that bode for um a multi-ethnic society rather than multicultural?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think firstly, I I think on the whole, Britain should be very proud of its record when it comes to religious accommodation for for its minorities, uh, especially its Muslim population.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: I say Muslim population, the reality is that the Muslim population is incredibly diverse uh in itself, something that's missed, especially when you see phrases such as Muslim community um being hurled around.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I think more generally, uh when we're looking at the case, uh the court case uh regarding um Michaela School, uh based in Wembley, um which has Catherine Bobol Singh as its headmistress, and she also was involved in the founding um of the school.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I've seen some people say this is ultimately a trial between the British secular state and a religion.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: We don't actually have a secular state um here.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: We have we have an established church.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have French-style secularism um uh the the sort which is based on the principle of lysit there that that doesn't it that doesn't exist uh in in the UK.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is more of a matter of um the degree to which uh you should have independent school policy against pupils' freedom of religious observance.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that that that that that's a more accurate framing of that of that particular case.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for me to make it uh between uh essentially was a non-existent British secular state.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, there's been declining um Christian identification in the 21st century, but we're we're not a secular society.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh let's be clear, we don't have a secular state.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so the debate here really is uh to what extent should uh a headmistress um accommodate for particular forms of religious activity within a school that she leads and was involved in the establishment of that school.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the key debate here.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: But let's be very, very clear.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um that there'd be quite blatant forms of Islamist intimidation and harassment at British schools um in recent times, adopted around the country.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the again, the law and order response to that has been very weak.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that when it comes to this particular case, when you're referring to Michaela School uh based in Wembley, I think that's something that's more of a matter of religious accommodation and also the degree to which schools should be independent and have control over what is allowed on its premises, on its own premises, when it comes to uh forms of religious activity.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and uh there is the I I don't know if he forms part of the doom narrative that you spoke about at the beginning, but uh but he's someone who's who's gained um I suppose quite a following of late.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Matt Matt Goodwin has writes quite a lot about social cohesion in a different way.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh only a week after the October 7th attacks, he um was talking about um uh the uh British Muslim Society, and he brought up a bunch of polling figures.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what what um what I'd uh be interested in hearing from you, Rakib, is um as someone who has within your book presented a very positive case and one that I find um convincing uh with regards to uh cohesion and integration and allegiance to um uh Britain, um, is whether whether you see um that kind of furthering or whether you think recent events might solidify things, or if there's something underlying which might um uh always have a barrier between um sections of British Muslim society and um and and other parts of it.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: So uh a paragraph from one of his substacks, and it'll be good to get a reaction from you.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Matt wrote the polsters ICM found 53% of British Muslims want to fully integrate with non-Muslims in all aspects of life, while more than one in three, 37%, would like to integrate on some things, but favour separation from the non-Muslim majority in schooling and law.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: A further 7%, equivalent to about 266,000 Muslims, openly said they want to lead a separate Islamic life as far as possible, or a fully separate Islamic area in Britain subject to Sharia law and government.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, another recent poll found the exact same figure: 7% support the aim of ISIS, namely setting up a caliphate.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: While it is true many British Muslims identify with Britain and say they are proud to be British, it is also true that more than half want to send their children to a school with strong Muslim values, more than half think homosexuality should be illegal, more than four and ten think girls and boys should be taught separately, versus eleven percent of all Brits, and 44% think British schools should be able to insist on children wearing traditional religious schooling, like the hijab or Nikab.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: What what what what do you make in response to this?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think that firstly, British Muslim polling um in recent times, there have been methodological issues.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I'm not sure where those figures were from, um those exact figures, but there was one survey where the foundings were not the the findings, sorry, um, were worrying, but then it was also found that much of this polling had taken place in relatively segregated um Muslim communities.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's very important to talk about those um those methodological issues um surrounding sampling.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but what's very clear, of course, that there are problematic attitudes within particular sections of the British Muslim population.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um relatively segregated elements of the British Muslim population are more likely to be anti-Semitic and hold anti-Jewish conspiratorial beliefs.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I also but the thing that this is the big thing about the debate over integration is what you're asking people to integrate into.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I I think integrating um into equality of opportunity, appreciation of democratic choice, respect for the rule of law, those are fundamentals for me.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to put a very str a very deep line uh in the sand.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but if you're talking about cultural integration, it doesn't really surprise me that some British Muslim parents want to send their children to an institution with a traditional Islamic ethos, uh, when you see radical transgenderism worming its way into state schools.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of cultural integration, uh for example, if you're looking at uh the percentage of lone parent households in the white British mainstream, it's relatively high compared to British Muslim communities.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking at intergenerational cohesion, I would suspect that loneliness among the elderly is far more of a problem in the white British mainstream than traditional British Muslim communities.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we need to be very clear about what do we mean when it comes to cultural integration.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, is it the case that the more secularized, atomized, and individualistic mainstream could learn a thing or two when it comes to the family-oriented, faith-inspired values within British Muslim communities?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's very interesting in I'm not sure if um Professor Goodwin mentioned in his Substack, but there was some very interesting polling by a crime and justice consultancy called Crest Advisory, which found that the level of concern over Islamist extremism was very similar between the British Muslim respondents and the wider general public.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when it comes to um uh trust in public institutions, law and order institutions, um, British Muslims fare quite well on those kind of metrics.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and as you say, in terms of British national identity, um, it is the prevailing view within the British Muslim population to be proud of their British identity and to be appreciative of the religious freedoms um which are provided under British democracy.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what we need again is is more nuance over these conversations.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, I've been very clear about problems surrounding uh multiculturalism and integration.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: But when people talk to me about cultural assimilation, the argument I make is that not all is well culturally within the British mainstream.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and to be so I'll give you an example, John.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: In recent times, um more than 50% of children, babies born in England and Wales, are born out of wedlock.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you really want British Muslim families to integrate into that?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: They shouldn't be expected to integrate into that.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: And quite frankly, I'm quite glad the majority resist that.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what we need is a more honest debate about social and cultural developments in modern Britain.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I absolutely agree.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh these these points that you're making with regards to just wider British cultural trends, uh, which uh as what you've pointed out from various bits of data today within your book, and I think just anyone without a data set in front of them can look around and and see uh the deleterious effects of um this fraying of the social fabric is um we need I think I think probably a big takeaway from this conversation is we need to get to talking about culture more, not in a way that somehow divides us all, but about the things that we want to cultivate as a nation and to promote that actually leads to the health of all of us, instead of thinking that everything has to be down to either economics or social activist policies or or just general technocratic policies.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um definitely with you on that one.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and that probably leads us nicely on to the last question, Rachia, but I know we're coming up to the end of time.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is how how do you think that business and political leaders can play their part, in your words, to create a civic model of national identity rooted in respect for the rule of law, social cohesion, and equality of opportunity?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that would span uh various spheres uh of British life.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that equality of opportunity that you mentioned that that's just something that we shouldn't um we shouldn't sacrifice uh on the altar of uh DEI.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that what what's very clear to me is that we need to focus more on security and stability, uh, two terms that we've mentioned quite a bit in this conversation.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and in a way, I find it quite remarkable that DEI has wormed its way into defence and security.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely remarkable.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we need to do, we need to promote merit.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's the key.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: We want the merit-based allocation of rewards and opportunities in modern Britain.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Not every institution has to be perfectly reflective of the British general population.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that we need to make absolutely clear.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: We have uncomfortable rates of obesity in the UK.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want that rate to be reflected in the Met police, in the military?
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what you want, you want you want people who are well skilled and motivated.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think those, and they also need to be treated well.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if you look at the military, I'll just make this point very quickly.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not particularly great rates of pay.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the housing provided can be of a very poor quality.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that the key thing here is that security and stability, but also dignity, especially people who genuinely putting their own personal security on the line for our collective well-being.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we need to focus more on those kind of themes.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think at the moment there's a great deal of emphasis on race, ethnicity, other protective characteristics.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: We need to return to the bread and butter of promoting achievement and excellence and ultimately making sure how jobs are allocated, how opportunities are rewarded, is ultimately based on merit and ability, not on one's um protected, not based on one's uh protected characteristics.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I'd agree with all those things, and and I'd add something to it, which is, and I know it's a phrase that can get bandied around a lot and uh and can also be used for bad uh purposes, but I'm gonna talk about the common good and the common good in the in the the um uh sense that um on top of trying to focus on excellence and merit, is that we ought to try to get back to cultivating leaders and people in um positions of influence to um uh aspire for nobility in some way, to try to um cultivate virtue and what it means to be of good character, and that we're all uh aiming to bring people up along with us in our in our own ways, without, as we've talked about so much today, falling back on really simplistic policy goals and you know a set bullet point list of things that you need to do to right the wrongs of society, um, which then uh go cuts against all the points that you've just made.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um what whether we'll see that, I don't know.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: If we see people saying let's let's let's follow that Queen Elizabeth II model and uh and and have that kind of way of being that everyone looks up to, who knows?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think we need a combination of you know meritocracy plus nobility, but whether whether that comes back into fashion is uh another point entirely.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Very much remains to be seen.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll make this final point.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, I've I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, John.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the one thing that I really want to see from um leadership in various spheres of British life is to understand that diversity is not an unadulterated good.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Diversity is only uh a genuine strength if it's tied together by shared values and customs, uh common purpose and mutual obligations.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's the only way forwards.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, on that note, Rakeb, let's finish with where people can find you.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know you just released a newsletter, which I'm already enjoying.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, indeed.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you can sign up to the newsletter for free, which I distribute on Sunday evenings.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can sign up through my website, R A K I B E H S A N dot com.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if they want to follow uh people would like to follow me on Twitter, we'll now X.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um my handle is R-A-K-I-B-E-H-S-A-N.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if you want to uh tuck into more here when it comes to the arguments that I make uh on issues surrounding uh race, security, and opportunity, feel free to buy my book Beyond Grievance, on Amazon.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd highly recommend it.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Rakib, I've greatly enjoyed this conversation too.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: Hope we can speak again in the future.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: And good luck with everything.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I hope more people pick up your book.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely needed.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thoroughly enjoyed it.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: All the best.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining me in Thinking Class today.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: To keep up to date with all that I am doing, please subscribe to the Thinking Class YouTube channel at ThinkingClass and follow me on X at Thinking Classes.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking Class seeks to understand the civilizational issues we face and why what our leaders do in response matters.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Here I seek to explore the ideas, values, and culture that made our civilization, those that are unmaking it, and how leaders at our public and private institutions should respond.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: Engage with me on YouTube or X or write to me at thinkingclasspod at gmail.com to tell me who you want me to speak to and what topics are important to you.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to seeing you there and joining me on this journey.