Latest / Amigos, Afraid! / 35. (Satanic) Panic! at the Daycare

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35. (Satanic) Panic! at the Daycare · Amigos, Afraid!

0:01
Hi guys, before we get started, just want to note that this
0:03
episode is a little heavier. I did want to give some content
0:07
warnings regarding alleged child abuse and also a case of
0:12
suicide. With that being said, hi guys,
0:16
welcome back if you're sticking around.
0:17
Thank you for being here today. We have some business to attend
0:23
to today. We do.
0:24
I didn't have a meeting scheduled.
0:26
It's not scheduled with me per SE, OK, but with the man
0:31
downstairs. But we'll get into that brain.
0:33
Put a pin in that because we do have to circle back to that.
0:36
How are you, Ben? I'm doing good, I'm feeling
0:39
good, except that it's fucking a jillion degrees outside.
0:43
Yeah, dude, it's like. It's like we're in.
0:46
Devil's butt hole out here it's. Like we're in hell.
0:48
Yeah, spicy. It burned.
0:50
It's. Why is it spicy?
0:51
Step out and all of a sudden your freaking skin's getting
0:54
zipped, zapped and. Burnt this heat is that dry heat
0:59
that like slaps you in the face and it just like sucks the will
1:02
to live. And it's only March.
1:04
And it's only and it's only March.
1:08
What the second week of March with the with the couple days?
1:11
I don't know. I don't know what it is.
1:13
I mean, could it be global warming?
1:15
I strongly believe it is Allegedly.
1:19
Yep, you have a good weekend. You have a good weekend.
1:22
I did last week was honestly I I don't remember.
1:26
So I'm I'm just going to go with that.
1:28
Weekday not memorable. Yeah, but weekend, it was really
1:31
fun. I played some baseball.
1:33
We obviously saw the Oscars together, had some snacks.
1:40
It was true. It was true.
1:42
Conan is funny as hell. I love Conan, one of my favorite
1:44
comedians. But it was a good year for
1:48
films. It was.
1:49
I saw not every film that was nominated, but I saw some of
1:54
them and the ones I saw were great.
1:57
Sentimental value was really good.
1:59
Didn't watch it. Sinners was really good.
2:01
Watched it multiple. Times I that's on my list to
2:03
watch. It's that good.
2:06
I would happily watch that again.
2:08
K Pop Demon Hunters, as you know, we're big fans.
2:11
I had my gripes on them cutting off the man who was trying to
2:15
say his thank yous and they retracted the mic but allegedly
2:19
the entire room was also pissed. Good booing during that time.
2:22
Yeah, good. As they should.
2:24
First time a Korean K pop song has won song of the year at the
2:28
Oscars and they didn't even give them time to say their thank
2:30
yous. Yeah, while while other people
2:33
were both nominated and won and there was a tie and they each
2:38
got hella time to say their thank yous and yeah and accept
2:42
the reward. Crazy.
2:43
Saw a breakdown. You know how they made that joke
2:45
of like, oh, we're welcome. This man, the one who spoke for
2:48
like 4 minutes last year in his thank you speech.
2:50
Yeah, that was maybe 2 segments after they cut the the one of
2:54
the song songwriters short. And I saw an article saying that
2:58
that was the most tone deaf joke of the entire night.
3:01
Because you're making this joke of you getting the opportunity
3:05
to talk so long and then everyone else is getting cut off
3:08
promptly. Yeah, crazy.
3:12
Not a good look. Oscars.
3:14
Oscar. I don't know who you are, Oscar,
3:16
but it was not a good look. Oscar.
3:18
What the fuck? OO Wilde Oscar.
3:23
Oscar de la Renta is that? Is that a boxer?
3:25
Oscar de la Oh. Yeah, yeah, you're right.
3:30
You're right. Yeah.
3:30
Yeah. Yeah.
3:30
Yeah. Yeah.
3:31
Yeah. Yeah.
3:32
No. Yeah.
3:33
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
3:34
And they surprised Jerry for his birthday after.
3:36
Yeah, which is OK guys. So the awards finished and I'm
3:40
like, damn, this is like the ending of the baseball.
3:46
Yeah, sorry, it was the USA versus Dominican Republic.
3:50
I'm like, I'm, I'm sorry, guys, you guys didn't come to watch
3:51
baseball. But I'm putting it, it's the
3:53
9th. They're going into the 9th
3:54
inning. I'm putting the game on.
3:55
So I put the game on, they're playing blah, blah, blah, all
3:58
that stuff. And then out of nowhere, the TV
4:02
turns off. That shit was funny because it
4:06
caught me by surprise. I'm like, what the but I can't
4:08
react. I can't.
4:10
Obviously I'm I'm at home with guests.
4:12
I'm not going to be like, yo, who the fuck just turned off the
4:14
TV? That's.
4:14
What you're like when you're alone.
4:15
Interesting. When I'm alone.
4:19
Interesting. So then I'm like, whoa, it could
4:22
have been an accident. Oh.
4:23
You're like, Oh my goodness, did you guys see that?
4:25
What was? That, I mean, I'm scared.
4:26
It was just the bottom of the ninth inning, you know, game
4:28
tide or game on the line, you know?
4:30
So it was just a high stakes moment.
4:32
I forgot. But I was like, yeah, yeah,
4:33
yeah. So then I was like, oh, so I
4:35
just like clenched. And I was like, it's OK.
4:38
But then I started looking around and no one was moving and
4:40
everyone was so like, awkward. And then I hear the happy
4:42
birthday and I'm like. What the fuck, you couldn't have
4:45
waited one in? No, but my birthday.
4:48
No, it was fine because we got obviously we did the the, the
4:51
candles and we cut pieces and whatever and then we put the
4:54
game back on and it was still on.
4:56
So we had a little. Snack for the that last inning,
4:58
which I don't know baseball that well, but I've heard from my
5:03
lovely Co host that that call was terrible.
5:06
Terrible girl, we need robot UPS.
5:08
Yeah, I don't know what that means, but I I support my friend
5:10
Jerry and his desire for robot UPS.
5:12
Thank you, thank you. My future is now, lovely robot.
5:16
UPS Check it out. Chef's Kiss.
5:20
That was one of the highlights of my weekend.
5:22
Other highlights was I, thanks to this podcast, reunited with
5:27
some of my old Kmart coworkers. Hell yeah, they saw the episode
5:31
and they're like, dude, we should get back together.
5:33
Let's get the band back. Together.
5:34
That's so cool. So he went out for dinner, some
5:36
drinks, and it was, it was really fun reminiscing on our
5:39
shared experiences and then our individual stories because there
5:43
was people I forgot existed. Wow.
5:45
That they brought up. Yeah.
5:46
And they're like, oh, did you hear so and so went to jail?
5:48
Did you hear so and so died. Wow, I'm just.
5:52
Kidding. I don't know if anyone's dead.
5:53
But then like, so it was a Republican, a crazy Republican,
5:57
and someone else is a crazy hippie Democrat and I love that.
6:00
Amazing. Yeah.
6:01
Well, that's so cool. I'm glad you got to, you know,
6:03
reunite with old Co workers and friends.
6:05
That's fun. Yeah, that's awesome.
6:07
Hopefully next time there's more it'll be a bigger reunion.
6:11
But you know me, I'm a busy busy busy boy.
6:13
So we said let's revisit this idea in like 2 months.
6:16
Yeah, let me let me get my calendar.
6:18
Let me let me check my calendar. Yeah, 'cause for right now I
6:21
don't know. I got work stuff I gotta do, I
6:23
got personal time, I gotta play Pokémon.
6:25
You'd be working weekends. Don't remind.
6:27
Me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but that's
6:31
so cool. Shout out to the Kmart team.
6:33
The X Kmart team, yeah. X because they don't exist
6:35
anymore. Next I need to reunite with the
6:37
Old Navy Gurlies. If you guys listen, I haven't
6:42
seen y'all forever. I still work with one, but like
6:45
the other ones. I haven't seen you guys, you
6:47
ladies, since Coachella, I think. 2023.
6:51
Oh no. When we went last year, 2025.
6:55
Wow. Wow.
6:58
Yeah, that's cool. Denise, I miss you.
7:00
Natalie, I miss you. No, I think I might have seen
7:03
him after. Who knows?
7:04
That's still a dollar. Doesn't matter.
7:06
Yeah, you guys owe me a dollar. Dang.
7:09
Well, back to the topic at hand that we weren't at the top of
7:14
this episode. Unless you have anything else
7:15
you want to share regarding your week?
7:18
Any housekeeping? There's actually one thing.
7:25
What? That there's no thing.
7:28
Go ahead. Oh my God had me excited like,
7:31
oh, Jerry has something to share.
7:32
No, it's not like I don't talk to him almost every single day.
7:36
Not as much 'cause he keeps playing Poco.
7:38
Yeah, I know. But yesterday I was sitting
7:39
there at work slaving away and he's like, what are you doing?
7:41
And I'm like, bitch, I'm at work.
7:43
He calls me. Yep.
7:44
I'm like, OK, that was like calls him.
7:46
I'm running out of the office. I have to take a call.
7:51
They're like, OK. And then I'm in the hallway just
7:54
whispering, Hi, Jerry. He's like, what happened?
7:57
Like what's like, what's the T? And I'm like, I just wanted to
8:00
call you, what's up? What are you doing?
8:02
He's like, I'm on my lunch. I'm not used to cold.
8:04
Calls in front of my laptop, in front of my desktop.
8:06
I need, I need, I need a warning.
8:08
I need any don't surprise me with cold calls.
8:11
I need to be mentally. Prepared.
8:13
No. Oh, that's not how I work, but
8:16
then again, I don't do it often so don't expect it often.
8:19
Listen, the people I do call ran like on random occasions because
8:22
I'm not a caller. It's because I need something
8:24
done. There's something already pre
8:26
planned. Yep.
8:28
Or I checked your location and I saw that you're at your house.
8:32
That goes for all y'all. Everyone's.
8:34
Everyone's could be. Yeah, suspected.
8:37
I prefer not to call people when they're driving just because I
8:39
need to make sure your hands are on the wheel and I'm not
8:41
distracting you. You know, I do be talking with
8:44
my hands. I know, I know a.
8:46
Lot of people that talk with their.
8:47
Hands and it stresses me out. I'll be in your passenger seat
8:49
and you're like calling someone and then you're just like
8:51
holding your phone, like right at your face.
8:52
For sure. And then my other hand is just
8:54
like doing little air motions steering wheel.
8:59
Who knows? Knees, maybe your knees.
9:01
My knees do touch and I'm on the lookout looking to see if
9:04
there's any cops nearby like Jerry.
9:06
Put it down. Pressure out of off the charts
9:10
anyways. Anyways, last week we talked
9:15
about the Salem witch trials, right?
9:18
You were there and we did make a little offhand comment about
9:25
Satanic panic and the way we've been operating this podcast.
9:30
We're just we're taking this endless Rd. of whatever
9:34
interests us in one week leading into the other.
9:38
I did not do my research on whether any of the male witches
9:42
were gay. I forgot until right now.
9:44
Oh, you know what? You guys didn't remind me, no.
9:46
One reminded us no one can keep us accountable nowadays.
9:50
What the hell? True.
9:51
What the hell? You don't know when we record
9:52
this. I mean, it's Thursday, it's
9:55
Thursday, it's Thursday. It's definitely Thursday.
9:59
Allegedly. So this week we wanted to do
10:02
some research into the Satanic Panic.
10:05
Enter gasp, guys. Yeah, this, the Satanic Panic,
10:11
was absolutely not what I thought it was.
10:14
It's really dark. It it really is.
10:16
In a very alarming and a little like on the nose of today's
10:20
timeline kind of way, which chills me to my bones.
10:27
I, I came to learn and then not to get ahead of ourselves, but I
10:30
came to learn that it just, it's ironic how similar things
10:33
continue to be, but the the word panic is a perfect descriptor
10:39
for this whole thing. Just panic.
10:41
We're constantly living in a state of panic, like every,
10:44
like, handful of years. Yeah.
10:45
When was the last time we felt like at peace, you think as a
10:48
society? Back in my day.
10:52
I don't think I've ever known Peace 2016 No, no, no, no.
11:02
A certain person was elected to office.
11:04
Yeah, but it was a good year for music.
11:05
But anyways, yeah, yeah, no, I can't.
11:07
Can't tell you. Do you recall when?
11:13
When I was drinking water from the hose outside on a hot like
11:18
day. True.
11:20
Don't know what year that was. Don't know but.
11:22
That we made less water regulations that tasted better.
11:25
It made me it made me grow and. That's how Jerry grew sticks
11:28
inches that summer. And lost all my brain cells.
11:33
So what you got for me, friend? Well, I want to give you a
11:37
little bit of history into what the Satanic Panic was because as
11:40
stated previously, I was completely in shock of what led
11:44
to the panic, where that panic was what they thought the
11:48
satanic people were doing. So I will commence.
11:52
Last week we dove into the accusatory human nature during
11:55
the colonial era. This week, we jump ahead 300
11:59
years to discuss what led to the American Satanic Panic that
12:02
plagued the nation from the 1980s until the early 1990's.
12:07
The Satanic Panic was a sweeping phenomenon that had American
12:10
Society in hysterics for the better part of a decade.
12:14
Much like the Salem Witch Trials, communities once again
12:16
turn on each other, but this time the claim was that members
12:19
of our own communities were secretly worshipping Satan.
12:22
They were accused of committing despicable acts of sexual abuse,
12:25
producing pornography, sacrificing animals, harming
12:28
children, robbing graves, and even cannibalism.
12:33
The claims escalated quickly, and once they started, they
12:37
didn't really stop. These accusations gain traction
12:40
after the publication of the book Michelle Remembers by
12:43
Michelle Smith and Canadian psychologist Lawrence Pastor.
12:47
The book details Pastor sessions with Michelle where she recounts
12:50
what she claimed were repressed childhood memories of being
12:53
abused by Satanic cult. The book quickly became a
12:56
bestseller, but there was a problem.
12:59
Michelle's claims were never supported by physical evidence,
13:02
and many aspects of the story were later widely discredited.
13:05
Despite that, the book opened the doors for fear mongering.
13:09
Her recollections gave people a framework for what Satanic
13:12
ritual abuse was supposed to be like.
13:15
Around the same time, American family life was changing.
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By the 1980s, more women were entering the workforce as
13:21
households started relying on dual incomes.
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As a response, more children were being placed in daycare.
13:27
For many families, this was just new normal, but for others, it
13:30
became a source of anxiety. Parents were leaving their kids
13:34
with people they didn't fully know and places they couldn't
13:37
monitor. That uncertainty let fear start
13:39
to grow. Daycare centers, which were
13:42
meant to be safe spaces, slowly became the center of suspicion.
13:47
What started as a social shift quickly turned into something
13:49
darker. Places meant for care.
13:52
We're now being imagined as sites of abuse.
13:56
Why do you think a daycare was the easiest place to project
14:00
this fear out of the safety of your kids just because you don't
14:03
have eyes on them? Is it the guilt of having kids
14:07
that you then have to hand off to someone else because you
14:09
can't take care of them and maybe don't want to?
14:15
I I can I can see that. I think maybe there was also
14:20
like, I think it's a double edged sword, a fear, but also a
14:25
freedom of I'm leaving my kids there for the better part of the
14:29
day, but I'm not the one parenting them at that point.
14:33
I'm free from that responsibility.
14:35
But also maybe fearful because, I don't know, I'm hearing
14:38
whisperings of like, stuff that could happen and I'm not there
14:42
to, like, verify that for sure. Yeah.
14:46
But would have been safer to leave kids at home.
14:48
There was a whole era of lashy kids.
14:50
I was a lashy kid. What?
14:53
Well actually kid was a term given to kids I think in like
14:56
the 90s, early 2000s, where instead of being at any kind of
14:59
daycare, you're just left at home.
15:03
Then I consider myself that too. I think at youngest I was like,
15:06
maybe when I would be left alone 1211.
15:10
I'd probably be younger than that, but also because I had my
15:12
older brother. So they would just leave us
15:13
together. Yeah.
15:16
Yeah. So I would, I would consider
15:18
myself, yeah. Did you ever do any kind of
15:19
daycare? Or no, not, never.
15:21
Like official daycare was always like that, all the neighbors.
15:23
Have a neighbor or something? Family friend or something?
15:26
Or like just go hang out at like at their place and then go home
15:29
whenever. Yeah, especially like after
15:31
school. I was seeing some red carpet
15:35
interviews on the Oscars and someone asked Julia Fox a
15:38
question about one of the movies features like a like disabled
15:43
child or something and A and a mother.
15:45
I don't remember the movie, but the commentator, which I think
15:48
is an influencer, like a podcaster, says wasn't that guy
15:51
so annoying? The kid And the mom was like,
15:54
not the mom, but Julia, Julia Fox was like, I'm.
15:57
I'm not too sure because you do have to like, think of the story
16:00
and how this represents women were there in a society that is
16:03
not set up for them. Yeah.
16:05
Daycare and or school. She said school is only until
16:07
like 3:00 PM when the work day doesn't end till 5 or 6.
16:10
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe society did not figure out
16:14
that part of balancing your work life with child rearing.
16:19
Yeah. It's it's easier to just go to
16:21
the extreme and point fingers. Yeah.
16:24
And leave it and just. I'm going to drop off this kid.
16:26
Who knows what's going to happen.
16:27
And maybe that's what took over The Who knows.
16:29
The Who knows. It takes 11 claim and things go
16:32
freaking spiraling. Yeah.
16:34
Not long after Michelle Remembers was released, cases of
16:38
alleged satanic abuse began appearing across the country,
16:40
particularly in states like California and Texas.
16:44
One of the most infamous cases began in 1983 at the Mcmartin
16:48
Preschool in Manhattan Beach, CA.
16:51
It started with a single accusation.
16:53
A mother claimed that a school employee had abused her child.
16:56
Things escalated quickly. Letters were sent to parents
16:59
encouraging them to question their children about possible
17:02
abuse. Therapist began interviewing the
17:04
kids often using leading and suggestive questions.
17:08
By 1986, seven employees had been accused facing over 100
17:13
counts of child molestation. Some of the allegations included
17:17
ritual abuse, animal sacrifice, and even underground tunnels
17:21
used to hide bodies. The claims became more extreme
17:24
over time, but investigators were never able to find physical
17:28
evidence to support them. The Mcmartin trial would become
17:31
one of the longest and most expensive trials in American
17:34
history. Jerry, at what point do you stop
17:38
and ask? Are we actually finding
17:40
evidence? When you find evidence, that's
17:44
when you say, are we finding it? No.
17:46
Yes. OK.
17:48
That's where like the little tree branches off.
17:49
Like if yes, then this route. No.
17:53
OK, then just stop, you know? At 1:00, at some point, you're
17:57
just you're building a story. Yeah.
17:59
With nothing to prove its validity.
18:04
Also, I don't I don't know how effective questioning
18:08
preschoolers is. We all know preschoolers.
18:13
How old? 34.
18:15
Yes, around the ages of three to five to six.
18:20
Do they seem like they have a a great understanding?
18:25
I would say. Of the world.
18:27
No, I would say they know the truth.
18:30
You know what, what's true to them, what they're interpreting
18:33
and then able to communicate is one thing, but for the most
18:36
part, I don't think it's reliable when it comes down to
18:38
certain things. Like, you know, obviously I
18:41
don't know what the response is for like trauma or other
18:44
specific events that you can question the child and then them
18:47
give you an effective answer. Yeah.
18:51
But when it comes down to like the way that their mind works,
18:53
who knows their brain is so developing.
18:54
Like I would say no, I don't think it's like a like a solid
19:00
way to go about proving a daycare is doing this stuff.
19:04
Yes, I'm a little caught up because as much as that I'm
19:10
concerned with the the validity of some of these children's
19:13
claims, you also have to think of the scope of imagination that
19:16
a child has specifically with like, what are the questions
19:19
you're feeding them? Yeah.
19:21
How are you raising it? How are you also asking these
19:23
very sensitive questions to get any answer from them?
19:26
Like the idea of it just also like having to ask these
19:31
children these questions makes me like sick to my stomach.
19:33
And that's the hard part to digest of like also exposing it
19:37
to them. Let's say they they hadn't, they
19:41
don't know what any of this is. How are you framing that for a
19:44
child to understand and be like, OK, that was wrong.
19:47
Yeah. It literally like my stomach
19:50
turns because the idea of that as parents, you have to be able
19:54
to to have that conversation with your kid at some point.
19:57
Yeah. How early do you have that
19:58
conversation of there's, there's, there's ways that
20:03
adults should not be interacting with you?
20:07
I I'm sorry, I did not expect to pick such a heavy topic.
20:10
But when we did the, when I did research, this is unfortunately
20:14
where it LED. Yeah.
20:15
Yeah. But like you, like you
20:17
mentioned, these are like complex questions and you're
20:21
trying to explain it to, you know, a child.
20:24
And that's going to be hard no matter how you do it.
20:27
So sorry. Continue.
20:30
OK, no, because I want to continue the discussion.
20:32
But then you pull, you feed, hopefully you're feeding the
20:36
question to the child because the child hopefully did not
20:38
experience this. You then get what you're most
20:42
fearing. That becomes your entire basis.
20:46
Oh, this 4 year old child thinks this is this is what happened.
20:49
Or they say this is what happens because I don't want to.
20:53
At four years old, you still have autonomy to then build a
20:56
case of like, OK, multiply that. Now we have 100 claims, but
21:01
there's no solid evidence of any of this happening.
21:04
You're taking the hearsay, Not hearsay, but you're taking the
21:07
What's the way to phrase this? You're taking the statement of a
21:11
preschooler. Yeah.
21:13
Is that enough to build a case? Yeah.
21:15
I mean, yeah, it's, it's hard because I would say if there is
21:19
multiple reports conducted by different people.
21:22
But I think it was the same people.
21:23
See, so that's that's that's what.
21:25
I'm saying like. Yeah, it's one.
21:28
One entity, 1 entity. Asking the same questions,
21:31
phrasing them probably just like a certain way to get an answer.
21:35
Whereas if it were more spread out like different people asking
21:39
different questions but getting the same information, then I
21:43
think that to me is more of a concrete case compared to 1 sole
21:49
entity asking the same questions to the same age group and then
21:53
getting the same answers. So yeah.
21:55
But leading them with the same question.
21:56
Exactly. The Mcmartin case wasn't the
22:02
only one. In Kern County, California,
22:05
similar accusations surfaced. Children claimed caretakers wore
22:08
black robes, used inverted crosses and performed rituals
22:11
involving animals and babies. Authorities took it seriously
22:15
enough to form a ritual abuse task force.
22:17
So just like in the Salem witch trials where you have a whole
22:20
group of people trying to figure out who are the witches, now
22:23
you're saying who are the satanic ritualists?
22:26
They ended up interviewing hundreds of witnesses and even
22:29
sent people to prison. They went so far as to bring
22:31
heavy equipment to one of the schools today in the backyard to
22:35
find these so-called bodies. Yet there was no reported
22:38
children missing. What bodies?
22:43
The panic continued to spread. At its peak, there were claims
22:47
involving nearly 1400 alleged victims of virtual abuse.
22:52
And the legal system started to shift with it.
22:54
Following cases like Mcmartin, laws began to change.
22:58
In some instances, hearsay was allowed in court, protections
23:01
for defendants are weakened, and the urgency to protect children
23:04
sometimes outweigh the need for solid evidence.
23:07
But when the dust settled, the results told a different story.
23:10
In the Mcmartin case, all defendants were ultimately
23:12
acquitted due to a lack of evidence.
23:15
There was no tunnels. There was no bodies, no proof of
23:18
the crimes that had been described in such detail.
23:22
Another case unfolded in Travis County, Texas involving Daniel
23:25
and Frances Keller. The couple was accused of
23:27
abusing a young child at their home daycare in connection with
23:30
satanic practices. They were convicted in 1992 and
23:34
sentenced to prison. They spent over 2 decades behind
23:37
bars, but years later their case was re examined.
23:40
Investigators found that the accusations were inconsistent,
23:43
unsupported, and built on a flawed testimony.
23:47
The convictions were overturned and the couple was released in
23:49
2013. That's 20 years.
23:55
By then, the damage had already been done.
23:58
How? How do you fix something like
24:00
that? You can't give someone 20 years
24:03
of their life back. Nope, Nope.
24:06
I mean, I'm still I'm going to stand on the fact that it
24:09
doesn't matter how much money you receive in compensation for,
24:14
what's the word, wrongfully convicted and serving time in
24:17
prison. Like I just that that doesn't
24:21
matter. Like how much money I just you
24:22
can't get that time back. As a true crime girlie, I, I
24:27
love listening to true crime podcast.
24:29
So not that I'm, I've done a deep research into like legal
24:33
systems and stuff like that, but what I see in a lot of cases of
24:37
circumstantial evidence, they want to push for that conviction
24:42
just because of double jeopardy. Let's say they don't have all
24:45
the information needed because you have the right to a speedy
24:47
trial. Sometimes you end up in court
24:49
already and you have to run on that circumstantial evidence and
24:52
hope when you're the prosecution that you get any kind of jail
24:58
time. Because if the jury comes back
25:00
saying, oh, you're acquitted, you can't be tried twice.
25:02
Yeah. So again we're it's a constant
25:05
double edged sword. Wow, surprisingly understood
25:09
every single thing you said. Oh, really?
25:11
Yeah. Oh, it's because you've been
25:13
reading. It's because I've been reading.
25:14
And we've been researching. I think we're getting smarter
25:16
doing the podcast. Somehow, someway, we're getting
25:19
smarter. So have we really changed in 300
25:23
years when one witch hunt becomes another?
25:26
It does not really feel like it, no.
25:28
We replace witches with Satanist spectral evidence with recovered
25:32
memories, but the pattern stays the same.
25:36
Fear spreads and stories grow Wilder and unfortunately people
25:39
believe them. Are we completely past this in
25:43
the current scope of living in the Epstein files timeline?
25:50
Can we say with certainty that some of those cases weren't
25:54
factual? With all the stuff that's coming
25:57
out tied to of that man, I, it begs the question, yeah, was
26:05
this really a satanic panic? Was some of it real?
26:09
And things just kind of grew, grew legs and ran.
26:16
While that fear was playing out in courtrooms and communities,
26:19
it was also making its way into something else American pop
26:22
culture. Because while some people
26:24
believe Satanic influence was hiding in daycares, others were
26:28
convinced they could hear it in their favorite songs.
26:32
Wow, Brian is so interesting that you say that, but I would
26:37
like to say thank you for enlightening us on the dark
26:42
background of the Satanic panic. I also did not know a lot of the
26:46
things that I read like that I researched and it's a term
26:50
that's used a lot, but until you like find out like, damn, there
26:53
were so many things that were happening with so many different
26:56
groups of people that were fueling this fire.
26:59
It's it's it's I have. Whole conspiracies of why it LED
27:04
that way or people using this panic to better establish
27:09
themselves. And I it has to do with the
27:11
establishment of religion and stuff like that, but I don't
27:14
want to get into that today. OK, no, we don't have.
27:16
To and I'm not going to do it next week either.
27:19
I don't want to fly too close to the sun.
27:20
This is as close as you're getting from I.
27:22
Get you, I get you music. That's exactly what I'm talking
27:27
about, Brian. I'm talking about metal.
27:30
I'm talking about rock. I'm talking about all the things
27:34
related to the Satanic Panic in music.
27:37
So as you mentioned, this was the 1980s.
27:42
We're talking big hair. We're talking big riffs and too
27:45
many people. Your cassette tape was
27:48
possessed. What I buy it?
27:53
A time when your mom thought your Walkman was a portal to
27:56
hell. So we already got the breakdown.
27:58
The Satanic Panic being a mass moral hysteria in the 1980s.
28:03
And, you know, people were believing that the there were
28:06
secrets. Satanic cults everywhere,
28:08
kidnapping children, performing rituals and hiding messages and
28:12
rock music. The whole thing got supercharged
28:15
by media, religion and one very influential, now discredited
28:19
book. Michelle remembers this all
28:22
helped convince people that it was all real.
28:24
And in that time over 12,000 allegations popped up.
28:27
None of them were proven. And bringing back that topic of
28:30
panic and hysteria. Heavy metal wasn't just side
28:33
eyed, it got blamed for societal collapse.
28:36
Damn. Parents, churches and even
28:39
courts started claiming that bands were hiding subliminal
28:41
messages, satanic messages in songs, especially when played
28:46
backwards. I remember going on a do you
28:49
grab a hold of this in my early teens?
28:52
You're like this song, play it backward.
28:54
And there was a YouTube edit or something.
28:56
Yep. So somewhere in America there
28:58
was a guy sitting in his living room.
29:00
Like honey, if you spin this record the wrong way, Ozzy tells
29:04
you to summon Beelzebub. Oh my God, you use the full
29:07
legal name for the devil. I did.
29:09
One of them, bands like Black Sabbath, Mötley Crüe, Slayer,
29:14
even Led Zeppelin got dragged into this.
29:17
People blamed metal for suicides.
29:19
There were lawsuits, and fun fact, Judas Priest went to court
29:23
over hidden messages in 1990. The hidden messages controversy
29:28
or the case known as the Judas Priest Subliminal Message Trial,
29:31
stems from a tragic incident back in 1985 when two young men
29:36
shot themselves. Their families claim the band's
29:39
cover of Better by You Better Than Me contains subliminal
29:42
commands like Do it hidden in the audio.
29:47
The trial took place in Nevada in 1990.
29:50
The accusation was that the subliminal messages in the music
29:53
push the teens to attempt suicide.
29:55
The band has to literally sit there while their songs were
29:58
analyzed frame by frame, and at one point the supposed message
30:02
was argued to just be random audio artifacts or the noises
30:06
your brain wants to interpret as words.
30:10
So what was the verdict? The judge ruled in favor of
30:13
Judas Priest, saying there was no convincing evidence of
30:16
intentional subliminal messages, no proof of the music caused a
30:19
tragedy. So the judge said no, yeah, no,
30:24
that's not a thing. So once again, back to the
30:27
irony, the panic. It made heavy metal way more
30:31
appealing. From the Vice source that I
30:33
read, people at the time described it as a period where
30:36
America collectively lost its mind and anything vaguely
30:40
occult, metal, DND, anything fantasy got lumped together as
30:45
dangerous. Naturally, teens were like, oh,
30:48
the music is forbidden evil. I'll take three albums.
30:54
In that same article, it states by 1985, Satan lurked in every
30:59
suburb, reports of ritual sacrifice proliferated, and
31:02
panicky parents threw away scores of heavy metal, punk and
31:05
rock'n'roll records in an effort to protect their little angels
31:09
from the left hand path of Satan.
31:11
Oh. My God, of course, Satan's
31:13
left-handed. Not even Prince was spared.
31:18
So it's Purple Rain Prince. Purple Rain Prince 1980s dude,
31:21
come on. Damn.
31:22
So while parents were spinning vinyls in reverse, called back
31:26
masking, preachers were analyzing lyrics like FBI
31:29
agents. Kids were discovering nothing.
31:34
Even at the time, people had admitted the idea was both
31:37
terrifying and kind of cool. Imagine being a kid and thinking
31:41
this song might secretly be evil, but like in a fun way.
31:45
Oh my God. So I had to.
31:47
I had a deep dive. I looked into Reddit posts and
31:51
there's, you know, posts on there from people that lived
31:53
through it. So these were some of my
31:54
favorite ones. 1 user said reading about satanic lyrics in
32:00
a news article made them go and go get the album.
32:03
So media just once again making this kind of popular.
32:08
I would. Comment on this but let me know
32:09
when when I can interject. OK, another person talked about
32:13
sneaking albums like Marilyn Manson because the panic made it
32:16
feel like a war was playing out in the country.
32:19
It also explains why being into metal felt like joining a secret
32:22
rebellion. And then the last one on Reddit
32:27
was a guy who remembered adults claiming the KISS logo was
32:30
secretly A satanic symbol. Where the S S one were basically
32:36
just lightning bolts, but to them it stood for nights in
32:38
Satan's service. What kiss kiss nights in Satan's
32:43
service like it's an anagram. Yeah, exactly.
32:46
Acrostic poem. Exactly so your comment.
32:51
Yes this is so crazy because today I was watching a TikTok
32:58
court video. Do you know Afroman?
33:02
Yeah. The he sings that song.
33:09
Well, a couple years ago, his house was raided by police, OK,
33:14
because they believe that he was Wheeling and Dylan.
33:18
OK, he wasn't. They confiscated money that he
33:23
had, which was a thing like $1200.
33:26
They broke his door down. They sniffed his mom's pie that
33:29
she was making and they just. It was a whole messy situation.
33:33
OK. They turns out nothing of the
33:37
sort was happening. When they want to go give him
33:40
his money back, $400 was missing.
33:42
Interesting. It was reported that in evidence
33:46
what they gave back was $400.00 short.
33:48
So they reported I think that there was 1200, but that was not
33:53
what was given back when it was taken from evidence.
33:55
So it was $400.00 short. This man, a lyricist and
33:58
musician, then started making songs about it and calling the
34:04
police names, recounting the events.
34:08
There is some very transphobic comments on one of the police
34:11
officers. We do not, absolutely do not
34:12
support that. But the police officers are
34:15
suing for defamation, saying that these songs are ruining
34:20
their character. And it is the most like head
34:24
scratch what? Because most of what he's
34:29
saying, in my opinion is opinion, of course.
34:32
And he keeps referencing those $400.00 which they have on
34:35
stand. They're asking them how much
34:37
money was taken, how much money was given back, where was his
34:41
discrepancy? And they say like, oh, yeah, it
34:42
was reported that $400 was short when returned.
34:46
But they did an internal investigation.
34:48
And it turns out that I did my map, the police officer, I did
34:52
my mouth wrong when I was first putting it into evidence.
34:55
That's what their internal investigation.
34:57
OK, so we don't know. That's what he's saying is the
35:00
truth on on. He's swearing on the Bible.
35:02
OK. But that led me down someone
35:06
commentating, commentating or commenting saying that this has
35:10
become an example of the Streisand effect.
35:13
Barbra Streisand. Yes, Barbra, which we saw at the
35:17
Oscars. Barbra Streisand.
35:20
All. Linked so long time ago, a
35:26
photographer had taken a picture of a coastline and in it was
35:29
Barbra Streisand's house, the back of it from far away.
35:33
OK. From what I understand, no one
35:36
knew it was Barbra Streisand's house she then sued the
35:41
photographer for or a season. This is something being like
35:45
you. Why are you putting my house out
35:48
there to the public to see? Because she did that, more eyes
35:53
were then on the case and the picture.
35:58
So because Streisand made it a thing, more people knew about it
36:05
and people started showing up at her house, of course.
36:07
So that's the Streisand effect. By giving something attention
36:10
that you don't want attention, the attention grows greater.
36:12
Exactly. So all these police officers who
36:15
said that this is defamatory, it's ruining A reputation.
36:18
No one that I know or has seen has ever heard of these Afroman
36:23
songs. Some of them have less than like
36:26
100,000 views. That's very small on the grand
36:28
scheme of the Internet. But because of this situation,
36:30
dude, those are. They're going viral.
36:33
So do you think that's going to give them a case?
36:36
I don't know, I think they just fucked themselves over because
36:38
if it's just this man making his little music saying the cops are
36:43
terrible, which is an opinion you can have, you're allowed to
36:45
have. Exactly.
36:46
They're Oh my God, one of them was the guy with the one of the,
36:51
I don't know if it was the defense or the prosecution said,
36:54
Oh, in one of his songs it says that your wife is cheating on
36:59
you with Afroman. Is that true?
37:03
Oh, I don't know, man, I can't can't know that for certain.
37:10
Like, Oh my God, your your job is to go up there and say no.
37:12
And he's like, I would sure hope not.
37:14
We've been to go there since middle school.
37:19
It's just like the, the, the neurons are not connecting in
37:21
there. And there was like there's like
37:24
four or five of them that are grouped together to sue for
37:26
defamation. And it's, it's just, it's a
37:29
whole thing, but goes to what you're saying and why I thought
37:33
of it. People saying like, oh, we need
37:34
to get rid of this music. It's Satanic.
37:36
There's hidden messages. You're bringing attention to it.
37:39
What's it's going to what's going to happen?
37:41
People are going to look it up. Yep, but I think in this case
37:44
like the defamation part with what you say like the what what
37:48
you said the song probably didn't have a lot of streams at
37:51
the time. So I feel like they should only
37:53
be looking at that period of when the defamation is being
37:57
argued by the cops and then all the.
37:59
Songs came out. After the fact.
38:01
Oh, there you go. So.
38:02
All the songs came out as a response to them breaking down
38:05
his door and sniffing his mom's pie.
38:08
Wow, sorry no it took from your. No, no, that the Streisand
38:12
effect. That's what it's called.
38:14
Streisand. No, this actually leads me into
38:18
the to the to the ending. Nothing sells an album faster
38:21
than warning. This music may summon demons,
38:24
You know, I don't know. I think as someone who listens
38:29
to metal, can't see myself living in during that time, like
38:34
I just I don't know how I would react.
38:35
Like would I be ashamed? Would I be scared?
38:39
Would I would I live it? Would I just be like no, I would
38:41
double down. And like, I mean I'm wearing a
38:44
Black Sabbath shirt from 1981 with a devil on it.
38:48
So I would say I would double down and just be like yeah dude,
38:53
I play DNDI, listen to Black Sabbath.
38:57
Fuck off mate. So I'm.
39:00
So you didn't experience any of that like in your time of being
39:04
a metal fan because I know you grew up in the late 90s and
39:06
early 2000s, but your parents weren't like.
39:10
Well, yeah, no, for sure. Like the, the, I mean,
39:13
absolutely the answer is yes. But it's cool when years later
39:17
you look at pictures that are just like a goldmine because
39:22
that's when I found out. I know my dad always listening
39:24
to rock. He always like liked it.
39:26
He always had CDs, but then I found the shirt that I'm wearing
39:29
now in one of his pictures and which is why I bought it because
39:32
I was like, damn, you used to one listen to Black Sabbath.
39:35
So like, he was some sort of metal head to some extent in
39:38
Mexico. But like, what changed?
39:41
Like, why now? Like, did you become an adult?
39:43
Lose your whims? You have to ask him.
39:44
I did about. The Satanic Panic.
39:46
So I do have to ask him. I think that'd be like a good
39:50
ass. Question like a cambio?
39:51
Like was it perception? Like, did you hear about these
39:54
crazy stories? Like, why did you listen to it?
39:57
Was it because you were like rebellious and you know, you,
40:00
you felt, you know, I don't know, like dangerous, I don't
40:03
know, like what it was, what was it like?
40:05
Especially in Mexico, because huge rock scene out there, huge
40:08
metal scene out there. But.
40:11
What do you remember? OK, I'll follow up.
40:13
I'll follow up. Just for out of my nosiness.
40:15
But I will bring up again the story where he said he was at
40:19
home listening to Pink Floyd with his posters on his walls
40:22
with like no lights. And then he experienced this
40:26
weight on his chest. He couldn't move.
40:28
He felt like something was sitting on him.
40:30
And then after that, he said it changed his perception of rock
40:33
and he never listened to it again.
40:34
So that's that's the story I always reference.
40:36
He probably just had sleep paralysis and it scaled.
40:41
It scaled him. Do you ever play your music
40:43
around him? Yeah, I do.
40:44
I mean, I always have. I mean my brother would always
40:46
play like motionless and white and all these like metal core
40:51
playing music videos but. For him, you should play yeah
40:53
the songs of his era. No, I, I just.
40:55
Keep an eye on him, see that foot starts.
40:56
Tapping there, there has been times where like he's like, Oh
40:59
yeah, I remember this song or like, Oh yeah, like.
41:01
Aw, I'm like that. That's cute.
41:03
But I, I just, I don't think he'd listen to it now.
41:05
Yeah. He won't go out of his way.
41:06
To no. And I told him if I were to buy
41:08
him this shirt, would he wear it?
41:10
And he was like, no, I'm like, where's your whimsy, man?
41:15
When you turn a certain age and he's like becoming God fearing
41:17
again. To end my Ted talk here, which,
41:23
well, not really, I have one more thing.
41:25
Metal survived. And in the words of the late
41:29
Ozzy, you can't kill Rock'n'roll.
41:33
So what songs are you thinking of?
41:34
Like, do you? Can you name any song from like
41:36
the 1980s? Or you were like, Oh yeah,
41:38
that's hello. That's hello Coltie.
41:40
That's hello dark and satanic. I have some right now that I
41:44
pulled up with some lyrics. OK Judas Priest, the song Eat me
41:49
Alive. The lyrics, gut wrenching frenzy
41:54
that deranges every joint. I'm going to force you at
41:58
gunpoint to eat me alive. Oh damn.
42:03
OK. That would be Satan.
42:05
Raising an eyebrow. I think this one might erase
42:08
some eyebrows, but the band Merciful hate into the coven.
42:13
That's the full name. That's yeah, the band name and
42:16
then song title. OK, suck the blood from his
42:19
unholy, from this unholy knife. Say after me, my soul belongs to
42:25
Satan. I mean, they're not leaving much
42:27
the imagination. No.
42:30
Even if you take this at just face value, it seems pretty
42:33
satanic to me. There's more.
42:36
Oh. Damn.
42:38
Def Leppard High and dry. I'm not a loner.
42:41
I'm not a fool. Don't need a reason.
42:43
Reason to be cool. I got my whiskey, I got my wine,
42:47
I got my woman. And this time the lights are
42:50
going out. Sex, Satan.
42:54
Last one venom the song possessed.
42:59
We drink the vomit of the priests, Make Love to the Make
43:04
Love with the dying. Poor wow, Jerry doesn't want to
43:08
say that word. He's so respected.
43:09
I don't We suck the blood of the beast and hold the key to
43:14
death's door. Damn.
43:16
What about that song scream Satan to you man?
43:19
I I don't see it. No, it's derogatory terms.
43:21
Derogatory terms to women. Yeah, wild.
43:25
But some songs, some songs that I thought were fun to to bring
43:28
up and, you know, just to give you a glimpse of what was being
43:32
dropped at the time. And it's heavy.
43:35
It is heavy. Yeah, but I don't feel panicked
43:37
about it. Well, guess who is religious
43:40
groups? Damn moms, moms across America.
43:44
Moms across America, definitely a historic time in terms of
43:50
music, 'cause there was a lot of bambing.
43:51
Black Sabbath in general, is it similar to things that are
43:54
happening right now? Of course, of course.
43:57
That's crazy. Every every era has their like
43:59
counterculture. We saw a really cool a cool
44:03
exhibit at the museum this year, last year.
44:07
What was it like? The rock?
44:09
Oh yeah, it was a punk OC the. Yeah, that was cool.
44:12
Yeah, the history and you know, the history of punk in OC yeah,
44:18
there you go. Yeah, it was really cool.
44:22
And I know they did drop some like influential punk bands from
44:26
just the country, but I mean, it's there's always, you know, a
44:30
a reason behind these eras. And especially with music, how
44:35
are how is the youth expressing themselves during what times?
44:39
Like there's always reason for it, so.
44:42
It's always a response to something.
44:43
Yeah. Did you guys ever have any of
44:48
those like YouTube deep dive errors of like subliminal
44:52
messages and songs? Because I I did.
44:55
It would be like, yeah, in rock songs, but it would also be like
44:58
pop, like current pop songs. I remember doing like Rihanna
45:02
and stuff like. That Oh no, some.
45:04
Disturbia backwards and then people piercing together their
45:09
what they think they hear. Oh, it's like us doing this beer
45:11
box. Literally doing this beer box.
45:14
Wow, imagination is a crazy. Thing it really is it really is
45:19
it really is both spectrums if you did want to listen to other
45:24
similar songs that were popular in the 1980s during the satanic
45:27
panic, a lot of music platforms have playlists already just with
45:32
bands and music and. Called like Satanic panic it.
45:35
Literally called Satanic Panic, so check it out on Apple Music,
45:38
Spotify, wherever you get your music.
45:40
Give us your rec. I will give up my recommendation
45:43
for you to give us 2 together. Get us in the theme.
45:45
What 2 songs would you recommend?
45:48
I mean Black Sabbath, self-titled tongue Black
45:51
Sabbath. And that's one of my I mean the.
45:54
Lyrics is like. Like what is this that stands
45:57
before me dressed in black? Something something I think he
46:02
does. He's like Satan, something I
46:04
forget. But damn, not helping our case.
46:10
And then I mean, yeah. This is Jerry's wheelhouse.
46:15
This is so. There's so many.
46:18
Music tastes for you. I mean, I'm not, I'm not a huge
46:21
Prince fan, but because I didn't name drop him earlier, there is
46:24
a Prince song that I know was like up there with the other
46:30
crazy bands of the time. So Prince, the song Darling
46:32
Nikki I guess was also one that people were freaking out over
46:36
saying like Nope, that's definitely not acceptable at the
46:40
time I guess. What do you know about 'cause I?
46:42
I just quickly googled the one I remember listening to, which I
46:46
think is a Led Zeppelin song. Stairway to Heaven.
46:49
Yeah, where you hear something creepy in the background.
46:52
That's a beautiful song, like Led Zeppelin cover band or not
46:57
JKI. Don't remember what it would say
46:59
backwards, but. Neither do I.
47:01
I mean, I don't think I ever went on that deep dive, but
47:03
dude, you, you play Stairway to Heaven.
47:05
It's just like background music. Gold.
47:11
I would love to have that plane as I bleed out by the river
47:15
after. By the river.
47:16
After defeating swim 'cause there's got no by the river, so
47:19
like I'm on the bank and I'm bleeding out after like my my
47:22
main character fight scene against a dragon or something,
47:25
yeah. And you lost.
47:27
And you won. And I won, but I lost, OK.
47:30
Guys, I think Satan's taking over.
47:32
I got so sleepy. Wow.
47:33
I think that means we have to end it.
47:36
No song, no. Why have the all the glory
47:38
today? I was not into this area of
47:41
music. Damn.
47:43
So that's all you. Thank you.
47:46
Listen to the mob rules by Black Sabbath Mob rules.
47:50
That's the shirt I have on right now.
47:51
Oh. Yeah, there is a big devil on
47:53
it. He's not even that scary.
47:55
He's actually opening his hands, hands or his arms around for
47:59
like a big. Hug a Big Bear hug with his
48:02
wings and his horns. I think you guys are sticking
48:06
with this rock'n'roll. This was, like I said, a little
48:09
heavier of an episode regarding topics, but we'll be back next
48:11
week with something. Maybe something a little spooky
48:14
with something. Heavier.
48:15
No, just kidding. No, I don't want to get any
48:18
heavier than this a podcaster for a good time.
48:22
This is just something that has been piquing my interest for a
48:24
very long time. You hear that term Satanic
48:27
Panic, and you don't really know what that fully covers.
48:29
Yeah, I'll tell you what is covered.
48:34
What I got? Nothing.
48:38
You waited too long. No, he's bad at jokes.
48:42
OK. Thank you guys for listening.
48:43
You got me covered. Bye bye.