Latest / The Future Travel Experience (FTE) Podcast / 'More than just a box': the future of ULDs with Janis Balkens, COO at Unilode Aviation Solutions

Transcript

'More than just a box': the future of ULDs with Janis Balkens, COO at Unilode Aviation Solutions · The Future Travel Experience (FTE) Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Ever felt like the world is moving too fast?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: That there's simply not enough time between clearing your inbox and joining the next team's call to give deep and meaningful thought to the technologies that are about to transform your aviation operation?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, help is at hand with this new Future Travel Experience podcast.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Proud to be part of the Apex family.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Max Gosny.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Tune in for a collaborative and friendly forum where we'll guide you on the innovations that are too important to ignore.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Each episode I'll be interviewing aviation chiefs who've blazed a trail with new technology.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can listen on your way to work while travelling to an Apex FTE event or even while walking your dog.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever your preference, you'll uncover a wealth of collaboration, best practice, and creative thinking.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the show.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to take a look at an aviation unsung hero.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're everywhere and nowhere.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Around a million of them are in circulation, but you probably looked straight past one the last time you flew out of an airport without a single second thought.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: They can contain everything from sunglasses and swimming shorts to radioactive material and snakes.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: It might look on the surface like a Tetris block which has just been left a little too long in the sun, but the ULD is evidence that you can never judge a book by its cover.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: We find out more with Janice Balkins, COO at Uniload, a company which helps airlines optimise and manage their ULD fleets.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Janice reveals a future driven by light weighting, live tracking, and sensory data collection on light, temperature, humidity, and tampering that will protect precious loads for years to come.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hello Janis and welcome to the podcast.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Max.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Good to be with you.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be here and to be with you here at uh Uniloads offices here, just on the edge of um the airport at Heathrow.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are specializing in the care and management of the ubiquitous ULDs that we see at every airport around the world.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um tell us a bit more about your role in helping customers bring the best out of the ULD and a bit more about the device itself.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so uh Unit, we manage the largest uh world's largest fleet of unit ULDs.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh around one-fifth of the all the containers and pallets that you see around the world.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um shock us, how many does that equate to?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is the I mean, there's a there's a lot of these in in circulation, I imagine.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's around we we uh estimate around 1.1 million, and we have around 220,000 now.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's our fleet.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um, and it's uh it's an astonishingly large number.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh you don't realize that on until you start paying attention.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: You just go to these big airports and you see we are everywhere.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what does um Uniload's role in their management entail?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because the there is a lot more to um, I just see a you know a silver sort of metal box here uh that fits nicely inside a hole, but but there's a lot more to this device than than what you might see at face value.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so essentially uh our core business is that we lease and manage ULDs for the airlines.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we provide uh more than 60 airlines on our on our books, uh, and we provide them with uh ULDs, containers, and pallets that we manage, track, repair, reposition all across the globe.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a massive logistical operation, which uh uh we believe we are very, very good at.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but our our our um one of our slogans is that the ULD is more than a box.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh and our our ULDs are smart devices equipped, so which means they uh are equipped with uh uh uh giving us the signal where they are.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh through live tracking.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So live tracking, so so be it through the reader network, IAT, IoT network, uh, but also they give us the sensory information like the temperature around them, the shock, the light, uh uh humidity, uh which of course is very important, especially for our cargo customers when once they maintain the integrity of the shipment, but also in in in terms of, for example, light light uh sensor in terms of pilferage risk.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it can uh provide an indicator of theft and yeah, you can see what at what point and where the ULD was open.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh and if uh, for example, anyone would have a claim of a pilferage, we could go back and see where that ULD was at that point.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, did it have to be opened uh at that point during normal process or not?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um you said yeah, ULDs are uh smart at the moment, but I'd be interested to hear how you think that they may get even smarter with the advent of more digital um technologies, AI.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: What does the future hold, do you think, for the devices?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think we we uh um in our industry, you know, it's uh it's quite fragmented industry, as you know.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: We have many stakeholders.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've come a long way uh uh uh to from the messaging and pen and paper.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um at least we we uh we now take automated stock takes in the airports.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh uh if you know the the guys needed to run every Tuesday around the airport to try to uh pen down all the numbers of ULDs who are the stock.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a thing uh of the past.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh gradually, we're getting there now.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: We also have a live tracking.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we we've come to that.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So then the next question is what do we do with this?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: How we use that information.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um, passengers, for example, in bags, uh uh they very often them they have IoT devices, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: They will have different devices from providers to track their bags, and you still have this conflict of when your bag doesn't come, you see it actually where it is live, while the agent in the lost and found can't.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, it's happened to me.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's happened to you as well.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you see uh slowly that the airlines embrace the IoT devices and with our ULDs who are able to read the technology, so how can we maybe go forward with data sharing so so we can actually assure that the right bag is on the right flight?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and uh uh because that's still done manually by someone scanning almost the barcode, like in the retail.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um for us, the the on the ULD management side is as well, how do we you know take the human error out of the equation in the process and actually have digital to cover up for just could be a finger error or lack of discipline?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's causing the lag?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like you say, in our industry, you know commercially, you and I might go out and buy a tracker for a relatively small amount of money, and we can follow it on our smartphone.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: What why can't the industry keep pace?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's I don't think it's the industries.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh um I'm sure you've heard about data privacy, data sharing uh uh challenges there, and and uh and rightly so.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um there we have to deal with this with caution.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think these are the barriers that exist.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a technology, actually.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's actually sharing the day the data uh with one another that would unlock this potential.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: But uh there are there it's not a simple, straightforward way.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of uh concerns out there for absolutely sorry, I've been a little bit facetious in my question.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But an FTE, we we have got a group underway looking at that collaborative data sharing.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how do you is it going to be initiatives like that where you are bringing different stakeholder groups together that will overcome that that confidentiality and and you know sensitivity to sharing data?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think for you, if you are um bring the stakeholders together, which must include also the regulators, uh uh the business alone will not be able to solve this.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, then that could be uh uh more like a rounded proposal to for endorsement.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I think the the frustrations on on your let's say on a passenger side normally is that the bag flies still on the wrong flight uh because someone loaded the wrong bag or the bag doesn't come, and then you have the uh um where the bag actually is, uh different points of view on that one, even today.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um technology is there today to solve that.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: What we need to solve is the barrier actually uh sharing the data.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, either it's uh uh like when we open any new browser today, we have to accept cookies.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's that through that consent uh uh that the the passengers who choose that will get that information.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I think technologically we are very we're not far off at all.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's really about uh uh if we uh both sides give consent and if it's allowed in a certain jurisdiction uh to to share that data, which also is different because with the aviation, of course, you deal with international travel, which means there might be different rules in different places.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a global problem-solving exercise on this.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Moving on to another kind of um new technology, and I'd be very interested to get your view on the role of um robotics and automation in terms of loading um and unloading ULDs.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: We had a really interesting piece from a supplier at uh an FTE baggage innovation working group meeting last week where they were showing video of intral robot arms both loading up that ULD in the baggage hall but also on the ramp, um, sort of unloading aircraft.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think the opportunity is and how likely do you think we are seeing to see that automation coming in?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think you we all have seen in the last week or so the the videos from Japan, right?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: The robots uh loading, unloading uh uh uh the aircraft.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's simple as I mean, demand drives supply, right?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So so uh um Japan's been uh uh very vocal about their lack of manpower.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that drives innovation.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a necessity.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you don't have the lack of manpower at that stage yet, I think the the the push is not enough there, maybe in other parts of the world.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I think with all these innovations, uh, and if you look at the um the manpower shortages, especially in certain parts of the world, uh um if the concept they have rolled out in Japan takes off and gains scale, that of course could be very, very attractive.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um but I think it's it's it's early days in a way, uh, because um what you see with these technologies sometimes is yes, it looks really cool and it uh uh and it can do certain tasks, but then you also need to uh uh take into account the cost and also the speed.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as you know in aviation the the turnaround time is is absolutely critical.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh if um by doing it through the uh these uh uh uh machines, if you like, uh we have to lose another 10 minutes on turnaround, and I think the business case is there.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So and I think the the piece I referenced, maybe it was a combination of human optive working alongside robot.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that may maybe a hybrid.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's been uh, for example, rolled out for many years already, for example, in Scandinavia.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it's more more to do with health and safety as well, to protect.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is absolutely valid uh to do that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um I'm surprised it hasn't taken off even much more than it has now.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um because it's uh it's a no-brainer, it's a very straightforward technology that helps you to uh um especially in the baggage makeup area, because it's quite you can automate it quite uh quite easily.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: But so you think there might be first in terms of yes, yes, definitely, because it's an area that you can manage easier through the through the machines while the airpron is still uh um, you know, we've tried to to deploy automated driverless cars on on the ramp for how many years now?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it's still a concept.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, difficult.
• 13:12
  unknown: It's difficult.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: We don't move fast as an industry as we just uh discussed it.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, we we both have um know each other from former lives in that apron area, the ground handling um market.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: What changes do you think that the advent of more automation will bring to the role of the ground handler at the airport?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: The automation brings consistency, and I think that that is absolutely uh key.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not underestimate that.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: It brings uh uh standardization, uh consistency, and I think uh as that gives you an opportunity if you're an airport operator to through evolution of this technology to continuously raise your standard and standard delivery.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: While with with with of course manual uh uh work, uh you're all dependent on on uh you have uh better handlers at your airport or or the ones that are struggling more, but you have less consistency.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that uh um one could see the uh uh the vision where where the scope of the physical work is reducing uh because there's more either robots or or technology coming in play, just like it has happened on the passenger handling, yes, to be fair, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean now checking in uh through an agent is uh like a fallback process uh these days, uh unlike it was in the old days before when it was a primary process.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: How does that change the supply chain dynamics with with the role of the handler?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think they have to change their model in any way because of that?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or because it is less of a labor service and it becomes more of a I think well today handlers are actually very very good at this.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: They they as most companies they're moving towards becoming more technology companies, uh uh where they offer uh technology again to to uh to their stakeholders, to the airports and handlers to bring visibility uh uh and to integrate, let's say, with customs and and and cargo management systems and and fast tracking that, which which is very important to raise the competitiveness of the country, right?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of importing goods.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's more it's as with everything in in these kinds of things, you either embrace it or you die.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Change or die, yeah.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Charles Darwin was right.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's very true.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And on that theme, um, Yanis, what leadership traits do you think are most important in driving um effective innovation and continuous improvement within a business?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would say one takeaway you see is we still do not allocate enough resource and capital on change management.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: We invest enormous amount of money in solutions and then uh in a lab and development and software development, and even but then the change management that comes with it.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um, I was recently in one presentation uh from one management consulting, which basically said, you know, you would need to allocate 50% of your budget to change management because if you don't roll out effective change management, you don't actually get the benefits of the solution.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's theoretical because uh uh yeah, it becomes marginal or people sabotage it or because they don't adopt it.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, while how many of us can honestly say that that's when you take any business case that the 50% is allocated to change management?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think many.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's one thing that uh uh you see solutions that have been rolled out successfully, it's when you have proper attention to actually how you move people with the change instead of put them to just face it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I was gonna ask what kind of techniques work to get people onside rather than about uh uh allocating enough resources and time to make sure that you uh bring people with it, either through work groups, workshops, uh uh uh dry runs, uh like we do when we open new passenger terminals, right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: We we have uh Orats, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, how about that uh uh going through in in within the companies itself, right?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where we actually test if what we've written works in reality and we train people to the right standard, and people embrace that change because then once they do the results, is then then you can reach the full potential.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Howdy there, partners.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Future Travel Experience's 20th anniversary global is going to Texas.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Join us from the 8th to the 10th of September in Dallas, where we'll be bringing together airlines, airports, technologists, startups, and industry partners who wish to reimagine the future of travel.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: For attendance inquiries or to join us on the exhibition floor, please email me at max at future travel experience.com.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see you there.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mentioned there the concept of and we talked about there of continuous improvement.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know you were reflecting to me just before we press record on your recent journey, I think across continents from um India over to South America.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: What were some of your observations as a passenger about the experience and some of the frustrations or you know, perhaps lack of standardization that that frustrated your journey and other journeys that we could look at as an industry?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the uh um the the the one piece that uh uh of course we will always talk about uh is the harmonization of the travel.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: In my recent uh travel two weeks ago, I flew three flights across three continents on three different airlines.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh on some flights I was allowed to take a bag, uh cabin bag in the same bag.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: On the other flight, they tried to take away from it.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um, and then of course you always hear customers say, But I just flew on another aircraft and it was okay, why it's not okay now.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because maybe the staff have different training, different sets of rules.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, while that makes no sense uh to the customer itself who is not uh subjected to this.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, uh the same applies to security.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um in in one airport I managed to get my my uh uh didn't have to take my liquids out, went through, and at the other airport they took my liquids away in transit.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: So out of the three flights I managed to get on two with my liquids, and the third one I have to give them away.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, so and I think it's very, very complicated these days for passengers to really uh understand what's what.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost you know uh you know managed by default.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: You have to go one from one airport to another, uh, especially if you travel in transit and connecting through various, there's no way you're gonna know what rules are gonna apply, and that's very frustrating, and I think puts a lot of people off.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do you think that we can turn that into an opportunity as a as an industry?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: That current picture.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the uh um it's always about scaling up.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: First is to is to find a harmony, let's say, within country, that would be nice, then within the region, let's say the same EU or US, uh uh, and uh because you still have a lot of fragmentation.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um, and then when you have regions harmonized, then you have the last bit, which is to align align in the regions.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you think of uh uh, for example, aircraft certification or repairs, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: While FA recognizes ARSA, ARSA recognizes FA.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's possible, yes, if we if we trust on on such a delicate lay uh as a as an aircraft maintenance or let's say the icing rules, which are also very much safety bound.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we don't on on the passenger side.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the price if we can?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: The price will be I think the ease of travel and also more propensity to travel.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So more passengers.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and also uh you would uh uh I think the technology will also then become more um affordable because it's about scale, production scale in a lot of places.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you if you have to buy more of the same, uh uh then you have more accessibility and affordability there.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think uh and and it takes that friction now of of passengers, especially who those who are not regular travelers, to um Travel in the first place.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Work towards that brighter future.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a great aim for all of us.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: You get protectionist travel and more passengers.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about your own story and how you became involved in the aviation industry.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: As most of us by accident, uh I think no no one, um unless your dad is a pilot, maybe you have a let's say that home homegrown vision.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: But uh um yeah, so I I just uh uh came back from uh uh boarding school in Germany where I was there, and then I saw this new airline starting up and advertising, and uh they required uh they were looking for people who spoke foreign languages, and I um just applied and got a job and started at the airport at uh at the very front end and just woke myself up.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's uh um as for many of us who are in the industry, the attraction is that it's you know, uh world is your workplace, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can work anywhere, um and you um anywhere you migrate or go to change different countries or continents, you still have more or less the same regulation, same framework, uh um, same um let's say very similar safety and security standards, compliance standards.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can actually work in anywhere where you where you feel like.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a huge attraction to the industry that actually if you are up for uh uh and being mobile, then it it's really fun.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh it's a fast-moving uh industry as well, despite that we just were beating ourselves up for the last 10 minutes uh uh compared to other industries.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what gives you the biggest kick now here at Uniload?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: These those years later after the Uniload, uh we we are we are the leaders in our sector.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I what that gives you is also both the excitement of actually changing the the ULD sector as such, uh because we have the scale, the competence, and the means to drive innovation and change for others to follow.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I don't mean it in a in a bragging way, but I think it's it's also the responsibility if you are the largest player industry to make changes for good that benefit the whole industry.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and for us, really that transformation uh uh uh to be uh really data driven and technology driven uh instead of uh um uh pen and paper, and also drive innovation in ULDs itself, that is super exciting to do uh because uh you don't get many opportunities like that in life.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um what's the biggest technological disruptor you see over the next 10-15 years in aviation?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um I think that there's there's a largely if you think about aviation as global, the the one biggest disruptor will be uh how on earth we get more staff.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that will be the the biggest challenge that that I think uh with all the commitments that everyone's made, uh we still have more uh 24 years to go to net zero uh for the industry.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: So addressing the production.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, how do we get more sustainable aviation fuel?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think uh of course what's going on today uh with the fuel price uh itself is a yet another reminder of that we need to speed up because it's uh um it's putting in unbelievable uh strain uh on the aviation industry now, the cost of jet fuel.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I see I think I was reading that at Uniload you're putting in some of the battery devices, the charging technology, but it may not be SAF, but the sustainability agenda is reaching you know all the way across the supply chain, right?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: The difference with Uniload, uh, where we have two big gains uh on on sustainability.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one is that because of all our assets are digitized and we don't lose them, uh we need less uh because we don't uh uh lose uh uh you know units around the network, so we need to produce less.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the biggest difference is that we are pooling our units, uh which means that our large by far the largest part of our customers uh they use our pooled units, which is uh, you know, I can't use the term, but like Uberized industry, yeah, where where you take units 1, 4, 3, 5 there and you take the other units back.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the airlines share the units between them.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the the pool which requires anything between 15 to 20 percent less fleet, uh uh as you would have your own fleet.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that has a huge environmental impact because you need much less empty movements to reposition units for your next flight.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, the the world in ULDs, the the biggest problem is always disbalances, meaning bags going one way and cargo going the other way.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So with pool, uh we we address that issue by sharing the the the uh the units between the airlines who take them on a different market, and because different flows come come from different directions, right?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a huge benefit.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and as the pool grows uh larger and larger, uh we become more and more um competitive on a unit level.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you require that kind of um selflessness, I guess, from the supply chain to be willing to share and act as a cooperative on the unit level.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that that is our our uh I'll say key USP uh uh that we um uh our partners also look for us to uh when they join us is to actually being able to uh share the units, you know, join our pool, because that also gives them almost unlimited flexibility.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I asked that question, Yannis, about biggest technology disruptor, I had my sportsman's bet in my head that you were gonna say AI, because everyone's talking about AI and you didn't, congratulations, you thought differently.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Why didn't you name AI on that answer?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: What and what are your thoughts on it?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that because you asked me for one largest uh disruptor and disruptor, I think AI is already here.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: AI is already here, uh and I think you'll find a lot of companies uh already adopting it.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh will there be more?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Will it mature?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's already here, and and I think what we are we are yet to see it on a big scale in our PLs, but I would say it's not far off.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's it's I'm not sure that EI is still more uh a disruptor becoming as a business as usual, uh, and we evolve with it while SAF is still uh uh we're still so far away from where we even should be in 2026 from the targets the industry set.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, what was it, 10 years ago?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, at least, yeah.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And what would your advice be to someone listening into the this FT podcast who's aware of change in technology, um respectful of its impact, but perhaps a bit confused and concerned about what they should be thinking about and what they should be doing to avoid being left behind?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think for for me, um what I've seen is that um I think we discussed this uh uh before we we started that you have a lot of amazing ideas and a lot of amazing solutions that come.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um but one thing that we always have to remember that for us to be successful, we need to bring all the stakeholders with us.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And aviation is incredibly regulated industry.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh I'm not claiming by any stretch of imagination that that's the only one and hardest, but there are a lot of stakeholders, a lot of state interests.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so technology might be there, but for us to actually see it and experience it in a shop floor or in terminal, it's a long journey.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, unless you bring the the stakeholders with you, I think you you will face a lot of barriers actually uh deploying the technology.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the the tragedy in this is that, as you know, technology gets old very quickly.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if you spend uh years and trying to get through the red tape, it might be obsolete by the time you actually reach the shop floor and it's not valid anymore.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for us, the the what I would like to see the industry is how can we more work more together in terms of uh all the uh stakeholders, especially on the government side, and um to bring the technology adoption more quickly and uh more proof of concept mindset.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh and if it doesn't work, that's okay.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then we get on again.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's fine.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, what what about the ULD itself?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's been around um you know continuity for a long time in the industry.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is it still here in its current guise in 15, 20 years?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh not in current.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I would say the the ULDs have evolved a lot.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um they they do look the same uh on the outside, but uh uh the ULDs have got much lighter than they were before.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Much lighter.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um the ULDs are also now uh you have an option to have fire-resistant ULDs, which was again not an option uh years ago, because the risk of lithium batteries is is is real and it's there.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so you have the fire-resistant ULDs.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um and the same thing you have a lot of uh on the pallets, even the pallet covers that prevent from fire to extinguish.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the industry is very concerned about the uh lithium batteries, and that is true to address that.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: But how I see going forward, the the ULDs will probably continue to go lighter and lighter, uh uh, just like aircraft finding new uh uh uh materials of how they will be made and more resilient.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also in terms of addressing these key security and flight safety risks, uh, because there's always a balance between the the durability of the ULD and the weight and what it is.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So but it it seems like we're it's not much innovation if you take in the short term.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look over decades, there's actually been quite spotted, but yeah, it happens.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and finally, do you think it's um in that journey of the future with that lightweight ULD?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is it a human pair of hands that's going to be lifting our mine and your suitcase in and out of the container, or is it is it robotic?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it will be uh absolutely hybrid, depending on the market, uh, because you still have markets where where let's say supply of of uh employees is is not an issue.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So so and then there is no business case uh uh to buy a Japanese robot, for example.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but there will be markets where this will become more and more acute uh problem, um, and uh there you will see more adoption.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it will be more uh really depending on the market demographics almost, you could say, on this one.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and as with every technology, it's a matter of scale of how affordable it becomes.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yes, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and getting your insight.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for your uh time this afternoon and wish you all the best for the future here at Uniload.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um look forward to seeing you at an FTE event soon, hopefully.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Max.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Good luck at FTE, and thanks for coming.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.