Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Labi Siffre

Transcript

Labi Siffre · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. Since getting his start in the late sixties, Leby
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Siffrey has had an unflinching commitment to writing exactly what
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: he feels. The result was a debut album that announced
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: a singular talent, a British singer songwriter who can move
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: seamlessly from jazz inflected soul to tender love songs, all
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: while addressing themes of love, identity, and justice that most
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: pop artists wouldn't touch. Over the next decade, Siffrey built
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: the catalog that defied category. Still, his nineteen seventy two
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: song Crying, Laughing, Loving, Lying became an international success, and
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: his song something Inside So Strong, written years later in
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: response Apartheid, also became a big hit, revealing the true
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: scope of his artistry. And then there's Igattha from his
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five album Remember My Song that would quietly
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: become one of the most sampled songs in hip hop history,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: famously by doctor dre on Eminem's My Name Is. Yet,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: despite his influence, which instead of waning, has actually grown
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: over generations, Sefrie has remained something of a hidden treasure,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: an artist whose integrity and independence kept him just outside
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: of the mainstream On today's episode, I talked to Labby
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Siffree about growing up in fifties London and the music
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: he discovered that set him on his particular artistic path.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Labby also talks about how he wants music to enliven
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: him and how much it annoys him when people tell
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: him to chill, and he explains why, after decades in
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: the music industry, he's never regretted choosing honesty over commercial compromise.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: conversation with Labby Siffrey Man. So I came to your
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: music through hip hop. I was a big hip hop
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: fan growing up and going looking for samples. I discovered
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: your music a handful of times across a few different
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: using a few different songs. And over the years, some
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: of those songs that have discovered you through have kind
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: of faded away in my in my consciousness, and and
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: and what sort of been left is your your actual
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: real catalog of songs that just every year grow in
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: terms of how much I love them and how much
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I listened to them. And so it was a really
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: bizarre way to discover a songwriter as delicate as as
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: as your as your songwriting could be in a in
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: a in a songwriting, sometimes it's as fierce in terms
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: of social criticism as your songwriting can be. But uh,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad that I discovered you about twenty years ago,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: and and and and so glad that we're able to
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: speak because, like I said, your music is it means
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: a lot. I gotta say, though the British music scene
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: confuses me. It seems like what confuses me is it
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: seems like there were a bunch of different scenes. But
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that there was like a I just
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I'm not so familiar with it, I guess, being from
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: the States. And so I was curious when you were
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: growing up playing music before just before you got your
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: contract to do your first album, your self titled album,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: where were you and what was going on musically?
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Uh? Well, Christmas nineteen sixty nine, Uh, I was in
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Amsterdam trying to see if I could well, just to
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: try and see what would happen if I went to
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: a different country, and I was one of the gigs
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I did was at the parodies. Uh I made I
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: make of friends with a Czech classical guitarist and his lady.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: He and I we did the We did the Paradiso,
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: which was a kind of a psychedelic club, and he
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: was on stage and he played an excellent classical guitarist
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: and there was, you know, kind of smashing your applause.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Then I did my set and it was huge cheers
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: and a huge amount of things. And I came off
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: the stage and I said to him, what was that
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: all about? He said, well, they were they were screening
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Porner behind you and h and and about. Well, like
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I said, that was in That was in December sixty nine,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: and that the and towards the end of that I
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: got a call saying somebody wants to offer you a
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: publishing deal and a record deal. I had a band
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: called Safari up till that moment, and I was on
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: electric guitar, my old Harmony, and for some reason I
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: decided the amp was getting between me and the guitar,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: and I wanted the Turvius to be one just me
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: and the guitar. So I sold my electric guitar on
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: an acoustic and went off to Amsterdam. And I remember
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: the first gig very unlike me, because I was not
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: the most confident personal in the world at that time.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Still probably not, and I asked if I could sit in,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: which I thought was very brave of me at the time,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: and I found myself on stage. It was a listening audience.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: It was the first folk club that I had ever
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: been in. That's one of the things that always amuses
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: me because in my categories, of which there are legions,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: one of them is folk. I don't know anything about
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned. Folk music is Robert Johnson.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah that I know that I know, But European folk music,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, but that's fine, But you know, but I
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: not part of my learning. But it's I think it's
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: probably because I, apart from that I do play occasionally
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: electric guitar, I mainly am seen with an acoustic right.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: And you have to remember that reviewers and the business generally,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, the only way of describing music is to
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: hear it. So people who write about it tend to
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: write in comparisons. They say, that sounds a bit like
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: that person and a bit like that person crossed with
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: that person, and the whole system of saying what the
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: music is just doesn't work. Like I say, the anywhere
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: of describing music is to hear it, so which is
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: why I get soul, flunk jazz was the other one,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: not independent whatever it is. Indeed, indeed, indeed I get
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: about five.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I was reading a Spin article about you, or is
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: an interview with you from nineteen eighty eight, I want
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: to say, and they said, you know, he's he started
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: as an R and B artist in England. That's true,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: you know, But was that true?
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: I started as a Jimmy Reid clone when I bought
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: my first guitar, a four pound ten from Chapels and
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Ealing Broadway, if anybody knows that, I got home and
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: I bought two books. In the UK at that time,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: everybody bought Bert Whedon's Player in a day. But I
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: also got chet Atkins had a by guitar. And I
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: remember sitting on my bed in my bedroom and I
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: couldn't make head or tail either of I just couldn't.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I just couldn't work anything out. But I already felt
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: because from the moment I heard Let's Together by Jimmy Reed.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's known mainly for a big boss man,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: but but the moment I heard Let's Get Together, it
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: was kind of like, I don't know the first time,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know, like and still still for me, the
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: best work he ever did. Hey, Joe the Hendrix, say
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: and all the first time when we when we were
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: working at an is room jazz club in Drury Lane. Uh,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: the first time I heard James Brown, I mean, these
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: these changes.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: For on record.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: It was on the jukebox there we were in the bar,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: you know, after after hours, when the audience had everybody
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: gone away, and somebody put James Brown on and and
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: it was kind of my immediate thought was, he's got
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: it backwards. He's playing it backwards, because as a jazz person,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: I was used to not on the one, not on
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: the one.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a strange emphasis, you know.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: So I was immediately confute, confused, and I knew I
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: really liked it. But but I mean, that was my
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: first impression. He's playing it backwards. What's going on? So
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: so yeah, but like I say, I'm sitting in my
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: bedroom and I but I already felt Jimmy reed and
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: so I looked that, you know, that shuffle and and
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: it went from there, and then I I was, I was,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I was sixteen, and then I put a band together
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: with my I've got I've I had four brothers, the
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: brother just above me, was five years older than me.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: He's he's a Sally responsible uh for a hell of
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: a lot, because he had a really extensive record collection,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: but he only had the best wow in every genre. Yeah,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: when I look back, he had the people who really
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: made every genre work.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Is that your brother who's on the cover of Children
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: of Children of Children?
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's holding me. I'm the baby.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: That's your brother on that.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: That's that's that's calling. And so I mean I could say,
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: for example, that I'm an autodidact. Now, oh yeah, I
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: taught myself bullshit. He had a huge record collection whom
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I like, I say, from Robert Johnson through to Cecil Taylor.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: How does how do? How do you want? Tomass a
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: collection of of of really choice music from America at
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: that time. Like was it easy to get American records?
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean all of us were. I
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: was brought up with the Great American Songbook, and I
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: was brought up with American jazz right the way, you know,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: passing through our Tatum to Cecil Taylor as piano monk
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Miles Mengus. I mean I started out as a Jimmy
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Reid clone, and I had a disturbing piece of information.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: His son clearly the kind of kid who walking down
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: the school school corridor you trip up, because his bass
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: player was his son, who was either nine or eleven
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: on that track, and it was kind.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Of how dare you wait, Jimmy, Jimmy Reid's.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Son, and it was kind of how do you be
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: so talented and be able to do that groove and
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: on that track. I don't know whether it's true, but
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: I was told that his son at the time of
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: that recording was either nine or eleven.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Nine, ten or eleven on Let's Get Together, which was
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: made famous later by I think cant He did like
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: a version that was a hit.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: And oh right, I mean that's that track still living,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: It's that track is a part Wow.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a strange. It's a strange. It's a shuffle,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: as you said, but it's a He has a really like,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: kind of laconic kind of well well, I mean, I.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Mean, Jimmy Reed. I always I also say this about
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: women Morton the composer, although it's a little unfair on Morton,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: but it's pretty much Walton that they both have only
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: one thing that they do, but both of them are fantastic.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I mean to get that shuffle right,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think I've heard anybody else be
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: able to do it right. Yeah, I know.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Keith Richards famously, you know, is a fan of that
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: as well, and he tries, you know, he has his
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: version of it, but it's not the same.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: No, which is one of the funny things about we
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: were talking about genres. I mean, R and B now
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: is kind of what we used to call lovers lovers
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: rock ah and R and B then had muscle now
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: if I mean, I I must say one of the
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: things that well, I do find a little bit is
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: that I keep being told to chill.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: What do you mean explain music?
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I go, you know, you go from music to
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: music and music and it's always recommended because it's music
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: to chill too. I don't want to chill. I want
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: to be enlivenment. You know, I don't. I don't. I
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: don't want to chill.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: You know, I agree, I agree, And you know, people
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: think about I love jazz as well, and people always
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: think about jazz as music you put to cool out
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: to chill, and it's like the first jazz is really
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: it energizes you. You get anxious. Yeah, exactly, exactly exactly,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: you could get wired. Yeah, I get wired listening to jazz.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: You know, I get the most energy I could get
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: from anything.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Clearly, also, they've never heard of David Sampon uh, and
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: they've clearly never heard Paul Gonzales twenty minutes solo chill sorry.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Man mingus, chilling, mingus.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I think Monk is still my favorite pianist. Jazz pianis
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: so yeah. I mean I I like I say, it's
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: it's uh. And of course, of course when he gets
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: up the dance with Charlie Rowse or most most Underrated,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I love that band that those those that that's a
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: great band. And like I say, for me, my I
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: was talking about. You know, I could say I was
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: I taught myself, but in fact I was taught because
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Collie had such like I said, with her, he had
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the cream of of every genre that he bought. And
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: so I was taught by every musician I'd ever heard.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: On that record collection. You don't do this kind of
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: thing on your own, you know. I remember hearing there
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: was a rock god being interviewed and there and he
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: was asked what his influences were, and he said, Oh,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: I don't have any influences. It's just me. And I thought, well,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: you're either a liar or a genius, and I know
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: you're not a genius. You know.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Do you remember who that was?
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: No, I don't remember. Well, it was the kind of
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: person to very quickly forget. So, yeah, I mean I
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: had so, I probably had thousands of teachers.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Can you can you locate that Jimmy Reid blues shuffle
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: thing and you're playing at all because it's funny. I
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: don't know if I hear it.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I I used to play it exactly
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: as he played it. Now I play it differently. Before before,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: I mean before I had my first record deal, I'm
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: publishing deal. On the same day, I had a band
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: call Safari, and we did We did some wood stuff
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: and I arranged several backrack how David's song cool. But
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: because I come basically from the jazz tradition, I've never
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: seen the point of doing a cover where the only
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: thing that changes is the singer's voice. The whole idea
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: is that you're supposed to try, at least to take
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: the material and put you into it. If you've got
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: somebody to put into it. It's to take you and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: make it your own, even if it's not very good
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: your own. But you're supposed to do what you do.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: My good friend Woody who was the drum well, we
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: all met, Woody, Bob and I we met. Our first
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: real work was with a guy called Hamilton King's Blues Messengers,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: which I replaced the Kings. I replaced Ray Davis as
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: the guitarist in that band. And what he was on drums,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Bob was on his Hammond B three.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: And did you know Ray Davies at that time?
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: No, no, I no, And it's actually it's only in
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: the past ten years that I you know, it just
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: came across Hamilton's band and in which the article said
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: that Ray Davis was a guitarist, not Dave Davis, who
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: was the lead guitarist in the.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: King Yeah, Ray a songwriter.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, sorry. I replaced him with Hamilton King's whose Messengers.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I think was in that as well, the drummer of Fleetwood.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: At a certain point it.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Might will have done. I mean Hamilton Hamilton influenced a
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: few people still see him now another giant. Yeah. That
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: The thing about me is that I don't I don't
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: have one genre that I write in. But when I
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: got my contract, my first contract, when they discovered that
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: I could actually hold the stage on my own. I mean,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I supported people like Chicago at the Olympia in Paris,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: me and my guitar and you walk on stage, nobody
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: knows who the hell you are. I had learnt because I,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the gigs that I did
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: once I had my contract were in what we call
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: working men's clubs, and they were also in clubs where
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, I remember one in whole huge club.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: These were places where people went to eat, drink and
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: have a laugh. And I did that for quite a
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: few years, and I had to learn how to walk
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: on stage, sit down and make them be quiet from
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: listen and I this is one of the reasons why
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: I worry about about people kids starting out now. I
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: don't know whether it's the same in the States, but
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: you know, there's not many places they can what I
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: would call learn their trade, which I think is a
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: disservice to them. The first thing that seems to go
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: when money is short is the arts is very annoying
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: and stupid culturally, frankly, But when they realized that I
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: could actually hold the stage on my own. I had
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: years and years, about thirty odd years of forty years
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: of performing like that. Although my albums are mainly with
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: a band with guys and girls playing, I should think
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: probably ninety percent of my performances over fifty odd years
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: have been me solo on stage kind of four guitars
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: and a keyboard. And well, the other thing is once
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: we started recording, because I think the first thing we had,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: the first on the first album, and the first song
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: that we recall a turntable hit. It was a radio hit,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: and every said it's always going to get this is
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: going to chart. There's a song called make my Day.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I find I kind of got channeled into something that
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: I was quite happy with because I could do it.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: It was obviously me. But jazz and funk and blues
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: were not part of that deal. So they may occasionally
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: slip in over those years. But and I'm no, I mean,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: that's not a fault. You know, it's not that that
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: wasn't anything about the music business saying oh you can
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: only do this, But that's just the general trend of
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: how it went.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: But you know, you think about your first three albums,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: the first one your title it's you with the guitar
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: looking very singer songwritery or you know, so maybe I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: could see how they could think folk and then the singer,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: and then the singer and the song is your second album,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: and then you know, the third album is again it's
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: you with the guitar on the cover. So I mean,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I guess I see why the image might People might
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: see the image and think, oh, well, you know it's folks,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: and you know, you got your cat Stevens around and
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: your who are you know, whoever else, and so it
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: fit a niche.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Well, that was also the time when you you were
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: asked could you please smile?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: And how did you take that?
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Well? I kind of, I mean I kind of thought
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: it's not my job to get in their way. They
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: know what they're doing. So it took me a while.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was some difficulty in so far as
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I could only talk music, and the music business is
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: not filled with people who know anything about music.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: There are people, but it's not filled with people.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not filled with them. And I happened
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: to be at the situation where I could only talk music.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: So it was a matter of me explaining and I
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: and I also got into all show me a while
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: to get out of believing that people who were successful
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: in the music business knew about music.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, let's just say you signed with with
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: with Pie Records. Who I mean we were just talking
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: about Ray Davies. I mean, the Kinks were signed a
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Pie and you know, they did not get Ray and
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Davies did not get along with the label sort of
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: felt that they had more of a pop sensibility and
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: weren't weren't interested in his experimenting, you know, in terms
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: of sound and song.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: And I have to say I did not get on
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Right you you allowed it to sort of.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I take responsibility. I mean, I take responsibility for
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: my career.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: I mean I can bitch if I wanted to, but
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: it would be misplaced.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: In retrospect, I've been given a great deal of freedom
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: in so far as at the time. And I knew
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: this very early on. At the time, I was not mainstream.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: It seems like you could have been, though, I mean,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: like even just crying, laughing, loving line not getting the
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: US release. You know, it's like you know when you
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: think like on Warner Repriez, you know, like Randy Newman's
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: getting released and you know who else, you know, some
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: of the Beach Boys more experiment Van Dyke Parks right like,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: and you're like, there would have been there could have
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: been a market for in the US, you know.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I got to say, Vandidike Parks would have been a
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: bit difficult for the I mean would.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Have It's difficult for everyone over here too.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: It just wonderful. And I'm so pleased that Van Dyke
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Parks met Brian Wilson. So pleased because I loathed the
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: surfing stuff. I just thought, I just thought, well, here's
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: another gang of white guys, you know, stealing chut Berry's
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: music and not doing it very well with craping. Uh.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And then of course, if it hadn't been for Parks,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: my very favorite, I mean it. I didn't like the
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Beach Boys until I discovered the Sunflower album and then
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: there was backs on that and I thought, ah, this
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: is what he really does. Uh. And then still my
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: favorite of all the things he's done is this is
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: the song surfs up that album is there's a there's
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: a line in that which ends with the words of
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Children's Song, at which point, on occasion I find crying. Uh,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: it's it's one of my all time favorite tracks, you know,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: along with five Union other's favorite track, but of the
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Beach choice of his work. And then of course they
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: did he and I passed in when he kind of
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: vaguely left the Beach Boys. After recovering, he and Van
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Dyke Parks did a really good album together. But I'm
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: so pleased that they met.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from labby Siffrey after the break.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: What else were you listening to at the time, Because
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, your music really is one of one. It
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: doesn't sound much like anything else. What were you taking
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: in at the time of early and you like Steps
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: in the early seventies, at the time of seventy seventy
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: one seventy two, as you're making those first few records.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: What was I listening to? Ah? Well, one of the
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: things was I felt very lonely throughout my career because
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: I couldn't find people in the UK who were writing
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: anything that seemed related to what I was writing, very
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: much as far as subject matter is concerned, but also stylistically.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: And it was not until I found this is early seventies,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: until I found the kind of I suppose the triumvirate
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: of Brandy Newman, Harry Nilsen and Laura and Iro. Wow,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: it's those three, I mean New York Tenanderberry. Really really
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: it should be one of the things that if you
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: haven't heard this, I'm going to lock you in a
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: room and handcuff you and you're going to listen to this.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: And it was only when I discovered those three that
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I thought that I felt I'd found a home. Wow,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: that I found people who were kind of doing what
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I was trying to do. So, I mean that was
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: that was that was a great comfort to me because
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I did feel in the UK very alone stylistically.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Uh, what was it you felt you were trying to
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: do that they were doing as well.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Funny, it's not. This is one of the reasons why
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I you know, you know the business about me having
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: a hard time in music business. I was very fortunate
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: because my first manager, who's really a real one, was
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: was guy called Peter Gormley, who in fact was also
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: the head of Festival International, which was the who I
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: signed with. And uh, I actually think they looked after
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: me in retrospect because I was never a really huge seller,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: you know, commercially, I was not hugely commercially successful, and
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: at one stage they thought that maybe they put me
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: with certain particular writers who who were making more commercially
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: viable stuff, that it might rub off on me. Of course,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: what's the foolish thing to think. But it made me
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: examine what I was trying to do. I started asking
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: myself what am I trying to do? And I remember,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: rather I won't mention, you know, but this this is
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: a guy, you know, multiple hits and written for outloads
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: and loads of people. And I asked myself the question
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: of well, what am I trying to do? And I
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: came to the conclusion. My first conclusion was, well, they're
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: trying to write a hit and I'm trying to write
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: a good song. Immediately after which I thought, what the
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: hell do you mean by a good song? If five
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: million people or if a million people are emotionally moved
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: by a track that you think is rubbish, hang on,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: that's a good song. What do you mean by a
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: good song? So which is my com was my conversation
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: with myself. You know, that's just lazy, siffy, you know,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: forget about good song. And I finally came to the
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: conclusion that the problem was not a problem as far
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: as I was concerned, was that I wanted to write
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: useful songs, societally useful, said useful songs. That was the
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: conclusion I came. I mean, other people might come to
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: completely different conclusion, but that's what I realized I was
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: trying to do, which was one of the reasons I
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: think they they they were kind of patient because I
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: was bringing in huge amounts of money. And of course
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I was one of those people then who and just
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: about every company has that, they have one or two
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: people who bring in all the money, and then they
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: can take other artists who they think can do well
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: but not that well. But they don't need to do
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: that well because they've got you know, they've got the
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: banc or someone of that of that, And so I was.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I was one of those artists who occasionally had a
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: hit uh and occasionally had a couple of covers, but
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: not a big sell.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: And and and who was subsidizing it was like Olivia
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Newton John who was.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Managed Actually the main the main money maker in Gorney
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: management was griff Richard.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Ah Shadows Shadows, right, yeah.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Then Olivia, and then Dahlia Larvae and for a while
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Cardia Glen Cardier, who I produced, I produced a track
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: which I'm still very very proud of. He wrote a song,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's online and then my memory is
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: going again. We wait, it will come back to me.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Really good track. Uh when the fire dies uh uh.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: And I produced that. It's happened a couple of times
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: when I've heard somebody and thought that's mine, that I
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: got it. You know, I gotta, I gotta produce it.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I gotta, I gotta do an arrangement and produce this
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: guy and uh and and that went very well. They
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I don't listen to my stuff very much, but I
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: occasionally come across things and that track still gets to me.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I so in fact, record record business wise,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: I think I I think I've been very fortunate, and
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: I can certainly think of other people who originally I
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: would would would could have signed with who if I
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: had signed with today, I'd be broke.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Fair enough I signed.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: I was fortunate that I actually signed with a group
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: of people who were honest, and I still, fifty odd
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: years later, worked with three of them.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: One in particular, Bran Good. I did the art, he
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: does the commerce.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Were there other labels or management groups you were speaking with.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: No, I mean I I when what when the call came?
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: You know, first I was publishing and the recording for
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: the contracts up and down that time. I wasn't thinking
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: about anything. I mean, I no, I the business. It
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: would just never have occurred to me. People never believed
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: They say it, eh, god, it's bookshit.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: I never.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Yet. Fame and fortune was not part of my plan,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: not because I had a plan, It's just that they
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: never occurred to me. Yeah, I mean I decided at
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: thirteen that my first decison was I was going to
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: be a bass singer. I mean, I remember college took
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: me for two one hundred Oxford Street, which was a
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: jazz club, and a vibe slayer called Bill Losage and
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: his band were playing, and it was one of those
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: raised stages, and I remember I Holly was standing there,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: and I was thirteen, and I was quite sure. I
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: didn't start growing really until later, so I was still
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: quite small, and I'm looking up and Bill Sage had
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: a girl singer with him. Excuse the arrogance that's going
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: to follow here. I was thirteen years of age and
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: I was looking up at her, and I had two
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: thoughts separated by about two seconds. My first what was
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I can do that, immediately followed by I can do
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: better than that. I'm certain news. I'm thirteen years of age,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: and I just wanted to make music. And the other
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: part of it, the business and the money and all
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: of the fame and well fames another thing. Uh it
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: just it wasn't that I you know, I had a
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: plan or I decided to do this or did I
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: didn't make any of those decisions. I just wanted. I
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: just wanted to be able to earn enough money so
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I didn't have to do a day job and I
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: could just the musician. But anyway, yes, that was my
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: That was my first thing is I wanted to be
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: a I wanted to be a singer. And I mean
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: one of my greatest influences, I suppose as a vocalist
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: probably be the Holiday, would be at the top the
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Divine's era, of course, be Joe Williams, Melton May, Jimmy
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Read Hallan Wolf, Uh, Alan Wolf. I don't think I'll
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: ever get away from Alen Wold, and of course before that,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Fats Domino, who his timing is incredible, The end of
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: every line is perfect. Mm hmm, uh'd something. And of
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: course Louis Armstrong, the first jes singer whose timing and
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: phrasing is an embarrassment to us. All yeah, it was
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: still you know, it's kind of yea, I give in.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: It's like it's like that bark moment, which actually I
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: took quite seriously, the bark moment. I remember buying, uh,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: the partitas for for for solo violin, and I put
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: it on and it was actually had this conversation with myself,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: which was, what's the bloody point? How dare you call
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: yourself the writer of music? What's the bloody point? BArch
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: has done everything, there's nothing left to do. In the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: same way that Miles said of Louis Armstrong, Louis played.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Louis plays everything, including the modern stuff. Now, Louis wasn't Miles,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: but I knew exactly what Miles meant.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: And you know what's fascinating about Louis too, I mean
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: he did fall out of I was gonna say he
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: never went out of side. He did fall out of
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: style a bit because I guess during you know, like
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: during the Bebop era, you know, Dizzy made fun of
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: him a bit, but he always had an audience like
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Louis always had from beginning to end. He always had
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: an audience, which is fascinating to me, you know.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: We also for me as a singer, his timing and
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: phrasing yeah are remarkable.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah what he lacks in and maybe uh, you know,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: some people don't prefer the dam you know as well.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, well, along come, you know, I mean along
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: comes very White. There hasn't been a bass baritone in
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: the charts apart from Barry White. And what another underrated
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: person as far as I'm concerned. What an amazing thing
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: at what great arrangements?
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing arrangements, you know.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: So Louis. I mean I never had a problem with
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: the voice. I mean, you know, one of the one
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: of the one of the frankly I think unfair things
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: was the fact that you know, he was always laughing
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: and grinning and playing around, which didn't go down down
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: too well as far as the civil rights and on
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: the movement. But he was not an uncle Tom No, No, yeah,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: you know, not not at all. If you see some
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: of his interviews, he is nobody's fool.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: No, And I know, like like like I was saying,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: dizzy Gillespie, like you know, would make fun of him
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: openly for for a long time.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Apologize, but easy to make fun of Louis Armstrong's a
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: bit rich.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Point.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Go on, that's a bit rich.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: I'll let you say that they're were going.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: To go along the line of cab callaway on from onwards.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, come on, that's.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: True, that's true. It's a good point. It's a good point. Yeah, yeah,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: one last break and we'll be back with labby Siffrey.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Throughout your career, I mean, have you always been listening
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: to new music as it always been?
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned the Beatles, and that was different. We
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: in my little group. I remember Woody and I. I mean,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Woody is the drama. The drummer played in several bands
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: would be he toured with Sonny Stet Wow and uh.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: He and I we would wait for the next Beatle
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: album because every album, about five of the albums, every
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: album changed the world as as musicians were concerned. I
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: remember he and I we were in Padi Circus and
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: there was there was a very it was a very
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: narrow small shop and it was a music It was
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: a record shop and they had speakers on the outside
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: and they played, and I remember we were standing and
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: we were facing Piccadilly Circus and she's leaving home. Came on.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I started crying, we're standing there where. Yeah, we're grown guys,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: you know, we're toughies. And I started crying, and I
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I purposely didn't look towards Woody because I was afraid
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: that he would be crying too, and then embarrassed. But
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: every but every every album was the world has changed.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: And when I I heard nineteen ninety nine, which I
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: still haven't, I'll never get over it. Uh, my world
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: changed again. Wow. I mean it was like the first
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: time I heard Cecil Taylor my world, the first time
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: I heard on Coleman, my world changed, the first time
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I heard Miles, My first time I heard Bird by
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: the Way. The orchestra, the album with Burden and orchestra
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: sometimes gets frowned upon. He doesn't give an inch on
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: that album. I mean, he just does what he does.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: I think it's a great album.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah I do too, I've heard it being you know,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: oh he's sold out. I mean the same as when
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Bob Dylan. The same as Dylan put down his acoustic
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and picked up an electric guitar. Apparently he was a
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: traitor and he's betrayed the folk movement. Yeah shit, catch up.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: But then again, the artist is one of the jobs
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: and the responsibility of the artists. The artist should always
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: be ahead of the audience. I mean, if you'd have
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: asked the listeners of the world world in the nineteen fifties,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: how would you like popular music to go in the
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: sixties and seventies, you wouldn't have had. Well, all guys
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: with funny haircuts and cheeky chappi is not from New
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: York or from London. How about the northern Liverpool? How
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: about Liverpool? And they're influenced by motown and Little Richard
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: rock and roll, and they kind of get later on
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: into really knowing something about classical music. And for some
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: odd reason they're also kind of link to what we
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: used to call a British music hall. Yeah, no one
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: would have thought of that. You know, the audience doesn't
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: know what it wants of any artists. They think, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: the audience don't know what they want until they get it.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: The artists, really good ones kind of always a pace
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: ahead of the audience. Yeah, and that's what's supposed to happen.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Prince too, where were you when you heard nineteen
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: ninty nine, because you weren't making music at that point,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: or at least releasing.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I I was still making a lot of music, but
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I wasn't really it wasn't exactly like me and the
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: music business fell out. It's just that I realized at
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: one stage that I shouldn't be in the music business.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just I don't fit, and so I
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: kind of kept kind of retiring. And also after I
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: was probably possibly it must be love. No, it was
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: before it must be love. It was sometimes in the
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: second album when people started to recognize me when I
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: went out, and after about three months, I knew I
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: was never ever going to light it really or whatever.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: I just joined, I'm never going I was never going
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: to enjoy that. I mean, I learned how to do it,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: but I, like I say, that was never part of
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: my plan, and it never occurred to me that that
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: was going to happen. I just thought I'd make music. Actually,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I don't even think I even thought about being successful.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, it didn't occur to me that I have
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: the business of being a successful musician. I just wanted
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: to play music.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Was there was there was never a feeling of I
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: want to be successful just to show my parents that,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: you know, look.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: What I've done. No, never, never, no, never.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Did your parents approve of your musical career?
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Of nineteen And i'mre in the hall of our house
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: and there's me with one suitcase, my guitar case and
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: a guitar and doing the I going to be a musician,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: and my father and my mother in the hall. My
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: father is shouting, you're throwing your life away. I quote
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: for the batim. My father is shouting, you're throwing your
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: life away, and my mother is crying, and I and
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: I march out of the house in a I am
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: going to do this. And I walked down to the
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: bottom of the road and suddenly realized I don't know
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: where I'm going. So my advice to people who are
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: going to make a dramatic exit from the family is
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: at least make sure you've got bus fare. I mean,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: when when you say had you got a plan? That's
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: that was? That was how good my plan was. And
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: if it hadn't been for Brian, my favorite brother who's
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: now dead. I walked down the hill, I got to
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: the bottom the street, the main street, and I didn't
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: have anywhere to go, and I don't have any money.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: I called Brian and he had a run room. Uh.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: And the kid schured and he said, well, you better
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: stay with me. So I stayed with him until because
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: he was he was just about to get married and
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: he was going to move from London up to Steptford,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: I think, so I stayed with him. And yeah, he
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: helped me get a job. I mean, I mean I
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: didn't know anything about what should I do. I've got
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: to get a job, I suppose, and he helped me
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: get a home and then my first job in soul
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Ways uh in Beth mcgreen. I just liked boxes around,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: boxes of goods around, which is actually where a lot
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: of the stuff that they had they did. They did toys,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: but they also were the distributor for super Fun, which
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: I think was the Czechoslovakian record company. They're still around
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: h But it was really good quality stuff, you know,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: proper orchestras and everything. But they were slightly cheaper recordings
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: in the UK and other places, so they were affordable.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: There was a Jordie in there who was older than me,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: and I was this kid and he said to me,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: have you taken anything yet, what do you mean, He said, well,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: we don't get paid very much. In fact, I was
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: earning eleven pounds a week and I was living on milk,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: read rolls and the apples. Yeah, that's what I was
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: living on. And and he said, we've got all these records.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: Taste some. I said, it was kind of stealing. He said, yeah, yes, yes,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: come on, and it was. And the part of the
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: stuff was I got Yanachek's Glagolithic Mass, which once again
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: changed my world familiar. I got the Master Sounds. Where's
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Montgomery's Brothers? That's where I got it from the Master Sounds,
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: and a couple of things. I think I only took
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: three or four because it was kind of stealing, stealing,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: But but it was a very good thing that I
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: had because that's where I discovered. That's that I mean,
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: that was my inn to twentieth century orchestral stuff, and
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: that was my inn to wars Montgomery.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those are two strands you can that I can
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: hear through the music. So I can't hear Jimmy Reid
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: as well, but I can hear those things. Yeah.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's funny because before the first album,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: I'd met a writer a fiction called David Leslie, David
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Stewart Leslie, and I read one of his books. It
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: was really good, and he was kind of going to
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: be our manager. He asked me, let's write a musical.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: This was a long time before I got my deal,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: So he and I wrote a musical for children called
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: The Magic Bed. He wrote the book and I wrote
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: the song. Now this is before. This is long before
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: i'd started work on anything like on the first album,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: which was several years later that I that I started
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: on the on the first on those tracks. So in fact,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: by the time I got the deal, I'd already written
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: probably half of the first album, but A with a
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Magic Bed, almost from the get go, Apart from the
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: songs that I wrote in my bedroom before I had
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: marched out of the house grandly telling them I'm going
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: to be a musician. It was after that that I
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: actually kind of got into writing and from the from
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: that first batch, some of which are now bonus tracks
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: on some of the re mastered stuff. They're really good
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: song Wow, they're very mean. When I listened to them,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's very mean, and they're really good
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: and actually surprises me because I I can't really, It's
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: sometimes difficult for me to remember that person. And for example,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Woody who mentioned before the drummer, as I say to
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: all this sunny stick in the bands that we had,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: would he remember things from our past that which is
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: probably a blooding thing. I was going to say.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: You you've had you've kept relationships for a long time,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: so it's surprising me that you kind of can't. And
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: you were in a partnership for I mean what nineteen to.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Well, Peter, Peter and I were together for forty eight years,
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Ruth and I were together for nineteen years, and Peter
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Rout and I were in a manager Tina for sixteen years.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, so very lucky. All in all, I've had
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: fifty two years of love, which is a wonderful thing
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: they both did.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: No, I'm always you know, curious, forty eight years does
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: it ever feel like enough?
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Love is never remard.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Because you hear these things. You hear forty eight years,
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: sometimes you hear fifty years. And when I was younger,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: I used to think, oh, wow, well, you know, it's
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: like a lifetime. You know, should be so lucky, and
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: then you start to get you know, I'm a little
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: bit older. I sort of think forty eight, there's no time,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: you know, my god.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: You know, well we I mean if they were both alive,
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: we'd all still be together. I mean, I mean people.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: One of the things that people get asked is what
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: makes a good marriage. I mean, we were a family
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: of three husbands, you know, when when when Route joined us,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: that question about what makes a good marriage? Uh. And
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: one thing that happens in a good marriage is that
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: you become a tea and Peter and I were a
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: really good team. Uh. And then when Route joined us,
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: we were a better team because anything that two of
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: us couldn't do, the third could.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's how it functioned. That's how we functioned,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and we and it was very clear which what each
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: of us was good at.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Uh, that's how. That's what a good marriage done. You
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: become a team or not necessarily you have to be married,
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: but a good you know, the partners. I mean human beings,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: you know about apart from apart from some notable departures,
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: human beings are I'm very pleased about evolution. I wish
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: it would hurry up and do something about the human race.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: But human and I don't mind the fact that we
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: are genetically programmed at all, but human beings in the
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: main I can certainly think of quite a lot of exceptions,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: have a need to nurture and be nurtured. Unfortunately, more
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: than half of the world doesn't accept that. But that
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: is what human beings are. They are programmed, and hopefully
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: as I grow up that is made even stronger by association,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: finding the right person or something. And I mean I've
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: often thought that the answer to the human problem is that,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: you know, everything does start with the family. I mean,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I'd spent my whole life trying to make one, and eventually,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: when there were three of us, I suddenly realized one
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: day what I've been trying to do for all those
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: years before that I actually done it. You know, talk
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: about you talk about the forty eight years. Yeah, fortunately,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I mean there's that commitment, but it's
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: the business of Okay, So you start with they the couple,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: and that's that family of two. You can have a
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: family too, and then it widens, you know, usually with children,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: and then that's the family. And then as it goes on,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: you include your first cousin, yeah, oh, your nephew, and
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: then you've gon include, and it goes like that until
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: you get to a few friends. One of the things
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: that I just couldn't understand that made me really annoyed
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: when Facebook turned up, what do you mean you're all friends?
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, this isn't your friend. You don't understand, do you?
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: No?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: No, this is not your friend.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Do you want? I think you want that argument?
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: And so you're so. And it occurs to me that
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: if we can, only, if we can only widen the
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: amount of people who we consider to be family, which
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: means that you you have a responsibility to them and
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: they have a responsibility to you. And the more that
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: gets widened, that would be a solution to Are are
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: ever ever annoying as a species? Hubris? Uh? You know
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: we're all number one. All our nations are great nations.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Even some of our towns and cities are great towns
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: and cities. You know, there's a difference between great and powerful. Yeah,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: And if you've got homelessness and child poverty, you are
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: not a great nation. No matter how wealthy you are,
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: you have child poverty, you are not a great nation.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: And you know you can sit on your sofas and
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: in comfort declare yourself to be a patriot and wave
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: your little fat flag. You know, start, yes, start, you know,
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: take life seriously. Unfortunately that is a rarity. Yeah, h yeah,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: which is probably why I write some of the things
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: I write.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Do do you consider your songs part of your family,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: part of your.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: They're my songs. I try and protect them as nice
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: as I can, because well, I mean, there's that business
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: once the end up trying to be useful. And also
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: there's that there's I mean, there's there's the spin offs
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: which aren't aren't intentional, but they just happened if you
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: write a certain kind of song.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I mean.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: One of the things about writing love songs, for example,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: is that you could say that it's part of the job.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: It's actually part of it. It's something that does happen
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: if you do it well. And that is you find
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: yourself saying things that loads and loads of people want
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: to say but they can't. So by the things that
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: you write, you provide them with something so they can
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: say something. I mean, it's it's like an audio version
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: of buying flowers for the love. You know. It's it's
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: because you can't because you can, and most people, lots
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: of people can't say these things and you can say
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: it in song, So it's a kind of gift. And
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: the other thing, of course, is that there are lots
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: of things. I mean, it's always fascinated me that as
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: a child, and I think it's still the same now.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: The advice given is don't talk about politics or religion.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: And I'm from very young. I mean, I spent eleven
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: years in a monastery school. From very young. It seems
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: to me, well, who benefits if we don't talk about
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: politics or religion? Religion, by the way, is politics. Who
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: benefits if we don't talk about the two things which
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: are in fact the two things that govern most things
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: on this planet apart from money. I know, I've written
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: things that very very few people would even dare to write.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: You're not going to find very many people who've written
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: a song like school Days, for example, or a Kiss
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: in the mirror and so. But as far as I'm concerned,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: those things are important. And it also it annoys me
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: because novelists can do it, novelists can address serious issues.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: But about I mean, I always loathed that business. And
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: there's still critics, certainly in the sixties and seventies who
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: actually said no, pop music's not supposed to last. What
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: do you mean, Yeah, yeah, so you want us to
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: write crap and you'll applauded.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's supposed to be disconfection, just kind of for
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: the moment. It's yeah, yeah, it's well, you certainly did
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: the opposite. It's it's incredible how you how your music
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: seems to only pick up steam as it as time
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: goes on. I mean, you know, even just I really
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: enjoyed the movie The Holdovers I was watching. I watched
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: that on a plane maybe a year ago. There's There's
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: there's your song, you know, the title track from Loving Line,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: and then you know, Blessed Telephone now as its whole
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: whole life of its own amongst young people, and certainly
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: these songs are standing the test of time. Yeah.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: Well, my first agent and I remember saying, I I
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: don't know why I came up in conversation. He said
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: to me, I think it was probably see a good
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: song never dies. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry. Now that's
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: how Ericans as well. But I mean, the interesting thing
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: is I've always very much believed in my work. I mean, uh,
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: you know, sometimes you know, we can within the distant
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: past I have thought to myself, Uh, this is a
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: good one. People will catch up. But it didn't happen.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: I mean that was that was the mantra in the older,
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: in the time, in the in the early days of
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: of the Stones and the Beatles, as far as their
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: management was concerned, you have to break in America.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: So it was only when uh dre uh yeah, uh
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: took the baseline I'd written for on for I got there.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: In fact, they took quite a lot of the track. Yeah,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: it was more than basement, uh base. But but that
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: was the beginning of a kind of America, part of
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: American small boat of America, uh, discovering my work and
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: then Candy and and everybody else. So it did happen.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: I wish I'd be a bit more savvy. I hope
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: that young I hope that young musicians are rather more
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it sounds kind of more knowledgeable about
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: the business than I was. I mean, I was fortunate
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: that I was in that regardless when I said, my
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: first deals was with honest people who kind of you know,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: I know it gets this, it does this, and by
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: the way, here's the accounting, this is what we're doing,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: and I hope young people starting starting out are more
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: savvy than I was.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: Can before we go, can I ask you what the
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: the story behind Blessed Telephone is.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: I've done a gig. I think I can't remember this Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: I can't remember. And on well, and I was in
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: my hotel room and a certain person rang just to
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: ask how did how did it? How did it go?
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: And then on. At the end of the conversation, which
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: lasted half an hour or more, I found myself sitting
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: on the bed in my hotel room and picking up
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: the guitar and writing the telephone Wow, I mean that
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: people often ask how long does the song take? I've written?
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean it must be love. I remember
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: we were we were living above the car showroom, and
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: Peter had gone off to work, and the door closed,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: and I picked up the guitar and went to the
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: sofa to work, and I started writing. And I read
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: the first verse and the core and then the chorus,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: and it must be love. And it's the only time
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: I've ever done this. I thought, you have to finish
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: this one, so if we this is that one took well,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: it took a day to complete the song, but it
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: then took a couple of weeks to actually sort out
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: which what goes where. But I mean there are songs
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: of mine that have taken several years to write. You
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: know a lot of people, and there's people online who
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: you know who give this advice because loads and loads
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: and loads of people they get to a stage, they
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: half in a song and can't go any further with it.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you still play? Do you still play?
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: I'm well, I mean, I'm you're you're you're seeing me
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: in my studio? Oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm still I mean,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: I say it as a joke, but I'm not sure
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: it is a joke. I don't be writing on my
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: deathbit I expect.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, Well, it was really great to meet you.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: You know, real honor, real pleasure. Thanks taking the time.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Find my pleasure.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: Indeed, in an episode description, you'll find a link to
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: our favorite Labrysi free tracks, as well as some of
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: the hip hop songs that have sampled his work. You
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: sure to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: Podcast to see all of our video interviews, and be
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record pot.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Record is produced and edited by Leah Rohadse, with marketing
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: help from Eric Sandler and Jordana McMillan. Our engineer is
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is production of Pushkin Industries. If
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: offers bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmonds.