Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 117: Marilyn Okoro: Olympian to Shaping Inclusive Leadership - Navigating Cultural Expectations and Systemic Change

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117: Marilyn Okoro: Olympian to Shaping Inclusive Leadership - Navigating Cultural Expectations and Systemic Change · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what it's also interesting is.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You speak there of being at university and it being a backup.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Now, to what extent was your subject selection based on helping you with balancing your athletic aspirations versus?
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: This is actually a career choice that I want to go on.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: My degree was nothing to do with sport.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: That's one thing I was sure of.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I think I did GCSE PE and I was like I don't want to study this.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: I mean I wish I paid a bit more attention because it would have helped with my career.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: But I studied French and politics at the University of Bath.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: I love languages.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: That's one thing I picked up from secondary school and I chose Bath because I knew it had it's a centre of excellence for sport and I knew it had incredible degree course options and my first choice was actually ideally to do French and Spanish, but they didn't have that option together.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Marilyn, welcome to the show.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: It's great to have you on here today.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you, ryan, thank you for having me on and I'm looking forward to our chat.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: As we spoke last time and I was having, I thought we had a good laugh.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: It was good to sort of catch up with you and connect and really happy to delve a bit more into your career transition and some of the things that you've gone through, certainly to see how it can help others who are listening or watching today absolutely.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we keep having these conversations and athletes keep connecting.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: There's something very special about being able to connect with other athletes that have either been through that or about to go through that and just being able to sort of sharpen each other and also give each other hope, because it can be daunting, you know, we know this, we've been through this, so always happy to share my story whenever it can be of use to anyone else.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Wonderful.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you, and look for Marilyn.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: For those who are listening, who I guess don't know who you are, please tell us a bit about yourself, what you're up to today, really Cool.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I introduce myself.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: My name is Marilyn Okoro.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: I'm a two-time Olympian.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I represented Team GB, team England, over the 800 and 400 as well, which meant I could do the 4x4 relay by four relay.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I'm from Northwest London, stonebridge to be precise, but everyone will recognize Wembley.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: I ran for two decades, which is an insane amount of time considering I'm only 21.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: It's been a journey.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I say it's a journey.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: It's had its incredible highs and it's had its tumultuous lows, but that all forms part of me and has brought me to where I am today, which is now transitioned out.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know whether to add fully, but I'm three years on from my retirement in 2021, where I'd hoped to retire on my terms, as we all do, and go to Tokyo and bow out then, but it wasn't to be.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: But now I work for a global company called Equinix, which is the global infrastructure company for work, and I'm in the HR function soon to join the salesix, which is the global infrastructure company of the world, and I'm in the HR function soon to join the sales function, which I'm very excited.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So making another transition.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: But each season that you go through prepares you for the next and I'm just glad to be in a much better place than I was three years ago and able to proudly say there is life beyond the track or whatever your sport is, and it's an extension of all the things that I learned as an athlete and things that I brought to make myself the athlete that I was.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I'm now able to transfer with those transferable skills into my next career.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Lovely.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: That's a great intro.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Thanks for that, marilyn, and there's so much to pick apart in that opening as well, which right from this impending shift from HR to sales.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I kind of want to start there and I want to say you're three years out of being just purely on the track.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: You've been in a role, working for a great firm, and it sounds like there's an opportunity to shift to sales.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: What has motivated that decision?
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Great question.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm not sure if I was able to share last time we spoke.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: But basically I didn't know what I wanted to do.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: But I know what my values are and I love working with people.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: I wanted to work in corporate because I wanted financial stability and security and I understand you know it's like this, you have to work your way up in corporate and things like that.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: But I also was like I'm not a fresh graduate that I work with now and there were certain non-negotiables and there were certain things that I wanted to hit.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Ultimately, I wanted a career, my next career, because that's what I built off of from Spore and I think Equinix was a great landing pad because they really look at the individual and how you will be a cultural add to the company.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: So one thing about being in the new to career space and university relations space is I had incredible insight to the company.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: You know I was here to learn and listen and I met some great leaders.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I met some great advocates and champions of athletes coming in and what we bring.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: But you know closer to home, essentially my first manager, kelly, and also Lorraine, who's one of my mentors.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: They are women directors in the company that really want to bring along other women.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: So I threw myself into everything.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: That's what I do, but I definitely saw a career in sales and it's all about taking that opportunity.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: When it came and so for me that was February I saw a role that was in London which is quite like gold dust.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: The roles in London in that team don't come across often.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: It was also a team I hadn't heard of yet.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: It was the public sector team.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: And even though I had zero skills I mean zero experience I knew I had the transferable skills.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think I jumped in.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: And then, once I started to research and talk to people and I became this roving reporter, I realized the magnitude of it.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: But I also thought why not me?
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: And I was encouraged, and definitely all my mentors were like go for it, that you've got the soft skills, the technical skills can come later.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: And when I got through to craft demo and then I started to realize I'm actually passionate about this.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I really want to end the role.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: You know it does lend itself to my natural skills of relationship building, problem solving, but also I was relishing the challenge.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: So I wasn't successful the first time around because it was for the NHS account.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: But what I did do in my interview process, I guess, was leave my name in their minds for the next opportunity, which came around a lot sooner than I thought.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: And so September I'll be joining that team and I'm really excited to say I'll be looking after the university accounts, which is a nice transition from where I'm at.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Wonderful, really good.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I tell you what I really like is the roving reporter.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I can see you.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: You know what that tells me is you're doing your job, but you are investigating what it means to move into that different role in people researching and doing things like that.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Where did that confidence come from to do that in a corporate setting?
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Do you know?
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: I think it comes from being an athlete.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: You know we are.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: We just have this boldness about us because you know you're not going to go out into an arena or, you know, stadium of thousands, like hundreds of thousands of people, if you don't have something like that champion mindset and that boldness.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: And I have to say that actually is something that I believe I've had from a young age, growing up.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: You know how I've grown up.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: A lot of it's tied to my faith.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I now understand that's like the glory of God really, but it was an I say an audacious confidence, because it doesn't mean I'm not scared, it doesn't mean I'm not nervous, but there's something I'm after, there's a vision I have and I'm determined to do whatever it takes to explore it.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: And you know what's the worst that can happen I don't get it and something else comes up.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, definitely in the corporate space.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: And actually, since you know we're starting to socialize that I'm leaving my team, a lot of colleagues have said you socialize that I'm leaving my team.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: A lot of colleagues have said you're so brave, You're so brave.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I never saw it that way.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I saw something that I want to achieve and I've gone after it and I wanted to hear from people that were in that space whether in Equinix or getting on LinkedIn much like you did, connecting with me.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: I love LinkedIn for that.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: I love networking because you never know where your next opportunity is going to come from or what you can support someone else with.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: So that's the mindset I have.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I try and surround myself with people who are where I'm trying to go or better than me, so I can continually learn and grow.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of was my incentive.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to have informal chit chats with people to tell me about their roles and anything that I can take into landing this role.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: So, marlena, I have to ask in those informal chit chats because this is something I hear a lot, especially with athletes, informal chit chats are quite hard how?
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: did you know what to say?
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: How'd you kick off a chit chat?
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I guess I've got a gift of the gab, which is funny because when I was younger I didn't talk much at all, and so, like, my career is speaking, which is funny because when I was younger I didn't.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't talk much at all, and so, like, my career is speaking, which is, you know, amazing.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: But, um, I always just start with I want to know that person.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: I want to know what makes them tick.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Why did they choose that role?
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Being an Olympian definitely helps kick off a story.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: People want to know.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: You know what is it like to be at the Olympics and I'm like well, I want to know what is it like to be you and what you do.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: I am genuinely fascinated with people and what makes people tick, and that you know the drive for excellence and success and you know how do we come back from obstacles and failure.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's not.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: I really enjoy talking to people and learning from others.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really good.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: And so now this audacious confidence, boldness, courage that you talk of as an athlete, I'm interested to understand more of that context about where that began.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: So for you, way back now, talking athletically, what was sport like for you as you were growing up and sort of, where did athletics start to emerge as, hey, this is what I'm good at?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Such a good question.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: So down memory lane.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: So I grew up Stonebridge, which is Brent, the borough of Brent in Northwest London, and I always say I was built by Brent and the streets of Stonebridge that made me.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: They're tough streets to be on.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: I'm an eldest daughter, nigerian home.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: My mom, she did the best she could with what knowledge and resources she had.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: I knew a lot of hardship very early on and that has formed my tough skin.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: I guess I felt like everyone was just trying to survive and I guess this audacious part of me was there's something out there.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know whether I watched a lot of TV or whatever it was, I just knew there was more out there that I wanted to chase.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: And again I said to you I didn't speak much.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: So I think when you don't speak out as a kid, you speak inward and I had a lot of creative dialogue in my head and dreams of what I wanted to do, and every day probably changed.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: And then also there's the cultural element as well.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: So you know sport wasn't really a part of that.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Even though there's a lot of really successful black and African and Caribbean athletes, something in our culture tells us that's not a career right, and that's definitely what I learned.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: I was supposed to be a doctor or a lawyer.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: However, at 10 years old, I had this incredible opportunity to go to boarding school, which was a world away from what I knew.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: It wasn't that far away literally, it was just outside of Watford and from Wembley.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: That's not far, but you know, metaphorically I call it the playground of opportunities and that's where I was encouraged to one be a child.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I had a lot of responsibility in the home and I was free.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I felt like it was holiday every time I went to school.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I responsibility in the home and I was free.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I felt like it was holiday every time I went to school.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I have the best memories from school.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: I got to try so many things, whether it's drama, debating languages.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I really loved school.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: It was a community that I needed and that's where I tried sport.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: I played a game called lacrosse first, loved it, got to run everywhere it's known as the boundaryless game, so that suited me to a tee.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: But it was running club that my PE teacher told me to go to, and that's where I met my first coach, george, and he was the catalyst for Marilyn the Olympian.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: He's the one that sowed the Olympic seed and he's the one that made sure not only did I achieve the accolades I achieved, but I stayed in the sport.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: We have an issue with keeping young girls, and particularly in sport, and you know he navigated that so so smoothly, you know, so patiently, and he really filled the gap because I have my incredibly strong Nigerian mama who had her own aspirations for me.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: And so going home and telling her mommy, I've won everything at sports day in year seven, I'm going to the Olympics, she was like, and so I didn't send you to school to run or read your book, you're going to be a lawyer, doctor, you know.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: And yeah, that was the first time I was like, oh, I'm not going to do what my mom's told me to do in this instance, because I believe this is the path for me and I think I'm going to do really well.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: So Maz the negotiator was also born and I said you know I'm going to be excellent at school.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's important, but I think I'm going to be an excellent athlete and that's going to be the road that go down.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: And it was really exploratory.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: I think I was kind of half-minded about it until I got to my final year of uni and it became a reality with making the Commonwealth Games team.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: But until then I was just making sure that I kept up my school and you learn a lot about prioritization and making sure I'd done this before I could do this and it actually gave me a beautiful balance.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: I think that's what I got from school as well, just that incredible balance of trying lots of different things of my personality and seeing what I love and seeing where my passion lay, but balance as well.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: I don't advocate and just doing all sport too early and doing all too academic.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's how my brain's wired as well.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I need a bit of this and a bit of that.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: And so it's interesting then, how or indeed it's probably thought-provoking you mention not wanting to just focus in on athletics, and indeed it sounds like you were.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: You were playing, you were just enjoying going along with the journey and the ride until the moment of Commonwealth Games being selected for that team in that final year of uni.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: So many points to ask, which is to what extent did you continue to have this dream of this is where I want athletics to take me, and what was that?
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: What was the dream for you?
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: So good.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: What was the dream for you?
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: So good?
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: So I always say, like George planted a seed and then you have to water that seed and nurture it and cultivate it.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: And that's how it started, because I almost didn't think about the Olympics in the beginning.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think I went into running because, hey, I want to get a gold medal.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: That was not my initial motivation.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: It definitely became that later on.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: But I was like, hey, look what running can lead me to, look what it's given me in the moment.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: It's given me friends, it's given me confidence.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: It was giving me great car journeys with an incredible man.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: That was my dad essentially is my second dad and I was learning so much from George and he would always talk about Paul Herbert, this one athlete that I reminded him of, and all the things that Paul had achieved.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, maybe I can do that.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: And you know, that's why I advocate for about role models, real role models, because you know, I thought, oh, I want to one.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I think at 10 years old, I just wanted to impress George because he believes so much in me.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: And then you start winning the odd competition and I was like, okay, I like winning, winning.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: So I have to work hard so I can keep winning.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And then it was, you know, creating this identity for me at school and I was known as the fast runner and breaking all the records and so that boost of esteem as well, and getting to travel to the track.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: I think a lot turned for me when I traveled to the track for the first time and ultimately, the biggest thing, it was an escape from a lot that was going on mentally for me behind the scenes.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: You know, when I was an athlete, it didn't matter if I wasn't as rich as everyone else.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: It didn't matter if you know, I was struggling with mental health issues of people at home.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I was just able to be in that moment and run as fast as I could, could, and so I wanted to get as far as I could.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I wanted to chase that excellence that comes with my personality, and the Olympics was a no brainer.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: What's the highest you can do in this?
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: It's the Olympics.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: And so once I locked in and I think I fully locked in when I was at uni, because half of me was like, oh, it may not work because my mom's like doctor, lawyer, doctor, lawyer.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: And as a backup.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I wanted education.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I do like learning, but I think my final year of uni, when I had to make that decision between my dissertation and going to the Commonwealth Games and University of Bath, were excellent.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: They were working with me and they said defer your dissertation.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: And this is, you know, once in a lifetime opportunity, go for it.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, there's always a way, there's always a better way around stuff.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: It doesn't always have to be no, which is what I knew up until that point.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, just making the Commonwealth, my first England vest.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: You know I was stepping into the massive shoes of Kelly Holmes, making the final running with girls incredible legends of 800 and running them close and running two minutes for the first time.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, the Olympics is two years away.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: This is realistic now, so let's go for it.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what it's also interesting is.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: You speak there of being at university and it being a backup.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Now to what extent was your subject selection based on helping you with balancing your athletic aspirations versus?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: This is actually a career choice that I want to go on.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good, good question, because my degree was nothing to do with sport.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: That's one thing I was sure of.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I think I did UCSCP and I was like I don't want to study this.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I mean I wish I paid a bit more attention because it would have helped with my career.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: But I studied French and politics at the University of Bath.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: I love languages.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: That's one thing I picked up from secondary school and I chose Bath because I knew it had it's a centre of excellence for sport and I knew it had incredible degree course options and my first choice was actually ideally to do French and Spanish, but they didn't have that option together with politics.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Actually my first year I did French and Italian and international studies very quickly realized Italian I needed to drop that.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: So then I changed to French and politics.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: What I was planning to do with that?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Not too sure.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: I think it was just to appease my mother.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: But I knew, you know, in the distance law was something I was interested in.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I could probably do a conversion course if running didn't work out.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm always thinking of planned B, c, d, all the way to Z, and I knew that I was in a great environment to pursue my sport and I would have phenomenal facilities, good access to good coaching, even though I kept George on speed dial and, yeah, we went from there there and I guess it was just.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I do love learning.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed the philosophical side of my degree, to be honest, not necessarily getting into the nitty-gritty of elections, but I guess that's where my passion for leadership and, you know, influencing big decisions and which has, I guess, fed into like why I'm so interested in governance and being on boards and things like that.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Now, yes, yeah, so taking.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: So taking it, you essentially did your degree.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: You were bright enough or had the opportunity to get into university and at university you selected subjects that were interesting to you.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: You followed what was interesting language, international studies and once you realised perhaps all of that wasn't gonna, you know, you needed to drop a subject.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: You were then able to, I suppose, position it so that you were still studying something that was of interest and you know, as we'll come on to, I guess, is a part of your life today.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: It's part of your transition in and around the game and around sport, and what was challenging for you in keeping that balance, in making that because that's a massive athletic transition that you were doing from high school to making the commonwealth games team.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: During that university experience, you know, what did you find challenging about that academic focus and that athletic shift?
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the challenging thing is pressure.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: You know dealing with pressure, but there is an element of us athletes that thrives off of that, I think.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: You know, when I look back, people always ask me you know, what was something you would change in your career?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: And it was definitely.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: When I think back to that era, and that's why I'm passionate about transitions, because it was a mega one you so rightly put and I don't think I had enough advice and guidance on it.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: I don't think I had.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: It wasn't clear in my head.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: And this is why I'm passionate about working in the new to career space, because I understand there's so many options.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: How do you streamline it?
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: But I think what I naturally did was go with what I'm passionate about, which is what I always encourage, like lead with what you're passionate about in a I will call it a forest of so many options which I think school gave me.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: That exposure to so much which I took into university.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I was like I want to try this, I want to try that.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: But I chose my degree because I knew it was something I was going to be doing for four years.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I needed to enjoy it.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: I also thrived off the challenge.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I wanted it to not be too far off of law because, if anything, that is kind of something I was interested in and so we just kind of went along with that and I was still at the stage where is the Olympics going to happen.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: So it was my backup plan, I guess.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, insightful.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Now you then had this I guess you made this Commonwealth Games team and I know this isn't, you know we're not specifically talking about, I guess, sporting excellence.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: But I am still curious, because you did achieve the dream, giving away the whole plot here, but you gave it away at the start, with the intro.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: So that's cool.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: So we know you got to.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: We'll get on to that yeah.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: So what was that journey like for you?
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Because you know it's interesting for athletics and I'll say, financially, or living wise, earning an income, finding that balance.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: You know it's not the same question as speaking to a professional football player or basketball player, but I ask you then, it's a case of to what extent did you think about how am I going to make a living pursuing this dream?
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, that drove so much of my life, to be honest, I guess.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll start by saying financial literacy was not my strong point and I know when you grow up in poverty you want to make money.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: You know that was a huge driver and I think that's kind of why our parents are like you need to be a doctor or a lawyer, because these are considered lucrative careers.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: There still needs to be the work.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: You know it goes into it.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: You need to actually be good at it.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: And so again, I was like if I'm choosing sport, I need to be successful.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: And what does that look like for me?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: You know, being the best and making money.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize it's really tough to make money, especially in the sport that I chose.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize you, you know you have to, you know, almost think like an entrepreneur and a CEO, and because I didn't have people around me that had done it before me.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: So I guess I was kind of pioneering.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: But one thing I did have was a massive ambition to be successful at whatever it is.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: I put my mind to that's champion mindset that I talk about, and so I'd grown up with a lot of no's.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: You know you can't achieve this, you can't do this, and so often when I am faced with that I want to just turn it around.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I want to say, well, why not, why can't it be me?
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Why won't you know?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Why won't I achieve that just because someone else hasn't?
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna try.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: And I think I was quite naive because obviously the main role models I had were in different sports, like tennis, and it's a very lucrative sport and you know, you see football.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: But also, I guess, in track and field, the stars that I was seeing because they were winning, they were gold medalists, you know the Chris Akabusi's, linford Christie's, they were making a lot of money.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: So you think there is money to be made in this and I just chased that.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: But you have to have an action plan, you have to have the right people around you and that's perhaps what I would love to have changed.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: If I could go back and making sure that I don't know whether it was having the agent around me or whoever was my board around me had the same goals as I am, because I had people around me, but I guess their visions and mine perhaps were not aligned, and I'll say that because they never asked me what my goals were beyond what I did on the track.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: They never really looked at what does Marilyn want out of this beyond running twice round as quickly as possible?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Now for them.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Financially, they were doing well off of me.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: So I don't think I don't remember having any conversations about my earnings, investments and things like that with any of my team, which is a big error.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a gap.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Right, it's good to have this conversation about what do you want to be off the field, off the track, Indeed, what impact do you want to have and what sorts of things did you explore to use your brand to help you with career, with your financial well literacy, but also sustainability?
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: If I'm honest, during my career, none.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I think these are all things that I've learned in the period of when I was deciding to retire and then have really maximized my jump on now.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: And it's a shame, because there's so many things that I do now that I should have started when I was still competing.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Had I known better?
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: And I always tell you know, young mentees, you know, start with the end in mind, because there's so much that you can capitalize on now.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: That will set you in good stead for when you do retire.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: As far as branding, I had no idea.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Like I do have a cousin who works heavily in that area and she was telling me things like get a YouTube channel and do it way before it all took off, because that was her industry and I, you know, I'm like wow, she was so right and but when you're competing, you're just laser focused and you think you need to do this and you need to travel, you know, and I wasn't still, and that's where you need the team around you, you know, even as a speaker in terms of that, so should have started all that stuff way earlier.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: But you know, once you know better, you do better, and that's why I try and pay it forward and, you know, encourage other athletes, because I still see the same patterns.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Now I mean it is a slightly.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a very different era in terms of social media and everyone is you know it's realized that actually, yeah, I'm a brand and if I'm going to make some money I need to own this part of it, and you know there's less and less need to have an agent, as it were.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I think we put everything in my generation onto the agents and expected them to just make us money, also taking most of it.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: So it was tough yes, yeah, you again raised some fascinating points, I guess, around that brand.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Curious how you say you recognized it as you were starting your career transition off the track.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: So what was it then that, I suppose, started to spur this view hey I'm, I'm transitioning out of this, now I better do something differently.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: What spurred that thinking?
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, I could not tell you where my mind was when I think the the overwhelming feeling of failing and being a failure was where I'll start, because it it was.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: It's a bit nonsensical, like obviously I'd achieved this, this dream, right, and I ever traveled the globe and hit so many of my goals, but the one overriding feeling was like I failed and I think I wasn't fully understanding my worth and what I had done and how I could propel myself off of that, because it's all very well me saying I should have started all this stuff then.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: I may not have wanted to start this stuff then, but I could have prepared and I could have set myself up, but I felt like I hadn't achieved.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: What did I have to show for 20 years in a sport?
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: I know that was my bit of my trauma talking and some disappointments I'd encountered along the way, but it did not erase all the incredible things, all the incredible people and connections and accolades.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I had achieved things, but it was.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I hadn't maximized them, and I'm doing that now, and so I say that to encourage any athletes that feel that way, because I was far from a failure, but the mindset we have it's like excellence, right, and it's like tangible results to show X, y and Z, and I felt like a failure, because I think what I hadn't fully understood was that what success looked like to me was not struggling anymore financially and being financially free, and I was actually in my biggest financial mess.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I'd made money and I'd lost money and I feel like I was being stripped of everything and discarded.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: And again I didn't fully know my worth as an athlete.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: And that's what I wanted to add on to what I was saying about not speaking about financial literacy and understanding the value of what I brought.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Even now, navigating I mean, I'm now pretty confident, but navigating discussions about fees, you know, for appearances or talks you know I used to do everything for free and you know that mimicked how I was when I joined the Sporks.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I was just like, oh my God, I'm so grateful to be here, I'm just so glad to be here.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: But actually, you know, when I go and do a talk, whether it's 10 minutes or an hour, it's never just 10 minutes or an hour.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: It's years of my journey, my pain, my experiences, my highs, my lows.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I'm taking you on and that's become my expertise and there is value in that and I know it because people pay for it and ask for it.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: So, understanding and navigating that essentially the brand of what you have to offer, and I've upskskilled myself.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I now no longer know it's not enough to just go and waffle for 10 minutes.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: You know, I want to leave value, I want to make sure people have access to me.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I want to share my skills and stories and journey and often there's not a price really you can put on what people get from connecting with something that resonates with them, from my journey.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: So that's massive.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: You started there by saying you started from a point of failure, almost as if the main goal you had entering athletics became winning right, became winning, getting to the Olympics.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: You know that was it.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: And that almost put aside some of the other opportunities of that financial security and they're kind of separated.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, i'll'll keep running, I'll do the financial bit, that'll come.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: I've done uni, the rest will follow.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: But what you have realized and put in practice now, putting and you are now putting into practices, actually the two of them come together that success on the team, the Olympics and that financial security.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Had you been exposed to certain things at that time, you'd have figured out how to pull the two together, leverage on that brand or amplify the brand, commercialize the brand in the right way.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I like that you said in the right way, because it's not hard to make money in the wrong way.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: And you know, when you are someone that is not willing to compromise your morals, values, beliefs, it becomes a bit trickier because you do have to say no to certain things.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: There were a lot of quick fixes I could have gone for, but I wasn't willing to compromise my faith, I wasn't willing to compromise my integrity and who I am.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: For a quick fix, you know I wanted, I believe.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: You know it was hard, but it's going to set me off on such a good trajectory.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: I'm, you know, beyond sport and you know the times when I looked back in the beginning, early stages of my retirement, I was like, oh, why am I so tough headed, like why didn't I just?
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: You know, might have been easier that way.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: And then I remind myself, easier isn't always better, you know, and if it's easy, then everyone's doing it.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: So is it really easy?
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: What are the types of opportunities you wish you had available to you at the time, and what are the types of things that were available that you're like?
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to do that, because that goes against my values not sure how much I can divulge, but good question.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: I think you know the difficult conversation I always have with athletes is around sponsorship and access to the rooms.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: That can you know.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: You just want to do your sport and live life and actually when you talk to track and field athletes and you ask them how much do you need for a year to not have to work alongside and prepare for that championship, it's not that much.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: We say on average 30, 40k to completely just focus on your sport or your physio.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: And you know camps and things like that, you know, especially in London, and I think we never really thought like, okay, let's break this up and perhaps have this sponsor that believes in me in this way and will sow into me here, and then this sponsor can cover flights and this sponsor can do this.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think, just understanding, navigating those conversations and networking and meeting different stakeholders who will invest in you as a person, not just what you're doing in your sport.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Obviously, all relationships are two ways and there has to be something that you bring a value to their brand and that they can align with.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: But ultimately they first and foremost respect what you're doing as a job as an industry.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: So that's you know probably why you even come across each other, but if you can show value to them through what you're doing, it's often a win-win.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: And so I think being exposed to more of that, you know, is this question of elite, being an elite athlete.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: I often struggle with it sometimes because, you know, I've had times on funding and I've had time off funding and I like to think I was elite in both scenarios because of my mindset.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: When I was on funding I was considered elite because I was on funding and I'd won medals, but then I was off funding after I'd won medals, so I was suddenly no longer elite because I wasn't performing.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: So I do you know I'm like and you know, so I do you know I'm like, and you know COVID was a beautiful example of this, because in COVID you couldn't necessarily bop to your local track anymore.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Everyone was, you know, in our silos, isolating and training on their own, and there were certain centers that were open and they had.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: They were given a list this was in athletics anyway a list of athletes that could access and who couldn't.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: And I was in a real conundrum because I was like, technically I am not on that list but I equally could go and make a phone call and get the keys to that track whenever I wanted.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: So it just kind of for me, skewed, this whole elite mindset and it's some a conversation that I have a lot because in our sport you've got the upper echelons, the 1% club, who have these medals, who the media highlight and amplify, and then you've got the next tier, which makes up the majority of the landscape, and they've made teams.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: They've been on TV, they may not have hardware, they may not be the household names, but they train just as hard.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: They alongside you know a really difficult schedule of competing and you know all that stuff.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: I feel like the main thing that differentiates the two groups is one group, can you know, has more rest.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: You know, essentially, and I remember feeling like I started in that second camp I described and, and then I got thrust into the 1% because on account of becoming a medalist, and then I was no longer deemed that and kicked off again and back to working however many jobs and just doing whatever I could to survive.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: And through all of that I like to think I was still elite because of my mindset, because that's what got me there in the first place.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Well said, I agree, fully, wholeheartedly agree, that elite mindset.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: If it's forgotten, the task is to get it back, because that's always part of you, I feel.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Once you've reached those highs, once you have pushed yourself physically and mentally to that elite level, to what that elite level is, mentally, you can always do it.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: You can come back to that again.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Physically slightly different matter, our bodies move at a time, but I think mentally we can that way, to that level right.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: So look, I guess that moves sort of eloquently to what became then, I suppose, the end of your athlete, your elite athletic career and that transition out your three years, through that or into it, as I would say.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: What was that change for you like?
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: When did it begin and, in fact, what was different?
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: At what point did you say, okay, I am elite athlete.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And at what point did you turn on and say, okay, I'm no longer an elite athlete?
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: What shifted and at what point did you turn on and say, okay, I'm no longer an elite athlete?
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: What?
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: shifted.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Well, if I'm honest with you, it's only kind of.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Now I can confidently be like I'm a former athlete, can't let go of the Olympian.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: I don't need to, we're all Olympians.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: But the athlete part because it was so ingrained like, this is me.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Everywhere you go, people call you athlete, like it's almost like comes before your name, and I used to be really touchy about it when I was training in America.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: I spent four years training in Florida under a US coach and he always used to say my athlete, my athlete, and I was like I've got a name, you know, and obviously there was more figure when you were doing well, my athlete, the claim of you, and I just internally struggled with that.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: But I think it was because of the onset of what I was going through.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I was in America from 2013 to sort of the end of 2017.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, I could tell there I was not hitting what I needed to hit, to perform as I wanted to and to get back on track.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: I was experiencing these big blows in terms of injury and I was really struggling financially towards the end and I was like I know what it took for me to get to the Olympics and to perform at my best and I'm feeling extremely handicapped right now because I don't have those.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Am I now bordering onto what I said?
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be in that, being that delusional person that is chasing a dream?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: That's not realistic.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And I don't fully have the plan, because those are the two things when I'm goal setting Is this realistic and how am I going to achieve this?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, I just started to spiral.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I think you know I always say I retire.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: I made the decision.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I committed to the decision in 2021, february when I did my announcement, but I started thinking about it way before that.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: I think you first challenge it with.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I can come back, I can do this and I got further and further away from one of the performances and I know we talked last time about the stages of retirement that I've coined and there was the logical one that I was really trying to suppress.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Logically, this doesn't make sense and I don't know how I'm going to support myself because I am so broke.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: I hate to use that label, but I was but then I was like it's okay, I will run and I'll make money, and I started to become like a gambler.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I feel like you know that mindset of you.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Know, next, one more year I'll put, I'll try one more time.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: And each race, each season, I was just taking myself a hundred steps back and then there was like the physical side of it.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Again, I was getting like these crazy hamstring tears.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: You know, 2016 was so, so tough for injury.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I tore my hamstring off the bone Like, but again that comeback queen mentality, I'll be back.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: How I couldn't afford the physios that I needed.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I couldn't afford the treatment.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: I was away from home.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: This just didn't make sense.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, I've got a job at the university, okay, great.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: So I'm working full time trying to train racing.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: When's my body going to recover?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: And I'm carrying an injury.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: So the physical side really was not adding up, but I'm strong, so I'm going to come back Right.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: And I, you know, really ran myself into the ground.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Burnout was so, so real and I got tired of being in a cycle.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: So I eventually came home and I thought, let me surround myself with the people.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: So, okay, I've got access to good.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: You know, at least in the UK people knew me a bit more so I could get, you know, sponsorship here and getting access to different, you know, technology that was the medical profession had moved on as well and I was like I think I can do this.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: You know I'm going to do more speaking engagements and start to connect with people that will sponsor and buy into this journey.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: And people know me and I got really exhausted, you know, chasing this dream literally more so with my head than my heart, because I now also was trying to prove people wrong, because also there were people that were like this girl is, we thought she was crazy and maverick before she's intensified this, and so that was fueling me as well.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: But you know, there comes an almighty crash and it happened and it wasn't as dramatic as I thought it was going to be, because I'm a dramatic person, right, I just remember 2020.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: You know I was like gosh, this isn't really how what I love about running anymore.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: I've got no one really around me not really.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: You know, I had some lovely people.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I was living in Wigan at the time when I first came out to America.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I went to Wigan to try one more time to get to Tokyo and the life.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: You know, I was training a lot of young kids and just I loved seeing their enthusiasm and why they were running, but I wasn't in that same space anymore.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: I got really involved in the welfare side of sport and you know the other side of sport that you didn't necessarily see as an athlete.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: My my role in america as director of operations kind of helped me see that as well, working a lot with supporting the structure of the team and working with the athletic directors and putting on track meets and advocating for the team, and so this started to draw on me as well.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: And I remember the end of 2020 I went for a run around wembley.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: I was home for Christmas and I had.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: I was like wow, I'm actually in good shape, but I don't want to run anymore.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Um, and I took off my trainers and I was like I don't care if I put them back on.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Um, so what kicked in?
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Then I was worried about what everyone's going to say Am I just?
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Am I being lazy?
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I'm so used to being so driven and like push, push, push.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And I just was like no, I just I actually don't care anymore what anyone else thinks.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I, marilyn, have done everything I can and there's nothing.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Tokyo has been deferred.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: I just don't care anymore.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: It's that bad.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: And I, you know, I did what I normally do.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I'll give it, you know, a month to think about it.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I prayed about it and I felt God telling me like you've done everything I've, you know, I've sent you to do.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Like you, you don't need to prove anything to anyone.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: You are fearfully and wonderfully made and there's so much more I have for you.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: And I was just like I don't see that, but I trust it.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I trust it.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: And uh, so yeah, I gave it about a month and then in February I was like I started getting excited about, oh, there's life beyond this.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: And I was starting to, you know, connect with different networks.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: And that was one of the beauties of, uh, the COVID era, like you just could connect with everyone online.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: And I remember doing an NLP and life coaching course with a company in Australia and I was having these midnight sessions and, yeah, just loving all early morning, you know, coaching calls.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, I'm going to become a speaker, I'm going to do this and all this.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Suddenly I just had this burst of energy again when you've been so tired emotionally for so long.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: That was really exciting.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: And then I announced my retirement and I wrote a letter to track and field and you know that was quite reflective and I started to really get excited about what life beyond sport could, could look like and did my announcement and it was received so well, so I knew it was the right decision.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: But I hadn't really prepared myself I don't know how you do for what would come a few months later, which was when Tokyo started, and I just hit this almighty emotional wave and it was random because I was watching, like taekwondo and you know, skateboarding, listening to the journey of these athletes and I was just crying and crying and crying.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, I did fall into a depression after that because it's grieving, I was sad, I was really sad and I was alone.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: And it's part of the process.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: So those three stages know stages the logical, the physical.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: I even put physical first because your body will tell you a lot, whether you listen to or not, in my case is a different matter physical, then the logical side and then the emotional part which will creep up on you and and it's.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: It wasn't just the fact that I wasn't at the Olympics I didn't want to be, but it was also just opening so many boxes that I'd closed and just ran through or ran over, you know, this massive cavern cove that running had become for me, any issue I was facing for years, just chucked it in the box, closed the lid and kept running, and now it was open and there's no way of shutting it because I wasn't going to run again.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, those open and there's no way of shutting it because I wasn't going to run again.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, those are three stages of retirement.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, eloquently said, and I think the beautiful thing about it is as you go through it.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: You highlighted the challenges and the thought processes that you had to go through.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: What strikes me is you know, I know you moved geographically.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: We spoke about the team, that support structure around you.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: What did you have around you?
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: To what extent did you feel you were supported to go through that transition?
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so good.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: And it's a key thing, I think, with me.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: I grew up in a dysfunctional kind of home life.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: I grew up in a dysfunctional kind of home life, so that typical support that you get from a mom and a dad you know whether they're together or not.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: You know that was just not.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what it looked like until I went to boarding school and I saw like family units and everyone's family's different right, but I learned very early to bottle things up and to keep in, rely on myself.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: And you know, actually, yeah, if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go together I mean if you want to go far, that far you go together.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: That phrase we know from Maya Angelou and and I was very insular and very like headstrong and I can do this and I kind of kept that shell for a long time and it sets you in good stead in certain aspects, but in other aspects, that accountability and that vulnerability, you know I didn't really delve into it until quite late and I think you know, for me, with my spiritual background as well, community is what I say running always gave me and now having my church, family and that community and my spiritual mentors.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: You know, I understand, you know, and ultimately my relationship with God first and foremost, is such a net that gives me so much boldness, you know.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: But I think you know, before I really kind of became as strong spiritually as I am today, running represented that for me and I had George and he was like he shielded me from so much.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: You know, and I believe you know, god put George in my life for that reason and he taught me so much and he gave me this confidence.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: You know, perhaps maybe that's what people's parents do for them, or their first teacher or any mentor they have in their life.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: And you know, I go back to that transition period of high school to uni.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: That's where I kind of lost.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: You know the ties with George, you know, because I moved on to the elite world and I think that's one relationship I wished didn't get severed so early or so severely or so abruptly.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Now so much played into that.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: You know how coaches can collaborate better and not feel like they're losing their athletes and things like that.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: We see that a lot when athletes go to america.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Um, you need kind of all layers of you know.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Different seasons of you, george, have nurtured me from a 10 year old girl till 21.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Like he had so much intel on me that would have been useful for, you know, my next coaches.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, you know, I would say support system was not, as it's not what I would want for today or what I have for today, you know.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: But as an athlete like I think it's really important that you have people that, yeah, that can advance you in terms of your skill sets and your sporting and athletic ability.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: But you also need the people that ground you and know you as a person and know just from looking at you what's going on or if you need to talk, and that you feel safe enough to share, because there was a lot of things that I bottled up and didn't share and didn't say, and then it would play out in my head how I thought it would be.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: I'm quite intuitive and I quite see, I see things ahead and I like to erase as much as possible.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: You know obstacles and issues, but being able to voice those out loud, you know you can get that person that's going to say, hey, come on, you're overthinking here, because I was always an overthinker, or someone that said have you thought about it from this angle, especially because as athletes, we're emotionally intertwined with everything that we're doing and also quite tunnel vision.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: So it helps having those people that just have that, maybe that bird's eye view, or that they're not attached as emotionally, and I think that's what I didn't have.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: I just had a lot of people that were riding the same you know, riding my coattails and it mattered.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: My performance mattered to them and and that's okay.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: But I needed someone that cared about my soul and who Marilyn was as a person and hey, if I didn't want to run that race wasn't going to ignore me for three days because you know, I cut to their paycheck as well.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: You know, we're seeing a lot of athletes rise up and say, no, this isn't serving me, and that's okay because ultimately it's for, you know, and it shouldn't be.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: You know what I found out?
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: It started to become which is another thing that really fueled my retirement decision was athletes taking their own life because the pressure was too much and they didn't feel that they had any other option but to take their life.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: And for me, my heart and my love for people will always transcend performance.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: And when I read those stats I was like I feel terrible and I'm going through my mental health battle.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: But it will never come to that, because I know I have my faith to keep me strong.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: And I know, even though I felt isolated, I knew there were people out there that cared.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: I just hadn't shared, you know, no one knew what was going on because I could keep that mask on.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: And so that's where the holistic side of sport started to become the real driving and focus for me when you then detached.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: So sport played that role of giving you freedom.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Running it gave you the chance to to think or, to an extent, to bottle up or box up problems and things like that connection to sport was still important.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: How?
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: How have you now, as you've stepped away from being the runner on the track, how have you maintained a connection to sport?
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: a lovely question.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: I love connections and that's one thing that sport gave me like incredible network.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Um, I was feeling quite bitter about my sport in particular.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Um, I know I've told you the Maverick Maz title, but I don't.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: I don't think I really had time to delve into why, but I felt very blacklisted by my sport, I felt very abandoned and I'd seen this pattern right.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: I'd seen a lot of athletes from you know, the generation before me kind of, or even my generation, and that fallen away from the sport and either forgotten or just don't, are not involved.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: And when I worked in America, I would go to track meets and I was you meets and I got to go to these incredible NCAAs and all the conference meets and one thing I saw was former athletes really present, coaching the athletes, and I think there's just something incredible about that mentorship and that leadership and giving back to your sport in that way and you don't see that as much you see it in football, you don't see it as much in track and field.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: And I've just been to the London Diamond League and it was so nice to see, you know, some of my teammates there who brought back such happy memories of my sport.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: And I said to myself I know in this moment I feel hurt, it's like a breakup, but I'm not going to feel like this always and also, what can I do to change it?
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to stay in touch with my sport, just like not choosing GCSEP or A-level PE or a degree in sports science.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: I knew I didn't want to work in it just yet, but I wanted to stay in touch and I thought what am I passionate about?
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Governance?
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: And so the PFA had paid for me to do the effective board member course, which I was really super grateful for.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And I was on there with a load of footballers and hearing similar stories and I thought the only difference between me and them is they have more money, but it's still an issue.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: A lot of the things that were coming up and I was like so money is not the thing I need to.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: You know, of course it's been an issue in my life, but the issues, the root cause, it's about getting seats at the table where these decisions are being made, and so you know I use that course as leverage to apply for roles.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: Initially I was applying for random roles, you know, like boards of different charities, and then I thought, no, let me make an impact in my sport and get to know the landscape and also, hopefully, be someone the athletes can.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: I wanted to try and reinstill hope and trust in the governing body between them and the athletes, because I've lost trust.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: So let me regain it and be that person Like if people see me on the board and they do they're like rah, you're on the board because they know how vocal I was about how I felt hard done by and some of the injustices that I'd faced that still go on today, by the way.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: So that was my way of staying connected still go on today, by the way.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: So that was my way of staying connected.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: And then I thought, if a role materializes because I also realized a lot of the jobs in sport were not high paying or high enough paying for me to move back to London and et cetera, et cetera so I'd made that decision to go into corporate.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: Now, if in corporate I can help bring athletes in which I get to do now, it's a bonus.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: But that was my way of what's the word?
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: Making amends, making up with my sport, but also regaining trust, not just for myself but also for the other athletes, and being that real role model.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: And it takes a while because I got a good understanding of why our sport is so messed up and I have to say in the beginning it was quite traumatic.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: But one thing I did see around the table was a bunch of people with incredible careers and journeys and skill sets that I could learn from.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: But also they were keen to hear what I had to bring in and I felt like, okay, let's make athletics great again.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: And being on the UK board, I realized the difference between this kind of elite mentality.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: But then I also get to be the nominated member on the England board, which realized the difference between.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: You know this kind of elite mentality, but then I also get to be the nominated member on the England board, which brings it closer to home.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: We're talking grassroots, we're talking club, we're talking all the different stakeholders and you know England is one of the is the biggest home nation.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I have a good balance and you know things like help setting up the athlete panel and helping with recruitment and making sure we have the right thinkers and visions.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Not right thinkers.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: We want to bring cultural diversity and diversity of thought.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: But I guess that align with the core values of what we're trying to do and also that a reflection of you know that we're serving the community well, because we have a good spread of different mindsets around that table.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: So I mean that's great, that's a great way to give back to your sport.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Like you say, making amends, the, the maverick um coming, you know, trying to make that change but being part of the system so rather than being on the outside.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: But it's, how do you make that change from the inside?
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: And wonderful, using your experience to do so yeah, and I always.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: You know there's a quote that someone pulled out that I said um, I didn't need a system that was made for me, it was a system I needed, a system that included me.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think that was a big statement for UK for taking me on showing that commitment to inclusivity, because sport is one of the biggest, most powerful tools we can use for inclusivity and inclusion.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Doing it from the inside, I felt, would be better than I had thought about.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Let me just go and be this superpower.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: No, but I don't think I think again.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: Going back to that quote, you know, if you want to go fast and often it's fast to a crash go alone.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: But if you want to go far and you know things that I want to change, they are way beyond probably my lifetime and I want them to be lasting and sustainable.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: So you need to come together and do this collaboratively.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, you can't be enjoying it.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah yes, but there is.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: There is a trend.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: The trend that I hear with you is for many things, the first time is no and no, you, you're not being allowed in.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: There is a sort of natural barrier or challenge that you, that friction that seems to give you a bit more.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm going to make this now.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: I am going to get through not being selected first time, not getting the role the first time and having to go back again, or perhaps have patience, perhaps to learn and say, well, I've come back even better Now I know what it is.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: I, well, I've come back even better now I know what it is.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going to come back better than that.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Do you, do you think if things opened up for you in this, in your, even in the transition after sport, you think if everybody just said, hey, marilyn, here's the plan, do these things and off you go?
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: It's a question I'm asking many athletes now do you think you'd have done it?
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Or do you?
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: Do you think you're looking to run uphill?
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Do you think you're looking for that hard path, because that's what you had to go through to be an athlete?
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: that is so funny.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Listen me, naturally.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: If I could just run the world from sitting on my couch couch watching reality tv all day, I would like.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: I love a soft life, but that was not.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: That was was not.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: That was not my portion, that was not my portion.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: Um, I say I am the laziest hardworking athlete that exists.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: Um, but no, I think, you know.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: No, I think that from day one there was, there was, I think, those that are called to achieve great things and I believe everyone is is whether you can one step up to and answer the call and you won't allow fear and doubt and all the stuff that life throws at you to hold you back or to stop you.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Again, I talk about being fearless and that's not that you're not going to fear stuff.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: It just means you choose fear less and you still do it.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: You know and that and that there was so many barriers in front of me from the jump, from birth.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: You know my mom was not supposed to have a child at all and then she got pregnant with twins and my twin brother didn't make it.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: And you know, just from a young age, a lot of adversity.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: And I think not that I choose the hard path, but I can.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: I God will never give you more than you can handle, and you know, not that I even thrive off of it, but I do in the moment.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: And there's one role that I had I was a duty officer for a charity that supports the homeless community.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: I realized how, just innately, I was designed to deal with, like in the moment, pressurized situations.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: And you know how are we going to find a solution to this problem?
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the problem.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Let's prioritize what needs to be done to get here.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Um, and you know, I think that's how my brain is wired and so I do relish, I always think, I always laugh at myself like I'll be given a task and there's a certain amount of buffer deadline that I'll give myself, but there is an element of the last minute.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, let's get it done.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: Um, that I that I really thrive off and I think that's the athlete in me.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: But you know I can't.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: I can't, um, underestimate the lessons and how, you know, sometimes things just don't work out, no matter how much planning and preparation.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: But it's your response to things and much like my spiritual walk, you know you can only control the controllables and that's, you know, staying.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: You know you can only control the controllables, and that's, you know staying.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: You know spiritually sharp and you know realizing that things are bigger than myself, and so whatever's for me is for me.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing I learned in life was that you know there's a path that I'm supposed to take and that's for me, and anything else I don't achieve it means that it wasn't for me.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: And sometimes the biggest, hardest thing is waiting, and I've learned to relish the wait because so much comes from that.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: And I was struggling for 18 months when I knew I needed to retire and I didn't know how.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: There's so much that I bounced off of now.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: From that 18 month period I learned so much about myself.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: It's very easy when you're a runner, metaphorically as well as physically, to run away from yourself.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: And in that 18 months I had to get to know Marilyn.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: Beyond running and the, you know the facade that I might've had to put on and you know I had to love me so that I can, you know, come out of this.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: You know the role that I have and the role that I take on in many of my circles and my roles it's about nurturing and empowering others, but I had to do that for myself first, and that's often the muscles that you have to build when you're being told to wait.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so, using, I guess, that experience of 18 months and, well, your entire career to date, when someone approaches you or people listening to this and they're thinking, when someone approaches you or people listening to this and they're thinking, great, what would be the one or two things that you would say to them to help them with that career transition?
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: Perhaps with that 18 month piece, before you know figuring out my, the, the logic or the physical pieces?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: You know creeping in here, what guidance would you give from your experience to help them transition better?
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know creeping in here.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: What guidance would you give from your experience to help them transition?
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: better.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, first and foremost, be still, and I think one thing, because we're athletes, right, so we always want to do something and we think we do that, and it's going to lead to this, and in that time frame, you tend to panic, and so I just encourage everyone to just be still, give themselves some grace and some space, um, and try and ground themselves.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: You know, and whether that's, you know, having someone that you trust to talk to, I'm always going to be open ears, because I know how important it is to have someone listen, you know, and just waffle.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you can't even, you know, you don't even and you might be a writer, you know, write things down.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: I would also encourage just to not plan too far ahead.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: You know, set some goals, but they don't need to be these big, mammoth goals.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Just what do you want to?
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: What could life look like in the next three months, the next six months?
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: You know, and if you know, if you do come, you know, I think sometimes when you start that then you start to see, oh, actually, here's a bigger picture in this.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: I'm interested in this and don't be afraid to, um, you know, reach out to people that have been through this journey, um, or are in seats.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: That you think is an industry that's quite interesting.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Don't be afraid to.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, I literally just got off a session with my interns, like telling them to ping, you know, the director in America, and you know a closed mouth doesn't get fed ultimately.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: And so if you do have an idea of something that you are passionate about, lead with what you're interested in as well, and it can be almost like a fun exploratory process of elimination and just have these informal chit-chats, you know, and just see, is that something I'm interested in?
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Because what happens then is they'll go oh, I should really introduce you to this person.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Or, you know, come down to the office and have lunch.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: Then you get free lunch, you know, and you just never know what can come out of anything, of everything.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: And also you just don't know how to fill your days.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: And suddenly you start, you know, having these meetings, but don't overwhelm yourself.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: That's the other thing I think.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: One thing I learned was I just set myself one thing a day that I'm going to achieve, and you know, equally, if I didn't, it's okay, and that's that be still grace and space.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: Check in with yourself daily and get to know yourself beyond your sport, because you are more than your sport.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: It's an incredible part of your identity, but the one guarantee is that you're not going to do it anymore, and so it can't be your only identity.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: Marilyn, that's, that's great, thank you.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing your story, thanks for the words, words of wisdom and for the laughs as well.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: I have to say along the way, I'm enjoying our conversation.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: For those who want to keep track of you or find you, what's a good way to find you on on socials?
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: much easier these days because I'm not as fast a runner as I used to be, still got some some speed.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: Instagram I am an Instagram babe, love it.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: Um, it's literally my name, marilyn Okoro, I think.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: The Olympic letters OLY on the end.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: Please connect with me.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: But also I love LinkedIn.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Now I'm a professional.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: Um, again, my name, marilyn Okoro, or OLY.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, those are my two main main sources of connection socially and I am very responsive on those.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, my DMs are open for any questions.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: Any signposting, however, I can support.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: And, ryan, I'm really grateful to you for sharing your platform.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's the.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: I think we've got much work to do together, so I'm excited for where this leads to, but it's really important to create these communities and these platforms for athletes to see you, know what there is that lies ahead and hear these stories.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: So, thank you, appreciate you.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: Marilyn, thank you very much, absolutely brilliant, wonderful fact.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.