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BONUS Episode! Joe DeLoss on Ego, Service, and Modern Masculinity · The Keri Croft Show

• 0:00
  Keri Croft: Welcome to the Carrie Crypto Show.
• 0:02
  Keri Croft: This is, you know, hey, there's a bonus with Joe on masculinity.
• 0:08
  Keri Croft: Bonus.
• 0:11
  Keri Croft: And then we back.
• 0:13
  Keri Croft: I liked him so much.
• 0:14
  Keri Croft: I lassed with him back in.
• 0:15
  Keri Croft: Well, no, we just started talking again about masculinity and then like the light bulb came off because or came on.
• 0:21
  Keri Croft: I just think like it's such an important conversation.
• 0:25
  Keri Croft: And I think it could help a lot.
• 0:27
  Keri Croft: First of all, it's not all about marriage, because maybe there's some single guys out there that could use it.
• 0:31
  Keri Croft: But I think it could help so many people if they just shifted their lens a little bit around what is like this whole idea of masculinity and cracking open and talk about it.
• 0:43
  Keri Croft: Give us the give us the the goods.
• 0:45
  Joe DeLoss: Let me think about how to say this more thoughtfully than I was about to say.
• 0:48
  Keri Croft: Well, say it how you said it before.
• 0:49
  Keri Croft: Don't put being a little bit more.
• 0:52
  Joe DeLoss: I think in many ways, men like we've been wired.
• 0:58
  Joe DeLoss: Like the the two kind of components of our wiring from the earliest days were like procreate and hunt.
• 1:06
  Joe DeLoss: Like provide, procreate and provide, kind of this idea.
• 1:10
  Joe DeLoss: And so um the procreation hasn't stopped, you know?
• 1:16
  Joe DeLoss: Um, this unregulated desire for like power, sex, money, etc.
• 1:21
  Joe DeLoss: I would suggest most of the pain that I've created in the world, most of the pain that is in the world is from uh unregulated men with unregulated power.
• 1:35
  Joe DeLoss: Um and uh there's not much more to say about that piece.
• 1:42
  Joe DeLoss: The the hunting part used to be like you were gonna go out on a hunt for days to create enough nourishment for your family to sustain itself while your counterparts that you've procreated with are going to nourish and care and prepare.
• 2:01
  Joe DeLoss: This was, and every culture did it different, but at least in our orientation towards masculinity, that hunt was a big part of it.
• 2:09
  Joe DeLoss: I think when I imagine what has the hunt become?
• 2:13
  Joe DeLoss: Like maybe it's that kind of false summit idea of like, I gotta earn enough money so my family will permanently be safe, or I want my partner to stay at home with our kids, so I'm gonna provide in that way.
• 2:26
  Joe DeLoss: But functionally, like the true self-preservation of it is I'm gonna go to Kroger and buy food for my family.
• 2:36
  Joe DeLoss: And so, so long as I have a resource that I can do that with, that's fine.
• 2:39
  Joe DeLoss: But the hunt itself is not out of sustenance anymore for those of us with the privilege of living in this part of the world and all these things with resources.
• 2:51
  Joe DeLoss: There are people in our community that have to self-preserve, and you see the wildness of that and the impact it has and the complexity of it.
• 2:59
  Joe DeLoss: But now the hunt is like I'm gonna go shoot an animal that I will consume, but I'm mostly shooting it because I want a trophy on my wall.
• 3:13
  Joe DeLoss: And so the hunt is this very superficial version of something that used to be really intrinsic to our survival.
• 3:21
  Joe DeLoss: And now it's just the trophy, which could be the most attractive partner, it could be the nicest car, the most money.
• 3:28
  Joe DeLoss: Like it, I think this metaphor could get really blown out.
• 3:33
  Joe DeLoss: And so I think there's something about like evolving the hunt for men.
• 3:38
  Joe DeLoss: What I've had to evolve for myself is this exploration of self so I can be better of better service to my family, better service to my community.
• 3:46
  Joe DeLoss: And I know we've talked about vultures, but this idea of like, I'm gonna keep cultivating my capacity and my competencies to serve better and better.
• 3:56
  Joe DeLoss: And I do that by learning more and more about myself and the harm I could do to others.
• 4:01
  Joe DeLoss: And so I think as it relates to the masculinity side of the work Baker Road might do or the spaces we might create, it's how do you build a safe container for men to explore that?
• 4:13
  Joe DeLoss: And the way we do that is like we run ourselves ragged like dogs on a really hard backpacking trip, and we get tired and vulnerable enough that then inevitably all you can do is talk about the hard stuff.
• 4:26
  Joe DeLoss: Um that ends up being like the hunt or the exploration that's the most impactful about being out in the woods with a group of 20 dudes that just hike 75 miles, you know.
• 4:39
  Joe DeLoss: And uh and to have that exploration, to have pain and discomfort associated, and get cared for and nurtured by other men that'll like fix your blisters and cook you food and make sure you're hydrated and all those things, that is like a certain kind of wild dissonance that's really compelling to somebody.
• 5:00
  Joe DeLoss: And we don't have that culture.
• 5:02
  Joe DeLoss: And and a lot of the people talking about masculinity online, I think are talking about it as a trophy on the wall of what they're entitled to.
• 5:11
  Joe DeLoss: And I I just I just think we need more people to not behave that way.
• 5:19
  Joe DeLoss: And uh, yeah, so I think I don't know.
• 5:23
  Keri Croft: Drop the mic, Joe.
• 5:25
  Keri Croft: Drop the damn mic.
• 5:27
  Keri Croft: We're gonna we're gonna chop that up.
• 5:29
  Keri Croft: We're gonna put a thumbnail on that bitch and be like masculinity, hack.
• 5:34
  Keri Croft: No.
• 5:35
  Joe DeLoss: Maybe, yeah.
• 5:37
  Joe DeLoss: It's I it's really hard.
• 5:39
  Joe DeLoss: And and the illusion that men can be that thing that these guys are talking about, this like hard thing, is such a costume for so many of us that really have a proclivity towards like more nurture and more care and more stability.
• 5:58
  Joe DeLoss: And any flex of those competencies are perceived as weakness.
• 6:03
  Joe DeLoss: And for somewhat whatever regression is happening culturally right now, that we're celebrating, guys that feel like entitled to attention, entitled to intimacy or whatever, that are trading chores at home to get attention from their partners, you know.
• 6:22
  Joe DeLoss: Like, um, I've been that guy, you know, and in my worst version of myself, I'm still that guy, you know, it's not gone anywhere.
• 6:30
  Joe DeLoss: It's just how do I cultivate awareness and a community of men around me that aren't going to tolerate that behavior from me?
• 6:36
  Joe DeLoss: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Joe DeLoss: And um we need more people to behave that way than um to start to set a standard and like more women in a hetero sense to like demand that of the men they're with.
• 6:53
  Joe DeLoss: And you recognize the dissonance now of women are demanding that.
• 6:57
  Joe DeLoss: Oh, yeah, and men are not providing it, and inevitably they get behind a keyboard and turn in a whiny bitch about it to articulate what they deserve.
• 7:08
  Joe DeLoss: And I I don't think we deserve anything, nor does any human, but even that word deserve, it's like I want to be of serve, I want to be of service, and inevitably everything else takes care of itself.
• 7:22
  Joe DeLoss: But yeah, I don't know, Carrie.
• 7:24
  Joe DeLoss: It's uh it's a weird nut to crack, and we have our certain version of it, and for the people that it's meaningful for, it's meaningful.
• 7:32
  Joe DeLoss: And some of the best recommendations we get for men that join our trips are from their partners who tell their friends to send their partners, and um, that means a lot to be in that community, and I need it.
• 7:50
  Joe DeLoss: It's not like I'm not jumping on any grenade here.
• 7:54
  Joe DeLoss: And I need it for myself, and I need it for my daughters and for my wife and for the people I encounter.
• 8:02
  Joe DeLoss: And um, so yeah, it means a tremendous amount.
• 8:05
  Keri Croft: I love that.
• 8:06
  Keri Croft: I I think most men could uh probably use a trip out into the woods with you guys.
• 8:11
  Keri Croft: Seriously.
• 8:13
  Keri Croft: I mean, I I'm gonna look at it just from a lens, a very practical, low-key lens, just from a woman.
• 8:19
  Keri Croft: You know, men are very sexually driven.
• 8:22
  Keri Croft: Men want what they want from their partners, right?
• 8:25
  Keri Croft: And I think a lot of men don't realize what how to get it from the woman once they're married and like what really gets us, you know, wanting to do that.
• 8:33
  Keri Croft: And it's not even close to what you think it is.
• 8:35
  Keri Croft: It's not your, it's not your six-pack, it's not your, you know, it's small, intentional, thoughtful, vulnerable things, helpful things, all these things that I feel like could be something that could crack open in a place like Baker Road.
• 8:52
  Joe DeLoss: Yeah.
• 8:52
  Joe DeLoss: And to it, it's, you know, there, there are times for strength.
• 8:56
  Joe DeLoss: There's times to be a blunt instrument and times to be protective.
• 9:01
  Joe DeLoss: And there we all watch the same movies and the same shows.
• 9:05
  Joe DeLoss: We know why we believe that is the thing, because that's the like hero that we've been creating media about.
• 9:14
  Joe DeLoss: Because the story we're talking about, like kind of the vulture path, is a lot less sexy in like how we've been trained to think and receive things.
• 9:25
  Joe DeLoss: And so I think it's actually like it's all of those things.
• 9:30
  Joe DeLoss: It is, can you be a protector?
• 9:31
  Joe DeLoss: Can you build the physical capacity and strength?
• 9:33
  Joe DeLoss: Can you hunt?
• 9:34
  Joe DeLoss: Can you explore?
• 9:36
  Joe DeLoss: Can you nurture?
• 9:37
  Joe DeLoss: Can you prepare food for your kids?
• 9:40
  Joe DeLoss: Can you cultivate a relationship so that if a kid is in need, they feel safe coming to you?
• 9:46
  Joe DeLoss: And what we have cultivated is the antithesis of that.
• 9:49
  Joe DeLoss: We have cultivated um a reputation for men as predators because men have been predators.
• 9:56
  Joe DeLoss: And uh we have a lot of room to grow.
• 10:00
  Joe DeLoss: And I I recognize about myself I carry so much shame that I gotta process to not take away from the things that I where I do feel like I show up really well.
• 10:10
  Joe DeLoss: But um, that work has to happen somewhere, someplace.
• 10:15
  Joe DeLoss: I in our own little way, we're doing it at Baker Road and at super limited numbers, but I don't think the masculinity conversation that's happening is a healthy one because I think it's only perpetuating the distance.
• 10:27
  Joe DeLoss: It's getting further away from the desire.
• 10:30
  Joe DeLoss: And in even just in this very heteronormative way, um we need to keep cultivating relationships and dynamics between masculine and feminine energies that yields additional humans to continue this experiment a little longer.
• 10:51
  Joe DeLoss: Yeah.
• 10:51
  Joe DeLoss: And I I think it is like, yeah, borderline, like an evolutionary imperative that men figure out how to show up in a modern way that's not a this brute, right, low frequency version of masculinity.
• 11:08
  Keri Croft: I think we're asking you to be multidimensional and fluid, right?
• 11:13
  Keri Croft: So I think that's kind of what you're saying, too.
• 11:15
  Keri Croft: It's like, yeah, there is a time to be like blunt instrument.
• 11:18
  Keri Croft: There's, but there's also times for all these other things too.
• 11:21
  Keri Croft: But I think it is starting to stand out more.
• 11:22
  Keri Croft: Like at least in the circles I run in, the women that I surround myself with, you know, certain things just aren't tolerated or it's just not it.
• 11:33
  Joe DeLoss: Yeah.
• 11:33
  Joe DeLoss: And and I think that fluidity goes both directions because part of it is also allowing our partners with grace or the counter, the yin to the yang, you know, of others to step up in ways that maybe have been conventionally masculine or culturally the norm for the past, of to create that space.
• 11:55
  Joe DeLoss: But that also means we got to step in in that gap, particularly for those of us that have kids or are in service in different ways.
• 12:04
  Joe DeLoss: And so I I think that fluidity in my own experience in life was something that I hid for so long.
• 12:13
  Joe DeLoss: And I just tried to emulate like, I'm not just gonna be like the the artist, show choir, musical theater kid that I want to be, but I'm also gonna try to play team sports and I'm gonna try to do these things, which just were never fits for me.
• 12:30
  Keri Croft: Yeah.
• 12:31
  Joe DeLoss: And um, I was only embarrassed.
• 12:34
  Joe DeLoss: I was embarrassed about who I felt like I was.
• 12:38
  Joe DeLoss: And so alternatively, that embarrassment just leads to like cosplaying something I'm not and doing it poorly and creating harm to others.
• 12:47
  Keri Croft: Yeah.
• 12:47
  Joe DeLoss: And so, yeah, what a weird.
• 12:49
  Joe DeLoss: The more we can just encourage people to just be who you fucking are.
• 12:54
  Joe DeLoss: And let's be curious about who you're becoming and not get in the way.
• 12:59
  Joe DeLoss: I mean, kind of the way I think about my daughters growing is like, man, I get to watch that movie of who they become and keep them safe so that they have the freedom to explore it.
• 13:09
  Joe DeLoss: And I'm gonna get out of the way.
• 13:11
  Joe DeLoss: Shut the fuck up.
• 13:12
  Joe DeLoss: That's like the number one spiritual lesson.
• 13:14
  Joe DeLoss: Just stop trying to give other people the answer and encourage them to find their own.
• 13:19
  Joe DeLoss: And that is, I think that's what my ambition for the Baker Road community would be, which is that we are just a space that people come to find their own answers.
• 13:29
  Joe DeLoss: And uh I'm not gonna get in the way of or give you some prescriptive framework.
• 13:37
  Joe DeLoss: We're guides, not gurus.
• 13:39
  Joe DeLoss: Like you gotta do that for yourself.
• 13:42
  Joe DeLoss: And if I make sure you feel like you did it for yourself because you know you did, it's gonna last so much longer.
• 13:51
  Joe DeLoss: And so don't give credit to anywhere else but where it's due.
• 13:56
  Joe DeLoss: And that's with you, because you showed up and you did the work and I fixed your blister.
• 14:00
  Joe DeLoss: Who fucking cares?
• 14:02
  Joe DeLoss: Like go on your own way and now go into the world in a way that's more productive and offers more goodness and less badness, like more vultures, less roadkill, you know.
• 14:13
  Joe DeLoss: Well, you just that was a lot of fucking good material there, dude.
• 14:16
  Joe DeLoss: It's good we turn the mic back on, apparently.