Latest / Veteran Wellness Podcast / 34 Years in Special Forces: War, TBI & Learning How to Come Home | Eric Schwalm

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34 Years in Special Forces: War, TBI & Learning How to Come Home | Eric Schwalm · Veteran Wellness Podcast

• Eric Schwalm: I really feel bad because I want to be that kid, that good kid that my mom and dad raised. But I'm not that good kid that my mom and dad raised, at least not under the understanding that I understood it to be. I've killed people. I've done things, I've horrible things to other people just because it had to happen at the time. I've changed. I've got to sit there and go, okay, what is my new comfort level? Can I help other people understand? my comfort level and also myself. Can I sit there and look at myself and go, Eric, this is you. You're good. This happened to you. You're going to have sleepless nights. It doesn't have to upset your entire day. ERIK LAWRENCE: Hey Chief, how was your workout? Eric Schwalm: had a good workout. de working shoulders today. I I have a a running routine of a workout. keeps me in a very positive mindset. Let's me focus on my body and let me take my mind off of anything else that's going on in my life and and I can just focus on me, my health, and the things that I need to be doing as a as a guy who's approaching quickly approaching sixty years old. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah, and that's where you know, that's like an active meditation practice. You know, there's so many different ways to meditate and and actively doing something does that. I was out actively meditating with the chainsaw this morning. You can't do anything else but deal with the chainsaw, so Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yeah you can't do anything else to deal with the chainsaw. Right. Right. Little little me time out there, a little time inside your head. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. So I was checking our notes earlier and we both then listed in eighty seven. I got in nineteenth group in eighty seven. where did you start? Eric Schwalm: Roger that. Mm-hmm. so I started as a Cav Scout originally. That was back in the day when in Special Forces you had to get biased to a a certain rank level before you could cross over and and become S F. I mean I think it think it was E four or Corporal, whatever it was at that point in time. so I did my first four years were as a nineteen Delta Cav Scout. Yeah, go ahead and make all the infantry jokes about that that you want. ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Eric Schwalm: they they love us, but I got assigned to an infantry battalion. I was down there at Fort Benning. we wound up being the third brigade of the twenty fourth ID when it came to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. ERIK LAWRENCE: okay. Eric Schwalm: so that was my very first experience with combat was D S D S. as if you know about where the twenty fourth ID we were on the far left on the arc that swung around. we had the hundred and first to our left and then we had regular army units to the right, and so we got to go through like three major cities, a whole bunch of combat out there and and I got to it was a r a real experience for somebody who was in their twenties to go from, you know, being in high school to to suddenly seeing death on a grand scale. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, and that you were on that west side there. my my hometown in West Virginia, they had a field artillery unit that was on there with you, National Guard. they came around the two of first and it was really weird that I was in group and we didn't go and the field artillery Eric Schwalm: Right now. ERIK LAWRENCE: unit down the road went. So I was like, okay. But you know, I was in schools Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: at Bragg anyhow, not like we would have went anywhere. And Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yeah, and if you remember Panama and my actual unit, so the they took the MPs from our brigade and sent them down to Panama and we got to sit there and watch them go, so ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, there was a lot of that going on. Yeah, they Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Then you'd try to strap hang on a ride down there and, you know, get a patch, but a lot of people did I was Eric Schwalm: Right now. ERIK LAWRENCE: I was sitting in a Wendy's between schools watching that happen on CNN. I'm like, Well, missed another one, you know, it's like little did we know there would Eric Schwalm: Yep, yep. Hey, well, ERIK LAWRENCE: be plenty later. Eric Schwalm: Yeah, that's something that I've had to pass off to a lot of to young guys in SF. It's like don't be in a hurry. it'll ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: find you. Yeah, it's like if you go looking for it, you may wind up getting something you don't want, but if you if you just let things take its course, you do all the right things, eventually you're gonna find your yourself in a situation that's gonna fall right in your lap. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, and that's where an old Aussie SAS buddy of mine once told me, Never run to your funeral. Eric Schwalm: No, no. I mean i i it'll be there. Yep. You'll you'll be there. You'll be the one that's Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: You know, I'm like, Wow, that's very poignant. Yeah. Yeah, you'll you'll be there. You'll be the one that's there. but with that, you know, y you went all the way up through into Syria, didn't you? I mean, e every conflict Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: pretty much since ninety one. Eric Schwalm: Yeah, all the way up to twenty one. so if it had from eighty seven to twenty one, if you look at all the major combats that happened over that period of time, I was involved so I'm I'm like a walking history book of experiences, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, down in the Horn of Africa, all kinds of experiences through all ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, some of those are probably good and some of those are probably not. I'm I'm I've got a lot of buddies that's, you know, done those same trips and Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: I don't know. It just seems a little different now. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Everything everything has a a place. it can be good and bad. it all depends like it it just is. I it's what you make of it really. you can have ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Eric Schwalm: a bad experience and get something good out of it. You can have a good experience and take something bad out of it. So ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. And and we had, you know, some great people, you know, I mean, you you fifth group there, I I know Big Mo, you know, Mo Holland there. he Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: he was my battalion commander in first group a long time ago and then he went back over to you guys. Yeah. And Eric Schwalm: Really? ERIK LAWRENCE: and I saw him in Afghanistan later and I was teasing him about something he he wasn't too entertained about. you know his humor. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Yes. Yeah, yeah. I have a very, very personal experience with him coming out of two thousand one over there in in in K K two because we ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: were one of the first teams that had gone into Afghanistan. we were also one of the first teams that was extracted out of Afghanistan as well because of a situation that happened over there and it was a very life altering experience militarily for me, especially as I moved up through the leadership to go through what happened. to put it in into to explain what all happened is that we got sent into Poly Comri and we were working with a G chief which was working with another significant G chief up there. you may have seen the movie about it. that was the ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: other SF team and and the whole race to get to that one city. And so our G chief was a sub of the G Chief that was the the primary p ERIK LAWRENCE: Okay. Eric Schwalm: part of that. So All that racing to get to cities and and and that that what you saw, the politics that you saw going on in that movie played out in real time where we were at. And so what happened is on the very same day that they took Kabul and you see Mulholland and everybody's on the video at their they're ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: at the airport, I think it was, and they're raising the the flag and everything. ERIK LAWRENCE: The embassy. Eric Schwalm: Right, right. So that was like big TV, it's like this is the fall of Afghanistan. That Very same day we were trying to take polycomri direct. So we were in a combat with polycomr in com polycomri. we had been in contact since that morning. we're in contact most of the afternoon. As as far as we knew by our G chief, we were in a fight with the Taliban. come to find out what we were actually were, and we were in a fight with another Northern Alliance faction racing ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: who had gone for polycomri. And We had no idea. You know, we were going off of the information that was given to us by our Chi Chief, because that was the environment at the time. It's ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: not like we could reach out and see who was where or there was no other else working with that other faction. And so the Mulholland's there and and he one of the senior Afghan leaders walks up to him and he goes, by the way, America and Afghanistan are at war. And this is this is words coming right from Mulholland's mouth, explaining to us what all happened. And and He was like, What do mean? He goes, Well, right now we got two Afghan factions, two of your the friendly Afghan factions going at it and your guys are backing one of the Afghan factions. And ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: he's like, Okay, we got a problem. So we started radio contact back and forth, and he's like, Look, you guys gotta go. You guys gotta get out of there and it's like we have no vehicles, we have no means to extract ourselves, so we're gonna need to one, extract ourselves from the fight, two extract ourselves from that that town because we're we're now PNG. You know, ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Eric Schwalm: as soon as we sit there and turn on a tell our G's that we're leaving, we're we're of no help to anybody. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Not to mention there's another faction over there that really doesn't want us there. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And so they worked out a negotiation between everybody where they could the RGs would take us to a point where the helicopters could pick us up. The other Gs would lay off long enough for for us to get out of there and then they can go right back to fighting however they want to fight. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Alright, so fine. So we got extracted. there that was a that was a day I I've never been shot at by anti are anti aircraft before and had, you know, shrapnel flying all around me, but that was one of those days. that was a lesson all by itself. You can hide behind a tire. so then we get back into Karshi Khanabod and and all of us are really, really dejected. you know, we ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I'm sure. Eric Schwalm: We have been doing good things, we wanted to do continue to do good things in Afghanistan, but we ran into what would become a major thing throughout the rest of my special forces history is where you're working with a specific faction and what they're doing they're they're not thinking current situation of the who they're fighting, they're thinking long term, who's gonna be ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. Eric Schwalm: in charge of this sector after everybody pulls out. They're thinking, all right, so the Taliban fall, who's gonna be in charge? if the you know, we push the Sunni out of this area, what's the the Shia going to do in this area? And this was something like such an eye opening experience 'cause ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes. Eric Schwalm: you're you're always thinking, I'm gonna live and die with my G's. And so we get back up in the K two, we're very dejected, we went through a couple of bad you know, a couple of debriefs explaining what all happened, trying to set the stage and experience to everybody. And we Mahollan pulled us into a tent and he gave us, you know, his outlook on it, explained everything to us and And as everybody's leaving and I'm sitting there and Maholland's sitting there, I I said, you know, so how you know, how am I supposed to process this? What am I going to do with this? And he goes, You need to understand something. He goes, As a special forces soldier, as a member of the United States Army, as as a a representative of our government, I may put you together with somebody and you may operate with that somebody for quite a period of time. never Number one, never fall in love with them. Because at any point ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: I may ask you to turn around and shoot all of Because they have just become an enemy of the United States. He goes, and that's the play of the problem. He said, You you are a representative of the United States and you need to think always, whenever you're working with the Gs, whenever you're working with any factions overseas, you represent the United States first and foremost. The it's a ma like like we think now, America first, and so y There is no whenever I'm working with with anybody Iraq, you know, up there in Afghanistan, working with this the Kurds or anybody like that, I gotta represent rem remember who I represent, what party it's it's like a being a lawyer. I represent the ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: American government. What we want, what we want to accomplish. Anything that they're trying to do that may align with us at that point in time, perfectly fine. You know, but at at And that's a it was such a huge turnaround for mentality of going f I felt like I was going from a child to a man in that knowledge ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: that he passed on at that moment 'cause it was a real life experience, very shocking. belief system was flipped on its end of of you know, you're cause all you're taught about through the green you know, as you're going through being a green beret is, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: you know, support the Gs, support the G support. You never think ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: they never give you that expectation management that the Gs may be up to their own game and it's counterproductive to what the United States wants to do. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. No, I ran into that too, and I'm I'm looking back through my mind, I'm like, no one taught us this part. No one taught us that we might have to, you know, wake up and and smoke these fools. I I learned that in Africa the hard way the the same way, where, you know, they're cleaning Eric Schwalm: Ooh, yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: up their battles and cleaning up their future, you know, using us to do that. And you're like, hey, wait a minute here, you know, and Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: that was a a a deficiency in the instruction for sure. And experience. Eric Schwalm: Yes. Yeah. Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, but you were you were enlisted back then. What MOS were you back then? Eric Schwalm: nineteen Delta at that point. ERIK LAWRENCE: Okay. Eric Schwalm: then then when I came in I went through eighteen Delta course. so here's here's a funny thought for you too. So nowadays, when you go through the special forces course you come out as an E five and as an eighteen X ray you come out as an E five and then get promoted to E six a couple months later after getting to the Teams. So before the the same day I made E six when I graduated the eighteen Delta course, because that's the way it worked back then. was also this same month I made E six as a nineteen Delta. My points came around. So I'm like, gee, you know, here thanks, right? So ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: E six, E six, either way, so I was never given E six. Whether or not I had b become a Greenberry, I was an E six at that point, no matter what. So when ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. that's funny. Eric Schwalm: I that yeah, yeah. So did my time as a as an eighteen Delta. I did that up till I think as a eighteen Delta to about two thousand four. Then Crossover became the 18 Fox for the team, but still carried the 18 Delta title because they weren't willing to give that up to keep me as an 18 Delta. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm, of course. Eric Schwalm: Because I can right, you know, I was in the CIF at that time, and if they're gonna you're gonna send a team, you've got to have an 18 Delta. You don't necessarily have to have an 18 Fox. So I ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Yep. Yep. Eric Schwalm: dual had it. so carried the Fox roll, got my E got promoted to E seven around O five, did my team sergeant, my junior team sergeant team on the troop and A one five. Did the troops sergeant major down in A one five, came off that, they were about to send me up to the the battalion three, put in my packet to become a warrant from there and ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: and then crossed over to warrant O seven, which is nineteen years in service at that point. So I was like this ERIK LAWRENCE: No kidding, yeah. Eric Schwalm: really old enlisted experienced guy going through the warrant officer course with guys who are like E seven under ten years time in i in service. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, but back in the day that's how the warrant program was supposed to be. It wasn't supposed to be an E six that couldn't get promoted. It was it was your team sergeant that you don't want to lose. I mean I remember in in nineteenth group we had lieutenants, you know, which made a very good captain because he Eric Schwalm: Yes. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: got belittled by carrying the the generator, you know, and doing other things that were not Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: important, but he learned how to be a good team leader. So Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: I I remember that you're you're the the warrant that they were supposed to have. The one with experience, the one you want to keep around. And, you know, he takes naps from here and there, carries a clipboard. No one's in charge. You know, typical warrant stuff. And Yeah, but most of all Eric Schwalm: Right. Yep. I couldn't do that to save my life. I couldn't. ERIK LAWRENCE: that's with fifth group, right? Eric Schwalm: Yeah, all of it. one hundred percent with with with with fifth group. only I had one two year stint over at the Warren Off the Warn Officer course in the basic course along with one representative from each group which was as instructors there, which was probably the the most educational, institutional, knowledge growth that I've ever had was working there. And like you talked ERIK LAWRENCE: I'll bet. Eric Schwalm: about with the with the warrants, like we all came in there, like you're talking each group sent the best of the best to be the at their at the Warrant Officer Course. And so we mind mind melded and we turned the Warrant Officer course basically on its ear. we s where it used to be like you know pass fail tests, multiple choice questions. We went to essays, we went to deep ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: thinking, we went to Bloom's Taxonomy of Knowledge. we took it to a whole nother level. So the people that we were sending back to group, like you we had all looked at and blessed off on and said, This is what we want on a team as a warrant officer to come in and then grow with us as a team. We we knew exact I like we all talked about what you talked about. It's like we d we're getting away from that warranter, like you said, who was an E six and d had z limited future as an E eight and then crossed over. We're we're taking guys that were definitely gonna be top of the food chain. in the enlisted realm and said, We're sending you back to the team so you get another six years on that team and you're gonna do great and wonderful things. So it w it was really, really a an amazing time to be there. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I was gonna say that's transforming, you know, how it was. So that that's awesome that you were able to participate in that because, you know, some Eric Schwalm: yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: people they kinda you know, they're retiring on active duty. And when given the chance, you know, to make the changes, they to pick the easy road. I'm not that way. I'm always in trouble for doing the opposite. That that's how Big John knew my name all the time. I was always Eric Schwalm: Yep. No. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. It was like, yeah, Eric's doing it, so you know, let me go chew his ass for a little while. Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: And I'm like, whatever. Three bags full. Remembers my name though. Eric Schwalm: Here you go. ERIK LAWRENCE: you got an attack cat there. Eric Schwalm: Yep, that's this is my little buddy right here. he was th this guy wasn't an emotional thing for me because with animals I was always very, very detached. and this is gonna come down to an experience that we may talk about. is part of growing up. I tell you what, let's get right into this as we're doing it right now. so I d I don't judge my parents either plus or minus. They th th you're you're as a parent, myself, as a as a as a parent, you you do you go with what you know. You're nobody's given you a book. There's no how ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Correct. Eric Schwalm: to manual. You're you're given the experiences that you get in life to go into it. And so y my parents had you know some very vast experiences of their own as they grew up to to put it in into specifics. My mom at a very young age witnessed her father leave the home and he never came back. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And if you think that's not and so y my mom and dad are both from the greatest generation. They were born in the nineteen twenties. My dad was in World War Two. so d in in that perspective that my mom received that, i she had that's a v huge trauma to her, especially ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: as a young child. And it's gonna leave an impact. And if and there wasn't like we've already talked about back then there were no systems available to Assist in the process of that. There were nobody knew what to do. You just handled it. That's the way things used to be. Go ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: deal with it. Put your big girl panties on, go deal with it. And you know, she's gonna come out of that and then raise nine kids without a trauma that was ever really treated with her. And that's gonna create a dynamic with her as far as it goes with the kids, where she puts, you know, mental things that are going on inside her head into her relationships with her children. and one of the the things that happened with the children. the again, no I give my mom total grace because again, there I can't give her, you know, any s any sort of you know, like she's making an apology me apology to me and I give her any any you know something back for the apology. I have to give her grace because she never knew it was never a problem that she identified or dealt with. And so I can't there's no forgiveness to give. I can just give grace. Also she's passed on as well. But what she did in with because of that is she always created this, you have a debt to me, number one, and number two, I'm always evaluating you against each other and putting you into a criteria of who's the best kid. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: And as the last of nine kids, I got to hear all of that. You know, ERIK LAWRENCE: wow. Eric Schwalm: it's like, okay, well this kid's in good favor, this kid's not in good favor. Now again, you know, if you come up if you grew up in the sixties and seventies, that's no big deal. It's it happens. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes, sadly. Eric Schwalm: But you don't think about the i ha the impact of it's gonna have on you later in life. and then another thing is that is the debt that I owed her, like this was it's common this is something we call Jewish guilt. is where you have the this debt you owe me, like I carried you for nine months. That used to be a really big thing with parents back then. and so that's not a debt I can ever pay. That's a that's a a ERIK LAWRENCE: Obviously. Eric Schwalm: but right, and that's nothing that can ever change and if if you you if you never process that, if you never sit there and look at it and take it off to the side and look at it from like a Rubik's Cube and from all different angles, you don't think of the impacts all these things happen have to you. And so in my growth period as a child, one of the things I did in order to try to remain one in good favor, two to try to keep things at peace was I would I would try to manipulate the environment around me to be ha make my mom happy. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: So my most of my growth as a child, whether it was my grades, whether it was how I dealt with the our our pet dog, how I dealt with other people, was I don't want fight number one, I don't want fighting in the house. Number two, I don't want anything going on that makes my mom unhappy. And it's a small thing. It's not anything that was like, you know, totally debilitating for me. It's just something that happened through my growth period, carried on later in life, and and it's something I've soon realized and what that made me was a person who a people pleaser, if you will. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Yes. Eric Schwalm: And to a group of people that would never could never be pleased. If you let they tell people ple pleasers this all the time, you know, count on your hand how many people you've actually made happy. And so ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Eric Schwalm: there we go. So I had I've had plenty of pets throughout my life and one of the things I would do, if like if the pet upset people, I would take a negative opinion of that animal. and and I would not give it love. I never I wouldn't give it attention because it was upsetting to people. And so that my cat back there, that's a different cat, that's Oreo back there, but the one that was just here, biscuit, was the very first time, especially going through all my therapies and everything, where my wife was getting upset at the cat for waking her up and and stuff like that. And I had to tell her face to face, I said, Honey, I said, I love you. This is no judgment upon you. I said, but I as a person cannot give I cannot take anything against the cat on behalf of you. I said, I you may be upset at the cat. That's between you and the cat. I said, but I want you to understand from me, I am never going to get upset at the cat because you're upset at the cat. This cat and I ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I was very, very protective of the cat and this was a huge mental leap for me that I was willing to to jump in and protect somebody other than the emotions of the person that I love. So I ho ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I hope that that makes makes some sense too because it it pa play some ERIK LAWRENCE: No, it does, but I mean, you know, most most of the guys in group are pretty broke, you know, from from childhood traumas. I mean it's Eric Schwalm: Yes. absolutely. Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: it's it's the broken toy club. And you know, everybody goes there to try to prove themselves to you know, to one up everybody and and Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: some of you know, looking for a good ambush. You know. They just Eric Schwalm: Yep. had just spoke with a psychologist in fifth group back in eight and he was doing a study of special forces and soft soldiers and like the number of of soft soft soldiers at that point in time with daddy issues was through the roof. Because we were we were ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah, it's it's majority. Eric Schwalm: you know right, you're looking for that adult male acknowledgement that you're doing good and all that you're being successful and you're going to get it in group. thankful yeah, thankfully ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Well, one or the other, you know. Eric Schwalm: right. Mine wasn't my dad. Mine was my mom. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: but that was the the the same type of thing. You're looking for a parent and you're looking for success and accomplishment to be shown to you. ERIK LAWRENCE: And also there's a lot of studies in you know the PTSD realm that the worse your childhood, the worse your PTSD. Scandinavia did a bunch of that, which to me it's a no-brainer, of course, because you you can only saturate the body with so much trauma or stress or or just shitty times. And then, you know, you're oversaturated. and I've got some buddies, you know, they have no problems. And when you look at them, they had like the perfect idyllic you know, upbringing, you know, and I'm like, that kinda makes sense. And then so it it plays out. And we've seen it. I mean you've seen it, I'm sure. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. let's clarify something real quick, just you know, for the re re regular listeners, the difference between PTS and PTSD, and I'm gonna I went through a specific course to be a PSD advisor, is PT everybody's gonna get some sort of post traumatic stress. Okay. There's a huge difference between post traumatic stress and post traumatic stress disorder. Like if you're on an ambulance and you witness somebody die, like in a very grotesque fashion, And you sit there, that is a post-traumatic there. You are going to walk away from that. You're you're it is absolutely an abnormal situation, an abnormal experience, and it's going to change you. now, whether it's a disorder, it's going to affect your life and make your life have problems where you have ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: relationship problems, sleep problems, work employment problems, then it becomes a disorder. You're going to have like w with when you have an abnormal situation happen to a normal person, it's going to create stress. That's everybody gets it. It's whether or not it becomes a disorder is is the bigger issue. and that's when you need to go be treated for PTSD, the disorder ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: part of it. You're you're not getting away from the PTS. You're gonna carry that with you for the rest of your life. That's your luggage. How you deal with it, whether it becomes a disorder or not, that that plays a a huge factor. and as we were talking about with the the children, the your ability to inoculate yourself through your growth as a child to become to be able to go up the slope of a problem, come back down off of it and recover and get back to normalcy. that's the the the up and down. Everybody's going to have an it like if you even get embarrassed at work, you're gonna go up here. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, of course. Eric Schwalm: And then there's that process of coming back down to normal. and you you know it's that constant jump up jump down it's your ability whether or not you can come back down to normal off of that. And with with children who experien who have a normal, safe upbringing, and I say but when I say safe, I'm not saying stress free. I'm saying safe as in you can experience a stress. Your parents watch you deal with it. They provide a safety net for you to deal with it. You're not protected from stress. You experience stress. But you have an environment to come back to. And you can you can look at it and in a safe environment and have people go back and forth with with ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: language with you, with experiences, with knowledge, let you study it from all different perspectives, and then you walk out of it. So we we have this problem now where we try to raise children in a stress-free environment and they never ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: get the upslope-downslope in that safe environment. Like with Brazilian jujitsu, as a Brazilian jujitsu instructor, one of the things I I do is I bring you into a stress environment. you deal with it, but it's a safe environment. It's not a real fight. You're ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Controlled. Eric Schwalm: you're right, it's a very controlled, safe environment. We're going to discuss it afterward. You're going to recover. You're you're going to at some point I'm turning it off. Just like SEER school. I'm going to turn it off. You're going to I'm going to take you up here, but it's safe. You're in a fishbowl, safe. And when we take when with that safe environment with kids that they they you have a good environment, they still get the stressors. It's not stress-free. They they experience it up and down, and then they can take it out into life, and they can go that up and down, up and down, up and down. And they understand the difference between a threat environment and a safe environment and know that there's a safe environment out there. When you go through a stressful childhood with no recovery mechanisms, your actual home life is not safe. You ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: never get to come back and look at that Rubik's cube of whatever that stressor was, and you have no way of looking at that and recovering from it. And that was one of the things I brought to the Warren Oscar course. And I told the students like very, very first off, I said, if I could, I would put every last one of you through the worst failure situation I can put you through as a leader. And let you ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: know that this is a learning environment. You're going to experience it. I'm gonna you're walking back down a bit. We're gonna discuss every feeling that you're feeling. The the face flash. Like if you're doing a briefing and it goes wrong and you get that heat that goes over your ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: body. It's it's recognizing where you are in the recovery process of like, okay, here's the pain, here's the heat, here's where it starts to get a little bit better, okay, this is when things start to normal out. I'm probably about, you know, a couple days away from everything being okay, and pht it's there. And I want them to study that and and when we look at the treatment of people with PTSD or people who experience PTS on the regular, like people who work on ambulances, first ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, MS, yeah. Eric Schwalm: responders, military people in combat, is inoculating them and I'm making them understand that wave right there of here it is, where are recognize where you're at and be able to either recognize number one, recognize where you're at and you're headed towards recovery, shorten that time span because span because you've experienced it and you're like, okay, like some I just lost one of the guys on my team. I've only I gotta get down here quick. I ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: can I've only got so much time to process all this right now. I need to get here and get back in the fire fight right now. And since we're raising children in a stress free environment and they're not riding that, we're not studying it, we're not giving anybody expectation management to actually understand that feeling and and deal with it, we run into all the problems that we're running into now. Like it was it was just a default mechanism back when we were growing up that you dealt with stress. Nobody ever gave you raised you in a stress free environment when we were awoke. No. ERIK LAWRENCE: No, gosh no. You you bottled it. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Right. And so With that it's where now we we went from, okay, children were raised in a stress free environment and we didn't know we were der raising them in a or in a stress environment. We didn't know we ERIK LAWRENCE: Stress. Eric Schwalm: were raising them in a stress environment. We just did it and it and somehow it it made things kind of a little better on the backside to now we're raising them in a stress free environment, free from, you know, hey, everybody gets a prize, your ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: grades even though you got a sixty, it's now an A. All those experiences are denied to to children. But they're in the in the safest environment possible, which is their ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: home. And then they go out and become an adult later on and nothing. You know, it's like now they're they're they're experiencing stress and stress recovery for the first time. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, without instruction, without, you know, it being in a learning environment. And my kids always Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: I owned Blackheart International back in the day. And we used to call it Black Blackheart Home Schooling. So my kids would go from homeschooling to shooting bows and arrows to shooting a dishka, back to homeschooling, and then we're running Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. god, yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: courses at the same time. So they're dealing Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: with, you know, tier one operators on a daily basis. So they Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: have a thousand uncles that We'll put them under immense amounts of stress just to tune them up and to give them an inoculation. And it's Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: hilarious to see them dealing with their peers. Cause their peers can't handle it. There's no way. You know, can't handle it. Now one thing I Eric Schwalm: Yes. No. No. And it's not their peers' fault. ERIK LAWRENCE: no, no, not at all. No, but it's it's just Eric Schwalm: Go ERIK LAWRENCE: I tell them it's a planning consideration for them. So I'm like, you you can perform. you know, you understand Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: what what stress is and what bullshit is. But one thing, Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: you know, you I like how you delineated PTS and PTSD, which but now I wanna TBIs because that's you know, we were both in SIF. So we're eating charges, we're Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: seeing how close we can get to charges. I don't know how many we never kept logs. You know, I went to the marine course And they kept a log. I'm like, that's silly. No, that was brilliant. You know, you know, keeping a a breech log. And my my Eric Schwalm: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: VA evaluators would love to have that these days, because they're like, Yeah, you're you're okay. I'm like, dude, I've pissed Eric Schwalm: my god, yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: blood, I've I've blown blood out of my nose. I mean, come on. Yeah. Yeah, Eric Schwalm: Lean to the left as you're going into a room because the charge was so hot. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah, yeah. And that's where you know, a lot of the TBI symptoms I think are confused with PTS and PTSD symptoms. i ev as a whole. Now they are obviously can combined and it makes it all much worse. But, you know, I had to go to a lot of neurological doctors to fix the T BI parts and then that fixed the other parts. 'Cause I I don't you know, a lot of us are prepared for the trauma that we saw and did. That I don't think hurt us as bad as the breaches and the A T fours and the hard landings at night, you know. But these days it's being delineated I think a lot better. Eric Schwalm: Yes. Right. So I'm wanna shed some light on how I I I look at that and it it comes more from my MMA experience than anything. if you watch a a UFC fight, after the fight is done, the doctor goes in and he looks at both the winner and the loser. and the reason is the person Who and I have to explain this over and over and over. The person who is head injured is the least qualified person to decide if they're okay or not. ERIK LAWRENCE: Course. Eric Schwalm: You see you see it all the time in exp in UFC and MMA fights where a guy gets knocked down, he wakes up, and he gets back up and he wants to fight again. And we were we were talking about this earlier ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: about how guys on the team will keep covering up the fact that they're they're injured and and try and stay in the game. Again, if you go if you keep in mind that the head injured person is the least qualified person to decide if they're okay, you will we will all be much better off. And then that includes both the fighter and the people who look at them from the outside. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Like if you're just a team sergeant and you're looking at your guy and you have no medical experience, no understanding of how TBIs work, what a concussion pattern, the recovery pattern from a concussion looks like. You're you're not exactly much better than the person who just got knocked knocked the hell out. So ERIK LAWRENCE: No. No. Eric Schwalm: when we talk about a TBI, as soon as you receive a TBI, you are the least qualified person to sit there and say, I'm okay, because you're not right. You ERIK LAWRENCE: You're not. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: just got knocked out. You are you there's a blank period in your time frame where you miss something and you are unaware of what's happening. You're gonna sit there and say, I'm okay. It's like, no, you missed this. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: and they have to explain this to fighters all the time. They're like, I'm ready to fight. I'm still good. Let me go. Let me go. If you look at it from that mentality, if you look at your special forces soldiers from that mentality of like, man, I just saw you get knocked out. Like you ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: were laying there unconscious in in the in a full decorticate or diserubit position where your body is rigid, and ERIK LAWRENCE: Locked out. Eric Schwalm: then you're back up and you're gonna stand there and look at me and tell me you're okay. You're not okay. And the same thing goes when they talk to the the guy who won. You see the doctors. They go in, they talk to the guy who won too, because again, he's been hit in the head a couple times. So like TBI, TBI, TBI, TB. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And they're gonna check on them before they even send them back out. And even when they leave the ring and they get back in the back room, they're still going to a hospital. So we treat our UFC and MMA fighters better than we do our warriors. like, you know, you go through a a heart hot charge, you go through a firefight, you go through a a a a couple of, you know, rocket launches and stuff like that. Receiving fire. Receiving fire, right. ERIK LAWRENCE: r receiving fire. I mean, holy hell. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And you're gonna say and nobody like they they don't do the two week protocol on you of okay, well let's keep watching you for the next two weeks to see what happens. And and and we we just don't appreciate that. Like I said, we do more for an MMA fighter and a boxer that's been in a ring than we do for the guys who are who just had an explosion go off right next to their head. And And again, we treat better. We we give too much credibility to a guy who had a Carl Gustav go go off next to his head. we you know, we give them too much credit to sit there and say, Are you okay? And then we sit ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I'm fine. Eric Schwalm: there and go, by the way, how's your family life? And it's like ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: y you're a head injured patient. And and for me, like even the discovery of my own PTSD, the level it was, I didn't realize it because you know how when you go in you see that the doctors they give you that that five question thing it's like is everything okay at the home do you feel safe blah blah blah that's nothing compared to the PTSD TBI protocols when you actually go to behavioral health and they make you take that test that they have that's like a hundred questions long ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: and it was in taking like I was I went there I thought okay maybe I got a problem and I went there and I took that test and I started crying during that test because for the first time ERIK LAWRENCE: You realised it. Eric Schwalm: I I saw, you know, they ask the five questions. They asked five different questions from a different perspective. They talk about your how you feel about yourself. Well how what about your future? You know, what do you think about, you know, how is your in your life and your family? And all these and when I saw it in its entirety, and I saw how I could see this that I was putting in low scores. It wasn't intentional. I was being honest about it, but it's only when I saw it it's in in its entirety, from a non head injured perspective. with no ulterior motives, no goals to get away from it or run away ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: from it, that it just like a wave of emotion and tears that came over me and I'm like, I'm in trouble. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Like I've got I I I was so ev even though I could project that I'm okay, internally I was so down on myself and how I felt around everybody that I was I I was reduced to nothing. I was just a floating body moving through space and time. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. No, and that's where thank goodness there's at least so many more programs now than hell twenty or thirty years ago. 'Cause it was unheard of. If you would have said one word, you're kicked to the B team Eric Schwalm: Yes. Yes. Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: or kicked a battalion. And and you're a solid trooper, you know. But there was zero, Eric Schwalm: Yes. And and you're a solid trooper, you know. Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: zero compassion back then. Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: And and that doesn't speak Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: well of the force long term. You know, you were in it long Eric Schwalm: No. ERIK LAWRENCE: enough to go, how do you keep a guy productive and successful in the rest of his life while he's doing the service? Instead Eric Schwalm: Right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: of being used as a cog and in the cog broke, you throw it out. Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yeah. They you know, when you're an employee in the same system that the person that you're you're dealing with is you know, and you got a production value that you need to produce and you're looking at a piece, a major piece of your puzzle that's a great piece and ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: you may s have to sit there and say, I need to take you out and put you in a concussion protocol, th that's that's significant. I was one of the I was in one of the very first surveys that they did within the groups where they they started coming through and saying how how are we looking at our soldiers and are we giving them the the the safe space to sit there and say I'm not okay? And I was the representative of the warrant officer component where I had a a good team sergeant who was next to me and he said, If look, if a guy on my team says he's a he's not doing okay, I'm I'm kicking him off the team and I'm ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: and I I looked over at him and and I was like, Wow you know, but it's it's it was such a ERIK LAWRENCE: Feelable. Eric Schwalm: Right. I like do you realize what you just said? You know, what you're condemning that person to, it's ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: a it's an it's an if then, you know? It's it's ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: one hundred percent all or nothing. And and and there's no room for him to sit there and say, Hey, I'm you know, I'm not feeling right. Things aren't aren't going the way anybody ever briefed me about and I I have no plan for. ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. A and that's where there was no r there was no understanding of that for somebody to have that adult discussion. Even even you you were there in the nineties, there was not a lot going on. We could have been really good at that. You know, it was Eric Schwalm: Yep. No. Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: it was no money, you know, back then. So we we could have taken a lot of that a lot more serious, but you know, you kicked the can down the road or or it just wasn't in the climan the command climate at the time. I remember do you remember when they passed that survey out in group to like get like the command climate for all of SF. R XO Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: got caught throwing in the incinerator, they were so fucking bad because everybody Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: was ready to hang themselves, you know? I saved one of those. I don't know where it is, but the questions were just it's like, this is anonymous. If you answered it truthfully, it would go exactly down to who you are without your name on it. Were you on a mountain team? What Eric Schwalm: yeah. yeah. Yeah. And ERIK LAWRENCE: year were you on a mountain team? What group you know, it's like, come on. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yeah. In in the Warren Off like in the Warren Officer course we did anonymous surveys there among the students and we we like I said, we had really good instructors. and we could see the feedback and we knew who it was. We we absolutely but we took ERIK LAWRENCE: Of course, yeah. Eric Schwalm: it we took it as anonymous. So we were like I said, we were really, really good. We never held anything against anybody. we we were it was just like I said, the joy of being in that environment was was fantastic to sit there and go, no, we know exactly who's saying that and why they're saying it and it's And you're like, okay, we're gonna have to ignore that now. It's like we we're gonna take what they took as a critique and then we're gonna sit there and and just treat them like we never we we have no idea ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: it's them and we did. We absolutely did. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well that's that's having judgment, you know, and and we know most guys in group aren't very opinionated, right? You know Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: if you don't know where they stand, they'll tell you within a second. Yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Right. No, no. no. They Yeah. Yeah. Catch on a good day. What do we say? It's like if you don't wanna if you don't wanna know the truth, don't ask the question, right? 'Cause we will tell you the truth. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. yeah. there's there's nothing more brutal than than team room time. I Eric Schwalm: yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: we have seen it all, thank goodness. Eric Schwalm: Yep. So go on go on go ahead. No, go ahead. ERIK LAWRENCE: But with that no go ahead. No no go. Eric Schwalm: So when we're we're talking about, you know, our understanding of things back back in the eighties, nineties and then as we go through one of the things I I was like just thinking about when I was r doing my cardio session today was we we're more educated, but our application of what we know is very, very low. Like I was talking about ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: with the the whole idea of we we We know the kids are stressed as as youth. We know that we know how we we have theories and ideas how to treat stress, but we're not putting kids into a stressful environment and applying those theories. So, you know, it's like, hey, we know that there's stress, but we're not doing anything with the we have all this knowledge, we're just not applying it. So taking taking that, one of the things that I would all as we there's so much that we're talking about that just keeps feeding back to the things I want to discuss was the the idea like you said, we didn't know how to be educated enough to t to understand what we're feeling, what we were seeing, what we're doing. And I think one of the things that we could do better, and again as we talk about, man, I hope they can understand and really process what I'm saying, is the idea that you are going to change and and to really teach that to our youth, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes. Wow. Eric Schwalm: to to look at it like the my best description that I can give for this is if you take just I'm gonna I'm gonna use a truck and I want you to picture a truck with front seats back seats okay you got your in the back seat you've got two child carriers so the front seats are separate and completely separate of each other now when you come in the military you have if you have two kids a wife and you you get inside that truck and you set your comfort settings for all those things the kids are in their car carriers you got your wife she's got her comfort settings on that you've got your comfort settings on If you just if you never deploy, if you guys stay together, you eventually throughout that that period of time you're gonna make adjustments on those car seats, but it's like boiling a frog. You're both witnessing the changes in the seats, you you change out the car ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: carry and your kids go into it, and it's all like boiling that frog. It's that slow, steady growth and of changes happening that you don't really sense. When you add in traumas, when you add in stressors, what's gonna happen is like if you go to combat, you experience things that change you and change your outlook from how you were when you grew up. If you've never killed somebody, now you've killed somebody and you've got to process that for the rest of your life. You cannot unkill somebody. So it's just like receiving an injury or you've you've made a lot of muscle mass all at once in a separate location, and you come back to that truck. And you get into that car seat and now you're making adjustments like you're moving back, you're ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: lifting it up and stuff like that. Something has changed. In order for you to be comfortable, you've got to adjust the car seat. During that same time period while you were gone, your wife, who you used to sit there and dote on, and you would sh you know, she always rode in the car seat next to you when you went shopping. She is now driving her own car. She is moving the kids in and out. She Her growth is happening. She's having changes as well. And so now if you had just left that car alone, if you never use, nobody used that car while you were gone, and you come back and everybody gets back in, the kids don't sit in the car seats anymore. You got to take the car seats out. Your wife gets into their car for the first time and she resets the car seat to what's comfortable for her based on her new driving experiences. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: You get in and you make adjustments on that car seat just because of all the changes that have happened to you. And all of you are looking around and watching all these changes happen. For her and the kids, it's nothing really new. ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Eric Schwalm: For you, you're looking over and going, wow, everybody changed. And they're looking at you and going, you've changed. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And it's dynamic. And nobody told you that they were going to ch that they were going to change. And now when you hear things like, if you're that husband that came home and your wife says to you, you've changed. And you sit there and you think, I want to get back into she she may want you to get back into that comfortable seat that you were in before you left. But you've changed. That car seat is not going back the same way. You can't, that's not comfortable for you anymore. And you gotta look at her and and explain it's like this is the new comfort here. And it's not and you have again same team, you're looking at her, it's like you changed. I you've changed your seat. And I don't like that. And if if you as a as a couple, if you haven't already set in motion the the abilities to look at each other and accept those changes, now you get that's where ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. yeah. Eric Schwalm: the head butting starts. And then the head butting starts with yourself too. It's like, man, it's like that con that seat was really, really comfortable before and I'd really like to get back in it. It's like you're not getting back into it, ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: brother. and this and this was what my therapist had to go through with me. It's like I kept telling her over and over, it's like, you know, I I really feel bad because I want to be that kid, that good kid that my mom and dad raised. But I'm not that good kid that my mom and dad raised, at least not under the understanding that I understood it to be. And I've I've killed people. I've I've done things, I've horrible things to other people just because it had to happen at the time. I've changed. I've got to sit there and go, okay, what is my new comfort level? Can I help other people understand? my comfort level and also myself. Can I sit there and look at myself and go, Eric, this is you. You're good. Okay. This happened to you. You're going to have sleepless nights. It doesn't have to upset your entire day. As long as and again, of ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: where where PTSD will take you up here and keep you here. And because you ERIK LAWRENCE: Keep you there, yeah. Eric Schwalm: have no method of recovery from it, it just keeps you in that tone. Plus the beating, you've changed. You're not the person I married. Your dad, you know, it's like, my kids have grown up and I've I've missed so much. My wife's changed. She's not the person I I I remember anymore. And it's just b- bum ba bum ba bum ba bum ba bum. It's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. All right, Eric. My wife's changed. Accept it. Let's look at her for who she is. She's changed before. She's changed different th okay, no problem. I've recovered from that and t to I'm different. Accept it. Walk your way back down. And and again you go from way up here to long s to here and changes. And eventually you you still have to deal with like even the little thing of being told you're different by somebody that you love. Like ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I go home and visit my family and they haven't seen me and they haven't gone through all the process like you're different. Right up here, right away, I'm different. no. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I was like, wait a minute, Eric, you've heard you've you've heard your wife tell you hear the therapist go through. It's like now let's get on our curve, let's get it back down, let's get it back down. And it becomes this is disorder. This is PTS. Okay? ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I'm stressed. I know the slope down. I I I even know it's coming. It's like it's one of ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Eric Schwalm: the like it's like I tell I've told my kids that like if you're gonna have major changes in your life, like if you go deploy somewhere, the first two weeks that you're in a new country, you're in a new school, you're in a new hotel, going through a school, the first two weeks are miserable because it's change. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: You're not sleeping in the same bed, the bathroom isn't in the same spot, where you eat is different, all these things are changed. It takes about two weeks for that all settle down, and then that becomes the new norm. Up, down, and when the kids understood that, they they could sit there and go, I'm getting stressed by all this change. the school is so stressful. Two weeks. Don't don't call me about it being stressful for the first two weeks. ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Eric Schwalm: I want you to tell yourself this is going. i it eventually the change itself is not stressful. They're like, no, I expected this. I expected ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes, exactly. Eric Schwalm: the change the the change the dynam of like again, now when you teach people this up front, look, when you come home, that car seat ain't gonna fit the same way and they're like, and then they get in the car seat and they sit there and set the adjustment go, Hey, they told me this was gonna happen And you look ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: over at your wife and she's changing the car seat like, I knew that was gonna happen. And it's like, wow, this is I n I knew this was gonna happen. I can deal with this. I've already got I've already planned it. I've already experienced changes before in my life. I've gone through it. Give your wife two weeks to change that car seat before you say anything about her changing the car seat. Give yourself two weeks of like, this is different and before you sit there and start looking at your car seat as to whether it's right or wrong. Okay, the kids aren't sitting in their car they don't have car seats anymore. They now just sit in seatbelts. Two weeks, brother. It'll p that normal the them kids sitting back there without the car seat will be absolutely normal two weeks from now. It may feel a little weird still, but eventually it'll level out and and that process of up down, up down. Inoculated as youth, up down, up down. Making people aware of this is that's gonna happen in your life. Up down, up down, up down. And Mm. No. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, but that's the point. It's not permanent. You you you've got I mean, and at work, we're always ready for a change. 'Cause nothing in nothing in group two days are the same. And we're we're not Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: shocked by that. But back when we were deploying so much and I'd be back for thirty days, no one wanted me back for thirty days. They're like, Don't can't Eric Schwalm: Nope. ERIK LAWRENCE: you go back early? You know, 'cause Eric Schwalm: I've god I heard that one. Isn't it time for you to go? Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yep. my son, I I bash him all the time. I'm like, you little shit He was like six. He goes, Dad, can't you find a war to get into? You know, I'm like, Yeah, sure. Yeah. I was Eric Schwalm: god, yeah. Have h or when you're a dad and you come home and your your adult boy is sitting in your chair. Because he's had to be the adult boy. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: And it's like, all right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, big change. Big change. A and that that is such good points to get out. We have to harp on that because it you know what it would prevent. Zillions of divorces, fights, it money issues, kid issues, estrangement. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: yes. Yeah. yeah. Yes. Yes. And and that's telling everybody. Like I did a when I was the I got to be when I had the surgery on my shoulder and my neck, I got to be I was the acting battalion commander for f First of Fifth Special Forces, twice actually for a deployment for them. I got I w at one point I only had one company forward and all the companies were back. ERIK LAWRENCE: Hm. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah. That's real. Eric Schwalm: So I'm like the the the b battalion commander minus a c the the H H C so and right. And so I for all of them coming back, I would h I would go to the the the the little wives circle where they get together a bit and they talk ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Eric Schwalm: about, you know, everybody coming back home. And like the the actual like the the the chaplain at the time would defer to me to talk ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha. Eric Schwalm: to the wives. Because I would brief them. It's like, look, I would I would everything, just like what I talked about with the boy. You know, hey, if your oldest son is sitting in that chair, th this is one of those times where if if he's sitting in that chair and your husband comes home and he sees him in the chair, Ugh, that's his chair. But his son's ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Eric Schwalm: sitting in there and he did that while he was done while while you were gone. He was the man of the house. And It's like, okay, I'm the man of the house. And you like you kick him out of that chair and it's like, Well, I was the man of the house. It's just like, you know, it's like the senior Charlie, and like you bring in a new Charlie and he kicks the senior Charlie out because he's more senior. And and so you have to sit there and talk. When I talk to the wives, I'm like, look, before your is your husband's gonna come home home? He's gonna be coming home in about, you know, a month from now or planning on it about two weeks, sometime around the two week time frame, and you're doing those phone calls back and forth. I want you to tell them. what you expect, okay? And it and draw out of them what they expect your day to be like. If you wanna if it's like don't surprise him with his family, your family ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: gre Look, hey, I'm gonna call my family and I'm thinking of having them come, you know, see us is come see you as soon as you come back home. Hold up, talk to him. Maybe what he's planning is to come home and get you in bed. Okay, and that's like the biggest thing on his mind because you've got him hot and ready and and he's looking forward to to feeling the experience of love and comfort in his home. And the first thing he's got to deal with is, you know, the entire family spectrum up to his parents who may have caused problems in his life. And you're gonna sh now he's gotta it's like, I wanna do this, you wanna do that. It's like before you guys get back together, plan out where do you wanna go to dinner? No, I don't want to go to dinner. I'd like to come home and I'd like to have a dinner with you guys. Okay, cool. You know, it's like, well, you know, g iron out all those things so that there is no shocks within the first couple days. You're not s do not surprise your husband coming home. Same thing to the husbands. I would talk to overseas. ERIK LAWRENCE: no. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Do not come home with expectations for your wife and your children that you have not specified. They should know. It's like, hey, you know, I would really appreciate it if you leave the kids at if you come get me while the kids are at school or If you can, you know, like if if your parents are nearby, can you put the kids over there and I'll see you first and the kids second? all of that. Don't ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: don't no shocks in the system. It ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: sounds horrible. You'd like to create surprises, everybody. You know, you're you're thinking birthday surprise of the husband coming home from work and you surprise him with a birthday surprise. Completely different from him being gone for six to eight months, coming ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: back home, and you're gonna throw a surprise on him. And then when he's not surprised and he's not happy. And all of a sudden those change seats that I talked ERIK LAWRENCE: Cup. Eric Schwalm: about are are there and you have just shocked everything. It's like, okay, you've ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. It's too much. Eric Schwalm: right, it's too much too soon. or those block leaves, you know, where right afterwards, like you come home and you spend you know, three or four weeks, and then we're gonna kick you out on two weeks leave. And then when you go out on two weeks leave, you're gonna go home and you're gonna go visit your family back up in New York or wherever you're from. And you go from, all right, two weeks of all the stress of recovery process. Getting back to my family. Now I'm gonna go on a trip, okay, which includes all the stressors of going on a trip. I haven't even processed how I feel about this. I haven't even acknowledged the change in my chair in the car anymore. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Now I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna see my family and I gotta meet and greet everybody and everybody's gonna call me to come to their house and visit them. Nobody's gonna come to my central location and visit me. Whoa, way up here. And and you're expect and then when you ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, it's too too much. Eric Schwalm: sit there and look at them go, you're different. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, no shit. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Really? Right. Okay. Thanks. Yeah. and by the way, he's he's got a t you're creepy. And he's got a TBI too. He ERIK LAWRENCE: And and you're cranky. Yep. Eric Schwalm: doesn't even know he's head injured. And and you just compound, compound, compound, compound, compound. Zero recovery going on. Nobody told him this was going to happen. Nobody told ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: him all the surprises. And this is why the chaplain would defer to me because I was the person who had gone through it all, who had seen the stressors, and said to them, Look, I'm not talking you out of some theoretical. I'm telling you as an SF Green Beret guy who's done this for over you know, for going on 10, 15 years of ex combat experience, do not do this. I'm not being mean. I'm not trying to intercept your good time. I'm telling you, if you want to have a good time, plan it. Okay? And it made a difference. And when you get when you when the you it was something when you see the f the the wives that are normally used to the chaplain giving a speech going, what? ERIK LAWRENCE: Who are you? Yeah, who's this guy? Eric Schwalm: I'm the guy who I'm the guy who really knows. I'm the truth. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well yeah, but now now we can actually turn these into programs because I used to abscond a week in Germany or Romania just to sit by myself for a week before I went back. Because the pro programs I was working, they could fly you back from Kabul with one stop and you'd be in DC. And you're like, That's Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: that's not gonna help. Same way with Baghdad. One stop in Paris and then you're home. my lord, Eric Schwalm: Right. Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: you talk about divorced city. Eric Schwalm: Yeah, do you know how remember how our fathers came home? Or maybe not your father, but your grandfather came home from World War II. Slow boat. 30 day boat, slow boat, come to California, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Slow boats. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Eric Schwalm: in process California, cool out, trans and for 30 days, no combat, with the your peers ERIK LAWRENCE: Yep. Yep. Eric Schwalm: that are hanging around you, you're all sitting there talking about it, you're all sitting there and and going through it's like, hey, and then when you n even better yet, when you got back to your neighborhood, all around you, because it was a ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: World War II, everybody around you had experience. ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Eric Schwalm: And so you could all work together. Like if your wife had a problem, she would g she'd go down the street and see Mabel down the street, whose husband also went through World War Two, and she's like, yeah, they're the same Then the two husbands get together, they chill out and have a beer, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: the two wives get together, they've both got a similar experiences and it's across the board as opposed to now ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, everything's f far too accelerated now. It's just brutal. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Right. You're home in twenty four hours. Your wife lives in the civilian community who has no experience that everybody's just been doing the same thing since you were gone. And some of don't even know you were gone. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And then you come back and you're the odd one. You are ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Eric Schwalm: the one who did something different from everybody else. ERIK LAWRENCE: And and if there's any classified or covert to it, it's you you multiply that. you're a cook. Yeah, I'm I'm a cook. That's what I do. You know, and you're sitting there going, Eric Schwalm: Right. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: You they have no idea what you did a week ago. You know, so Eric Schwalm: Right, right. ERIK LAWRENCE: and you know, with young kids that's even hard too. 'Cause w one time Jake was like, Eric Schwalm: yeah, imagine like ERIK LAWRENCE: Dad, wh why is everybody there a bad dad? I said, It's a city, son, it's not Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yeah, right. ERIK LAWRENCE: He got it confused. He thought they were all bad dads and that's why I was going over there and it just total child confusion, you know. Eric Schwalm: Right. I had to tell my kids I was I went in isolation for two thousand ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: one. And so th n d say nothing. That was I'm ERIK LAWRENCE: Back when we did it. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I'm go I'm going to work. I may not come home. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: You know, that it like how come dad didn't come home today? I don't even know if I'm coming home today. I ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: can't sit there and say I want to see you tonight. Maybe, maybe not. Or when we're in this when we used to do isolation. Right. And then CIF anymore. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, that's back when we used to do isolation. I mean it's probably unheard of anymore, you know. Eric Schwalm: Right. And the CIF you can't talk about the things we did. Or y you know, the train it's like we're ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. And you're riding that damn pager, you know. So yeah, people Eric Schwalm: Yes. yeah. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: have no idea the s the stress of that at the time. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. You know what'd you do over in Iraq? I went after bad guys. Is that it? Yes. Mm mm, yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Or l or less. Yeah. Wouldn't wasn't a fob it. Yeah, but with that, you know, you mentioned some of your your non OEM parts, your shoulder and your neck and this and that. Go through some injuries. And and my thing is now versus the way we used to get injured and you were out, now you can at least Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: get some rehab, get in a program, get the medical's better and it I think they take it more serious now. Eric Schwalm: Yes. Okay, ERIK LAWRENCE: Because Eric Schwalm: so here are I'm just gonna go from top to bottom through my injuries. So PTSD, TBI, that's a given. left ear, I have a implant in my left ear. I actually had a calcification of one of my inner inner bone ear bones. So I went from being a a hearing three to a hearing one when they replaced that, just the one bone with a titanium implant. Go down to my neck. C four through C seven were fused. left shoulder. is the humeral head has a titanium cap on it because of all the trauma and damage to it and where it d it basically looked like a a valley with mountains all around it. And they put a titanium and smooth that out. Right shoulder is a complete replacement. Right knee is a complete replacement. I have a hiatal hernia here which is unrepairable. It makes no sense to really repair it because all they do is tie in a knot and that knot may come undone and it goes right back. So I'm constantly dealing with GERD ERIK LAWRENCE: Guard. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: gastroesophageal reflux disorder. and and all of that. And so I was the the the only two things that got done outside of the military were my knee replacement and my shoulder replacement, which happened in the past year. all of that, the rest of that happened while I was in the military. So those are those are the injuries. the the the one thing that I will say like We're gonna look talk at the physical injuries and we'll talk about the mental injuries and and how these work. So it's j the way I look at it is kinda like lifting weights that you're you go in when you when it's all done, you are back to lightweight. And if you remember the very first time that you build up to being strong, there was this slow methodical build up. But you always had in your mind, I'm going to get stronger. You always ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: keep in your mind looking forward, not in a hurry. Down the road, you know, I n I you're not gonna see it in the mirror, it's a boiling frog again. That you sit you have to sit there, it's like like two weeks from now I'm gonna sit there and look at myself and see how things are going. And you have to get into this relationship with your doctor where it's a very positive relationship. I'm looking to get better. Help me get to better. I'm not looking ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: for for flatline. I want to get like here as a special forces Green Beret soldier. My standard is up here. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Even though I'm down here right now post injury, I am going to go back there. I even if I never ever reach it again because I'm getting, you know, getting close to 60, I am always my eyes are up, not forward, my eyes are up. And I've always treated all of my rehabs the same way. I am the f I want to be the first one done, like I'm going to listen to them perfectly. I'm going to do everything they tell me to do, and then I'm going to do two more. and I'm constantly trying to be I w I keep in mind I'm gonna be the best patient you've ever had. I'm gonna when you when then you sit there and say what could a a C four through C seven fusion look like post operative, I wanna be the person of the goal, that's the top. This is what you could potentially ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: be like. And that's my goal. And that's the way I've treated everything is as far as my physical goes. the mental, I did the I I have to take it this Kind of the same way, but it's a much longer period of time. When I went through the the whole idea of you can that jump up, jump down. So the way the the doctor explained it to me was it's a riverbed, okay? If you're you're a stressor, when you're how you're used to processing your stresses takes you into a very familiar riverbed. You're you're it's it's the path of least resistance to go into that old pattern. of that stress pattern that's that this that's disabling and everything else. It's very easy for you to go into that. What you're doing is you're creating a new riverbed off to the side, okay, but it's shallow. It's not the ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: it's not the easy route, okay? It's not the path of least resistance. My path of least resistance is to be a people pleaser. My ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: path of least resistance is to sit there and and stress. My the path of non least resistance, where I it's actually resistant to myself, is to sit there and go, Eric, you're gonna be okay. You've been through this before. You know the pattern of up and down, recognize where you're at, get on the path now. And and you're gonna sit there and start to get into that little thing. And you'll divert. You'll divert. Accept it, okay? You're gonna make mistakes, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: even with like with all your PTSD recoveries, you're gonna have a problem where you slip into the old path. That's fine. Accept it. That you recognize that, wow, I'm in this valley again. All right, I need to get back out. All right, cool. I can do that. And you'll go into it several times. Like like in the first year or so, one of the communications I did with my therapist was I I would tell them it's like I got into it. I was probably into it for about forty-eight hours before I came out of it and I started to get back in. And she's like, Okay. It's like that's good job. You recognized where you were at, you ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: got back out. It's it's no shame. This is exactly that whole muscle building process. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Okay, you can only lift five pounds. But what y you want to lift a hundred and twenty pounds. All right, fine, but you still gotta lift five pounds repeatedly over and over. And s and recognize your successes when they happen. It's like ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes. Eric Schwalm: wow, you know, like I was I sat there one time, I went into her and I said, it's like, man, I got this really bad shock. I explained it to her. I said I went down in this valley and I the I said, but the cool thing was I was in it for about Two and a half hours of just walking around by myself and be and I sat there and I was like, Eric, look where you're at and then I got back I was God, here I am. I'm in that that and I went back out and I said, But and I told her, I said, I was so excited that I reck within a sh much ERIK LAWRENCE: That's Eric Schwalm: shorter period of time. I was like, that was a success. I was only in that valley for two and a half hours of depression. And but I still went there. It's like you most people would go, shame, shame, shame. You were PTSD and all depressed and everything. No, no, I was only in there for two and a half hours. I came back out. And and it shame, you're ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. And you identified it. Eric Schwalm: only Right, you're only lifting five pounds. Yeah, I know, but I can lift twenty, you know. It's like, no, I'm look, I'm right back up there again. Success, success, success. They're small. They're so small. ERIK LAWRENCE: Small. Small, yeah. Eric Schwalm: I only put two point fives on my bench, you know on the edge, but I that's five more pounds, you know. It's like, hey celebrate the successes. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, but that's something we gotta we gotta get out is you know, some people can't name their last success because they don't know how to define success. And then that keeps them in the hole. And and if Eric Schwalm: Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: you wake up and you do one thing that you plan to do, that can be success at that moment. Eric Schwalm: my God, yeah. Yeah. That's like super like if the first day that you get up and you you like man I I I was you know, I'd get up and I'd just sit around and I wouldn't do anything wrong. And the first day you get up and you go to the gym and you you you get a good workout in it and you come back and then you go fall right back into your slope again, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: fine. But then you sit there and you're like, my god, you know, that's like that now my challenge is I gotta get up and do it again. and it we it r ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Well showing up there is a win for a lot of people. Eric Schwalm: Redef yep. Redefine success. You know, it's like, look, ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Yes, sir. Eric Schwalm: after every surgery, how I define success was I had to go in and re when I go back into the gym, I gotta sit there and see what success looks like. And ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: you know, you're doing those first test weights and you're like, Man, I the whole moving the bar up and down is that's it. That's all I got, brother. And then, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: you know, you a year and a half later you sit there and got forty fives and you're putting that new ten on the on each side, you're like, All right, we're gonna do it. And y but That day that you're you it's like it it's it's a shock 'cause you knew what you looked like, but you don't look like that anymore. And that's an old guy thing. That's something we understand probably more than right. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, but that's yeah, I mean we live that. Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Right. Yep. You're constantly redefining success of what it's like, all right, so I can't live three twenty five anymore or you know, it's like, man. It's like I'm I'm down to you know, one th I'm down to one thirty five because that's that's post surgery. It's like, Man, this blows. But ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: you know You yeah, it's like I can head back there again. I can head I may not get totally back there, I may have to redefine my new h weight level of what success was, but I know what the pattern looks like. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, and w back in the day we weren't good patients 'cause I've remembered going to the doc I I shouldered a door one day, you know, J V move, you know, popped the clav, got it sawed off Eric Schwalm: No, ERIK LAWRENCE: and they're like, Keep this in a sling for I don't know how long. I'm in the team room, you know, Eric Schwalm: Six weeks. ERIK LAWRENCE: lifting rucks off the top of the f fucking wall locker and stuff and just wincing in pain and 'cause otherwise they're throwing Eric Schwalm: yeah. Brilliant. ERIK LAWRENCE: you off the team, you know, and it's it's yeah. Eric Schwalm: Yep, yep. Well we're gonna camouflage that one. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, it was yeah. It was like, wow, we are just so so bad about that. But but with that redefining Eric Schwalm: No. we are. We were ERIK LAWRENCE: we're not giving guys shit for getting repaired and allowing them Eric Schwalm: Mm. ERIK LAWRENCE: the amount of time needed to actually properly rehab. And that's where the new Thor systems, which are amazing, Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: you know, I mean, compared to the universal weight set and set of dumbbells for a battalion. Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: I I went down to first group years ago and I walked into that Thwart facility, you know, the the gym facility, Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: and I sat down on a bench and cried. 'Cause I'm Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: like, they got strength coaches, physical therapists, speed coaches, twenty bench presses. Yeah. I'm just like, I don't want Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. Yep. You can get dry needling done there for God's sakes, yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: to hear a word from you sissies, you know? they're hard, man. They're hard. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: E right we call sissies, but th they're actually smart, you know, like you guys my g I love I love yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: They're so much fitter than we were because I mean we were eating Taco Bell for lunch, drinking a twelve pack at night, you know, doing Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: six and six and w yeah, we we we were just we had no idea. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah. There's but there's differences. There's there's differences in in between both generations. you know, they may be you know, stronger and faster and all those other things where we had to come up with new ideas faster than they do. We had to Yeah, we ERIK LAWRENCE: we had a choice, yeah. We didn't have a lot of resources. Eric Schwalm: No, no. So our our ability to adapt to a difficult situation and come up with a new or look at it with multiple different methods was it was actually encouraged. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: like across your team, it's like, all right, everybody quick look let's look at this thing and everybody comes up with new ideas and nobody's afraid to do that. Where now they're incredibly strong, incredibly fast, but one of the gifts that they've lost over time is there may be those brilliant individuals out there, but everybody's kinda like really I don't want to s make any real suggestions about possibly changing those our problem. No. no. ERIK LAWRENCE: really? yeah, that was never our problem. I I remembered one time I figured out I wasn't getting promoted from this one NCOER I got. My team sergeant wrote, Eric's candor is sometimes appreciated. And I'm like, I Eric Schwalm: Sometimes. ERIK LAWRENCE: don't know if that's an insult or a compliment. I'm like, hmm, I Eric Schwalm: Right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: don't think I'm getting promoted this board. Eric Schwalm: No, no, not today, no. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, but that's the way it was back then, you know. I mean if if and every there was a lot of experience, you know. Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: it's I I've trained a lot of the guys, you know, in the last, I don't know, dozen years and I had seen a huge difference. They're much more tech, they're very smart, they Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: learn very quickly, but the hard Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: skills aren't as hard as ours had to be back then because we didn't have a choice. Eric Schwalm: Right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: but I think they can learn them quickly. Eric Schwalm: they can. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: They they've got they've got it out there. They're just not being challenged with it. adaptability is like d you know, y one of the things I do and when I teach BJJ is I take resources away. Like, okay, you gotta fight this guy, but you're gonna have tennis balls any chance, so I've taken away your grips. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: Now adapt. Okay, figure it out. same thing like with like you said, they're over over te oversaturated with tech and knowledge and available knowledge to them, but the ability to adapt isn't there. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: Because they're not being challenged, because all the resources are there. It's like, okay, well I'm gonna pull these resources away from you. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well Eric Schwalm: Which is why when they go to JRTC or something like that and are like, ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Eric Schwalm: I'm taking away they they take away like certain things. And people are like, god or commanders ERIK LAWRENCE: Vapor Lock. Eric Schwalm: when you take away yeah. When you take away ISR from commanders ERIK LAWRENCE: Ho ho ho ho ho I bet they vapor lock. That would be I would cry to watch that talk. To see see that happen. Eric Schwalm: I would cry to watch that. Yeah, the two two things right right. I'm gonna take away your ISR, you get one comma day. Good luck. ERIK LAWRENCE: I remember one time we got one image from a a P3 Orion and it looked like a stick drawn crayon thing and we thought it was like the best sat like picture we ever saw. We're like, I think that's a person on target, you know. We're like, this is this is and now no s ISR, Eric Schwalm: Yep. Nope. ERIK LAWRENCE: they're not watching Kill TV. You know, they they would lose their mind. 'Cause the micromanagement was outrageous. You know, I I hated everybody Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. One would lose their mind. One comma day. Yep. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: carrying a satcom. Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: you know, we all had embitters and I'm like, come on, this ain't gonna be good. I I I I just want Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: a combo guy and then he can discern what he's gonna tell everybody or not. And yeah, T I. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. Yep. Imagine a commander nowadays being told, Okay, I'm pulling your ISR, you get one comma day. So your mission, your commander's intent, your your tasks, key tasks, and and desired end state better be on point. Because ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Eric Schwalm: once once you once they stop talking to you, you stop talking face to face ERIK LAWRENCE: It's gone. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: that's it. You get one shot and it's not a b a two-way conversation. You get to send one thing, they get to send one thing back. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yep. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: No two-way conversation. So everything's gotta be understood. And that was the how we operated before and it gave it gave you that resilience to sit there and come up with ideas. Where with the over technology of the p the two way conversation and and trying to figure things out technically and all these takes away that resilience. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And and so I love like over when we did the the field exercise for the Warren Oscar course, they were reduced to one common day. And and so we evaluated them Like you got warrant officers out there running around. Like there's groups of twelve warrant officers, and like this is that that that good idea fairies are everywhere among them. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah, everywhere. Eric Schwalm: And you and we hit them, we like we war game so many scenarios and we we were man, we wanted to we punched them all over the place and we had the country boys as our as our indage. And those country boys were had came up with better ideas than we did. And ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Of course, yeah. Eric Schwalm: because these are just old guys for, you know, working in the Baptist churches and stuff like that. And boy, if they They could w we're doing like real time conversation between the two and I'm watching from the sidelines while you know, this the the current team leader is negotiating with the G Chief and and the G Chief's a country boy and he's like, Did you just ERIK LAWRENCE: Wearing out. Eric Schwalm: promise me something did you just promise me something? And the you just see they're like the what did I just do? ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. shit. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I had no authority to promise them anything. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And I'm just sitting there like, it like I I didn't have the ability to tell the G Chief to listen for that. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And he's like, Did you just promise me guns? And everybody like every like the whole room, you could you just all the air got sucked out of the room from all the green berets. 'Cause ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. hell. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: this is pre when you're their their field exercise is pre. You're n you have ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: not we are the Americans are not there yet. You are in the negotiating ERIK LAWRENCE: Of course, yeah. Eric Schwalm: phase with the G chief and they've just promised guns. And they're like, Who k ERIK LAWRENCE: Well yeah, but that's where you have to be able to think on your feet, because these people have been in survival Eric Schwalm: yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: mode their entire life. You know, Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: and I don't care where what country they're in, they they are that sharp. And well they have to be. They they Eric Schwalm: Yep. they want they are on it. Much sharper than you are. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: don't know how long we're gonna be there. I mean, I used to work with the Kurds too, and boy, every sentence Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: you said to them you had to measure because they were noting everything. Eric Schwalm: yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: And they could play angles way down the road than what you were thinking, way past your deployment. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. Yep. Our our G chief had negotiated with the Russians back during the ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. And you're an American talking to him thinking you're gonna be slick? Ha ha Good luck. Yep. No, we were J V. Yep. yeah. No. ERIK LAWRENCE: No, no way. No, we were JV compared to that. There there's no way. No, it's and I always tell guys, I remember my first war, you know, you you get nothing right. Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Right. I had to one of the things in the CIF and one the things I had to explain to my guys is like, you know, you they're all coming in there, like if they're their very first deployment, they go off through Sephardic and they come to the team and then we go deploy over to Iraq with it w to work with the ICTF and it's like the ICTF has actually been built since two thousand five. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And here's a kid who just graduated he's an eighteen X, went through Sephardic, got to the team has zero combat experience, he's ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: gonna go overseas, he's gonna meet an ICTF soldier who's been in through t since before the ICTF. He was back there when it was the 36 Commandos. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: So he shows up. He's got more runs in in live fire situations than this kid has in training. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And this kid in training is gonna sit there and tell this ICTF guy how ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: it's gonna run. And I you see the ICTF guy kinda lean back and look at me. He's like ERIK LAWRENCE: Humor, humor. Eric Schwalm: Run with it, brother. Just just run with it. I know he's just an E six. He's like, just you you and I can talk about this laughter. You know, listen, roster number twelve, because you were in the very first ICTF course. ERIK LAWRENCE: Just yeah, sh Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: It's like j we'll talk about this over here when this is we'll laugh about it. It's like Yes, right. Right. He's he's ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, he's getting paid for it, so he he could take the humor, but Eric Schwalm: an American trained shooter. It's like you've been doing how ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: many shoot shootouts have we been through together? Yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Just just currently yeah, CTG was that way working with those guys and you know, they've been through Saddam and they've been through everything. They've lived in caves, Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: you know, when they were kids 'cause Saddam was trying to annihilate all. And I I caught well, I caught ODA having Eric Schwalm: Right. Right. But you American are gonna teach them. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: pick up their steel cases on the range. I'm like, What the fuck are you doing? He goes, I'm pick making Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: pick up my range. I go, dude, you're in Kurdistan. Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: They've been fighting since they were a child. Do not make these guys pick up steel cases Eric Schwalm: Yes. No. No. ERIK LAWRENCE: on a range. I said, No, you you're not on a J set, you know, wearing his bot chain Eric Schwalm: No. ERIK LAWRENCE: and Tevas And, I'm like, No, don't don't don't insult these guys like that. Yeah. That's Eric Schwalm: Don't do that. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: just Eric Schwalm: No. Because they're laugh they're gonna walk away and laugh at you. And they're gonna talk horrible about you. Mhm. Talk shit about you. ERIK LAWRENCE: they'll scope they're gonna talk shit about you because yeah, that's not that's not gaining loyalty. some of the yeah, I mean, Eric Schwalm: No. That's not respecting them from the get go. Yeah. Go ahead. ERIK LAWRENCE: but and we we used to in isolation, you would study where you're going and what you're gonna do, area study and culture and all that. Nowadays Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: people just show up. You know, I I had two case officers show up one time and we were talking to the Talibanis and they're like, Yeah, we studied Kurds in college. And one of the one of the Talibanis is like, like a fucking zoo animal? And they're from Oxford, you know, they're they're school trained in Oxford, perfect English. I'm like, wow, you've really Eric Schwalm: Right. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: made a good first impression there. I'm like, you can leave the office now. You know. Like, come here, dumb one. Yeah, yeah. Culture. one Eric Schwalm: yep. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, brilliant. Thanks. You're right. Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: thing I want us to not forget is the family unit isn't trained for any of this stuff. And they take the brunt of it. Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yep. No ERIK LAWRENCE: And the kids, you know, my kids, everybody else's kids, you know, they grew up. Dad's going on trips back and forth, back and forth, and you know, it wasn't World War Two where you came back when you were done. You know, it was a constant ebb and f I don't know, it had to be constant terror, you know, coming home. Eric Schwalm: Yep. And everybody's dad back in World War Two was was involved. And not ERIK LAWRENCE: True, yeah. Eric Schwalm: where right, you know, kids go to school and and just your dad is gone. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, correct. Yeah, you're right about that. That's a hard point too. Eve Eric Schwalm: I can't imagine what these National Guard groups are like, you know, 'cause like if you're around a b a post, you know, yep, if you're like hunt when we're up there at Fort Campbell, families are coming and going all the time. Where if you're in a National Guard group like you know, down in Lower Alabama down there and your National Guard team deploys overseas, like there isn't a s a single civilian ERIK LAWRENCE: No. Eric Schwalm: around you who has any comprehension of what you're going through. So n ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, and most of the guys live an hour or two away from the unit. So there is zero chance that other teammates' wives are gonna be even near. I mean, that's just the way the guard works. And Eric Schwalm: Right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: I don't know, I just I don't know how we teach that. Eric Schwalm: So that comes down to that Yeah. So the one of the problems is is is with the the expectation management. If you're gonna put any sort of expectation management training into this, where do you put it in the pipeline? can I put it in, you know, before I optimally I would love to put it in before SFAS before you even get step out there. Or even it's it's it's like look, hey, this is when it's gonna happen, but you have no idea whether they're gonna graduate SFAS. All right, so fine. ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Eric Schwalm: Not before SFAS. All right. So after S FAS while they're going through the Q course. Might be a great time to head to pull the all the the wives and the at least the wives in and couples in together. Start your first couple therapies, and and then family, you know, teaching, training and and s application in that realm before they get to the team and then you know once they get to the team have something there too because if you think about it, it's kinda like playing a like a playing a video game. It's like you've got your before you ever get into SFAS, that's the free. That's the free ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: game. That's the the trial period. Then you get into to SFAS and now you're in novice. You get to the ODA and now you're in the middle ground. And then when you're deployed you're an expert as far as like the you how we talk about there's levels to this? You know, you get into combat, you're in expert mode at this point, and you're and ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: you can't just be there by yourself. Your family has to be in expert mode too. And so when we we take families and we don't give them any indoctrination, while the husband, you know, may be at expert mode, going out there and going to combat, we've ERIK LAWRENCE: No, yeah. Eric Schwalm: spent so much time and money into the the husband to get him over there. The the the ha the family may be in either somewhere between novice and beginner on the same game. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, totally. Eric Schwalm: And you're expect and they're you're expecting them to perform. And you can't do that. You've got to it's it's i if you're gonna treat them like a team, you gotta treat like a you know, you've got to train the whole team. ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Both wife, kids, and the the husband. And that those seats on the and that car are going to change. and to to recognize when there may be problems and to appreciate the problem and know where it is where they are on that line. of the the graph of the up and down. It's like, hey, recognize that your husband is here. They're not here, that's a good thing, ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: you know? Or recognize your husband's here and is not coming down there and tell them, Hey, honey, you're s you're up here and I can't I'm not seeing any anything where you're starting to slide down and into that recovery phase or you're you're recognizing where you're at. Maybe it's time to go talk to somebody. And she also is like, patient care. and the same thing with the kids when you're looking at the kids and y your kid may be up here because of everything you've done and they're not sliding back down too. It's like, okay, we we need to take a moment, help the kid appreciate where they are on the graph. You may not be able to explain the graph to them, but there are options that you can you can do to help okay, we need to get a them on the slide. And that they are going to be okay and we can get them there. And there's there's so much that could be done there. but ERIK LAWRENCE: immense. Eric Schwalm: it comes down to money, budgets You know, what people how we talk about it as at the team, it's like I I'm not send I'm not going to any of these family bull crap things. And we used to bash our network. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: we used to bash on that like it was free. You know, and that was so amateur of us. Eric Schwalm: Yeah. And even the basic get togethers that they did, you know, like it w everybody would everybody would fight to try to be on the chaplain retreats. You know, it's like, ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Eric Schwalm: they're going to Nashville, we're gonna get a hotel. You go through like maybe two classes while you're there, and then you the rest of the f it's is free time at the hotel. And the only reason you're right, the only reason you're really there is to go to the hotel. Never mind the the what's gonna come out of the the chaplain's retreat. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And we're not we don't treat it as part of the overall program where we need to It it's not just talk about it off to the side. It needs to be elevated a as a constant just the same as much as we talk about ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: all your other skills in SF. If I really want you to be that pure operator that I want, that family life skill set has gotta be just as good as your eighteen Delta, as your eighteen Charlie. Your eight your your skill sets it's like we are there and ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, but imagine if it operated that way, how much there wouldn't be problems down the road. Cause I I'm Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: trying to, you know, get concepts across earlier and earlier so they're not running into what we we ran into, you know. And I haven't really touched this Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yeah. And in all the ERIK LAWRENCE: in some of the books I've wrote, but I want to quantify it like you do and explain that, Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: you know, and and you know, budgets, budgets, budgets. But if somebody Wants to work Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: on it, I know SF used to stand for self financed. If you wanted it, you went out and bought it. So if you need the info, you buy the book. Yeah, I mean it's just we didn't have a choice. We there was zero budget. And it's a good time to be on a mountain team 'cause they just say go climb, go away. See you in a month or two. that's once Eric Schwalm: Right? yeah. Yeah. Down to Ranger Joe's, yeah. Yeah. Yep. It's a good time to be on a mountain tank. yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. ERIK LAWRENCE: you buy me a rope, it's over. but I I Eric Schwalm: Yeah, right. It's good for a couple of years. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah, it gets worried. Yeah, I did one for a couple years. That was enough for me. I don't mountain climb anymore. No. but i you you know, you only did thirty-four if you call that a lot. I call that an immense amount. Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: you've seen these cycles, you've worked in the different shops that allowed you to Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: improve those cycles. You know, a lot of the guys don't have that leniency. They're not getting they're not thinking of it in that level to turn it into a program or to turn it into some type of common to all skill set. so Eric Schwalm: Right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: it's very important to get, you know, your messaging out there and and, you know, we're not Eric Schwalm: It is. ERIK LAWRENCE: gonna capture everything on this one, but if we think of something, we can Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: pop back on another one, man. Because I I I like to Eric Schwalm: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: programmize things and to turn them into some kind of SOP that lets somebody that's really not into it, still be able to do it. Because Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: not everybody yeah that's the problem. You can't teach somebody to be an S F guy. I'm sorry. They they're born that way. Eric Schwalm: Now imagine if we could go back yet with all the knowledge that we have right now and and ERIK LAWRENCE: my gosh. Eric Schwalm: and go back to those various positions that we were in ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: and incorporate all the knowledge that we've gained now and go, man, you know, there's so much so many things I would have done different that would have made things so much better. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: my gosh, and long term better. I mean, look how many I mean, we Eric Schwalm: yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: had we had warrants in in group that had four divorces. Some some from the same wife a couple times, you know. So it's like, well Yeah, obviously. I'm like, hmm, I forget the guy's Eric Schwalm: Yeah. 'Cause you don't learn the first time, right? Okay, yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: name, but he was ancient. But he goes, Yeah, I just got married Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: again. To who? my second ex wife. I'm like, okay. Brilliant, brilliant. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. I've I've got I've got my own divorce, and I again grace to each other. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, we all do, yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Right, but I've given so, you know, what happened between myself and my my first wife was a lot of mistakes. A lot of the things I j and give yourself grace, number one, I didn't know. I didn't know what I know now. I'm not sure if I could a you know, looking back at with what I had available to me at the time I didn't know I I wouldn't have done anything different 'cause I just didn't know. And then go, all right, look, Eric, give yourself grace for being an idiot and just not knowing. You it's there's no way you could have known. And the same thing, it's like I didn't know her you know, what was going on in her upbringing. I didn't know what was going on in my my upbringing where I could turn it around like I was still a people pleaser. and when I couldn't please her, that made me feel depressed all the time. Because she had her own little things which What e even if she didn't know I was trying to please her and that to make me happy, I she had to say, yeah, you're pleasing me. You know, you're everything you're buying from me, the house and everything, you're you got me at this level of happiness. She never commuted that communicated that. Again, grace. She didn't know she had to communicate that. I didn't know I was looking for that. And so in hindsight, you know, there's no way to repair it or anything that's happened. it's a it's a life learning lesson. Give yourself the grace to accept what's happened and then All right, so I take all those lessons. If I keep making the same mistake, that's on me now. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: and so with my my new wife, one of the things that Eva like I had to go learn to l live by myself, learn to appreciate who I was, and then now that I'm with my new wife, who also went through the same process after a divorce of her own, where we both lived by ourselves for several years, and then we t got together and together we like she is just constantly There's this open thing. I owe her nothing. I'm not trying to make her happy. I'm not taking all my old crap that I I learned about myself and I'm not putting it on her. So I'm not th in this realm of trying to please her. And she's at the a point where she's she has no hidden games going on in herself. There's nut th it took me months to just sit there and look at her and I kept waiting for the shoe to fall. It's like when's the trap? ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: You know, where is she gonna sit there and and give me this okay, th you know, here's what you fell into and here's the w the the There's nothing and I'm like looking around for it all the time and it took me months to realize Right, ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, we're paranoid people, so yeah. Eric Schwalm: right, we're paranoids like you there's th okay, there's nothing here. And she says things to me like, use your adult voice, tell me, you know, don't try to sit there and go this hidden route of trying to communicate. It's like you know, what do you want for dinner? It's not a d it's an open thing of like this is what I really want for dinner. And she's like, All right, and we're that's it. That's there's no hidden meanings. There's no hidden games going on. Everything is so open and relaxed. Like I tell people I said the one thing my wife has given me more than anything is peace. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Eric Schwalm: I there's I'm there's nothing else going on in my head. There's no game playing. What is is. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And because number one, I cleaned up my own bullshit. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: I looked into myself and I found out my own bullshit. You know, the whole what my parents dumped on me, the the things I grabbed from growing up and that I took into my adulthood that messed me up, that made me think a certain way. And I I I Eric, you're this way. You're a people pleaser. You're which makes me a great SF soldier, you know? And it's like ERIK LAWRENCE: Yep. Service. Service. Service. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Right, right, right. So and it's like, well, I can't I'm not trying to make her happy. I'm just doing my thing and she's Self-happy by herself. And and so there's this peace in our household. I'm happy with my cat. My cat, I can I can show love to my cat without offending anybody or making anybody feel bad. I can put my kid the our my stepchildren into fish bowls of where we sit there and I put them into a little bit of a stress thing, but we've already discussed it beforehand, what it's gonna look like when we're gonna pull them out. We put them in and out of st out of fish bowls. And she knows what I'm doing. I've if I have a problem with one of the kids, I go through it with her. We come up with a plan of action of how we're going to do it. I if either one of us has bullshit from our childhood that we're trying to to work through, we go, Are we am I am I saying you know, I can ask her, I'm like, Am I is this just me thinking this way? Am I bringing something into this that it really isn't there? And we work through this. So with the whole, you know, like divorces, number one, you gotta deal with your own bullshit. You gotta prepare your mind for the ups and downs of the flow, know where you're at in the flow, recognize when there is absolutely nothing else going on, there's no games. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: And you can you can come into this environment of like, This is pretty fucking cool. Yes. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, it's and and relaxing. Yeah, I I mean we we're stress monsters because we do well with stress. So when in doubt, create it. Yeah, when in doubt create chaos because we thrive in chaos. That's not a long term plan for many relationships I've noticed. I've heard in in the debriefings and the check check Eric Schwalm: yeah. We incorpor we create our own stress. Right. Absolutely. Mm mm mm mm. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: rating sessions, you know. Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: especially, you know, it's just We do it to ourselves, Eric Schwalm: That being said ERIK LAWRENCE: but we now we know better. Eric Schwalm: That being said, I will say this and this is something that every I wanna say this to all the SF guys who are getting out recognize, number one, that like you just said, we are stress monsters. That's that can be a good thing or a bad thing, but when you get out, you you like you've lived on the gas, you're way up here, you cannot, cannot, cannot come off that gas immediately and pop down here. 'Cause that I I have buried more dudes who were absolutely legend at this, within two years of getting out of SF, they come off the gas and they hit the brakes and they go, I'm just gonna sit there and do nothing. And they're dead. I'm ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm mm. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: like, no, no, no, no. There's good stress and there's bad stress. You need to get out there and you have to have a plan for your life. You have to have a a long term goal that you're working towards, short term goals, things that you're trying to accomplish Put you're you're not done, okay? Like ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: David Goggins is n I love David Goggins for just this point alone. Is like I became a seal and then I said, okay, and then he goes, What's more than a seal? Okay, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: fine. that hit me like I was like, I became a green beret. That's not my checkpoint. That's not the ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I know. Eric Schwalm: 26th mile in the marathon. What that is is I became a green beret. What is I I tell myself, Eric, what does a Green Beret who is successful at being what what is higher As I get older, what is the next level that I'm going towards? ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: And we've got to continue doing that. And you will thrive. You will absolutely thrive as long as you sit there and don't go, this is it, and now I'm gonna come back down. I made Green Beret and for the rest of my life I'm a Green Beret. No, ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah, no, it's cr criminal. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I I was I I made Green Beret. I'm more than a Green Beret. I'm I'm a graduate. I'm moving on. I'm taking I'm eyes up, not level. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that and you've seen that with guys in their health where they just Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: I'm like, What did you do your whole adult life? And now you're not PTing at all? I'm like, Come on, man. It's just criminal. Yeah. Yeah, that makes no sense. Yeah, yeah. I just Eric Schwalm: Right. You did it for the job. You did it for the job, not yourself. Do it for yourself. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: had a t old teammate on the other day, we had a pod on this and and he's like, No my daughter's not wiping my ass when I'm seventy five or eighty years old. He goes, no, I'm I'm gonna fall over dead on a run, you know, it's not happening. And that's a personal responsibility with not being selfish, going, somebody'll Eric Schwalm: No, right. Right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: take care of me. Well, come Eric Schwalm: No. ERIK LAWRENCE: on, we know better. You know, I don't maybe we preach Eric Schwalm: No. ERIK LAWRENCE: it too much, but individually w we know the standard, you know. And i it didn't, not at all. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Right. Why did that standard go away? Because you got out. What what was it because of them? Is it because is it is it you? Were you the Green Beret? Or was the Green Beret you? Right? It's like, no, I was the Green Beret. I did ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is it? Yeah. Eric Schwalm: all that. I am that good all the time. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I am better than that too. I cannot I I can pass the course and more. You know, the I'm that was the standard, not the right. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to be in the unit to have a unit standard, you know. And I've seen a lot of that and guys just fall apart, you know, and then they're miserable and you're like, Well but you know the formula, you know, so Eric Schwalm: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: why did you do that? Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Was the Green Beret was me. I was not the Green Beret. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I yeah, my level because I was there, because I was I all my physical fitness and my mind was everything, I was capable of being a Green Beret. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I'm I'm even better than I w ever was before. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: Not only could I be a Green Beret, I can take that to a whole nother level. I could scare a basic Green Beret. ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Yeah, but now we have the experience and it's our duty, I think, the leveling up is pushing this stuff down and getting things implemented. You know, and and Eric Schwalm: Right. It's just me. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: I I always I hate to not put out information that I have. People are like, that's unsolicited advice. Yeah, maybe. Whatever. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: Take it or leave it, you know. Say lovey. you don't have to buy the Eric Schwalm: Right? Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: book. But if you do, actually read it. What a concept. Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's like teaching shooting is unsolicited. Yeah. I'm ERIK LAWRENCE: You know, n not draw in the margins. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I'm gonna teach you how to shoot. What is that unsolicited advice too? Because I know how to shoot and I can make you better at shooting? I'm I'm this old, I've ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. I can't go to a range and watch people shoot badly. I will interrupt Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: them and go, For God's sakes, give me five minutes. And they've learned more in five minutes Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: than they've learned their entire life. But you know, it's just like Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: I can't watch a train wreck, you know. Eric Schwalm: Right. I've been through so much of my life. I'd be an idiot if I don't sit there and tell you you're heading towards this. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: You know, I'm I can I've seen the pattern, I know where you're headed, I'm going ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes, correct. Eric Schwalm: to say something. Don't treat it as unsolicited advice. Just like if ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I teach you to shoot or to think or to how to do intelligence. It's the same thing. I'm not I'm not trying to take over your life. I'm just passing something on. You can take it or leave it, but I I can't just not say something and let you I know where you're headed. So I've got to work on my delivery. Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, I've got to work on my delivery. I'm a little, you know, I'm still the berserker, you know, on on the assault team. And sometimes that doesn't work. Yeah. It's like, lighten up, Eric. Yeah. Yeah, I do that sometimes too. Yeah, I I I Eric Schwalm: I I have my moments, yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I'll I'll sit there and I'll all right, head down, here we go. Right. You brought down the thunder, here comes the lightning, brother. ERIK LAWRENCE: had two experiences with two people that hadn't been beaten a while the other day, and I'm like You know, you'd be a lot more polite if you got your ass beat once in a while, you know. And I'm just like I don't want to go to jail today, but it might be an option, you know. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yep. No, no, no. No. I I gotta apply all that serial school training again. No. Not again. ERIK LAWRENCE: Exactly, exactly. Not again. But no, I I I want us to expound upon this, you know, after we've had time to think about this one and what we covered and what we didn't cover. And just Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Okay. ERIK LAWRENCE: I I love your analogy of you know, how you come down off there quicker. You know, and Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: to us that's kind of common sense, but to explain it to people that have never been in that situation is the challenge. Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. Is the challenge. Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: And I'll I'll invent some graphics to do that because I'm a picture guy. Eric Schwalm: Yeah, try to f try to find a way to put it into something that they understand. Like even with shooting, when we talk about shooting recovery, is getting back you know, it's like getting back on that site picture and and sitting there, you know, reassess everything around you and it's like before you go back in again. That that same thing of your your recovery time between pulling that that trigger and and resetting is it's all the same thing with our life experiences as well. You gotta go through that reset phase before you can pull the trigger again. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, and and that's how we maintain a consistent accuracy, you know. And that's what we really need in someone's life. Because if they do great once in a while and then they go to the garage and make a loud noise. Eric Schwalm: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: i it was all for naught. And we've had that. You've had I've had that. It's Eric Schwalm: Yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: like, where did that come from? That that was unnecessary. But you know, Eric Schwalm: Right. Totally. ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah, I don't I don't wanna partake in that anymore. Eric Schwalm: No. No, I've I've way, way too many that have that have done that. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Well what's your one salient point before we close out? I mean in general, you know, I think about the guy, I think about the family, and I think about just Joe Sevillion that this is just way out of their their wheelhouse. But the points can still be translated. Eric Schwalm: Yes, I can. Absolutely. I I I I talked to I want to talk to like the ambulance people, the the fire p the the police officer that comes on that accident. The you know, everything you're you've gotten through tough times before. It may not be as tough as you've gone through you're going through right now, but look back at the most recent or the most significant event that you've experienced before and just remember The pattern. Look at it from a objectively from above. Say, okay, I failed a test in high school or I've something happened here, but you're you're here, you're still here. As long as it isn't, you're not looking at the same problem you're in right now, because I've gone through you know a a very, very significant emotional event in the past couple years. but and if you measure it out, if you sit there and you'll recognize the pattern of you can lay you can be in that event for so long, but it it can You come back. You will it's I'm not saying you like I'm telling you like in a bit in a in a shortchange sort of way, you will recover. You have recovered before. Look at the pattern, recognize where you're at compared to the previous recovery, not the trauma, the recovery period. Find out where you're at, and give yourself the grace to say, I'm on the recovery slope and I'm headed somewhere. What do I need? To continue to move down towards normal based on what I've understood before. And then number two is that that whole boxer mindset, recognize and accept when you are not the most qualified person to understand your current condition. ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Eric Schwalm: you know, look, it took me going to the behavioral health specialist and getting an assessment. This is me, the guy who was hit, the guy with the TBIs, the PTSD and everything, and saying, like nobody's gonna unfortunately, unlike MMA where the doctor sees you in there's an intent. You've got to make that step. And ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. You gotta ask. Eric Schwalm: even if you're good, go have them go tell you, like go tell it, go to the doctor and say, no, you're I've checked you out, you're doing good. Go. But go if if if if there's any question, go to behavioral health, have VA behavioral health on post or whatever, and have them do the an assessment and treat yourself as the most unqualified person about ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes. Eric Schwalm: your current condition. And you may be surprised like I was when you see it holistically, when it's all presented in front of you, when you've answered everything truthfully, you ERIK LAWRENCE: Truthfully. Eric Schwalm: may have that come to Jesus Jesus moment where you're like, Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, and if that's what it takes, but you know, we've we're also a a crew that's not good at asking for help. I was horrible at it and I I finally went to one Eric Schwalm: No. That's the Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: of one of the doctors up in the northeast about something and he goes, Eric, I know you're anti prescription, but what if it helps? I'm like, okay. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: If it yes, if it it tips if it tips the balance in favor of your recover ple I I need to mention this spot. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: because this is the one thing that when you're going to your therapist, okay, I was blessed in both the therapists I went through once down at Fort Campbell and here and where I live in Georgia now, both of my therapists were teammates of the assisting me in a direction that I was going. You cannot ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: it's it's just like working out. If treat your therapist like your your trainer in a gym, okay, they're gonna give you a workout. You you have to go work out. You have to ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: take their their they have to give you ideas that like out like the valley, the water, you know, recognizing where you're at on the you have to go do the work. That the y ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: If I'm teaching you in the gym and trying to get you to be strong, I can give you all the workout plans in the world. If you don't go lift the weight on your own ERIK LAWRENCE: You're right, yeah. Eric Schwalm: when I'm not there, it doesn't matter. All I'm doing is giving you workouts. So with the therapist, okay? Your therapist should be making you stronger. Okay. You ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Eric Schwalm: should be looking to eventually get away, like accept that you're gonna be with them for a while. ERIK LAWRENCE: A while, yep. Eric Schwalm: Actively work with them, but get Go do the work they give you, come back and give them feedback on the work that they give you. It should be a back and forth exchange where they are getting you out. Okay? Don't go if your therapist is one of those therapists that gives you a workout and doesn't check and see if you did the workout, doesn't talk ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: to you about what all they're doing is collect it's just like any muscle person at the gym. They're gonna collect the money from they'll they'll take your payment and keep giving you workouts and you may never get strong. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Because you're not working, both of you should be working towards the goal of you getting out, not in a hurry, ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Eric Schwalm: but to where to where you look at them like the the back and forth between my my therapist and when I eventually left was I feel pretty good. So let's let's see mu each e once a month. Then it was once every three months. And then I just sat there and I just looked at her one day and she goes, Well, what do you think? And I said I said, I think I'm there. I said, ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Eric Schwalm: my my recovery times are short. My ability to see where I'm at and what's going on is present. I can I'm I'm if I and she's told me it's like if you ever think that you're in a problem again and I've learned a recognize problem, I can contact her. And and we can go back and we can reset. It's just like going back to the it's like, hey, you know, I've been lifting three twenty-five and I'd like to get to three fifty-five. So I'm coming back to see you one more time and they're like, great, look, let's look at where you're at, what you're doing, what's working, what's not. And they take you to the next level. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, y you have to participate. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: Yes, you've got to, you've got to do the workouts the therapist gives you. You've got to give them feedback. And again, you and your therapist have got to be of the mindset that you're leaving. Okay? ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, correct. It's not a cash cow for fifty years. Yeah. Eric Schwalm: I'm going to get I'm right, right. I'm going to get to a point where I understand enough about myself, about lifting, about doing all this with I use the weightlifting methodology that I c I don't need my trainer anymore because I'm good. But if I have questions at another point, I can go talk to them and we can work continue to work. I'm getting I'm I'm going to get I am committed, again, always looking up, not looking level, going to get better. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. And and that's the effort. Yeah, we we know better. Correct. Eric Schwalm: I can do this. I am a green beret, you know. I gotta be a green beret in my mentality. Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: A and that hopefully that's contagious too, because some people will pick that Eric Schwalm: god it is, yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: up and go, That's why this works for him. You know, and you can you can be the example, you know. We we always try to be, but you don't have to just be that Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: example at work. You can be that example everywhere, every aspect of your life. Eric Schwalm: Right. Yeah. Everybody Yep. Yep. Go ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, that's a great point. Eric Schwalm: do it. Go do it. You're a Green Beret. I mean, th n not just at that level, but you're you're like you've done great things. Can go do great things in everything. Hit everything just as hard as you hit being a Green Beret. ERIK LAWRENCE: I've seen you you I've seen it too. A lot of the guys have and they've knocked it out of the park. You know, it's just Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: that was a chapter in their life and you have to realize that's not the book. That's just just a chapter, you know. Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah. I mean there's there's some that's knocked it out of the park. And you're like, he could have done Eric Schwalm: Yep. No. That may be the intro. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: that without SF but you know, he Eric Schwalm: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: he applied. Eric Schwalm: Maybe that was the lesson. Okay. This isn't the the actual experience. It like all that training is like these are the all the lessons taking you up. You may be into the experience now. ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Eric Schwalm: Use all that information and stuff and apply it now. It's like hey, you it it ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct, yeah. Don't don't be the live in your high school, you know, touchdown, the the Al Bundy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Eric Schwalm: my God, no. Right. Yeah. Keep going back to the the reunions and mm mm. ERIK LAWRENCE: no, I see that all the time too. But well, Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: I think that was a pretty good, pretty good chit chat for our first one there. I like the points. It's gonna Eric Schwalm: I agree. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: make some good visuals because I'm a picture guy. I want to be able to see what we're Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: what we're doing here. And if anybody can realize Eric Schwalm: Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: that, that's gives them some perspective. You know, and that's all we're trying Eric Schwalm: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: to do is give some perspective. Maybe not what they're looking at because they're too fogged up, you know, either from the stress or the TBI or whatever. I mean, I I did not see Eric Schwalm: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: my own condition because of the condition. And you have to go, Hey, sit down. Yeah, sit down. Come here. We're going to this doctor. No, y y you're Eric Schwalm: Yes. You got hit in the head, brother. You're the worst patient out there. You're the worst person Yep, yep. You had no idea. Yep. ERIK LAWRENCE: always gonna say we're good. I'm good. I'm fine. Yeah, it's bullshit. Total, total bullshit. Eric Schwalm: Yep. Yeah. Yep. I'm still good to fight. Dude, you were knocked out. The guys already left. Yeah, yeah. Aww. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, the guy's already left. He's not here. Okay. Yeah. Well we we we Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time, Eric. Even though I gotta work on spelling your name with a C Eric Schwalm: Absolute pleasure, brother. ERIK LAWRENCE: and not a K, so that's gonna be challenging for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eric Schwalm: I'll work on that. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: but let's think of another subject later down the line and just dig into a single subject, you know, so we can really get into the weeds, okay? Eric Schwalm: Absolutely. Just dig into subject. We'll do. Yes. All right. Okay. Thank ERIK LAWRENCE: Okay. Thank you very much.