Latest / PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast / Buy Low, Sell High - It's a Good Time to Be a Geoscientist

Transcript

Buy Low, Sell High - It's a Good Time to Be a Geoscientist · PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it worked, and why it matters to you.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Christmas.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Mr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Bullice.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna call you Mr.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Bullis this episode.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, you're not.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm right because this is this is an episode to that you deserve to be called Mr.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Bullis in.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you call me that, then I'm gonna call you J.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Ray.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: That I haven't heard that in a long time.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't heard that in a long time.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, Chris, I've I must say I'm gonna brag a little bit here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had uh not one, but two younger people, let's say younger, who were shocked to hear how old I actually was because they thought I was much younger than I am.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, who are we talking about?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like grad students or what?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: 20 somethings, let's say.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: 20 somethings.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I I I I took it at first, it was like, oh, that's very nice.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I look younger than I am.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: But then the way they said, Oh my gosh, I had no idea you were that old made me think, Oh no, that's hilarious.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting old.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't really know how to take that, but you know, uh, I guess I could be proud of that.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned to embrace my age, Jesse.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like I've earned every one of them.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you're old enough to be wise, but not old enough to be crusty yet.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, not that's that's right, not yet.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I ever will be, but maybe, maybe someday.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Chris, um you will definitely be crusty at some point.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Will I?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course you will.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's the genetics, man.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I can avoid it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Delay it as long as possible.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what do you think?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think about this episode?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna do this.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is part one of a series, right?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And a loosely constrained series.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is very loosely constrained.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: But this comes kind of big on it on the heels of a presentation you did, and and you put a lot of time into this, and this was like uh basically if you think about an overall title for the theme, maybe, or the for the series, it's a good time to be a geoscientist, right?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And well, Chris, uh I th you're right, this sort of sort of stemmed from a talk I put together as part of a lecture that I was invited to give.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's bigger than that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's a it's an evolving conversation that you and I have been having that we've summarized a lot from our guests.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we have a lot of guests on here who come on who are excited to be geoscientists.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: They like their field, they like their jobs, but I think it's more than that.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an also an exciting time to be a geologist and a geoscientist.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of what I was kind of trying to convey with the talk.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I just wanted to say, I think it's a lot of that comes from people we've interviewed and conversations you know, you and I have been having, and and kind of the feeling that we're at the vibe we're getting in our field in society over the last couple of years.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, this too is is something that you know, I've been in the in this field for 30 years, and my answer to you know, why why be a geoscientist has certainly changed during that time, right?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I I don't know, uh I didn't have a good answer, you know, for why are you why are you gonna go into this?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um, what are you gonna do with this?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And why is it important?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I did not have I'm ashamed to say this, I didn't have a great answer 30 years ago.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Apart from it's cool, pursue your passions, do something you're passionate about because you'll be good, because you'll work hard at it, you'll be good at that then, and and I mean that's an obvious one.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think like from your generation and before your generation, that's always well, at least in the last several generations of geologists, that has attracted people to our field is hey, this is cool.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: I really like thinking about this.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you like being outside, maybe you don't, but you like thinking about plate tectonics and mountains and water and rivers and landslides and all the stuff that goes into geoscience.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's always, I think, kind of attracted people to the field, and I think it still should.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: But what back to your answer?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you have a better answer now to the question?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: A high school student comes in and says, What can I do with this job?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: What should I get a major in this in in college when I go on?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what do you say now?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I have a much better answer, and that this kind of helped out that process, though.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: You and I going through this and you know, coming up with this, all right, let's break this down into a series.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's make this not just a show, let's not just two shows, but let's let's do three or four episodes on why is it a good time to be a geoscientist?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: That certainly has helped solidify this.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking about this today during my classes.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm teaching, and you know, we're we're talking about volcanoes right now, and you and I, it you're you're closer to to my generation than the students that I have, you know.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I went into geoscience for that reason that you said it was cool.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's exciting stuff to study, it's an easy sell, I think.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and it reminded me because that's what I'm doing right now.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that sell is still certainly there, but there's there are more reasons now that are really valid and relevant reasons to to it's a really good time to be a geo uh geoscientist, you know.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not petroleum, it's not these things that was like this was the early on reason why a lot of people went into to geoscience.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's an it's environmental geoscience, it's uh geologic engineering, it's geochemistry, it's uh finding these rare earth elements and minerals that we so badly need.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, Chris, I I really I I agree with everything you're saying.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is a very I'm I am excited, I'm really excited and frankly honored to be able to be a geology professor at this current moment in history.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm excited for students.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited that the students that uh are are taking Penn State classes or are getting into the field right now.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it's a very, very, very good time to be somebody who's interested in actually in in some ways in the traditional even geology.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would I would even kind of say geology is really newly relevant here and very interesting.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think so we this series that we're gonna have here, there's several kind of parts to this.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if this is the best way we've divide it up, and I just want to say from the outset it's a pitch.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that let's be honest, this is we're cheerleading here.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is a pitch.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: We think it's important, we think it's really interesting, we think it's gonna be a great time in the coming decade or decades to be somebody who's trained in the traditional geoscience skill sets.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna give you a pitch as to why, but we're currently refining this pitch too.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, this is a work in progress.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is not something we're gonna say things that are wrong here.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're also hopefully gonna say some things that are right and end up being proved right.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, this is this is our kind of view of the world at the moment that is evolving, and we're kind of working on it and workshopping this a little bit.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna I think start out by talking just, I don't know, Chris.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is the way I framed the talk.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is a good way to start out.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is kind of like let's set the baseline, like let's set the floor for geoscience needs.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about that a little bit, talk about enrollments, talk about where the industry is at the moment, and then talk about the future change, like what could happen in the future to drive demand up or down for geologists or geoscientists.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do you want to put that graphic up there, Jesse, for the for geoscientists just simply needed at the baseline?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, that sounds good.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let me um so, Chris, here's this is just to really set big baseline levels here.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: The American Geoscience Institute has published this goes back now a couple years, uh, 2018 to 2028.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: They do this every couple years, provide like a forward-looking what's the geoscience workforce going to look like over the next decade or in the next decade.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this hasn't changed much.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, the the employment change that they're projecting for geoscience fields is like 6.2% increase.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's broadly in line with GDP growth projections, like maybe a little bit higher than GDP growth.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a booming industry, but it's not a uh not undergoing a downturn either.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's some interesting projections we'll get to at the end of this, that in this data, there's a deficit, they're projecting a deficit of like 130,000 employees in the US alone in the geosciences field.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And there's differences here uh between different subsets and subfields within the geosciences, but but overall there's an average of about 6.2% growth, change in employment here.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the baseline level.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's there's other data sets that kind of corroborate this that we're not needing less geologists in the future, geoscientists, let's put it that way.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and also, you know, more on this later, but there is we could be facing a peak demand, you know, in the coming future, and then this is where we hope to be proved right, you know, in the next 10 or 15 years.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, we'll see.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: But and and this this graph that you just put up there kind of shows that, Jesse, is that you you know, in the past there have been three peaks, and these are related to to events, you know, starting off with the oil boom and things like this, right?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is P this is an interesting plot.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a compilation of a bunch of different data sets, but it's showing enrollment.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a question for you after I'm gonna just explain briefly this this chart.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: But basically, from 1970 to 2022, there's data on enrollment, number of students enrolled in geoscience degrees.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a curve for the UK, curve for Canada, both Earth Science and Geoscience in Canada, Italy, Australia, and then the US geoscience undergrad enrollment.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And these have peaks and valleys, as you said.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's uh three events mapped out the a peak in like 80 to 82, there's a big peak, and then a big drop-off in the late 80s, and then that kind of slowly creeps back up to the mid-90s, late mid-90s, another peak in enrollment, a short smaller peak in in uh in the US, but bigger in other countries, and then another drop-off in the early 20 aughts, and then another peak around 2010-2015, and then another drop-off.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we are at, I mean, we're we're several years into a pretty steep decline.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And Chris, I just want to mention, I'll say that Penn State, we have a big geoscience program, one of the bigger ones in the country, and I think our enrollment broadly reflects this US trend.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there are certain institutions where it does not reflect this trend, like smaller ones or perhaps you know, more stable ones for various reasons.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: But Penn State's broadly kind of fits this trend in enrollment numbers just with a little bit more variability.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, my question for you is you've been teaching for close to two of these peaks, maybe two two downturns, maybe, right?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sense that?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know you have what, on average, seven students or something over the course of your career go into geology or geoscience in some way, shape, or form in college.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Seven or ten or somewhere in there?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Every year, you mean?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're saying?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, every year, yeah, on average.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: It it fluctuates, but that's a ballpark, yeah, for sure.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So do you think it fluctuates in line with these curves a little bit?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, do you get a s would you have predicted these based on your personal experience or not?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, I wouldn't.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, I can't say that I I I don't know though.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've never thought about it that way.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: There are times when I maybe have one or two kids during that year that go into geoscience, and then there are times where I have like a a ton of them that that seem to go into geoscience.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've never thought about it in this light.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I do a horrible job of keeping track.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where are they once they leave the really bad at that?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: You do a really bad job at that.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't I don't know.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I should I do better at that?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, should I keep track?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I almost wonder if the ship has sailed now, Chris.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: But um you should have done better.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: I would say you should have done better.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I also on the flip side, does it matter?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Would it change what you do today based on that data?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think for you, it probably doesn't matter as much in your day-to-day.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: For for us, like at a geoscience program, if enrollments start to decline, we kind of got to think why what's going on here, how can we fix this?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is we follow a bit more of a business model, I think, than than you do partially.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like if nobody signs up for your class, it's gonna get canceled at some point.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, so that back to this chart.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: We there's these events that are mapped on here, kind of peaks.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: The peaks are mapped out as events, and I'm just gonna flip forward to one more image and then and then we can remove it here.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: But basically, all I've done here is I've drawn the price for a barrel of oil over time onto this, and you can map this many different data sets you can map onto this.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, the current thinking, at least over the last couple decades, is that undergrad enrollment increases after a peak in investment in extractive industries.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when oil companies start to explore more and spending more on exploration, when mineral companies start to explore more, then undergrads kind of follow that trend, but are like delayed by a couple years, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this kind of boom bust cycle to it, and then there's a boom bust cycle to the undergrad enrollments that trail, they're lagging importantly.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So this isn't the per a perfect correlation.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: There are better metrics that kind of map out, you know, total investment dollars or something that in exploration.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I have a couple thoughts about this before we move on.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: One is when you look at the data and you draw a line, a best fit line across this, you can see that over time the demand for geoscience majors is relatively stable.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's there, it's not on a decline, it maybe is arguably on a slight incline, actually, which makes sense.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, I see what you mean.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like total over like if you ignore the peaks and you just kind of go long duration.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And just take the average, it's stable.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's that thought.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thought is, you know, like if you and I are right, and you know, we're we're almost always right, Jesse, right?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so just ask us.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if we're right, we have another peak coming, and it's a big peak.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to like let's just ask that to our listeners like what would that peak be?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: What would drive that peak in the direction that we think it's gonna go?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're totally right, Chris.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a like a long-winded conversation for later parts of this series, probably.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a peak, like, I don't think there's much debate that there's gonna be there's gonna be a peak.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's an event number four coming.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just how big is it gonna be?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think is kind of what people think.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and many of the traditional viewpoints or the the perception, the societal perception, is that geology equals oil and gas, or academia, maybe for a career path.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's definitely not true, but that's part of the perception, part of the problem that's that's part of the problem.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, right.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you believe that to be true, then you're looking at the world and you're saying, well, academia is not growing, there's not more professors around, and there's perhaps even gonna be less in the future.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank goodness.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank thank goodness for that.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's only you can really only tolerate one or two around, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have enough in my life, okay?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're maxed out preforcers in your orbit.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you are.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I I I agree.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, hold on.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have I gotta tell you something, okay?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um today, this is off topic.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get back on a second, but I was talking about the age of the solar system, and I I got into the weeds on geochronology and oh, and you got fired up in the vein, your forehead's coming out, and it grits his chest into it.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was so good though, and it was fun, and the kids were into it.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that and then at the end, I had this kid, because I always end with, all right, do you have any deep thoughts?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do any deep you know, questions or deep thoughts on topic, off topic, and I love off topic?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And this kid sits right in the front.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: He's a senior, and he's like, So, Ms.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Boys, who's this Jesse guy?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Who's this Jesse guy?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good question.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was great.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm like, oh yeah, I'm like, Well, I I had I can't tell you, I can't tell you the response.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I just that was good.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've like, I told the story of how you were one of my students, right?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and I told the story of how you uh you were the reason why I went out to Mount St.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Helens in 2004 because of what you said to me, you know, when you were independent studying for me and you, you know, you yeah.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, um I introduced you to the class that way then.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I guess I I don't know.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I forget what I say sometimes to one class and not to another.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So apparently with wherever this clap this kid has been sitting, he he's not he's not heard me mention you, you know, before.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: So he's just been tuned out a bunch, but uh so all right, hold on.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta one other thing, Jesse, is back to this graph.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're I had two thoughts, right?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: One is that the demand for geoscientists is stable.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: The other thought on this is that you know, the good time to to get into this is Duran Valley.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you're heading, you know, heading to the peak.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is exactly where I think this is like to me, this is the whole point of of really talking about this as a singular episode.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do we care about the baseline demand?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we care about the baseline demand because it's pretty constant, it's gonna be there, as you're just pointing out, and as these uh articles, the American Geoscience Institute articles, the demand is is stable, it's gonna be there, but the supply is dropping.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it just brings to mind, like, you know, I don't know, a Warren Buffett quote.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to buy stocks when everybody else is buying stocks, you want to buy them when everybody's selling them.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's the time to go buy stuff, and so right now everybody's selling a geology degree or geoscience degree.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: When's a good time to be a geoscientist?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's actually, as you said, it's in the trough.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: You want to get trained in the trough because there's another peak coming and there's gonna be less of you around.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: That means you're worth more and your market value goes up.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just look at this and I think, man, go into the geosciences.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody else is being trained in that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna be able to stand out, you're gonna be able to set yourself apart, you're gonna be in demand in the future because there is this event forecoming, and as we'll talk about in later episodes, we think it's gonna be a big one.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but there's something else at play that we don't have the data to to support this.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's just this is anecdotal, but the peak is gonna be a big one, we think.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and also geoscience programs are on the decline in terms of enrollment.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to talk a little bit about why that is, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, this is it's our podcast, and we can have our opinions, and that's really what this is.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like and we've actually talked about this before that maybe we're losing really good geoscience candidates to environmental programs, you know.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, environmental science degrees, that's an up-and-coming thing.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I I dug around a little bit getting ready for this.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I don't have the data to show this, but there's chatter about environmental degrees.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: There are more jobs that are asking for environmental science degrees than there are jobs asking for a geoscience degree, straight up geology.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this is just like looking at LinkedIn or whatever, jobmonster.com, wherever jobs are listed and getting that okay.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: However, the vast majority of the geoscience degrees were asking for a geologist, okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Many of the environmental science jobs were asking for a geoscientist.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think about that, the the my takea on that was that you're probably in a more demand with a geoscience degree.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that's anecdotal.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have data to to throw up on the screen or anything like that, but that's what I came across.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's all these feedback loops, let's put it that way, in these degree systems.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do we name the degree at Penn State, right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: That controls in some way, shape, or form, or at least influences what incoming graduates or incoming students what they think is a valuable degree.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Then our graduates from that degree go out and eventually work in companies and write job ads, and then they list the names of things that they're familiar with.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so there's all these like feedbacks, and and it kind of gets into there's a lot of politics involved in university naming schemes.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: What a department's name is called, for instance, what courses are called, what the title of the course is.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of politics involved in that because right now a lot of the universities want to, a lot of parts, not just universities, but a lot of different branches within one university are competing with each other for words like sustainability or words like environmental science or words like earth science.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And whole that's a really that's a really good point, Jesse.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but no, go for it.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's one of the things that maybe geoscience has a bad name for is you know that that we were we were drilling, you know, we were yeah, that's right in the context.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that is, I think, is something that we're still battling today.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: This perception that geology equals extractive and mining and you know and and and drilling and fracking and that equals bad.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like that perception is definitely there.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's completely unfair.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's going to get completely turned on its head in the next decade.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because, as we'll talk about in in later episodes as part of this series, there's a lot of reasons where geology is kind of the future.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Geoscience is kind of the future, and actually geology specifically.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, can we just say it?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let me know.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, let me let me touch on that.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I want to kind of come back to your question a minute.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that okay?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'll I'll allow it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Judge's ruling, it's allowed.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Allowed.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Look at our moderator.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Producer Watson, what do you think?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um the uh now I've forgotten my question.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Jeez, Chris.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm sorry.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, Jesse.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you what is your what is your take?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what is your you just renamed your course to a science?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just had a discussion about it today.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and you had um remind me, you had a counselor who was asking you what it was because students or parents were questioning what the course was and whether it had changed or not or anything.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got a yeah, uh one of the counselors that is in charge of scheduling students into the next year's classes asked me about it.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was just a question from a student like, is this a new class or what's going on with this, right?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: I see.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um the way our school system is structured is we have trimesters, and so I teach astronomy first and third trimester, and I teach geology or geoscience now, second and third trimester.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I just got my astronomy students back, okay, and and many of them I had last year, and and actually this is an up year in terms of the number of students that are going into geoscience in college that already know this.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and so these are students that were asking me about it today, like Mr.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Boyce, what's what's behind the name change?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh because I've already talked about it with my geology or my geoscience students, and and uh I said, What do you think about it?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was again a mixed bag, you know.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of kids are like, Well, it sounds harder to me, you know, and so interesting.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then another uh a couple other kids are like, nah, I think it it just it's more inclusive and you know, that kind of thing, a bigger umbrella, that that kind of idea, which is what I was after with it, you know.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally, yeah.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you uh my other qu my my next question, which is perhaps a deeper one, is you are way more familiar with this kind of stuff than I am.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you know about the certification process and the fact that the geosciences or earth sciences might struggle with this name branding thing, in particular because there's no requirement at the high school level for a course in this field?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how how do you know?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've I've heard from people about um geography departments and geology departments, that the naming, you know, what a department when a department, let's say, I I don't know if this is happening at Penn State, but let's say a formerly called geology department wants to go through a rebranding name, just a name change exercise.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they maybe they want to come to an Earth and Planetary Science Department, or they want to become geoscience department or Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Department or something.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: That name, sometimes within the the same university, somebody else, some other department will want to claim that name.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: They'll want to be the atmospheric science department, or there's a already a climate department, so you can't have atmospheric science, or you're merging things and you kind of are navigating these things, but it it also relates to the sort of federal and state and local categorization of the fields, like whether it's a STEM field, whether it's a non-STEM field, whether it's a uh a secondary or a post-secondary, or whether it's a middle school class in your state.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you know about Michigan's certification?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you what would you predict if geoscience became a required high school class for enrollments in high in college?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I so I can't really speak to that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't see that happening, and here's why.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see the geosciences or the earth sciences, if you will, the earth and space sciences becoming a requirement, at least where where I am.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is is because uh we don't have teachers for that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: There aren't we don't have trained people that you know do that.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's my thought, Jesse, is that if a college, a university wanted to build a program, then uh they need to play a part in the school the local school districts.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And making sure that they have pe they they have people that that went through their program are trained and ready to start a a geoscience program at a local high school.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like I you talk about building a program then.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's it's um I think it's an easy sell.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna get fed people from these local schools then because all you need to do, I think, really is is there's a lot of interest in geoscience from students.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's still cool.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the stuff that we talk about is still awesome, it's just utterly powerful and beautiful and and all of that.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And all you got to do is just show young minds this, and and it's it's just easy.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's right.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's right, and I think it's cool, it's cool.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's number one.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And your generation, my generation, probably the generation before you got into it because it's cool.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: We had an interview with Lee Cump a while back.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he talked exactly about this stuff, like he got into it because it's cool.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people got into it because it was cool.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's still cool, but it's also really important, and I think it's only gonna get more important in the future, and I think it's that's why it's just such an exciting time to be able to do something that's cool and important.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And Richard Alley, who you know we're we're scheduling an interview with, he's got this great talk that's the title is Get Rich and Save the World.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like that's an amazing pitch, right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, come on, that's awesome.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of that style of excitement around our field right now.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So one other thought, Jesse, is that at least in our state, and I'm I'm in Michigan, the degrees for educators for teachers if you're going into science now, is going it's integrated science.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you're not getting a biology teacher anymore, you're not getting a chemistry or physics or or geoscience teacher, you're getting really a jack of all trades, you're getting an integrated science teacher now.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that'll be interesting to see how that all plays out.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think then, to me, at least my thought process isn't, but I'm old school, I don't know, maybe I'm out of line and you can tell me.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: But with that, uh, you're certainly out of line.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know if on this topic you are or not.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: But do you get the passion though that for us for a subject?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, so hold on, back up a minute for me, Chris.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: The integrated, so so you're saying that students, uh kids, grad uh adults who are graduating college with a high school science teaching degree, have an integrated science degree, and therefore could teach any of the sciences at any high school level?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, or yeah, or at least not maybe not any of the sciences, but they can teach multiple sciences, right?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you don't come out as a biology teacher or you don't come out with a biology degree, right?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: You don't come out with an earth science degree as a part of your teaching credential.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: You come out with this integrated science thing.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, we're hiring somebody right now that is the last person to come out of Grand Valley with an earth science degree.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: He will be the last one.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: With an earth science teaching degree.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so how does that I mean because this is represent this is showing exactly the feedback loop, right?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: If the state changes the rules, then all of a sudden the earth science programs become irrelevant in that state, especially if it's a university that's serving a local population.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: But then also again, if the if the university like Lee Cump also again talked about how they had Earth System Science program being built up, and then the local high schools started to adopt it because they got the curriculum and they started to do this stuff, and so there's like a positive feedback loop, too, that universities can control.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very it's a very complicated system here.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're dealing with humans and we're dealing with politics, and it's very complicated.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Also, the the demand from schools where where I am is that if we hire an integrated science teacher, then we have a ton of flexibility.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: We can plug this teacher into any kind of class we want, so it gives them flexibility.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it makes me otherwise don't want to it makes sense to do that, but I think you're you're right.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: It it um when you're passionate, it it bleeds through.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're doing the extra stuff, when you're going above and beyond in your discipline, you add above and beyond, you add extra value to the students, right?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you're teaching the summer science class and going out and you're going above and beyond and geology, you're adding that extra value into the classroom.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I again I was talking about this today because uh doing this podcast and and being an old guy and and I'm constantly learning about geoscience myself.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're young.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Young's pretty kicking over there.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: So my job right now, I'm just trying to curate because I have so much.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just teaching an intro-level college geology class, right?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I have way more that I want to communicate to them that I'm able to communicate.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just saying right now, I am doing a horrible job of curating.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I added like to to a presentation I was doing today, I added like four video clips and and six pictures, and I didn't take anything away.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I just kept it in because it's loading it up.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, keep up, kids.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're diving into the weeds here.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Learn about them when the solar system formed.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm woefully behind, I'll tell you that.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's good though.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good, that's a good thing.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And back to this, you know, back to this curve.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it's a very exciting time, and especially if you're passionate about it, right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't, you know, I I don't know that it's a field to go into if you're not excited about it.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are excited about it, there's tons of opportunities.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope your students are getting that, uh, you know, are taking that away from them.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know it's hard when you're especially when you're well, certainly in high school.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I didn't have the fogkiest clue what's going on at ever in high school, and even in college, like unless you really kind of need direction, you need exposure to people who are out there doing it to just see, oh, that's possible.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that thing is possible.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now, you know, we've interacted, I've interacted with a bunch of alumni from Penn State.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: You get to see the wide range of possibilities that a geoscience degree gives you.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if you're interested and you learn and you're quick and you go deep, but also keep your head above ground and look around you and pay attention to how the world's changing.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just think I've go let's go back to this like you want to buy low, sell high.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And right now, geoscience degrees are at a low.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a good time to start buying them, I'd say.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think I think a good way to end this, Jesse, is to just say that all right.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be you went into geoscience because it was cool and then you figured it out from there.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now you go into it because you can make you can make a really good living doing good things and making an impact.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And their peak is coming.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so you said this, and this is a prelude.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually what we're gonna spend the bulk of our time talking about in the next installment of the series is that our problems on earth are surficial problems.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: The climate, we have water issues, we need you know, these rare earth elements and minerals.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: But the solutions to those problems are deep inside the earth.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's a that's a profound thing to think about, and and that's not going away.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have people that are experts in deep earth.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: In many ways, uh the third dimension, I mean, it it's like the final frontier, the next frontier at least.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's inside the earth?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: What's down three kilometers deep?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do we know?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Are there deposits down there that we can extract with all of the amazing technology that we have for probing the subsurface?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that requires geologists.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're down in rocks, you're down in metamorphic great metamorphic conditions.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited about this, the future here, because you need people who know rocks, who know structure, who know tectonics, who know all these things.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll get into that more.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: But at baseline, even if we're wrong, even if event four is relatively small, we're still gonna need more, and we're still it's still an okay time to buy because geoscientists, the degrees, there's not many people getting degrees.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to end Chris with a couple quotes here from a couple articles.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put links in the show notes.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: But in Australia, the mining industry is expecting a huge shortage by 2027, quote unquote, the worst squills crisis in a generation.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: The AGI, American Geoscience Institute, by 2029 predicted approximately 130,000 full-time equivalent geoscientist deficit.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: So those are jobs that will not be replaced by the current projections of trained geoscientists.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's a pretty big demand.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that means if you come out trained, competent, gung ho, you know what you're doing, you're willing to work hard, you're gonna be valuable.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And when there's a big deficit like that, salaries go up and it gets competitive for good people.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a really exciting time to be in that just that baseline, even if event four is not that big, because we're undergoing this kind of crisis in enrollment numbers.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Agreed, Dr.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Rymank.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed, agreed, boys.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll keep on keeping on on this, and uh you keep fighting the good fight.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get some more geologists out there looking at rocks.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when are you and I gonna go look at rocks together again?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I was just uh uh a couple days ago.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody, oh, the the one of the new teachers was asking me about you know all my stuff, and he's like, Man, I'd really love to go on a trip with you and and go collect it.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Well, you know, that's uh that's a pretty high bar that you gotta make before you're invited on one of those drips.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Get in line, buddy.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Get in line.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty good.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was actually just talking to a I was likewise talking to a colleague, and we were talking about research projects.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Oh, we should just go collect some rocks somewhere.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Oh, yeah, add it to the list of people who I need to go look at rocks with.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a long list right now, man.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you got all right.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta come to Pennsylvania.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Come to Pennsylvania on one of your long weekends or something.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Come hang out with us, we'll go bombing around, look at some Pennsylvania geology.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be fun.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was just outside yesterday.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I looked down at one of these Pohoyhoy bombs that I collected, and I'm I just looked at it and I'm like, I love you.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I touched it, and I yeah, I shared that with my students, and they think this guy's absolutely nuts.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he actually does talk to rocks.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just completely crazy.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: So good, man.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey, that's a wrap.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can find all of this podcast content and more on our Camp Geo Mobile app with some images.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: The images we talked about today will be available there.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Our Camp Geo Mobile app, first link in your show notes, visual podcast series on the Grand Tetons, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone National Park, and a whole bunch of other stuff.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow us on all the social medias at Planet Geocast.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Give us a like, subscribe, and leave us a comment if you're on Spotify or YouTube.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh leave us a comment, give us a like, subscribe, and a follow.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.