Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #130 Jason Flom with Dr. Yusef Salaam in Times of COVID

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#130 Jason Flom with Dr. Yusef Salaam in Times of COVID · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: Welcome back to our mini series Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
0:06
Speaker 1: In the time of COVID. You know, COVID nineteen has
0:10
Speaker 1: wrecked havoc across the globe. Countless lives have already been
0:14
Speaker 1: lost this unprecedented worldwide economic devastation, and the Internet is
0:18
Speaker 1: full of misinformation that has so many people in disagreement
0:22
Speaker 1: about what is real and what's the best path back
0:25
Speaker 1: to normalcy and why does so many plans seem to
0:28
Speaker 1: involve callously risking or even losing so many more lives.
0:33
Speaker 1: All of this while we're living with the restricted movement, isolation,
0:38
Speaker 1: and economic anxiety, to say the least, with so many
0:42
Speaker 1: ethical and philosophical questions looming in the zeitgeist, I can't
0:45
Speaker 1: think of a better member of our wrongfully convicted community
0:48
Speaker 1: to guide us through this tough time. So this week
0:52
Speaker 1: we'll talk to a man along with four other young
0:54
Speaker 1: teenage boys, which vilified and demonized in the media. Donald
0:59
Speaker 1: Trump infamously and wrongly took out full page ads in
1:04
Speaker 1: the newspaper back then to call for the reinstatement of
1:06
Speaker 1: the death penalty just so these kids could be executed
1:09
Speaker 1: for a crime they didn't commit. They were barely teenagers
1:13
Speaker 1: when they were lied to by authorities and pitted against
1:17
Speaker 1: each other to give false confessions, and ultimately they were
1:21
Speaker 1: sentenced to many long years behind bars, only to have
1:25
Speaker 1: about a decade later, the man who committed the horrific
1:28
Speaker 1: crime at the center of the media law enforcements circus,
1:31
Speaker 1: Matthias Reyis confess, thereby clearing the names once and for
1:36
Speaker 1: all of the Central Park five, now known as the
1:40
Speaker 1: Exonerated Five. Now, he tells us about how community living
1:45
Speaker 1: in his mind, doing things that add value to his
1:48
Speaker 1: life and the life of others, Realizing his purpose through
1:51
Speaker 1: the pain, and his underlying faith were and are the
1:55
Speaker 1: keys to his survival. You can hear his story of
2:00
Speaker 1: triumph over tragedy in episode eight of season six, as
2:04
Speaker 1: well as in the interview with one of his co defendants,
2:06
Speaker 1: Raymond Santana, in the very first episode of season one
2:10
Speaker 1: of this podcast. His story is told in the Netflix
2:14
Speaker 1: documentary series When They See Us, and he's the author
2:16
Speaker 1: of Words of a Man as well as being a
2:18
Speaker 1: prolific public speaker. I'm very proud to call him my friend.
2:22
Speaker 1: Doctor Yusuf Salaam. I'm coping in the time of COVID.
2:33
Speaker 1: Today we have a doctor in the house, convicted man
2:37
Speaker 1: named doctor Yusuf Salam, And well, welcome back.
2:41
Speaker 2: Oh, it is absolutely a pleasure. Thank you for having
2:44
Speaker 2: me again.
2:44
Speaker 1: Well, it's been a whirlwind since we last spoke, you know,
2:48
Speaker 1: aside from the world going completely haywire and this, you know,
2:54
Speaker 1: coronavirus taking over the news and our consciousness and how
2:58
Speaker 1: are you and your family doing right now?
3:00
Speaker 2: Everybody's actually okay. So we're in different places in the country,
3:04
Speaker 2: of course, some in the south, some in the West coast,
3:08
Speaker 2: a lot in New York where the epicenter is. Hopefully
3:11
Speaker 2: things are beginning to subside a bit. I've definitely lost
3:16
Speaker 2: some people that I know. It's a very scary time
3:19
Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, but we just got to hold on
3:21
Speaker 2: to the faith that we have so that we know
3:24
Speaker 2: that we won't leave here until our mission is complete.
3:28
Speaker 2: And I think that that's the most important thing.
3:30
Speaker 1: And speaking of your mission, since you appeared on the show,
3:33
Speaker 1: of course, the incredible documentary about the Central Park five
3:38
Speaker 1: When They See Us was released to great critical acclaim
3:41
Speaker 1: as well as to I think a wonderful response from
3:45
Speaker 1: the audience. So how has that changed your life? If
3:49
Speaker 1: it has.
3:50
Speaker 2: You know, it's been a dramatic upshift in the attention
3:54
Speaker 2: that we have and also the platform that we have
3:58
Speaker 2: in the world in terms of global recognition, and people
4:01
Speaker 2: always reach out to us for support. It's been great
4:05
Speaker 2: to find purpose through the pain. Since the movie has
4:09
Speaker 2: been made. You look at our social media, for one,
4:12
Speaker 2: we went from probably under ten thousand followers all of
4:18
Speaker 2: us to over three hundred thousand followers for most of us.
4:21
Speaker 2: And of course you look at Corey Wise's following and
4:24
Speaker 2: he's over five hundred thousand people. It's tremendous. That reach
4:28
Speaker 2: is great and it's a blessing for us, of course,
4:31
Speaker 2: because we do have something to say. We do have
4:33
Speaker 2: something to share, you know, especially when it comes to
4:36
Speaker 2: you know, human rights as it relates to prisoners, and
4:41
Speaker 2: you know, especially now in the age of COVID nineteen
4:44
Speaker 2: as it relates to prisoners as well.
4:47
Speaker 1: And have you in touch with the other guys and
4:49
Speaker 1: how are they holding up during this crisis.
4:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been in touch. Everybody's holding up as best
4:54
Speaker 2: they can. I know Raymond's fiance's father have went through
4:59
Speaker 2: about of COVID nineteen came out on the other end
5:02
Speaker 2: and that's always a great thing to have survived.
5:06
Speaker 1: You know.
5:06
Speaker 2: Just a side note, Raymond's newfound love and life is encouraging.
5:12
Speaker 2: You Just look at the peace and happiness in his face.
5:14
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I see him on Instagram and he looks
5:17
Speaker 1: like he's on top of the world. You know, he's
5:19
Speaker 1: got that. It looks like he's in love and that
5:21
Speaker 1: makes me.
5:22
Speaker 2: Very happy, you know, yes, indeed.
5:24
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about the current situation because
5:27
Speaker 1: people are experiencing this crisis in different ways. The people
5:32
Speaker 1: who are sheltering at home, who are quarantining, some have
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Speaker 1: a large family, some are all alone. Some are in
5:39
Speaker 1: very small apartments or houses. They're not used to this.
5:44
Speaker 1: It's very frustrating for them. But you've been through hell,
5:48
Speaker 1: like you've literally been to hell as a young teenage
5:51
Speaker 1: recently child. You were wrongfully convicted and thrust into an
5:55
Speaker 1: environment that was cramped, dirty, hostile, noisy, dangerous, violent, But
6:03
Speaker 1: somehow or other, you persevered. And I believe that there
6:06
Speaker 1: are lessons that you can share with us. I'm hoping
6:09
Speaker 1: that can help everyone, including me, to you know, work
6:14
Speaker 1: through this, you know, indefinite period of time that we're
6:17
Speaker 1: all stuck in together. And you know, and come out better.
6:21
Speaker 2: I definitely can appreciate that. You Know, what I did
6:25
Speaker 2: to maintain my sanity was I began to live in
6:31
Speaker 2: my mind more than in what was going on around me,
6:36
Speaker 2: and this allowed my mind to remain free as opposed
6:39
Speaker 2: to me being completely in bondage. There was a lot
6:43
Speaker 2: of meditation that I was involved in. There was a
6:45
Speaker 2: lot of planning on paper, There was a lot of visualizing.
6:48
Speaker 2: You know. One of the things that we have to
6:51
Speaker 2: all come to grips with is that once we come
6:54
Speaker 2: out of this, it is going to be a brand
6:56
Speaker 2: new world. It's not that we were the only ones
6:59
Speaker 2: that had experience this, right, This is a global phenomenon.
7:04
Speaker 2: And so as a result of that, I think it's
7:06
Speaker 2: important that we look at things like how do we
7:09
Speaker 2: keep our minds mentally exercised? And I think that that's
7:13
Speaker 2: by reading books, of course, I think that's by listening
7:16
Speaker 2: to audible and things of that nature. Don't just pass
7:20
Speaker 2: the time doing nothing. You know, I was thinking about
7:24
Speaker 2: all of the essential workers and essential places that they
7:27
Speaker 2: kept saying we're open, and of course we had the
7:29
Speaker 2: liquor stores and you know, for those people that partake
7:33
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily down on them or saying anything bad
7:36
Speaker 2: about them, but we can't. Just as I would say,
7:39
Speaker 2: when I first won my lawsuit, they ran up to
7:41
Speaker 2: me and said, hey, what are you going to do now?
7:43
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'm not going to be sitting
7:44
Speaker 2: on a beach sipping my ties. This is now allowing
7:47
Speaker 2: me to jump fully into the fight to be a
7:50
Speaker 2: full participant in the freedom, justice, and the humanity of
7:53
Speaker 2: us as a people. And a lot of that happens
7:57
Speaker 2: in your mind. It happens as you plan your work.
7:59
Speaker 2: You realize that you are born on purpose, and you
8:02
Speaker 2: have value, and you have something to give. And we
8:07
Speaker 2: just have to take that faith and begin to massage
8:10
Speaker 2: it into our every day. Whether that means that we're
8:12
Speaker 2: going to just start exercising, if that just means one
8:15
Speaker 2: set up in a day we are better than we
8:18
Speaker 2: were yesterday, because that's how it is. That's how we
8:20
Speaker 2: have to put one front in the front of the other.
8:22
Speaker 2: We have to live in our future, because if I
8:25
Speaker 2: didn't live in my future, I could have never become
8:26
Speaker 2: the person that I was to become. I could have
8:29
Speaker 2: never had that hope that one day I'll be out
8:31
Speaker 2: of here and I'll be a free person, and the
8:33
Speaker 2: truth is going to come out, and I'll be able
8:36
Speaker 2: to utilize my story to transform the world.
8:41
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to understand how you went from a
8:44
Speaker 1: kid with hopes and dreams, going to the park, playing ball,
8:48
Speaker 1: doing whatever it is that kids do, and one day,
8:51
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're one of the most hated people.
8:55
Speaker 1: And then moreover, you end up in this prison cell.
8:59
Speaker 1: Everything overnight changed for you and you had to really
9:03
Speaker 1: become a man overnight in a situation no child should
9:07
Speaker 1: ever find himself in. And you talk about meditation and
9:10
Speaker 1: books and things like that, but let's go back to
9:12
Speaker 1: the first day you're in this cell. How did you
9:16
Speaker 1: find that inner strength, that extra gear that allowed you
9:20
Speaker 1: to become a meditator that allowed you to read and
9:23
Speaker 1: amidst all the chaos and the noise and and things
9:26
Speaker 1: like that.
9:27
Speaker 2: Well, I got to tell you, it wasn't necessarily just me.
9:30
Speaker 2: It was definitely a community. It was that that community
9:33
Speaker 2: that raises the child. Those people that I had in
9:35
Speaker 2: my circle that would write me and encourage me. You know,
9:38
Speaker 2: it was those letters from my grandmother that would be
9:40
Speaker 2: addressed to this person named Master use of salaam. My
9:44
Speaker 2: grandmother was trying to supercharge me. She was trying to
9:48
Speaker 2: get me to think differently. She was telling me, by
9:51
Speaker 2: me reading these words master use of Salam, that I'm
9:54
Speaker 2: a master of my fate. You know. People telling me
9:57
Speaker 2: to be still and listen. People telling me to utilize
10:02
Speaker 2: this time to try to find out the why, because
10:05
Speaker 2: once you find the why, you can live anyhow, as
10:08
Speaker 2: Niittsche says. And I think part of that philosophical reality
10:12
Speaker 2: began to take shape when I was asked a question
10:15
Speaker 2: early on in my prison bit six months in. The
10:18
Speaker 2: officer walks up to me after he's been observing me
10:21
Speaker 2: for all this time, and he had one question for me.
10:23
Speaker 2: His question was who are you? And I'm thinking that
10:27
Speaker 2: I understand what this question means, and I say, I'm
10:29
Speaker 2: used of salam, one of the guys that they accused
10:31
Speaker 2: of raping the Central Park jogger. But I didn't do it.
10:35
Speaker 2: And I realized from his response that I had answered
10:38
Speaker 2: him incorrectly, because he said who are you? And he said, no,
10:42
Speaker 2: I know that. He said, I've been watching you. You're
10:45
Speaker 2: not supposed to be here. Why are you here? Who
10:50
Speaker 2: are you? And it was like a jump start. It
10:54
Speaker 2: was like a matrix, a neo Morpheus moment where I'm like,
10:58
Speaker 2: hold on, like what I like? I know I'm not
11:01
Speaker 2: guilty of this crime? So why am I here? What
11:05
Speaker 2: is it that I'm supposed to go through? What is
11:09
Speaker 2: it that I'm supposed to grow through? So when I
11:12
Speaker 2: come out on the other end, I'll come out of
11:15
Speaker 2: person better, stronger for all that I had gone through.
11:21
Speaker 2: And so first day in prison, of course, was fight.
11:25
Speaker 2: How do you fight? And so I'm thinking, man, I'm
11:28
Speaker 2: hearing the words, I'm hearing people yelling out, I'm hearing
11:30
Speaker 2: people telling us that they're gonna kill us. And I
11:32
Speaker 2: start shadow boxing. And imagine I was growing up and
11:37
Speaker 2: my mother sent me and my sister and brother to
11:40
Speaker 2: learn martial arts. There were two top instructors in New
11:43
Speaker 2: York City at the time. One was a gentleman named
11:46
Speaker 2: Master Little John Davis. The other one was doctor Moses Powell.
11:50
Speaker 2: I happened to be trained by Massive Little John Davis.
11:54
Speaker 2: And the way that they trained us, it was rigorous.
11:56
Speaker 2: It wasn't you know, Okay, we're gonna cut the board
11:58
Speaker 2: and you're gonna punch the board and be surprised that
12:01
Speaker 2: you broke the board because we pre cut it. Now
12:04
Speaker 2: we had to punch boards that had no cuts in it,
12:08
Speaker 2: and it hurt our hands. We had to do push
12:10
Speaker 2: ups on the ground, We had to spar with people
12:12
Speaker 2: who were older than us and bigger than us. And
12:15
Speaker 2: it wasn't something that I realized until I got to
12:18
Speaker 2: prison that they were training us for real life. They
12:21
Speaker 2: were training us to survive. They were training us to
12:24
Speaker 2: be our ancestors' wildest dreams, to not succumb to the pressures.
12:29
Speaker 2: It's a common known fact in the black and brown communities,
12:32
Speaker 2: but people say, oh, yeah, we're going to be DEADO
12:34
Speaker 2: in jail before we reached the age of twenty one,
12:36
Speaker 2: and those of us who became known as the Exonerated
12:39
Speaker 2: five did not escape that. And the great thing about
12:43
Speaker 2: it is that we were able to take these limits
12:45
Speaker 2: that life gave us and make some lemonade out of it.
12:57
Speaker 1: Are there any particular books that have held help you,
13:00
Speaker 1: either while you're in prison or since you've been out,
13:03
Speaker 1: or even now that you're experiencing a very different type
13:07
Speaker 1: of lockdown that you could share with us that you
13:10
Speaker 1: think might be help with other people.
13:12
Speaker 2: Man, it's crazy because of course, we are a few
13:16
Speaker 2: days into Ramadan, and I'm a Muslim, I'm a practice
13:19
Speaker 2: in Muslim and I'm fasting. And what gets me all
13:25
Speaker 2: the time around this time of the year is that
13:29
Speaker 2: we have to reorient ourselves to our scripture, which is
13:33
Speaker 2: the Koran. And I'm saying that because people of faith,
13:39
Speaker 2: even if they're not Muslims, can reorient themselves to their scripture,
13:43
Speaker 2: the Torah of the Bible, any spiritual book that allows
13:49
Speaker 2: them to reconnect with the Creator. My grounding force has
13:55
Speaker 2: always been books of scripture. I've read the Bible of
14:00
Speaker 2: the Koran, and I found tremendous value in that, and
14:04
Speaker 2: I read other things besides that. I've read a lot
14:08
Speaker 2: of books about the Black experience, and one of one
14:11
Speaker 2: of the things I've found is that there's a shift
14:13
Speaker 2: that happens when you understand the black experience but couple
14:17
Speaker 2: it with humanity. Then you don't get stuck in a
14:21
Speaker 2: way that is detrimental because all of us are human beings.
14:25
Speaker 2: Once you start going into a one sided reality, it
14:30
Speaker 2: begins to become problematic and challenging because we live on
14:33
Speaker 2: this planet with the rest of us, you know. I
14:37
Speaker 2: try to read books that make sense. You know. Of course,
14:40
Speaker 2: The People's History by Howard Zen is an important book.
14:45
Speaker 2: The Destructure of the Black Civilization A Chancellor Williams is
14:49
Speaker 2: another important book. But it all goes back to reading.
14:54
Speaker 2: We shouldn't consume our time with just doing stuff that
14:58
Speaker 2: doesn't add value to ourselves.
15:02
Speaker 1: You have certainly become a I think, a really incredible
15:05
Speaker 1: example of what is possible and how to overcome, uh,
15:11
Speaker 1: you know, the worst that life can throw at you.
15:14
Speaker 1: It was so impactful for me to hear what you're
15:16
Speaker 1: talking about, the guard saying who are you? I learned
15:20
Speaker 1: from Deepak Choprah to ask myself the same question. And
15:24
Speaker 1: I learned that, you know, when we normally think of that,
15:26
Speaker 1: who are you? I'm a record executive, I'm a podcast host,
15:30
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a father, I'm ay this, I may
15:34
Speaker 1: that all everything can be taken away from you.
15:36
Speaker 2: Right, So what happens when you're stripped of everything? Right?
15:41
Speaker 2: That happened to us very very early in our lives.
15:43
Speaker 2: And I think when I when I delve into the
15:47
Speaker 2: depths of what that means, the horror of it. Right,
15:52
Speaker 2: if you think about every child who is born is
15:58
Speaker 2: blessed with the ability to be a child. It's blessed
16:01
Speaker 2: with the naivety of what life has to offer, the dreaming.
16:06
Speaker 2: We all have that desire to be something in someone
16:11
Speaker 2: and to add value and to be valuable. And it
16:14
Speaker 2: may not be as deep as that sounds. We want
16:17
Speaker 2: to have a good life, but what happens when everything
16:20
Speaker 2: is stripped away from you? There's a prayer that Muslims
16:25
Speaker 2: praying in Arabic. It says iyaka na abu du la
16:29
Speaker 2: iyaka a stadi, and what it means in English is
16:34
Speaker 2: to God. We're saying, you alone do we worship? And
16:39
Speaker 2: you alone do we ask for help. Everything that we
16:44
Speaker 2: have been given is because of the Creator, and it's
16:49
Speaker 2: a disservice to us when we don't give God or
16:54
Speaker 2: the Creator it's due because then we honor God and
16:58
Speaker 2: then we're blessed with more to Always talk about like
17:01
Speaker 2: how do you get more money by giving it away?
17:04
Speaker 2: You know, it's a concept that is kind of aloof
17:07
Speaker 2: from people who don't have money, who need money, But
17:10
Speaker 2: this is like how do I give money away? Like
17:11
Speaker 2: I need money, like I need money to survive. But
17:14
Speaker 2: once you find out that charity increases your wealth and
17:18
Speaker 2: it increases your spiritual wealth as well. You feel better,
17:21
Speaker 2: and especially if you give more than what you thought
17:23
Speaker 2: you would have given, it begins to feed you and
17:27
Speaker 2: nourish you in a way that you could not have
17:28
Speaker 2: been fed or nourished any other way. And I think
17:31
Speaker 2: that that's the part that's important. The secret is being
17:36
Speaker 2: able to plug back into the source. There's been a challenge,
17:40
Speaker 2: I think, all along in our lives where we're trying
17:43
Speaker 2: to figure out why are we here? What are we
17:46
Speaker 2: supposed to do with our lives? And there's those of
17:49
Speaker 2: us who have kind of come close to it whove
17:52
Speaker 2: kind of figured something out. They're using it to push
17:55
Speaker 2: forward in life and add value to life and also
17:58
Speaker 2: add value to others. And I think that that's the
18:01
Speaker 2: part that's important, being able to share your life in
18:04
Speaker 2: such a way where it's no longer about you, but
18:08
Speaker 2: it's about who else can listen and become enlightened by
18:14
Speaker 2: what it is that you've gone through, because if you
18:16
Speaker 2: were able to survive it, they can survive it too.
18:20
Speaker 2: If I went to prison, and I don't say this
18:22
Speaker 2: to impress anyone, but rather to impress upon people that
18:26
Speaker 2: if I went to prison and got a college degree.
18:30
Speaker 2: We can do anything. People who are looking for a job,
18:35
Speaker 2: who are trying to figure out a way out of
18:37
Speaker 2: no way, they have time now to use their minds
18:41
Speaker 2: in a way that they've never used their minds before
18:43
Speaker 2: and create solutions to some of the problems that we have.
18:47
Speaker 2: And some of those solutions are going to yield enormous,
18:52
Speaker 2: enormous value. And even if that means that you have
18:55
Speaker 2: to go back to a normal nine to five, you
18:58
Speaker 2: can return to the normal nine name knowing that there's
19:02
Speaker 2: something more valuable that you can contribute if you haven't
19:05
Speaker 2: been doing your best, But if you've been doing your best,
19:10
Speaker 2: then you know that that's all you can do. Once
19:13
Speaker 2: I plug in and say I'm going to do my best,
19:16
Speaker 2: I can go into a space that may say, hey,
19:18
Speaker 2: we only have a dollar to give you. I'm going
19:21
Speaker 2: to give them a two million dollar speech. And it
19:25
Speaker 2: helps me. It has value and purpose to me. It
19:30
Speaker 2: allows me to become better and to show up in
19:34
Speaker 2: spaces more plugged in, more dynamic, more willing to serve
19:39
Speaker 2: because it's about the service. That's what it's all about.
19:45
Speaker 1: No, I'm with you too. It's interesting. I'm not a
19:47
Speaker 1: religious person, but I feel like there is no greater
19:51
Speaker 1: joy than in being able to lift somebody else up.
19:56
Speaker 1: You've certainly found your gift for doing that, which is
19:59
Speaker 1: awesome and great to see, and I know that it's
20:02
Speaker 1: going to have an impact on people in our audience
20:06
Speaker 1: who are feeling frustrated, you know. But I have to ask,
20:11
Speaker 1: there must have been moments when you felt bitter, anger y,
20:16
Speaker 1: me type of feeling. Was there a darkest moment that
20:20
Speaker 1: you can recall from all those many years you spent
20:23
Speaker 1: in prison?
20:25
Speaker 2: You know? I think it all was dark, and I
20:27
Speaker 2: think that the light that I found in the darkness
20:32
Speaker 2: was when I remembered. Once I began to get nervous,
20:37
Speaker 2: then it got more dark. But once I remembered that
20:41
Speaker 2: I was going through this, or rather I was growing
20:46
Speaker 2: through this, then it all made sense. Then I could
20:49
Speaker 2: see the light imminating more. But if I let the
20:53
Speaker 2: darkness consume what I was growing through, I would have
20:56
Speaker 2: never been able to survive.
21:10
Speaker 1: You're a father many times over now, and that's got
21:14
Speaker 1: to approach particular challenges. I would think with people going
21:16
Speaker 1: stir crazy in the house, not being able to go
21:18
Speaker 1: out to school and do other things the kids are
21:21
Speaker 1: used to doing. So I'm interested in your perspective because
21:24
Speaker 1: a lot of other people are going through the same thing,
21:27
Speaker 1: and can you share any Is there a funny story
21:31
Speaker 1: or anything else from this experience of being stuck at
21:34
Speaker 1: home with the kids?
21:36
Speaker 2: You know? So I think the funniest story of being
21:39
Speaker 2: stuck at home with the children are finding ways to start,
21:44
Speaker 2: like to not go still crazy. I mean, children all
21:47
Speaker 2: times of the day, all times of the night, they're
21:50
Speaker 2: doing all kinds of funny, cool things. You know. We
21:53
Speaker 2: have these amazing moments all the time where either my
21:58
Speaker 2: eldest daughter in the house now, who's she's developing her
22:02
Speaker 2: ability to really become a great artist, and she's drawing
22:06
Speaker 2: these beautiful pieces of artwork. I mean, it's just it
22:09
Speaker 2: blows my mind because of course the other children are
22:13
Speaker 2: just maturing and I'm here, you know, I'm usually on
22:15
Speaker 2: the road a lot, and I'm usually sharing with the
22:17
Speaker 2: rest of the world, and so now I have this
22:19
Speaker 2: opportunity to be at home, to be a father, to
22:22
Speaker 2: be hands on, and to see the growth and development
22:25
Speaker 2: that happens with the children all the time. And I
22:27
Speaker 2: think that that's something that you don't want to miss.
22:30
Speaker 2: There's a value in that that you really want to
22:33
Speaker 2: be able to participate in and be able to witness
22:36
Speaker 2: and to see. And then of course I have older
22:38
Speaker 2: children who are in New York, and to share with
22:42
Speaker 2: them and to talk with them mentally, they are on
22:46
Speaker 2: a whole nother level. I'm still seeing them as my babies,
22:50
Speaker 2: but there are adults. They're on the cusp of being adults,
22:53
Speaker 2: and of course being able to share with them some
22:55
Speaker 2: of my wisdom and insights adds value to what they're
22:59
Speaker 2: going through. Yeah.
23:01
Speaker 1: I guess that comes back to something that someone reminds
23:04
Speaker 1: me of frequently, which is when when I say, oh,
23:06
Speaker 1: I have to go do something, it's like no, no,
23:08
Speaker 1: you get to.
23:09
Speaker 2: Go do whatever. You don't have to do it, right.
23:11
Speaker 1: So it's really just sometimes changing one word and change
23:15
Speaker 1: your whole perspective. And I appreciate you reminding me of that.
23:19
Speaker 1: So this is the part of the show that our
23:23
Speaker 1: listeners are familiar with and that I think they appreciate
23:27
Speaker 1: and enjoy, probably as much as any part of the
23:29
Speaker 1: show I know I do. So I want to again
23:33
Speaker 1: thank our very special guest today, doctor Yusuf Salaam. I'd
23:37
Speaker 1: like to turn it over to you for what I
23:39
Speaker 1: call words of wisdom. So thanks again. I'm going to
23:43
Speaker 1: kick back and just listen to what you have to say.
23:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, So I'm just honored to be here, honored
23:49
Speaker 2: to be alive and to be able to share. And
23:52
Speaker 2: one of the things I want to give people is
23:55
Speaker 2: the idea of never giving up trying to do the
24:00
Speaker 2: best that you can, especially now, and I think most
24:04
Speaker 2: important to reinvent yourself. When we show up in this
24:08
Speaker 2: new world in the next few months, the next few weeks,
24:12
Speaker 2: I think we want to show up our best selves.
24:15
Speaker 2: And I want to say that kind of like emphatically.
24:18
Speaker 2: If we can put our best foot forward, become our
24:20
Speaker 2: best selves, then that's where we can really gain the
24:24
Speaker 2: truth benefit from life. And that's what it's all about,
24:28
Speaker 2: being able to be here and say that we mattered.
24:31
Speaker 2: We don't want to leave this world without a trace.
24:33
Speaker 2: As my good friend Les Brown says, we want to
24:35
Speaker 2: be able to at the end of our lives be
24:37
Speaker 2: able to look back and say every thing that we
24:41
Speaker 2: were supposed to do, we were able to do it.
24:44
Speaker 2: Every idea that came to our minds, we gave birth
24:47
Speaker 2: to it. We don't want to be on our deathbeds,
24:49
Speaker 2: when all of the hope streams and aspirations are looking
24:52
Speaker 2: at us and knowing that they're going to die with
24:55
Speaker 2: us because we didn't give it life. The best thing
24:58
Speaker 2: that we can do is give life to not only
25:01
Speaker 2: things that come to us and the value that we
25:04
Speaker 2: can add, but give life and allow our lives to
25:08
Speaker 2: show other people how to participate fully in their lives.
25:12
Speaker 2: We don't want to be on the sidelines looking at
25:13
Speaker 2: other people's lives anymore. We have to participate.
25:20
Speaker 1: Wow, that was awesome. I really hope you got as
25:26
Speaker 1: much out of it as I did, because every time
25:30
Speaker 1: I hear doctor Salam speak the perspective, the grace, the
25:36
Speaker 1: optimism of a man who has been to hell and back,
25:41
Speaker 1: who was sent to prison, to you know, to some
25:46
Speaker 1: of the roughest prisons in the country as a young teenager,
25:49
Speaker 1: and who took the opportunity to find himself as opposed
25:54
Speaker 1: to collapsing or acting out and emerged stronger, better, and
26:01
Speaker 1: now is really just a beacon of light and otherwise
26:06
Speaker 1: very dark in the time that we find ourselves in.
26:11
Speaker 1: So yeah, doctor Yusa Salam, the only word I can
26:16
Speaker 1: think of for you as hero. Now I want to
26:20
Speaker 1: end by saying thank you to our first responders, the
26:24
Speaker 1: healthcare providers, all the essential workers, cleaning people, everyone who's
26:30
Speaker 1: doing their best to help keep our society going. And
26:34
Speaker 1: I want to also shout out the people who are
26:37
Speaker 1: working in our courts through this difficult time that the
26:40
Speaker 1: public defenders, the defense attorneys and others who are you know,
26:46
Speaker 1: they're going to work and they're putting on their masks
26:49
Speaker 1: and their gloves and they're you know, they're out there
26:52
Speaker 1: doing their level best. So many who could be phoning
26:56
Speaker 1: it in are out there fighting for their clients. Props
27:00
Speaker 1: to you as well. In the meantime, I hope you've
27:03
Speaker 1: been listening to Laura and I writer and Steve Drissen
27:05
Speaker 1: as they enlighten us on their podcast False Confessions. They
27:10
Speaker 1: have two more amazing episodes left before the start of
27:12
Speaker 1: our new season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. I
27:17
Speaker 1: hope you've taken some of the priceless wisdom from our
27:20
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted community to heart. It all was not easily earned.
27:25
Speaker 1: I mean, this was the hardest possible way. They earned
27:28
Speaker 1: this wisdom, these unbelievable people sharing their thoughts. This is
27:34
Speaker 1: the last episode of our mini series as we focus
27:36
Speaker 1: our efforts on the upcoming season. So keep staying safe
27:40
Speaker 1: and thank you for joining us for an alternative perspective
27:43
Speaker 1: on living in the time of COVID. Don't forget to
27:50
Speaker 1: give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts.
27:53
Speaker 2: It really helps.
27:54
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the NISIS Project, and
27:57
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
28:00
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
28:04
Speaker 1: to innisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and
28:07
Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
28:10
Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
28:13
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
28:16
Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
28:19
Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm
28:24
Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association
28:27
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one