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Scam, Continued · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 1: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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Speaker 1: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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Speaker 1: exactly right Media.
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Speaker 2: I suddenly made almost one hundred thousand dollars. I'm watching
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Speaker 2: it happen right there in front of me on the screen,
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Speaker 2: and I'm going, is that how people get rich?
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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Knife. I'm Hannah Smith, I'm patia Eton.
0:45
Speaker 1: This week we're speaking with Chancy Lewis, a retired school
0:48
Speaker 1: teacher in Colorado who, while grieving the loss of his wife,
0:51
Speaker 1: formed an unlikely friendship with a stranger, and soon he
0:55
Speaker 1: was pulled into a complex scheme. But during our conversation,
0:58
Speaker 1: something unexpected happened. We began to realize that it might
1:02
Speaker 1: not be over, and actually there might be another scheme
1:06
Speaker 1: already in motion. This was happening as patient and I
1:09
Speaker 1: were wrapping up the interview, and then we basically attempted
1:13
Speaker 1: to intervene in real time. Let's get into it, Hi, Chancy,
1:21
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today.
1:23
Speaker 3: Certainly, yeah, would you mind starting off just introducing yourself? However,
1:27
Speaker 3: you're comfortable with us introducing you on the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Sure. My name is Chancey Lewis. I'm a retired school
1:36
Speaker 2: teacher live in Colorado Springs, recent winnwer What can you.
1:42
Speaker 3: Tell us about Sandy? How did you to meet.
1:46
Speaker 2: Met Sandy and Sunday School and the way she tells
1:51
Speaker 2: the story, I almost fell out of a chair when
1:53
Speaker 2: you walked in the door. We got married in six
1:55
Speaker 2: months after that and then stayed there forty years. So
1:59
Speaker 2: she had adventurous spirit and she loved taking road trips
2:04
Speaker 2: where we didn't really have a destination. There were sometimes
2:07
Speaker 2: when it started off going to the next town for
2:10
Speaker 2: the farmer's market and ended up in Houston. She was
2:13
Speaker 2: also a fantastic cook. She had approximately ninety cookbooks in
2:20
Speaker 2: her collection and we in fact gave those away to
2:24
Speaker 2: whom ever wanted them when we had a memorial service
2:27
Speaker 2: for her back in June. Sandy taught special education and
2:33
Speaker 2: she always took the toughest kids that people said you
2:36
Speaker 2: can't teach them anything, and she would find a way.
2:39
Speaker 2: So she was spectacular woman.
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Speaker 3: Sandy passed away on March twelfth, twenty twenty five, after
2:49
Speaker 3: battling a prolonged illness. She and Chancey had been married
2:53
Speaker 3: for over forty years.
2:56
Speaker 2: She was in and out of the hospital about nine times,
3:00
Speaker 2: all related to problems with diabetes, blood pressure, kidney function,
3:06
Speaker 2: liver function. It was basically things were rough and we
3:12
Speaker 2: were going through really tough time because she was feeling
3:15
Speaker 2: so poorly, and I was trying to continue to work
3:19
Speaker 2: as a substitute teacher, which made me away from home
3:23
Speaker 2: for a long periods of time during the day. And
3:27
Speaker 2: in fact, it was one of those days when I
3:30
Speaker 2: was off substitute teaching that Sandy had arranged to finally
3:36
Speaker 2: be able to get into see aenephrologist kidney doctor here
3:40
Speaker 2: in town. And she had been trying for months to
3:43
Speaker 2: get in to see this person, and so finally we
3:48
Speaker 2: had an appointment, and I couldn't take her because I
3:51
Speaker 2: had a job and we needed the income, and so
3:56
Speaker 2: a friend of ours decided she would come by and
3:58
Speaker 2: pick her up and take her to the doctor. And
4:03
Speaker 2: then I got the phone call at school that she
4:05
Speaker 2: had found my wife dead earlier that morning.
4:10
Speaker 3: Before leaving for work, Chancey told Sandy he loved her
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Speaker 3: and he hoped her appointment went well, and just a
4:16
Speaker 3: few hours later he learned that she had died their
4:20
Speaker 3: home in Colorado, once filled with the smells of whatever
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Speaker 3: Sandy was cooking that night, it was emptier.
4:25
Speaker 2: Now.
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Speaker 3: For the last year, Chancey had been everything, Sandy's caretaker
4:29
Speaker 3: and their sole provider, carrying a weight that would take
4:32
Speaker 3: a toll on anyone, and now in an instant he
4:36
Speaker 3: was plunged into grief.
4:38
Speaker 2: Except for the two dogs that I had at the time,
4:41
Speaker 2: I didn't have a real reason to come home. I
4:43
Speaker 2: basically I made it through my work day. I get
4:47
Speaker 2: something the in the end of the evening there was nothing,
4:51
Speaker 2: So television be came a crouch and let me tell you,
4:56
Speaker 2: you get real fast where you know everything's going to
4:58
Speaker 2: happen in every drama the day. My attitude just kept
5:02
Speaker 2: really that there were a couple of times when you know,
5:08
Speaker 2: it was easier to get a slug of bourbon that
5:11
Speaker 2: it was to worry about whether I enjoyed anything. And
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Speaker 2: I used to read so voraciously that Sandy would wonder
5:22
Speaker 2: if my pulse was moving. But I went for about
5:27
Speaker 2: three months where I didn't finish a single bob. I
5:30
Speaker 2: even went into psychological therapy that was provided by Medicare
5:37
Speaker 2: with a psychologist, and we had several sessions together the
5:41
Speaker 2: Medicare would only pay for one session a month.
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Speaker 3: For a few months after Sandy's death, Chancey continued teaching,
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Speaker 3: but the days were long and exhausting. Coming home at
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Speaker 3: the end of each day brought relief, but it also
5:55
Speaker 3: brought silence. Sandy had been the social one, and without her,
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Speaker 3: it was usually just Chancey and the dogs. Then one
6:03
Speaker 3: night in August of twenty twenty five, Chancey got a
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Speaker 3: text from an unknown number.
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Speaker 2: I was going through my text messages and there was
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Speaker 2: a number I'd phone number I didn't recognize, and the
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Speaker 2: person on the other end said, Hi, Dan, And I
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Speaker 2: texted back and says that I think you got wrong number.
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Speaker 2: There's no Dan here, and good luck with your search.
6:32
Speaker 2: A couple of days later, she texted back and said,
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Speaker 2: who is this? And you know, part of my background
6:41
Speaker 2: as a teacher meant to talk to anybody who needed it,
6:45
Speaker 2: so it was easy to start, especially when I was typing,
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Speaker 2: to just get conversational. And next thing I know, she
6:54
Speaker 2: suggests that we move over to WhatsApp because it had
6:58
Speaker 2: better encryption. So it got started getting back and forth
7:02
Speaker 2: and generalities and where you're from. Found out she was
7:07
Speaker 2: originally from China. And according to her and her dad
7:11
Speaker 2: had been an economic advisor with the government and was
7:15
Speaker 2: now in banking, and her mother was Italian and had
7:21
Speaker 2: passed away a few years earlier. So it sounded like,
7:24
Speaker 2: you know, an online friendship.
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Speaker 1: What did she say? Her name was.
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Speaker 2: Isabella Maria Chin, you know. So it was anecdotal, the
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Speaker 2: sort of things that you do to get to know somebody.
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Speaker 2: And sometimes it would go on for just a few
7:38
Speaker 2: exchanges during the day, and other times it started getting
7:41
Speaker 2: where it was much longer, you know, like we just
7:44
Speaker 2: chatted through the evening.
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Speaker 1: Where did she say she was living at the time, Seattle, Okay?
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Speaker 1: And then how old was she?
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Speaker 2: Thirty five? So I just was going with the flow.
8:00
Speaker 2: Then one of the things I started noticing for a
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Speaker 2: couple of days or maybe longer, was that sometimes what
8:07
Speaker 2: would creep into her responses would be the word deer
8:12
Speaker 2: the ear. She was using it quite a bit, And
8:17
Speaker 2: I said, pardon me, but you know, some of this
8:20
Speaker 2: stuff is sounding like you're flirting with me. And she said, well,
8:25
Speaker 2: I think we've got something to talk about. I said, yeah,
8:28
Speaker 2: but you realize I'm seventy five, right, And she says,
8:32
Speaker 2: it's just a number. And she sent pictures. We had
8:37
Speaker 2: a little brief video exchange one evening all that on Whatsappen.
8:42
Speaker 1: What language was she speaking in your video call?
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Speaker 2: It was English? Yeah, she was fluent in English. And
8:50
Speaker 2: then she told me the story about how, you know,
8:52
Speaker 2: she had attended not only university in China, but she'd
8:56
Speaker 2: also gone to London to go at finance school. And
9:03
Speaker 2: she told me that she owned a string of shops
9:06
Speaker 2: that provided cosmetic healthcare, in other words, a lot of
9:10
Speaker 2: botox and life was suction or whatever they do. Their
9:15
Speaker 2: graduate work was in finance, and according to her anecdotes,
9:20
Speaker 2: that would sound it like something that she would have
9:22
Speaker 2: done because her dad was involved in finance.
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Speaker 3: And I'm curious, you know, she sort of says, yes,
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Speaker 3: I am flirting with you. I am interested. Were you
9:31
Speaker 3: reciprocating that. Did you feel like, uh, okay, I'm interested
9:34
Speaker 3: in this person too, or you know, how did that
9:37
Speaker 3: feel for you? And did you too, ever make plans
9:39
Speaker 3: to meet in person?
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Speaker 2: At first, I was thinking, come on, this this is
9:47
Speaker 2: not going to go anywhere. This is too ridiculous. But
9:51
Speaker 2: after a while, I mean, the affection felt good. She said,
9:57
Speaker 2: you ought to come out to Seattle. And the show
10:00
Speaker 2: you this down and we'll go to some good restaurants.
10:05
Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, well, you remember I was a
10:07
Speaker 2: retired school teacher. We don't do that kind of stuff
10:10
Speaker 2: much chance.
10:12
Speaker 3: He had retired and between his modest pension and social Security,
10:16
Speaker 3: he was able to cover all of his expenses, but
10:19
Speaker 3: taking an expensive trip that was out of the question. Still,
10:23
Speaker 3: it felt good to connect with someone new. Well, it
10:27
Speaker 3: makes sense that having just lost your wife, to have
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Speaker 3: someone to talk to, to have someone to engage with regularly,
10:34
Speaker 3: and someone who's interesting has had this interesting life, and
10:38
Speaker 3: that's a very human thing, you know, for anyone to
10:41
Speaker 3: want to have that kind of connection. And it sounds
10:44
Speaker 3: like she was indicating, oh, come out to Seattle, and
10:48
Speaker 3: maybe you were saying, well, yeah, but I'm not. I'm retired,
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Speaker 3: so I'm not going to go out there and blow
10:52
Speaker 3: a bunch of money. And she kind of blew that off,
10:55
Speaker 3: was like, well, that's fine, because I have more than
10:57
Speaker 3: enough money.
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Speaker 1: It was that sort of.
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Speaker 2: Thee yeah, yeah, I don't need your money. It went
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Speaker 2: on like that for a while before she ever got
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Speaker 2: around to suggesting that if you'd like me to show
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Speaker 2: you how I did this, I can do that. We're
11:16
Speaker 2: not talking about a few hours here, We're talking about
11:19
Speaker 2: she was investing a lot of attention, and so that's
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Speaker 2: kind of made me feel like, Okay, if she were
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Speaker 2: really a scammer, she wouldn't be doing this.
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Speaker 1: How long do you think it's okay if you don't
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Speaker 1: know exactly, but you were chatting regularly for how long
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Speaker 1: until she started mentioning the financial investment?
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Speaker 2: Oh, probably two or three weeks?
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Speaker 1: And then how did she broach that subject? Can you
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Speaker 1: kind of walk us through that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was basically I probably said something
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Speaker 2: really advantageous, like well, you know, I probably ought to
11:58
Speaker 2: look into something like that. She said, well, you know,
12:01
Speaker 2: if you're ever interested, I can show you how this works.
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Speaker 2: So she was really subtle about it. And the idea
12:09
Speaker 2: started to grow on me that I said, well, you know,
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Speaker 2: I still don't have any money, and she said, well,
12:14
Speaker 2: do you have anything? And at the time, I was
12:18
Speaker 2: sitting on a couple of thousand dollars in savings account.
12:23
Speaker 2: I said, well, I could put a put it, you know,
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Speaker 2: a thousand dollars down and she said, well, look, get
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Speaker 2: you started.
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Speaker 1: What was her proposition, you know, was she going to
12:35
Speaker 1: send you what you should invest in. Did she say
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Speaker 1: that she had her own fund? What was the story
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Speaker 1: she was giving you?
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Speaker 2: Well, she said, well, first thing you got to do
12:46
Speaker 2: is you need to go and popular wallet out there
12:51
Speaker 2: is for crypto dot com and it's connected to coinbase.
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Speaker 3: Okay, Here's what Hannah and I were able to piece
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Speaker 3: together about the instructions that Isabella gave Chancy when it
13:04
Speaker 3: came to investing his one thousand dollars. First, she asked
13:08
Speaker 3: Chancy to create a digital wallet through Coinbase. Coinbase is
13:13
Speaker 3: a well known online platform for buying, selling, transferring, and
13:17
Speaker 3: storing digital currency. So Chancey went ahead and converted his
13:21
Speaker 3: one thousand dollars into cryptocurrency on Coinbase, and up to
13:26
Speaker 3: this point everything was legitimate. Next, Isabella told Chancey that
13:31
Speaker 3: she specialized in something called arbitrage trading, a strategy that
13:36
Speaker 3: takes advantage of price differences for the c masset across
13:39
Speaker 3: different markets. It's not unique to crypto. It sounded sophisticated, plausible.
13:46
Speaker 3: Then Isabella gave Chancy her next instruction. She told Chancy
13:51
Speaker 3: to transfer his cryptocurrency from Coinbase to a separate website.
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Speaker 3: He recalls the name of this website as arbitra trajefree
14:00
Speaker 3: dot com. At no point during this process did Chancey
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Speaker 3: hand over his login information or give Isabella any direct
14:08
Speaker 3: access to his accounts.
14:11
Speaker 2: And it felt very legitimate. She said, Now, this is
14:14
Speaker 2: the platform that I used to make a couple of million,
14:18
Speaker 2: and it worked pretty smoothly. The deal was for one
14:23
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. That put me in the first position, and
14:27
Speaker 2: arbitrage free dot Com then allowed me to make three trades.
14:32
Speaker 2: I pulled in more than ten percent return online investment,
14:37
Speaker 2: or at least that's what the you know, that's what
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Speaker 2: the scorecard was showing. Then came the news that, oh,
14:44
Speaker 2: you exhausted, that they won't let you go any further
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Speaker 2: because you need to go to the next level. Well,
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Speaker 2: the next level was five thousand, and then after that
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Speaker 2: was fifty thousand.
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Speaker 3: And so you're living off of what a pension as
15:00
Speaker 3: this is.
15:00
Speaker 2: Happening, and social security.
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Speaker 3: And social security. So your savings account, you said you
15:07
Speaker 3: had a few thousand dollars in it, but you are
15:09
Speaker 3: getting money every month that you're able to live off of. Yeah,
15:14
Speaker 3: so when you log into your account and you see
15:17
Speaker 3: on the screen these big returns, you want to continue investing.
15:22
Speaker 3: But then you're also being told to get to this
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Speaker 3: quote next level, you need a certain amount of money
15:27
Speaker 3: that you don't have, and so what is your next step?
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Speaker 3: How do you get there?
15:35
Speaker 2: I rated my retirement account for forty four thousand. That
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Speaker 2: brought me to fifty thousand with what I'd earned otherwise.
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Speaker 2: Then when the arbitrage free allowed me to make five
15:51
Speaker 2: trades in that mode, and suddenly, thanks to the fact
15:56
Speaker 2: that she had showed me how to engage with what
16:00
Speaker 2: she said was herself and a group of colleagues from
16:04
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom Finance college she'd attended, and her brother
16:11
Speaker 2: who was in finance in London. She said, we're going
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Speaker 2: to make a trade. Would you like to be in
16:16
Speaker 2: on it? And I said, of course, And so I
16:20
Speaker 2: posted my trade following the instructions that she gave me,
16:25
Speaker 2: and in a five minute trade, I suddenly made almost
16:30
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars. I'm watching it happen right there
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Speaker 2: in front of me on the screen, and I'm going,
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Speaker 2: is that how these guys did it? Is that how
16:40
Speaker 2: people get rich?
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Speaker 3: Chancey couldn't believe his luck. His retirement had paid the bills,
16:46
Speaker 3: but certainly didn't offer any flourishes beyond the necessities, and
16:51
Speaker 3: suddenly the world was opening up to him. Maybe he
16:54
Speaker 3: could spend his retirement traveling with this kind of money.
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Speaker 3: The possibilities really seemed endless. But there was one problem.
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Speaker 3: He didn't know how to withdraw the money from arbitrage
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Speaker 3: free dot Com. He had to ask Isabella to help
17:07
Speaker 3: him with it each time.
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Speaker 2: Well, I asked her if I can pull some money
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Speaker 2: out and start putting money back into my retirement account,
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Speaker 2: and she says, well, sure, but we'll get about to
17:18
Speaker 2: approach the next level. And the next level was one
17:21
Speaker 2: hundred thousand.
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Speaker 3: So this person then says, you need to actually put
17:27
Speaker 3: in one hundred thousand to reach the next level.
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Speaker 2: It wasn't that much because I had so much in
17:34
Speaker 2: the account as a result of their first investments. But
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Speaker 2: by this time, the total percentage of investment had reached
17:43
Speaker 2: more than eighty percent. Of the money that I had
17:46
Speaker 2: put in had been essentially doubled.
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Speaker 3: But when you say I want to take money out
17:52
Speaker 3: and put some back into my savings and my retirement,
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Speaker 3: she says, okay, but if you add this much more,
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Speaker 3: you can unlock the next level of trading.
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Speaker 2: That's correct, okay, yeah, And in fact I did two
18:05
Speaker 2: or three withdrawals just to cover things that I had
18:09
Speaker 2: to cover, which made it feel even more legitimate.
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Speaker 3: How much did you withdraw that you had put in there?
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Speaker 2: About twenty five hundred dollars? And I did need in
18:21
Speaker 2: order to get to the next level. I needed to
18:24
Speaker 2: keep my money working. And that was where I got
18:29
Speaker 2: caught up in the world, because I mean, suddenly, it
18:34
Speaker 2: wasn't long before I had committed myself to take out
18:40
Speaker 2: a second mortgage on the house.
18:49
Speaker 3: In August of twenty twenty five, just a few months
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Speaker 3: after his wife of forty years passed away, Chancy Lewis
18:56
Speaker 3: struck up a friendship with a stranger over text message.
19:00
Speaker 3: Within a few short months, she'd drawn him into what
19:02
Speaker 3: seemed like an incredible investment opportunity, the kind of money
19:06
Speaker 3: that would change Chancey's life. And when Chancey logged into
19:10
Speaker 3: his account on arbitrage free dot com, it looked like
19:14
Speaker 3: he was earning massive returns, so he kept investing. He
19:18
Speaker 3: took out a second mortgage on his home, and then
19:21
Speaker 3: he secured a hefty bank loan.
19:24
Speaker 2: Eventually it got to the point where my investment had
19:28
Speaker 2: reached about one hundred and sixty thousand dollars, but the
19:33
Speaker 2: return showed that. In fact, I copied down what it
19:38
Speaker 2: said at one point that I had earned more than
19:42
Speaker 2: two hundred and forty thousand dollars from my one hundred
19:48
Speaker 2: and sixty thousand dollars investment.
19:51
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm wondering when you took out either of
19:54
Speaker 3: those loans, either the second mortgage or the loan, did
19:58
Speaker 3: anyone at the bank ask for financial records where you
20:02
Speaker 3: referred back to this site.
20:04
Speaker 2: Oh? No, They just basically they wanted to know how
20:09
Speaker 2: much was I pulling in from my pension and my
20:12
Speaker 2: social security And they plugged it into an algorithm and
20:16
Speaker 2: they said, sure, what you meant toab it? And I
20:18
Speaker 2: had to sign the papers. It was so easy.
20:21
Speaker 3: Did you have to tell them what it was for?
20:23
Speaker 3: Did they ask why you were taking out loans?
20:26
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I lied. I said, oh, I've tried to
20:29
Speaker 2: get a business started. Another time, I said, well, there's
20:32
Speaker 2: things that need to be done to the house. It's
20:34
Speaker 2: twenty five years old, and I need to make some
20:37
Speaker 2: investment in my property.
20:39
Speaker 3: I'm wondering why you lied.
20:42
Speaker 2: I don't usually, mostly because I didn't respect I've always
20:48
Speaker 2: felt like, you know, people who had control of money
20:51
Speaker 2: thought it was not my right, and it's seventy five.
20:56
Speaker 2: I kind of feel like I earned the right to
20:58
Speaker 2: make all my own decisions about my mind money.
21:01
Speaker 3: By the time he'd taken out a second loan chance,
21:04
Speaker 3: he had already been warned multiple times that he was
21:07
Speaker 3: likely being scammed. First he was warned by a financial institution,
21:11
Speaker 3: and then he was warned by two different crypto trading platforms.
21:15
Speaker 3: So when he went to make a large withdrawal from
21:18
Speaker 3: his retirement account, he anticipated he might get that same reaction,
21:22
Speaker 3: which is exactly what ended up happening.
21:26
Speaker 2: The people I had hired to supervise my retirement account,
21:30
Speaker 2: who were with Charles Schwab, tried to talk me out
21:33
Speaker 2: of it. When I made my first wire transfer from
21:38
Speaker 2: my bank, the transfer was held up until I talked
21:42
Speaker 2: to two different levels of people in the banks fraud department.
21:49
Speaker 2: They tried to tell me, you know, are you sure?
21:53
Speaker 2: And then by the time I made the second or
21:56
Speaker 2: third attempt to transfer money, Coinbase held up my transfer
22:03
Speaker 2: for nine days. So when Coinbase got to be so obstreperous,
22:09
Speaker 2: I moved over to kracken Well. Kracking made one transfer,
22:14
Speaker 2: and then the next one they just sat on it
22:16
Speaker 2: for two weeks and didn't want to turn it loose.
22:20
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I was going to ask what was the
22:23
Speaker 1: reason from Coinbase and from Kracken for withhold, you know,
22:27
Speaker 1: pausing this transfer specifically.
22:31
Speaker 2: We think this money may be directed as a scam.
22:34
Speaker 2: Take our little course on how to Spot a scam.
22:38
Speaker 1: Just to follow up on that, because I'm sure it's
22:41
Speaker 1: hard to think back about now, Like, okay, Charles Schwap,
22:43
Speaker 1: people tried to warn you and then both the Coinbase
22:46
Speaker 1: and Kraken said this is a scam. It's interesting to
22:50
Speaker 1: think about how we build trust and who we trust,
22:54
Speaker 1: because for whatever reason, it does seem like you had
22:58
Speaker 1: more trust in Isabella at this point, to the point
23:03
Speaker 1: where these institutions were trying to warn you. But you know,
23:08
Speaker 1: I'm curious why you think they were less trustworthy to
23:12
Speaker 1: you than she was.
23:15
Speaker 2: Uh, I guess because I thought, well, you know, I've
23:19
Speaker 2: looked them up. I have searched the internet to try
23:24
Speaker 2: and find something else about this person.
23:29
Speaker 1: Had she said anything to you like don't trust your
23:32
Speaker 1: bank when they flag this. Did she say anything directly
23:36
Speaker 1: like that or no?
23:37
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah she said you know, they don't understand
23:40
Speaker 2: or they will try to talk to you out it
23:42
Speaker 2: because you don't have a background in technology that's statued
23:46
Speaker 2: to finance, so they're probably going to think that you
23:48
Speaker 2: don't know what you're doing. Well, that's like waving a
23:52
Speaker 2: jerky strip in front of a hungry dog. What do
23:55
Speaker 2: you mean? Of course I know what I'm doing.
23:58
Speaker 3: A personal connection and can be so powerful. We often
24:03
Speaker 3: trust people more than fathless institutions, and Isabella had convinced
24:08
Speaker 3: Chancy that she was a wealthy business owner, made even
24:10
Speaker 3: wealthier by savvy investments. The friendship was new, but she'd
24:14
Speaker 3: endeared herself to him. So when Isabella told Chancey that
24:18
Speaker 3: big institutions didn't have his best interest at heart, and
24:22
Speaker 3: maybe even looked down on him because he wasn't some
24:24
Speaker 3: finance hotshot but a retired teacher, Chancey believed her. But
24:30
Speaker 3: even beyond what Chancey was feeling, he was also seeing
24:34
Speaker 3: evidence of his investment growing right before his eyes. On
24:38
Speaker 3: arbitrage free dot Com, the website that Isabella had directed
24:42
Speaker 3: him to, Chancey gathered all his assets plus loans to
24:46
Speaker 3: the tune of one hundred and sixty thousand dollars and
24:49
Speaker 3: funneled it all onto this website, and according to what
24:53
Speaker 3: he sees on the screen, his money has doubled.
24:58
Speaker 2: I get a notice that I owe taxes income taxes,
25:02
Speaker 2: and until I paid the taxes, my account is frozen.
25:05
Speaker 2: Sitting in my account is three hundred and sixty three
25:09
Speaker 2: thousand dollars according to their scorecard. You know, that's what
25:13
Speaker 2: they're showing. And I said, well, take the money out
25:16
Speaker 2: of the account, let's get it paid. No, that's not
25:18
Speaker 2: the way it words. You have to send the money
25:20
Speaker 2: in from outside. And of course, guess what, the government
25:25
Speaker 2: was shut down, so there was nobody I could even
25:28
Speaker 2: turn to it irs and say, is this the way
25:31
Speaker 2: you do it? You know, my account is frozen. What
25:34
Speaker 2: choice do I have. They're demanding eighty one thousand dollars
25:38
Speaker 2: in taxes and they've got it all down to the
25:41
Speaker 2: perfect scent. So I'm stuck there and I can't you know,
25:45
Speaker 2: I can't come up with any money that I can
25:48
Speaker 2: think of, and so I'm holding on and holding on,
25:51
Speaker 2: and I'm trying all kinds of different ways to get
25:53
Speaker 2: around that, and nothing seems to be working, and I'm
25:57
Speaker 2: getting more and more anxious, and I don't have anybody
26:01
Speaker 2: I can turn to to tell me if it's all
26:04
Speaker 2: accurate or not. So I sell, I sell a collection
26:11
Speaker 2: of jewelry that I'd made over the period of lifetime.
26:15
Speaker 2: There's some gold jewelry during the height of the gold boom.
26:21
Speaker 2: And managed to walk away with twelve thousand dollars. But
26:25
Speaker 2: that wasn't enough, and I told my friend that I
26:31
Speaker 2: just can't do it. I don't have any resources for
26:35
Speaker 2: eighty one thousand dollars. She says, well, deposit to twelve
26:40
Speaker 2: and I'll send some out of my account. Well that
26:43
Speaker 2: made sense, because after all, she was supposed to be rich.
26:47
Speaker 2: She could loan that to me, and then as soon
26:49
Speaker 2: as my money's released, I can turn right around pay back.
26:55
Speaker 2: She vanished, And that was October thirtieth.
27:03
Speaker 1: She vanished, meaning suddenly you can't get a hold of
27:06
Speaker 1: her boasted. But and still the situation when you go
27:09
Speaker 1: to arbitrage free dot com was that your account was
27:12
Speaker 1: frozen one day.
27:15
Speaker 2: The site didn't work, just doesn't work.
27:19
Speaker 1: When you went to the site and it didn't work,
27:23
Speaker 1: what was going through your head?
27:25
Speaker 2: Oh, I've been I've been taken. I've been taken. I
27:30
Speaker 2: knew it. I used an address that's called abuse at
27:38
Speaker 2: and then it had arbitrage free dot com. So it's
27:42
Speaker 2: an email address that was supposed to be to report
27:45
Speaker 2: abuse complaints. So I went to that and reported this
27:49
Speaker 2: whole affair. They said, if you feel like you've been violated,
27:55
Speaker 2: contact your local police department. Yeah, right, international scammers, and
28:02
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to contact Colorado Springs Police department. The people
28:07
Speaker 2: I know there are pretty good people, but they're not
28:10
Speaker 2: cyber whiz. No, nobody has a way to attack this problem.
28:20
Speaker 1: Today.
28:20
Speaker 3: If you go to arbitrage free dot com, you'll find
28:23
Speaker 3: the domain is for sale. This suggests that it was
28:27
Speaker 3: never a real trading platform at all. Instead, it was
28:30
Speaker 3: likely affront used to convince people like Chancey to move
28:34
Speaker 3: their cryptocurrency into a system controlled by a scammer or
28:39
Speaker 3: a group of scammers. Once that money was transferred, it
28:43
Speaker 3: became nearly impossible to recover or even trace. The illusion
28:48
Speaker 3: of profits kept the scheme alive until Chancey ran out
28:51
Speaker 3: of money, and then just like that, the site vanished
28:55
Speaker 3: along with the people behind it. When you realized I've
28:59
Speaker 3: been to frauded, like they've taken my money, this is
29:03
Speaker 3: not real. Did you tell anyone in your life.
29:07
Speaker 2: No, not for months, And why not? Well, I'm supposed
29:15
Speaker 2: to be a smart guy. I've got one master's degree
29:19
Speaker 2: in most of another one. I read all the time
29:23
Speaker 2: throughout any topic, in any conversation, and I know somehow
29:27
Speaker 2: to engage with it. And so I didn't want to
29:31
Speaker 2: risk looking foolish to my friends. Who does you know?
29:37
Speaker 3: October thirtieth, you realize this was a scam, But you've
29:42
Speaker 3: taken out loans, and what are your financial obligations to
29:46
Speaker 3: these loans?
29:47
Speaker 1: Every month? What are you owing on these loans?
29:51
Speaker 2: Ah? I see one of them, I have to make
29:54
Speaker 2: a payment of seven hundred and some change. Another one
29:58
Speaker 2: is six hundred and some change. Another one that's four
30:01
Speaker 2: hundred and some change. So by the time I get
30:05
Speaker 2: through with that, that's almost my entire pension and Social Security,
30:11
Speaker 2: and out of that I'll still have to pay. I'm
30:14
Speaker 2: still paying on this house at the rate of just
30:18
Speaker 2: over a thousand dollars a month.
30:19
Speaker 1: It's a lot of money.
30:21
Speaker 2: So basically I am skinning by the freezers are emptying out.
30:28
Speaker 2: Last night's dinner was a suit that my wife had
30:31
Speaker 2: made when she was feeling good and had been in
30:34
Speaker 2: the freezer.
30:36
Speaker 1: So needless to say, this has put you in a
30:38
Speaker 1: difficult financial position.
30:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it tears my gut up. The
30:44
Speaker 2: other Friday night, I couldn't make myself go to sleep.
30:50
Speaker 2: I ended up, you know, zoning out in front of
30:53
Speaker 2: the television until almost five o'clock in the morning. And
30:57
Speaker 2: then the next morning I got up and texted some
31:00
Speaker 2: friends that wanted me to come to a game day
31:03
Speaker 2: where there would be you know, food and fellowship and
31:06
Speaker 2: all of the other good stuff that senior people don't
31:10
Speaker 2: tend to get enough of, in which I have a
31:13
Speaker 2: tendency to avoid on days when I'm feeling the fun.
31:17
Speaker 2: And so I spend most of Saturday in my phone
31:22
Speaker 2: trying to figure out if I could change anything.
31:25
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you I mean, I totally understand that
31:29
Speaker 1: the reality is the local police department probably can't do anything,
31:32
Speaker 1: but I am curious if you made any reports to
31:35
Speaker 1: law enforcement about the scam or contact at anyone.
31:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. I filled out the complaint that's online for Colorado
31:45
Speaker 2: Springs Police Department.
31:47
Speaker 1: Did anyone get back to you?
31:49
Speaker 3: No, you have still tried to find a way to
31:54
Speaker 3: get some of this money back. Can you talk to
31:59
Speaker 3: us about that.
32:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know the first thing is going to
32:04
Speaker 2: happen is it's going to sound like it's a scam.
32:14
Speaker 3: This was a really difficult part of our conversation with Chancey.
32:18
Speaker 3: Hannah and I are often speaking to someone about a
32:20
Speaker 3: difficult time in their life, but it's usually something that
32:23
Speaker 3: is more or less behind them, something they're reflecting on.
32:27
Speaker 3: And then we realized that this might not be the
32:30
Speaker 3: case with Chancy, that this was actually ongoing chance He
32:34
Speaker 3: had already told us about Isabella, who had ghosted him
32:37
Speaker 3: after stealing his retirement savings and tens of thousands more
32:42
Speaker 3: money that Chancey was still on the hook for to
32:44
Speaker 3: the banks that he'd taken out loans from. But then
32:48
Speaker 3: he mentioned that he was attempting to recover this money,
32:51
Speaker 3: and he warned us, it's going to sound like a scam.
32:55
Speaker 3: Chancey was still in the thick of it.
32:58
Speaker 2: A person contact me on WhatsApp and said, have you
33:03
Speaker 2: been scammed? And I looked her up and so forth,
33:07
Speaker 2: and she was just a regular user of WhatsApp, And
33:12
Speaker 2: I said, yes, I have. She says, well, your name
33:16
Speaker 2: came up and she showed me a list that was
33:20
Speaker 2: apparently pulled from the dark Web that listed me amongst
33:25
Speaker 2: other victims. Not only that this lady's name was on
33:30
Speaker 2: that list, my name was on the list and contact information.
33:36
Speaker 2: And that's why she got in touch with me, was
33:38
Speaker 2: because she found out I had a WhatsApp connection and
33:42
Speaker 2: she wanted to know if I'd been scammed. She says, well,
33:46
Speaker 2: we've got a group that we're putting together, and we
33:50
Speaker 2: have made contact with a cybersecurity person, but we can't
33:55
Speaker 2: say anything about who this person is because it would
33:59
Speaker 2: be dangerous.
34:01
Speaker 3: And when you say you went about looking her up,
34:04
Speaker 3: how did you look her up?
34:06
Speaker 2: Well, WhatsApp will give you a start, and then I
34:09
Speaker 2: was able to track backwards from that to your Facebook page,
34:13
Speaker 2: and then I was able to track backwards from that
34:15
Speaker 2: to your email.
34:16
Speaker 1: Can I ask why she uses WhatsApp.
34:21
Speaker 2: Well, whatsappens pretty good program, I mean Telegram. Both of
34:27
Speaker 2: those are so much faster than Google messages or even
34:32
Speaker 2: meta messages. They both supposedly have this super encryption on
34:39
Speaker 2: them so that nobody can see what you're doing except
34:43
Speaker 2: the person that you see.
34:44
Speaker 1: It right, which, like you know, is great if you're
34:47
Speaker 1: a journalist or if you're messaging from another country, for example,
34:52
Speaker 1: like I message people in other countries on WhatsApp, and
34:55
Speaker 1: so I know a lot of people use what'sapp. But
34:57
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting that the encryption goes both ways, right,
35:01
Speaker 1: Like it's secure, but also it's actually really impossible to
35:05
Speaker 1: track someone down, that's true, and verify who they are
35:09
Speaker 1: because of the encryption. So the catch twenty two with
35:13
Speaker 1: WhatsApp is that the person is untraceable. So if this
35:16
Speaker 1: lady goes off the map or goes to you, there's
35:19
Speaker 1: no way to find her.
35:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
35:23
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering why she would not feel comfortable or
35:28
Speaker 1: if she would feel comfortable messaging you over Gmail or
35:31
Speaker 1: over just text messaging. Why that would be an issue?
35:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I got the opinion that she
35:43
Speaker 2: is even less technologically sophisticated that I'm not.
35:50
Speaker 3: What do you make of someone who's maybe not super
35:53
Speaker 3: tech savvy taking the time to download an app to
35:57
Speaker 3: correspond with people on and reaching out to people that
36:01
Speaker 3: like sort of networking online with people whose name was
36:04
Speaker 3: pulled off the dark web.
36:06
Speaker 1: Or even understanding how to access the dark web.
36:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, she said, She admitted she did not bully,
36:13
Speaker 2: she did not pull the reports. She shared. I didn't
36:16
Speaker 2: ask her enough questions to be able to say where
36:18
Speaker 2: she got it from.
36:20
Speaker 3: So she reaches out and she says, I found your
36:23
Speaker 3: name on the dark web, or someone has found it
36:25
Speaker 3: and sent it to me. You have been scammed. I
36:28
Speaker 3: too have been scammed, and I know a group of people,
36:32
Speaker 3: and we're working with someone who can help us. But
36:34
Speaker 3: I can't tell you who he is because it's dangerous,
36:37
Speaker 3: right And Hannah, and I have no judgment about your
36:40
Speaker 3: headspace or any of that. It's more a question of
36:43
Speaker 3: you've already been sort of duped by this last person.
36:48
Speaker 3: And it sounds strange, right, like I'm reaching out to
36:52
Speaker 3: you again, a total stranger, reaching out with this intention
36:57
Speaker 3: of helping you, and we're working with someone who is
37:01
Speaker 3: named You can't know, Like, there's just a lot of
37:03
Speaker 3: sort of odd, odd things about this. Why do you
37:07
Speaker 3: think that it sounds like that hasn't given you a
37:10
Speaker 3: lot of pause?
37:12
Speaker 2: The thing that I'm seeing because the more I read
37:17
Speaker 2: about it and everything, law enforcement doesn't know how to
37:20
Speaker 2: handle it. They don't have any clue what it's going
37:25
Speaker 2: to take to stop this kind of theft. If people
37:30
Speaker 2: are robbing houses or burglarizing houses, they tell you to
37:34
Speaker 2: put bars on the window, but nobody has a clue
37:37
Speaker 2: about what to do about catching cyber criminals. The number
37:41
Speaker 2: of cyber criminals who actually get put into jail is
37:47
Speaker 2: very small.
37:49
Speaker 3: So this person reaches out to you on what's up
37:51
Speaker 3: and says, you've been scammed, and we've been scammed, and
37:55
Speaker 3: we know someone who can help. But they're dangerous. You
37:58
Speaker 3: can't know their real name.
38:00
Speaker 2: They're not dangerous, they are in danger.
38:02
Speaker 3: They're in danger. Okay, they're in danger. Can you tell
38:06
Speaker 3: us about the person that they're talking about, the nickname
38:09
Speaker 3: that they go by, and how they're going to get
38:11
Speaker 3: people's money back.
38:13
Speaker 2: Actually there's no name attached. There is a phone number, which,
38:17
Speaker 2: of course, in order to subscribe to what's apped you
38:20
Speaker 2: have to have. Instead, the icon that's attached to that
38:24
Speaker 2: phone number looks a little bit like a let's say,
38:29
Speaker 2: a twenty something gamer or one of those people that
38:34
Speaker 2: stereotypes will tell us is probably going to be involved
38:38
Speaker 2: in computers.
38:40
Speaker 3: That's what I'm trying to figure out is you have
38:42
Speaker 3: been told that this person has gotten money back from
38:48
Speaker 3: people who were scammed the same way that you were.
38:51
Speaker 3: That is what they have told you, But Isabella told
38:56
Speaker 3: you a lot of things that probably weren't true, and
39:00
Speaker 3: you're taking people that you meet on WhatsApp at their word,
39:04
Speaker 3: and that to me is concerning because it's a little
39:10
Speaker 3: bit of the if it's too good to be true,
39:13
Speaker 3: then maybe it is. It doesn't pass the smell test
39:17
Speaker 3: for me. But one of the reasons I say that
39:19
Speaker 3: is that these scammers are professionals at what they do,
39:25
Speaker 3: and they're not usually working alone. And so I think
39:29
Speaker 3: one possibility is that there's multiple departments within an organization
39:34
Speaker 3: of people who are scamming people online and they say, Okay,
39:39
Speaker 3: we've scammed this person. Now we're going to pass them
39:42
Speaker 3: to you, and you're going to come in and say
39:44
Speaker 3: where you scammed, I can help. And I don't think
39:47
Speaker 3: that's uncommon that they sort of pass people off to
39:50
Speaker 3: different areas of their network, and it's something I think
39:55
Speaker 3: you should be really cautious about. As we spoke with Chance,
40:00
Speaker 3: we tried to understand both the mechanics of what this
40:03
Speaker 3: person was telling him on WhatsApp and at the same
40:06
Speaker 3: time gently warned him that it did not sound legitimate
40:10
Speaker 3: to us.
40:12
Speaker 1: And so, what is the structure here as far as
40:15
Speaker 1: what money you're putting in.
40:17
Speaker 2: He gets paid entirely on what he recovers and it's
40:21
Speaker 2: only eight percent.
40:22
Speaker 1: So has he recovered your money? Is that why you've
40:26
Speaker 1: given money?
40:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has recovered ninety one thousand so far. Now
40:31
Speaker 2: we can't move it back to my bank until he
40:33
Speaker 2: finishes the rest of it. Because remember it's the positioning
40:37
Speaker 2: that lets you be able to reach out and to
40:39
Speaker 2: go to the next level.
40:41
Speaker 1: So he's recovering your money not by going after the scammers,
40:45
Speaker 1: but by investing money.
40:48
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, that's the dangerous part. He's actually
40:52
Speaker 2: going in through the back door of the scammer's own programs.
40:57
Speaker 2: That's his expertise. Is he slips in through the back
41:01
Speaker 2: door and pulls the data that looks like my money
41:06
Speaker 2: and has my label on it. And when he finishes,
41:11
Speaker 2: he will have pulled back the money that I invested,
41:14
Speaker 2: plus the money that was put out there on that
41:17
Speaker 2: bogus income tax scam.
41:20
Speaker 1: So so far he's recovered ninety one thousand. You can't
41:24
Speaker 1: access this money. But have you paid an eight percent
41:27
Speaker 1: fee to him?
41:29
Speaker 2: He has received nothing.
41:30
Speaker 1: And do you have to pay anything until he gets
41:33
Speaker 1: all your money back to you?
41:34
Speaker 2: Correct?
41:36
Speaker 1: What platform Is this all happening on this platform?
41:40
Speaker 2: Is happening on cryptohack dot com?
41:44
Speaker 1: Cryptohack dot com.
41:46
Speaker 3: Well, I just went to cryptohack dot com and it's like, uh,
41:52
Speaker 3: has a go dot e link at the top.
41:55
Speaker 2: It's crypto hack.
41:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it doesn't to me.
42:01
Speaker 2: Look hack take the see yut.
42:07
Speaker 3: Okay, it's coming up potential fishing scam risk. As you
42:14
Speaker 3: can probably tell, Hannah and I are pretty convinced that
42:18
Speaker 3: this is another scam, and that's what we told Chancey,
42:21
Speaker 3: and we put it as kindly and as plainly as
42:24
Speaker 3: we could. In moments he seemed to believe us, but
42:27
Speaker 3: in others he tried to explain, to rationalize, and I
42:31
Speaker 3: get it. The promise of a vigilante computer was, however,
42:34
Speaker 3: strange offers hope and what is he supposed to do.
42:39
Speaker 3: He's on the verge of losing everything and no one
42:41
Speaker 3: can help.
42:43
Speaker 1: I think the thing that makes me nervous when I
42:45
Speaker 1: hear about people reaching out to you again on WhatsApp,
42:49
Speaker 1: especially with sort of coded language like they could be
42:52
Speaker 1: in trouble or it could be dangerous. That sounds like
42:56
Speaker 1: another scam to me. And maybe it's not, but I
42:59
Speaker 1: would I hate to see you get scammed again.
43:02
Speaker 2: But what would a person say? What script would a
43:06
Speaker 2: person be able to follow that doesn't sound like scammed
43:10
Speaker 2: if it was legitimate.
43:12
Speaker 1: If they're legitimate, they should be traceable. If it's a
43:16
Speaker 1: person who is a technological genius is able to find
43:22
Speaker 1: money that's been scammed. They should be able to have
43:26
Speaker 1: a website. You should be able to call them. You
43:28
Speaker 1: should be able to know the name of their business.
43:31
Speaker 2: All sounds logical.
43:33
Speaker 1: If there's ever a scenario in which they ask you
43:37
Speaker 1: to put in any money down before seeing money back,
43:41
Speaker 1: that is not going to be true. And you could say, well,
43:45
Speaker 1: what if it's real? But the thing is, what if
43:46
Speaker 1: it's not. If it's not real, what would you do.
43:51
Speaker 2: My dad was a minister for all the time I
43:54
Speaker 2: was growing up. He later did other things, but he
43:56
Speaker 2: never quit being a minister. Do you understand what I'm saying. Yeah. However,
44:02
Speaker 2: the whole premise of his whole livelihood and his whole
44:08
Speaker 2: philosophy of the world was based on the idea of faith.
44:13
Speaker 2: You know, it's to the place where it would almost
44:17
Speaker 2: be more comfortable to just coil up into the corner
44:20
Speaker 2: and just get you know, and I look out at
44:26
Speaker 2: the folks who are just a few blocks away from here.
44:29
Speaker 2: They sleep on the bench that's up against the fence,
44:33
Speaker 2: but it's out of the north wind. And if I
44:37
Speaker 2: don't keep fighting, what do I do? Where I'm at
44:42
Speaker 2: right now? The next step is going to probably be bankruptcy.
44:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know we've sort of been giving some pushback
44:52
Speaker 1: to you. You know, I just want to be clear
44:54
Speaker 1: that we only say that because we want like the
44:57
Speaker 1: best for you. And I'm so sorry that this happened
45:01
Speaker 1: to you, and I think it's happening to more and
45:03
Speaker 1: more people. And it doesn't mean that you're a fool
45:06
Speaker 1: or whatever you said earlier, because.
45:07
Speaker 2: Oh I'm not just a.
45:11
Speaker 1: Well these operations have become so sophisticated, truly.
45:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, Andy, breakitis. It's all over the place.
45:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, And as we've talked about, there's not currently I
45:26
Speaker 1: think there will be in the future. Our law enforcement
45:29
Speaker 1: agencies are going to have to catch up to this
45:31
Speaker 1: at some point. We're going to have to figure out
45:34
Speaker 1: how to combat this. But the technology has advanced, and
45:38
Speaker 1: the scammers have advanced so much faster than our institutions have,
45:43
Speaker 1: and they don't know what to do. Yeah, And I
45:46
Speaker 1: hope that you, you know, go to the barbecues and
45:50
Speaker 1: see people, and I know what it's like to feel
45:52
Speaker 1: depressed and want to like pull yourself up inside. But
45:56
Speaker 1: it always I find helps when I go and connect
45:59
Speaker 1: with people in real life.
46:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really appreciate your time and vulnerability today, and
46:07
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry for what you're going through.
46:09
Speaker 2: Oh, survive long enough you get to learn everything.
46:13
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for speaking with us. Chancey.
46:17
Speaker 1: We really appreciate it. What an interview, Patia.
46:26
Speaker 3: We've never and I mean we must have done hundreds
46:29
Speaker 3: of interviews together at that point, never anything like that.
46:34
Speaker 1: No, it was really like interesting to try to navigate
46:38
Speaker 1: and you know, get information. But also I think both
46:44
Speaker 1: of us, like our alarm bells were going off as
46:47
Speaker 1: we heard about this, you know, new attempt to get
46:51
Speaker 1: his money back with another stranger. I think both of
46:54
Speaker 1: us were very concerned and are concerned still that that
46:58
Speaker 1: is a scam. Yeah.
47:01
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean when I first came across chancy story,
47:06
Speaker 3: I was under the impression that he was fully aware
47:10
Speaker 3: that he had been scammed and was now trying to
47:15
Speaker 3: you know, kind of let people know on I actually
47:17
Speaker 3: found Chancy on Facebook that he was in financial turmoil,
47:21
Speaker 3: and I reached out to him to try to find
47:24
Speaker 3: out how it happened. Yeah, it was a surprise to
47:28
Speaker 3: learn that his you know, attempt to recover money was happening,
47:33
Speaker 3: and then we had.
47:34
Speaker 1: To address it. Yeah, it's so tricky. Yeah, I thought
47:38
Speaker 1: he handled it really well. He did. What an awkward
47:41
Speaker 1: thing to hear and a tough conversation to have, and
47:46
Speaker 1: he was really receptive. And it's interesting because he was
47:51
Speaker 1: really when we were talking about the first scam. I
47:55
Speaker 1: think we probably cut a bunch of these out of
47:58
Speaker 1: the episodes, but he said a lot of self deprecating
48:02
Speaker 1: things about how dumb he was and all that stuff,
48:04
Speaker 1: and it was just like, you know, we tried to
48:07
Speaker 1: really emphasize to him that that's not true and that
48:10
Speaker 1: this happens to a lot of people, that it's happening
48:12
Speaker 1: more and more. So it's clear that he felt really
48:15
Speaker 1: bad about it, obviously, and it has put him in
48:19
Speaker 1: a terrible financial position that no one wants to be
48:25
Speaker 1: when they're retired. I mean, it's just horrible. And so
48:28
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's some level of desperation of
48:32
Speaker 1: like no one is available to help me, law enforcement
48:35
Speaker 1: is not available to help me. They can't do anything.
48:37
Speaker 1: So he's holding on to hope that this new person
48:40
Speaker 1: reaching out to him is real. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
48:44
Speaker 3: It's also just this world of online banking and trading
48:49
Speaker 3: was all new to him, and that I think left
48:53
Speaker 3: him very vulnerable. And we spoke a lot with Chancy
48:58
Speaker 3: during the interview, and I've spoken with him a few
49:00
Speaker 3: times since. And despite the sort of awkward moment of
49:04
Speaker 3: having to confront that the scam was still happening, Chancey
49:07
Speaker 3: doesn't want this to happen to anyone else, and he
49:10
Speaker 3: is in full support of us releasing this.
49:13
Speaker 1: Yes, yes he is, which is really nice. I mean,
49:16
Speaker 1: we wouldn't want to do that. We wouldn't want to
49:18
Speaker 1: release it if that were not the case. Yeah, of
49:20
Speaker 1: course not. I wanted people to you heard it from us.
49:24
Speaker 1: Chancey's on board, and it feels purposeful in sharing the story.
49:28
Speaker 1: And yeah, so I spoke with Chancey a couple of
49:32
Speaker 1: times after our interview, as you know, Hannah, But for
49:36
Speaker 1: listeners who might be concerned about him, Hannah and I
49:40
Speaker 1: put together a list of resources, local resources and organizations
49:44
Speaker 1: that might be able to help him in his current
49:47
Speaker 1: financial state. And yeah, I mean Chancey has had to
49:51
Speaker 1: in recent weeks sell his only vehicle, his means of
49:55
Speaker 1: transportation now as an electric tricycle, which obviously in the
49:59
Speaker 1: color Oh Winter, will not be usable for him. We
50:03
Speaker 1: didn't learn this in the interview. We learned it after.
50:06
Speaker 3: But he did give thousands of dollars to this vigilante
50:11
Speaker 3: computer whiz person and the hopes that that would result
50:15
Speaker 3: in getting his larger sums of money back. And he
50:18
Speaker 3: found that money by pulling it out of his IRA,
50:21
Speaker 3: So now he has taxes on that money. So yeah,
50:24
Speaker 3: it's definitely one of those stories where it's like, Wow,
50:27
Speaker 3: there's no save the cat. This is a really sad story.
50:31
Speaker 3: And I think the point is that it could happen
50:34
Speaker 3: to anyone. And I know just from our emails that
50:37
Speaker 3: we receive at the Knife, we've had multiple people already
50:40
Speaker 3: reach out and say, I think my mom's being scammed.
50:44
Speaker 3: I think this person I know is being scammed, and
50:46
Speaker 3: I can't convince them. We got this after we released
50:49
Speaker 3: the episode about Donna Nelson.
50:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, Donna Nelson from Australia who was wrapped up in
50:55
Speaker 1: a scam and ended up being arrested abroad because she
51:00
Speaker 1: knowingly brought a legal substances across a border. We talked
51:04
Speaker 1: about like how much of this Chancey interview to release.
51:08
Speaker 1: But I really think that understanding the situation, hearing the
51:12
Speaker 1: situation is important because he's not alone. This has happened
51:16
Speaker 1: to so many people, and Chancey is a smart guy.
51:19
Speaker 1: He was a journalist when he was younger, he was
51:21
Speaker 1: an educator for years. Like it's very clear speaking with
51:25
Speaker 1: him and meeting him virtually that he's a totally capable
51:29
Speaker 1: and intelligent person, you know, And it's like a perfect
51:33
Speaker 1: storm of things that happened in his life. Isolation, grief
51:37
Speaker 1: of your partner, of your spouse is such a destabilizing thing,
51:41
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of people who find
51:43
Speaker 1: themselves isolated and alone and having someone reach out and
51:49
Speaker 1: make that contact is so powerful, like really, and you
51:53
Speaker 1: can see it when you talk to him. It's more
51:56
Speaker 1: powerful than an institution warning you this might be a
51:59
Speaker 1: scam or you know, because it's like human connection is
52:03
Speaker 1: what we all want. Yeah, So it's just like it's
52:06
Speaker 1: good to be aware that this can happen, and like
52:09
Speaker 1: something needs to be done eventually, like somehow, like we're
52:13
Speaker 1: going to have to figure out how to warn people
52:15
Speaker 1: better or how to help people that this happens to totally.
52:19
Speaker 3: I mean, this whole scam about wrong number text messages,
52:23
Speaker 3: it's a thing that's happening more and more. I read
52:27
Speaker 3: in a CNBC article that said that AI is being
52:31
Speaker 3: utilized by these online scammers to provide access to personal information,
52:36
Speaker 3: and that one in four Americans have received these wrong
52:40
Speaker 3: number texts that are then you know, first they're verifying
52:44
Speaker 3: that someone's at that number, and then they're followed by
52:48
Speaker 3: scam attempts, and they can find out a lot about
52:51
Speaker 3: you really quickly. Also, with the help of AI, they
52:53
Speaker 3: can find your social media accounts and that probably gives
52:57
Speaker 3: them information about how to connect with you. And for
53:01
Speaker 3: all of these reasons and more, that is why I
53:04
Speaker 3: don't think anyone like Chancy should feel ashamed or foolish.
53:07
Speaker 3: It's like this is getting really advanced really quickly. And
53:12
Speaker 3: you know, although I definitely I think probably know a
53:15
Speaker 3: little more than maybe just an average person about online
53:19
Speaker 3: scams because of the work we do, I hadn't heard
53:22
Speaker 3: of this particular one about the wrong number. I get
53:26
Speaker 3: strange scam texts that are like are you coming over
53:28
Speaker 3: where's dinner tonight? Like strange, Like I know I don't
53:32
Speaker 3: have dinner plans. I don't do anything, but like this
53:35
Speaker 3: specific one. And so if you're Chancy, he's a friendly person.
53:40
Speaker 3: I know it's like within his nature to respond. And yeah,
53:44
Speaker 3: Chancy was so kind and vulnerable and behind us sharing
53:48
Speaker 3: his story, and yeah, talk to your friends and relatives
53:51
Speaker 3: if you think that they might be at risk of
53:55
Speaker 3: being victimized by one of these scammers, because they're not
53:58
Speaker 3: just showing up in online eating profiles anymore. There's all
54:02
Speaker 3: kinds of sort of innocuous ways that they're starting to
54:04
Speaker 3: reach out.
54:06
Speaker 1: It always changes, I mean, even like I do that now,
54:09
Speaker 1: Like I'm like, okay, my protocol is if I get
54:12
Speaker 1: something and I'm unsure whether it's a text or an email,
54:15
Speaker 1: I always show someone else. I'm like, what do you
54:17
Speaker 1: think of this? Like is this weird? Should I respond
54:19
Speaker 1: to this? I got one the other day and I
54:23
Speaker 1: almost deleted it. It was from a text from an
54:25
Speaker 1: unknown number and it said something in there that was
54:29
Speaker 1: so like reference podcast work that you and I had
54:33
Speaker 1: done in our previous podcast, and I was like, wait, okay,
54:36
Speaker 1: this actually could be a person that I you know,
54:40
Speaker 1: I don't have their number, and that was the only
54:41
Speaker 1: reason I replied. And it did end up being someone
54:44
Speaker 1: that I know, My god, but I was almost like immediate,
54:48
Speaker 1: I got a text from an unknown number. Block this
54:51
Speaker 1: is a scam. But like you and I talk about,
54:54
Speaker 1: in years to come, the scams are going to get
54:56
Speaker 1: so elaborate, like what are we going to do, like
54:59
Speaker 1: when we're retired, She's just going to be full holograms
55:02
Speaker 1: of like you know, and I don't want someone being like, well,
55:05
Speaker 1: she deserved it because she's dumb. It's like, no, I know,
55:09
Speaker 1: I want us all to look out for each other
55:11
Speaker 1: and trying to help each other, you know, totally.
55:13
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I have a mortgage like a
55:16
Speaker 3: lot of people, so that I have homeowners insurance, and
55:18
Speaker 3: I get letters all the time that look like official
55:22
Speaker 3: documents from my insurance provider that are not and that's wild. Yeah,
55:28
Speaker 3: and it's like I know not to call, but and
55:30
Speaker 3: I think maybe those are just like sales tactics or something,
55:34
Speaker 3: but they're very confusing. And I could see someone it's
55:37
Speaker 3: like at risk of losing on your policy or whatever,
55:41
Speaker 3: and you're like, wait a minute, what's going on. It's
55:43
Speaker 3: all happening, all kinds of ways. Now, everyone look out
55:47
Speaker 3: for each other and double check. If you have any questions,
55:49
Speaker 3: just ask someone, do you think this is real? Yeah,
55:52
Speaker 3: that's so important to let people know what's going on.
55:55
Speaker 2: Yeah.
55:56
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we have let Chancey know Pays you
56:00
Speaker 1: been in contact with him multiple times and have let
56:03
Speaker 1: him know that we are available if he ever needs
56:05
Speaker 1: to reach out. We've sent him resources and we wish
56:10
Speaker 1: him the best. Of course, thanks.
56:12
Speaker 3: Everyone for listening. If you have a story for us,
56:17
Speaker 3: we would love to hear it. Our email is The
56:19
Speaker 3: Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or you can follow us
56:22
Speaker 3: on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at
56:25
Speaker 3: the Knife Podcast.
56:26
Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
56:29
Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Paytia Eten.
56:32
Speaker 3: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
56:35
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
56:38
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
56:40
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
56:43
Speaker 3: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
56:44
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.