Latest / Authentic Living / Blame Shifting and Capitalizing on Fear with Dr. Karyne Messina (Part II)

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Blame Shifting and Capitalizing on Fear with Dr. Karyne Messina (Part II) · Authentic Living

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  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Our interview last week was so good that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
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  If you missed last week, you'll find the link in the show notes.
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  It's not mandatory that you listen, but we wanna make sure that you don't miss out on this
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  amazing conversation.
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  Everyone, it's, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week to authenticate with Roxanne.
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  I have a guess that I've had before and, it's psychologist and psychoanalyst, Karen Messina.
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  And Karen brings a perspective that I think we need as the average person to explore further.
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  Karen was, I believe one of my podcasts is about well, almost a year and a half to almost
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  2 years ago.
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  And we talked a lot about kind of the space we're in as as people with everything that
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  we've been going through in the last couple of years and Parents just released a new book, on,
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  you know, the the concept of where are we?
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  Where is the power power that is and the imbalances and some of the, blame shifting
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  that's occurring.
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  And I'm gonna let Karen tell you the full title and we're just gonna have juicy conversation
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  about this book which is, it sounds like a spectacular piece of work.
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  So Karen, thanks again for, being here with us.
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  Well, thank you, Roxanne.
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  It's wonderful to be back talking with you.
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  I I just love the last podcast we did.
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  So I'm really looking forward to this one.
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  If that's the case then and we're talking about being it being cultish, and there's many
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  populous like you said, with with your research for this book, there's many, it was a, you
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  said, about 10 to 12 leaders that are of this genre.
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  I'm gonna use the word genre.
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  Right?
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  Maybe the incorrect term.
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  So with mindset then, let's go to mindset, right, because we know where we're at.
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  We're in fear based.
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  We've been coming off, and we're still in COVID.
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  A lot of people are petrified and I'm I'm often still shocked Karen.
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  How petrified people are just to even do basic things anymore.
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  So when we take that fear and then we put it in a populist context, what does that do to the
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  mindset of the average person?
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  Well, I think that there are I think there are a few things.
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  And and by the way, I I I just wanna clarify.
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  There are many populist leaders.
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  I think I I read the other day that I'm sorry if this was misleading.
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  I think I read something about the 46 populist leaders around the world.
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  I was I I had focused on in my in my book.
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  I believe there are 15 Okay.
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  Around the world, but there are many more than 15.
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  But those are the sort of the ones that came out and and grabbed me.
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  So those are the ones that I wrote about.
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  What does a person do?
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  Well, a person is either in denial, and they just push politics away.
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  Is that what I deal with it?
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  I just don't go there.
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  Can't do it.
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  Or they take sides.
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  They, there are a lot of people and whether you're, pro trump or anti trump.
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  This this country, for example, you of the United States is polarized in a major way.
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  So that's another thing people do with their anxiety.
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  They join up with one side or the other.
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  There are, I mean, obviously a lot of people who have have joined, with Trump, I think that
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  the the elections, the election results we're seeing from state primaries have shown that
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  there are a lot of people who are voting for Republicans, and a lot of this republicans have
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  been supported by Trump.
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  So That's just, an asset example of what people do joy join with one side or the other.
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  So when we look at it and we think of what's happening in the world and the global economy,
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  Right?
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  We're trying to recover now.
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  We're talking a lot about, you know, leaders are having to obviously run companies in in
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  this in this context.
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  Well, how how does it affect a leader?
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  Like, I'm I'm listening to you, and I'm like, oh, wow.
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  This this is big.
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  And we can pretend that politics and business aren't, you know, they don't have a combination
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  effect, but they do.
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  So from a global perspective, we're coming off with the our our economists have been shut
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  down.
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  We know we have things like the great attrition happening, or the great resignation.
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  There's a lot, you know, there's the war in Ukraine.
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  Now we're seeing things like the resurgence of COVID again and and monkey.
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  Like, a lot of things coming out of character fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.
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  Right?
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  Mhmm.
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  And we gotta we're gonna try to, you know, start to go back and run our businesses and,
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  you know, try to make sense of all this stuff.
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  What how do you think this is affected people and then with the backdrop of some of the stuff
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  that you've written in the book?
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  Well, again, I think that people are denying if you're terrified, and it's a real denial is, as
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  you know, a real defense mechanism.
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  It's not that they're consciously say, okay.
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  I don't wanna deal with this.
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  We'll just put it on the side.
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  They actually don't think about it because it's too much.
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  So their mind just doesn't go there.
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  So that's one thing I think they do.
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  The other thing is that they they are just very frightened, and they're just being in their in
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  their either communities or their bubbles.
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  In a very frightened way.
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  I think people I mean, I think global warming is another thing that people are either denying
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  or they're they're a they're really scared about it.
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  So, how do you move forward in that and that sort of climate may be what you're asking.
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  So much fear.
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  Yeah.
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  You can deny it, but it doesn't work for everybody.
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  So and and it probably is better if it doesn't work because then you're more likely to do
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  something about it.
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  Hard to know exactly what to do.
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  I think that there are a couple of things.
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  They're hypothetically, it's it's good to listen to the other side.
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  And, you probably are familiar with the word mentalized, but I've recast that in other I've
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  used other phrases for that, which is listening to people in an atmosphere of respect without
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  judging that no matter what they say, just to listen to the other side of their perspectives.
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  I don't know if you've heard of BRAVer Angels, but it's a group that was started in 2016 or 17
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  by Bill Dorothy, and I think there was a co founder as well.
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  The idea was to get people to sit down and talk red state and blue state people to talk about
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  issues and to try to find common ground.
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  And I've been to several of their their meetings, and they're it's very impressive.
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  I did I was prized that Republicans and Democrats could sit down in a room and actually
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  listen to each other and not, cast dispersions about the other person's point of view and
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  could could even find some common ground.
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  Whether we're past that point or not, I don't know.
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  I don't know if we can we can still sit in the same room and do that, but I think that's
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  optimal if it's possible.
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  The main thing is we have to face this.
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  We have to keep talking about it.
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  It's like trauma.
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  When trauma happens in a family or to an individual, it's very it's it's very negative
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  to just push it aside and pretend it didn't happen.
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  It has to be dealt with, so we need to keep talking about it.
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  I believe that Getting involved is very important.
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  Getting involved in local politics starting with, well, anything that's locally.
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  And it even could start before getting involved in public policy.
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  Started something in your own community, whether it's just to get together with
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  neighbors and friends just to talk about about things, just to hear people's point of view,
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  but to stay involved, I think, is is very important.
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  I I it reminds me of something that I heard on the news last night.
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  There was a a young person.
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  He's really quite young.
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  I I don't know how young.
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  I don't think they said, but, Gen X, I think they well, it was very young.
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  We're probably in his twenties, and he got elected as a Florida state representative, and
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  the people who are the the hosts of the show were really excited about the fact that that he
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  was so young and he's involved in in politics.
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  So, getting involved in some way and to stay vigilant about what's going on.
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  I think are very important things.
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  So I think I think that's very important because I think most people say they throw up
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  their hands, and they're like, you know, look at all the things that are happening.
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  But really, if you want, if you want change, you have to do what you can do, like, quite
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  literally in your little backyard, you know, your little community, your little village,
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  wherever you are, to make sense of this.
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  So with people that are thinking saying, Karen, you know, this is all well and good.
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  You know?
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  How does it affect businesses?
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  This, you know, like, now we're trying to go back and and just live normal lives and, you
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  know, payer bills and not be worried about going out and, you know, picking up things.
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  People are traveling again.
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  Those types of things.
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  How do you think that this this fear mindset has been affecting international business?
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  I think some of this is to be determined.
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  I'm not sure that anybody really knows the answer to that because there have been so many
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  shifts, that's there are so many people leaving the workforce So what's happened to those
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  people?
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  I mean, where are they getting their resources?
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  Maybe a lot of them have shifted to some other kind of work, but That's something that I don't
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  think we're gonna know about, like, the workforce and all the people who have retired.
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  I I mean, there's just take teaching, for example.
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  There's such a in the United States, there's an overwhelming shortest shortage of teachers How
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  how is that gonna affect us in the coming years?
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  That's something that I don't think anybody knows.
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  The other thing is working remotely.
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  Is that something that's going to stay with us, or is it not going to stay with us?
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  So if you have a business and it's in, just say, business district, and now people are
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  working remotely How is your business gonna be affected?
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  So people are going to have to change.
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  I think I think my answer would be if I if I only had a a word or a phrase or a sentence to
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  answer this.
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  I think people are gonna have to make changes in the way they do things.
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  The way they operate their businesses, the way they send their children to school.
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  For example, parents may really need to supplement what kids are learning in school.
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  I hadn't thought of that before.
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  I just thought of it right now, but araspake need to pitch in and and teach their children
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  some things that they're not getting school because the school doesn't have a social
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  studies teacher.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  And then social studies is, or history is being developed right in front of them as well to to
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  get that discerning kind of perspective where you have open conversations.
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  And I think, you know, when I think of, what's been happening in the world and with the
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  anxiety and depression, just going through the roof.
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  You're right.
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  People are reverberating and and fear.
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  And you know what?
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  What happens when we reverberate in fear?
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  We over overtax every every, org every system.
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  And then, of course, if you're depression or anxious, you're gonna skew perceptions of
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  things and then you're gonna, you know, live more of a limited kind of situation.
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  And and then potentially would would see a lot more just mental health, but also physical
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  health because physical health and mental health is really, you know, a marriage of both.
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  So, you know, clearly, I what I what I like about what you're saying about the courageous
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  angels?
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  Is that what it's called?
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  BRAver Angels.
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  BRAver.
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  Is that, yes, there aren't a lot of differences, but I think the last couple of
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  years, Karen, I think it's forced us to look.
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  We could kinda we were tripping along and pretending everything was okay.
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  Right.
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  And now we we can no longer do that.
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  You said, like, global warming, you know, the war in Ukraine immigration, you know, diversity
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  and inclusion on on every realm, not just race.
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  There's there's all these, you know, hot pockets with them.
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  We kinda pushing away And now it's like, woah, we can't okay.
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  We've been, you know, gliding and now no more because, you know, in the universe is saying,
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  we're we have to sit stop and start to look at the, you know, diametrically opposed point of
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  use from ours and to be able to sit across like to your point and you and I being, you know,
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  psychologists, we get it that when something traumatic happens, There's no beginning middle
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  and end.
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  And really, that's where we are in the world.
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  We're in flux, and we're not we haven't put context to the last couple of years.
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  Right?
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  Because it's still happening.
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  Yeah.
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  Exactly.
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  You know?
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  And so I think it's kinda it's kinda like a free floating kind of, wire where having
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  conversations, support, connection, the human things that we know are so key, least it to be
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  at the forefront right now so people could actually sit across from somebody that's so
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  different from them and understand, agree to disagree, like we always say, but to be able to
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  move on so that we can we can create the path of history together.
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  We don't know what it's gonna look like.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  You know?
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  So change is the new this has always been the new constant, but I think now it's even more
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  so.
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  Right.
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  So with, with people listening, right, and, what is it that you hope the book would do,
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  Karen, in the world?
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  I obviously say that, you know, with my books, I often think that, you know, we're leaving
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  messages behind.
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  That we felt were important enough to share with the world.
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  What is it that you hope this book will be able to when people go out and buy it?
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  And I hope that everybody goes out and, hits the link under the podcast to be able to to,
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  buy Karen's book.
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  What is it that you hope that this will achieve
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  Well, I think, thank you for that.
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  Roxanne, I think two things.
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  I think that, projective identification and blame shifting are so prevalent in our society
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  I have another book actually coming out.
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  That's a self help book that explains all the categories, where I think this comes into play,
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  and it's with bullying, mean girls, and they're not just mean girls, boys as well, with, sex
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  trafficking with domestic violence.
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  I I bad bosses.
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  I think that I have 12 or 13 or 14 categories.
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  Where this comes into play.
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  So I think it's it's it's shifting the blame, basically.
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  So I think if people understand that when somebody accuses them of something, they don't
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  just chase that on and own it.
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  If they say, let me think about it.
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  Wait a minute.
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  Mister Peterson, was that is now your boss is you have to think about how you're gonna
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  respond to a boss boss, but whether it's mister Peterson or what whether it's your husband,
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  Brad.
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  Is that we'll use Brad?
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  I'll use Brad.
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  Brad, really, that was that something I did, or is that something that you are pretty well
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  known for doing.
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  So it's not accepting.
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  If people cannot accept, if you can understand this concept of blame shifting, up and not
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  accept, the blame for something for something they didn't do.
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  That would be very satisfying to me.
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  But, yeah, that
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  I think the opposite of internalizing as well, right, because I think as an interaction, yes,
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  sometimes when you're into conflict, you know, initially, sometimes the automatic impact is to
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  internalize it within yourself, but I think in actually owning what part of it, maybe, and
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  none of us are perfect, that if you take certain responsibility your part of the
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  interaction that you know you've been culpable for.
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  That's one thing.
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  But in internalizing all of it versus kind of not taking it in and giving it back, that's
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  gonna really help with what I think we're seeing a lot of.
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  And as it is people are reverberating, you know, they're they're keeping a lot in or
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  they're worrying about the future.
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  So for from a mental health and wellness perspective.
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  I think it's also this blame shifting is a positive thing because it's gonna say, you
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  know, I I've raised my voice there with you, Karen.
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  I'm I'm so sorry, but I really didn't like that you did this, this, or this to allow that, you
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  know, that space for both people to come to a, you know, a plausible culmination of things
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  versus me me me me me, that allows if we look at the concept of the populist to to gain
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  momentum without me really kind of looking at
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  should
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  I be taking this on?
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  Because this is not about me.
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  And I think that would to get us as neutral as possible so we can proceed as healthy as
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  possible.
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  Absolutely.
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  As I've got my part, I did this.
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  And I believe you did that.
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  Let's talk about it.
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  Yes.
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  That would be a wonderful outcome.
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  Ideally.
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  And so hence, you know, the kind of work and I know that you do and with, with me, with, the
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  coaching that I do out there, it's if there's ready, ready as a need.
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  So, for anybody, like leaders that are thinking, you know, I I I wanna learn more
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  about this or for people that are wanting even to potentially, you know, work with you, 1 to 1
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  or, whether you do group programs, where where is it that care, they can get ahold of you,
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  Karen?
• 20:13
  Well, they can send me an email, which is, I don't know if you can post that any place, but
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  it's d r, like, doctor dot, and my name, k aryne, messina@gmail.com.
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  I I had the idea of of starting to do some workshops So if anybody contacts me, I I could
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  tell them about the how that, unfolds.
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  Awesome.
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  So what am I taking away?
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  You know, I often say that, I gain so much when I have these amazing guests and I think instead
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  of just accepting what what we read or what we see, you know, try to find as much information
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  even if it's diametrically opposed from your perspective because we should always try to
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  think, I think a certain way, and we are so, comfortable in our subjective reality, the way
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  we think, way we feel, but to try to look at some different information and and get
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  perspective.
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  And and to test it, whether, like Karen said, whether it's with husband, Brad, or a coworker,
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  or a friend that allows you to really develop those muscles much more.
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  And I think What we're trying all here to do is to have kind of a space in this world, where we
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  have peace of mind and, you know, what little we can do day to day within our backyard, you
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  know, never underestimate the capacity, what change you can make, as an individual as part
• 21:49
  of a a family as a part of a company or even a a part of an industry.
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  So to go out and think how am I doing what I can do to be the best version of myself.
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  So again, Karen, thanks so much for spending the time.
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  Always a pleasure.
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  You spend my mind every time we have these conversations and it it also makes me think
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  even more, what is it that I need to learn more about?
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  So for everyone, thanks again for tuning in.
• 22:16
  If you're wanting more, information on authentic leadership, either at home or at
• 22:20
  work, You just go to roxanderhodge.comforward/quiz.
• 22:24
  You'll get a really quick quiz.
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• 22:27
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• 22:29
  And, you can know what next steps you need if you needed to connect with me.
• 22:33
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• 22:39
  change.
• 22:40
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• 22:47
  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
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  An authentic living with Roxanne.