Latest / Not Right Now / I Had My Petty Boots On (And I Liked It)

Transcript

I Had My Petty Boots On (And I Liked It) · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Hey, I have three kids. They eat so much. We try to eat real food. We try to cook when we can.
• 0:10
  We try not to waste too much, 'cause it drives me nuts, and it's expensive, and also for obvious climate reasons, which is why the Mill Food Recycler changed our lives a couple years ago.
• 0:23
  It is an odorless, effortless, and fully automated food recycler. Look, we've had this thing front and center in our kitchen for, again, a couple years now it feels like, and it is just such a game changer.
• 0:37
  Way less waste, less smell, way less garbage, which by the way saves you money. No leaky bags.
• 0:44
  Look, you got peels, bones, stalks, whatever leftovers, dump them in the Mill, and Mill dries and grinds them while you sleep. Again, it doesn't smell, which I don't understand. It's sleek. It's actually sexy.
• 1:00
  Here's a question people ask: How often do you empty it? Good question. It's every three weeks. I don't know, maybe, and there's a bunch of us.
• 1:07
  Plus, there's a little app where you can control it if you want and set a schedule, and it shows you how much food your family keeps out of landfills. A delight.
• 1:15
  Look, you can get $75 off right now when you go to our special partner site. I'm gonna read you the link, but you should know it's also in the show notes, and you can just click it.
• 1:26
  It is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. That is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. I couldn't remember that, so we put it in the show notes.
• 1:44
  It's right there for you. Check it out. Huge thanks to Mill for sponsoring our work and doing the right thing, and thanks to all of you listeners for supporting our partners.
• 1:54
  [upbeat music] I will frequently say things like, "You're gonna wanna get on that bus. Let me break it down for you. You don't wanna be here on the other side at 8:00."
• 2:04
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this. We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like... TikTok time limits and the collapse of local news.
• 2:20
  Have you done your homework, and have I remembered to ask you if you've done your homework? Another existential question. It's not an advice show.
• 2:27
  It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches. And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important.
• 2:38
  You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, notrightnow.show..show.
• 2:45
  And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 2:53
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show.
• 2:58
  [upbeat music] Our guest today, we have another guest, they keep coming back, is author and journalist and memoirist Nefertiti Austin, who has written a lot of things, Motherhood So White: A Memoir of Race, Gender, and Parenting in America, and her latest is She's Just Spirited: Parenting a Neurodivergent Child and the Diagnosis That Changes Everything, something Claire and I talk about and think about all the time.
• 3:30
  She offers parents empathy and advice from her personal experience and experts in the field. Claire, why else did we get this lovely person on the phone today? Well, Nefertiti is really honest and funny.
• 3:41
  She's a California-based writer. She's also an adoptive mom, and she has a great perspective about just raising her kids with empathy and honesty, and we talk about pity boots and when you put them on.
• 3:53
  And you should listen and go check out her books because she provides a perspective on parenting that frankly is needed and we need more of, so we're happy to have her make us laugh and give us her perspective.
• 4:06
  And check out her book. Let's go talk to Nefertiti. [upbeat music] Why have a son if you can't borrow his headphones? Literally, like that's what he- Yeah, that's what they're for. Yeah.
• 4:16
  He didn't take them with him to his dorm, so apparently he didn't need them, so they're mine now. [chuckles] Nice. Yes, they are. Ah, good for you. He's, he at, he's at Howard or Spelman?
• 4:25
  Re- remind me where he's at school. Hampton. Hampton University. Yeah. Oh my God, sorry. Yeah, Spelman is a women's college. Okay. I'm in, I'm in Williamsburg. I'm about- Yeah... 20 minutes north. Love, love Hampton.
• 4:36
  I grew up playing in drum lines and music and went there for a lot of stuff. Just an incredible place. It's awesome. Oh, great, so you know. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Hampton's awesome. What year is he?
• 4:46
  Freshman. He just started- Oh... yeah, he's an architecture major. Wow. Cool. So how's it going? What's his roommate situation? What's the word? Everything's good. He's been lucky. He went to the summer program.
• 4:58
  His roommate is from Cincinnati, so summer was great. And then his current roommate, military kid, but seemed like they lived between the Carolinas and Virginia, and just nice family.
• 5:11
  He got there and very quickly got a girlfriend. I was like, "What's happening?" Hey now. Okay. So a little soon for all of that, don't you think? Oh my God. But it's okay. It's chaos. That's fun.
• 5:25
  What was it like when he was leaving? 'Cause I always hear that kids are kind of jerks right before they leave for college, but it's part of the process of separating themselves. They call it soiling the nest.
• 5:34
  Did that happen? No. He was pretty good about it. It was time. I mean, you know, I felt like I gave all that I knew to give, and so it was time to find a new mentor and all of those things, so- Right...
• 5:48
  only thing is when he c- came back after that first five weeks of freedom, it took him about a week and a half to really kind of adjust because he had been doing his own thing and no one was telling him what to do.
• 5:58
  And his sister was on his nerves, and I had to remind him she's 12. Mm-hmm. You left. You've grown up a lot, but she's still 12, so. Yeah.
• 6:06
  I remember that very well 'cause I remember coming home and I'd get a phone call back in the, you know, olden days when there was a house phone, and my dad- Yep... would always say, "Who was that?"
• 6:14
  And I would be like, "None of your business," you know? Mm-hmm.
• 6:18
  And going out, like leaving the house at 9:00, which I would never do now, but things like that, it is a hard adjustment and I-My ADHD son is the younger kid, and I'm like, I think it's gonna be hard for him when his older brother moves on to high school next year or college, 'cause he always wants to know what he's doing.
• 6:33
  Even when- Yeah... when he's mad at him, he's obsessed with him, you know, so that vacuum. How's your daughter doing being the only kid at home now? How's that been going for her?
• 6:42
  Well, she really misses her brother, and from time to time she'll go in his room and stretch out on his bed, or watch his television, or she'll- Aw...
• 6:49
  put his clothes on which are way too big for her, and just to feel close to him. And every now and then she'll just burst into tears. I'm like, "What's happening?" Aw. And she'll be like, "Nothing. I just miss him."
• 7:01
  I said, I'm like, "Well, call him." You know? So he's been really great. He's very responsive to her, unless he's in class, and he will call her back and he indulges her.
• 7:10
  And I do hear them on the phone, and I'll hear him say, "If you're not gonna say anything, I'm hanging up," because she'll just sit and she'll just stare at him. Aw, that's sweet. I love that. Yeah.
• 7:22
  You're a- That's adorable. That must like fill your heart. Like, that, that is great. So congratulations on the book. Thank you. How is the promo tour going? How has life been- Oh...
• 7:31
  especially this book compared to the first book? It's a very different experience, and I've heard tales and now I'm experiencing it.
• 7:39
  So the previous publishing house, so SourceBooks, really did a lot, like, a lot of pre-marketing, marketing. I got to go all over the country a couple times.
• 7:48
  And Bloomsbury, I guess 'cause it's a multinational publishing house or what have you, not so much. Yeah. Got it. I've been there.
• 7:56
  I feel like book writing is kind of like child rearing, where I think maybe I've said that to you, where you're like, it's up to you to make- Mm-hmm... of it what you will, you know? Yes.
• 8:04
  You know, you're like, "I put myself out there. I hope it means something to somebody." So Quinn and I both have, you know, we both have kids with ADHD, but both- Mm-hmm... of our ADHD kids are boys- Okay...
• 8:15
  which is, you know, one difference. But Quinn, I don't know if you bought many books about ADHD, like, while you were, you know, earlier on in your journey. Like how many references you- Yeah... you checked out.
• 8:25
  Yeah, we tried to. You know, it was relatively new to us, which is both ironic and I guess not a surprise considering [laughs] my wife is the most undiagnosed one of all, who has now gone through it and is, "Ah, yes.
• 8:40
  Got it. Check, check, check" Yes. Got it. Mm-hmm.
• 8:41
  So we, yeah, we really tried to, as usual, you know, really tried to take the most holistic scienced-based approach to building our knowledge and understanding of it as we possibly could, from the- Sure...
• 8:56
  history of how we got here with diagnoses and why now- Mm-hmm...
• 9:00
  and, you know, like anything in the health industry now, so much of, not everything by any stretch, but there's a lot of, for instance, increased number of cases of a particular cancer, for instance, but that's a lot of times because we moved screening up 10 years and we've gotten better at that particular screening.
• 9:16
  So there's a lot of variations on that. So we tried to really understand it before we even got anywhere close to, okay, what kind of, you know, flavor might his be? Who might be the best person?
• 9:25
  You know, what might be the best package of talk therapy and medicine, or, and then what kind of medicine? So I can look up whichever ones we got. Again, it was about five years ago, six years ago, something like that.
• 9:37
  But then we also got a couple of books for him and stuff, you know, that were kind of like kids books- Yes... of, hey, here's, you know, from that perspective. But he was- Right... a good, always a good sport about it.
• 9:46
  Dr. T, tell me about what your journey was, just in terms of the book, before we even t- talk more about your kid.
• 9:51
  What did you not see in the landscape in terms of references that you're like, "I'm gonna take it upon myself to put out a new reference in the world and do the work in addition to raising these kids and, you know, maintaining my career"?
• 10:02
  Where was the gap that you saw that you could provide this? I think I saw two gaps. One was girls. I found, like, a lot of stuff about women, so Quinn, you mentioned your wife, and so women getting diagnosed later.
• 10:16
  But I wasn't really seeing stuff about girls because the stereotype of ADHD is really based upon boy behavior.
• 10:26
  And so, you know, I'm like, well, somehow these women have gotten to a point where they recognize they have ADHD or something's going on. So there was a gap. And then the other gap that I saw
• 10:39
  was with what happens when you have stepped down in care. It's great when you can afford to pay for all of the things, but if your insurance changes, you move or anything like, that's a very different experience.
• 10:56
  And so I wanted to really kind of talk about those things.
• 10:59
  And then the stuff I always talk about, race obviously is important to me because girls, Black girls are treated differently when they, you know, stop sort of behaving, or they behave in unexpected ways.
• 11:14
  And it seems to me it's never, you know, maybe something's going on. It becomes more of this child, and then you fill in all the blanks of the stereotypes. Yeah.
• 11:25
  Not to generalize, but my son is ADHD combined type, and he is very stereotypical, or he was in terms of throwing himself around and, like, making mouth noises and, you know, having a temper or being very competitive.
• 11:37
  But I did watch this movie, this documentary called The Disruptors, and there was a woman who, I think she was Indian maybe, but she is a doctor and her husband's a lawyer or something, and she talked about how her daughter sort of didn't adhere to these certain, you know, goal setting and obedience.
• 11:53
  And they just talked a little bit about how girls, like, it manifests differently with them than boys. So- Yes... can you talk a little bit about the differences? Yes. I saw The Disruptors as well.
• 12:02
  So the stereotype for girls who have ADHD is that most likely it will be inattentive, and so she will be quiet and not bothering anyone. I mean, you almost forget she's in the room, and usually she's very sweet.
• 12:16
  And even if her grades aren't that great, the red flags don't necessarily go up until a little bit later. It's, oh, maybe she just needs a little bit of time.
• 12:25
  Lots of excuses are made maybe around academics or she's shy, so maybe socially.As opposed to kind of diving into, well, perhaps she's inattentive because she isn't focusing, she isn't able to focus.
• 12:43
  My daughter, like your son, has combined type, so she was sitting under the table turning cartwheels the whole nine. So she got a lot of attention. And so there was definitely no denying that something was going on.
• 12:54
  And I often feel very strongly that had she fallen into the stereotype of girls being very sweet and very quiet and just not really bothering anyone, that it would've been missed for a long time.
• 13:06
  I just would've figured, oh, instead of, wow, she is super spirited, I would've thought, oh, she's a little spacey, that's my little space cadet, and not realized the damage that would have caused, you know, later on.
• 13:18
  [upbeat music] Hey, it's Quinn. So as you might be aware, this whole thing started as a simple, "Hey, here's what you missed" newsletter.
• 13:28
  And today, we've turned that one little newsletter into this burgeoning media and tech empire, right?
• 13:35
  We've got over fifty thousand readers in almost a hundred countries, and tens of thousands of podcast downloads a month, and app visitors, and it all comes back to our email and website provider.
• 13:46
  Beehiiv not only helps us write and send these beautiful newsletters that actually get into people's inboxes, it also hosts our membership, it hosts our website, it gives us crazy best-in-class analytics with, like, unlimited ways to review our data.
• 14:01
  We can run polls and surveys and use custom fields, and also it integrates with a ton of external tools.
• 14:09
  Their API lets us sync your email user profile to the profile on our app so everything for you is streamlined and in sync, and you don't even see what's going on behind the curtain. It's great.
• 14:20
  So if you've ever considered starting a newsletter for your hometown, for a book club, business, yourself, your art, whatever, Beehiiv has a deal for you here.
• 14:31
  You can sign up using my link, and you get a thirty-day free trial and twenty percent off for the first three months, which is a lot.
• 14:40
  So I'm gonna read you the link, but you gotta know it's also in the show notes, and you can just click it. Okay? And understand that Beehiiv is spelled a little funny.
• 14:48
  It's beehiiv.com, but it's B-E-E-H-I-I-V.com/?via=quinn. Honestly, if you can remember that, congratulations. Otherwise, it's right in the show notes. Check out Beehiiv today. You guys will love it.
• 15:05
  We depend on it every minute of every day. So thanks for supporting our partners. [upbeat music] Yeah. I think the word spirited is very...
• 15:15
  We had a book, and maybe you've seen it, called The Spirited Child, and some part of me thinks that that's the book for parents who aren't quite ready yet to go start looking for a diagnosis of ADHD. They're not- Okay...
• 15:25
  quite ready to get there, and I think spirited is sort of like a bridge, you know, between, you know, just a typical child versus, you know, a full-blown kind of diagnosis.
• 15:36
  So how old was your daughter when you got serious about getting a diagnosis or getting her tested? She was almost six. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it was kindergarten. Quinn, how about you? Doing the math. Yeah, seven, eight-ish.
• 15:50
  I think, one, we could've done it earlier because it was pretty evident in sort of later preschool, early kindergarten, but we didn't feel informed enough. Yep. And two,
• 16:03
  it's very easy to look at little boys and be like, "They're just... They're being idiots," you know? Yeah. Which was entirely possible. They are still that way in addition- Yes... to that. I ha- Yes...
• 16:13
  you know, again, like, I have boy, girl, boy, and it's a, you know. Mm-hmm. They're wonderful, smart, sweet humans, and also Neanderthals. But then COVID hit, and so we were both watching it happen live for sure.
• 16:26
  I mean, Zoom school was a nightmare- It was awful... for all of them. Yes. But for this child was incredible. I mean, this guy was under the desk intense. Yes. These poor teachers. Yes.
• 16:34
  When it really clicked for us, and I think Claire and I have talked about this a little bit before, but where it really clicked for us was he, over the course of the Zoom school time,
• 16:44
  he became more self-aware s- that he was unable to pay attention and have the executive functioning that other kids did. Yes. Which was surprising that he picked up on it. Helpful, I think.
• 17:00
  And again, we try not to just ride him, but we would have someone, like, sit quietly in the room to try to nudge him back this and this, but it was over and over. But again, you know,
• 17:09
  these poor teachers with thirty third graders on Zoom, no one knows what's happening. Mm-hmm. Like, it was difficult for them as well, and he could feel being singled out.
• 17:16
  Our real trigger was not just that, because we also have two other k- kids. Right. Younger kids in Zoom school. Sure. Was when he started to get very down on himself about it. Yes.
• 17:27
  And that's where we went, "Okay, we've been trying to educate ourselves, but clearly, like, our rituals and the things we're trying to do- Mm...
• 17:34
  are not enough now, and probably from our understanding of how this goes, definitely not gonna be enough when we get to ten, 12, 13, 14. So- Yeah... we need help to help, you know, Jerry Maguire, "Help me help you."
• 17:47
  So that's kinda how it came to be for us.
• 17:50
  Which, again, was a little weird during COVID, but we're, you know, thankful for the resources that folks have put out there like yours, and that we were able to get the help and, like you said, be able to afford.
• 18:00
  Mm-hmm. Not that I haven't driven a couple hours to try to find Adderall in, over the past couple years. Oh, yeah. But at least we have been able to afford it as needed. So, so that was our journey summed up.
• 18:10
  Tell me a little bit, Nefertiti, about what you knew or didn't know about ADHD before you adopted your daughter or even just, like, before you became a parent, and what your knowledge was, what your assumptions were, and, you know, I don't know if you knew people who had a kid with it or they had it themselves.
• 18:27
  Just curious, like, what your exposure was before that. I didn't have language to describe it. I mean, not till later.
• 18:36
  I obviously had heard of ADHD, and I think I thought it wasYou know, someone who just couldn't sit still, someone who was kind of
• 18:47
  all over the place, and e- like thinking of my adult friends, for instance, people who'd have great ideas and just couldn't close a deal, you know, just couldn't execute a plan.
• 18:56
  And then in children, I just thought, okay, you know, a child who's hyper and, and bouncing off the walls, and I didn't understand beyond that. I just had a very surface sort of idea of ADHD.
• 19:13
  And then when my son was in lower elementary school, I can't remember which teacher had asked me, "Well, do you think he has ADHD?"
• 19:27
  And so I thought, well, no, and I spoke with a friend of mine who's a professor in education, and she was very quick. And she was like, "No."
• 19:36
  And from her perspective, she's like, "You have a Black boy in a predominantly white private school, and so often, it isn't even intentional, but white teachers will throw that label out there for whatever reason."
• 19:51
  And so because I had that, you know, in my mind, and he didn't, but I definitely pushed back on it, and, you know, fast-forward a bunch of years, when I look back on and I wonder, okay, was the teacher accurate?
• 20:05
  Did she see something I didn't see? In that, that particular age, no, she was wrong, and that's a whole nother conversation that I talk about in, you know, Motherhood So White.
• 20:14
  But I just had a very surface sort of understanding of what it was. And I did think, like a lot of Black people, that Black children are quick to be assigned that label.
• 20:26
  So I wasn't dismissive of it, but I knew that there were some racial implications underneath it. Yeah. When you were a kid, what were you like at school? Were, you know, a good girl?
• 20:37
  Were you, you know, always, uh, following the rules?
• 20:39
  I'm just curious what it was like to have a kid who, you know, maybe reacted differently than you did at school and how that affected the way that, you know, I don't know if you got reports from school or interactions with her, but, like, did that bring up feelings about your own self, sort of?
• 20:54
  Okay, so I had very young parents, and I had parents who also had drug problems, so when I was in kinder through
• 21:03
  I think, like, third grade, we moved a lot, and I missed quite a bit of school, but I always loved school, so I was always a very strong student.
• 21:11
  And then once my brother and I went to live with grandparents, I mean, I got in trouble for talking to my neighbor because I'd be bored. But I was always a very strong student.
• 21:24
  Now, I can think of people I grew up with, and in hindsight, I can say, "Oh, you know what? James really wasn't bad. He just had ADHD, but the teacher didn't know what to do with him."
• 21:36
  So I could name a bunch of names of people who, even as adults, remain undiagnosed, but from my experience as a learner, my daughter, I mean, we're 180 degrees in, in how we learn.
• 21:49
  And I mean, Quinn, I know you've had to learn how to chunk assignments and asking teachers to implement accommodations or having to really break things down very granularly sometimes for the kids. I didn't have that.
• 22:03
  I could do that on my own. So it has been a learning experience, and I'm very clear, like, her experience is not my experience, so I don't put that on her.
• 22:11
  I gotta be honest, though, like, I was saying to my wife, it was our 15th anniversary recently, which feels like- Congrats. Thank you. It's a lot of work, as you all know.
• 22:20
  We were having our little, you know, "How has it gone" [chuckles] conversation. Yeah. And, you know, I, I say things like, I, I wish sometimes, often, honestly, that I could go back
• 22:34
  with the experience I have now as a dad, the good stuff and the rougher stuff that I've learned from, to be a better dad then when they were little, 'cause I had three under three.
• 22:42
  We had a bunch of miscarriages, an IVF, and all this, and then beggars can't be choosers, three under three. Third was an accident, of course. Yeah.
• 22:49
  But that still means, like, three under four, three under five, you know, the whole thing. Ooh, yeah. And it was tough. Pros and cons, you know, house filled with diapers, but then you're done.
• 22:56
  But especially when he was having a harder time and we weren't aware of it, or this, or, you know, we had, like, terrible twos is the worst label of all time, 'cause they don't tell you about three. Or five.
• 23:06
  Oh, my God, yes. Yeah.
• 23:07
  And w- you know, we were kinda going through all that, and I wish I sometimes I could go back for it, but I do feel like because of his experience and each of them with their own things, they've each got stuff going on like the rest of us.
• 23:19
  Yeah. I feel, like you said, learning that I need to break things down- Mm-hmm... for him is something that my entire family can benefit from, including me. Like- Yes...
• 23:33
  when w- as we talk about, we got five people, we're both working, my wife's very busy, we, you know, got commitments, this and this. We've got crazy calendar stuff like I'm sure you guys do.
• 23:42
  Claire and I talk about it all the time. Like, sometimes it helps to go, "Go do this one thing." One thing. "And then I will give you the next direction."
• 23:51
  Because I used to be like, "Buddy, why haven't you followed this trail of things I gave you to do?" Yes. And- Yeah... I didn't know. He was completely incapable of doing that. But also- Yeah... most of us are not.
• 24:00
  So I think some of that stuff has actually just been helpful overall. Like you said, not always something we're able to do.
• 24:08
  You know, someone's having a tantrum, and sometimes you gotta be like, "Sorry, we can't sit here and talk about it. We're fucking late for soccer practice." Mm-hmm. "Yeah, we gotta go right now.
• 24:14
  We'll deal with it in the car," and that's not perfect, but that's also kinda life. Yeah. So anyways, that's kinda my feeling with a little bit of, you know, hindsight.
• 24:22
  So I think a lot of this stuff is applicable to most of us most of the time. Yes.
• 24:27
  And, you know, I think having a kid with ADHD is sort of like having a newborn in that-There are these scaffoldings and organizations and best practices in place, but the kid doesn't know that, you know? Right.
• 24:37
  And so you're like, "But I put the calendar on the fridge." Yes. "And all the experts say that was gonna make everything better, and you-" Yeah. "... didn't get the memo somehow." Yeah.
• 24:46
  And, or like we've talked about how if you don't eat, like you are in a bad mood and you take everyone down, so why don't you eat?
• 24:53
  You're not always perfect at, you know, having the wherewithal to rise above or, you know, to give them the benefit of the doubt.
• 25:01
  We all have our own weak moments, but, you know, those moments of thinking that you can have control over it or not.
• 25:07
  Tell me a little bit about the supports that you found either, like, in your community or if you found any, like, therapists or doctors or specialists at school that were helpful for your daughter, but also to you to make you feel...
• 25:18
  You know, I don't know what you, how your stress manifested itself, but what did you need that helped you out? Well, we were fortunate in- Yeah... the therapists we've had.
• 25:27
  We've had some really great therapists who would say to me, "Okay, I'm gonna meet with you by yourself," which was great. Mm-hmm. So then it gave me an opportunity to really vent.
• 25:39
  And I mean, I vent with my friends, but it was great. And still, she has a therapist that I can go to, and I can be very transparent about the fact that... Okay, so this is a couple months ago. Warnings.
• 25:50
  Oh my God, I just wanna throw her out with the trash because didn't wanna get up attitude, and she's 12. So, you know, it's already the, I get a lot of mouth, you know, as it is
• 26:01
  and I'm over it because she has to take the bus. It's a very long bus ride, and we don't have a lot of time in the morning, and she's lollygagging.
• 26:10
  And like you said, the calendar, so for her, there's a whiteboard in her room. Everything is very neatly written, every single task, and I know better than to put 10 tasks on there, so there's four tasks.
• 26:22
  I'm always super careful about not giving too many directions because I give too many directions. I'm well aware of that. I'm working on myself. And she didn't care. You know? Mm-hmm.
• 26:33
  She talking shit and not getting dressed, walking around the circle, petting the dogs. Oh. Not eating breakfast, not taking her medicine. And the whole time, I'm looking at the clock, and I'm like, "If you miss this bus,
• 26:47
  you will stay home with me, and you're not gonna be happy about that, 'cause I'm sick of you, and I'm done, and I'm triggered." It's not gonna be great. Yeah. Yeah. We're not putting on screen time.
• 26:56
  We're not doing screens. Yeah. It's, I will frequently say things like, "You're gonna wanna get on that bus. Let me break it down for you. You don't wanna be here on the other side at 8:00." Here with me all day long.
• 27:08
  Uh-huh. Because I will cancel everything I need to do. Mm-hmm. And I will sit here with you in this room all day, and we'll just sit and stare at each other. Mm-hmm. Or I'll go through this nightmare of a room.
• 27:18
  She collects all manner of stuff. She's a bag lady from way back. I'll throw all this shit in the trash. It will give me pleasure to do it, and you will watch me do it. Oh. So I get- Yeah... very petty.
• 27:28
  So I do have to tell on myself and say to the therapist, "I was... I had my petty boots on, and I liked it." Yeah. Yeah. E- especially as they get older- Yes...
• 27:38
  a lot of things can be true, which is, like, you were following every best practice as you can think of. Yes. You're not changing it. You're giving them one direction. You're helping them.
• 27:45
  You're giving them grace that they are always going to have a harder time with this- Yes... even when you set all that things up, and they need to get on the fucking bus. They gotta get on. And get their stuff done.
• 27:54
  Gotta get on the bus. And yeah, sometimes I'm just like, "I don't know what to tell you, but, like- Yep... you're sitting on the ground drawing, and, like, it's coming. Like, you get... You have to leave."
• 28:04
  [upbeat music] Okay, so I wanna tell you all about one of my f- favorite tools I have. It's called Readwise. It has changed my reading. It has changed my parenting. It has changed my work here.
• 28:21
  It has helped me literally just remember things I read, but also start to tie it all together, to find themes and ideas that connect to how I live and parent and how I show up as a partner, but also in my work and to express my ideas.
• 28:37
  I've got 300-something books in there, a couple thousand articles, a ton of old tweets. Here's how it works. You highlight stuff in Kindle or whatever or Readwise's reader app.
• 28:47
  It saves it to Readwise, and then every day, the app is on your phone or whatever, and it's like, "Hey, here's five of your past highlights. Would you like to review them in 10 seconds?" And you do.
• 28:57
  But here's what's fun. You can also do more. And you can search it all. I can't imagine having this in college. I would've probably graduated easier.
• 29:06
  Does it help me build a broader understanding of all the niches we work in? Yes. Does it help me build a broader understanding of how it all ties together? Yes. I truly think Readwise will change
• 29:19
  your reading and your life like it did mine. It all just syncs together once you click a few clicks and hook it up.
• 29:25
  So right now, they're offering you guys, my listeners, two free months of Readwise when you sign up instead of the usual one month.
• 29:33
  Readwise and their reader, which is called Reader, the link to sign up and get that extra month is in the show notes, and it's also here. I'm gonna read it to you. It is simple. It is readwise.io/quinn.
• 29:46
  That's readwise.io/quinn. Again, it's right in the show notes for you. Just click it.
• 29:51
  Please check out Readwise today, support our partners, and never forget what you read ever again, which is not something I thought I'd ever say. [upbeat music] Yeah. Also, why is the dog, like, the dog attention so...
• 30:04
  I've texted Quinn about this. My son James will focus on the dog, like, right before- Yes... bedtime. I have to hug him at the kitchen. He loves me, sticking his fingers in his face.
• 30:13
  I've said, I don't know if you've said this, "If he bites you, I'm not gonna feel sorry for you." Yes. It's your fault. Let's go on, and it's not a nice- Yes... thing to see your kid do, you know?
• 30:22
  But also, again, like, end of day, what time of day is a good time of day?
• 30:26
  But really, last night I was singing him a lullaby, which I don't do anymore, 'cause I'm just the worst, and he interrupted me to tell me to remind him something, and I walked away. He said, "You can keep singing."
• 30:38
  And I said, "No, I'm done." And then he, like, sang the song to himself. And I was likeI had my pretty boots on.
• 30:45
  I could have gone back and been like, "This child, like, he was just trying to remember things," but I was like, "Nope, I'm done. I'm not singing you Twinkle Twinkle. Like, you blew it," so that was it. Yeah.
• 30:52
  But- And I, I try to recognize that's a lot of times about me, where I'm like, "I don't have it tonight. I don't have- Yeah... first gear, much less, like, second gear," and it doesn't- Yeah...
• 31:02
  behoove our relationship for me to- Mm-hmm... take that out on them, because they are- Mm-hmm... just being a kid, much less, like, sort of ADHD at bedtime, which is a whole other thing. Yeah.
• 31:09
  But sometimes I'm just like, "Best wishes. Enjoy your book." Yeah. I gotta... I can't. This only gets worse from here. You have to tap out, and she'll do that, and it's time to go to bed.
• 31:19
  She'll show up with a deck of Uno cards, and then a regular deck of cards, and I'm looking at the clock again, and I'm like, "Are you serious?" Yeah. We've been home together all this time.
• 31:30
  You didn't look in my direction. You didn't wanna talk to me, and now it's time to go to bed, and you wanna play a card- "Oh, it'll just be quick." "No, I have tapped out. I'm done." Right. So- Yeah... good night.
• 31:41
  Also, let's check tape. When has it ever been quick? Like- Yeah... never. No. No. There's no easy way to play Uno, especially with two people. You could- It's like Monopoly. No. Wow, you really... You know something.
• 31:54
  You're right. [laughs] It's amazing, yes. I'm serious. No, it's true, especially 'cause you're never gonna shuffle all those cards right, and then you're gonna end up with all- Mm-hmm... a handful of red. Yeah.
• 32:02
  Talk a little bit about some places where you've had to sort of choose your battles.
• 32:06
  I think we're kind of on this topic, but if you go on social media enough, like it's not hard to find people saying, "The reason why kids are today is 'cause people don't discipline their kids," or, "People don't spank anymore," you know, and there's a fine line.
• 32:18
  You can't hold these kids to every single standard that maybe we were held to, or you might hold another kid to, but there's a fine line between letting them walk all over you.
• 32:26
  Again, it depends on how you're feeling, the time of day, what... You know, are we on a schedule? But what's something where you've had to let something go that you maybe wouldn't have with your son, for instance?
• 32:37
  My son graduated in the spring, so just before graduation, you know, they had a number of events, and he had gone on a retreat. He went to an all-boys school, so when the boys returned, we're sitting in chapel.
• 32:50
  And so the boys are filing in, and, you know, we're in a chapel. It's a Catholic school, so it's this, you know, kind of a momentous occasion.
• 33:00
  And she was mad at me because I would not allow her to bring her iPad in the church, and we were only going to be in there I think 30, 40 minutes or what have you.
• 33:14
  So not only does she have an attitude, we're in the pews, and then she decides to reach for my phone. Okay, no. So I didn't even say anything.
• 33:24
  I just put my phone in my purse, and so she's sitting there and she's like, "I hate you so much," and our really good friends who've known her, her, her whole life are seated in front of us, so my friend turns around 'cause she's horrified that she has said...
• 33:40
  And she's hot. And so I have to put my hand on my friend's shoulder, and to calm her down, and tell her, "Don't worry about it. Just, we're good."
• 33:52
  And we just continued on, and I just ignored her, you know, the whole thing. And then by the end of it, she had calmed herself down, and then of course she was happy to talk to her brother.
• 34:04
  But those types of things, that will happen, and that's not the first or the last time that has happened. And, you know, kids get really loud around their friends and very- Mm-hmm...
• 34:14
  attitudinal around their friends, and so if it's time to go, or I'll say, "Okay, get your things. Let's go." "I am. I did. I'm going to," and, you know, and it's a little louder than it should be. Mm-hmm.
• 34:27
  I wait until we get in the car, and then of course I hem her up for that behavior, and I try very hard not to humiliate, because- Mm...
• 34:38
  I don't think that's the right thing to do, and I definitely will not do that to her in front of other people. And I've been trying to get her to understand, don't do that to me, and you're going to lose.
• 34:51
  Like, I'm gonna win every single time.
• 34:53
  So don't do it, and whether or not we have this conversation in front of people or not, just know that if you forget who you are, and more importantly, if you forget who I am, I will remind you. You're the- Mm.
• 35:07
  You are the one who knocks. Yeah, I, I think, Claire and I have mentioned this before, so much of life obviously is about expectations, and especially children, once they're semi-sentient, or, like- Yeah...
• 35:17
  more confident than they are sentient, or their ability to grasp things. But I realized as, again, they're all sort of in this same age range and going through things,
• 35:28
  I was like, "Why are we arguing about, like, the dumbest shit all the time, over and over?" All the time. Like the... It's all the same. And I had this moment where I was like, oh, they...
• 35:37
  It's a f- like first principles, fundamental misunderstanding where they think a majority of decisions, calendar entries, whatever, are a conversation to be had. Right. So, like, that they're up for discussion.
• 35:53
  And I was like- Right... oh, that's why. And so we had this sit-down where I was like, "I am so sorry. I'm gonna put this on me. But let me clarify something for you.
• 36:02
  Everything you see here," and I'll show them my crazy-ass calendar- Yeah... with work and mom travel and my stuff and all this. Yeah.
• 36:08
  I was like, "Everything here, I know you think it's like, it's there, and if you fake a cough like Ferris Bueller, you don't have to go." I was like- Right...
• 36:14
  there's so many moving pieces behind, not just that it's there, but that I actually put it there, and the decisions, uh, everything in- and by the way, like, I took your opinion and your beliefs and values into [laughs] whether we are going to this thing or prioritizing you in this moment or this day, whatever.
• 36:33
  I was like- Mm-hmm... those aren't gonna change. Right. Like that, that's, just so you know. I will let you know from now on when something is a question or conversation, but otherwise- Mm... you might as well let go.
• 36:44
  And- But yeah... they were- Yeah... super annoyed, but also I was like, "I don't know what else to tell you." Like, we can't keep- No way... doing this about every single thing.You're much more measured than I am.
• 36:54
  I prefer like the blow up, you know, the explos- Sure, sure. But you're so good at those, though. I... Yeah. I told my son he was being an asshole the other night. Yeah. And I don't cuss at them like that.
• 37:04
  But there was a misunderstanding, and my son thought my husband was teasing him, and he wasn't and my son said, "Shut up." And I was just raised in a family where kids don't say shut up. Yeah, they do not.
• 37:14
  And I- Mm, mm, mm. Yeah. That was our biggest trigger word, to be honest. Yeah. Like more than sucks, more than pissed off- Yeah. Yeah Yeah... which are also like bad words. And he doubled down. He wasn't sorry about it.
• 37:25
  And I said, "You are being an asshole." And then he- Yep... like I don't know what he said, but I did one of these. Mm-hmm. Yep. And my husband, he rose above, and he took him upstairs, and they talked.
• 37:35
  And I actually did the, I literally sunk down, 'cause I took my food down to the basement, and I put myself in time out to eat my food. [laughs] 'Cause I had, of course, like been cooking all day.
• 37:46
  That's the, you know- Yeah... that's the straw that breaks the camel's back is like when they're eating the food that you cooked, you know, that you put all the time into. And anyway, and then we apologized the next day.
• 37:55
  But yeah, I didn't have it in me, Quinn, to be like, "We don't talk that way," and, you know, I just sometimes I just- And by the way, like I'm glossing over, I did a, you know,
• 38:04
  minimized, I summarized like all of the fights that led up to this where I did not handle it well, both like in the moment and in aggregate. That's the only thing that got us- Well, we're human... to that place. Yeah.
• 38:15
  Yeah. We're human. And I did tell my daughter, I said, "You know, I know your triggers. Uh, basic, hunger, exhaustion, overstimulation. Those are your triggers." And for me, disrespect is a trigger.
• 38:28
  And there's a lot that I just, I ignore. I don't hear it. I let it run off me. And then I will start to signal, "Hey, that's one. Okay, now you're at two. If I get to three and I let go, then that's on you."
• 38:44
  And then she'll, you know, say that, "You're yelling at me, and you're a bad today." " 'Cause I don't know of another way to get your attention, and I gave you a heads up. I asked you to stop. I told you to stop.
• 38:54
  I implored you to stop, and you did not stop, so here we are." Yeah. And I'm yelling at you because I'm preparing you for the world that won't be as kind as I am.
• 39:03
  What was it like to work on this book while raising your daughter? Were you talking with her as you wrote it, and would you learn things that you would sort of implement in real time?
• 39:11
  I just think that's really interesting, the, like the meta aspect of it. Okay. I don't know that was a good idea. Yeah.
• 39:17
  And there were many times when I thought, "This is probably not the best time to write this [laughs] book- Yes... 'cause I am in the thick of it."
• 39:25
  There's that piece, and I did talk to her because I wanted her to know that, yes, I am writing about you, every single thing, not every single day, snapshots of our life and snapshots of things that have worked and things that haven't worked.
• 39:40
  And you will help so many kids and so many parents- Mm... and so many teachers who don't know how you actually feel, or as a parent, how I'm actually feeling in this moment
• 39:56
  when I've gotten yet another email or another text message saying, you know, this happened and that happened, and they're confused and I'm confused, and you're upset and I'm upset, all these things.
• 40:09
  And so I did talk with her so she was aware of what I was writing, why I was writing. She's Dispirited, but when, let's see, when was I working on it last year?
• 40:21
  Sixth grade was actually pretty good, so from an educational point of view, it was okay, but just in her maturation, that 11
• 40:31
  slowly creeping up to 12, and just all the things, hormones and all of that stuff, it just really wasn't the best time. You know, what could I do?
• 40:40
  Tell me something that you learned that was helpful while you wrote it, but also I feel like I've picked up references that have not been helpful, like things that lean, like it's good to be empathetic towards these kids, but I don't appreciate the guilt trip sometimes, too.
• 40:52
  And I know that sounds very defensive, and I own it.
• 40:55
  I am defensive, but like I, I have seen those references that are like, "If you only knew what your child wanted, like you would realize like what a huge asshole you are, and you would forgive them everything."
• 41:05
  And I'm like, that's not, like I need a little discipline. Like these are men- Yeah... in the world, and I'm not trying to let him get away with everything.
• 41:11
  So tell me something that you learned that you used, and then something that you're like, maybe we'll just let this be its objective thing that these other people enjoy. Well, I agree with you.
• 41:19
  I think discipline is huge. I think it's important, and the guardrails are there for a reason.
• 41:26
  And I think definitely in interviewing people and talking with people who've gone before me through this whole process, I really see where you do have to hold the line.
• 41:39
  So for all the gentle parenting experts, I don't really agree with that.
• 41:44
  I think there are times when the empathy is necessary, and it is warranted, and there are times when you do have to take a step back, and you do have to say, "Gosh, I just need her to do three things," but the reality is only one thing is gonna get done today, and I gotta be okay with that one thing that gets done.
• 42:03
  So I had to really let go. So I do think that in the writing of She's Dispirited, I was reminded to let go of some of my expectations and to be okay with, okay, one thing got accomplished versus three, it's okay. Mm.
• 42:21
  That's a win. Yeah. So really learning to recognize a win, and then mirror for her, "Hey, that's a win. We got a win." So I think I'm doing a better job of saying to her, "Did you recognize your win?
• 42:36
  Hey, you got a win" Mm. Just to keep her lifted- Mm-hmm... and not focus on, okay, yeah, we got this one thing done, but we didn't finish this, and we didn't finish that, and because I can go down the list.
• 42:47
  So I, I've really, I think, grown in that respect where I'm more positive without it being insincere. You know, like you say, "Oh, good job," like I don't- Or abandoning it all together, you know? Exactly.
• 42:58
  Which is easy, as I had a-Wonderful therapist for a long time who used to tell me, "You know, I gotta do this, and if I'm doing this, I should be doing this, and I should do this, and I should this."
• 43:08
  And he said, "You have a really great habit of shoulding all over yourself." And I would do the same thing, which was look at a list and see everything that wasn't done, and whether that's for me or other folks.
• 43:19
  And I carried that straight into parenting. Yeah. And same thing, any time you can identify wins is helpful for everyone involved, frankly. Again, like you said, as long as it's not insincere. Yeah.
• 43:32
  We are very strict about bedtime- Mm-hmm... 'cause he never sleeps in late. You know, there's no payoff. Eating- Yep...
• 43:39
  and screens, 'cause, I mean, he does get screen time sometimes, but not nearly, I think, as much as he would be allowed to have as if he were neurotypical kid because the way he behaves, the way his brain reacts once he's off screens for too long.
• 43:52
  The dopamine drops. Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. And I used to judge him f- I used to think it was a character trait. Like, I thought- Mm-hmm...
• 43:58
  I was sad about it, and I was like, "It's sad that he's such a screen adult child." But yeah, I learned more.
• 44:03
  Our, Sarah Walker, who we interviewed a couple months ago, said the same thing, that dopamine drop, they're in this world that doesn't challenge them the way that this world does. Mm-hmm.
• 44:12
  And, you know, so, so we've gotten better about meeting him halfway, setting up these... But also at the same time, you cannot treat us like shit, you know? No. We have to find, you gotta find a buffer.
• 44:22
  You gotta find a way to get over this. We have to go halfway. Did your son, I know he's a little bit older than her, but was he ever like, "Why is she so extra?"
• 44:32
  Or like, "Why does she get these extra accommodations and I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do?" Or was he pretty understanding about having a, a sister who had different needs from him? His beef was that
• 44:44
  she would do stuff to him and say stuff to him, and then I would defend her. "Okay, you're older. You have to be the mature one." And he got me really good one day.
• 44:53
  You know, I mean, he was like, "You always take her side." And I was like, "Okay, [chuckles] you're right." And from that, I did have to learn in front of him to say, "You were wrong.
• 45:03
  Apologize to your brother," or, "You took his money. Pay him back," or, "You broke whatever. Fix it." Or, you know, telling her, "He's not going to play with you if you continue calling him names-" Mm-hmm...
• 45:20
  telling him you hate him, hiding his stuff from him. Like, that doesn't feel good. So I had to do a lot of work with her so that he felt seen and...
• 45:32
  'Cause that's a lot of stress to put on the chi- And I did learn in writing this book that that term is called glass children. Mm.
• 45:39
  And that, you know, we're so focused on the child who has the issues that we see right through the other kids. They are just not seen, and they have their own issues.
• 45:49
  Some of them feel guilty because maybe they don't have ADHD, or maybe their issues are manageable, they're mild, or whatever the case may be. And some of them are forced to take on a lot of responsibility
• 46:03
  to help out with their younger sibling, or even an older sibling, to be the mature one, and it robs them of a chance to make those same mistakes.
• 46:13
  It robs them of an opportunity to just be 12 or just be 14 or just be 8 while their sibling is, you know, outside throwing stuff on the roof and they shouldn't be. [chuckles] And so he really helped me with that.
• 46:27
  And I didn't want them to grow up and not have a relationship. I really wanted them to be close because I was late to parenting. I was, what, 36, 37.
• 46:39
  And I know folks who have babies, you know, well into their 40s, but in my friend group, I was, like, at the end of it.
• 46:45
  You know, I'm like, "When you guys get older, you guys really will need each other, and I don't want it to be a relationship because Mom said so. I want it to be-" Mm...
• 46:55
  a relationship based upon, like, a mutual respect." And to get to that, she had to understand you cannot mistreat him. I wanted him to feel like he had a voice to tell her- Yeah... "Stop. Leave me alone."
• 47:07
  And every now and then, you know, he'll say some stuff to her that's probably unkind, and she'll come and tell me, and I'm like, "Oh, well. That's what you get." [laughs] Yeah. That's siblings.
• 47:18
  I always say siblings are roommates that you did not choose.
• 47:21
  And my husband's an only child, so he sometimes still cannot understand how you can quickly go so close from being obsessed with someone to hating them to going right back- Yes... to being obsessed with them.
• 47:30
  And I'm like, that's just, you have to just accept that. Did you grow up a sibling? Yes. I have a younger brother. We're exactly two and a half years apart. And so, yeah, so I know exactly how that goes.
• 47:41
  You hate each other, you love each other, and then when you get older, you know, life intervenes and, you know, sometimes you guys are cool, sometimes you're not. Yeah.
• 47:50
  Quinn, I don't know if we've ever talked about whether your kids, older brother and sister, are kind to him with his needs or, you know, they pick on him or, you know, they're mad that he needs extra attention.
• 48:01
  They're all so extra in their own ways that I think it would be, uh, mildly hypocritical to throw any stones in this- Any stones... glass house full of glass children.
• 48:12
  We've definitely, before, well, and with each of them over time, but especially when we were really trying to figure out how we were gonna accommodate and deal with this in a
• 48:22
  ongoing way, you know, there were issues of an inordinate amount of time with our brother. And you're like, yes, and that's why, because of these reasons.
• 48:33
  But we have also had to and committed to do the same with each of them at different times, and sometimes- Yes... that's the way it goes. Sometimes- Yep...
• 48:41
  everybody's having a good week, which is, don't recall the last time that was. And sometimes it's Mom or Dad or fucking both or everyone. Yeah. In which case I take the dog for a walk. But- Yes...
• 48:51
  they don't really call it out right very much. Mm-hmm. I would say they're all pretty respectful of each other's shit.
• 48:56
  That doesn't mean I don't think they have grievances or they don't get tired of it or they don't be like, "This guy" or- Yeah... "This lady," certainly, and I would be surprised if they didn't.
• 49:05
  But there's never just, like-How come this moron can't pay attention to anything? Or, you know- Oh... this and that. I would not handle that well probably.
• 49:14
  So as I have told Claire, and, and I think you alluded to it here, you get to be hungry, you get to be tired- Yes... you don't get to be a dick. Right. And life is figuring out how to do that. In fact, we- Exactly...
• 49:27
  our pediatrician when we were in Los Angeles for 15 years wrote this great book called Eat, Sleep, and Poop. And- And... it's a really great, "Hey, here's how the first year is gonna go."
• 49:38
  But what's really great about it as well is that half of the book along the way, uh, running in parallel, is hi- him ignoring his own advice to raise his own daughter, which is great and very comforting in the middle of the night.
• 49:51
  Yes. Most of the thesis of the book is, your kid's gonna be fine. It's like a flowchart of, oh, this is the rash at the end. They're like, "They're fine. Go back to bed."
• 49:58
  But the fundamentals, I just was talking with my 10-year-old about this recently, of like, man, as you get older and you go through things, whatever your choices are or who you are, how you're built, your chemistry, whatever it might be, you're gonna have an increasingly diverse set of
• 50:13
  ad- adversities. But everybody has eat, sleep, poop. You are hungry, you are cranky. Yes. You are tired, you are cranky. You gotta poop- Yep... you are cranky. Sure.
• 50:22
  The more you can at least start with those and be self-aware when they're happening, which again, like, no one starts with the [laughs] ability to pay attention to those. Mm.
• 50:29
  But the more you can recognize those and go, "Oh, it's the..."
• 50:32
  I tell them all the time, I, I have showed them, I'm like, "It's the Snickers bar commercial that is universal," the one, because it's so true, and it's the same for all of it, which is sometimes why I just go, "I'm gonna go to bed.
• 50:41
  I'm really tired." [laughs] "You're really tired. Nothing gets solved here until morning 'cause I'm exhausted." Mm-hmm. That's it. Yeah. Or, "I can't talk to you until I eat a snack." And so s- Yeah...
• 50:49
  I think starting with those things, recognizing we've all got those, but then whatever your potpourri of other issues are, or mine, is what we're- Mm-hmm... gonna deal with.
• 50:57
  And your, like you've said, we tell them all the time, we're like, "We're gonna be dead soon. You guys have to figure out how to, like, support each other. Not just deal with each other's shit, but you're all you got.
• 51:07
  So one-" That's- "... I'm sorry, and two, you're welcome." Yeah. "It could be a lot worse. But no, like- Yes... clock's ticking on the two of us, so." Yeah. Or, I don't know, and they're like, "God, these guys, Jesus."
• 51:18
  So I have these two boys, and I sometimes, I probably talk about this too much, but sometimes I just feel like I am the only girl in the world and, and not in a fun Rihanna way.
• 51:28
  And I'm always just fascinated about what it's like to live with a daughter. And I know having a daughter wouldn't be... It would have its own challenges. And maybe- I know...
• 51:35
  she would, like, destroy me emotionally much more than my sons have. But just what's the state of the union of a pre-teen girl lately? What's she into? How does it compare to when you were her age?
• 51:46
  Just tell me a little bit about how it's going for you currently. Well, it's so funny.
• 51:51
  I always thought of myself as a boy mom, and even when I was ready to adopt a second time, I was clear, I'm gonna get another little boy 'cause I got this boy thing, I can do this.
• 52:02
  I don't want a little girl because I didn't wanna deal with periods and attitudes and all the drama, and then I got exactly all of that, periods, attitudes, and drama.
• 52:13
  And I laugh at myself all the time because I'm like, "Wow, I got exactly what I didn't want." [laughs] But it's good because the truth is I needed her, and I didn't know that.
• 52:26
  So my daughter really is like my inside voice and because she doesn't really have a filter, and she will say things and she will do things that I wouldn't do at that age, of course. But I think sometimes...
• 52:40
  That was a good one. That's, that was pretty good. So it is a lot of... She's into Roblox, but they're one of the game- one of the hundreds of games on- Mm-hmm... Roblox where you get to dress your avatar. Mm.
• 52:53
  So she's very much into the outfits, the hair. She can do nails like nobody's business. She's like a professional. And so we have a thousand press-on nails all over the house, and she's got a super steady hand. So,
• 53:08
  oh my God, she's fantastic with that. And if I would allow her to wear makeup, you know, she'd look like a clown because she would be, you know, all in. But of course, you know, we can't wear makeup 'cause we're 12.
• 53:20
  At least not in my house. But okay, that's- Thank you... not happening. We're not going to Sephora- Mm... so just forget about it. It's not going down.
• 53:28
  Again, one of those things where maybe today's the day and I'm like, "No, w- ha- Have I ever changed my mind on something?" [laughs] Yeah. Like, I recognize also that is a problem in itself.
• 53:36
  We'll discuss that later, but, like, just you might as well drop it, at least publicly. Yeah. And you know, she doesn't have a phone. She won't get a phone until spring break of eighth grade, so she's on countdown.
• 53:48
  But she does have an Apple Watch that someone else purchased. I didn't buy it, but anyways, another conversation.
• 53:54
  And she does have an iPad, so the group text, I know that she's in, but you know, it's all mine, so I check- Yeah... everything, and she knows everything in this house is mine, including her.
• 54:06
  I don't care who sends what, and if you know your friend is going to be inappropriate and say stuff, you should tell them, "My mom reads all of my stuff, and she will shut this shit down." Sure. So she's into music.
• 54:18
  She loves Cat's Eye. Oh. So for Halloween, she and her crew were Cat's Eye, so it's a lot of K-pop that happens in my house. A lot of it. Oh. And graphic novels. She's a beast. She loves graphic novels. I love it.
• 54:31
  My son loves graphic novels, and especially with girls. And it's funny 'cause he's such a bro, and, uh- Yeah...
• 54:37
  I was like, I was teasing him the other day 'cause I was like, "There's no doubt that you are a cis man" because he misplaced a shirt, and he said, "Somebody took it."
• 54:44
  And I was like, "Yeah, we're all trying to take the 10-year-old's shirt 'cause we want it so bad." Yes. That's the first thing to do. Absolutely.
• 54:50
  But he loves, like, a Babysitters Club, you know, or Wendy Pini characters. Oh, yes. They're so good. Yes. Yeah, they're great. Yes.
• 54:56
  It makes me happy 'cause otherwise, you know, like, I know there's some hope for you yet. Do you think her ADHD makes her really good at the nail thing? Like, you think it's- Yes. Yeah. Hm. Yeah, she's super creative.
• 55:07
  I mean, she's, she's got a project that's coming up. They have to build, like, a medieval manor and cottages and, you know, a lake and all this stuff.
• 55:15
  So-I won't help because she's, like, fantastic with that kind of stuff.
• 55:20
  And she had some project last year, and in my mind I'm thinking, "Well, you'd build stuff vertically," but she smashed the model magic onto the board and on... I mean, it was phenomenal. She's great. She's good at that.
• 55:30
  That's awesome. That's awesome. What's Charlotte into currently? You know, K-pop also? What is she... I know you just got home. Quinn was just in London 'cause for the premiere of Wicked, so- Yeah. We're all into that.
• 55:41
  It's everywhere, in a great way. Very supportive of mom, and it's just great. She bounces around, for sure. What is the Disney show, uh...
• 55:50
  I called it Plants versus Zombies the other day, and she was like, "I'm never gonna talk to you again." [laughs] It's, like, vampire, zombie, I don't fucking know, like number four. Okay. Okay. I don't know.
• 55:59
  There's some music in there. It's all great. It's a bunch of 16-year-olds, like, having fun. She's into that. Yeah, I don't know. It depends on the day, really. Mm-hmm. It depends on the day.
• 56:08
  Um- Have your girls had to deal with, like, girl drama shit yet? Oh, my God, yes. Like- Yes. It's terrible... why is it, like, we can't learn? That makes me so sad.
• 56:17
  I guess I'm like, why did Mean Girls get made if we haven't learned our lesson about, you know, like, the trickery and the deception and the betrayal, and one day you're on top and the next day you're on bottom?
• 56:28
  You know, it seems like you have to do that, but it seems so... I thought we'd do better than that, like, after, you know, our generation.
• 56:35
  I didn't deal with that as a kid, so it was shocking for me, and it started for her in fourth grade. Mm-hmm. And it finally leveled off last year, and then this year it's, we haven't really had any problem.
• 56:46
  It seems like they definitely, they grow out of it. Not everyone, though, 'cause of course there's, you know, you see Real Housewives and pick a mean girl from one of those shows. But the mean girl stuff was horrible.
• 56:57
  These girls are awful and mean- Mm-hmm... and nasty to each other, so we definitely... And then she wanted to roll with the big dogs. I'm like, "Girl, you cannot roll with those girls.
• 57:07
  They'll eat you up and spit you out every single time." The story as old as time. And she would say stuff and do stuff, trying to, you know, hang.
• 57:17
  And it really took, I'd maybe say fourth, fifth, like, three years for her to get, that's not your crew. Not at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I get it.
• 57:24
  We've all seen it before, but like you said, immediately you're like, "This is not gonna go well for you- No... to be clear." No. No. Yeah. You will always lose. You will always- Yes...
• 57:33
  like, get hurt and, you know, yeah. I wanted to touch on, like, motherhood spaces and- Mm-hmm... like, the first time I talked to you, I think Motherhood So White had just come out.
• 57:42
  And your kids are a little bit older, so maybe you don't need, like, the same kind of spaces as you did when they were littler, but, like, when you do need a reference or a laugh or someone who won't judge you when you're like, "My daughter's being such a fucking asshole right now and I wanna slap her in the face," and they're not gonna be like, "Oh," you know?
• 57:59
  Like, where do you go when you need what you need, support-wise?
• 58:04
  I have a couple of great text threads with friends, and then I'll get on the phone and call a couple of friends in particular I can call, and we just sit and talk shit about the kids the whole time. It's so much fun.
• 58:16
  And we send each other videos, TikToks, all sorts of thi- And the kids know. They're like, "You guys are just talking about us." Yeah, 'cause if we don't talk about you, we're gonna kill you. Yeah. And so it's great.
• 58:27
  And, you know, to get the hustle out the morning, you know, I will get on the phone and call my friend and I'll be like, "I damn near killed this bitch." You know, because you have to let it out. Mm-hmm. You have to.
• 58:38
  And then we, we, we laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, and then I'm able to go on and with my day. But I believe in laughing and I believe in watching, listening, reading all the petty parenting stuff possible
• 58:52
  'cause it makes me feel good. Yeah. Yeah. The last thing I ever wanna hear is someone telling me, "Why don't you just listen to him?" Or something like that, or, "Why don't you just try loving him more?"
• 59:00
  And I'm like, "Goodbye." Yeah. There's this, you have disqualified yourself as a- Yes... as an expert. I don't know about with evil witches- Yeah...
• 59:06
  but, and I always, whenever people ask who you are, I always send them the About page of your blog 'cause it's very straightforward, like who it's for and who it is not, and you either see yourself in it or you don't.
• 59:16
  Mm-hmm. And that's, it's such, like, a threshold. It's such a qualifier. Yeah. But I'm wondering, Clare, have you ever gotten feedback from people who just signed up in the wrong way?
• 59:25
  Like, for instance, sometimes with the, you know, the rest of my job for climate stuff or public health or something like that, you know, I will very rarely get an email from someone going, "I mean, does everybody deserve food?"
• 59:35
  And I'm like, "Who do, what do you think you fucking signed up for?" Right. I can't be more clear.
• 59:40
  It, I learned, I mean, and no one means poorly, but, like, we switched schools a couple years ago and I tested the waters maybe, you know, too aggressively, and we had, well, the kids go to a Catholic school, and the school goes in hard on traditions, and they're all very precious, but, you know, sometimes you're just not.
• 59:55
  And the kids had to, I believe, dress up for May crowning, but it was a late start and an early dismissal, and I put a text out to the boy mom thread that was like, "I bet Mother Mary would've told us to, like, take a break.
• 1:00:08
  You know, she would've said relax." And one of the moms, like, was like, "Oh, it's my favorite day of the year." And I was like, "Ah, damn it." Oh, no. Oh. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it doesn't get too bad.
• 1:00:19
  There's always, that's why I started the group was 'cause, like, I just didn't need people to be like, "Be glad you have a child." You're like, "Well, yeah, obviously- God, you fucking hat...
• 1:00:26
  I'm glad I have two little legs and yeah." Of course, but that doesn't mean I don't wanna sell them sometimes. Absolutely. Like, for free. Yeah. Like, both of those things can be true.
• 1:00:35
  You know, Clare and I have talked about, we had all kinds of miscarriages and IVF, and we were flipping through egg donors, and they were all a science miracle, all this and this, and occasionally I'm still like,
• 1:00:45
  "I'll give them away for nothing. Yeah. So I will pay you. Yeah. Like, not even- Yes... a question mark.
• 1:00:50
  I have to say, every single time I know we're gonna do this call, because a Zoom call does feel like work, there's, like, a part of me that's like, it's an obligation, and then I always feel so good after these conversations 'cause of the laughing and just, like, the, just knowing that everyone else is going through it, or at least other people that are cool that I like are going through it.
• 1:01:08
  Whether or not they admit it, everyone is going through it, so I try to stay away from parenting experts who have no children. I'm like, nope. And even the ones who have one kid, I'm like, mm-hmm.You're halfway there.
• 1:01:21
  You're halfway there Yeah. Yeah. I, I have a friend who, she has no kids, but her boyfriend has a teenage daughter, and my friend was judging her, the teenage daughter for her basicness.
• 1:01:32
  Like, the girl was, like, being a crab about, I think, going outside or reading, and my friend texted us and was like, "I think that if I had a daughter, she wouldn't be like this."
• 1:01:41
  And I was like, "Nope, she would be worse. She would be- She would be worse... even dumber." Yeah. Just- You never know. You cannot call it.
• 1:01:49
  I swear, if parenting has taught me anything, it is not to judge, because you never know, and you don't know what's going on in people's homes either. We try to talk about it all the time.
• 1:01:58
  My kids are public school kids, and especially now, a lot of kids, and families, and fucking teachers, and administrators dealing with, you know, money shortages, food shortages- Yeah... you name it, all the above. Yeah.
• 1:02:11
  But even on a regular day, as we say it, you just, you never know. You never know- Mm-hmm... what's going on at home for any of these folks, much less when they're hungry.
• 1:02:20
  Can I ask you something much more stupid real quick? If your daughter is doing Roblox and she's in this game, my kids are into Grow a Garden, where they pretend to grow a garden.
• 1:02:29
  Uh, is admin abuse a thing that's in your life? Have you heard of this? Does she talk to you about this? I'm just curious if that's a part of your life. I ne- I never heard of that. What's, what's that? Okay.
• 1:02:39
  I don't know. It's something where the game is crazy for an hour, and they have to log in early, 'cause it's, like, this one shot of this one time where everything is, like, crazy.
• 1:02:49
  Although, despite, like, how rare it is, it's every weekend somehow, so it's not- Yeah, it's not... really as rare. Mm-hmm. And it's one of the things where I'm like, "How was it?" And they're like, "It was great."
• 1:02:57
  I'm like, "Okay, good. I don't know what it was, but anyway, be glad that's not..."
• 1:03:01
  So- Well, I don't know what it's called, but what you described, okay, she only gets her iPad on the weekend, so she gets it Friday night through Sunday evening.
• 1:03:09
  And so she will say, you know, I hear about a drop, "Oh, such and such is gonna drop, and I have to be on YouTube at, you know, this, this time." And she'll tell me, her friends are up at 4:30 in the morning trying to...
• 1:03:24
  You know, I don't allow that, so... And she, you know, she be- she's complained, "Well, you know, I didn't get to sign in," or she'll ask, "Well, can I do this?" And I'm like, "Is it Friday?" Mm.
• 1:03:34
  "Because I, I think it's Tuesday." So- Yeah... I guess, I mean, you'll just have to hear about it. Yeah. And again, I have been wrong on that before.
• 1:03:41
  What I'm not gonna be wrong about is the result of the answer to that question. Right. 'Cause if it is not technically Friday, which again, correct me if I'm wrong, it hasn't changed. I, like- It hasn't...
• 1:03:50
  again, you can be bummed ab- I expect you to be bummed about that. Mm-hmm. If not mad. Yeah.
• 1:03:55
  That makes me feel better, 'cause my son was asking for the computer, my older one, at 6:45 the other day, or 6:30, 'cause he said there's this thing happening, and I lost it.
• 1:04:03
  And I was like, "They're expecting you to be online, and kids on the West Coast to be up at 4:45?" And- Mm-hmm... I guess it's true. And he actually said, "You were right," like, later on. He's like, "That was too much."
• 1:04:13
  So, you know, and when your son tells you as a mother that you were right, you're like, "I'm gonna- Mm-hmm... hold this in my heart forever. This is, you know, more precious than anything else."
• 1:04:22
  Anything else you wanna share or get out there? Well, let's see. I will share that She's Dispirited is not just for parents.
• 1:04:30
  I really think it's a great resource for educators, because they spend more time with our kids than we do.
• 1:04:36
  And I do think that a lot of times educators think that we are asking for too much, we're asking for a lot of special stuff.
• 1:04:45
  And, and I think they might even kinda tune us out a little bit when we're trying to say, "No, this is who she is. This is who he is." And yeah, is it one more thing for you to do? Probably. But this is what the need is.
• 1:05:02
  Because, you know, sometimes parents feel very blindsided by teachers. It, you think everything's great, and then suddenly they tell you something 180 degrees from what they said.
• 1:05:13
  So before, like, one of her teachers had said, "Oh, it's fine if she sits under the table. It's fine if she wanders around the room." 'Cause I'm like, "She's listening. You know, I know she's not- Mm-hmm...
• 1:05:22
  on her square, but she heard every..." 'Cause I asked, "Well, what did the teacher say?" And she's told me everything you've said.
• 1:05:28
  And then the next day I get an email saying, "Oh, you know, she won't sit down," that kinda stuff. Mm. And just the mixed signals that educators send parents, and then we spiral, and we go off on our kids.
• 1:05:42
  We could communicate so much better. So I do think that there's a lot in my book that could really perhaps streamline communication between parents and educators.
• 1:05:51
  Are you available if, like, an educator wanted to Zoom with you, for instance? Are you doing, like, speaking engagements like that? And where can people find you online?
• 1:05:59
  I am at Instagram, I am Nefertiti Austin, and my Instagram and Facebook are linked, so I do check both of those. And that's probably the best place. I kinda quit X when it became X. Averse. Kinda sort of.
• 1:06:15
  Everything, everything is a lot. I respond. If you hit me up on IG or Facebook, I will respond. Well, I think- Awesome... this book is really important, and I'm glad there's more resources out there.
• 1:06:26
  I think it's really brave of you to put it out there, and in real time. I know you're a great mom, and thank you for being real with us- I am... about your journey, and we're glad to, to share this conversation.
• 1:06:37
  I'm so thankful for your perspective, which is obviously much different than ours in a thousand ways, but everybody's is.
• 1:06:43
  But at the same time, as Claire and I always try to come back to, is one, this is not an advice show, unless someone like you is on. [laughs] But two, everyone is going through it, and like you said, it's a lot.
• 1:06:56
  It's a commiseration show, and so I always appreciate the candor around your experience, and candor around everyone else's, including the children, whatever they're dealing with, which is often a lot.
• 1:07:06
  Again, like, I try to tell my middle schooler all the time, I try to start with, "Buddy, I remember. Every moment, every look someone gives you in the hallway feels- Yeah... fucking existential, and that is not fun."
• 1:07:18
  Yes, it does. And it's, yeah. "And no one escapes unscathed. A lot of people had it a lot harder than you, but that doesn't- Yeah... diminish that it's hard for you either.
• 1:07:26
  Let's talk about how we might get through tomorrow a little better, or help that friend- Mm-hmm... or yourself or whatever it might be." But it's- Yeah... it's a lot.
• 1:07:33
  But that doesn't mean, it doesn't mean parents aren't, like Claire famously throws her kids' shoes out the fucking door and is like, "Bye. Get the fuck out." Only, only when it's really necessary, not as a threat.
• 1:07:42
  Yes, I'm here for all of that, and I see you, my sister, on that, 'cause sometimes you just have to get out. Yes. Yes, indeed. All right, well, thank you so much for sharing your time with us.
• 1:07:54
  Congratulations on the book. It's good to talk to you, and everyone go buy her book and find Nefertiti online, and be nice to the next mom you see.
• 1:08:03
  [upbeat music] That's it for this week. You're gonna make it. You're doing great, or you're just doing it, or just you, period. Just stop right there.
• 1:08:21
  But for more, you can hit subscribe right in your podcast player of choice. Please share our show with another parent in your life, or anyone who might get a kick out of listening to what the hell we're going through.
• 1:08:31
  And if you have literally three seconds, just push your thumb against the five-star review button wherever you might be listening. But no pressure, honestly. We know you're busy.
• 1:08:40
  Head to notrightnow.show for more, or send us feedback, questions, horror stories, doxing, whatever it is, at questions@notrightnow.show.
• 1:08:50
  [upbeat music]