Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 197: Eating Folks in the Arctic

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Ep. 197: Eating Folks in the Arctic · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is Me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case underwear listening podcast. You Can't
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Predict Anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are the
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor where
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: you stand with on x Uh. Yeah, honestly did you
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: know that? Did you see how the bear that mauld
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: our past podcast guest Amber Cornac is dead? Is dead
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: or relocated dead? Just fresh dead? It was so I think,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: but just recently. Also we we got a thing about it.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: He relocated. Yeah, it can't It wasn't able to keep
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: itself out of trouble. So some dude just outside of Libby,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Montana had a elk he killed in his garage, and
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the bear busted into his garage to get the elk,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: and it was like kind of like a three strikes
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: you're out, like pretty much almost killed. Someone got a
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: much trouble, got relocated, got a much more trouble. It's dead.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I should be asking Amber about this, not you, because
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: she didn't want nothing to happen to it. I guess
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: the hold that thing was twenty five years old. Fifty pounds.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: He gained a hundred pounds from when he got when
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: from when he got caught in October two when he
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: got killed in November, he gained a hundred pounds. Really. Yeah,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: he went from four or fifty to five fifty between
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: October and November. That's amazing. That's a lot of eating. Yeah.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: I haven't been able to do that in my entire life. No,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: And you know, we just recently killed a fifty pound pig,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: so I'm glad to have that frame of reference. I
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: think that a bare how much beans? So you can
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: imagine you can imagine beans. Wasn't that intimidating? Yeah? But
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: he also doesn't have fur making him puffy. Yeah, he's
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: not quite as muscular either. I'm still back wondering about
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Amber and getting mulled by the grizzly bears. Oh it's horrific.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah we should go back. Uh yeah, yeah, you look
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: it up. What was that called? Oh it's horrific, man,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: No it's not. She's a grizzy bear. She's a grizzly
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: bear researcher. But she had just started being a researcher
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: and she was out collecting hair samples. They're doing like
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: a genetic study, and she's out collecting hair samples from
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: wire traps, like basically you put out a cent and
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: used barbed wire or whatever around it, and the bear
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: goes in here to get it and loses fur on
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the barbs. And she was out checking hair traps and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: got mauled horribly. Came in from behind her. It was
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: an interesting conversation we had with her. She all of
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: a sudden stumbles into it and it was just like
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: right there and she just knew, like he started coming
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: and she knew what was gonna happen. And he bit
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: her and back of the head, real bad um. And
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: she grabbed her pepper spray and couldn't even see the
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: bear at the time. It was Mallinger and held it
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: over her shoulder quick thinking yeah, and just point blanked
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: it into its face and it dropped her and took
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: off work. Yeah, everybody's like, oh, pepper spirit doesn't work
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: all the time. It's like nothing, So I've heard something recently.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Nothing works all the time. I'll give that a listen
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Episode one sixties seven and you you can't forget the
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: title mauled by a grizzly We just got right to
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: it on that title. We'll have to in the next
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: week or two call Amber and ask her she's bummed
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: the bear that maulder and nearly killed her is dead
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: because she didn't want anything bad to happen to it,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: which is the thing that's like a thing that happens
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: with people to get mauled by grizzlies. A lot of
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: times people that get malled by grizzlies don't want them hurt.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: And I if one got me, I would like to
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: know it was still out there. Yeah, but I got it.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: If I got it, it was getting up there in age. Anyways,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: how is it going to get as pragmatic as she was?
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: You'd call her a pragmatic person, wouldn't you. I feel
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: that she sort of knows that that happens to bears,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: and then it's just like unlucky that it happened to
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: the one that messed with her. But that's just the
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: times that we live in that when bears and people
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: have conflicts, the bears are gonna get alston Yeah, especially
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: a repeat offender. I mean the fact that you can
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: maul someone in pertinent or kill him and then still
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: get to be alive, says a lot about human restraint.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, we're not allowed to do that. Generally speaking.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: If I went off to Yanni Malden real bad and
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: then the nis I put don want anything bad to
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: happen to him, they still give me a talking to. Uh.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Our special guest today, historian. What do you like to
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: go by? Author? Historian? Historian and author? Author is better?
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Because I like that better too. Yeah, I'm not UH
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: have an English Masters DeGrace. I'm not trained as a historian,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: but I learned on the fly, Buddy Levy, Buddy Levy,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you that before the thing and
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: I had screwed it up and I forgot to ask ye. Author,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: give people a range of some of the things you've
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: written about. Wow, So I've written about trucker hunting, uh,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Davy Crockett, the conquest of the Aztecs, the first Europeans
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: had just send the entire length of the Amazon. Geronimo
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Um a blin mind adventurer who summited in Mount Everest,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: and Kayak the Grand Canyon who is currently on the
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: peak of Alma Blam in Nepal today. And then let's
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: see labyrinth device, the Greely expedition. So in addition to UM,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I covered adventure racing as a journalist for about seven
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: years following these wild UM outdoor they're called Multi Sport
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: and Durance competitions UM. And then I was on Brad
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Meltzer's Decoded, a History Channel show trying to not solve
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: historical conundrums. Uh. Well, we tried to solve them, but
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: mostly we didn't solve them, and we got all the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: ship for that too. It's like, you know, are you
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: ever gonna you know, did d W. Cooper? Like did
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: he get away or not? You know, We're like, no,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: well it looks like he did though. Um. But anyway,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: so yeah, I'm a comedian. Do you think Dave Cooper
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: got away? Absolutely? Almost tell people who d Cooper is
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: real quick. So yeah, there was no Phil you know DV.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Cooper is. Yeah, he jumped out of the plane kind
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: of where I grew up, So I know where he
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: is who he is? I mean, yeah, because Phillis and
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: you don't. So you're from like Seattle, Portland area in
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: between there yet? Okay, So yeah, so this this guy
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: who signed into the s dB, Cooper and he bought
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: in an airplane in Portland heading to Seattle, and when
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: he when he got on the air he landed in Seattle,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: and then he he asked for while he was flying,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: he told him he told the FBI that he wanted
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: parachutes and two d and fifty thou dollars and or
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: he would blow up the plane. And he had what
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: looked like it turns out to be a fake bomb.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: So the FBI accommodated him. They gave him. They brought
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: the money onto the airplane, and they brought parachutes, and
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: he let everybody off the plane except for like a
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: flight attendant and the pilot of course. Uh. And he
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: got up to ten thousand feet heading back over the
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: mountains in Washington, and he deployed the rear aft stairwell
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: of this airplane, or he asked the steward iss flight
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: attendant to deploy it, at which point he had already
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: put on the parachute, and he freaking got he jumped
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: out of the airplane with all the money. And so
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: the ever p well, no, so that if you if you, uh,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: if you research it, you realize that there are a
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: number of possible suspects. Right, So historically FBI, it's it's
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: actually unsolved still, but actually was right. Well, we think
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: it was this guy named um Kenneth Christiansen, who was
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: a flight attendant himself and had done like he was
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: a paratrooper in the military, so he knew everything about
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: how to jump out of the airplane. And there's a
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of reasons that we think it's him. But um,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: it was really fun. Now, why do you think that
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: he lived? Because I thought they did. They like the
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: found a sac of rotten money and stuff own money
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: in the in the stream and they found, um, they
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: found money hidden at this house in Bonnie Lake, Washington.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: And we went to the house during the filming of
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: this episode, and you know, right behind this house there
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: was buried like five thousand dollars and then there were
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: other things this guy and he really right after he um,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: right after this all happened, this guy, Kenny christians And
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: bought a brand new house. Uh. And there's another guy
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: who we interviewed named Bernie Geistman who gave us the
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: indication that it was probably you know, he was an accomplice.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: But you know, he Bernie Eastman went wouldn't go so
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: far as to like obviously admit it, because I mean
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: even the statute of limitations. Probably don't know if he
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: could even get arrested for it now, but um, he
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: didn't want to be, you know, admit that he had
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: been an accomplice to this, you know, the only unsolved
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: hijacking in American history, American aviation history. Pretty badass though,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: So you never found the body remains? No no, And
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: we went to Minnesota and interviewed this guy that it
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: was Kenny Christiansen's brother, and he gave us some pretty
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: compelling evidence that, Um, you know, there was a deathbed
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: confession that he that he told his brother that it
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: was him. Um, of course it's hard to really corroborate that,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: and I think his brother's dead now. We filmed this
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: back in Um, like, yeah, I guess I ever thought
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: about that if he was dead, to be a dead
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: guy laying there. They did find what people do, But
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: how do the people? I think we're getting way sidetrack
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: one a while to talk about, but we're not around
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: the subject. I got two things I want to ask
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: you about before we talked about what we're supposed to
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: talk about. Uh, let's say I was the perspective. Let's
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: say I was a guy that I thought he was dead,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: like I was a minute ago before we started talking
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, you know, I'm not, but I was.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: But let's say you were an informed person who thought
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: he was dead, and one said to this informed individual,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: why is his body not laying there? What would that
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: informed individuals say to explain the absence of a body? Right?
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: So there? Yeah, but like why you're saying, why didn't
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: they ever find a body? No, it's not what I'm saying.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: What are you saying? Okay, I'll just try it again.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Imagine that. I imagine that you're engaging with a person
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: who believes he's dead, but the believes he died jumping
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: out of the plane. Okay, and this person is well informed,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: and you say to them, does this person where's the
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: dead body? Then what would the person throw out there
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: as an explanation for why there's nobody? Right? Well, uh,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: he got away? How about that? Or oh yeah, okay,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: he could have been eaten by wolf wolves in the area.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Back then, that's what people who were semi informed would say, Um,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: there are other animals that could I mean, they're coyotes.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: How about so that his body was scavenged animals, and
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: that would be a thing you could say, pecked down
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: to bone. But but but they literally, I mean they
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: did find a parachute and they found money. So it
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: looks pretty much like the guy got away. Why does
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: that make you think he got away? Well, because already
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: leave the money laying out in the woods. Well he
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: might not, so he some of the money was not
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: properly tethered, so he you know. Yeah, anyway, it's it's
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: fun because this is the real story, the reason that
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: we you know, people have been trying to argue about
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: this for like, you know whatever since the seventies. Yeah,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: And it's funny because it comes it comes back up
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: all the time because people like in America, we just
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: like rehash every ten years, like oh god, having to
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: DV Cooper right two yo doesn't seem like enough to
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: try to pull that stunt up back then though, Yeah,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: adjusted for inflation, was a million retire on two K.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Couldn't you here in Montana? Sure, moved down to Miles City.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: We're still wants to move Greatest hunting fishing in the world.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah maybe maybe, But and justin for inflation, it was
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: probably four times that exactly. So, yeah, you can jump
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: off a plane for a million bucks a little dventure. Yeah. Yeah,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And and we talked to a number of people who, um,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: but there were copycats afterwards, and we talked to you know,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: um parachute instructors who were like, oh, yeah, he could
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: definitely make the jump. That's not a problem. You know,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: they've jumped out of They were jumping out of airplanes
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: all the time. So anyway, that was only one of
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: you know, there's like I don't want to talk about
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: decoded forever. But it was a really fun. Um, it
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: was fun cruising around kind of slew thing historical mystery. Yeah, hey,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: how many um, how many books have you written all together?
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: I think seven? Yeah you know you want you want
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: a hot two? Yeah? I do? You know what you
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: ought to do? We'll talk a big time bestseller. We
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: got my next book for me, big time best seller.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Claude Dallas. I like, no one's touched it since Jack
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Olsen or whatever his name was. He wrote Give a
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Boy a Gun, right, But a lot happened after that,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: so like Claude Dallas escape from prison, got caught, like
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: when like got out, he's back out now. No one
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: knows where he is. I'm jotting it down. So I
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: was Claude No no, so real quick crash course. Claude
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Dallas was uh a trapper cell styled mountain man, but
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: a fur trapper back good for a price era A
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: lot of bobcats are very valuable. And he was trapping,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: I believe, around like the border of like Idaho. You yeah,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: out in the desert there the io. There's a name
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: for it, like the io n Idaho, Oregon Desert. I
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: was a teenager and catch Amida when when this happened.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: So he was trapping out in the desert. And what
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: he was doing is one state the season was open,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: in one state the season was closed, and they had
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: a feeling that he was trapping in the closed state
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: but camped in the open state, and so he was.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: He was having casts. He's like, oh yeah, I got
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: all these casts. But they're like, yeah, but we feel
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: like you're catching him across the border where you now
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: it's supposed to. But the two game wardens come in
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: to rate his camp, and he's also got a dead
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: mule deer hanging there because he's living off deer meat.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: He's got a dead mule deer hanging in camp, gets
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: into a skirmish with the game wardens. Different his like
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: he's the only guy who lives to tell about it.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: But he says the game wardens were harassing him and
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: tried to get the drop on him. They have a shootout.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: He wounds the two game wardens. But then what seals
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: his fate because he takes the twenty two caliber pistol
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: and goes and and kills both game wardens, and cold
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Blood shoots him in the head. I didn't do it generally.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Then uh heads off into the desert. There's a big
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: man hunt. He finally gets caught, goes to jail, escapes.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: It's a great story. Years go by. He gets caught
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: dumpster diving somewhere, goes back to jail, gets out. He
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: wanted his privacy and they let him loose, and he
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: just vanished into the ether. Now no one knows where
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: I thought they got him. They did. They got him twice.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you should they got him the first time,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: they got him the second time. Then he served his time,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and people like I cannot believe you're gonna let out
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: of jail a man who killed him. But here's the
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: thing people like, like when I was a kid, like
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: hell Billies, Like I hesitate to say this, but like
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of like total hell Billies looked up to
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Claude Dallas. Right, He's a cult hero, which is disgusting
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: really because I was even guilty of as a little
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: kid because Trapper and Predator color magan Is would do
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: articles about Claude Dallas and they'd be like, you know,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: he really shouldn't kill game wardens, but you know there's
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: something to be said for living out in the desert
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: trap bobcats. And it was like and people acted like that,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: there was like sort of like up in the air
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: whether or not this guy was a good guy. I
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: think that rather than let him out of jail, I
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: think they should have snuck a twenty two selling behind
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: his ear right. And you know, that's similar thing with D. B. Cooper,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: where he's got cult hero status and people seem to
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: forget the fact that he you know, pretended that he
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: was going to blow up an aircraft. Um, he gets
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: off a little bit because he let them, didn't hurt people,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: let the passengers ago, but he's still I mean, you know,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: it's funny how Yeah, we gravitate towards characters even or figures,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: historical figures, even when they're you know, immoral, but if
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: they Claude Dallas is like inexcusable man, Right, But yeah,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: we grew up like when we were little kids and
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: that was all going on. We thought he was a badass,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: which is kind of disgusting. So well, I won't write
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: that one then, right about that, right about that would
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: be like the end. You know how in the end
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: of your Crockett book you step back and look at
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the mythos of Crockett, right, like, how how Davy Crockett
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: kind of became remembered. And you've been talking about Davy
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Crockett generated like adjusted for inflation, back to that subject,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Davy Crockett generated more revenue in the nineteen fifties than
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: uh G, I Joe right, Superman, Batman, Bigger Business. I
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: think I forget the numbers, but it was. I wrote
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: it down right here because I know I don't want
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: to get in trouble because you wrote the book a
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: long time ago. Uh in today's dollars three billion in
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: nineteen I think it was like in nineteen fifty five
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: and today's dollars who have been three billion dollars and
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Davy Crockett paraphernalia, fake coonskin caps. Mainly every kid in
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: America wrote his bike around with a fake coon skin
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: cap on, a little lunch pails and um, you know,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: like rifles and stuff like the ship that comes out
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: like when you when you go to McDonald's and you
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: like there's like a happy meal offering and they're like
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: in cahoots with a movie that came out like that
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: kind of garbage. Yeah, we call it merch these days. Yeah, yeah,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: licensed licensed Crockett merge. Right. In fact, you're talking about
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: swinging back around. I mean it's probably get bad to
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: call DA. Do you think you're gonna write the book
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: or not? I don't read that book so faster to
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: make your I know you and about well, I don't
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: know the market. Um, it's come up in my in
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: my research before that. You know, I like, um, I
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: like figures that are sort of controversial. You know, people
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: still think he's badass. Yeah, if I ran into I
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: don't want to shirt or something, you know, you might
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: be a good way to get your ask Kire. It
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: depends on where you are. Uh, okay, you were to
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: say about Crockett. I'm not ready to talk about crock
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: You we might to throw it out there now that well,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: And I was gonna say how I got to Crockett.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So how I got how? I because I didn't Um.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up in California for you know,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: a short period. My dad was from Louisiana and he
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: moved to California, doctor um and uh he was a
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: general practitioner, um and catch him Idaho after after we
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: left California. But I was I was in there in
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: the sixties during the Crockett craze, so I could see
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: it was were you guys in catch him? When Hemingway
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: killed himself and catch him? That was like sixty three
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: later later. Yeah, I grew up with the Hemingways and
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Jack Hemingway. Hemingway's eldest son was my French teacher actually,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: and um, his daughter Mary l was a classmate of
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: mine and um private school that I went to. But
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: before we have you seen uh no, what's that movie?
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Was Dwight Yoakum John Prine not Dwight Yoakum, John Prime,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Muriel Hemingway and and uh John Mellencamp Falling from Grace
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. I better Yeah, we're good. Go on.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Um anyway, week, so we we moved. Um, I was
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: around the Crockett craze as a kid, and I just
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: sort of, you know, you couldn't escape it. I mean
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: we lived, we lived, you know, twenty minutes from Disneyland
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: and it was all happening. And then my dad moved
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: us to Idaho, um in nineteen seventy, and you know,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I was like, you sort of left that part behind.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: But much later, Um, when I started, I had written
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: this chucker book. So my you know, I learned, I
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: learned hunting and fishing from my dad and um, and
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I decided to write this book about chucker hunting. And
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: as it turned out, you know, it was like a
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: pretty niche you know, is there a not a lot
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: of Um, it's not a great market for a book
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: on chucker hunting. No, there's not a lot of I mean,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: if you added up how many people self when you
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: asked someone like, what are you into and they say chuckers? Yeah,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Like what's a chucker? Anyway? You know, it was five
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: thou Yeah. Yeah. So but anyway, I wanted to I
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: had a lot of my first story I ever wrote.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: I was thirteen years old and it was about bird
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: hunting and it had a chucker in it. So I
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: was my dad was a big time chucker hunter. So
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: I end up writting this book like you were in
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: the trap, where it felt to you like very foundational, right,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: because this one thing everybody knows about chuckers. And you know,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not kidding you. He's he knew a lot about shuckers,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: and he knew a lot of but he he was
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: a great and he's still he's out hunting. And my
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: nold man is in uh deal in Montana hunting ducks today.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: I was telling your honest, he'll be eighty eight on Monday,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and he's just hunts, I mean, every single day if
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: you can. But so we end up I end up
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: writing this book about chucker hunting, and so I'm thinking, well,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I needed, you know, when we get do with that.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: So I was trying to get an agent at the time,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and uh so I sent it to this agent in
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: New York named Scott Waxman, who was a friend of friends. Yeah,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: and so he he calls me up after he read
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: book and he calls me and he's like, and there's
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: a you know, like in two thousand or something to that,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: when I, you know, got a flip phone and I
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: pull over and he's like, what are you doing? And
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I said, well, I just pull over, got cell coverage here,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I'm out. I'm out pheasant hunting. And he's like he
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: was you know, he's a New Yorker. He's certainly enamored
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: with the romance of the Western idea, you know. So
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: he's like, I did you write this great book about
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: chucker hunting and you're out pheasant hunting and seemed pretty
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: into hunting, and and I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: I just pull your kind of cramping in my hunt
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: right now, frankly. And but you know, he said, listen,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: who's the greatest hunter in American history? And I was like, well,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: it's gotta either be Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett, you know.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: And he said, well, why don't you go look and
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: see if there's been a book recently about either of
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: those guys. There was a somebody had written a book
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: about Boone. I think it's Robert Morgan's name, had written
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: a book about Boone, you know, kind of recently. And
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: then I look and there hadn't been anything on Crockett
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: in like fifty years, like a biography, right, So I
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: called him back and I said, how about Crockett, you know,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: and he's like done, Yeah. I mean Crockett was more
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: talk about hunting, you know, um politician hunter. But you know,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Crockett created the mystique of I mean listen, we're still
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: talking about him today and uh so, but it worked
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: out great. So but Chrucker Hunting book led to a
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: book about one of the great frontiersmen in American history.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I was really happy with that. You know, hey, your
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: new book coming out. Okay, here this I'm gonna leave
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: this up to you. This is gonna be like chef's choice,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: author's choice. I want to I want to talk. I
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: want to do crash course on Crockett. And here's why. Um,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I've read everything there is to read about Boone. Oh yeah,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: right down, like the Draper manuscripts, all that kind of stuff. Right,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: I was Crockett ignorant. And what started me down needing
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: to know about Crockett was that I would talk about
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: what sort of a ship talk er Crockett was and
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Texans get so mad. Real man, my friend Jesse Griffith's
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: it's like he turns kind of red if you say
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: something bad about with anger, if you say something bad
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: about Crockett. So that led me to think he's a
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: reasonable dude. That led me to think that I needed
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: to go read up on Crockett because I also knew
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: that there was like a little bit of a mystery.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Talk about a mystery, you wanna talk about DV Cooper?
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Did he die at the Alamo? At the Alamo? What
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: did Crockett like go down in a hail of bullets fighting?
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Or as some people now think, was Crockett captured and
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: and and and surrendered? Well? Right, and those your Texas
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: friends do not want to hear anything about it. They're
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: getting away, you know. So I needed to know more
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: about Uh. That led me to want to know more
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: about Crockett. And it's also the connection is connecting to
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: people's heads. Is even like the organization, the conservation organization
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett, right, which kind of bundles them together
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: in a way that they don't. They shouldn't. They have
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: no business being bundled together. I agree with that. I
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: mean they were only I think I mean they're they're
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: separated by a few decades anyway. Um, yeah, like the
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: height of Boone's adventures were around We're around the Revolutionary War. Yeah,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: well before I mean Crockett died at the Alamo in
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: you know, eighteen with thirty six, um, and you know,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I think that but as far I love that question,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you know, about whether or not what actually happened um
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: at the Alamo, because they're so much tied to you know,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Texans tie so much to that going down in a
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: blaze of glory mythology that is, it's almost it's really
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: interesting when you look at history, how well is that
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: really what happened? Um. You know a lot of the
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: it's unfortunate, but a lot of the research suggests that, um,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: you know, he may well have just surrendered and been executed,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: you know. And then they you know, they were at
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that point, Um they were the Mexicans were piling them
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: up and making funeral pyres out of them, you know,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: And so nobody really wants to remember Crockett that way,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: you know. And you know, when they did the film
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: The Alamo was ten years ago with Billy Bob Billy
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Bob Thornton, it winds up being that the only man
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: stand his Crockett, and it wasn't so much like he's surrendered.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: He just got captured, right and so you and then
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: he's very defiant. Oh yeah, ship talks Santa Anna. Yeah yeah.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: They killed him with they kill him with bayonets. Yeah.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: I mean I had to make sure, actually was very
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: careful that that movie came out while I was in
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: the finishing stages of the manuscript, and I made sure
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: not to watch. I mean, I didn't want Billy Bob
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: in my head as like that this is who, even
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: though he was a great Crockett, but like I'm sitting
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: there trying to you know, I thought he did a
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: great job. Me too, but not a great movie. But
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: he did a great job. He did a great he
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: steals the show, as he always does. But I didn't
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: want to have like my Crockett that was in my
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: brain be overtaken by you know, um, Carl Schilders and
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Sling Blight or something, you know, with biscuits and mustard.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't want that at all. So I was like,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: so I watched it. After I watched it, after um
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I had finished the manuscript, and then I was like, okay,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: you know, damn, he kind of nails it. But as
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: far as what actually happens there, you know, I think
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: it's hard not to get swept up with the mythos,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: right because it's a better ending. You know, if he
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: goes down firing at you know, they're out numbered, you know,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: fifty to one or whatever. It is maybe more than that. Yeah,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: and so, um, a lot of the North part of
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: the album, I didn't realize the amount of being drunk
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: and being sick. Oh yeah, those god, I mean you're yeah,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: these guys are just like they're either drunk or mortally ill. Right,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: They've got dysentery and yeah, I mean it's horrible. Right.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: So all right, I was gonna ask you if you
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: wanted to talk about the Greeley Expedition, which, dude, it's
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: given me nightmares, man, it should. Yeah, So let's talk
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: about Crocker first, all right, then we'll talk about the
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Greeley Expedition, which is your new this is your forthcoming book, right, So,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Labyrinth of Ice, The Triumphant and Tragic Greeley Polar Expedition
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: is coming out on December three. Um, and it's I'm
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: really thrilled. Um, it's it was an tremendous project, unbelievable story.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: It has basically everything that I don't think it should
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: come out in December because to read about being this
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: cold when it's cold out, it's disturbing. It should be
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: like a summer read. Yeah, look at my thumb. I
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: frols my thumb. Oh you're wow. Yeah, there's a ton
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: of frostbite in this book. Yeah, it frols my thumb
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: and now the skin is coming off of it. And
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: reading about these dudes, these dudes foot, he freezes his
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: feet so bad. Oh my god, he can't look and
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: eventually his foot falls off. They don't even tell him,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: and he's still talking about how his foot tingles. That's
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: just like the horrible stuff. And then they like tether
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: a fork to this guy's hand so that he can
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: eat like by himself. They've been feeding him, you know.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, we'll talk about we'll talk about. But here's
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: the thing you always hear about. Here's like Arctic like
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Arctic explores and Antarctic explores. Like if you don't really
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: you always hear like, oh, you know, they go there
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: and they die, like oh of course, you know. But
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: to really understand this, such a good job of explaining
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: like step by step by step, day by day by day,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: like what exactly goes wrong, and it's what goes wrong
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: is complex, very complex, and it's not just like, oh,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: you went somewhere real cold and died. It's like governmental
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: failures upon governmental failures, and like like not understanding the
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: climate well and not understanding like what's normal in the
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Arctic and abnormal in the Arctic, and it's let's talk
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: serious of unfortunate events. Feel you want a job, you
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: never have nothing to do? It depends what's that? That
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: was a double negative? Gonna send me to the Arctic?
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: No one? You didn't turn your clock on? Thank you
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: to uh you gotta let us know when we need
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: to switch to still have time to talk about Labyrinth
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: of Ice after you talk more about Crockett. Okay, Okay,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I'm mostly because you wrote You read the book a
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: long time ago. You wrote the book a long time ago,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: so you're a little bit of a disadvantage. But I
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: was gonna ask you about some things about Crockett. Right
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: you said, we'll see how well you hold up. Okay,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm game because of as a writer. If I
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: wanted to do an interview and some guy wanted to
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: talk about something I wrote a million years ago. I'd
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: be pissed. I know, I'm I'm well, I'm a little bitter,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: but but I want to work around it. I actually
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: was primed slightly because a couple of years ago, I
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: was I was a talking head on a History Channel
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: show that um actually there was was well that this
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: one was exactly I was on the other side of
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I was the person being interviewed. I was a Crockett
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: guy on a show called The Frontiersman, the Man who
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Built America. That I was one of the boon guys. Yeah, okay,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: well that's where I thought. And so I was a
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Crockett guy. But you know, it was one of those
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: things where I was I was freaked out because at
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: the same what you're talking about. I mean, I had
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: written this book in you oh one or between oh
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: one and oh three, and then it came out and
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: oh five, and then here I'm being you know, you're
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: the Crockett guy, so let's hear about it. And I'm thinking,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: got it. You know, I should probably um go read
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: my book, but anyway, I'm game. Yeah, I'll make it up.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: If I don't remember Okay, I'll tell you something that
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: struck me about Crockett's biography that learned about your book.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: The fact that his old man, the PA I got
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: the people in general were in the practice back then
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: in the early eight hundreds of hiring their children out
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: as indentured servants to settle debts, like like you bought
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: you borrow some money from a guy to buy some cows.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: The cows all drowning, the rivers say, and the guys
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: that I need my money back. How about my boy
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: comes and lives on your place for a year exactly
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: and roots out old stumps and ship in your field,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: and then we'll call it even. And that's how this
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: guy spent his childhood, I know. And the one that
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: blew me away was so his his old man is
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: always in debt, and Crockett was basically always in debt too.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Um just the bad, bad decisions and bad luck, you know.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: And so his old man says, say, you know what
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: you're talking about. He's like, I know this guy, it's
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: a bunch of money. So what if I send a
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: little davy um on a like a cattle drive for
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: four hundred miles. That's gonna last months? Right, and Crocketts,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: this little kid, you know, fourteen or think he was twelve,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: and so he's like hoofing along, you know, prod and cattle, um,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: and staying in in like roadhouses and like watching men
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: drinking and horrorn and Crocketts, you know, just sitting there
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: as a little kid. You're right, I mean he was.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: He was gone for months at a time, and um,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: he gave me some ideas about like some stuff I
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: should have probably done better with my son. You know,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: he's not you could have made a lot like but no,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: you're right, I mean, it wasn't. It was such an
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: amazing time where you would just do whatever you had
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: to do, and it was not uncommon two you know,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: sort of sholl out your kid for I think one point.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: He was gone for two years. Yeah, that's I was
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: gonna mention that that he like he he got in
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: a bunch of troll he like smart. I can't remember
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: what he did. He pissed his dad off, and his
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: dad kicked his ass. Yeah, well, so he kept he
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: was playing hooky, right, So he was playing hooky. Oh yeah,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: he said they're paying for him to go to school,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: but he wasn't going to school to school. He would
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: go off it. He would head off to school and
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: then just not go to school. And his old man
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: at one point um caught wind of this, uh, and
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: he was like waiting for him on the on the
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: road back to the house, and his dad like whooped
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: up on him with a cane stick, you know. And
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: then Crockett he uh, he let out for a little
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: while there. Yeah, and this is like when he was
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: coming into he's coming of age. Yeah, stay has gone
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: so long. This is where it's like almost like a
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: fake story. So here he'd done all this like indentured service,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: you would, just to satisfy his dad's As his dad
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: kicks his ass, he takes off for years ages works
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: odd jobs like working on mule trains and wagon things,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: and almost got on a boat and sailed, you know,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: tried to go to Europe, try to go to Europe,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: but his other boss wouldnt let him off the hood. Unbelievable.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: All this crazy stuff happens. But it's like it's out
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: of like Homer's Odyssey. It's kind of like a stick.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: It's like the products like the Prodigal Sun deal a
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: little bit where Crockett goes back and he's he's been
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: gone so long that he's able to go back and
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: go into his family and not tell anyone who he is, right,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: and they actually get away with it, right, And he's
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: sitting in a in a like a but they would
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: call it. It wouldn't be a cafe, but like a
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: you know, like a roadhouse, and his sister recognized him.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: It recognized him, and then they're like, oh my god,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: it's David, you know. And at that point he makes
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: he's really funny, you know, Crockett is very funny. But
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: he makes some comment about how like, yeah, I think
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: it had been gone long enough that my old man's
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: ire was probably down by now, you know, but you
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: still remember the caning, so you know, he's like still
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: looking over his shoulder a little bit. And then went
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: off sells a bunch more debts. And then another thing
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: that like just kind of walking through like how this
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: guy's life went is um the degree to which when
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: he sets out like in those days from we should
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: established like he's like a frontier character. These are all
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: like like like Boone's family, These are like transient people's
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: absolutely explain how they're always living somewhere and getting displaced
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: and living somewhere and getting displaced. Right. So you know
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Crocket's life and many of the Um the frontier lifestyle.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: You know, we look at it sort of romantically, but
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: in many cases that was always about land. I mean
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: it still is, but you know what was always about
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: land and then trying to make a go of it, right,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: and a lot of times things didn't work out. You know,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: in many cases Crockett's Um family, uh, he would he
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: would do. He would start in on a project, like
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: they would build a gristmill, right, so they're gonna grind
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: flour and live on on the river and you know,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: have a small plot and you know, stake your claim
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: and make a go of it. But the elements would
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: just always mess with them. So they would have like
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: a you know, a flood right takes out the grist Right,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: So now Crockett's gotta go on, like okay, now he
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: already borrowed all the money to build the thing, right, right,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: so now he's like dead again. So they would move,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: you know, just up and go and then move on
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: to the next thing. And it just became this perpetual
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: um westward movement. In fact, I mean his his entire
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: life was a westward move. And that's one of the
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: things that you know, I found interesting about like how
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: he finally goes to the Alamo because he was ultimately
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: just still looking for more land. He was looking for
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: a new start. It was his whole life is about
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: finding making a new start. His old man too. And
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: that was the thing I kind of got because I
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: knew that was with like, you know, several decades earlier
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: with Boone, where they'd always be going like on the
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: American frontier, you don't guys have people who are poor
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: and yearning to like make their way right, like sort
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: of capitalism at work, and they'd always be moving to
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: a place they kind of weren't supposed to be in
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Boone's area, was like because the British had said the
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: British had a lot of Indian allies west of the Appalachians,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: and the British said, we don't want any of our
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: American columnists like, don't go over there. And what is
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the first thing that they do is they're like, well,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go over there, So I'll go there and
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: live and I'll they'll sort it out, and they'll eventually
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: sort it out in the end, and there's always like
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: people um. And then it continues in Crocketts are people
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: like sort of jump on the gun, like the Louisiana
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: purchase happens, and they haven't like we did the purchase,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: but weren't really clear on what we bought, and they're
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: just already like people just immediately start moving into these places,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: being like it'll work out. Yeah, let's send Lewis and
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Clark and to see how much we actually have. Yeah,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: and people people are like, well, dude, already moved there,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: so right. Well, in in Crockett's case, it gets complicated
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: too by the you know the fact that there were
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Indian people's already living there, right, so you know, not
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: even supposed to be there from that perspective to right.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: And one of the things I really found endearing about
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Crockett um is his you know, he he was a
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: complicated figure, but so he was very sensitive to um
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: even though he had spent some time you know, under
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson like going off hunting up you know, he
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: used to put it that way, like hunting up Indians. Yeah,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: they used the term like he got sent down to
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Florida in the Creek War, kill up kill up some
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Engines Indians. Yeah, and so but you know, even within that,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: I think he had a lot of reverence for UM.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: The fact that you know, he lived off the land.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: They lived off the land he was for you know,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: so I had firsthand knowledge of and learned from tribes
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: of the encountered. And you know, he he was the
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: only UM delegate, I believe, yeah, in the that voted
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: against the Indian Removal ACTUM from Tennessee. So like he
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: had a huge political price, right, and so you know,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: he got he got that struggle and he understood that
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: because he had spent his whole life, you know, in
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: hard scrabble existence just trying to eke out something UM.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: And you know, so that's one of the things that
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: I really found UM. I connected with that element of him,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: you know, persona uh. And I want to talk about
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: his political career a little bit. But a thing about
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: his political career is like kind of his sort of
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: his foundational thing. Like if you imagine like universal healthcare
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: being like Obama's thing, right, Obamacare, that was his thing.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Crockett's thing as a congressman was to basically legitimize squatters, right,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: because he was the cheap squatter, like to legitimize all
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: those people that headed off in the wilderness and weren't
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: really like clear where they were, who owned what, and
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: they like built a cabin to like give them the land.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: And that was sort of his thing. That was like
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: his thing, and he could never drive it across hold
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: it off. And you know what I found really interesting
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: about that is that through all that process, I mean,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: he was basically kind of representing the common man, you know,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: he was, he was a representative of the common man.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Um And you're right, I mean he never really he didn't.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: He was He failed to pass basically any um any bills.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: He was always out hunting, you know, he preferred um,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: he preferred hunting uh to politicking. But he ended up
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: being very good at politicking, right, So he he was
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: he was able to create this kind of mystique and persona.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: And I mean I call him like the first celebrity.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can maybe say that Benjamin Franklin was
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the first celebrity. Yeah, but you use a use the
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: term you talked about. That's why I feel it was
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: interesting to look at his political career and then uh,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: look at Trump's political career. Can you talk about the
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Crockett was the first American to be famous for being famous, right.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I mean people knew people liked him because they just
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: knew that he was famous, right. And I mean we're
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: talking about, you know, at a time when um in
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: newspaper was moved very slowly across the frontier, right, and
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: information the passage of information was done you know, on
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: horseback and through on riverboats. Right. And so you've got
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: a guy who was it's profound. He was able to
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: create such um, a frenzy and a mystique about himself.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I mean plays were written about him during his lifetime.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: He went he went to a play watching a guy
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: playing him, you know, and he's in the audience and
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: he's like, um, I, you know, I am nobody. There
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: was not the term celebrity at the time, but um,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I don't believe. But you know, he was able to
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: become such a commodity that people would line the streets
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: when they heard he was coming, and you know he
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: like reach out to try to touch him as he
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: went by, you know, and then he would be fetted
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: and he would be you know, given all sorts of uh,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: you know, honorary awards and he hadn't really ever done anything.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I do you have anyone? No? Yeah. I
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: want to back up a little bit to talk about
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: when he kind of comes of age and he's a
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: young man and he sets out very deliberately to find
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: a wife, and it's a it's a really good way
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: of like thinking about how frontier cultures worked, and like
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: frontier situations worked where people were so pragmatic. There's a
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: quote you have in the book that I've been using
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: all the times, my new favorite quote. No one knows
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: what the hell it means, but it's, um, you gotta
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: salt the cow if you want to catch the cat,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: help the cow to catch the cap. So like he's
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: like pragmatic transactional relationships that would happen within frontier communities
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: where it's like I have a daughter, Um, this could
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: probably fetch me a good if I play my cards right,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: I should be able to wrangle this daughter into a
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: helpful son in law. And he's like, I'm a helpful man.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I gotta do sure, like to get my hands on
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: your daughter. And it's like it's like you're it's like
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: you're buying cat. Yeah, And I mean that term you
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: use pragmatic is so appropriate, and it's true. It's like, um,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: you know, what do you got? What am I gonna
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: give you for it? Um? You know? And uh yeah,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: he was really the whole salt the cow to catch
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: the calf was funny because Crockett understood that if the mother,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: if he sweep talked the mom, right, he was flirting
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: with them. He was flirting with the mom. You know,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: he was working the mom and and then you know
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: he had to win her over, uh you know, assault
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: to get the calf to get his bride. You know,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: I was a real mis you had. In the book.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: There's sex lives. Were they promiscuous? That's does anyone talk
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: like is there any way to know like when they're
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: courting and and sneaking around in the woods and having
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: like little chats, but plotting and figuring are they having
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: sex or not? I'm guessing they're having sex. Yeah, So
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: you think there was there was promiscuity on the frontier, Yeah,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: almost certainly. Listening they don't Lewis and Clark. There was
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of promise that expedition. Crockett, you know, was
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: very careful in crafting his own image. So he wrote
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: his his own um autobiography like during his lifetime, knowing
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: that it was going and he and he was like
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: he really funny. He's like I wanted to be over
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: two hundred pages. That was If it was two hund pages,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: it was worthwhile. It's like pretty random, but I don't
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: know that was the measure of a good book to
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: oh to becoming in on. So Crockett was like crafted
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: this um very carefully, and so you know he when
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: he talks about like courtship and he's a little coy
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: about that stuff. And I think there was a kind
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: of yeah, like like yeah, Lewis and Clark, Yeah, they
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: don't know how they phrase it. They don't intimate. But
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: then you later learn children they like siren kids and
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: and those things like you could there's like sort of
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: this nineteen fifties version of what frontiers people were like, right,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: I mean they're doing it in the woods of course, yeah, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: But he read this progress like, man, these people are greasy,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: double dealing. Yeah, not like not patriotic, not necessarily because
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: like the idea of the US is still taking shape, right, yeah,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: kind of like what country man, sure, Americans, I don't know.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I mean they got land. Don't you think it's just
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: because survival trumped all that other stuff? Yeah, just like
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: there was yeah, like drunkenness, Yeah, probably, Yeah. I don't
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: think there was a lot of time to ponder patriotism
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: when you're trying to figure out like how you're gonna
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: eat that night, you know, yeah, or if you're gonna
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: you know, if you're gonna be able to have shelter. Um,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: it was tough, and he was kind of I was
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: surprised too, is he was sort of on the fence
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: about religion, had a hard time with it. Yeah. Yeah,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: I mean and I tried at times, tried at times
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: to become more fightful, struggled with his lack struggled with
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: his own lack of faith. Yeah, well don't don't some
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: of us people do. Yeah, I mean he's honest about
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: that too, Um, because you know, I think at that
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: at that time, you know, it was very important too.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, faith was such an anchoring part of one's
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: life on the frontier. I mean you had that, you know,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: you had family faith. But yeah, he he struggled with it.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: He didn't really talk too much about it as a
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: matter of fact. I mean in terms of his own
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: he's sort of ambivalent. Yeah, but there's were there were
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: rumors that he was a flanderer, and rumors that he
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: was a drunk. Yeah yeah, and rumors that he was like,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: you know, the greatest shot in the West. But it's
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: like or you know what they called the West at
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: the time. Uh. He and he did win, um you know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: he won some shooting competitions and it was a big
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: badge of honor back then. You know, you would you'd
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: go to a shooting competition and like win a cow,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: you know that they come home leading the cow. Hefer,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's like, uh, okay that I mean
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: that that's currency. Yeah. He did get involved in some
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: really horrific Indian wars. Yeah, Like his life really changed
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: after that. What's that Fort Sims? Yeahs. There's a scene
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you read that scene when there's
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: a section that I almost can't read anymore when he
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: recalls what happened there, um because he so they they're
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: retaliating for a massacre that had happened. Um. Crockett's in
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: this small band of um you know, so called Indian fighters. Yeah.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: But yeah, but I was I can't remember, I wish
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: I had it from the name of the someone's got
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: looked this up. Forms the four Mims was were the
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Creeks came into massacred the whites, and in the whites
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: retaliated the This is like total warfare, no kidding, Yeah,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: And Crocett was on this um small squad that came
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: in for retaliation, and they they had been told that
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: there were a bunch of Creek Indians at this actually
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: they had the Creek Indians had overtaken before and we're
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: still there. And so there were women and children, and
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: um Crockett in a bunch of men came in and
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: he says, you know, we shot them like dogs, and
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: he there's a really sort of horrific image that I
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: can never shake. Um the potato things, Yeah, talking about
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: the potato thing. So there's like a potato cellar and
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: these uh they light they shoot all the Indians and
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: then they light these buildings on fire. And Crockett describes
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: the Greek they ended up eating the potatoes, and he
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: describes that the grease from these humans that has um
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: basically melted from the fires, ripped down and sort of
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: season these spaces buds. It's freaking brutal, man, there's some
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: all those masakers you get like now like in the
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: wars we have now with the the rules of engagement,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: you know, and we talk about how horrific war is now.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: I think here's the point I'm trying to get at.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: When you read about the American Frontier and it moved
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: right at this point, the American frontiers, I mean, northern
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Florida is part of the American Frontier at this time.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: For the last people to talk about, Oh, politicians are
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: so crooked now or we're so violent now, dude, Oh man,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: the crookedness and atrocities that people would commit in those
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: times to like just go into a village of people
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: not like not like, not like it's something would get
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: prosecuted for war crimes to be celebrated. You'd go into
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: a village and do total warfare, meaning to kill every man,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: woman and child you can get your hands on, and
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: then burn every piece of evidence that they ever existed,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: and eat the spuds, eat the spuds, and then go
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: to the next town. Right. And but I will say
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: that crockett Um he seemed to authentically feel guilt about
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: that and shaken you know, and and and you know,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: I mean who wouldn't be But like in those days, yeah,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: I mean we would you think of it as just
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: you could move on, you know. But we now know
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: that you know, what with with soldiers coming back from
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: war and PTSD and um that you know, any human
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: who perpetrates that kind of violation on another human, no
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: matter how you're going to justify it in your mind
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: as being you know, your job in the army, Um,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: it's going to leave a mark. There's two contemporary westerns
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: they come out recently, Um, The Sisters Brothers, which is
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Joaquin Phoenix and John c Riley, which I think is
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: a fun nominal Western, and then the Christian Bale One West,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Douicy Hostiles, Student Duty. Uh, both of those movies. It's
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: like every every like Westerns always due for us, Like
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: every generation gets thrown Western hopefu. Okay, So you may like, like,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: you know, like in the seventies, a Western in the
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: seventies felt like the seventies, right. I was like, Oh,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: but you guys, Sunday as a kid, it's like, oh,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: they're smart talkers, They're like they're you know, detached, like
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: the party, right, right, that's what a westerns. And now
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: these two contemporary westerns, what they're mostly about is the
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: fact that everybody on the frontier had PTSD. Yeah, they're
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: all just walking around like it's like but it's a
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: revelatory of course they did. You look at like the
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: things that and Crockett wasn't even like a hard driving
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: like he was hired into the military to be a
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: hunter to shoot meat for the army, but he still
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: had exposure to things that just like things that no
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: person sees, right, it's you know, like burn, like piling
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: up dead women and children and piles and torturing the
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: piles of them, and it's just like, yeah, I mean,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: like no ship like you hadn't been a mess or
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: there were I mean maybe certain people have the ability
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: to compartmentalize it, you know in ways that um it's
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: harder to do anymore. I don't know, But do you
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: like it has to be that there had like violence. Okay,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: here's the way you're looking at it. And this is
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: the point I brought before, Phil. How many dead people
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: have you seen? A lot? Three? But you know they've
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: all been made up and putting about going about your business.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Ne's a dead Person zero. I've seen a handful, um
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: just freakently. I was at a old lady's birthday party
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: once in the cater fell dead. I watched my dad die,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: some car crash victims, airplane crash victims. But I feel
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: like I've run into a lot of it. A lot
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: of people you can go to. You can live to
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: be thirty four years old and not see dead people.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: But these guys, I'm surprised they can get around with
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: all the dead people laying. Everybody's dead and die and
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: and at much younger age. Your wife, My wife died,
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: she was having a baby and she's dead, and hauled
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: her out back and like, yeah, the kids die. You
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: could say that they are inured to it in some way,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: you know. Death. Yeah, it was. It was all over
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: the place, and um, that's what a lot of the
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: you know, I think Westerns don't sort of focus on.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Really it's like the you know, the impact of that
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: kind of thing. Watched Sisters Brothers. I'm psyched. Yeah, I'm sorry.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just I'm like the last person in
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: the world to have just finished Deadwood. You know, I
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: heard there's the movies coming out, so I was like,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: I better catch up and watch the show Sisters Brothers
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: is phenomenal, but it didn't do well and people are like, oh,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: it's the death of the Western. I don't know, I
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: think Western's a ride again. Yeah, let's let's keep moving along.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Crocott had bad malaria, Yeah, well, but didn't everybody didn't
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: know what malaria was, right, So a lot of times
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: that's why when you were is funny we're talking about earlier,
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: how everybody was, you know, just lying around either drunk
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: or sick, and partly drunk and sick or drink trying
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: to drink through your sickness. Um, but you know everybody
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: had malaria, not everybody, but you know, there wasn't really
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: um a remedy for malaria at the time. Um in
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: the fact that look that up when you know, when
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: did uh malaria medicine when they called the billious Billius
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: fevers the billiest fever you know, and so people are just, um,
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: he's out there trying to do his businesses, out there,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: trying to hunt out there, trying to get food, trying
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: to build cabins, and you know they're like shaking feverishly
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: and not able to hold her food and you know. Yeah,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: it's funny too because like he had been down in Florida,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: but he's also in Tennessee. So's he's got he's got malaria.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: Then at times he's almost freezing to death, but having
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: about of malaria, right then they can you know, still
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: got it and he's right think of it. You think
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: of it as tropical, right, right, Yeah, I mean it's
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: my god, some of those stories where he's like really
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: sick and he's out in the woods, um, and he
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: breaks through the ice and he gets you know completely Um.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Basically he's walking around hypothermic and in order to he's
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: hypothermic and it's got malarial and from fevers. But then
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: he punch right yeah, and so to stay warm. I
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: love this one sequence when he oh, shimmy is up
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: this tree like multiple times and then he will shimmy
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: up to the top of the tree which doesn't have
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of branches on it, and then he slides
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: down it to create weren't punish his body by the
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: friction of sliding down the freaking tree. Yeah, he's stuck
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: out in the woods overnight, and he says that he
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: a hundred times climbed it and shimmied it to warm
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: the inside of his legs, arms, and belly with the
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: friction to not die. He's like becomes It's a good
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: trick man. Yeah. I mean you might try it on
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: one of your next hunch if you get frostbitten. His uh,
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: he had a lot. He had something like interesting hunting
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: things that The thing that surprised me too, is uh
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: you talked about this? Is it his uncle? I think
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: his mom's brother was out hunting once and see something
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: moving in the grapes and see something moving, it thinks
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: it's a bear picking grapes, shoots it and it's his neighbor.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: And Crockett says, how his dad put a silk handkerchief.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: How how this came up, I don't know. Put a
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: silk handkerchief into one side of him and drew it
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: out the other side of him. Everyone thought the guy
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: would die. It's like, yeah, flosses like flosses the whole
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: out with a silk handkerchief. The guy lives, and no
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: one quite knows what I happened doing, but he got
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: better and went away. Yeah. I love that at that scene,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: And but you want to think, like when someone shoot,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: when a hunter shoots a person thinking it's game. I'm
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: always like, not only did you think it was a deer,
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: you thought it was a buck and you thought you
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: were aiming at its lungs. So a person and now
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: their gut shot. Uh. Yeah. Crockett was always great at
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: the at the detail. I mean, you know the image
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: of that handkerchief passing through this, the whole through this awesome.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Uh he uh. He like he did kill a hell
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: of a lot of bears. The numbers of black bears
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: are pretty staggering. And it's like at various times in
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: his life he'd try to get businesses gone, but he'd
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: always kind of resort to going He'd like, we go hunting,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: market hunting. Yeah. It was like he's that's what he
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: liked to do. And so everything to go to ship
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: you take off and go hunt. Everything goes. It takes off,
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: go hunting. He talks about he found out what you do? Yeah. Uh.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: He finds a guy who Crockett one of his hunting
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: expeditions finds a guy who has hired on with a
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: landowner to dig stumps and roots to grub out a field.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: And he's like, why are you doing this work? And
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: grubbing out the field. The guess says, I don't have
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: any money. I can't buy any meat for my family.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: So Crockett talks the dude into working for him, packing
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: bear meat and salt in it, and they go off
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: that day and they kill four bears. They hunt for
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: another week and they kill seventeen more bears, and as
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: payment for the week's bear hunting labor, Crockett sends the
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: man home with one thousand pounds of bear meat, which
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: the man and his family then eight for a year.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: At one point, crock and his hunting partners go out
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: in the fall kill fifty eight bears. The bears hibernate,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: they come out in the spring, they go back out
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: and kill forty seven. So that year he killed a
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: hundred and five black bears. And you point out, as
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: much as like Crockett was prone to a little bullshit,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: you say that it was confirmed by a host of
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: his contemporaries that they had had a hell of a
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: year that year. Yeah, Banner, hundred and five black bears.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: What's the most that they've ever been taken in the
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: state of Montana in one year. That's gotta that's a
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: great question. Yeah, well, I mean I guess, I mean
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: if there was, Yeah, he would have put a big
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: dent in. So they put a big dent in the
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: contemporary Annual Harvest Tennessee. Yeah, And I always wondered, you know,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: to what extent. Obviously Crockett was, um a teller of
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: tall tales now but boom boom bags that up, boon kill.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: They'd kill a hunter bears a year. I mean there
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: were a lot of bears running around, and he said,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: who talking about killing thirteen in a day once with
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: humb but yeah, you guys his hunting with hounds, Yeah yeah,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: and uh like large packs of hounds. Yeah, I mean
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: very effective. The Crockett also claims to kill a bear
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: with his knife. Um you know that that is um, well,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: he he shoots it and then he has it cornered, prettiable,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: his version of his pretty believable. He gets in it,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: cripples it up, and it gets into a hole and
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: he turns into a skirmish. But he It's funny you
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: were talking about the the how he was rooting out
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: those stumps. He always had these these phrases that are
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: kind of memorable, but you never know what the hell
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: he's exactly talking about like they're rubbing, rubbing out of field.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: But then he said, yeah, you got a rut hogger die,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Like okay, I don't, Yes you do. That's good in
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: life advice. I'm starry telling people got a root hogger die.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Son gotta salted cow if you want to cutch the
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: calf soun root hagger die. So the guy gets Crocket
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: eventually gets into politics right accidentally, like people to float
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: his name kind of as a joke. He runs with
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: it and it brings up this weird thing where people
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: like Crockett because he's a hell billy. He's a cane.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: He's from the canes, gentleman from the cane. Yeah, like
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: the cane breaks of the like the frontier. He's like
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: a bear hunter. And he had to play that up
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: right with his constituency, like because he's campaigning on the
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: frontier and people wanted to see like this frontier sensibility
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: that's like, this's like great hunter and it kind of
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: more cared about, Like he would buy votes by buying
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: jugs of whiskey. Oh I love that. One of his
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: great techniques was to you know, he would go, you know,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: did they call him stump speeches. They actually stood on stumps,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: you know, and and and talk to whoever would listen
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: to him, and uh, yeah, he would. He would always
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: let the other person go first. Um, and then he
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: listened to whatever. One time, he just let the other
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: guy go first, and then he like basically recited his
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: whole speech back again. And then but and then during
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: that time, he was um handing out plugs of tobacco,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: chewing tobacco and whiskey, and you know that he was saying, like, here,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: vote for me. He was, I'll give you this and
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: you vote for me. Yes, it sounds like quid pro quo,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: but you know, he was good at it. He added,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: he understood people, and they liked him, you know, like
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: he was a likable guy, and he was a hilarious storyteller,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: and he you know, he would build on the he
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: would elaborate, and I'm sure that he was exaggerating some
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: of the time, but he also understood but human nature
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: and then they wanted to be told a story they
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: didn't want to be told. I don't know what he
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: was going to do for him exactly. I don't think
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: he knew what he was going to do for him.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: Exactly and did nothing tried, But it was an interesting
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: You talk about how it's hard to get around in
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: the frontier back then, and so when two people, two opponents,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: are campaigning, like they're campaigning for a congressional seat, it
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: made sense they had to travel and room together together.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: So it's like Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump traveling together
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: and rooming together at night and arranging campaign speeches too,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: then get up in the morning, have breakfast together, go
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: tear each other a new one in front of an audience,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: and then move on to the next town. And there's like,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: and you're talking about Crockett, he always liked to go
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: second because he was memorable and funny and he just
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: wanted to leave people more. Yeah, it was tough about it.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: One time he's traveled with this guy and he always
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: goes sacking. So he listens to him and eventually he
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: has to go first, and he gets nervous. So what
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: he does, he'd hurt his opponent's speech. So many times
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: he just gives the opponent's speech and leaves the guy
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: with nothing to say because it's like his recited stump
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: speech and Crockett had already given it, right, doesn't have
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: a backup speech, you know that he can just go
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: to and he talks to Like. The thing that Crockett
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: was kind of funny is he's campaigning, he's campaigning against
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: and traveling with a guy who's lost a leg, and
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: the guy has a wooden peg and they got and
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: they're staying in the guy's house and Crockett takes a
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: wooden chair and at night mimics the sound of the
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: wooden The guy with the would like mimics the sound
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: of him walking around own and goes and bangs on
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: the daughter the farmer's daughter's bedroom door. She gets upset
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: and starts yelling, and he makes them with his wooden
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: chair back to his room to create the impression in
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: the farmer's mind that the man who was missing a
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: leg had tried to sneak into his daughter's bedroom and
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: his daughter. Yeah, it's Crockett was diabolical like that, you know. Yeah,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: we talked about how you know, cutthroat politics are now.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, these guys were just they were they were terrible.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: They were terrible. Yeah, he had to play the bumpkin, right,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: but then like everybody who he played the bumpkin and
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: railed against like hated the rich. Yeah, he's so badly
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: wanted to be rich. He wanted to be rich bad Yeah.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, which is like everybody that most people are
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: in that situation, right like when you're poor, you're like
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: a rich people. But like so if I like, so
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: you're telling me right now, if I like, was it
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: like you know what, dude, here here a few million bucks,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: You're like, I don't want it. I hate the rich, dude,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: you'd take it so fast right now. Yeah, But I
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: mean I think he was Crockett was probably torn by
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: that a lot, because you know, he I think what
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: he wanted more was to just be to have the
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: freedom to not always be behind, you know. I think
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: that's what a lot of people want to, to not
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: be in debt just you know, all the time and
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: have that chasing you you know. And so he did
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: what he could, you know, and if that meant like
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: reshaping the way his um persona was, he would you know.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: He was a chameleon. He was just good at being
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: what people wanted to see. Um. Yeah, but uh, I
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: think he did want I don't know that he wanted
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: like finery, you know, because he's the happiest, you know,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: he didn't want to. When you get when you gave
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: Hi an opportunity to do what he really wanted to do.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: He vanished in the woods and go hunt and he's like,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: get my gun and my dogs, I'm going out. You know.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: It's kind of a sad part of his political career
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: as he get to Washington and they turn his uh,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: they turn his hillbilly stuff against him. Like he's had
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: some formal dinner and a waiter goes to clear his
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: plate and he like did or didn't. It's think that
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: the waiter was trying to steal his food. And they
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: had finger bowls back then, and he got thirsty. He
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: was drinking everyway out of the finger bowl and he's like, yeah,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: don't jack my meal, and the guys just trying to,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: you know, take his plate away and he's like, give
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: me that back, man, I have a right. And so
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: they really turned it against him, and that he was
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: like in the finer circles. It was like he was
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: a buffoon and it hurt his feelings. Man. Yeah, I
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: mean you could see that if you if you you know,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: nobody wants to be um made to look like you're
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: not appropriate or that you're not um you don't have
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: the right clothes, or that you you don't have good manners,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: you know. But then they were brutal too because they
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: were just write about it in the papers and say,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: you know the bumpkin buffoon Crockett who tried to drink
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: out of the finger bowl, you know, and then it's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: like totally ruins your your image. And he was all
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: about like building image, and it made you less effective
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: in doing the job of like trying to pass laws.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: She never figured out, no terrible politician. I had a
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: thing happened to me. I was in a I was
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: in Manhattan, and I was with my wife and we
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: went to a restaurant. We're in a big fight. I
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: can't remember. We're fighting about she's super mad at me.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: And I went and it was like there was a
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: bathroom you could member, but she'd know the name of
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: this restaurant. There's a bathroom where there's a uh big
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: circular sink. The right. It's like a fountain, right right,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: and the fountain is communal, it's co ed fountain. But
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: off the fountain is the men's room. In the woman's room.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: But I was a little drunk, and I mean I'm
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: drunk in a fight with my wife, and I come
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: down and I think that I'm in the men's room.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: You're not. I'm at the fountain. Oh man, you're urinating
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: in a fountain. Your name. So a woman comes in
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: and they're aghast. And I had white I had a
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: sweater on, a T shirt. And so she comes in
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: and she's got like, oh my god, what's going on
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: and scurries into the woman's room. And then I'm like,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get found out. So I had a sweater
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: on and a T shirt, and I took my sweater
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: off so I looked. So she's like, he's got a
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: green sweater. They wouldn't have me pegged. But my wife's
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: so mad at me. I get back to the table
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: and I can't be like, you'll never guess what happened.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: You want to tell her? And so I'm sitting there
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: in my T shirt, waiting at any minute to someone
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: come up and strangle me for having like you know,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: what have you done? Yeah, for having exposed myself. And
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: she's like, normally i'd come up and be like, you'll
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: never guess what happened, But because we're in a fight,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: I couldn't really bring it up. And then also and
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: and and also we're at the thing one time, and uh,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: we're we're having They had finger bowls, but they also
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: add these like little things you dip crab in the butter.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: In my mind, I was drinking the butter, right, my
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: wife still she still holds to this day. And I
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: was drinking the contents of the finger bowl. But I
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: was like, no, I was drinking the other little container,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: which was the butter container. And sure you shouldn't drink
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: the butter, but I was drinking the butter. Don't sound
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: was drinking the finger bowl. So when I got into
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: the finger bowl about Crockett, it really like it hit
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: a personal in my bet. So you're you're bumpkin too,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: what a personal note. I want to move on to
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: oh quick thing. Uh we don't really talk about too much,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: but it's interested to like how conflicted Crockett was, like
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: like Jackson Um Jackson wanted to get all this money.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: He wanted dollars because he wanted to relocate Cherokee, Chocks,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: all these people he wanted to relocate him out west.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: Everyone was listening support of it on the frontier and
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Crockett took a massive political hit and thought it was
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: immoral to move him. Yeah he had slaves, man, Yeah
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: he had Yeah, like someone gave his family some slaves. Right,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: But so you think that's a you call it a
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: contradiction and not a contradiction, listen, Man, I really try
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: not to like do the thing that everyone does these days,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: which is take like contemporary notions and then engage people's
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: You don't never get anywhere with that stuff, right, But
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: I mean it's just surprising. Yeah, it is surprising. And
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: it goes back though to his Um. I think, you know,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: maybe some guilt about Um, the Indian city he had
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: previously killed, having firsthand experienced with the way that Um
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: the Indians lived, and he was trying to live basically
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: off the land too. And then you know, you've got
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: this guy who it was also about. He freaking hated Jackson, man,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: he didn't like that guy. And you know here so
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: he was he was kind of Jackson. Jackson snubbed him
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: during the Creek War, right, and you know, Karaket wasn't
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: able to rise up through the ranks. And then they
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: also they were just contentious, like in in the halls
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: of Congress. They were contentious all the time. Crockett like
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: nicknames for him and all them old Hickory and well
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah, he would spins on it. Yeah yeah, but
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: so Croc and I think just you know, wanted to
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: be contrary. Also at that point, he's like, you know,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: if this is what he's going for, I'm gonna But
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: but I think he authentically saw the um that moving
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: people from their homes and displacing them, you know, the
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: hundreds of miles away um was wrong, and he doubled
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: down on it. Yeah, like he you know, that was
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: the end though, Yeah, politically like ends his political career.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: And then later he's like, I would do the same
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: thing today. Yeah yeah, and I don't care who brought
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: it up. Yeah, he says, you know, um, exactly I
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: would cast that vote. It was basically like vote your conscience,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: you know, like the old Ross Pero vote your conscience. Yeah.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: So he he wins a congressional term. Uh, then winds
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: up losing a congressional term. And when he campaigned here's
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: another thing about how like how he'd stick to his
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: word when he was campaigned, and he said, if I
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: don't win, I'm going to Texas. Yeah, I'm done. He says,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: y'all can go to Hell, and I'm going to Texas.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: And he loses. And what does he do. He just
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: strikes out for Texas, rounds up a bunch of his bodies,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: and he's famous, and he starts riding to Texas. And
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: every time he comes to they know he's coming and
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: they're hooting and hollering, and he winds up like thinking
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be the Promised Land in Texas and very
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: quickly winds about a little old place called the ALBUMO. Yeah,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: he he bumbles into the album. I mean, the guy
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: was not like seeking, uh, seeking battle or seeking. He
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: was seeking. He wanted, like good hunting, a bunch of
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: lands right right, And so you know, it was one
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: of those really bad um He's bad timing for Crockett.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: It maybe great timing for his um legacy, you know, immortality,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: but it was bad timing in terms of like being
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: able to get it, you know, forty acres. A connection
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: I saw between the establishment of the Republic of Texas
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: and the Alamo and everything what what brought. And I
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: read a lot of books about the Frontier, but a
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: connection I didn't realized until I read your book, Um
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: was the settlement practices that in going to Texas and
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: getting in trouble with the Mexicans and the Mexican army
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: really wasn't like that different than what his parents had
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: done and what he had always done, because the earlier
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: brought this idea that like, you're always trying to find
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: the free ground, right, and so you're always moving to
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: places where it's not like you're sorting the details out later, right,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: and somebody is always almost always already there, yeah, and
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: someone's always like, yeah, you really shouldn't go over there,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, you know, I figured out. Like
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: the brants are like, we don't watch you over there,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: and then tribes like you know that we conceded, like
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: we made a deal and this is our land and
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: you can't come here, and you're like, I'll go figure
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: it out. And then you like stake acclaim, but you
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: never really file it. And then later you know, some
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: guys like, but I stick, I did it too, and
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: you have a big fight and one of your moves
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: and it goes on and on and on, and so
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like it probably didn't feel that weird to
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: him to be going to Texas when he's sort of
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: like aware of the idea that there is a government
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: that's saying this is my ground right, and you're like,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: i'll sort it out later, right, and we'll figure it
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: out when we get there, and we may or may not.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: There may not even be boundaries, there may not be
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: ownership is sort of questionable, right, Let's just figure it out,
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: um though. You know, so when he ends up at
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: the Alamo, that's the point where you have to decide,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: like how you feel about Crockett, right, I mean we
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: started there, but that I think you know, you either
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: think here's a guy who bumbled into a skirmish that
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: he had no knowledge of. Really, you know, he just
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: he's been the wrong place at the wrong time, um,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: or you believe you can convince you went there to
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: die for an ideal. Many people have convinced themselves that
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: that's what happened, that he went there to die for
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: an ideal, for the you know, American dream. And it's
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: like it wasn't even really the American dream yet, no,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: we but we we like to call it the American dream, right,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: it was like opportunity. Yeah, but you read about a
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: lot of those guys were kind of in like America, sure,
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: but they wanted like Texas, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: they were also wanting to, um, you know, be sort
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: of separate from everybody else, right. They weren't like, by god,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: we're taking the American flag. It was a little bit
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: of that, but it was a lot of It was
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: just kind of like what they wanted, right, like land,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: land and land, and then uh, yeah, they all died.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: The animal Santa Ana comes in. He says, this is
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: an interesting too about the death is after it doesn't
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: take long. In general, Santa Anna, the leading the Mexican army, says,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: they try to be like, well, let's talk. He's like,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: at this point there is no talking. You will all die.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: And by the way, it's tomorrow morning and we're coming
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: and there's not like there is no chat, right, and
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: they put up a flag that says you all die.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: And then they all died. Well, right, And there's some
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: really haunting moments, you know, when you slow it down
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: and you still and you think about being inside the
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: Alamo and looking out, you know, through through the logs
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: and slats and you see, you know, maybe three thousand
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: Mexican troops. Well, armed on horseback and you're you know,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: a couple hundred guys in this um enclosure going and
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: you know you're basically it's over. I mean, there's no
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: like you said, there's no more discussion. They're coming and
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: it it happens so fast, you know, like it's it's
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: over in I mean maybe an hour, you know, and
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: then it's just like they're swarmed upon these images I
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: always had where like of them throwing those ladders up
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: and just coming wave after wave after wave, um, you know,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: with muskets and bayonets and just impaling them. You know,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: it's brutal. It's brutal. And then Sam Houston destroy Santa
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: Ana's army in nineteen minutes. Well was it was the
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: era of retaliation, right, So then okay, watch this transition.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: Fifty years goes by and we're trying to settle. Fifty
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: years goes by, and our our young country is like,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: hey man, we should see what's going on in the Arctic.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: Let's head north. Yeah, explain the quest for farthest north. Well,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: so it's really interesting people. I mean at the time, um,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: let's say, you know, eighteen fifties and you know Franklin
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: and nobody really say, some people who are a little
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: slow to the punch. All right, we've moved on to
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: Labyrinth of Ice, The Triumphant and Tragic Greely Polar Expedition,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: which is Buddy Leavy's brand new book. Thank you. Uh yeah,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: so what I found really pelling and I've I've been
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: drawn to Arctic stories, um for a while, I mean,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: you know, ever since probably I mean great North stories.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: I mean you probably grew up reading Jack London too,
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I like that. I've never been in I've
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: never been into the organized explorations. Yeah, like I'm not
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: even a big Lewis and Clark guy, like the Freewheeland individuals. Yeah. Well, um,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: in this case, what was so interesting is that no
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: one knew so that my book is set, this book
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: lebyrinthis is set in one and at that time, no
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: one had been to the North Pole. No one even knew.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: There was a belief that the North Pole was a
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: ring of ice circumnavigating the pole, and with once you
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: broke through this layer of ice, that the cs were
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: actually tropical. That's how confused people were. That's what they thought,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: what happened, that's what well, that's what they thought that
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: that's what they thought was up there. Um. I mean
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: now listen and uh. So the British had been going
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: up and Franklin, you know, trying to make the Northwest
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: passage much earlier. But essentially, you know, there was so
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: much unknown um that the you know, higher northern latitudes
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: were speculated about what actually existed up there. Now they
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: had been um, you know there was for some reason,
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: people always want to go farther higher, right, so this
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: farthest north Holy Grail became something that was a big
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: patriotic badge of honor. You know, you were the you'd
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: gone farther north than any other humans had ever been.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: But Greeley and his guys go up to him, right.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: So it's really a strange group of people in a
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: way because they Greeley had been running the signal, the
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: Army's signal Corps. Uh. And he so he was a
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: guy who had put up telegraph lines all across the
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: American southwest. But he had a fascination with um the Arctic,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: and he'd read all about um, you know, previous Arctic expeditions.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: He'd read about Franklin, He'd read about um Kine and
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: Beaumont and these people who these Brits who had been
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: up north and come back and Um survived and written
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: diaries in accounts and journals. He had all those, so
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: he ends up going up to the UM. He was
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: part of this thing called the International Polar Year, and
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: so there was this scientific element to it. So they
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: sent twenty five American soldiers from the basically from the
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Signal Corp. They were plucked out of the American Southwest.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: Many of them had spent hard winners in the Southwest,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: but they've never been to know. None of these men
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: had ever been to the Arctic. Yea, and these guys
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: have been like a little bit involved in the punitive
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: expeditions after the Custer massacre. Yeah. In fact, Brainerd one
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: of those guys had had been UM under UM Miles Nelson, Miles, Miles, Nelson,
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: Nelson Miles, And so they mean they were tough, hardened
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: men who were good at living in the outdoors, but
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: they had no idea what they were getting into. UM.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: A couple of things separate this expedition from others like it,
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: and one is that they so they were part of this.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: There was a three pronged reason that they went there.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: One was to um create the farthest north weather station
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: in the world, and there were it was in concert
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: with like fourteen other countries. This Austrian guy created this
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: thing called the first International Polar Year. So they're gonna
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: go up there and build a UM basically a weather station,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: a longhouse. They they brought all the wood for it.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: And then they were also going to try to find
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: um what had happened to this ship called the Jeannette,
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: which Hampton Sides writes about in UM in the Kingdom
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: of ice Um. So it had two years ago, two
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: years before the Jeannette had gone missing, never to be
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: heard of. Right, So Greely is going up north to
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: set up a weather station, try to see if there's
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: anything going on with this UM Jeanette and DeLong the
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: captain whom he knew, and then to try to break
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: the record to farthest north. That was like his secret goal.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: He didn't really talk about it much, but in his
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: diaries he does. Yeah, And they basically like going out
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: of New York and take a left right, I mean,
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: then you wind up up between Ellesmere Island and Green
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, the top of the top of Greenland.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: So it's incredible if you know, the journey up there
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: um is harrowing it. You know what ends up happening
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: is they set up a long house sixty five ft
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: long house. We don't explain something because this is like
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: part of like how everything goes bad. I think it's
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: important to point out. They get dropped off, right, and
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: it's an unseasonably warm summer, and they sail up and
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: drop him off way the hell up and they're like, hey,
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: we'll come back next summer. Right, Well, the plant is
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: so they get dropped off with all his freaking lumber
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: and thousands and thousands and thousands of hounds of food,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: and they're they're taken up in a in a steamship
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: called the Proteus, right, and so then they're dropped off
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: and the plan is, Okay, we'll come, we'll resupply you
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: next summer. Uh. And if we don't come back next summer,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: we'll we'll definitely come the next summer after that, we promised.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: But what's so weird is that, like you're right, So
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: it's like the warmest, the clear, the clearest, there's all
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: this channel that goes up through you know, it goes
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: through the Lincoln Uh pardon me. It goes through like
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: the Smith Sound, the Cane basin the Lincolns or the
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: lincolnsy is above Melville Melville Bay and you get up
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: and where it narrows in the Smith Sound and then
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: it opens up into the Kennedy Channel, and they're in
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: this little um spit, this little inlet called Lady Franklin Bay.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: And right, so the plan is that they're gonna build
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: this longhouse, do a bunch of science, take you know,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: hundreds of readings a day, umat seals and seals and
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: bears and uh and musk oxen and very good musk
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: oxen hunting up there by the way. Then um, they
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: do pretty well. Yeah, yeah. And then well, let's see
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: when the weather is good, because it's gonna be dark
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: for like a hundred and thirty consecutive days. When the
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: weather gets better, we'll go and try to break the
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: record of farther north, or even go to the North
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: Pole if we can pull that off. Um, and surely
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: they'll come and re supply us. And you know that's
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: when what I love about this story is that there's
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: this incredible dichotomy between the you know, the first to
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: like they spend Thanksgiving and Christmas right and it's you know,
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: they've got the Aurora Aurora borealis is going on. It's
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: just like fireworks every night right and there. They've got
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: tons and tons of food and Christmas parties, elaborate meals,
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: are doing shooting competitions out on the ice. They're smoking cigars,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: they're just living large. Man. They're eating a lobster. They
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: brought all the ship right and um, and you realize, like,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: so then everything looks good. You know, they're they're going
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: on expeditions normal the out farther farther north, the back
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: that sucker, they got fartherest west. And then he sends
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: a couple of guys and they go way west and
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: Ellesmere Island and to make some discoveries. They're waving the flag.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: They're like, you know what, we're crushing this. And then
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: the ice starts to form in the Kennedy Channel right
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: in there. And I love the fact that they spend
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: a great deal of time like looking out at the ice,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: because every day they send someone to climb the hill
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: to look for the boat. Climb up there and it's like,
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: is the boat coming you know, and then they so
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: the boat doesn't come the first summer, and then they're like,
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: well that's you know, we got a ship done. It
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: will make it even better when it comes next time.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: Really psyched and write letters home, honey. But you know,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: then it starts to get kind of grim. And Greeley,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: of course, what I love about him is he's not idle.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: So he's like, okay, well let's keep foraying and let's
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: try to even go farther north. And he sends, you know,
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: he's got these two green Landic um their drivers interesting man,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: green Landic eskimos, right, so they Eskimo Fred and u
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: Yen's Christiansen. They're really cool and they these guys, those
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: guys tear it up. Oh my god, they're badass. Yeah yeah,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: and so what you know, they when they had gone up,
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: they picked up. Um. Greeley knew that they needed um
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: dogs and green Landic drivers who could handle them. And
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: so he he negotiates to pay these guys and he
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: enlist them into the army and uh, and then so
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: they go on. They're they're waiting for those want to
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: be kind of like heroes. Oh my god, So I mean,
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: I you know, I get sad for Eskimo Fred when
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: I think about him, UM. I don't want to really
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: sort of spoiler, you know, well UM, so ask about
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: Fred and Yen's Christiansen are also are there. They're not
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: only good dog drivers, they're good shots and they're really
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: good in kayaks. Right, so you know the green Landic
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: people's the Inuit and the Etad. These guys are from,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: like they're called eta um like a blue wood these
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: in the days, like a blue eyed eskimo or something
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: like that in the old days. I'm not going to
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: say that, I'm saying in those days. I mean yeah,
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: because I mean, you know, when you think about UM
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: interaction with UM, you know Europeans um, you know. But no,
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard the expression actually because I thought Stephenson,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: you know, the Arctic, but I thought he was always
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: trying to and I think that we'll say that for
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: ext bring them next, UM. But so you know, they've
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: got they've got these green land um sled dog drivers
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: and you know, really keeps sending out forays. That's part
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: of the story that I really loved is how you
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: know they go on these expeditions and they're they're burly man.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: They're like going out for sixty days in you know,
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: minus average minus fifty degree temperatures UM carrying, and they
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: have got these elaborate sort of UM stoves burn um,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: you know, these fuels that they're able to, like in
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: severe winds, they're able to like strike a fire in
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: these like funnel stoves and then you know, heat up
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: like frozen stew meat that they've got brought along and
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: fuels and souls and ship and so then they will
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: be like go out, you know and come back maybe
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: two months later. Right, So me two guys, Brainerd and Lockwood.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: These are two of the main expedition are guys. And
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: then and then Eskim my friend and YenS. YenS are
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: Gen's you tell me ends Christian funels. But so you know,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: this is why it's called the triumph, the triumphant and
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: tragic because the first part of this UM there's a
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: ton of triumph to me, you know, UM in what
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: humans are able to achieve in terms of um teamwork
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: and being out you know for days and days on end.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: The things that you guys do, you know, like but
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: it's not even comparable. Man that he had gone for
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: years pregor Tex you know, um, and they're you know
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: and greely like they're actually testing out all sorts of
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: because really preferred wool and oil skin to seal skin
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: because he got really he tried to wear what Native
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: peoples were wearing, but he found it really um clammy.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: I mean they didn't he didn't breathe, so he was
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: using he would use thick like boiled wool and then
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: oil skin kind of like drover coats that on the outside. Right. Um,
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: because sleeping bags real quick, oh my sah. They had
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: buffalo hide sleeping bags and dog hair sleep They would
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: make sleeping bags out of dogs. And it was what's
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: funny is because I know a little bit of that
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: world well, and they were gone, so they went up
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: in eighty one. Yeah, it was interesting because the last
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: sort of like the last big organized slaughter of Buffalo, yeah,
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: was in Miles City named after General Miles. Was in
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: Miles City in the winter. Was the last big commercial slaughter.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: And it was funny that these guys are gone and
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: they got all this, They got all these coats and
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: sleeping bags and stuff made out of these hides, and
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: they're gone and probably unbeknown to them. The animals are
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: like they're sleeping and sleeping bags made from an animal
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: that is simultaneously tiptoeing precariously close to extinction. Unbelievable. And
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: the president dies, right, Oh my god, So that's what. Yeah,
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: there's a lot going on. I love that, that idea
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: that they have no idea that you know, while we're
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: out here. Um, the communication was so you know, there's nothing.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: They build cairns and and uh leave notes and huge
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: rock carrens. But yeah, so the sleeping bags were awesome
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: because these guys they wo have three man sleeping bags.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: So they it was so cold that if you weren't
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: like nut to butt with your bro, you're probably going
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: to freeze to death. So they have three man buffalo
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: hide sleeping bags and they all climb in and just snuggle,
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: you know at night for months on end, you know, um,
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: and then get out of them and you know, like
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: go on track for twenty miles over the ice broken ground.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: I mean you know it's not flat there either. I
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: mean it's very there's mountains around there that are up
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: to four thousand, five thousand ft four thousand feet. So
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: these guys are just like, you know, moving along It's
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: incredible the kind of um deprivation they could endure. How
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: are they carrying that gear? Sucking heavy? And so they
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: have they have like these really cool sledges. We haven't
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: established why they need to split. Oh, so talk about
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: why they need to split, and then how they move
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: so far they haven't moved. Oh oh yeah, but I'm
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: talking so well Greeley. But before the okay, so let's
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: just back it up for a second. So first winter, Uh,
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: they have a great time party, Uh, go farthest north
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: everything school. Uh. Then the summer, your rescue or resupply
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: doesn't happen. Greeley still keeps sending out, um, you know,
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: forays to try to go. They'll discover new lands in Greenland,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: which he does. And they're going off at this point
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: on these sledges with like two men driving the sledge
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: or one man driving the sledge, and then they're carrying
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of their gear on these sledges and
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: the dogs are hauling it. But there's a lot of
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: time in the drag ropes too, because they get stuck
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: and the ice is breakable, and a lot of piggybacking. Yeah,
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: I mean they do a lot like humping. We're going
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: on a long trip. Drag a bunch of ship unloaded,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: dragged the sledge back, put a bunch more ship on it,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: drag it up to their unloaded go back sleep, moving
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: another mile, Go back at the ship and move it
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: brural doubling back man. And so after the uh second so,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: Greeley had made a determination that if by the second
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: summer the resupply did not come, there was a contingency
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: plan in place that was written in army military orders
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: that they would retreat to this place a couple hundred
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: miles south called Cape Sabine on the Ellesmere Island side,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: and the ships that were to have resupplied them if
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: they couldn't make it there were bound by written order
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: to drop off supplies there so that if Greeley and
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: his men could arrive there and survive. So there's a
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: lot of controversy over Greeley's decision to leave the Fort
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: Conger Longhouse, because they had they had another year's supply
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: of food, and they had shelter, and there was game.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: But Greeley was a deeply devoted military man, and an
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: order was an order, and you know he was going
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: to leave, and he sets that date. I think it's
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: August eight U and it says we're going right. So
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: they they hammer Fort Conger's shut, dump a bunch of
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: the um, you know, food and um for the dogs,
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: leave all the ship for the dogs. Oh that's kind
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: of sad too, Like they leave all these damn dogs
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: and they take off in boats. Donald lead and one
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: of the dogs swims out after him, and they keep
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: thinking he'll turn around, he'll turn around, and there's a hair,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: there's a haunting line, we say, like eventually his head
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: goes underwater like a seal. Right, and Schneider, one of
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: the guys who's been taking care of the dogs, just
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: uh like is staring at this dog and then he
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: just turns away and he's gone. Um. But so that
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: the decide, the decision to retreat is I want I
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: had to start thing in there. Yeah, that you spent
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of detailed a lot of time on is
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: the blunders and mishaps that plague the resupply ships. Like
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: one of the resupply ships just simply gets stuck in
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: the ice and the boat gets crushed and then there
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: sinks and there's all this off and then those guys
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: have this like harrowing like riding on ice floes and
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: this harrowing journey, and somehow they don't all wind up
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: dead right the rescue. So, yeah, the Neptune, like the
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: first ship, they're supposed to come get them. What's kind
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: of fun in the in the writing of the story
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: is that so I was able to cut back and
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: forth between what's happening with Greeley and as they begin
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: to retreat, and just even before, while they're out watching
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: to see if the ship's gonna come, I'm I cut
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: to what the ships are actually doing, which is getting
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: stuck in the ice on the way up. And so
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: they are all sorts of blenders where people don't do
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: what they were supposed to that they don't leave, they
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: don't leave the food, and then you know, the ship
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: gets crushed, and so like you said, then these guys
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: are all like clambering around the ice and they have
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: to get like, you know, rescued by there's a lot
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: of whaling ships in the area at that time, and
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: so you know, they get rescued and one of them
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: just turns around and bags it and goes back because
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: it can't make it through the ice, and then the
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: Proteus ends up with That's that's like a huge debacle
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: where um, you've got two emergencies going on simultaneously. You know,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: Greeley and his men are fighting for their lives trying
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: to get to Cape Sabine, and the men on the
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: Proteus are the proteus gets crushed in the ice and
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: sinks right before their eyes. Is they're standing there on
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: ice watching it go, watching its masts just plummet into
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: all the food, with all the freaking food. It's so brutal.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: And then you you know, you you're like, okay, well,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: so what's gonna happen to them? And then then these
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: guys on the Proteus are in a um race for
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: survival themselves. You know, they're in little whale boats that
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: are you know, ore boats, and they're trying to trying
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: to figure out how to get out of there, while
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: Greeley's moving down through these heinous like you you mentioned
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: leads there the the like the pathways of water through
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: giant icebergs and huge ice flows, and he's on you know,
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: they've got uh twenty eight ft steamship steam launch. It's
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: called um dubbed the lady Greeley and you know, it's
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: like a ten pound vessel. And then they've got like
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: a small flotilla of ore boats. Um, and so all
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: their crap is in these boats and they're they're like
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: tethered together at first, and they're trying to make it
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: south through gy Have you ever been into the up
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: in the Arctic? No, not like what you're talking about.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: I mean I was in Greenland and and did some
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: kayaking around and it's I mean, it's terrifying. Right. Um,
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: We're we're in Greenland and this Uh. I got in
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: this boat and the guy is gonna go shoot some seals,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: and I said, um, I noticed there's no life jackets
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: on the boat. And I'm like, we're about to go
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: through these massive icebergs and it's you know, they're they're
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: hauntingly beautiful and they look like like dinosaur like Stegasaurus backs,
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: you know. And I'm like, hey, why aren't there in
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: this green Land at seal hunter? Guy? I'm like, why
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: aren't there any life I gets on the boat and
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: he goes, if we fall in, we don't want it
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: to take that long to die. I'm like, I get it, man,
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: I mean because you're not. Unless you had a dry suit,
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: you're it's gonna be maybe you're gone. Right. So anyways,
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: had a guy in the I had a guy in
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: the coast Guard in southeast Alaska talk about just how
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: sick you got of the accidents. Oh my god, He's like,
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: you know what. Then I had a couple they're both sinks.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: They make it to shore, we find them dead on
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: the beach spring frozen to death. Yeah, I mean, and
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: so what's once they set Once they Greely and his
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: men set out in these craft to move south, things
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: get really really gnarly because first of all, they're not
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: nautical men, their army men. They weren't meant to do this.
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: They weren't supposed to. It wasn't really in the plan.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: I mean they I guess they thought they could go
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: overland potentially, but that's not viable. So they're moving through
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: these leads and they're constantly having to take all their crap,
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: like as as icebergs and these things called flows. There's
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: all you know. They're flatter like big, big like rafts
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: of ice. Some of them are miles long. They spend
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: one day looking at at a iceberg go by or
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: a flow and it's like fifteen miles long. It takes
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: nine hours to pass them. Crypto Paleolithic, I mean, there's
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: all sorts of you get into the all sorts of
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: names for the icebergs. I have a footnote on there.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: It was icebergs there six high, yeah, and then it's
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: much more of it below and then old ice yeah.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: And then like ice ale, the boat will get pinched
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: between two pieces of ice and it pops that boat
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: like a pimple, just shoots it up out and then
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: the boash is on the ice and everybody camps on
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: the ice for days and a new crack forms. They
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: shoved their boat back into the crack. It's so brutal.
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: And so they're constantly like going on and off of
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: these icebergs and trying to avoid being crushed to death
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: by them. And you know, at one point, one of
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: the most harrowing, harrowing parts of the story is when
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: they they get at a certain point they are on
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: an iceberg and it gets um cleaved in half by
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: another iceberg that's coming from the north and it hammers them.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: And then they're they're on this berg for like weeks
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: weeks and they're just floating along, just helplessly in the
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: middle of this body of water, being buffeted and hammered.
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: And they're like in their exposed I mean they can
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: sleep sometimes some of them. They have a big tepee um.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: And then they also have tarps that go over the
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: boats that they're yarding up onto the iceberg every day.
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: But the the exhaustion when you think about of like
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: of taking all this equipment and getting it up onto
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: a an iceberg, maybe tethering the lady Greeley to the
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: side with these ice anchors, and then hours later you're
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: getting hammered and you have to You're gonna get crushed,
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: so you have to put all that crapt back in
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: the water. I Meanwhile, you're looking at your food stores.
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: And Greeley was you know, he had men that were
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: their job was to exactly how many actually weighing it
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: out with a scale, right, and you're going and he's going,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: we have, you know, forty days rations left, and by
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: about October, it's going to be dark for the next
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: four months. And they had all these like they had
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: all these assumptions about all these points and markers were like,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: oh my god, oh they'll have left ten thousand rations
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: and then it gets there and there's like forty rations.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: Well they must all be the next spot. And they
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: get down the next spot that there's some lemon. There's
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: a lemon. Yeah, there's I mean, there's so many heartbreaking
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: moments where you think, Okay, they're gonna they're gonna pull
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: this off, right, you know, they by some miracle, they
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: like end up landing not that far from Cape Sabine ultimately,
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: or they're able to get there, you know. And then
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: just like you say that, then they go to a
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: cairn and it says, oh, by the way, all those
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: rations that we were supposed to leave, well our ship
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: sunk and we didn't leave them. And so they're like
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: what you're like? And then you know, Greeley is always
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: very just like what's the next thing that you have
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: to do to keep this all together? You know? And
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: so there's also what I love about the story is
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: that they're like there's mutiny that goes on. You know,
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: there's theft of food, like once they're all once they
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: make it the capes of me and they've got like
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: a certain amount of food and they're trying to parse
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: this out like, okay, if we can survive the winner,
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: it's gonna last us maybe till March, you know. And
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: then they've got there like dispatch two guys to be
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: out hunting seals every day. You've got ends and ask
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: them about Fred out in the kayak trying to shoot
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: some seals. Bears are, you know? And then there's all
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: sorts of shore birds and at a certain point, I
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: mean they keep stick and walrus is what they lose them.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so brutal because a walrus could
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: would would be their salvation, you know. But they shoot
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: the walrus and then it like slithers off of the
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: iceberg and they will be like this blood slick and
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: then just trying to you know. You know what I'm
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: thinking that you didn't spend a lot of time on
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: that really struck me is at one of the points
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: on the way down, they land at a place they
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: dubbed Eskimo Point because it's full of artifacts and a
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: whale carcass and pieces of like equipment made from ivory
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: and structures. And then you think like here's these like
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: military trained individuals with firearms and modern equipment, and they're
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: like quote stuck and dying and starving to death in
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: a place where for three or four thousand years you
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: have these marine based mammal hunters who were thriving and
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: raising babies, right and and well and so you thinking
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: any of the things without the weather equipment and the
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: guns and the man made materials and yeah, and they
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: were just like how like the dichotomy of of the
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: skill sets, right, yes, you can see that these are
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: like raising children there and right across the way like
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: still you know, the entire villages. Um, yeah, I mean
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: I think Greeley, these guys were certainly not as well
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: suited to the environment as the people had had been
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: their way expectations. Yeah, and you know, bringing your food
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: with you versus having to to um gather or procure
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: it yourself, you know. And I think given that the circumstances,
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: Greeley and his men were managed very well. Uh. They
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: were quite industrious. You know. They built these some of
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: them scrimping nets, right, you know, and they were shooting
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: lots of birds and so you know, but at a
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: certain point, a lot of Arctic fox. They had a
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: lot of Arctic fox, and they ate and I don't
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: want to tell the story about the bear because that's
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: a great story. I want you to read the story
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: about the bear um. But the uh, you know, at
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: a certain point, their culinary situation is down to a
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: gelatinous gruel of shrimp and like the snipped off top
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: of a buffalo hide leaping bag and the soles of
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: your boots, you know, I mean they're seriously eating. There's
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: some images in there that are just they haunt me,
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: you know, like crawling around your hands and knees, plucking
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: caterpillars off the ground and just plucking in your mouth.
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: And also you know, eating just eating lichens and sacks
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: of frage and all the plants. They're just like putting
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: it in their mouths. It's so it's sort of ghoulish.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: Do you feel that it gives too much a way
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 1: to talk about I don't want to call it rescues,
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: a little dramatic to talk about. Not for the film version, no,
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: not for the hand like for the well it says
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: this in the back of the book. I know I
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: was seven people live. Yeah yeah, so well yeah, and
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 1: what I want to talk about, are you protable talking
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: about the whether or not? Oh me, there's a great
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: there's a great line. There's a great line from In
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: the Heart of the Sea. I love that book. Nathaniel
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: Philbrook is at his name. Where later when people realize
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: that after the whaleship Essex trategy, there had tragedy, there
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: had been some cannibalism, and someone's asked like, hey, did
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: you know Fred Jones he was on Essex And he says, no, him,
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: I had him. Yeah, so, uh, Greeley didn't want to
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: own up to the cannibalism. Yeah. I mean so in
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: the end, you don't like talking about this. Oh, I know,
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: I really want to talk about this. I mean it
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: shows meat eater right, um, meat to meat. Yeah. And
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: I've eaten folk, yeah, because I had a Yeah I
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: have right now, I have a cadaver. I have a
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: cadaver's bone crammed up in my tooth. And yeah, a
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: lot of that comes loose. I've eaten folks, and I've
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: taken to nibble n in little bits. How is it.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: I don't mind it. That doesn't count. Yeah, he's not
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: the same as like your friend is frozen over there. No,
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: but Yanni's eating Uh, he's drank human breast milk and
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: he's eating human meat because he's eating placenta. Oh oh
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: you did it? You did that? Yeah kind of. I
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: want to say it counts either, Really, what does it take.
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: It's like throwing on the barbecue and if you eat
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: it raw to make it count it raw? Well, yeah,
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: no you can. We we had the placentis shipped off
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: and it was dehydrated and came back and pills. Wow,
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: how do you feel good? Strong? Like bull just like
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: just like I take my vitamins every day. I like
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: to think him as a canibal. Anyways, so you know,
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: there's okay, there's no question, like get into the whole
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: like like they they they exhumed bodies later and butchered. Right,
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: So here's the thing you got. Why don't you You're
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: not being just lay it out all right, listen, cheer
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: me out. People are going to not buy your book
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: because they heard about the end. No, no, the journey. Listen.
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: Everybody knows that that there's cannibalistic party. Let's check this out. Hey,
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: Phil are you were you like, oh, dude, I'm gonna
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: buy this book. But then you're like, oh, they eat
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: everybody in the end. Never mind, I'm not buying it. No, Honestly,
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: as I've been listening to this conversation, I've been thinking
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: about going to Karen, our producer, and saying, if she
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: has a copy that I can read, he's not gonna
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: he's gonna buy it, but he's gonna look, he's gonna
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 1: go look for a free copy. I'll spread the word.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so La device buddy Levy, Phil is gonna
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: go see if he can't get himself a free one.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: It's it's so it's a funny thing connected to that
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: in the in the research. So, um, I have a
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: first reader. He's the guy I dedicated the book to
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: my friend John Larkin, And uh, you know, so I
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: got the sources in the original version. Now, so I
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: know how all my sourcing is going. In one of
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: the major books about it. It's It's title is six
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: came Back. And John's reading along and like chapter three
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: and he's like, huh, I wonder how this is gonna
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: work out? You know it's came Back. It's like, yeah,
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: that's a great point, man. Yeah, so no, I'm not worry.
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: What's interesting about it was called and then they shoot
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: this dog, poor old Yether would be different. Um, you
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: know what I want to do? Uh we always asked
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: this that I can remember. What's it called when you
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: put a quote in the beginning of a book. Oh,
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: the epigraphy, Graham, that's a gramatic. I'm trying to find
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: this one here. It is. It's tight. It's tight by
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: many paths and by many means. Mankind has endeavored to
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: penetrate this kingdom of death. Free that guy, by the way,
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: nonsen Uh, he broke Greeley's farthest north record thirteen years later.
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: So they held it for only short time. Let's get
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: back to the cannibal eating folks and get and then
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: how they eventually some of them lived. Well, you don't,
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Yeah, I mean, so these guys are
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: in a dire situation and they begin, um, they begin
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: to die of starvation, right, And so what ends up happening? Um.
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: One of the most maccabb elements of it is so
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: they're somebody died, the first guy dies, uh, and they
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: have to get together and muster the strength to um
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: like carry them up on this place they dubbed cemetery Hill.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: Cemetery Hill, we'll call it. Um, you've got another option,
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: and you know, so they put they start burying these guys.
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: And at first they have the strength to dig you know,
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: a sort of fifteen inch deep. Great, yeah, but even
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: still they're kind of covering them with snow and right,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: I mean it's like a screet it's like hard ass
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: froze and screen slope. Right. And so they begin to um,
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: they begin to starve, and you know, there's all sorts
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: of um attempts to go get these herculean attempts to
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: go get more of the English cash of food that's
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: like somewhere out there that's been left by another expedition
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: years before. But anyway, so as they begin to die,
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: they they're like it gets harder and harder to bury them.
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: And at a certain point people are you know, sort
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: of just being left up on cemetery hill but like
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: or frozen. They throw some of them down in this
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: thing they call the title crack. So they're near the
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: shore and you know what, you don't you don't hear
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: about the the cannibalism until the rescue. Um. So there's
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: this rather amazing um effort by the navy to go
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: get them, and it's all spearheaded by Greeley's wife, Henrietta.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: And so they finally arrived there and these guys are
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: into it. Well, this is the third year, so they've
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: been on they've been at capes of beIN for like
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: eight but there's no but you know what they find, Well,
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: here's they find, like the boat that goes up, one
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: of the boats that goes up that's supposed to do
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: the rescue. Everything goes bad, but they wind up and
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: here and there they leave some stuff. And these guys
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: find some lemons that are left in a cash and
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: that turns out the lemons are wrapped in newspaper, and
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: they start taking these scraps and newspaper and reading them,
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: and they're reading about themselves, right, and they're reading about
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: that the president was shot and died that like, and
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: they're starting to get like little torn torn bits of
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: what's going on. One of them learns that in his absence,
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: he's been promoted Lieutenant Lockwood. And so that they come
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: back from these cash is right, and they I love
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: that scene where they're like they'll hold them up by
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: candle light. And and so the lemons, which you know,
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: they've been sent along to help work scurvy. So the
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: lemons are wrapped in all this paper and so they're
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: they're reading them. And once once Lockwood uh learns that
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: he's been promoted. I love that because he then he
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: any uh you know, one of his first missions is
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: to go and by this time, these guys are freaking
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: scrawny and dying, you know, and so he he wants
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: to go put the pendulum up, build this cairn. There's
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: a spot on the coastline that Greeley says, even if
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: we perish, I don't want our records to perish. Yeah,
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: And so the Lockwood his first act, as uh, you know,
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: of the first lieutenant, is to go place this cairn
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: and this pendulum that they've brought along up on this
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: promontory so that if the boats get there, they'll see
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: it because they're kind of tucked away in this little cove.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: And he has a lot of their records and there,
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: and they're not the negatives what do you call them? Yeah,
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: he has to plate the photographic plates. Yeah, he sticks
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: in because like, if we all die, there's a better
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: chance they'll find it down there right and in in
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: the cairn, and that pendulum end up figuring in in
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: uh in the rescue. But so here's the deal. These
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: guys are you know, they're doing everything they can. They're
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: eating pounds and pounds of shrimp and and grubs and
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: all this crap. Right, So you got guys that are
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 1: frozen next to you. Hey man, I'm not down. I
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: would have done the same thing. That's that's my question. So, like,
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, would you eat do you think you'd eat?
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 1: Would you eat another person? Before I died? Yeah, I
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: was like Phil died and I'm like, well, I would
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: die too, And let's say Phil, Hell, yeah, Phil, I
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: would I would have I would have my dying words
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 1: to be Phil, eat my flesh. Don't feel bad? Right?
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: And so what's kind of mine too? Sort of there's
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: some you know, so there's this French guy, Octave Pavy,
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: right that one of the things that's sort of freaky
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: about when they when they find So you got these
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: guys that are flying on the ground and you know,
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 1: sometimes pretty close to the hut they're in because they're
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: they're too exhausted to carry them very far by this time,
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 1: and you know, they're preserved and they're they're kind of fro.
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're like they're in the freezer. You know,
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: they're in cold storage. Right, So when they when the
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: rescue comes. They they're very deliberate about taking each body
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: and labeling it and drawing diagrams about who was where.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: And then once they get them on the ships because
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 1: there's a military operation, they begin to um undress them
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: and they're gonna kind of put them in preserving baths,
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: right fluid yeah, So like um, yeah, they have these
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: holds on the ship where they can you know, put
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: these bodies and preserve them. And that's when they discover
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: that a number of the bodies have missing a little
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: meat like and some of it is so surgically sliced
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: that looks like it was done by a surgeon, and
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: so that suggests that that paybe um likely uh was
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: one of the perpetrators because the cuts are precise, uh.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: And he's the only surgeon on the expedition, right, And
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: so then there's others that are you know, slightly dismembered,
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: and um, you know, Chunk's gone, right, So what ends
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: up happening is that they have to you know, Greeley
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: and the others make a pact that they will you know,
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: Greeley and some of his men the remaining six one
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: guy Ellison, dies on the um he's the guy with
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 1: the stumps and the he's he's lost both of his
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 1: legs and most of his hands from frostbite. And so
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: he lives and makes it onto the rescue ships, but
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 1: he dies. Um and Root. So of the six they
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: make a pack that they'll they'll never tell who eight
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 1: whom right, And you know it's one of those codes
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: of honor. They're just like Greeley says, if if cannibalism occurred,
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: I know nothing of it, right, Yeah, that's a cop out. Um,
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: you know, I think he's protecting the memory of his man.
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: He's protecting the families. I would do that, Like if
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 1: we ate philed, would you picture on it that we
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: would be like, let's not tell anyone we ate Phil.
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: Or would you go back and be like, we ate Phil? Yeah?
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't tell anybody who ate. It's like because
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: because when you weren't around, when you weren't around, I'd
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I ate him. Those kids don't want
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: to know that he got eaten. Who's the guy Albert
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: Packer right, Um, the guy who ate Oh yeah, blunding
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 1: him at him. I've been to Um, I've been to
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: one of the caves that packers supposedly hit out in
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah it was it was it cool in Wyoming? Yeah, yeah,
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: slept in there. I'm not joking. We did it freaking
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 1: out a little bit, a little bit, you know. So
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: I think the question is like, why are we still
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: um what is it about cannibalism that still carries this
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: um taboo stigma? Are you asking me? I'm I'm posing
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: it as a as a question. I'm asking myself because
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: I asked myself a number of times, like what would
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: I do in the situation that these guys whatever is old, uh,
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: that thing that makes us not want to eat each other? Yeah,
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: I think that like the like the incests taboo, the
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: cannibalism taboo. I mean, these are like things that had
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: to have occurred and been pretty forceful at a very
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: early time and human development. Right if you do just
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: generally see like why, I like how these things would
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: come about. Yeah, I mean we tend to do better
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: not eating each other. It creates a kind of anarchy,
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: right yeah. Um so but you know we're we're ractional
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: enough now to know that, like, okay, if if we're
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: out there together, if if one of us dies, all right,
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: you know, it's cool, Like, go ahead, I'm already dead,
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm I don't need it. But you know
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: this is we have to do place place, um, a
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: little bit of ourselves in the time where a period
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: where where which was not okay? Um, so I picture
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: like this. Say you're in a horrible situation today and
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: you want to having to eat somebody, You eat your body,
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: You get rescued, you come home and you're laying in
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: bed with your wife at night, right, and then your
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: wife is like, oh, I love him, so glad he's home.
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: But like in the back of her head is like,
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: he ate his body. Yeah, it's gonna color. It's gonna
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: color Like they might accept it and get it and
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 1: all that, it's gonna color the way they view you forever. Right. Yeah,
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: I mean you're you're done, you're done for It's just
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: people are gonna treat you different, right. And so that's
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I was, I like, I
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: hedged a little bit, you know, part of me when
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: they're like, well let's put we're let's put cannibalism on
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: the cover, and I'm like, you know what, Okay, that's
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: a great idea for marketing. Um, you know, but you
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: know it's true. I mean, everybody triumphant and tragic and cannibalistic,
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: greely polar expedition, laborate device. Yeah that sounds good. But
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, we all remember the dinner party. Um,
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: that's what That's the one thing you can tell you
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: about the dinner party. That's those guys they're somewhere, they
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: at each other, right, and all the other stuff. That's
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of heroic about what they were, how
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: they were able to spride, but in the colors an expedition.
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: But I try not to, Um, you know, I try
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: to handle the cannibalism in a way that doesn't make
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: it Um, I don't know, scious, I guess, Yeah, you
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: treat respectfully. Yeah, it's important to treat cannibalism with some respect.
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 1: And I'm only bringing it up because it comes up
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: now and then. Um, it's the thing that we muse
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 1: on and are curious about. So I'm not trying to
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 1: over I'm not trying to overdo it. No, I get it.
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: I'm going for the salacious details where the you know,
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I asked you about sex on the frontier
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: and I asked about canibalism. Both happen frequently. Uh it
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: turns out I don't want to talk about it. Uh man,
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: how are we doing? We got it? We've been going
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: for three minutes? How long we been going for films? Yeah? Perfect?
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: I have a question though before we go. No, you
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: get a closing thought in a minute. But I want
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: the books, okay, okay, So if you are interested in
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: learning about uh, like, the best way to take on
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 1: American history, in my mind is not to go to
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 1: history class. I'm not saying you should skip history class,
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: but you go to history class, you're like, Okay, boys
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 1: and girls, this happening, that happening, this is happening, that happened,
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: and here we are today. Um. A better approach is
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: to take the chunks, to take the chunks and take
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 1: a look at the chunks. Yeah and um, and you
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: have a host of books, but I picked the I
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: gravitated towards these, appreciate it, and they're really telling chunks
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 1: about where we're at, like where we were at as
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: a people, Um, in a very interesting century, amazing place,
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: amazing time like that that that Crockett right, and what
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: it tells you about American politics and what it tells
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: you about American Violence, and then um, and then I
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: keep calling the Crockett. The book is American Legend. The
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: title is American Legend the Real Life Adventures of Davy Crockett,
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: and then Labyrinth Device, the subtitle being The Triumphant and
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: Tragic Greeley Polar Expedition just kind of like it's sort
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: of it's like these like harrowing, adventurous snapshots of sort
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 1: of like where we were as a people, what our
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: priorities were, and some of the people that we put forth. Yeah,
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 1: I love that. And you know, behind both of them,
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: I think is this idea of adventure and of of
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 1: the unknown, right, because in the case of of Crockett,
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: you know, um, you know, it wasn't really known completely
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: what lay beyond the frontier. And in the case of
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 1: you know, Greeley and his men, they're going to places
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: no other human had ever been. In fact, when they
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: build for Conger, they're the highest living humans on Earth. Yeah,
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: Like they were going farther north than than the indigenous
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: indigenous hunters went well, right, because they're like, Okay, there's
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: no game out there, you know, and why would I
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: go there? You know, you might reconsider, right, but so yeah,
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: I really like that the notion of of how history
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 1: can you know, there's a narrative there, so there's always
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: just incredible stories. And it also is a sort of
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 1: a snapshot into what people were thinking, the way they behaved, Um,
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: they were willing to do, how much they could take
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 1: brutally tough, toughest people. I mean, um yeah, just the
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 1: idea that you can um survive some of these things,
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 1: to me makes makes going out you know, hunting, and
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 1: I'm always thinking about it when I'm out, like, wow,
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 1: this is hard, but it's not that hard, you know. Um.
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: So I really appreciate talking to you about both these books,
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 1: and I'm excited to um, you know too to me
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: really December three, Labyrinth Device comes out. Yeah, you probably
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 1: go in order right now, right now, hold your order
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: and stend of the book. Oh yeah yeah yeah, it's
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 1: it's um available available now. Um I did. This is
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: so funny. My son Okay, he's twenty five years old
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: and he and his friends they are they are you know,
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 1: they're grown men, and they've been arguing apparently Hunter, my
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 1: son and Kyle and this kid have it up. You
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: named your kid Hunter, named him Hunter's Moon. Uh, no,
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 1: that name backfires on people. There's a per core hunter's
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: name Hunter right, but he not a guarantee. You may
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: still be Time's not a guarantee. But it's funny because
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 1: they've been arguing this is and these are relatively intelligent men,
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: and they've been arguing about this question of relatively highly
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 1: intelligent child. But this, this just makes me wonders because
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 1: I have my own position on it. So that the
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: argument is whether a man and I don't know who?
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: That is the question you want to ask a question.
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you if there's a if there's
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: a grown kind of grown man, and whoever that man
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 1: is kill a wolf with his bare hands. And my
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: brother Matt would tell you yes, and he'll tell you
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: how to do it. So I was my question is
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: what man would this be? And how would he do it?
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: My brother has two ways that he speculates he would
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: do it. One uh, sometimes he talks about that he
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: would crush its throat and there's all their favorite way
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: that he talks about is you get a good grip
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: on its lower jaw. Oh yeah, you get a good
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: grip on its upper jaw, and you just hold it
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 1: and tired it out the old mandibular because I can't
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: close its mouth, and he's like he would hold it
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: and hold it and hold it and hold it and
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: hold it until it so tuckered out and then he
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 1: crushes its throat. Now I have to say there's some
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: validity to that because I have I mean, I'm a
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 1: dog man, right, and I have grabbed I learned a
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: while ago. They if you grab a dog's lower jaw
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: and just hold it with your you know, as hard
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 1: as you can, they they can't bite from above now.
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 1: So but the question is, how do you get ahold
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 1: of the of the wolf's lower mandible, you can break
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 1: up a dog. I think I guess dogs hate is
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: when you put your finger in their butt. People say,
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: you've got two dogs they're locked, the two dogs that
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 1: are fighting, and they're locked in a death grip. If
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: you put your finger in their butt, they quit fighting you. Yeah. Yeah,
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: you have not field tested this though, right, No, But
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 1: I it's true of a lot of things. Yeah, So
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: you're gonna just say that your brother has a position,
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: do you have? But do you think this is moral?
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 1: When he gets to drinking and talking, When we get
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 1: to talking about what would you do. He's like, oh,
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: I'll tell what I would do. But yeah, I mean
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: I think it's absurd. Like, but your kid wants to know, well,
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: he wants to know what you think about whether a
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 1: guy could kill a wolf with bare hands? Yeah? Sure, okay,
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: what like you're how much you hundre pounds? So let's
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 1: say I mean a huge wolf. Like everybody likes to
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 1: talk about the ones that are over a hunter pounds,
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 1: there's a lot that aren't. So there's a wolf, this
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: wolf seventy five pounds and yawning him getting a skirmish. Yeah,
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 1: is it possible? I saw a video recently where a
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 1: kangaroo has a dog and a headlock, right, so yeah,
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: ponder that. Yeah, and this dog's helpless just totally messes
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 1: them up. So could Yannie, Big Strap and Latvian throw
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 1: down with the wolf? And when if he came back
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: and told me he killed a wolf, I would be like,
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: that's cool, you did it with one on one. Yeah, mano, mano,
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 1: mano e par peril. If I had to deal with
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: the pack, would be mano I lobo right, pack, That's
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: where Yanni jaws limits. All right, I just went mess
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: with you. He yi thinks that he might run into
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: trouble with a large pack. Right, what what else you got, Yanni? Um?
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 1: I want to go back to Crockett real quick and
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: just figure out tell me. Can you tell me in
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: a concise way exactly how I know you guys talked
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: about him being famous for being famous, But how did
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: the initial famous come about? Right? Because he would be like, um,
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 1: part alligator and my mama was a bear, my daddy was.
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 1: So it's just him just talking. Yeah, So he was
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: making up stories about himself and then that, you know,
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: get written up in papers. And then there's this um
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: playwright who ended up going, man, this this guy is fantastic,
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: Like he's this guy's awesome. So let's just make a character,
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 1: uh about his na like Nimrod Wildfire. Yeah, you know,
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 1: it will make a character that everyone actually knows haunts bears,
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: lives out in Tennessee. And then that play like tours
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 1: around the cities. You know, it's like in Washington, India's
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 1: like Broadway. Uh, and you've got this character, this flamboyant
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 1: frontiersman character who's like talking like the country bumpkin. And
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: then um, everyone knows it's based on my weight and
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 1: wild cats and jump Mississippi and one big jump and
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 1: people meet Crocket and be like, oh, you're the guy
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: that You're the guy who can leave the Mississippi's Like, well,
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know kind of if I have a boat. Yeah,
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, so he had. He was very shrewd
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 1: about benefiting from like once the once people all, oh wow,
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: this guy is amazing, like he's all these things. He
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 1: never um like discouraged them from believing it just snowball
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 1: at that point. But I was sort of wondering that
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 1: the beginning, like imagine, okay, you know how in the beginning, yeah,
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was just slow. It was kind of
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: a slow build, right. So he when he started running
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: for Congress, then he like really latched onto that persona
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 1: of the of the excellent marksman and the hunter and
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 1: the you know, this guy who could win a cow
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: in a shooting competition. Right. So he he just he
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: just rolled with it, and he was more interesting than
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of his counterparts, right because he actually did
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 1: some legit stuff. Yeah, I mean, he was like out
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: there living it. Um. So let's say, you know, you
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 1: thwarted a bear attack by hitting a bar in the face,
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 1: of a track and bowl. Let's stay down the road.
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 1: I was down the road. Uh. It winds up being that,
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: Uh you've done this a handful of times and maybe
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 1: even killed one with a track pole, and people are like,
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: did you really kill all them bears of that track
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: and pool? And I can't say it ain't true, right,
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: It all of a sudden, pretty soon you're just like
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: that crazy Johnnie, that guy in his check. But you're like,
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 1: my god, I'll tell you a story, you know, and
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: it's just pretty soon you kind of create like a
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 1: larger than life. And it was like in the end,
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 1: you did hit a baron ahead of the track and pole.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: That's pretty awesome. Oh yeah, I mean that you did that,
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 1: don't mess. I know, like see that power ring on
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 1: his hands him? Is that Oh yeah, that'll comatch, you know,
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 1: blinding blinding flash of silver. Right. But I mean I
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: think that's a that's an excellent explanation of how it works.
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: You know. Um, it builds from the lower and you know,
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: you're like, you're not gonna like, right now, are you
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: gonna argue the fact that you if somebody said, yeah,
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 1: like the bar there you have bad mo phone took
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 1: down a bear, you know shooks. Well nothing, um, what
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: else you got. I've just been looking at while we've
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: been talking about this, the spots where Greeley went Fort
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 1: Conger and the map around that area. Man, looks like
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: a bad place spent a couple of years. Well yeah,
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 1: especially when um, you know, when the sun congress as
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 1: farthest north. They made it no, no, they so from
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 1: Fort Conger they made it to like eighty two degrees
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: four spike camps. Yeah, I mean that's when they would
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 1: go off in the sledges, right, So they made expeditionary
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: treks out, which were really dangerous too, because there was
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 1: always the danger of breaking through the ice. Um. Part
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 1: of the reason that green landing dudes were so useful
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: is that they could they could read the ice. They
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 1: would know, you know, um how thin it was that
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: they were. They they spend their lives there, whereas the
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 1: army guys were learning on the fly, and these green
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 1: landed guys would say like, don't go don't go there. Yeah,
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: there's a point where they're looking at a chunk of
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 1: ice want or they get across it and they see
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: how walrus is their busting their heads up through. Oh, man,
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 1: and he's like, if the warris can bust his head
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: up through it, you can't go. Yeah, and then then
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 1: they have to like retreat. But yeah, so they went
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: considerably farther north than Fort Conger Um. You know, I
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 1: think I think it was thirty days out um on
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 1: the sledge to get to the farthest north and then
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 1: thirty days back. It's just unbelievable, ladies and gentlemen. It's
• 2:14:41
  Speaker 1: got hunting, it's got starving, it's got ice crossing, fox
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 1: shooting people eating laveryn device. Thank you man, Phil. Yeah,
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to pay money for the book December. You
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: know what, I'm gonna tell everyone that works here. I
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 1: don't know how many copies this around the office, but
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 1: I'm an account for all of them. And I'm not
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: letting Phil go near to Sun's bitches and fills buying
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: his own right now, Phil, gladly, yep, getting in my
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 1: cart right now here we go. It's just close seal
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: the deal. It's actually I'm just put in your cart.
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 1: Let me see, send me that little order, show us
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: that little order complete button. Yeah, you know you're you're
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: you're saying it's that December is not a good mind today.
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 1: It's actually the cold Read Amazon an Amazon top ten
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 1: pick um for the month of December. Hello, I'm very
• 2:15:33
  Speaker 1: psyched about that. So when you're sitting there all cold, Yeah,
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 1: like you think you're cold? What I really want to
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 1: be called? Uh? You tell your foot falls off and
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 1: you don't know it. Don't tell me about believe that
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 1: you have to tell the guy. They don't have the
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 1: heart to tell him, Like your foot just fell off
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 1: while we were talking. Great out of the tent. At
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: that point, you can't really be there mentally. Oh, I mean,
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 1: if your foot just fell off and you didn't know it,
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 1: it's a little bad. Everything's not firing. This is the
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 1: last thing about these guys. They have this like massochistic
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 1: tendency to uh sit around and even right down, like
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 1: even right down. If I could have anything to eat,
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 1: here's what it would be. And that's an interesting list
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 1: because the stuff they eat isn't like what you know,
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 1: you'd like pepperoni pizza, right. These dudes are like, um,
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 1: these guys are like Pete de foi gras. Some of
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 1: them they think of their like lentil soup, elaborate meal
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 1: they've ever had, like in or and by the way,
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 1: have you ever been like, of course you have, but
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 1: like super freaking hungry, and you do start having these
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 1: elaborate food fantasies, right, and you sit there and go
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 1: and it's you're right, it's totally massa because they can't
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 1: have any of it. They're eating freaking seal blubber. You
• 2:16:50
  Speaker 1: know where my mind goes where those when you go
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 1: into a gas station and they got that glass display
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 1: case full all that brown food. I sometimes think about
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 1: if I could just get into one of those glass cases,
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 1: or if our diet is different. I'm thinking about a salad.
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 1: It's either I want like a great salad or I
• 2:17:08
  Speaker 1: want to like bust the glass case out with a
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 1: rock and eat all that deep fried bridles and whatever
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 1: they got. Con dogs. I'm all about beef, you know,
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 1: corn dogs and pizza and like fried mac and cheese.
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, if you can fry it. A way
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 1: to fry up some mac and cheese, That's what I
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 1: get thinking about. H Yanni gets thinking about that breast milk.
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 1: Let's gonna get some lunch down. Boys. Hey, al right,
• 2:17:39
  Speaker 1: it's been great. You have to come back. I appreciate it. Man,
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 1: there's there's a couple other stories that I haven't even
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 1: told you. Not you roll six books. We only talked
• 2:17:46
  Speaker 1: about two of them. Well, he don't even have anything
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: to do with the books or other stuff I did.
• 2:17:50
  Speaker 1: But you know, I want to have you back. We're
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 1: gonna just like uh, one time we had a guy
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 1: on I wanted to mind again, and I just asked
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 1: him how long would need to go by before we
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: ask if you want to come back? What do you say?
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 1: A year? Because he wanted to finish a book he's
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 1: working on. Yeah, well, so I gotta when you get that,
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: you get that, uh claud Dallas Man, get that Claude
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 1: Dallas book wrapped up? Yeah. I actually am in the
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 1: throws of trying to figure out the next move. What man, Yeah,
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: I mean Claude has been covered though an Yeah, yeah,
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 1: long time about well has he been covered? Well? No, yeah,
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 1: everything's been all the low hanging fruit has been plucked. Man. Okay, yeah,
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 1: that's always the question. But you know, I'm trying to
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: enjoy this one. Like you know, as you know, writing
• 2:18:36
  Speaker 1: books is really kind of hard, and it's solitary, and
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 1: you're it's the worst thing in the world. We're sitting there,
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 1: and then so I got a book coming out, you know,
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 1: in December, and everybody's like, well, so what's the next one?
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm like, lick, writing books is horrible. Uh,
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 1: all right, Buddy Leavy Labyrinth, Device to Triumphant and Tragic,
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: and if you're so inclined, Cannibalistic Greeley Polar Expedition. And
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 1: also we discussed at length American Legend, the real life
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 1: adventures of Davy Crockett. I'm assuming all your books are
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 1: available wherever books are sold, you bet you. And and
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 1: then to really piss off all the booksellers, I'm assuming
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 1: you can get them on Amazon. I think. So, okay,
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 1: thank you very much, Thanks a lot man,