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Summer Series - Healthy Hustle vs. Hard Hustle with James Bartrop · Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós

• 0:00
  Nicky: Hello and welcome to 2025.
• 0:03
  Nicky: We want to kick off this year by sharing some of your favorite podcast episodes from 2024.
• 0:09
  Nicky: And so we're going to start with a bang by sharing with you the conversation that we had with James Bartrop.
• 0:16
  Nicky: This episode was all about understanding the difference between unhealthy hard hustle versus healthy hustle, and what a better time of year to really pause and reflect on what type of hustle you're bringing to your business, because we know that we need healthy hustle for momentum to take action, for energy drive, but we also know that we need to make sure that we're not falling into unhealthy habits.
• 0:41
  Nicky: So this conversation with James is such a great opportunity for you to reflect on.
• 0:46
  Nicky: What do you resonate from James's story five years ago, when we first met him and started working with him, to where he is now, where he's not tethered to his business.
• 0:56
  Nicky: He has achieved growth year-on-year growth in terms of revenue, profit, growing the team and he has more time to spend with his family, with his wife, doing the things that he loves.
• 1:09
  Nicky: So we hope that you enjoy this, even if you remember hearing this episode again.
• 1:14
  Nicky: What's something new that you can take from this?
• 1:17
  Nicky: And I really encourage you to pick one thing from this episode that you really want to look at applying into this new year.
• 1:24
  Nicky: Enjoy Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nicky
• 1:32
  Nicky: and.
• 1:32
  Ness: Ness.
• 1:33
  Ness: We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne respectively, where Nicky and I both work and live.
• 1:51
  Nicky: When we think of great examples of business owners that are absolutely living the healthy hustle, james Bartrop comes to mind immediately.
• 1:59
  Nicky: James is the director and founder of Shadowsafe, a prominent cybersecurity company based in Brisbane.
• 2:05
  Nicky: About seven years into his established and successful business, he was looking for a different way, a better way of being successful.
• 2:14
  Nicky: That didn't have to happen at all cost Cost of time with family, cost of energy, feeling healthy, happy and cost of being able to be present with his kids and with his wife, who he attributes so much of his business success to Shout out to Danielle Now.
• 2:31
  Nicky: We met James about five years ago when he was looking for this better way, and it's been incredible to watch the journey, the success in terms of revenue 98% year-on-year growth on average over the five years we've been working together and this is from an established, already profitable business.
• 2:48
  Nicky: But the thing is that those revenue results actually haven't been the thing that we've celebrated the most.
• 2:53
  Nicky: It's been the fact that he now has time with his family, he has his sanity back, his health back and he's still successful in business.
• 3:02
  Nicky: So we were really thrilled to be able to have this conversation with James today.
• 3:07
  Nicky: We wanted to bring him on the podcast so that we could pick his brain on your behalf, around the things that led to his success, that led to the bumps in the road and also there's still bumps in the road but how to overcome that or work through that with the healthy hustle.
• 3:22
  Nicky: And, of course, what does healthy hustle mean to James these days?
• 3:26
  Nicky: Enjoy the episode.
• 3:27
  Nicky: Hello and welcome back everybody to this week's episode.
• 3:31
  Nicky: We are really thrilled to get this week's episode out to you because we have the wonderful James Bartrop of Shadow Safe here joining us, as you well know from the introduction, and this is really special.
• 3:43
  Nicky: This is a very special episode for us.
• 3:45
  Nicky: It's very close to our heart because Ness and I have written a book all about healthy hustle.
• 3:51
  Nicky: We are sick of the old school hardcore push, push, push, push, push till you drop ways of working and yet appreciate that actually we do need a bit of hustle.
• 4:02
  Nicky: We don't need a bit of hustle to succeed in business, but the way that we so often do it just doesn't work.
• 4:09
  Nicky: And this is what healthy hustle is.
• 4:11
  Nicky: It's about knowing that balance of when to push, knowing that balance of when to pull back.
• 4:15
  Nicky: So we still have tenacity, drive, determination and we can do it in a way where we actually have time to enjoy life with our family.
• 4:23
  Nicky: So when we were writing the book, when we think about examples of healthy hustle, it was an absolute no-brainer to get into the conversation with James, who we've been working with for a number of years, because watching his dare I say journey to healthy hustle from the hardcore old school narrative that we want to move away from to where he is today in his business is nothing short of inspiring.
• 4:46
  Nicky: So, james, welcome, thank you for joining us, and thank you also for sharing your story so openly and your experiences to the point that you're actually the opening story in the book.
• 4:57
  Nicky: You're the hero of the opening of the book.
• 5:02
  James Bartrop: Yay.
• 5:03
  James Bartrop: Thank you so much, Nicky and Ness.
• 5:04
  James Bartrop: For me it's such an honor to be not only part of this podcast today, but also to have a pretty decent mention in your new book and to be able to read that before any other eyes have had the chance to read that man.
• 5:19
  James Bartrop: It was really special.
• 5:20
  Nicky: That's awesome and it's a testament to the work that you've done, to you showing up for yourself, for your family.
• 5:26
  Nicky: I remember one of our very, very first conversations that we had was around you saying I want my life back.
• 5:33
  Nicky: I want to be able to have dinner at the table with my family and not feel like someone's waiting around the corner for the next thing with my phone on the table just always being needed.
• 5:43
  Nicky: So I want to kick off by asking you think back to those early days of business, and even beyond, when we first met.
• 5:49
  Nicky: What was your definition of success in those early days of business?
• 5:55
  James Bartrop: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 5:56
  James Bartrop: It's embarrassing for me to say this, but it was succeed at all costs and the way that I defined that was, and I made excuses about it as well.
• 6:07
  James Bartrop: I said my family need me to be the breadwinner.
• 6:10
  James Bartrop: They need me to work hard so that I can provide for them.
• 6:13
  James Bartrop: I made all sorts of reasons as to why it was okay to work the way that I was, which was really unhealthy in a lot of ways.
• 6:19
  James Bartrop: My physical health was suffering.
• 6:21
  James Bartrop: I wasn't exercising.
• 6:23
  James Bartrop: I was behind my desk all the time, as you alluded to.
• 6:26
  James Bartrop: I had the phone sitting next to me at the dinner table waiting for that ding to go off.
• 6:31
  James Bartrop: I had this constant state of anxiousness because I was wondering what was the next thing that was going to happen that would need my attention.
• 6:39
  James Bartrop: And I remember vividly and it was quite a fork in the road for me where the kids I picked the kids up from school and they'd say dad, can we just have a day where you don't have to make phone calls on the way home?
• 6:52
  James Bartrop: And for me that was a moment where I was like, oh my goodness, I need to change something.
• 6:58
  Ness: Wow, Children are great, aren't they?
• 7:00
  Ness: They are just like.
• 7:02
  Ness: Let's punch you in the middle of the eyes and give you some feedback right here, right now.
• 7:08
  James Bartrop: It's good what you said there.
• 7:09
  James Bartrop: They give you the unfiltered.
• 7:11
  James Bartrop: They're not considering the words that are coming out of their mouth in a way that we might reframe them as adults.
• 7:19
  James Bartrop: They just give you the version that they see, which can be quite hurtful, and it's not their fault that they give it to you that way.
• 7:26
  James Bartrop: It's what they see and it's how they interpret what they see.
• 7:29
  Ness: That's right, and I think that sometimes we go into justification, like all the reasons you had in your mind around why you need to work hard probably would have come to the forefront first.
• 7:39
  James Bartrop: Absolutely.
• 7:40
  Ness: And it's the sitting back later on, thinking about that and thinking about the impact you're having on them and what they're seeing about you, that starts to create that shift in mindset.
• 7:50
  Ness: So would you say then that that was one of, or the major change.
• 7:57
  James Bartrop: It was only one of, I would say, and I would even probably go as far as saying that the way in which I reacted to them in that moment was probably not great either.
• 8:05
  James Bartrop: I probably said things like you don't understand.
• 8:08
  James Bartrop: You don't know how much is on my shoulders as far as why I'm working the way that I am, so a bit-.
• 8:17
  Ness: This is all for you.
• 8:18
  James Bartrop: Yeah, that's right.
• 8:19
  James Bartrop: You ungrateful little twins, this is your private school fees as to why I'm here.
• 8:23
  James Bartrop: This is why you have a roof over your head All those things that you can make excuses about really easily.
• 8:29
  James Bartrop: And I think back to when I first started my business.
• 8:32
  James Bartrop: I didn't start my business to be a slave to it.
• 8:35
  James Bartrop: I didn't start my business so that it took and consumed all my time.
• 8:39
  James Bartrop: That's not why I did it.
• 8:41
  James Bartrop: I did it for them, so that I had the freedom or flexibility to be able to go to their sport event, to be able to be a part of a reward ceremony that they had at school.
• 8:50
  James Bartrop: That was why I did it fundamentally, and I'd moved so far away from the actual reason for why I started my business.
• 8:57
  Ness: Yeah, wow.
• 8:58
  Ness: And so what would you say now has shifted in your definition of success?
• 9:02
  James Bartrop: Really good question.
• 9:03
  James Bartrop: I think my whole frame has changed around.
• 9:06
  James Bartrop: Why I'm in business now.
• 9:08
  James Bartrop: Reframing to be not about me is probably the first thing.
• 9:12
  James Bartrop: It's not about my success.
• 9:14
  James Bartrop: It's not about what I've built, I think, for a long time and this is something Nicky helped me work on considerably, and there was some teary coaching sessions where we actually peeled the layers of the onion back to actually work out what the core of the issue is.
• 9:28
  James Bartrop: I think for a long time I was trying to prove myself to my dad in particular.
• 9:33
  James Bartrop: I saw the definition of success from his perspective and that was that he would leave very early in the morning, he'd get home very late in the evening, dinner would be prepared for him, ready on the table, and he'd just roll straight in and be at the dinner table.
• 9:49
  James Bartrop: I thought that's what success looked like.
• 9:51
  James Bartrop: I thought that part of the success was going to work with dad on a Saturday because he had to do a little bit more and we'd play hide and seek in his office building while he would find me.
• 10:02
  James Bartrop: But as I learned later, he was actually working and giving me the satisfaction of thinking that I was really hard to find.
• 10:09
  James Bartrop: Oh no, what a clever.
• 10:11
  James Bartrop: So for me now I've had to reframe what success looks like.
• 10:20
  James Bartrop: And again, between the two of you, you've said things like I remember saying to Nicky I need to put the oxygen mask on the kids first.
• 10:30
  James Bartrop: I'm happy to sacrifice myself for them, but the reality is that that's not what they want.
• 10:36
  James Bartrop: They want me to be around, they want me to be healthy, they want me to spend time with them, to enjoy life with them.
• 10:42
  James Bartrop: Spend time with them, to enjoy life with them.
• 10:44
  James Bartrop: So I'd got a lot of things around the wrong way and it was hard for me to come to grips with the fact that I needed to put my oxygen mask on first and I needed to look after myself first.
• 10:54
  James Bartrop: So I would say that's the big change is that I now put my oxygen mask on first, so that I can then help them and be with them in a much more healthy manner than I was previously.
• 11:09
  Ness: Hmm, I wanted to ask and I think I do know the answer to this but was there a cost financially for you making that shift in the business?
• 11:20
  James Bartrop: Was there a cost?
• 11:21
  James Bartrop: I would say yes and no.
• 11:22
  James Bartrop: The yes component would be that if I was working 24-7, the obvious outcome would be that I would have a bigger business today.
• 11:31
  James Bartrop: So yes, there's a cost there, but I think about it in a different way, that the cost is much greater if I didn't make a change.
• 11:39
  James Bartrop: Consider my kids growing up and not knowing who I am.
• 11:42
  James Bartrop: Consider my relationship with my wife.
• 11:45
  James Bartrop: If I don't invest in my kids and in my wife and our relationships, then I could turn around at some point and they would be justified to say I don't know who you are and want to go in separate directions.
• 12:00
  Nicky: I love.
• 12:01
  Nicky: Thank you for sharing, and there's a lot that you're sharing as well that isn't in the book, you know.
• 12:05
  Nicky: So it's really incredible to go that layer deeper as well, around really what that definition of success is, because the whole premise of this healthy hustle is that the thing that has gotten us to the unhealthy hustle it's our beliefs, it's our belief systems, and where did they come from?
• 12:22
  Nicky: It does come from stories of our parents and the world around us, and I'm sure I know that there's people that are listening and watching that would resonate so much with what you've said and I really, really applaud you for making that change for your kids, the role model that they see, how they will.
• 12:39
  Nicky: It's breaking cycles.
• 12:41
  Nicky: Such a huge thing about everything that Ness and I do is about how do we break cycles which our parents and the generations before we can say they were doing the best that they did with what they had.
• 12:52
  Nicky: But we can do different, we can take the baton and make another little improvement, and then our kids are going to do the same, or the kids of this generation.
• 13:00
  Nicky: So that definition of success being I put my oxygen mask on first to therefore be there for a better partner, for a better parent, for a better business owner, a better boss, a better leader.
• 13:14
  Nicky: We talk in the book about the importance of taking holidays and actually switching off, which is something you do now you celebrate so much, and also the people around you that give you that unfiltered truth.
• 13:26
  Nicky: So kids are a great way to do that and even if you don't have kids, as other people hopefully in your life that will give you that unfiltered truth Siblings, partners, and if they don't guess, who's giving it to you now?
• 13:38
  Ness: The three of us To those of you that are listening that are in this conversation right now.
• 13:42
  Nicky: We are giving you this unfiltered truth.
• 13:45
  Nicky: So when we look at this kind of journey, is there anything else that you want to add to that?
• 13:50
  Nicky: That was just a little summary, really.
• 13:52
  James Bartrop: Yeah, no, that's awesome.
• 13:53
  James Bartrop: Probably the only thing I want to add to that is that I spent too much attention analyzing other businesses that would like mine and thinking, man, I want that.
• 14:05
  James Bartrop: How did they do that?
• 14:07
  James Bartrop: Let me work harder so I can achieve that.
• 14:09
  James Bartrop: And then, when I actually started to connect with those business owners on a human level, I found that not everything was perfect in their business.
• 14:16
  James Bartrop: Not everything was as it looked from the outside looking in, and so there was a bit of reassurance there that my business doesn't have to be perfect either.
• 14:23
  James Bartrop: The business that I'm looking at from the outside in it has also got its own faults that it's dealing with, and in fact I like my faults because they're what I'm used to versus what they're dealing with.
• 14:36
  James Bartrop: I don't want what they're dealing with.
• 14:38
  James Bartrop: So that was a bit of an awareness piece that I had to come to grips with, that I didn't need to keep up with the Joneses, because maybe the Joneses don't really have what I want.
• 14:48
  Nicky: It's so true.
• 14:48
  Nicky: It's like the people that have the big house, the car, but everything is on loan, like they don't own anything and it looks all great from the outside, but what's really going on?
• 14:56
  Nicky: Have you?
• 14:58
  Ness: heard.
• 14:58
  Ness: Our book Healthy Hustle, the new blueprint to thrive in business and life, is available right now to purchase.
• 15:05
  Ness: In Healthy Hustle, we take you through real world, practical and achievable steps to move you away from unhealthy hustle to a place of happiness and living, whilst continuing to achieve incredible business results.
• 15:18
  Ness: Order your copy now at healthyhustlecomau.
• 15:22
  Nicky: Another thing that I think really worthwhile bringing into this conversation is around.
• 15:26
  Nicky: You know, I know that in just before the time that we started working again, you were on that trajectory of growth, but you consciously chose to pause even from a revenue generating business building avenue to actually readjust and reset, and what that actually then from the outside and you know, looking in and working with you is.
• 15:46
  Nicky: It allowed you then to actually have some pretty rapid growth over the last four or five years, and there's this whole thing around.
• 15:53
  Nicky: Sometimes we need to slow down to speed up.
• 15:56
  Nicky: So when you talked about the cost, there could have been a financial cost probably not a profit in the way of profit, maybe in terms of looking amazing on the outside, but who you are as you progress and the healthy, happy human you are.
• 16:10
  Nicky: Also, though, from a profit point of view, from the systems and structure that's set up.
• 16:14
  Nicky: That was really something that struck me as well about how you are and were open to kind of, yeah, slowing down to be able to speed up, and you did get that exponential growth in a better way.
• 16:26
  Nicky: Is there anything, any kind of tips or insights around that that you think would be worth sharing with our audience?
• 16:32
  James Bartrop: Absolutely, and I really like that you brought that point up, because it makes me think that all business is not good business.
• 16:38
  James Bartrop: So I had to stop.
• 16:40
  James Bartrop: I had to redefine what my ideal client looked like.
• 16:43
  James Bartrop: I had to create some business rules around what we were happy to accept.
• 16:48
  James Bartrop: Let me say it like that as far as behaviors are concerned, as far as how we thought the relationship should operate so that it's beneficial for both parties and by doing that it meant that I reassessed what our actual offering was before just bringing new business on that might contribute to the problem rather than contribute to the solution.
• 17:09
  James Bartrop: So, stopping and reassessing where I was at, trying to understand is the profit not there because there's not enough work, or is it not there because we're not selling our products appropriately?
• 17:22
  Ness: Because I would imagine that if your definition of success was work hard, that if your definition of success was work hard, make money and then you stop and pause, there'd be some layers of fear coming up around everything I know up until now.
• 17:39
  Ness: That's got me this level of success.
• 17:40
  Ness: If I change that, what?
• 17:41
  James Bartrop: happens if I lose it.
• 17:42
  Ness: Yes, did that go on for you.
• 17:43
  James Bartrop: Absolutely.
• 17:44
  James Bartrop: But again I had to come back to the fact that not all business was good business.
• 17:48
  James Bartrop: I was growing something that was just getting bigger and busier.
• 17:51
  James Bartrop: That's what I was growing.
• 17:53
  James Bartrop: I wanted to be able to grow in a more smart way, and so stopping and doing that reassessment piece was a critical part.
• 18:02
  James Bartrop: Otherwise, I was just going to become busier and, sure, maybe I'd have a bigger team, but we'd all be busy being busy rather than actually providing good value to our clients.
• 18:11
  James Bartrop: Something that I think is important to say is that in the early days, we took on anything from anyone, and I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing.
• 18:20
  James Bartrop: I think that when you're first starting out in business, doing anything for anyone can be quite helpful, but try not to do that forever, because it probably won't satisfy you and satisfy what you're trying to achieve out of the business.
• 18:33
  Ness: That sounds like that's the hustle piece.
• 18:35
  Ness: Right, we've got to hustle to build momentum, to get it going.
• 18:38
  Ness: But if we continue on the trajectory of hustling, we forget to stop to be healthy.
• 18:44
  Nicky: Yeah, that's right.
• 18:44
  Ness: So what would some of the changes that you made that you can say around the slowing down that are integral to the success of your business now that you perhaps didn't have in your thought process prior to this pause button?
• 19:00
  James Bartrop: So the pause button helped us make sure that our systems and processes were well-defined.
• 19:06
  James Bartrop: And still, as I grow, we still find systems and processes that need to be improved.
• 19:12
  James Bartrop: So for me, it's that canny approach continual and never-ending improvement.
• 19:17
  James Bartrop: The business is never going to be perfect, but something worthy of noting as well is I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I had to overcome the idea that done is better than perfect.
• 19:29
  James Bartrop: These are all things that I've heard you say, by the way, so for me to repeat them back to you feels really, really odd.
• 19:36
  James Bartrop: So stopping and realizing that getting that new product out the door, even though it might not have all the polish put on it, that was okay because the fundamental components of that product were right, the financial components were right and the value that it provided to the clients was right, and often it was just, oh, the proposal that I'm sending to that client's not quite pretty enough.
• 20:01
  James Bartrop: It was more often things like that that were not actually part of the value that I was trying to deliver.
• 20:08
  Nicky: Who would have thought, james, you would be on a podcast all these years later saying done is better than perfect?
• 20:15
  James Bartrop: I know Me five years ago would have struggled to say anything like that.
• 20:20
  Ness: Yes, You'd be like what my brain doesn't compute this.
• 20:24
  James Bartrop: No, no, probably.
• 20:26
  James Bartrop: Something else that I went through around that same time was are these types of clients right for us and are we right for them?
• 20:35
  James Bartrop: It's somewhere around the 2018, 2019 period.
• 20:40
  James Bartrop: We went through our whole client database and we had cafes and restaurants and gyms and those sorts of businesses in our client list and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those clients.
• 20:52
  James Bartrop: We just weren't right for them and they weren't right for us and wind the clock forward to COVID.
• 20:58
  James Bartrop: Having those clients as a big percentage of our business would have been really quite detrimental.
• 21:05
  Ness: Yeah.
• 21:06
  Nicky: Wow, and also I remember you talking about this even setting up the business with the systems and structure to serve those types of clients.
• 21:13
  Nicky: They need support after hours, on weekends, and your particular business.
• 21:17
  Nicky: That was not the kind of business that you wanted to set up.
• 21:20
  Nicky: I mean, you still support your clients outside of normal working hours, but I think the level of support that they needed, I think correct me if I'm wrong so the conscious decision to go actually, what is the future vision that I have of my business?
• 21:33
  Nicky: What is my personal vision?
• 21:35
  Nicky: Ie, I want to be the kind of parent that is at home with their kids, picking the kids up from school, going to the sporting events.
• 21:42
  Nicky: How does my business as a vehicle meet these needs?
• 21:46
  Nicky: Is that something that I want?
• 21:47
  Nicky: So this is also something you know it's really important to look at.
• 21:50
  Nicky: If you, you know, in this conversation with us, listening and watching, what is your business vision and what is your personal vision and how do the two meet?
• 21:57
  Nicky: Because if the two don't connect with each other, there's always going to be a misalignment and you're going to fall into the unhealthy hustle.
• 22:04
  Nicky: So for you, James, even looking at what's these types of clients, what is their need.
• 22:09
  Nicky: Can I deliver that and still fit in with the business and personal vision, making the decision?
• 22:14
  Nicky: Actually no, which would have, I imagine, been pretty tough and a whole process.
• 22:19
  Nicky: But then, of course, not only did you build the business of your well, I assume, of your dreams, We'll ask you that question in a moment, you know but making the tough decisions and asking the tough questions and making sure that it is.
• 22:32
  Nicky: Is this the future business I want to build?
• 22:35
  James Bartrop: I really like what you just said there it the way that we restructured the business made me really value the component of asking good questions of the client as well, because I think that for everyone who is in business, you need to make sure that they're right for you as well, as much as we're trying to prove that we're right for them.
• 22:57
  James Bartrop: I've had to become more comfortable with saying no to people when the fit isn't quite right.
• 23:02
  James Bartrop: We've done that recently where, as a cybersecurity firm, there's certain things that every business must be doing in order to protect their business and a really quick way for us to understand how much they value the service and the solution that we're bringing to their business comes down to price.
• 23:21
  James Bartrop: If they're wanting to remove certain components of the solution that we're trying to bring to them, then it provide after-hours support, but, based on the types of clients that we work with, there's very few that operate outside of business hours and, because we ensure and we do everything that we can to put the right products in place for them, there's very few things that happen outside of business hours that hinder them from being able to continue to operate.
• 24:07
  Nicky: And the important thing about that as well is that there's?
• 24:08
  Nicky: other businesses that can take care of them better, that are set up In this example taking care of restaurants and hospitality, et cetera.
• 24:12
  Nicky: They're set up for that.
• 24:13
  Nicky: So by freeing those clients that don't fit the ideal way that you can serve them.
• 24:20
  Nicky: For all of us it's like a relationship we're freeing them to find a better fit for them.
• 24:25
  Nicky: So sometimes it can be really hard when we start to practice no, and a big part of healthy hustle is saying no.
• 24:30
  Nicky: This is one example of how, and if you kind of feel a little bit bad, if you're listening like, oh I don't know how, just think you're freeing them so that someone can take care of them better, and talking about that qualifying process, so really thinking, what is it for you?
• 24:49
  Nicky: That is James's version of okay, so I'm balking at the price or I'm asking questions around this what's your process early on, where you're qualifying them, where you start to go?
• 24:55
  Nicky: I just know that this isn't going to be the right fit for either of us, so I'm going to set them free and let them find someone that will actually better serve them.
• 25:08
  James Bartrop: And that frees me up to find my ideal clients.
• 25:09
  James Bartrop: Probably the other positive side of making that decision to not have a whole lot of clients that need support out of ours is the team and the impact on the team.
• 25:13
  James Bartrop: As you're aware, I've not built a team that is 24 by 7.
• 25:18
  James Bartrop: We're not geared to that sort of business and nor do we need to be, based on the types of clients that we deal with.
• 25:23
  James Bartrop: I didn't want to make that phone call on a Saturday to say, hey Carlos, hey Leo, hey Damien, hey Ryan, can you go out and solve this problem for a client?
• 25:34
  James Bartrop: I wanted them to have a life, too, where they know that come knockoff time.
• 25:39
  James Bartrop: For 99% of the time that means knockoff.
• 25:41
  James Bartrop: There's very few moments where they're actually disturbed in their own personal time.
• 25:46
  Ness: It's interesting you raise that because you talk about your development over the years and the way you've shifted your belief system and stepped into this concept of healthy hustle what that means for you.
• 25:58
  Ness: I'm curious for you to reflect on you as a leader and what you think has changed since, perhaps when you had that belief around success when you started your business, as you were growing a team to where you sit, with your influence as a leader now.
• 26:14
  James Bartrop: That's a really good question and, again, I'm a little bit embarrassed to share this bit of information with you.
• 26:19
  James Bartrop: You both know how I'm going to respond to this, I think, and that is that, as the business owner, I expected everyone else to work as hard as me.
• 26:26
  James Bartrop: That was something that I struggled with for a very long time and it affected the way that I even communicated with the team.
• 26:32
  James Bartrop: That upset them because, honestly, my expectations of them was much, much higher than it should have been, because I was expecting them to work as hard as me.
• 26:42
  Ness: Yeah, and so now, what would you say?
• 26:44
  Ness: You do differently.
• 26:46
  James Bartrop: I think, as a result of the decisions that we made around the types of clients that we bring on, we've got dual way respect between our clients, as in we respect them and they respect us.
• 26:57
  James Bartrop: I think that's the key part there, and our communication has become a whole lot better as well.
• 27:00
  James Bartrop: I think that's the key part there, and our communication has become a whole lot better as well.
• 27:03
  James Bartrop: I think 99% of problems can be solved with communication and to be on the front foot with that early on in the engagement to say listen, we were able to help you outside of hours, but it's not something that we put a service level agreement around.
• 27:18
  James Bartrop: We're here to help you, but from time to time that's going to take a little bit longer than maybe you would like it to.
• 27:24
  James Bartrop: Because of these reasons and the ones that I've already alluded to, I think that a key change for me is that I should never expect anyone in my business to work as hard as me.
• 27:36
  James Bartrop: It's my business.
• 27:37
  James Bartrop: I've got the most to gain fundamentally from working hard, but I also have had to learn to work in a healthy hustle type of a way, rather than an unhealthy one.
• 27:48
  James Bartrop: That leads me back down the route that I did earlier on in business.
• 27:51
  James Bartrop: And don't get me wrong, from time to time I do have those late nights, so there's a time where I have to get back in and do things that I don't necessarily want to, but need to be done in order to progress something forward.
• 28:04
  James Bartrop: That needs the attention in that moment, but it's not for long periods of time.
• 28:08
  James Bartrop: And I also just have a quick chat to the family and say hey, listen, I need to exclude myself tonight for sorting this problem out.
• 28:17
  James Bartrop: It's only going to be for one night.
• 28:18
  James Bartrop: Sorry about that.
• 28:19
  James Bartrop: I need to go and sort this out.
• 28:23
  Nicky: Even the communication around that, and I think that's a really important point you make, James, because that's exactly right.
• 28:28
  Nicky: We're not here to say that there's not going to be times where we have to work those extra hours.
• 28:32
  Nicky: We have to pull our socks up and do that early start or even do some work on the weekend or whatever that might be, but it's temporary.
• 28:39
  Nicky: It's not the habit, it's not the pattern.
• 28:42
  Nicky: There's intention behind it, there's communication to the people around us.
• 28:47
  Nicky: It's like when we talk in the book about entrepreneurial addiction and looking at the six signs, which we have another podcast episode on, we might pop that in here and get the book and have a read and you'll find out even more in there.
• 29:00
  Nicky: But that is one of the key things is how is it affecting the people around us?
• 29:04
  Nicky: I also want to say you know, observing you and how you've changed as a leader as your team have grown, one of the big things that you've done is looked at.
• 29:12
  Nicky: Is this understanding around also, like they're not mind readers?
• 29:17
  Nicky: Okay so they're not going to know exactly this level of whatever it is that we're expecting.
• 29:21
  Nicky: So, so they're not going to know exactly this level of whatever it is that we're expecting.
• 29:23
  Nicky: So the processes that have been implemented, the standards and documentation around clarity of expectations you know this is really key because then you're giving your team not just you, james, you know all of us, but everyone that's listening and watching you're giving your team an opportunity to step up.
• 29:37
  Nicky: If we don't have the right systems and structures to be able to set clear expectations of what is expected, what is minimum standard, what is above and beyond, what's celebrated, then if we don't have that, we're not giving our people the chance to actually not just survive in the business but thrive in the business.
• 29:54
  Nicky: So I've seen you implement that really well and I've also seen your team get more empowered around that.
• 30:00
  James Bartrop: You make a good point there, and I remember reflect back on an interview that I had with a team member that's no longer with us back in the early days.
• 30:08
  James Bartrop: I still remember saying here's a little bit to know about me.
• 30:11
  James Bartrop: So I always talk about me as well when I'm interviewing someone, so that they know who they're working with.
• 30:16
  James Bartrop: And to this day it just rings in my head as not something that I want to continue to repeat to anyone moving forward, and that is that when dealing with me, you're going to get the smallest amount of information possible and I expect that you're going to know what to do with that and run with it, because I'm busy, I'm always running around, I'm between appointments constantly and I think back and think oh wow, I was not setting that person up for any level of success, I was setting a trap for them, in fact on.
• 30:47
  James Bartrop: I hope you can figure me out and sort it out quickly, Otherwise it's your fault.
• 30:52
  James Bartrop: That's kind of how I read between the lines To actually be able to spend quality time with the team now to do a proper handover is way more valuable, because I was just getting frustrated in that previous version of myself where why don't they understand what's going on and the problem was me.
• 31:10
  Ness: Yeah, what's wrong with them?
• 31:11
  James Bartrop: I wasn't exactly, and that's what I thought to myself initially, but then, when it kept happening, I went huh.
• 31:17
  James Bartrop: I probably need to stop for a second there and think where's the problem coming or what's the common element here?
• 31:22
  Ness: Yeah, that's right.
• 31:23
  Ness: Oh, that would be me.
• 31:24
  Nicky: Yeah.
• 31:24
  Nicky: So, james, thank you again for sharing the whole you know kind of journey.
• 31:28
  Nicky: You know very briefly, in 30 minutes.
• 31:29
  Nicky: There's so much more deeper we could go into, but I would love for you to share.
• 31:34
  Nicky: What does healthy hustle mean to you?
• 31:37
  James Bartrop: Great question.
• 31:38
  James Bartrop: Healthy hustle now is a little bit different.
• 31:43
  James Bartrop: I won't say it's completely different to the way that it was.
• 31:45
  James Bartrop: Again, like I alluded to, from time to time I need to do a little bit extra in order to push the business forward, but what it means now is that I have an early exit on a Monday, on a Wednesday and on a Friday where I pick the kids up from school and, from the moment I walk into the door when I get home, the phone's away, no more distractions for the remainder of the afternoon.
• 32:04
  James Bartrop: I'm now in a position where I can be completely present with the kids to help them with homework or to prepare dinner or whatever the case may be.
• 32:11
  James Bartrop: The other thing that I have started to implement and I do this at a year at a time is that I book moments away.
• 32:17
  James Bartrop: So at the beginning of this year we booked four holidays away.
• 32:21
  James Bartrop: It doesn't have to be overseas, it's just a week away that I can push towards, because during the hours that I still have available to me, I work really hard inside the timeframe that I have.
• 32:32
  James Bartrop: Saying no to things that shouldn't be, things that I do was another important part of that that I wasn't overloaded inside those hours doing things that really don't bring the business forward.
• 32:42
  James Bartrop: So, number one, having a plan for break time.
• 32:47
  James Bartrop: Having the plan on a page was a key thing.
• 32:50
  James Bartrop: What are we actually?
• 32:50
  James Bartrop: What's the key things that we're aiming for in the next 90 days that will bring about the 12-month goals that we've set?
• 32:57
  James Bartrop: And, yeah, being really diligent around those early exits, making sure that I have that time with the kids.
• 33:05
  Ness: I love that You're so congruent around what it means to you and I have seen you put those boundaries in place and it's really wonderful to hear.
• 33:13
  Ness: What I'd love to ask you as we wrap up is that if somebody's listening and they hear that sort of perhaps the earlier version of James in business that had the hustle at any cost kind of mentality and is getting that reaction you know the one that you had when your kids had the comment about could you please just not be on the phone so if somebody is in this sort of like I really want to change, I really want things to get better for me and I want to find this healthy hustle, whatever that means for me.
• 33:43
  Ness: What would you say as a starting point for them to be able to create that shift?
• 33:49
  Ness: What would be the first step?
• 33:51
  James Bartrop: The first thing that pops into my head is again, like I alluded to, what's the common denominator?
• 33:58
  James Bartrop: Are a number of people around me saying you're always saying you're busy and maybe they're not inviting you out to social events anymore?
• 34:05
  James Bartrop: Are you feeling disconnected from your friends and your family?
• 34:08
  James Bartrop: Stop and think about what's the cost Is building the business and sacrificing everything else?
• 34:14
  James Bartrop: Is that important enough for what the business will achieve for you?
• 34:19
  James Bartrop: If not, stop.
• 34:21
  James Bartrop: Set out your priorities on what is the most important thing to you, create a plan on how you can achieve that and then work hard, but work hard with the plan in tow.
• 34:32
  Ness: That is amazing.
• 34:33
  Ness: That actually gave me a bit of a chill when you said that, because it's what matters most in life, isn't it?
• 34:38
  Ness: That's what we've got to reconnect to.
• 34:39
  Ness: Thank you so much, james.
• 34:41
  Ness: You have been amazing.
• 34:42
  Ness: We love working with you and we have just thoroughly enjoyed having you on our podcast, and we trust that our listeners and watchers have enjoyed it just as much as we have.
• 34:50
  James Bartrop: Thank you so much for having me.
• 34:51
  James Bartrop: What a privilege.
• 34:52
  Ness: You're most welcome.
• 34:53
  Nicky: Thanks James, thanks everyone.
• 34:56
  Ness: Thanks for listening to today's ep.
• 34:58
  Ness: If you loved what you heard, connect with us over on LinkedIn and let's continue the conversation over there.
• 35:10
  Ness: Did you hear?
• 35:11
  Ness: You can now buy our book Healthy Hustle the new blueprint to thrive in business and life at healthyhustlecomau.
• 35:14
  Ness: Want us to speak to your team or run a workshop on healthy hustle in your workplace?
• 35:19
  Ness: Send us an email or go old school and give us a call to discuss.
• 35:23
  Ness: Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and life.