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Psychics, Crime and the $100,000 test · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:15
Speaker 1: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
0:17
Speaker 1: Adam Shand.
0:18
Speaker 2: Over the decades that I've been reporting on crime, I've
0:21
Speaker 2: conducted a very unscientific poll. Every detective that I meet,
0:25
Speaker 2: I ask them, have you ever worked with a psychic
0:27
Speaker 2: who's helped solve a crime or provided a clue that
0:30
Speaker 2: was useful? Sad to say, the count is still zero.
0:35
Speaker 2: Yet the media is full of people claiming to be
0:37
Speaker 2: psychic detectives who work with police to close cases. I
0:40
Speaker 2: live in hope that one day I will find a
0:43
Speaker 2: detective who's cracked the mystery using the mystical powers of
0:46
Speaker 2: the supernatural. So do the Australian sceptics who offer a.
0:51
Speaker 1: $ 100, 000 reward to anyone who can prove their powers are real.
0:55
Speaker 2: My guest today is Sceptics Challenge Coordinator and Psychic Investigator
0:59
Speaker 2: Richard Saunders.
1:01
Speaker 1: Richard Saunders, welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm
1:05
Speaker 1: very pleased to be here.
1:06
Speaker 2: As I said in the opening, I've had this very
1:12
Speaker 2: non-scientific survey going for many years where I asked detectives,
1:16
Speaker 2: has a psychic ever assisted them in solving a crime
1:20
Speaker 2: or providing leads?
1:21
Speaker 1: And I'm still zero. I'm still hopeful though.
1:23
Speaker 2: You've been doing this a lot longer and more scientifically.
1:29
Speaker 1: What's your conclusions?
1:31
Speaker 3: Psychics help police about as much as the butcher, the
1:34
Speaker 3: baker and the candlestick maker. And dogs find more corpses
1:40
Speaker 3: than psychics do. In other words, people walking their dogs,
1:44
Speaker 3: people going for a jog, doing any run-of-the-mill activity are
1:49
Speaker 3: more likely to find a missing body. It happens periodically.
1:54
Speaker 1: But why?
1:55
Speaker 3: Because sometimes people just stumble across these things.
1:59
Speaker 1: Well, they do.
2:00
Speaker 2: It's always the man and the dog. It's always the
2:02
Speaker 2: man and the dog, actually, in my experience. I take
2:04
Speaker 2: my dog for a walk every day. He finds nothing,
2:06
Speaker 2: but I'm hopeful as well about that.
2:08
Speaker 3: So in that respect, people say, well, what's the harm?
2:12
Speaker 3: Shouldn't police just ask psychics just in case? Well, the
2:17
Speaker 3: police should put their resources to something that actually does
2:20
Speaker 3: recover bodies. Police should invest heavily in people walking dogs.
2:24
Speaker 3: It would make far more sense from that point of view.
2:27
Speaker 1: Well, I think so.
2:28
Speaker 2: There's a whole other debate and podcast about that where
2:31
Speaker 2: we need to invest in cadaver dogs, which are bred
2:34
Speaker 2: and specialised for that purpose and where we're using general
2:37
Speaker 2: purposes dogs, which aren't that effective. So it is the
2:42
Speaker 2: average suburban hound that does all that work. But even
2:45
Speaker 2: though the objective evidence is not favourable towards psychics, they
2:50
Speaker 2: still continue to get a lot of media coverage and
2:54
Speaker 2: there is a strong feeling in the community that they
2:58
Speaker 2: can solve crimes why do we have this dissonance.
3:01
Speaker 3: Yeah it is and this is it's just like an
3:04
Speaker 3: urban myth that has really taken root first of all
3:07
Speaker 3: there's a strong feeling in a large section of the
3:10
Speaker 3: community that psychics are a thing they're actually people who
3:14
Speaker 3: have telepathic abilities or it messages some spirits or leprechauns
3:19
Speaker 3: or or great aunt mary or who knows what There's
3:22
Speaker 3: a large percentage of our population who think that is
3:25
Speaker 3: a reality, to really think there are people like this,
3:28
Speaker 3: coupled with very favorable media stories because it's a good story.
3:35
Speaker 3: And then people are very confused when someone like me
3:38
Speaker 3: comes along and says, you know, I hate to tell
3:40
Speaker 3: you this, but it really doesn't work. Then they look
3:44
Speaker 3: at me like I'm the crazy one thinking, well, don't
3:46
Speaker 3: be silly. We know psychic detectives are real. Police consult
3:49
Speaker 3: psychic detectives all the time. Psychics solve crimes and give
3:52
Speaker 3: police vital clues. Well, no, they don't. Psychics do not
3:58
Speaker 3: give police vital clues. In all the research we've done,
4:03
Speaker 3: psychics are a hindrance. They are a waste of time
4:07
Speaker 3: and effort. They lead police up wild, blind alleys and
4:11
Speaker 3: goose chases.
4:12
Speaker 2: Why?
4:13
Speaker 1: Because....
4:14
Speaker 3: In over 50 years of dedicated searching and researching and
4:18
Speaker 3: testing and investigations, the skeptical movement worldwide has yet to
4:23
Speaker 3: discover one person who can do any sort of psychic
4:27
Speaker 3: or paranormal act, ability, talk to the dead, glean information
4:33
Speaker 3: by handling objects or anything like that. It's simply, what
4:38
Speaker 3: appears to us, it's simply to be an entrenched myth
4:41
Speaker 3: in the general society.
4:43
Speaker 2: And one that the media, in your estimation, likes to
4:48
Speaker 2: pump up because it is a good story. Yes.
4:51
Speaker 3: So a large section of the media, their prime focus,
4:56
Speaker 3: motivation is to get bums on seats, is to get
4:59
Speaker 3: people to listen to the show, to watch the next program,
5:03
Speaker 3: to read the newspaper.
5:04
Speaker 1: Why?
5:05
Speaker 3: Because it's a business. And I'm trying not to stray
5:08
Speaker 3: into some sort of weird conspiracy theory. It's just a
5:10
Speaker 3: matter of fact. If television programs and newspapers and magazines
5:15
Speaker 3: don't sell stories their readers want, they're not going to
5:18
Speaker 3: make money. And it's not going to happen. The magazine
5:22
Speaker 3: will not sell advertising and people will lose their jobs.
5:26
Speaker 3: So if a TV show, like a chat show or
5:30
Speaker 3: a morning program on one of the networks, infomercial show,
5:35
Speaker 3: knows that if they have Mary the Psychic on every week,
5:40
Speaker 3: people will watch. They're not interested in having that all,
5:46
Speaker 3: for lack of a better word, debunked.
5:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a truth I think that Mark Chopper
5:52
Speaker 2: Reid understood very well. He peddled a bunch of easily
5:58
Speaker 2: disprovable myths and legends and straight out lies to the
6:01
Speaker 2: media who loved to run these stories. I did a
6:05
Speaker 2: book called The Real Chopper, which actually went into his
6:08
Speaker 2: background and showed that all the things he said were
6:10
Speaker 2: actually not true. And it was like a sort of
6:12
Speaker 2: fart against thunder where people, there's that dissonance there that
6:16
Speaker 2: there are stories that the media like to tell because
6:20
Speaker 2: they do create an audience. And so you don't want
6:23
Speaker 2: to knock down, you know, your cash cow, this myth.
6:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got it. You've got it.
6:30
Speaker 3: There are some programs that we'll try. In 1991, a
6:36
Speaker 3: very dear friend of mine, the late magician James Randi,
6:41
Speaker 3: made a series in the UK called James Randi Psychic Investigator,
6:45
Speaker 3: where he put all sorts of people claiming psychic powers
6:49
Speaker 3: to proper tests, as far as you can in a
6:52
Speaker 3: TV studio. And no spoilers, but they failed every test.
6:58
Speaker 3: Because when you put people who claim magical powers to proper, fair, independent,
7:04
Speaker 3: double-blind tests, they fail.
7:06
Speaker 1: Why?
7:07
Speaker 3: We suspect because they don't have the powers they claim.
7:11
Speaker 3: They're either lying through their teeth, which happens, or they're
7:14
Speaker 3: sincere but deluded.
7:16
Speaker 1: But that show ran.
7:18
Speaker 3: For one series, I think. And it was good from
7:21
Speaker 3: a sceptical point of view, but I could see why
7:23
Speaker 3: a network wouldn't be interested in running another show like that.
7:28
Speaker 3: A large section of their audience would be disappointed.
7:31
Speaker 2: You kind of spoil the party, you sceptics, really, don't you?
7:34
Speaker 2: Because people want hope, you know, and I've been covering.
7:39
Speaker 2: I've been covering missing persons cases and murders for 25 years,
7:42
Speaker 2: and even I hope for something.
7:44
Speaker 1: Magical, mystical, that can provide an answer. Find the body.
7:49
Speaker 1: Find the killer.
7:50
Speaker 3: Well, this is why these psychic detectives are preying on
7:54
Speaker 3: those natural, earnest desires and hopes of people, and they
7:58
Speaker 3: do it to make a buck or make notoriety, or
8:00
Speaker 3: sometimes they're sincerely deluded.
8:03
Speaker 1: Now, it's great to want hope.
8:05
Speaker 4: And want a good outcome, But if that results in
8:11
Speaker 4: police being taken away from what really could solve the crime,
8:17
Speaker 4: then it shouldn't be.
8:18
Speaker 3: You shouldn't say to somebody, look, this isn't going to work,
8:21
Speaker 3: but it'll give you lots of hope. No, we have
8:24
Speaker 3: to face up to the reality of the situation. What
8:28
Speaker 3: solves crimes is hard, patient, prolonged police investigation. That's what
8:37
Speaker 3: mostly solves crimes. And year after year, because of scientific
8:42
Speaker 3: advancements in DNA and so forth, more and more and
8:45
Speaker 3: more and more cold cases are being solved. People who
8:49
Speaker 3: killed people 20, 30, 40 years ago are being brought
8:52
Speaker 3: to justice.
8:53
Speaker 1: Why?
8:53
Speaker 3: Not because some spirit guided some psychic to the mystical answer.
8:58
Speaker 1: It's because.
8:59
Speaker 3: science has shown us how we can map the the
9:03
Speaker 3: dna for example and get evidence where we didn't think
9:06
Speaker 3: evidence could exist before so if people want real hope
9:10
Speaker 3: then they should be focusing on what really does bring
9:12
Speaker 3: in the results i.
9:14
Speaker 2: Really think so and i like to say that in
9:16
Speaker 2: the next decade or two there will be no secrets
9:19
Speaker 2: because of dna and that's the real magic if you
9:22
Speaker 2: like and it it is it's taking things that people
9:24
Speaker 2: thought were insoluble and solving them so but at the
9:28
Speaker 2: same time you know i'm In all things, I like
9:30
Speaker 2: to keep an open mind. And I'm reminded of the
9:33
Speaker 2: quote from Hamlet, where after speaking with the.
9:36
Speaker 1: Ghost of his dead father, he says to his friend.
9:39
Speaker 2: Horatio, there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
9:42
Speaker 2: than I dreamt of in your philosophy. And I wonder,
9:46
Speaker 2: do you, is that still that little scintilla of hope
9:49
Speaker 2: that psychics can do something? And are you looking for
9:53
Speaker 2: that or have you closed your mind off to it?
9:55
Speaker 1: No, no, no.
9:56
Speaker 3: Science is far more open-minded than the psychic believers. The
9:59
Speaker 3: people who believe in psychic powers and all these things,
10:03
Speaker 3: they're down the rabbit hole. and it's almost impossible to
10:07
Speaker 3: get them to come out again. No amount of evidence
10:10
Speaker 3: to the contrary will ever change their mind. So if
10:12
Speaker 3: you're talking about closed-minded people, the believers are the most
10:17
Speaker 3: closed-minded people we've come across. It's not that I hope
10:22
Speaker 3: that psychics will change. be real one day, it doesn't matter.
10:27
Speaker 3: What I hope doesn't matter. Either they will be real
10:29
Speaker 3: one day or they won't. So far, the evidence is crummy.
10:33
Speaker 3: The evidence presented has not given us any confidence that
10:39
Speaker 3: one day, somehow magically, psychics will turn out to be real.
10:43
Speaker 3: But for science to work, you leave the door open.
10:48
Speaker 3: And indeed, we at Australian Skeptics are quite willing to
10:51
Speaker 3: entertain any paranormal or supernatural claim that comes along. So
10:57
Speaker 3: much so that we have a prize of $ 100, 000 to
11:03
Speaker 3: the first person who can perform any psychic or supernatural act.
11:08
Speaker 3: claim power. They can divine for water. They can talk
11:10
Speaker 3: to the dead. They can solve the case for police,
11:13
Speaker 3: whatever the case may be. That's how open-minded we are.
11:16
Speaker 3: Not only will we refuse to rule it out completely,
11:21
Speaker 3: we encourage it to be found.
11:24
Speaker 1: We keep looking. Good. And you're putting your money where
11:27
Speaker 1: your mouth is, and I think you can't do more
11:29
Speaker 1: than that.
11:30
Speaker 2: And where this discussion began for me was when I
11:35
Speaker 2: did a little post on Facebook to my followers saying
11:39
Speaker 2: that I'd done this survey and I'd not found anybody
11:42
Speaker 2: that had solved the case through psychic powers. And I
11:46
Speaker 2: pointed to the case of Dolly Adamson, who claimed to
11:51
Speaker 2: have been speaking to cop killer Desi Freeman from the
11:55
Speaker 2: other side, and that he was telling her how he died.
11:59
Speaker 1: And of course, that was happening while he was still alive.
12:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, how about that? Now, Dolly's an interesting case. I mean,
12:09
Speaker 3: if you look at the list of people who she
12:12
Speaker 3: claims she's been in touch with, it's like a who's
12:15
Speaker 3: who going back centuries of every famous dead person you
12:18
Speaker 3: could ever imagine, including Ned Kelly. So that would be
12:22
Speaker 3: an interesting conversation. You know, it's farcical. And okay, people
12:29
Speaker 3: can believe that if they want, and they can get
12:31
Speaker 3: entertainment out of it. But What Dolly does is she
12:34
Speaker 3: claims that she hears from dead children, like the Beaumont children,
12:38
Speaker 3: who we are almost 100% certain must have died by now.
12:43
Speaker 3: They probably died 60 years ago. So that's just grim.
12:47
Speaker 3: That's just, you know, what is she playing at? Talking
12:50
Speaker 3: to the probably dead children.
12:53
Speaker 1: But it gets worse.
12:54
Speaker 3: Then she'll say that, oh, she's also been in touch
12:57
Speaker 3: with their killer's And you think, what planet are these
13:02
Speaker 3: people on that they think this is appropriate entertainment or
13:07
Speaker 3: that they can make these claims and just get away
13:10
Speaker 3: scot-free without some sort of scrutiny or investigation?
13:14
Speaker 2: It's just bizarre. And just give me a bit more
13:17
Speaker 2: background of how she operates.
13:19
Speaker 3: So she uses a device called a spirit box. Now,
13:25
Speaker 3: this gets pretty strange. So a spirit box is a
13:29
Speaker 3: modified radio receiver. So, you know, in the car or
13:33
Speaker 3: maybe you have a radio at home where if you
13:36
Speaker 3: want to scan all the frequencies to find out where
13:39
Speaker 3: all the channels are, you press a button and it
13:42
Speaker 3: goes each because it's finding all the the AM frequencies,
13:49
Speaker 3: for example, fine. And it catalogs them and says, here
13:52
Speaker 3: we are. We've got this channel.
13:53
Speaker 1: We've got this channel.
13:54
Speaker 3: A spirit box is designed never to lock on to
13:59
Speaker 3: any frequency. It just keeps repeating a scan, a scan,
14:03
Speaker 3: a scan. So it's always going, and every now and then,
14:10
Speaker 3: bits of words come through from radio announcers, bits of music,
14:13
Speaker 3: bits of words. They claim that those bits of words
14:18
Speaker 3: that are coming through the airwaves are actually communications from ghosts.
14:24
Speaker 1: From dead people okay and.
14:27
Speaker 3: It's a thing that psychologists will tell you is called
14:31
Speaker 3: audio pareidolia now pareidolia is the brain's ability to make
14:37
Speaker 3: sense out of randomness and the best explanation is let's
14:42
Speaker 3: talk about shakespeare again me thinks it is like a
14:44
Speaker 3: weasel when one of the characters looks up at the
14:47
Speaker 3: clouds and sees the clouds and says me thinks it
14:50
Speaker 3: is like a weasel Because we've.
14:52
Speaker 1: All done it.
14:53
Speaker 3: We've all seen a cloud and said, oh, look at
14:55
Speaker 3: that cloud. Doesn't it look like a dog or a
14:58
Speaker 3: snake or something like that?
15:00
Speaker 1: That's pareidolia.
15:01
Speaker 3: That's the brain's amazing ability to look for patterns, even
15:06
Speaker 3: when there are, you know, it's not really there. Audio
15:10
Speaker 3: pareidolia is the same thing, except for through your ears.
15:13
Speaker 3: You'll hear something and your brain will try desperately to
15:16
Speaker 3: make sense of it. That's one part of it. The
15:19
Speaker 3: second part is, called priming. If you've been primed to
15:25
Speaker 3: hear something and you hear random noises and random bits
15:27
Speaker 3: of words, your brain will often put it all together
15:32
Speaker 3: and you will hear the word you're looking out for
15:35
Speaker 3: or a word that you could be looking out for.
15:38
Speaker 3: The best example of that is there's a wonderful comedy
15:42
Speaker 3: routine called misheard lyrics, where a comedian will say, Now,
15:48
Speaker 3: listen for this. They're singing these words, which aren't the
15:51
Speaker 3: words they're singing, which primes the audience. They play the
15:54
Speaker 3: clip from the rock and roll song or whatever it is.
15:58
Speaker 3: And suddenly that's what you hear. And everyone burst out
16:01
Speaker 3: laughing because that's crazy. No, that's just a psychological trick.
16:07
Speaker 3: So Dolly's sitting there and she's done lots of videos.
16:10
Speaker 3: Her assistant is sort of off to the side, listening
16:14
Speaker 3: to these sounds on the radio. and just saying pronouncements
16:19
Speaker 3: every now and then.
16:20
Speaker 1: It's laughable. I mean, I'm in the wrong business, you know?
16:26
Speaker 1: So am I. I think you've called it a broken radio,
16:29
Speaker 1: this spirit box.
16:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like if you've got a radio and it's
16:33
Speaker 3: broken so it never settles on a frequency. It just
16:36
Speaker 3: continually scans and scans. But they're programmed, they're made to
16:40
Speaker 3: do that. And they're sold to gullible people who think
16:43
Speaker 3: they're spirits talking through the radio networks.
16:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you gave Dolly Adamson your Bent Spoon Award
16:52
Speaker 2: in 2026.
16:52
Speaker 1: That's right. How was the competition?
16:54
Speaker 3: Oh, it was an interesting competition. Normally every year there's
16:59
Speaker 3: the standard gaggle of people who have acts where they
17:04
Speaker 3: go around the clubs talking to the dead.
17:07
Speaker 1: They're on the stage. I'm getting an M initial. Who
17:10
Speaker 1: was it?
17:10
Speaker 3: Who had cancer? Why am I feeling tight in the chest?
17:13
Speaker 3: I'm getting a mother figure, that sort of thing. Now,
17:16
Speaker 3: this is an old routine that's been going on for
17:18
Speaker 3: decades and decades. So, you know, unless someone really makes
17:22
Speaker 3: a remarkable claim in that respect, we just, it's just,
17:27
Speaker 3: they're a dime a dozen.
17:28
Speaker 1: So we had a few of those.
17:29
Speaker 3: And we had one woman who operates out of Perth
17:32
Speaker 3: using a magic box machine. from Russia, which the claim
17:37
Speaker 3: is this box, when it's hooked up to you, can
17:40
Speaker 3: diagnose your problems down to the level of DNA and
17:44
Speaker 3: zap your viruses and things like that, which is an
17:47
Speaker 3: outrageous claim because it's making false medical claims. And that's serious.
17:53
Speaker 3: And we hope the authorities can take proper action. You
17:55
Speaker 3: can't go around making those sort of claims in our society.
17:59
Speaker 3: There are laws And rightly so.
18:02
Speaker 1: It's one thing.
18:03
Speaker 2: To provide a form of entertainment to people with this
18:08
Speaker 2: so-called powers. But when you look at the situation with
18:11
Speaker 2: Desi Freeman, that he murdered two police officers, Neil Thompson
18:15
Speaker 2: and Vadim Devat Hotart, and you wonder the impact on
18:20
Speaker 2: their loved ones and their police colleagues when you've got
18:23
Speaker 2: someone who's jumping up in the media and having a conversation,
18:27
Speaker 2: a sympathetic conversation even.
18:30
Speaker 1: With the killer. Yeah. Well, that's the routine. I mean,
18:35
Speaker 1: it's a business.
18:36
Speaker 3: We get back to why the magazines and TV programs
18:39
Speaker 3: give people who claim psychic power is such a favorable thing.
18:43
Speaker 3: run it's because it's a business why does dolly adamson
18:47
Speaker 3: make out like she's talking to dead people it's a
18:50
Speaker 3: business that's that's what she does for an income um.
18:54
Speaker 2: Right let's be clear here i mean there's evidence that
18:56
Speaker 2: she does derive an income from this oh yeah yeah
18:58
Speaker 2: allegations that.
18:59
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah yeah she yeah she she charges for
19:02
Speaker 3: for psychic service a lot of people charge for psychic
19:06
Speaker 3: service if you go to a the rsl club and
19:09
Speaker 3: see joe the psychic come along It's not free. You
19:12
Speaker 3: have to buy a ticket. Now, you can argue, well,
19:15
Speaker 3: where's the border? Okay, is that just entertainment? You know,
19:19
Speaker 3: is it just a lot of fun? Well, if you
19:22
Speaker 3: ask the audience, no, they're going there because they really
19:25
Speaker 3: think that Joe the psychic is going to talk to
19:29
Speaker 3: their dead grandmother or something like that.
19:32
Speaker 1: And speaking of false hope, you mentioned the case of
19:36
Speaker 1: the Beaumont kids, Jane, Anna and Grant. Yes. There was
19:40
Speaker 1: a psychic involved there as well.
19:41
Speaker 2: It's quite a good example of where things can go wrong.
19:45
Speaker 3: Well, it's a great example of a wild goose chase.
19:50
Speaker 3: So the children died in January 1990. Well, when I
19:56
Speaker 3: say died, they disappeared. Honestly, nobody knows what happened, but
20:01
Speaker 3: in all probability, they probably met a sad end. And
20:07
Speaker 3: during the course of the year, of course, Adelaide was
20:09
Speaker 3: turned upside down. This was huge news and a terrible thing.
20:13
Speaker 1: Parts of the The inlet were drained. Police searches everywhere.
20:19
Speaker 3: And later that year, Concerned Citizens, it has sponsored the
20:24
Speaker 3: trip to Australia from a Dutch psychic who had gained
20:27
Speaker 3: notoriety from solving crimes and things like that. One Gerard Cossette.
20:32
Speaker 3: He came out and spent two or three days in
20:36
Speaker 3: Adelaide later that year, November, December, something like that. And
20:40
Speaker 3: the media went bonkers. It was front page news. It
20:43
Speaker 3: was TV news. It was all over the Adelaide advertiser.
20:47
Speaker 3: He had hordes of press following him around when he
20:50
Speaker 3: was driving around the city, you know, getting premonitions and
20:54
Speaker 3: everything like that. A complete and utter farce, a complete
20:59
Speaker 3: and utter waste of time. He gave nothing of any
21:02
Speaker 3: consequence to solving the case whatsoever. But so much do
21:08
Speaker 3: people want to believe that he was still real, that
21:12
Speaker 3: decades later they were still organizing to excavate places where
21:17
Speaker 3: this psychic said the children were buried. That's how strong
21:21
Speaker 3: the belief is. And again, I get back to who's open-minded.
21:26
Speaker 3: The believers, it doesn't matter. It simply does not matter.
21:30
Speaker 3: They're so far down the rabbit hole and they believe
21:33
Speaker 3: so strongly in this. It doesn't matter what I say.
21:36
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter what the police says. So from my
21:40
Speaker 3: point of view and reading the newspaper reports and everything,
21:44
Speaker 3: every minute that the police were distracted from proper investigations
21:51
Speaker 3: is an outrage. And this happens again and again to
21:55
Speaker 3: this day. Psychics will pester the police.
21:59
Speaker 1: They'll usually.
22:02
Speaker 1: And we can be charitable.
22:03
Speaker 3: And say a lot of people out there think they've
22:05
Speaker 3: got mystical, magical powers and they think they're getting messages
22:08
Speaker 3: from the dead.
22:09
Speaker 1: And out of.
22:10
Speaker 3: The goodness of their heart, they'll approach the police or
22:13
Speaker 3: they'll send the police reams of information.
22:16
Speaker 1: Now, that's one thing.
22:18
Speaker 3: But then again, there are the professional psychics out there
22:21
Speaker 3: who it's a living. And if they claim that they
22:24
Speaker 3: help police and that's part of their shtick, then.
22:30
Speaker 1: That's what they do.
22:31
Speaker 3: And they get away with it, again, because even though
22:34
Speaker 3: I might come along and put the case that it's
22:37
Speaker 3: not true, the media, by and large, will side with
22:41
Speaker 3: what sells the soap powder, which is psychics are real.
22:45
Speaker 3: Or at least they give the impression that they're, oh,
22:49
Speaker 3: we're just open-minded. Let's give them a fair go. Well,
22:54
Speaker 3: when's enough enough? You know, 50 years, 60 years, 100 years.
22:58
Speaker 3: I've got newspaper reports going back to the 1930s about psychic,
23:03
Speaker 3: so-called psychic detectives. And again, if they're real, we've got
23:07
Speaker 3: a large cash prize for them just waiting.
23:11
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to start researching this because I wouldn't
23:15
Speaker 2: mind 100k.
23:15
Speaker 1: But you make the point about police resources and time. Yeah.
23:19
Speaker 1: I've looked at the Beaumonts in detail.
23:21
Speaker 2: And what you had there was They didn't have enough
23:24
Speaker 2: police at Glenelg Police Station to take all the evidence
23:27
Speaker 2: on that. There was a line of people wanting to
23:28
Speaker 2: give evidence and they didn't get to speak to those people.
23:31
Speaker 2: So the idea that they would spend time with the
23:34
Speaker 2: psychic later when they hadn't even got the basic material,
23:38
Speaker 2: it needs to be.
23:39
Speaker 1: In fact, I think that should be part of any
23:41
Speaker 1: coronial inquest.
23:42
Speaker 2: Let's look at how that investigation was carried out and
23:45
Speaker 2: were they giving airtime to a quack who was.
23:49
Speaker 1: And you can imagine the anguish for Jim and Nancy Beaumont.
23:53
Speaker 2: When they're being told their kids had died in an accident,
24:00
Speaker 2: that they were digging in the sand and they'd been.
24:02
Speaker 1: Caved in and that's where they were.
24:05
Speaker 2: In fact, I mean, there's been several, I mean, it's
24:08
Speaker 2: much more plausible that they were taken by an evil
24:12
Speaker 2: pedophile who murdered them, who's not been brought to justice.
24:16
Speaker 3: That's a very plausible situation.
24:18
Speaker 1: We don't know. Of course, we don't know. But what
24:21
Speaker 1: we do know, without.
24:23
Speaker 3: A shadow of a doubt, is that Gerard Cossette, the
24:26
Speaker 3: Dutch psychic, was of absolutely no help to the investigation. Now,
24:31
Speaker 3: you could be very charitable and argue that he at
24:35
Speaker 3: least gave people hope. Well, yeah, but it didn't help.
24:39
Speaker 3: It doesn't help the case. It doesn't help the children.
24:41
Speaker 3: It doesn't help, yeah.
24:43
Speaker 1: And police are duty-bound to follow up everything.
24:47
Speaker 2: And one detective who I included in my survey said,
24:50
Speaker 2: He did speak to psychics, particularly in homicides, because there's
24:54
Speaker 2: always that tiny possibility that the psychic is in fact
24:58
Speaker 2: the killer who's now wanting to get their jollies from
25:01
Speaker 2: being involved in the investigation, a bit like an amateur
25:03
Speaker 2: firefighter who's also an arsonist.
25:06
Speaker 1: Yes.
25:07
Speaker 3: You may know better than I, I don't recall any
25:09
Speaker 3: cases where that has turned out to be the reality.
25:14
Speaker 3: I don't recall any cases where somebody has got their
25:19
Speaker 3: thrills out of pretending to be a psychic and giving
25:22
Speaker 3: information to police. But that's an interesting angle.
25:28
Speaker 2: But they do follow them up, and I think that's
25:29
Speaker 2: quite reasonable, but it does take police resources and so forth. Now,
25:32
Speaker 2: when I was getting played by my Facebook followers who
25:36
Speaker 2: believe in it, an interesting thing, actually, I should make
25:38
Speaker 2: this point, is that at a time when we believe
25:42
Speaker 2: less in God and formal religion, these sorts of alternative
25:45
Speaker 2: spiritual principles and beliefs are really gaining more currency.
25:51
Speaker 1: Yes and no, not overwhelmingly. It comes and goes.
25:55
Speaker 3: You know, fads for various psychic things come and go.
25:59
Speaker 3: The people who claim to talk to the dead from stage,
26:02
Speaker 3: they're just a constant.
26:03
Speaker 1: They're always around.
26:05
Speaker 3: The individuals come and go, but the idea, the claim,
26:08
Speaker 3: the routines are never green. Astrology comes and goes. We
26:13
Speaker 3: haven't seen any evidence that, you know, thousands of more
26:16
Speaker 3: people are jumping on some sort of spiritual bandwagon. And indeed,
26:19
Speaker 3: you know, the seance era from after the first world war,
26:24
Speaker 3: that was a big peak in that sort of thing.
26:28
Speaker 3: And then, you know, early in this century, it was
26:31
Speaker 3: the TV psychics doing their half hour specials in front
26:35
Speaker 3: of a studio audience.
26:36
Speaker 1: And that, that gained interest.
26:38
Speaker 3: So these, these things come and go, but I sort
26:41
Speaker 3: of feel like I want to make the point right
26:44
Speaker 3: at the at the beginning, which I made, these things
26:48
Speaker 3: come and go, but what goes and goes and goes
26:50
Speaker 3: and gets better and better, the police solving crimes using
26:55
Speaker 3: tried and true police investigation.
26:58
Speaker 1: Exactly, and evolving still. Now, the point I was going
27:00
Speaker 1: to make about.
27:03
Speaker 2: The criticism of my Facebook followers on this point was
27:06
Speaker 2: that there are TV shows where the psychics have been
27:10
Speaker 2: demonstrated to solve crimes. There's one called Sensing Murder. which
27:14
Speaker 2: I was pointing to. I haven't looked at it yet.
27:16
Speaker 1: I will. And you've looked at this show and its claims.
27:20
Speaker 1: Is there anything in them? No.
27:24
Speaker 3: Let's remember a commercial TV network is a commercial TV network.
27:30
Speaker 3: If they think, if the producers think this is a
27:32
Speaker 3: good story that people will watch... and hence buy that
27:36
Speaker 3: soap powders, that's the show they're going to make. It
27:42
Speaker 3: was 20 years ago. In fact, I remember writing to
27:46
Speaker 3: Channel 10, I think it was at the time, or 7,
27:49
Speaker 3: who ran the program, pointing out that this is not
27:53
Speaker 3: such a great idea. You're giving people false hope and
27:56
Speaker 3: everything like that.
27:57
Speaker 1: It ran a few.
27:59
Speaker 3: Series in Australia, then ended up in New Zealand. And
28:02
Speaker 3: of course, the thing about having a show in New
28:04
Speaker 3: Zealand about murders is there's not that many murders in
28:07
Speaker 3: New Zealand. You know, good on them. There's simply not.
28:11
Speaker 3: So it's not a huge leap to think that people
28:17
Speaker 3: could have a reasonable working knowledge of most murders in
28:22
Speaker 3: New Zealand over the past 20 or 30 years, even
28:25
Speaker 3: if it's just the basics, because there's not that many
28:27
Speaker 3: of them. But again, the show is not meant to
28:33
Speaker 3: showcase how psychics solve crimes it is meant to have
28:36
Speaker 3: people watch the show the outcome is not that important
28:39
Speaker 3: you know because they haven't solved the crimes so.
28:44
Speaker 1: I i probably.
28:46
Speaker 5: Don't need to watch that show then uh no it's
28:49
Speaker 5: worth watching to see how a show is edited and
28:51
Speaker 5: how they tell the story you know because we're all
28:54
Speaker 5: storytelling animals we like to hear and see stories and
28:58
Speaker 5: and You add.
28:59
Speaker 3: To that intrigue and crime and a bit of hope
29:02
Speaker 3: and a bit of mystery, and no wonder there's a
29:05
Speaker 3: TV show was made.
29:07
Speaker 1: There's a lot of good ingredients there.
29:10
Speaker 2: Yes, I guess the high priest of this sort of entertainment,
29:14
Speaker 2: if you like, is John Edward.
29:17
Speaker 1: Yes.
29:17
Speaker 2: His show Crossing Over, which has also been very popular
29:20
Speaker 2: amongst the believers. Yes.
29:23
Speaker 1: Give us the background of that one, of Edward. How
29:25
Speaker 1: believable is he?
29:26
Speaker 3: He's one of the stock standard stage routine talking to
29:30
Speaker 3: the dead. I've not seen his show live.
29:35
Speaker 1: I have not been in the audience to see his show.
29:37
Speaker 1: I did see him.
29:37
Speaker 3: I was in the audience for a taping of Morning
29:41
Speaker 3: Chat show about 20 years ago when he was here.
29:43
Speaker 1: I mean, but we.
29:45
Speaker 3: had our colleagues in the United States go to his
29:49
Speaker 3: show and see the tapings and see how much it's
29:51
Speaker 3: edited down. The same stock standard cold reading is in place. Again, basically,
29:58
Speaker 3: this is I'm getting an M initial. Who was it
30:00
Speaker 3: who died of cancer? Your sister, she did want to
30:04
Speaker 3: tell you she loved you. Were you there when she died?
30:06
Speaker 3: This sort of thing. And you see this in all
30:09
Speaker 3: the routines. But he had a relatively short-lived show, Crossing
30:14
Speaker 3: Over with John Edward, but it became very popular. And
30:17
Speaker 3: he's been trading off that ever since. So he comes
30:21
Speaker 3: to Australia twice a year. And he has done for decades.
30:24
Speaker 3: He comes in the middle of the year to do
30:26
Speaker 3: a few shows and get publicity and at the end
30:28
Speaker 3: of the year to do even more shows. And it
30:31
Speaker 3: doesn't matter what we say. I was on a current
30:33
Speaker 3: affair 20 years ago talking about this. It doesn't matter
30:38
Speaker 3: what the skeptics say.
30:40
Speaker 1: It doesn't.
30:41
Speaker 3: I can't, you know, my frustration because people will often
30:47
Speaker 3: say to us or ring us up or write to
30:49
Speaker 3: us or something and say, why don't you skeptics do
30:52
Speaker 3: something about this? As if we're going to ride in
30:57
Speaker 3: on a horse with a lance and say, aha, we've
30:59
Speaker 3: got you.
31:00
Speaker 1: We do what we can. Yes.
31:03
Speaker 2: Is it true to say that Australians are particularly susceptible
31:07
Speaker 2: to this? I believe Uri Geller, for instance, who was
31:09
Speaker 2: the beginning of the whole bent spoon kind of thing,
31:12
Speaker 2: he was particularly big in Australia.
31:14
Speaker 1: And I think John Edward is as well.
31:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:16
Speaker 1: Yeah.
31:17
Speaker 3: Well, yes, but they're big all over the world. I mean,
31:20
Speaker 3: John Edward is big in Canada. Uri Geller traveled the
31:23
Speaker 3: world and fooled everybody around the world. Doesn't matter what
31:27
Speaker 3: the country was.
31:28
Speaker 1: It was interesting. It was novel.
31:30
Speaker 3: It was strange. When you don't know how magic trick works,
31:33
Speaker 3: it looks like real magic. So I don't think Australia
31:37
Speaker 3: is any more or less susceptible of this sort of
31:40
Speaker 3: thing than any other part of the world, really.
31:42
Speaker 1: Okay, so.
31:44
Speaker 2: The sceptics internationally are scouring the airwaves, the media, getting
31:49
Speaker 2: people to come forward. How many cases of people helping
31:54
Speaker 2: detectives through psychic powers do the sceptics get each year,
31:58
Speaker 2: and what's the process of investigating them?
32:00
Speaker 3: Well, they're sort of lost a little bit in the
32:02
Speaker 3: wash of general investigations. We hear about them occasionally. As
32:06
Speaker 3: I say, they come and go. It's hard to nail
32:09
Speaker 3: them down because they'll often run 1,000 miles, then be
32:12
Speaker 3: tested by sceptics. Because if they're, for the sake of argument,
32:18
Speaker 3: if Fred the psychic knows he's a charlatan and does routines,
32:23
Speaker 3: knowing their routines, they're not going to come within Cooey
32:27
Speaker 3: of us. Why would they? It's that why would they
32:30
Speaker 3: have us spoil the routine? The ones who do come
32:34
Speaker 3: to us are the ones who honestly think they have
32:39
Speaker 3: special magical powers. And they're the ones who will come
32:42
Speaker 3: occasionally and to us and say, listen, I've heard you've
32:47
Speaker 3: got $ 100, 000. I'm psychic. I have special powers. I'd like
32:51
Speaker 3: to apply for your money. And out of all the
32:54
Speaker 3: ones who do that, we test. If we're lucky, we'll
32:57
Speaker 3: test a couple a year, if we're lucky, because people
33:01
Speaker 3: honestly cannot express to us clearly and succinctly what they
33:06
Speaker 3: can do. They just think they have magical powers and
33:09
Speaker 3: And when we said, well, OK, that's great. You know,
33:11
Speaker 3: we're open minded. If you have a magical power, we'll
33:14
Speaker 3: give you lots of money. How can we go about
33:16
Speaker 3: to how can you go about to show us?
33:19
Speaker 1: And they falter.
33:20
Speaker 3: They never get to the point where they can actually
33:22
Speaker 3: come to us and show us what they can do.
33:24
Speaker 1: It's very frustrating.
33:26
Speaker 3: But, you know, there's just been a list of people
33:28
Speaker 3: over the years who claim to help police, which can
33:31
Speaker 3: mean which can mean if I woke up tomorrow morning
33:36
Speaker 3: and i had an from a dream and i dreamt
33:39
Speaker 3: something i thought oh i better i'll write this down
33:41
Speaker 3: and send it to the police you know dear police
33:44
Speaker 3: i had this weird dream where this happened lick the
33:47
Speaker 3: envelope post it off the next day i could say
33:49
Speaker 3: well i've worked on that case i've helped the police
33:51
Speaker 3: with that case and they honestly think they have you know.
33:55
Speaker 2: And that's often claimed on websites and media stories.
34:00
Speaker 1: And they build up this background.
34:01
Speaker 2: Interesting thing though, when people are told these stories, even
34:05
Speaker 2: the most hardened skeptic, there's a visceral response.
34:09
Speaker 1: The hairs on the back of the neck go up.
34:11
Speaker 2: There's the, it connects with something in our psyche that
34:16
Speaker 2: we want to believe that we want to believe there's
34:18
Speaker 2: something beyond the realm of our mundane existence.
34:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. And that, That's great.
34:25
Speaker 3: I mean, that's being human. It sort of clouds the issue,
34:28
Speaker 3: clouds your thinking a little bit. You have to try
34:30
Speaker 3: and be, you have to try to be stern about this,
34:35
Speaker 3: but fair. You know, you can't be closed-minded because then
34:39
Speaker 3: you might miss that great opportunity. But as we say,
34:42
Speaker 3: you can't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
34:45
Speaker 3: You know, that's just counterproductive. And that's sadly what happens
34:49
Speaker 3: to most people who believe in psychic. And coupled with
34:52
Speaker 3: that is they don't have the education. They don't know
34:55
Speaker 3: the tricks that we know, the psychological interplay. And in
35:00
Speaker 3: some cases, sadly, and these days it's not too difficult,
35:03
Speaker 3: is to research people before the show. If you know
35:06
Speaker 3: that Fred Bloggs is coming to the show, you can
35:08
Speaker 3: often find lots of information on Facebook about Fred Bloggs,
35:11
Speaker 3: even if it's two or three photographs. And, you know, Fred, Fred,
35:15
Speaker 3: why am I hearing a little dog? It's a black
35:19
Speaker 3: and white dog. What does that mean to you? How
35:22
Speaker 3: did you know about the black and white dog? You know,
35:25
Speaker 3: this is common. It's part of the routine.
35:28
Speaker 2: Okay, well, the challenge is well set, $ 100, 000 for an instance.
35:33
Speaker 1: That can be proven. The money is there. The money
35:35
Speaker 1: is there.
35:37
Speaker 2: I'll go looking, and if I can pick up that cash,
35:39
Speaker 2: I will, but I'll also issue the challenge to the audience.
35:43
Speaker 1: And I want to thank you today for sharing your experiences.
35:47
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to give up, but I am
35:50
Speaker 2: duly advised about the rarity of this situation.
35:54
Speaker 1: Wow. Rare as hen's teeth at the moment. Thank you
36:00
Speaker 1: for your time. Okay.
36:03
Speaker 2: That's Richard Saunders, Challenge Coordinator for Australian Skeptics and an Investigator.
36:07
Speaker 1: And you know what, folks? My mind is not closed
36:09
Speaker 1: to this.
36:11
Speaker 2: If you can come forward and show me the psychic
36:13
Speaker 2: has helped a family, police or whoever, solve a crime,
36:18
Speaker 2: I'll be more than willing to investigate it and direct
36:21
Speaker 2: you to the skeptics so you can pick up your money.
36:23
Speaker 2: And that's not a joke because these families want answers.
36:27
Speaker 2: They really do. But unfortunately, I've never seen it. I
36:30
Speaker 2: think you've heard what Richard just said then. No one
36:32
Speaker 2: else has seen it either. So don't be too hard
36:34
Speaker 2: on me because I want to validate your claims. So
36:37
Speaker 2: please get in touch. AdamShandWriter at gmail.com.
36:41
Speaker 1: Everything else... It can be directed to Crimestoppers, 1-800-333-000.
36:45
Speaker 2: You can also look me up on Facebook here and
36:48
Speaker 2: follow and subscribe and so forth. But let's not be
36:51
Speaker 2: in the business of false hope. Let's understand that there
36:56
Speaker 2: might be entertaining thoughts and programs and so forth, but
37:00
Speaker 2: they're real people and they suffer the loss of their
37:04
Speaker 2: loved ones every day for decades. And every time new
37:09
Speaker 2: hope comes up, they ride that rollercoaster. You've got to
37:12
Speaker 2: bear that in mind. This has been Adam Shan for
37:14
Speaker 2: Real Crime.
37:14
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37:23
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37:25
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37:29
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