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How to Make Positive and Healthy Changes with Sandeep Aujla · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we conscious conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Roxanne Durgesh of the authentic connection movement.
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  Thanks for joining us again this week.
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  To, today I have a special colleague Sandeep Aldra, and she's, organizational psychology
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  practitioner.
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  Hi, Sandeep.
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  How are you today?
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  I'm well.
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  Thank you, Roxanne.
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  Thank you for inviting me.
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  Thanks for being here.
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  So I'm gonna tell you a little bit about her background, and we're gonna kind of talk a lot
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  about change strategy today.
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  She serves as an international HR and trained strategist, and she's a keynote speaker and a
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  trainer.
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  She's the founder and CEO of multilevel Leadership Consulting Inc.
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  An organization that parts with partners with leaders who wanna make change easy for people
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  across all levels of the organization.
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  She has been in progressive, leadership positions for the past 17 years in HR OD or
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  organizational development, consulting, and change management, both in the public and
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  private sector organizations.
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  She teaches undergrad, grad, and executive education courses in business And Psychology at
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  various universities across Ontario.
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  So we have a we have a couple of things in common there.
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  Psychology.
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  But I've also taught, university and grad school, but I haven't done that for quite a
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  while.
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  Well, do you miss this?
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  You know what?
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  I I could say that some parts of it I miss and some parts I don't, you know, sometimes the
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  structure, the 15 weeks or stuff like that, it's sometimes nice to be able to go in, like,
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  when you, you know, train for a half day full day in your fit.
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  So I think there's there's pros and cons for you.
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  What about you?
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  What do what do you prefer doing just a one off, or do you like teaching, at the academic
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  level?
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  I do love teaching at the academic level.
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  It's just working with students, their fresh ideas, And they're very critical observers of
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  asking the basic questions that we've almost kind of taken for granted.
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  So I love that perspective.
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  And usually I don't teach more than 1 course a year.
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  Actually, that's not true.
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  It's 1 semester.
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  Sometimes it's about 3 maximum per year.
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  Helps.
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  Not too bad in terms of work balance.
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  So do you teach in trauma, or do you have to travel when you teach?
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  Usually, I travel.
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  Most of the time I'm teaching out West.
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  So Wilfred L'Oreal, Guilf, Brock, Ryerson, and oh, the group.
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  Okay.
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  Nice.
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  Nice.
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  Nice.
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  So today, obviously, you know, changes Obviously, we knew we know that's the
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  constants.
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  Right?
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  I think of, when I was consulting, you know, I think I shared this to you almost like at any
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  given point across my portfolio as a an executive consultant in health and wellness,
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  about 78 to 85% of my portfolio was in flux.
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  So people are obviously, it happens, but, you know, unless it happens to us, we kind of
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  think, oh, yeah.
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  Change is happening, but how often is it happening?
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  And what I realized is that really, you know, change became the norm that was happening out
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  there, across industry.
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  So now you being, obviously a subject matter expert on change.
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  How often are things staying constant in organization to date?
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  Well, I actually, because it's my work, I get invited when changes really peak or for my
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  really proactive clients when they're just getting started on planning, because that's
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  where I can add the greatest value.
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  The 4 change has started or been introduced with station.
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  But I would say changes happening all the time.
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  Even if things are constant, there are things you're doing to make sure that that status quo
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  is maintained.
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  But I don't know a single organization that, that is investing effort into maintaining
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  stapsco.
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  People wanna be better.
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  Organizations want to have higher performance, more productivity, higher customer
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  satisfaction, no matter how you parse more wellness, for their employees and more
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  authenticity in their leaders.
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  No matter what goal you have, you gotta do something to create that change.
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  And it can be at a small scale or a large scale.
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  So the effort and the systematic approach that that you use for that change can make all the
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  difference in making sure that there's ease and acceptance in the new way of how you want the
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  organization to work.
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  So I would say that Be it a small company to a, you know, multinational, most people kind of
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  recognize when they're going through changes.
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  Some sick things they should be doing.
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  Would you say that most people are pretty strategic like you're saying?
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  Like, let's say if someone's expanding or they're downsizing, rightsizing, they're
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  talking strategy prior to that.
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  So they're calling you in, but I know when I worked as an executive, oftentimes, that it was
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  on the other end of it.
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  Right.
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  So, like, we're, you know, we're shutting down three locations.
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  We're cutting this level.
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  And by the way, we need, services in that day within 24 to 72 hours to talk about the impact,
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  right, like, to deal with the rightsizing, to tell people about the impact of, how it's gonna
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  affect them, you know, you know, physiologically, psychologically, emotionally.
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  You're not crazy.
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  You know, those types of things.
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  And, then we're kinda discuss what kind of things.
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  And, obviously, there's outsourcing and stuff that
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  goes through that.
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  So that's when kinda you're you're just dumping right into the eye of the store.
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  Yeah.
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  Right?
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  And I think Roxanne, that's still half thing all the time.
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  Two things that have, shifted for me, I primarily work with large clients.
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  I don't I don't think I have any small clients.
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  So with large organizations and significant projects that they're launching, there is a lot
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  of raised awareness now about the proactive planning piece and all the difference it can
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  make in getting people involved from the very beginning.
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  So gone are the days where I'm just gonna tell you what you need to do or, hey, we're
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  launching a new system and get on board Change starts the moment you make that announcement.
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  And I think I happen very blessed with the type of clients I work with who are very proactive
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  and thoughtful in that approach.
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  But I think it's also because their large organizations have matured in terms of learn
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  from some hard rough edges of trying to launch something, which is for a multinational
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  organization, you need that level of planning and strategizing.
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  Otherwise, you're not gonna be able to see.
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  You can wing it.
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  It's it's not that easy.
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  Having said that, once I'm working with a client, they're countless other changes I hear
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  about that nobody has put any thought to because one of the questions I often ask, is
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  this the only change which I I know the answer is no, but it's helping clients think through.
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  What are the other changes that I have and did you or will be introducing that either directly
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  align with what I'm about to introduce or conflicting with what I'm going to ask the
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  people to do.
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  And that is where my role comes in in helping them think through all the changes from an
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  employee's experience about When a VP is calling you in, he or she may have only, let's
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  say, 3 or 4 projects.
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  But when you think about across 5 or 6 VPs, an employee at the front line is going to end up
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  experiencing 15 changes, and that cumulative experience is not usually thought out.
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  And if you can get called at the very beginning, you can be much more proactive in
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  figuring out what that approach should be so that people can come on board and not feel
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  overwhelmed by the whole thing.
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  So really, a really macro aerial shot of what it's gonna look like.
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  Sixties, West Coast, like you said, you could have 5 to 7 VPs with multiple price go and then
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  the various levels with on within every kind of environment that they're in and then how that
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  translates to the frontward facing customer.
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  That's a lot.
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  Yeah.
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  And one of the things we actually have tools that you can use So there is a simple heat
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  mapping exercise you would do based on what the changes are, who are the employees that will be
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  impacted, and what type of impact will they experience.
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  Is it a different behavior that we want them to do a new technology, a new process?
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  And then when you map it out, the darker the red, which means more compounded more complex
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  and multi tier changes that an employee or a group of employees will be experiencing that
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  helps you actually make prioritization decisions about where should you invest energy
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  and how best to that's where the strategy comes in.
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  Absolutely.
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  Because if you think about it, right, like, I mean, if it's if it's a certain level of of
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  your organization or if it's every level, and it could be it could be how you can, you know,
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  communicate it.
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  And I often say that I would see with the different organizations with change is that,
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  one of the biggest culprits that I would see is that people wouldn't know how to deliver
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  messages.
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  Mhmm.
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  And and the appropriate style and the amount that they should be sharing at the time of
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  preview prior to.
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  Right?
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  It's like, You get nothing.
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  I remember I went through a major chain.
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  I went through with the 1 organized.
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  I went through 4 changes.
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  Wow.
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  And, some, you know, some of them were very fluid, and you could tell, yes, it's this is
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  positive.
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  Yes.
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  There's gonna be different things happening.
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  Do different expectations.
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  And other ones who was just boom.
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  It's done.
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  Right?
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  And then
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  That's so right on the money about the communication piece.
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  I often say that.
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  Sometimes I all say communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate.
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  So tell me what you think about that because I know, obviously, you know, with my background
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  and and the kind of work that I do.
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  I'm always talking to people about, Randy, you don't know someone's internal space.
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  You know, and from a, you know, a business perspective, tactical has to be talked about
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  process has to be talked about, you know, all the all the pieces that have to be placed so
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  the business can run.
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  But the individual is peaceful.
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  The employee or the or the employee could be a manager.
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  They could be a VP or they could be the CEO.
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  It doesn't matter.
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  But that space within that individual becomes really important for them to be able to share,
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  not overshare, like, you know, but to share in an appropriate way so that they could get what
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  they need to be able to maneuver the change well.
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  I think you are hitting the most important point That was a lesson I learned, through many
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  trials and tribulations.
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  I used to undervalue communications, when I just started off my career.
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  Didn't think it was that important.
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  I the narrative has completely flipped.
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  The most important thing in successful change management is communication.
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  I know you cannot ever under communicate no matter how much you're communicating, but what
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  you can do as an organization is be strategic about what is the best medium frequency and
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  format of communication.
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  So from a VP perspective, It's having that systematic rollout of, as a sponsor, people
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  still need to hear from me about why are we embarking this change?
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  What is the case?
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  And usually, It's wonderful when we're as aspiring for competitive advantage or something
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  external in that environment that requires us to change, but also looking at the internal
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  factors What happens if we don't change?
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  Where does that leave us?
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  So it's almost addressing and building a case because we're all professionals and grown up in
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  organizations.
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  People want rationalization for why are you asking me to do something differently?
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  And it's not acceptable and not respectful when the organization uses the approach of because
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  we said so.
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  Or I don't have time, use your common sense to figure out why we need to do this.
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  It really has to be spelled out, and that spelling out has to be done in in empathic,
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  compassionate, and at the same time rational way so that at least a critical mask can make
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  sense and say, you know what?
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  That makes sense.
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  We do need to do something different.
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  So it's the sharing piece that starts, but when you go down the hierarchical chain within an
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  organization, it's the immediate managers that are responsible for that personal space
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  conversations.
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  My manager knows me well enough, or I know my staff well.
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  And it's in that space we can have sense making conversations about what does this change mean
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  for our team?
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  What does it mean for our future roles?
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  What does it mean for the projects that people are working on?
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  Are they going to park now, or do we need to redirect resources, or is this on top of
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  everything we're doing?
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  And what does that mean for my status and my contribution?
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  These are very personal questions and communication that an organization can't have
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  with employees directly.
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  It can only happen through line managers.
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  So I have different levels.
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  There's different type of communication, and it's great if the VP is super resourceful and
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  believes in leadership by walking, you know, the halls of their manual building.
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  But the reality is for multinational organizations, It's not feasible for somebody
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  at the top, a CEO, or a VP, or even sometimes directors to really be able to connect
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  personally.
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  With individuals.
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  So there's a lot of academic research that is talking about frontline managers or supervisors
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  being the linchpin of successful change management because they're the only ones that
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  can help employees make sense and meaning out of the change.
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  So communication is critical.
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  If I don't care, you can't make me do something different.
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  Isn't that the truth?
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  So or you can try.
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  But you can try it.
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  But you know what I hear as being something that I I I'd be interested in in hearing more
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  about is so then you said the front line kind of middle managers or people with direct
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  reports that are involved with day to day functioning are the key, the pivotal kind of
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  driver of change.
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  So the, obviously, the senior, executive team up to the CEO set strategy they also have to
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  have buy in, but they have to be able to deliver or connect from one level to another
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  Mhmm.
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  To to to create that vision and buy in for the people that are gonna be delivering it.
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  Sometimes, not all the time.
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  I'm sure you have to Some of those people that are very senior, oftentimes, are not so good at
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  communicating because they're so tactically left brain based.
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  Yeah.
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  Can you talk more about that and how you assist with organizations to help them when when that
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  might happen?
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  Mhmm.
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  For sure.
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  I'll start by your comment about this differential that you've noticed.
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  It is quite common.
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  I also think the other part that really contributes to this gap in communication
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  between the VP and the director or the director and the manager, there is this expectation that
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  is not verbalized normally.
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  How many times do a land and organization that say only if our directors were highly
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  competent, only for managers were highly competent, we would be able to deliver.
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  But performance management requires the number one tenant is, are you clarifying expectations?
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  Do your directors know what they have to do when you announce the change.
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  Have they been part of developing the strategy?
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  Buayan doesn't happen by reading about it or hearing about it.
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  Buyen happens when I'm engaged, and you've brought me along for the journey.
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  I think it is, William Bridges, who is, who was a business consultant.
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  And the idea is that no matter what change you're talking about, it could be process or a
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  project or technology, any external, it doesn't matter.
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  It's the internal change that any person goes through, which is consistent as an experience.
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  If we can help people understand what that journey means, and how to actually take
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  initiative and get through that, then we would have enabled them to work through change.
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  So in some cases, My support is with VPs is depending on when they brought me on board
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  would be to actually bring the group together to understand what have they shared with a
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  director group.
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  What are their opinions?
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  Sometimes I do that through an anonymous survey so that I can take that feedback back to the
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  senior leadership team.
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  And show what do they know that we have not considered?
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  And how did they feel about the changes?
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  So there's a lot of insight that gets generated.
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  Because so much is taken for granted as compared to what actually is happening.
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  So my engagement usually the first part is around a discovery process.
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  So that involves one on one meetings with the VPs.
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  And then either survey or depending on the number of people, they have some focus groups
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  with their key leaders, through middle management.
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  And then I organized that data to provide insights as con and contrast that to what I've
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  heard from the senior leadership team.
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  And from that, I also look, and my this is my unique piece in which I make sure I'm bringing
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  the influencers along.
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  And it doesn't matter.
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  If they don't have positions of power, let's say a director title or a manager title, but it
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  could be a frontline consultant or a nurse who's extremely influential, very well liked
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  and respected, and everybody knows.
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  If I ask ten people in the organization tell me who the 5 movers and shakers are, and the same
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  names start, you know, boiling up.
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  I know I know that these people have influence.
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  So my job is also to get that group together.
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  So that they become advisors to figuring out what the strategy needs to be.
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  Well, that's
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  so important, right?
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  Because if you you have people that sometimes are so powerful in an organization, but they
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  may not have the title, but they're well respected.
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  They're a role model.
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  They're a mentor.
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  They may be been there, or maybe they haven't been there that long, but they really, have
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  made an impression with others.
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  And they're I I call them a leader.
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  Right?
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  They may not have the formal title.
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  Right?
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  Lead people just by their actions.
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  And and what a smart thing to be able to know who those people are.
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  And they're asking another side to that because with corporate culture, when you're going in,
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  I'm gonna see what some of your ongoing clients, you know the culture.
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  But if it's a new client, let's say the culture has not been the most positive, and then
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  they're going through change.
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  How do you approach that?
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  So my first question you would be who has told me that the culture is not positive.
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  And if it's the senior leader saying, you know what?
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  It's been a rough patch.
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  I feel we have a toxic culture or people are not performing well.
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  Nobody cares.
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  Depending on who has built that narrative, my first work is almost as a coach with them to
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  explore if those assumptions are true.
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  Okay.
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  And what has what experiences have led them to those assumptions?
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  And based on that, I may also ask their peers, like, my work is a lot, 1 on 1 with the senior
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  leadership team.
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  So there's usually some inconsistency in the narrative.
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  And once we can figure out what that is, and let's say we established, definitely, this is a
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  culture where there's a commonly recognized problem or set of problems, depending on what
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  that challenge is, if it's truly broken, extremely dysfunctional, Roxanne, I would say
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  on two occasions, I've asked them to park the change.
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  There is some healing and some conversations that need to happen.
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  Not even to rebuild trust, but just to but if it's truly dysfunctional, the healing has to
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  happen before change can happen.
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  So you you recognize that because that that's the thing.
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  It's almost like you're building
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  a house and it's it's it's it's built on quicksand.
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  If there's been massive problems.
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  So you you will work with them to look at it for what it is and to say maybe this change is
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  it's not the best time for now.
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  Just to kind of give some time whether it's, like you said, for healing or just connections,
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  those types of things.
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  And and I would assume that most people that are looking at the entire landscape would say,
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  oh, yeah.
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  It makes sense.
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  Yeah.
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  Yes, And at the same time, there is, oh, no.
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  That doesn't mean we can go forward.
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  We have to do this.
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  But because my area of expertise is also HR, I usually look at multiple sources of data to
• 20:19
  help identify where would be the best way to invest energy.
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  So that's where you start looking at positive deviance.
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  So if you have 10 departments, and yes, overall, the culture is pretty toxic or
• 20:30
  complacent, but there's this one department that continues to outperform others.
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  You start there.
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  So that you can start building, you know, the positive momentum through small wins.
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  So if there is absolute need that we cannot wait and healing has to happen concurrently,
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  then the intention is usually set on, let's be strategic about where we invest and who we
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  bring to the forefront as a owner of that change.
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  Because there may be other people who are respected.
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  Maybe you have a lot of history with field changes, not necessarily because of your own
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  doing, just circumstantially.
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  It's also positioning and pairing to make sure that there is more acceptance and willingness
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  from people.
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  So now when I was, doing health and wellness consultants, you know, consultancy, we would
• 21:14
  look at all the metrics.
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  We would look at incidental absences.
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  We would look at short term claims, long term claims.
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  We would look at arbitrations.
• 21:21
  It was union and stuff like that.
• 21:23
  And in reference to change management, what kind of metrics do you look at in reference to
• 21:29
  the impact on the employees and kind of the markers you're trying to kind of hit.
• 21:36
  Mhmm.
• 21:36
  Effectively maneuver change.
• 21:38
  Are there certain things you look at?
• 21:40
  Absolutely.
• 21:41
  Yeah.
• 21:42
  So I would say independent of the change, a few basic things that I am interested in and ask
• 21:47
  for.
• 21:48
  Is, basic demographics, their engagement survey, if they have done 1, if they haven't
• 21:54
  done a comprehensive engagement survey, that does raise some alarms about we do need to hear
• 22:00
  from people.
• 22:01
  How are they doing?
• 22:02
  Like, if we don't have a baseline, to start from, that really becomes a source of
• 22:06
  recommendation that we're starting that's not strategy yet.
• 22:12
  I can we can be strategic if we don't know, differentially, how your organization's doing.
• 22:17
  So but if they do have employee engagement data that becomes, it really, really helpful.
• 22:21
  I also ask them for any, performance or, program evaluation reports that they may have
• 22:26
  done around major launches that they have done in the past year.
• 22:31
  What else I may ask?
• 22:32
  It also depends on what type of change we're talking about and which group if they do
• 22:37
  collect any other data, I do actually ask them if there's anything that you think I should be
• 22:41
  aware of, that may provide me additional insights.
• 22:43
  And preparing.
• 22:45
  It's not so much data, but I always always look to the strategic plan because we wanna make
• 22:50
  sure that the change that they're introducing is directly going to advance your strategy.
• 22:56
  So those are some sources that consistently get used.
• 23:01
  So tell me tell me about a strategy that you've seen has not gone so well and one that you and
• 23:07
  ones that you think these are some of the key things that made them successful?
• 23:12
  A strategy that I created that did not go well.
• 23:17
  I'm I'm trying to think.
• 23:21
  See, the great, I would say before we even jump into this, one of the first things that we work
• 23:27
  together as the senior leadership team, including the project managers working on the
• 23:31
  change, is something called the case for change.
• 23:33
  And the most important question, I would encourage project managers and one that coaches
• 23:40
  and consultants ask senior leaders is how will you define change success?
• 23:45
  And for some people, it means that going back to technology is an easier one.
• 23:50
  Technology got implemented.
• 23:52
  Is that good enough, or is it that people are consistently now using new technology, or that
• 23:59
  your outcome metric, which is the errors gone down or people have more time, you know, going
• 24:04
  back to health care because they do a lot of work in health care that now page, doctors and,
• 24:09
  allied health professionals are now able to spend more time on that side.
• 24:13
  So it really depends on how they define.
• 24:15
  I don't force it on them.
• 24:16
  I do educate what success can look like.
• 24:19
  And sometimes it's good enough that it got implemented depending on circumstances and what
• 24:24
  the change is all about.
• 24:27
  An example that is coming to my mind right now is a project that did in South Africa, and it
• 24:33
  was a merger between 2, it was, well, they called it a merger, but it was really an
• 24:37
  acquisition, by the larger organization of this private, company up and comer.
• 24:43
  And I was involved at the very beginning, so that was fantastic.
• 24:47
  But when we did the planning and developed the strategy, one of the contingencies, because
• 24:51
  they were so geographically spread was to make sure that there are implementation managers to
• 24:57
  roll out somebody who's gonna make sure that the activities that we have recommended
• 25:02
  actually get done.
• 25:04
  And it wasn't physically possible for me.
• 25:05
  I don't always do implementation.
• 25:07
  I support it.
• 25:09
  Sometimes as a coaching call once a month, but they didn't opt for any of that.
• 25:13
  They decided they will take this forward.
• 25:15
  I later when I met with the client who had hired me, he informed me how things had gone
• 25:23
  south because it just was too geographically spread.
• 25:27
  To manage, and they didn't wanna put resources.
• 25:30
  When you don't dedicate resource to a change, people see that it's not important enough And
• 25:36
  they see that as a symbol that this may be just a fad or a seasonal thing.
• 25:41
  It will pass.
• 25:42
  It did not serve the client well at all.
• 25:44
  And what could be have done differently in that situation?
• 25:50
  I think it was my first organization where it was so geographically spread.
• 25:53
  I did caution it, but I think it could have done more.
• 25:57
  Perhaps if I had other examples in my life where I had experienced, negatively, how
• 26:02
  important implementation support is when you have a multinational.
• 26:06
  It makes such a big difference.
• 26:08
  I think I would be much more vigilant and, persuasive in making sure there's
• 26:14
  implementation support.
• 26:16
  Yeah.
• 26:16
  And, I mean, that consistent message and reports.
• 26:19
  And, you know, if if they're, you know, 5 hours away in between and and, I mean, you don't have
• 26:24
  to support, hands on deck at the one location versus another, And if they're not consistently
• 26:29
  having that same messaging or the port, it's tough.
• 26:33
  Right?
• 26:33
  It it is really tough.
• 26:34
  So, like, to to your point, you don't you have to sometimes think if it's east to west coast,
• 26:39
  some places are very remote.
• 26:42
  Right?
• 26:42
  And, you know, versus places like us with the GTA, it's no big deal.
• 26:46
  Right?
• 26:47
  You have, you know, West Endy stand all those things.
• 26:49
  If you have, say, a hospital that has locations, which I manage before.
• 26:54
  There'd be a couple.
• 26:55
  No big deal.
• 26:56
  You know, pretty get together.
• 26:57
  But if it's kinda like a remote location and all the rest is kind of separate.
• 27:02
  I've I've been involved once with a a kind of a merger acquisition to, what is now Meridian
• 27:09
  Credit Union years ago.
• 27:10
  And it was hebco in Toronto.
• 27:13
  And, it was not a credit union at that time.
• 27:17
  So they were considered the north south And the cultures were so drastically different that
• 27:24
  there was almost like, dissensioned between both.
• 27:28
  Right?
• 27:28
  So we were involved in strategies of trying to kind of, you know, discuss the change, talk
• 27:33
  about it, but there was still this illusion because this was the these were the Torontoians
• 27:38
  and there's with the people from Niagara that somehow they were better because they were, you
• 27:42
  know, they were closer to the the the business sector, those types of things.
• 27:46
  But she could kind of see how, you know, like you said, like, I often say it's like when
• 27:51
  you're telling a story, right, and you're now shifting the story of the narrative.
• 27:55
  Mhmm.
• 27:56
  You have to tell tell a beginning, a middle and an end.
• 27:58
  Absolutely.
• 27:59
  Right?
• 28:00
  And if you don't do it well, you know, then you kinda have bits and bytes and then people start
• 28:04
  to react.
• 28:05
  Visually to, you know, changes because they don't know how it's gonna impact them.
• 28:09
  So let's talk a little bit about some of the internal on on the on the soft end or the
• 28:15
  psychological or the people end with stress and, change.
• 28:20
  And What kind of things do you generally are are implemented for a successful change around
• 28:26
  the stresses other than communication?
• 28:31
  The person I was talking about before William Bridges, his model is so basic.
• 28:36
  Like, every change consultant knows it.
• 28:38
  Most people who've gone through change know it, but I really do feel that this is the
• 28:43
  foundation of the change journey.
• 28:46
  And every time, even when it's desired change, personal change, getting married, something
• 28:51
  you're so excited, marrying the love of your life, but now, you have to share space.
• 28:56
  You have to figure out schedules together.
• 28:59
  Can you travel, you know, both at the same time?
• 29:01
  Like, Any happy change also brings so much checking you out of autopilot, and that
• 29:09
  requires patience.
• 29:11
  And compassion for yourself and the other.
• 29:14
  And now if you think about the complete opposite where change was not planned, you were
• 29:18
  not expecting your organization's gonna be bought by another organization, or that you're
• 29:23
  gonna end up having, a new boss that you were not expecting Those are things that hit you
• 29:29
  even harder because you're not anticipating them.
• 29:32
  And there is a bit of a trust breach sometimes where you have a contract, a psychological
• 29:38
  contract with the organization, and you feel I thought I was always going to be working for
• 29:45
  you in this format doing this job.
• 29:47
  But that mindset doesn't serve as well.
• 29:50
  And I think the best thing we can do doesn't matter which industry we work in.
• 29:56
  Is to truly sit with the idea the change is constant, which means as much as I don't want,
• 30:02
  change things may be going super great, The fact that there was nothing permanent.
• 30:07
  So am I open?
• 30:08
  It's not to live in fear.
• 30:10
  I coach clients and they're like, so I should keep expecting for the next you know, shoot a
• 30:15
  drop.
• 30:15
  Like, no, that's not the idea.
• 30:17
  The idea is that if and when unplay chain, change comes your way, it's to remember that
• 30:24
  it's normal.
• 30:25
  I will get through it.
• 30:27
  Every individual, I would say if you were above 20, you have gone through enough life
• 30:32
  experiences and changes that you weren't expecting didn't want, and you did okay.
• 30:38
  You make through that.
• 30:39
  You're gonna make through the future.
• 30:41
  So and from an organizational perspective, it's wonderful how many organizations invest in
• 30:46
  training for building change capability.
• 30:49
  Usually for leaders, I would invite do it more.
• 30:53
  Extend that training to people help them understand what does it mean to work through
• 30:57
  change, and the process of letting go of how things are right now.
• 31:01
  What does it mean to be truly conscious and still not burdened by a new way of learning how
• 31:06
  to do things differently and becoming comfortable in an environment where I may now
• 31:11
  feel like a beginner and not expert that I am.
• 31:13
  So there's so much psychological turmoil of going through unplanned change, Organizations
• 31:20
  can really support their employees if they have invested before unplanned change happens to
• 31:26
  help them work through build their skills so that when you introduce to change their better
• 31:30
  equipped, I think employees can also take that responsibility in learning for themselves and
• 31:35
  reflecting and there's so many sources, books, blogs, videos out there.
• 31:40
  There is no shortage of resources.
• 31:44
  Is there so this, what what is his name?
• 31:47
  What bridges
• 31:47
  you said?
• 31:48
  William.
• 31:48
  William.
• 31:49
  Okay.
• 31:49
  So
• 31:49
  And the book is called Transition Management.
• 31:52
  Transition management.
• 31:53
  Okay.
• 31:53
  So that's a good one for people to consider.
• 31:55
  Absolutely.
• 31:56
  So, Randy, what you're saying, it's it's it's it's almost like, look, let's accept that
• 32:00
  change happens.
• 32:01
  What does it need for me?
• 32:02
  Like, how do I respond?
• 32:03
  What's my personality type?
• 32:06
  How do I respond?
• 32:07
  I've either the changes happening to me or if I'm making the change, I probably feel more
• 32:11
  comfortable because I had to put my ducks in a row, but if it's coming at me, it's almost like
• 32:16
  I often say it's like being sites wiped on the 401.
• 32:18
  Right?
• 32:20
  You you kinda you're trying to, you know, adjust to the change.
• 32:23
  Yeah.
• 32:23
  But so that I think getting comfortable with that concept of saying, I like this.
• 32:28
  This is not good.
• 32:29
  I'm gonna miss you know, working with you or seeing you in my or 11 o'clock meeting or, you
• 32:35
  know, us having our monthly get together as a as a team.
• 32:37
  I think that's the part that oftentimes when we would do the debriefings with the change
• 32:42
  management when I was in consulting, that's what would happen to people.
• 32:45
  They would they would talk about really, and it's it's it's in a way it's celebration,
• 32:50
  right, because they're they're talking about all the things that they really, really enjoyed
• 32:55
  And it's oftentimes not about per se the job.
• 32:58
  Mhmm.
• 32:59
  But it's about the connection.
• 33:01
  It is.
• 33:01
  It is.
• 33:02
  And I would say two things I would add to that, Roxanne, So many people with the range usually
• 33:11
  decide not to voice it out to the person who can actually do something about it.
• 33:15
  And they decide to vent or get unhappy about it, the ultimate single thing you can do for
• 33:20
  yourself or your well-being is to take initiative.
• 33:22
  If you're unhappy with the change, Let's have a conversation.
• 33:26
  I am sure somebody who is up top will appreciate a new perspective about maybe you
• 33:31
  see something from a frontline perspective that they have not even considered.
• 33:35
  So you would be adding value.
• 33:37
  So take initiative, whether you're happy, and if you're happy with the change, especially if
• 33:40
  you're a manager who is the one or a leader who's introducing the change.
• 33:44
  Practice compassion.
• 33:46
  You have probably thought about this change for weeks, if not months, And the moment you
• 33:51
  announced that you want people to come on board, they need to digest that information.
• 33:55
  They need to make it their own.
• 33:57
  So that requires time.
• 33:59
  And it's almost a marathon.
• 34:00
  It's called a marathon effect.
• 34:01
  The idea that a leader is so far vision for change, but when they announce it, they want
• 34:09
  people to meet them there at the finish line when there are people in the marathon that
• 34:13
  haven't even started.
• 34:14
  They haven't they haven't even
• 34:16
  gotten out the gates.
• 34:17
  And No.
• 34:18
  And the the the CEO is about to get passed.
• 34:22
  Yes.
• 34:22
  Per mile is not so true.
• 34:24
  That's that's a good perspective.
• 34:25
  So, really, it's a it's compassion too for each other.
• 34:28
  Right?
• 34:28
  Because oftentimes, it's kinda like I say, you know, my perception and I've been there.
• 34:32
  So I I I can, you know, you know, remember being, oh my goodness.
• 34:37
  Not another change.
• 34:38
  And it was it was because it wasn't being communicated.
• 34:41
  And I always said when I was a manager and there was change, I would communicate with even
• 34:45
  when I knew nothing.
• 34:46
  I would say here's the deal.
• 34:48
  Yeah.
• 34:48
  What we knew last month, and I worked for a hospital out here for about 8 years, and that
• 34:53
  was always changed.
• 34:54
  That's just before the lens came in.
• 34:56
  Right?
• 34:56
  Wow.
• 34:57
  I worked for the Niagara Health System for years and, people were always complaining and
• 35:01
  and change was coming.
• 35:02
  And then, you know, and then, of course, the lens happened.
• 35:05
  So you can imagine what that's world was.
• 35:07
  Right.
• 35:07
  And, but but people will always they people just need to know.
• 35:12
  Yeah.
• 35:12
  There's nothing coming.
• 35:14
  Yeah.
• 35:14
  There is something coming or we really don't know, but how will we don't how will we talk
• 35:18
  about not knowing?
• 35:20
  Mhmm.
• 35:20
  And that seemed to be as a as a, manager at that point around a unit.
• 35:24
  That's that seemed to keep people going even though they were people are often scared about
• 35:28
  what's what does this mean for me?
• 35:30
  Right.
• 35:31
  And also that develops trust.
• 35:33
  I can trust that Roxanne will tell me.
• 35:34
  If there was a news, she will keep me apprised, and that gives me comfort in knowing that
• 35:39
  there's nothing unplanned.
• 35:41
  Then you will give me some time.
• 35:42
  And if it's unplanned and you were like, I didn't know about it.
• 35:45
  There's no trust currency that people would like, okay.
• 35:49
  So what do we do?
• 35:50
  Here's a situation how do we work through it.
• 35:53
  But if there is a pattern of a leader never communicating, people finding out for different
• 35:58
  Grapevine or a different source, It you've lost the opportunity to build trust, and I
• 36:03
  understand how many times I've been in situations where it's all Hashash.
• 36:07
  You cannot talk about it And that's part of the strategy devising as well about what is the
• 36:12
  right time of sharing because sharing too soon before things have been finalized and then
• 36:18
  pointing people or how much information needs to go out, but more often than not, you should
• 36:22
  start early use as soon as you can.
• 36:25
  As much as you can, and in different formats.
• 36:28
  And intuitively, I think as an being an employee and also being a manager that had more
• 36:33
  information.
• 36:34
  You knew there were certain things you could share.
• 36:37
  Yeah.
• 36:37
  And if I shared too much, it would be destructive.
• 36:40
  So it's it's, like, I think we're going back again to communication and trust.
• 36:44
  Right?
• 36:45
  So I would say, and I I I don't know if you would concur with this that, the capacity or
• 36:50
  the skill sets of managers becoming become very, very vital.
• 36:55
  Yes.
• 36:55
  Obviously, prior to change, but even more so as you're supposed to change Right?
• 37:00
  Because if they're stressed and they're not effectively dealing with what's happening,
• 37:05
  because they're worried about what's gonna happen to them, and they're not able to kind of
• 37:09
  collate within themselves what they need to do to be able to just kind of feel okay with the
• 37:13
  change.
• 37:14
  And then they have to report to others, that makes it a little bit difficult also.
• 37:18
  Absolutely.
• 37:19
  And which manager is not stressed?
• 37:21
  I mean, health care is tourious for the span of control that the managers have.
• 37:27
  How do you have a personal relationship with 100 nurses?
• 37:30
  Is that need that's not humanly possible?
• 37:33
  So the stress is as much a given as change for these managers.
• 37:39
  What organizations can do above and beyond is really invest in according these managers.
• 37:44
  It is building relationships between the directors and managers.
• 37:48
  It's providing coaching.
• 37:49
  It's providing, I'm knowing what their story and their goals are.
• 37:52
  Like, as a director, if you have 10 or 15 managers, hopefully not more than that,
• 37:58
  reporting to you, do you understand what their individual goals are?
• 38:02
  Do they need external coaches?
• 38:04
  Do they need specific skills or resources?
• 38:07
  That transparency, the expectations we have of managers are the same expectations we need to
• 38:12
  have as senior leaders and how they tweet their direct reports.
• 38:16
  I think so.
• 38:17
  And I think it it it is it is really a tiered effect Right?
• 38:20
  It's like, you know, it's like, okay.
• 38:22
  Does the CEO have his vision and and and kind of clearly in place?
• 38:26
  Is he connected to his senior team?
• 38:28
  Mhmm.
• 38:28
  I was able to kind of relate to them.
• 38:30
  And I've I've heard, you know, of so many times where people are afraid to share Yeah.
• 38:36
  Truly what's going on with the CEO, except the, you know, so the CEO is relying on the senior
• 38:41
  team to really tell him what it is.
• 38:44
  But they're thinking, well, maybe I'll be perceived as, you know, you know, panel it or,
• 38:49
  those types of things.
• 38:50
  And then things don't get up to the CEO, and it gets trickled down in a way that's maybe
• 38:56
  incongruents, right, from their level to the middle managers to the front line, you know,
• 39:02
  So, hopefully, the senior, mostly leader, the CEO is actually using multiple sources of
• 39:10
  input, not just a senior leadership team.
• 39:12
  He or she is walking the hallways and actually takes time to create avenues for people to
• 39:16
  speak out.
• 39:17
  Two things that have worked really successful for me, in change management support for senior
• 39:21
  leadership.
• 39:22
  Number 1, I used, I don't know if you're familiar with Slido.
• 39:26
  There's a well, there are multiple open forums where people can anonymously, ask questions,
• 39:32
  provide feedback.
• 39:33
  So with any major strategist, a strategizing session, I actually ask the CEO to host those
• 39:39
  forms.
• 39:39
  So it's like a town hall, but people can ask questions online.
• 39:44
  And then others in the audience can upload or download.
• 39:47
  So you're using that time to have a very real conversation.
• 39:51
  Anonymity also gives people courage.
• 39:53
  Sometimes you have to draw up the boundaries of what respectful approach looks like.
• 39:58
  But more often than not, both CEO and employees have in awe about how real and authentic the
• 40:05
  conversation was.
• 40:06
  And that is what does trust and change, and that goes such a long way.
• 40:10
  The second thing I would say from a change management perspective is the dashboards we
• 40:14
  create to actually evaluate whatever, however they've defined success so that you're not just
• 40:20
  waiting till the end.
• 40:21
  You're getting trickling reports up to see is the plan going according to how we had
• 40:28
  structured it?
• 40:28
  So I believe a CEO should be using multiple sources of input.
• 40:33
  To make sure that he or she is informed about what's happening.
• 40:36
  Same goes for the rest of the senior leadership team.
• 40:39
  Yeah.
• 40:40
  Multiple levels of information and you never know where you get your the most valid
• 40:45
  information sometimes.
• 40:46
  Right.
• 40:47
  Right.
• 40:48
  You
• 40:48
  know, I often used to say when I, would, you know, go into my company's quarterly, I could
• 40:54
  tell the pulse.
• 40:55
  Let's say I was getting a new account by sitting in the reception area by the
• 41:00
  receptionist.
• 41:01
  And you know what?
• 41:03
  Sandeep, generally, I was not incorrect because you could tell.
• 41:06
  Right?
• 41:07
  You could tell if the person had a really not you know, and some people are very good at
• 41:10
  frontline.
• 41:12
  People, you could kinda tell you feel that almost a disconnection or a bit of, you know,
• 41:18
  and and then often when you kinda get in and then, of course, we're rolling out
• 41:21
  psychological services.
• 41:23
  Yeah.
• 41:23
  That's those types of things.
• 41:24
  And we're talking from all the way up to the senior team all the way down to the front line.
• 41:29
  Right.
• 41:29
  That was very interesting because then you would hear the perspectives.
• 41:33
  You know, and then you're like, wow.
• 41:34
  It's interesting because then you could kinda see, okay, with the you're hearing this front
• 41:38
  line.
• 41:39
  You're hearing this from the middle management.
• 41:41
  You're hearing this from the upper level management, but there's well, that doesn't make
• 41:45
  sense.
• 41:45
  If this is how you're how how come that's not happening there.
• 41:48
  So it's but I would often be able to tell just by sitting in the reception.
• 41:51
  And then sometimes I'm new.
• 41:53
  Right?
• 41:53
  So they have no idea who I am.
• 41:55
  Right.
• 41:55
  That would give me even more because it didn't have to be any way.
• 41:59
  Yes.
• 42:00
  You know, so my other side of, businesses around HR strategy And when an organization
• 42:06
  engages me, usually the first part of the engagement is doing an audit, and that does
• 42:10
  involve me spending time there observing and then matching it against the data and the
• 42:14
  narrative I've heard.
• 42:15
  And
• 42:16
  there's such insight.
• 42:17
  If there's congruence, if it's good, good for us.
• 42:20
  If there's congruence, but it's negative, it really gives you the questions you should be
• 42:25
  asking to critically appraise the situation.
• 42:27
  So it's amazing how much you can gather and learn by just being present.
• 42:35
  Yes.
• 42:35
  Which is one of the harder pieces with international work because so much of it is
• 42:40
  virtual.
• 42:42
  And there's a lot of posturing when and we wanna use our time well.
• 42:48
  I think once people are in long term contracts, over time, it's hard to posture for too long.
• 42:53
  You can't keep pretending the authentic self does come out.
• 42:56
  So but it's still if it's a short term contract, it becomes a bit of challenge relying
• 43:01
  on the virtual pace.
• 43:02
  It's harder.
• 43:03
  You know, I like I say, any of us could perform for any period of time, but I like you said,
• 43:07
  Yero multi level contracts.
• 43:09
  Like, I
• 43:10
  mean, oftentimes I would deal with, I mean, I would have contacts for 10 years.
• 43:14
  So guess what?
• 43:14
  We got to know each other real well.
• 43:18
  Right?
• 43:18
  Like, you know, and then, obviously, you get to know each other others lives and kind of, you
• 43:22
  know, what's going on and not just the company's lives, you get to know them, and
• 43:26
  that's that's oftentimes very, very important.
• 43:29
  So this has been lovely.
• 43:31
  Yeah.
• 43:32
  I enjoyed it.
• 43:33
  Yes.
• 43:33
  So, you know, obviously, you speak.
• 43:36
  You train.
• 43:36
  You do HR, consulting.
• 43:38
  I know you do, keynoting your business.
• 43:40
  I think you said was around 5050.
• 43:42
  Mhmm.
• 43:43
  So for anybody that's, wanting to reach out to you, that are interested in either you speaking
• 43:48
  or doing a strategy, for something.
• 43:50
  I'm sure people that are listening are thinking, oh, this young lady can help you do
• 43:54
  with certain things.
• 43:55
  Where could they reach you and, connect with you to to either get a an initial call or maybe
• 44:02
  a strategy meeting with you.
• 44:04
  Just email me or LinkedIn.
• 44:06
  Just send me a message there, I would be absolutely delighted to make that connection
• 44:10
  and would love to actually meet your audience personally.
• 44:13
  Awesome.
• 44:14
  So what we'll do is we'll, we'll we'll put you at the link for your website, along with
• 44:20
  LinkedIn.
• 44:20
  And if anybody's wanting to connect with you, they can do that.
• 44:24
  So again, my pleasure.
• 44:25
  So for everyone listening, what what are we learning?
• 44:27
  We learn that at the end of the day, you know, as individuals, we come to companies, and
• 44:34
  changes the changes the constant.
• 44:36
  So if we could really connect and think about, if we don't know what the change is gonna look
• 44:41
  like, talk about it.
• 44:43
  There's no right or wrong way to do change.
• 44:46
  If you're a senior leader, once you figure it out, it's your responsibility to really kind of
• 44:50
  put this this specific things in place, like Sandeep is saying to to create that positive,
• 44:56
  healthy change.
• 44:57
  And no reaction is a is a wrong other than we're we're all very, very different and to
• 45:03
  appreciate those differences.
• 45:04
  And at at the end of the day, we all just wanna go to work and and and have productive lives.
• 45:10
  You know, and we spent so much time at work.
• 45:12
  Why not, in creating change, try to do that the best way possible?
• 45:16
  So, again, Sandeep, thanks so much.
• 45:18
  And for everyone, I look forward to chatting with you again next week.
• 45:21
  K.
• 45:22
  Thank you for having me.
• 45:23
  Thanks, Sandeep.
• 45:24
  Bye.
• 45:25
  Bye.
• 45:26
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 45:32
  healthy change.
• 45:33
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 45:39
  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 45:43
  We'll see you next time.
• 45:45
  On authentic living with Roxanne.