Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 7-9) (9/25/26)

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Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 7-9) (9/25/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going to get right
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: back to the interview given by Corrections Officer Michael Thomas
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: who ended up getting charged after he says he fell
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: asleep the night that Jeffrey Epstein met his demise. And
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: in our last episode we went to a break. Now
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: they're back from the break and the questions are coming
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: in again from the redacted investigator. Question. Question. Some of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: those questions, then, you might not know the answers to.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Who are the MCC supervisors on duty with responsibility for
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: overseeing the SHU on August 9th and 10th, 2019? I'll
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: actually provide you with this duty agent roster to help. So,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: this is an MCC New York daily assignment roster for August, Friday,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: August 9th, 2019. Thomas, the 10th. Question, Saturday, August 10th, 2019. Question,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: so were the MCC supervisors on duty with the responsibility
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: for overseeing the SHU on August 9th and 10th, 2019?
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: So who would have? Is it true that the SHU lieutenant,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: if the SHU lieutenant is out of the office? Mitchell,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, can we do one question at a time?
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Because you jumped to the second and he didn't answer it. Question, well,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: it's because I wanted to explain that the SHU lieutenant
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: was out. Mitchell, okay. Question, so who then would be
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: responsible to oversee the SHU if the SHU lieutenant is out? Thomas, aye, whoa.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: If the SHU lieutenant's out, who would be responsible? Question,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: would it be the ops or activities lieutenant? Thomas, for
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: my shift or for the shift that I was on
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: at the time, that would be, he gets cut off. Question,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: just what's your understanding? So for August 9th, who would
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: be like, for instance... And we can start from when
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: you worked on August 9th. Who on August 9th would
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: have been responsible for overseeing the SHU if the SHU
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: lieutenant is not there? Thomas, um, I guess the operations lieutenant? Question, okay.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: And what does it say? Thomas, oh, um, he gets
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: cut off. And then after redacted gets off, it looks
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: like her duty was from, I think that they were
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: a little different, but it shows on this that it
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: was midnight to 8 a.m. I believe they actually worked
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. But after she would leave
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: at either 6 a.m. or 8 a.m., who would then
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: become the person with oversight in the shoe? Thomas, I
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: guess it's either. He gets cut off. Question, would it
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: be redacted or redacted? Thomas, it would be both redacted
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: and redacted. That's operations and the activities lieutenant. Question, okay.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: And then after them, it would be redacted and redacted. Thomas, oh, yes. Question, okay. Mr. Thomas, well, actually, well, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. Question,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: so is this how it works? These people up here,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: these are the operations lieutenant or activities lieutenant would have
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: oversight of the SHU. Mr. Thomas, well, if I'm not mistaken,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, I think, as I said, the
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: captain is the shoe's house. So I would say, well,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: direct supervisor would be First line super would be the
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: operations lieutenant and activities lieutenant. Question, okay, and would it be?
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: He gets cut off by Thomas. That goes for redacted. Question,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: one or the other? Would it be that one typically? Thomas, well,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: operations are ahead of the whole building. Question, so if
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: you had an issue with the shoe, who would you contact? Thomas,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the operations lieutenant. Question, not the activities, Lieutenant? Thomas, well,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: activities doesn't come in until six in the morning. Question, sure.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: So if the activities, Lieutenant, and both operations, Lieutenant, are
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: both present, and there was, I know you weren't working
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: this date during that time, but if someone, when they're
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: both on duty, who would be contacted? Activities or operations?
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Or is it either? Thomas, you would just say whatever
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: shoe needed. You say operations, you say operations. It really
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: depends on the situation. Depends on the situation. Whether you
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: would call the activities or the operations. But 9 out
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: of 10 times, mostly with this, you call operations. Question,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: and does activities lieutenant sit in operations? Thomas, what do
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: you mean? Question, so how does it work? Thomas, they
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: can be anywhere in the building. Question, are those two
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: individuals together? Thomas, no. Normally not together. They can be
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: anywhere in the building. Question, so would you ever call
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: on say activities? Thomas, there could be an instance where
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: you call and say activities when you don't want to bother.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: It depends, like I said, depending on the situation. Question, okay,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: and when you were in the shoe on August 10th,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: who would have been, who would have been or had
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: oversight as lieutenant on August 10th? Thomas redacted, Question redacted. Thomas. Yeah. Question.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant redacted. Thomas. Lieutenant, sir. Question. Okay, great. And then
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I think that she left at 6 a.m. Who would
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: have taken over that responsibility? Would it have been redacted? Thomas. Yeah. Question. Okay.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Who is Lieutenant? And I don't know exactly how to
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: pronounce his name, but redacted. Thomas. He's redacted. No on this.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Who is he? Not looking at this. Do
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: you know who he is? Lieutenant redacted. Thomas. Um, question.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant Thomas. He's a lieutenant at MCC. I think he
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: might be just a quarterly shoe lieutenant, I guess. Question.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: He was the shoe lieutenant. Thomas. Yeah. Question. Okay. Do
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: you know if he was the shoe lieutenant in August
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: of 2019? Thomas. I don't remember. I don't know. Question.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: So that's not something that you would know during the day.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Thomas during the day, yeah. Question, so that's nothing, he
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: gets cut off by Thomas, but it's like from the roster.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they posted it, it's probably somewhere on the
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: roster somewhere, but I mean if he says he's the
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: shoe lieutenant, he's the shoe lieutenant. If he was the
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: shoe lieutenant, if it was his quarter to have it,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: then he's the shoe lieutenant. Redacted, okay, do you know
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: if he was off on August 9th, 2019? Thomas, I
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: don't know. Question, you don't know. Sure, absolutely. Did you
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: have any communication with Lieutenant Redacted with regard to Epstein
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: being housed within the MCC? Thomas, no. Question, or in
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the shoe? Thomas, no. Question, any kind of email or
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: any kind of communication? When I say communication, I mean verbal. Thomas, oh. Question, emails, anything? Thomas,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: not that I know of, no. Not that I can recall. Question, okay,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: so did Lieutenant Redacted ever provide you with any kind
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: of special instruction with regard to Epstein? Thomas, no. Question,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: did Lieutenant Redacted ever tell you that Epstein was required
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: to have a cellmate when he was assigned to the SHU? Thomas, no. Question,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: do you know who was Operations Lieutenant Redacted? I guess
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: he was the Operations Lieutenant. Thomas, yeah. Question, is he
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: regularly the Operations Lieutenant? Thomas, it, it, he gets cut off.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Question at the time, Thomas, it varies. You know, it's
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: a rotating shift. So they could have switched shifts at
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: that time. It varies. Question. Okay. So according to this
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: August 9th, Thomas, this says that he comes in. Was
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: it six and eight, eight to four or seven to 10,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: whichever one? Well, it says eight. So it would be
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: eight to four question. Okay. I think that from my understanding,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: some of the lieutenants were actually working two hours before Thomas. Yeah. Question,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: so I think he was actually 6 a.m. to 2 p.m.,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: although it's confusing on this by looking at the roster.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: So when he was on, would have been responsible for
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: overall oversight of the shoe? Thomas, yeah. If he was
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: the operations lieutenant, yeah. Question, okay. Did you have any
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: communication with Redacted in regard to Epstein? Thomas, no. Question,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: or the shoe? Thomas, no. Question, no. So not even
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: any kind of, not even talking about Epstein with anything
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: to do with your responsibility in the shoe with Redacted? Thomas, no. Question, okay.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: And again, I'm going to say these names just to
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: try and change things around. Thomas, fine. Question, did Lieutenant
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Redacted ever provide you with special instruction with regard to Epstein? Thomas, no. Question,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: did Lieutenant Redacted ever tell you that Epstein was required
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: to have a cellmate while he was assigned to the shoe? Thomas, no. Question,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: who is Lieutenant Redacted? You don't even know? Thomas, he
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: just started there, I think. I want to say he
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: just started there. Just a transfer. He probably was there
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: two months. I think I vaguely remember him. Thomas, do
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: you know if any had involvement or oversight of the shoe? Thomas,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: I probably spoke to him twice. Redacted, twice. Do you
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: know what those communications entailed? Thomas, time. Question, anything to
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: do with Epstein? Thomas, no. Question, no. Never provided with
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: any special instruction with Epstein? Thomas, no. He never provided
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: any special instruction with Epstein. Question, never told you that
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Epstein was required to have a cellmate? Thomas, no. Question, okay,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: what about senior officer specialist redacted? Thomas, uh-huh, I know her. Question, yeah.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: So on August 9th, if you look at this, it
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: looks like she was the activity's lieutenant. Thomas, yeah. Question.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: From what appears to be, it says 2 p.m. to
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: 10 p.m. Obviously, you weren't there at that time, correct? Thomas, uh-huh.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: I wasn't there. Question. Question. You weren't there. At any time,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: did you have any communication with SOS redacted as far
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: as Epstein? Thomas, nope. Question, did she ever give you
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: any special instruction with Epstein? Thomas, no. Question, did she
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? Thomas, no. Question,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: while assigned to the SHU? No. Thomas, no. Question, now
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the staff members in the
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: SHU on August 10th when you were there. Thomas, okay. Question,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: all right, what BOP employees worked in the SHU on
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: August 10th, 2019 from approximately 12 a.m. to 6.30 a.m.? Mr. Thomas,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I'm Ms. Noel. Question, and yourself? Thomas and myself. Question, okay.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: And what was your role in the SHU on August 10th, 2019? Thomas,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: I was SHU 2. She was SHU 1. Question, and
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: what does that mean? Thomas, it just means that it's
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: just where you were assigned. It's just where I was assigned.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I was assigned there for overtime. She was assigned there
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: for overtime. Question, is there a difference between shoe one
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: and shoe two, though, like different responsibilities? Thomas, I couldn't.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: You have to read the past orders, the post orders.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you. Question, okay. Thomas, it depends. I mean,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: it really, really depends. That's definitely hard to explain because
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: is there a hierarchy? No. Remember, because she has, well,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: it's no hierarchy. Question, is the person with you the
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: most experienced in the BOP in command? Or how does
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: it work? When you're in there with another person, there's
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: only two of you. Is there someone that's in charge? Thomas,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say, they're going to say shoe, how
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: it is the BOP, how it is at the jail.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: They say shoe is in charge. Question, okay. Thomas, but
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: then with shoe one or somebody with more time, like
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: if I have more time with shoe one, how are
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: you going to be in charge when you have more time?
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: It depends. But then again, I'm non-custody. So it's all
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: different dynamics when it comes to that. But they will
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: say shoe one is usually in charge. If you bid
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: for shoe one, if you did a bid, they'll say
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: shoe one is in charge of the shoe. Question, okay.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: and you were shoe two that day? Thomas, I was
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: shoe two that day, yes. Question, okay, but because you
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: had seniority, is that? Thomas, it doesn't play out like that.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: It doesn't play like that. In a black and white sense,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: it doesn't play out like that. You're both equally responsible
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: because she's shoe two, and I'm shoe two. I mean,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: it doesn't, and on paper, it plays out that she's
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: shoe one. She's in charge, and I'm shoe two, but
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: it really doesn't play out like that. Redacted, so you're
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: both serving the same role, Thomas, We're both serving the
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: same roles, especially on Morning Watch. Question. Okay. Question. Same
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: duties and responsibilities. Thomas. Same duties and responsibilities. Well, because
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: you can't do one thing without the other. Question. Okay.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Because pretty much everything you do requires two people. Is
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: that why? Thomas. Supposed to. Yes. Question. Okay. Thomas. Yes. Question.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: And did you replace redacted? Thomas. Redacted. Redacted, did you
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: replace him at 12 a.m.? Thomas, okay, I guess. Redacted? Yes,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: if I can't remember. If they said it was redacted, yeah, okay.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I couldn't remember. It was somebody I had to replace.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: I don't remember who it was. Question, do you remember
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: having any interaction with redacted when you placed him? Thomas,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, redacted is like me. He's both non-custody, so
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: we work. He's trust fund, like how I'm trust fund.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: He's a material handler specialist. Question. Okay. Like me. So
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: I'll probably, I couldn't remember the exact communications that I started.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I probably said, what's up? Smacked him on the back
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: of the head. Redacted any kind of conversation. Question. Thomas. No,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: I really don't remember. Question. Okay. Did you speak with
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: him in regard to Epstein at all? Question. No. Or answer. No. Question.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Anything to do with like Reyes leaving the Epstein being alone? Thomas. No. Question. No.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: What conversation did you have with Noel during your shift
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: with regard to Epstein on August 10th? Answer, none. Question,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: you don't remember talking about him? Thomas, I don't remember
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: talking about him. Question, do you recall if anyone else
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: was present at any time at all in the SHU
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: on August 10th, 2019? Between the hours of 12 a.m.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: and 6.30 a.m. Thomas, I'm sure a lieutenant came up.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you when. I'm sure a lieutenant came
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: up once or I'm sure the lieutenant came up. Redacted.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: And who would have been the lieutenant that would have
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: come up? Thomas, a lieutenant redacted. Question. Okay. And do
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: you remember that interaction at all when the lieutenant came up? Answer. No,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: not really. Question. No. Thomas. Uh-huh. All right, folks, we're
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here. And in the next
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: where we left off. All the information that goes with
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: this episode is can be found in the description box.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: where we left off with the Michael Thomas deposition with
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: the OIG inspectors. Question, would that have been probably around
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: like 4 a.m.? Thomas, it's sporadic. There's no set particular
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: time that she had to be there by 3 or
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: 2 or 1, anything like that. But I'm sure during
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: the course of the day, during the course of the night,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant Redacted came by the shoe. Mr. Redacted, okay. Thomas,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: she always walks by. Question, do you remember if any
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: other CO came by maybe around like 5.30 a.m.? Thomas,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: it's supposed to be another CO that comes on at
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: 6 to 2. I don't recall them ever coming up.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: It says Redacted, but it's as you can see, it's
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: a 6 to 2 post. But I don't. Around 5?
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I don't remember any other. I don't remember any other
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: CO coming in. Mr. Redacted, okay. What about, like, a
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: breakfast cart? Who would provide that? How would that be done? Thomas, well,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: the breakfast cart, that they push into the hallway. I
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: wouldn't see the person down in the food service. I mean,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: they push down the hallway and ring the bell. And
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I don't remember who brought the food cart up, but
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the food cart came up, and then we seen in through...
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Our peripherals outside the hallway. Question. And then someone, Thomas,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: it's through a double door. Question. And then you go
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and you get it. Thomas. Yeah. Then we go and
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: retrieve it and we bring it inside the shoe. Yes. Question.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: And do you remember who it was that actually retrieved
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: it that morning? Thomas. I really don't remember. I think
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: she did. I don't know. I don't remember exactly who
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: did it. Question, okay. So the only person that you
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: remember that entered the SHU was redacted? Thomas, yes. Question, okay.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: What was her purpose for visiting the SHU on August 10th? Mr. Thomas,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: she visited all the housing units. Operations Lieutenant, she walks
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: around the building throughout the night. Question, part of her
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: duties and responsibilities? Thomas, yeah. Part of her duties, yes. Question, okay.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Can you just briefly explain what the process of entering
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: and exiting the SHU was? Thomas. Oh, wow. I can't
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: even remember the door. You call for the door. It's
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the 20. You call for the door to be opened.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: I can't remember the exact number of the door. You
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: call for the door to be opened. They ring the bell.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: You call for the door to be opened. Then you
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: have an inner door that's locked. You unlock that. You
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: call for the person. The person comes in. If it's
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a warden or anything like that, it's usually a book
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: that they have to sign saying that someone is Entered into.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: That they entered in. Or whatever the case may be.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: They entered in. And then you open the door. Question. Okay,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: so you initially said that they call. Who? Thomas. Well,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: one of the staff members inside called for the door.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: So me or Noel had to call for the door
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: to come in. Question. So someone comes at the outer door.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: The first door someone's got to go through. They call
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: you guys in the shoe? Thomas. No. They ring the bell. Question.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: They ring the bell. Thomas, if it's the outer door,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: it's the outer door, whichever number it is. The outer door.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: You ring the bell. It signals somebody's at the door.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: You look and you see. I see. I can see
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: and get your name, sir. You see whoever it is.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: You call for the door. Look to see if the individual.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: See redacted covering at the door. I call for the door.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: He comes in the door. Then there's another door that's locked.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: You unlock that door and they come in and then
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: you lock that door back. Question, so my question is though,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: on the outer door, who do you call? The control center? Thomas, yeah,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: you call the control center. Question, okay, and then does
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: someone come from the control center? Thomas looks down at it. Well,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: the control center verifies who it is at the door
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and then they open the door. Question, okay, and is
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: there like a camera there? Thomas, yeah, there's a camera
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: in the hallway. Redacted, okay, great. So control center allows
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: them to open the door first. Do they notify the
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: people in the shoe that someone's coming in? Thomas, we
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: notify them that someone's coming in. Question, okay. Thomas, because
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: we call for the door. Question, so they ring the bell,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: you call control. Thomas, call control center. Question, okay. And
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: then they come to that. And then does control center
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: have any involvement? With them, when you said you unlocked
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: the door? Thomas, no. Then it's another key for another door,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the inner door. Question, okay. And is it just the
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: people that are in the shoe that can allow someone
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to enter and exit? Thomas, for that inner door, yes. Question, okay.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: And who was it? How are the keys worked? Who
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: maintains control of those keys? Mr. Thomas, um, for the
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: morning watch shift? There's one control key, and usually the
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: number one person holds it. It's the key that they
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: never leave, the thing. I can't remember exactly what keys
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: are on there. Question, when you say on there, where
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: are they maintained? Thomas, they're maintained down in the control center. Question, okay,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: but are they like hung up somewhere? Thomas, yeah, they're
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: hung up on like a dashboard that says control. Question, wait,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. So I'm not confused. There's a key that
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: you guys utilize to open that door that's in the
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: control center? Thomas, yeah, that utilizes. Well, the control center
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: has the master key for all the doors. Question, I'm sorry,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: but the control center opens the outer door and then
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the inner door. Doesn't the people that are assigned to
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the shoe use a key? Thomas, yeah, that's the master
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: key that never leaves the shoe. Question, okay, so that's
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: the key I'm talking about. Where is that key maintained? Answer,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: usually the number one on shoe will have, like on
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: their person. Thomas, yeah, on the person. Usually shoe number
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: one holds that on the person the whole time. Question, okay,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: so it's not hung up somewhere? Thomas, no, it's not
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: hung up somewhere. The shoe one holds it on them
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: at all times. Question, okay, and do you recall on
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: August 9th, it was Noelle? Thomas, I'm sure. I'm sure
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: she had it. I'm sure she had it. Question, it
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: was Noelle then. Thomas, because I had the O, door
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: keys and cuff key. Or if I had my cuff key. Question,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: so if you have the door keys and the cuff keys,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: usually the other person is the one that has the
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: outer key. Thomas, it rotates. During the course of the day,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: it can rotate or anything like that. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: during the day, when somebody's feeding or somebody's doing this
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and you, the person... Would take this key, I'm going
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to go feed this row, or I'm about to go
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: do this. So if somebody's doing law library, it can rotate.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: But during the course of the night, usually shoe one
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: has one key, and then I come up with, eventually
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: grab another key. Redacted, question, okay, so on August 10th,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: you said you only recall redacted. Do you recall who
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: allowed her to enter? Who used the key? Thomas, I
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: don't remember. Question, no. Thomas, no. I don't remember who
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: popped the door for her to come in. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: it had to be either me or Noelle. It couldn't
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: have been nobody else. Question, and she was an authorized visitor? Thomas, who? Question, redacted,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: was an authorized visitor? Thomas, yeah. Question, and were you
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: with redacted? You or Noelle was with redacted during her
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: entire visit? Thomas, yes. Question, okay, did redacted ever approach
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Epstein's cell? Mr. Thomas, I don't know. I don't remember. Question,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: you don't recall. Do you recall any conversation with redacted
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: with regard to Epstein? Thomas, no. Question, she didn't ask
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: like how he's doing or anything like that. Thomas, no,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I don't. Question, and then who would have been allowed
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: or allowed her to exit the shoe? Thomas, me or
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: either me or Noelle. Question, okay, and is that the
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: same process? You would have to use a key to
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: open it. Thomas, you have to use a key to
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: open the inner door. Then you open the inner door,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: secure the inner door, and then you call the control
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: center to pop the outer door. Question. Okay. Thomas, exactly
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: what it's called. Question. And do you recall how long
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: she was in there? Thomas, I don't recall. Question. Okay.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: But she was the Thomas, operations lieutenant, supervisor. She was
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: the operations lieutenant, Mr. Thomas. Thomas, lieutenant. Question, which means
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: that she was the supervisor in the shoe on August
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: 10th from 12 a.m. until? Thomas, she was the, I
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: wouldn't say supervisor. Well, she was supervising the building on
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: August 10th, yes. Question, and with responsibilities for the shoe? Thomas,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: responsibilities for the shoe and responsibilities for the institution. Question,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: do you recall having any other conversation with Redacted during
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: your shift on August 10th, 2019? Thomas, no. Question, by
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: phone call or email or anything? Thomas, no. Question, and
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: did Redacted at any time ever provide you with special
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: instruction with regard to Epstein? Thomas, no. Question, and again,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: never told you that he was required to have a cellmate? Thomas, no. Question,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: it didn't come up, the fact that Reyes left the
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: day before and Epstein was without one? Thomas, no. Question,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: that was just not communicated? How about Lieutenant Redacted? Who
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: is that? Thomas, a lieutenant at MCC. Question was, did
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant Redacted replace Redacted at approximately 6 a.m.? Are you
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: able to tell from looking at this roster? Mr. Thomas, well,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: this one says he came in at 8 to 4
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: or something. He gets interrupted. Yeah, they were two hours earlier. Thomas, yeah,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: two hours, yeah. But yeah, I remember seeing him. Question, okay,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: do you recall having any interaction with Lieutenant Redacted prior
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: to 6.33 a.m. on August 10th, 2019? Thomas, no. Question,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: and did Lieutenant Redacted visit the SHU at all on
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: August 10th, 2019 prior to 6.33 a.m.? Thomas, no, not
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: that I remember. Question, okay, and no communications though? Thomas, no. Question,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: and Lieutenant Redacted didn't provide you with any special instruction
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: with regard to Epstein? Thomas, no. Question, and he did
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: not provide you any instruction with regard to Epstein having
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: a cellmate? Thomas, no. Question, at any time, even prior
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: to that? Thomas, no. Question, okay, did the control center,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: R & D, or anyone else call the shoe on
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: August 10th, 2019? About? He gets cut off by Thomas.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: That would be gone by the time I come in. Question,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: all of those people would have been gone? Thomas, yes. Question,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: in the control center? Thomas, no, not the control center.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: That would be there, but R & D would be gone. Redacted, alright,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: so let's say I did control center or anyone else.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Call the shoe on August 10th, 2019 about Epstein's cellmate leaving?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Or the need for Epstein to have another cellmate assigned? Thomas, no,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: that would have been done prior to my shift. Question, okay,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: but not during your shift. Thomas, not during the midnight. No,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that would have been done prior. All right, folks, we're
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here. And in the next
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: where we left off. All of the information that goes
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: with this episode can be found in the description box.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: where we left off with Michael Thomas and his interview
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: with With the OIG inspectors. Question. Alright so. Let's say
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I did control center. Or anyone else. Called a shoe.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: On August 10th 2019. About Epstein cellmate leaving. Or the
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: need for Epstein to have another cellmate assigned. Thomas. No.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: That would have been done prior to my shift. Question. Okay.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: But not during your shift. Thomas. Not during the midnight. No.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: That would have been done prior. And as you guys
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: can tell. This is a bit disjointed. And Thomas. Is
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: being very very coy. Thomas. Not during the midnight. No.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: That would have been done prior. Question. Alright. So being that.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: You've been in the BOP. Since 2017. Thomas 2007. Question.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Sorry 2007. That's what I meant. I apologize. In that
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Epstein was required to have a cellmate. After Reyes left.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: On August 9th. What should have happened. Who should have
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: taken appropriate action? Can you just kind of walk me
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: through how that process should have taken place? Thomas, I mean,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: by my knowledge, like you said, from being in for work?
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: If he would have left, it would have been communicated
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: to the officers via R & D that somebody had left. Question,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: and how would have R & D would have been
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: the first people to notify? Thomas, yes, R & D
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: would be. Yeah, R & D would be the first
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: people to notify. that an inmate has been released. Thomas,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: taken off count. Been released, taken off count. Question, okay.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: And then, who would R & D contact? Thomas, so
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: R & D would contact both control center and he
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: gets cut off. The lieutenant? Thomas, yeah. Question, would they
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: at all contact the shoe or the place where the
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: inmate was being released from? Thomas, yeah. Well, R &
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: D would contact shoe unless them know that somebody had
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: been released. Mr. Redacted, so in this case, Reyes was
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: released on August 9th. Should have they called all three?
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: They should call the control center or R & D
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: should have contacted looks like Lieutenant, redacted or potentially redacted,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: as well as control center and the SHU staff. Mr. Thomas,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: in a perfect world, R & D, we'll call lieutenant's office,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: call control, and call the SHU. I'm sure somebody had
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: to call the SHU and let them know that their
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: base count had changed. Question, okay. Thomas, one way or another,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: somebody called control to let them know that the base
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: count had changed. Who did they call? I don't know.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: But during that, because the courts close at 8. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: at the latest, yeah, I believe it's 8 p.m. So
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: somebody called and let them know R & D got
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the first call that there would be somebody gone off
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: your account. Question, okay, so it wouldn't be like they
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: called the ops lieutenant and the ops lieutenant would then
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: call the SHU. R & D typically would actually call
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: all three. Thomas, usually, but I have been when R
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: & D had called all three. I've been here when
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: the control center have called the SHU and let them know, yo,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: your base count has changed. Such and such has been released.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: or such a bunch, has been moved to a different
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: housing unit. Yeah. Question. Okay. Thomas, but usually you get
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: a call either from R & D or a control center. Question.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Not the Ops Lieutenant? Thomas, I mean, I've been in
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: when the Lieutenant called, but not, not typically the Ops Lieutenant. Question. Alright,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: so it's typically control center. Thomas, typically your control center
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: or R & D will call and let you know
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: that their base count have changed. Question. Question. And you've
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: been present when that's actually taken place? Thomas, yeah. I've
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: been present when that's taken place. Question in the shoe? Thomas, yeah.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: I've been present in the shoe when it's taken place. Question, okay,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: so how soon after, so Epstein is required to have
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: a cellmate, how soon after Reyes' departure should have Epstein
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: been assigned a cellmate? Thomas, well, that comes from the
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: shoe lieutenant and from operations and the staff member that
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: had to be there. Question, so who? Who had the
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: responsibility to fill Epstein's cellmate requirement? Who had the responsibility
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: to place Epstein with a new cellmate? Thomas, I don't
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: know offhand. I don't know offhand. Who had the responsibility,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: but it had to come from either the SHU lieutenant?
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I would say first, since he's a high profile, I
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: would say from the SHU lieutenant. Question, okay, and were you?
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: We touched on this before, but in this specific instance,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: were you there? Thomas, I wasn't there. Question. So would
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: have you, if you were there, would have been authorized
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: to assign him a new cellmate? Thomas, if I was
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: there and it came down from higher ups to assign somebody, yes.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: If I was there, yes. Question. So if somebody else
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: told you to? Thomas, yeah. If somebody told me, if
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the shoe lieutenant told me that, oh, listen, He needs
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: this and such like that, yeah. Just go like that
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: because he's high. I wouldn't just put somebody in his cell. Question, okay,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: what about shoe staff that weren't informed by higher-ups? Shoe
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: staff there, could have they assigned Epstein with a new cellmate,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: even temporarily? Thomas, could they have? Question, authorized? Thomas, were they? Question,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I meant that theoretically. They could have, as in like,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: you can do anything. Thomas, you can do anything you want.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: He gets cut off, but were they authorized to have?
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Thomas cuts him off, no. Not with a high profile, no.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: I don't think they're authorized. Question, okay. Thomas, I don't
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: know offhand, but I wouldn't say from my knowledge for being,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that they're authorized. It would have to
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: come from somebody else. Question, okay, so the people that
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: are working in the shoe, what action should have they
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: taken as soon as they were aware that Epstein's cellmate
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: had left? Thomas, what are we talking about? Question, so
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: if they're, you know, supposed to be conducting counts, supposed
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: to be conducting rounds, as soon as they notice, hey,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Reyes is gone. Epstein is required to have a cellmate.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Is it their responsibility to notify someone? Hey, get on
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the phone and call the ops lieutenant, control center, or whomever. Thomas,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: I would call. I would call somebody. Call somebody and
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: let them know. Operations, Epstein needs a cellmate. Question, right, so...
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: He gets cut off now by Thomas. Shoe lieutenant, if
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: he's there, Thomas, or excuse me, question. So the shoe lieutenant, Thomas,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: if the first person he gets cut off has gone
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: on leave, Thomas, if the shoe lieutenant has gone on leave,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: call the operations lieutenant. Question, okay, all right. Now we're
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit more about rounds and counts.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: So the cell count, what officially, what is that? Is
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: it obtaining the official number of inmates in the housing unit? Thomas, yeah. Question, okay,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: and can you just explain the process? You touched on
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: it before, but now can you actually explain like, so
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: when you're in the shoe, for instance, and your, he
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: gets cut off, what timeframe are we talking about? Question,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: so your timeframe, let's talk about when you're specifically there.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: You're there from 12 a.m. to 8 a.m., correct? Thomas, yes. Question,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: and you were there for both August 9th and August 10th?
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: When should you have been conducting the counts And how
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: should they have been conducted? Thomas, how it happens is
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: one officer goes up. You have the door key to
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: the grills, the outside grill. You open the outside grill.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: One officer walks around, count verified. Do one count, then
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: the other officer go around, count, and then you all
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: combine your numbers at the end. You combine your numbers
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: at the end of each tier. And then you tally
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: up the numbers at the end. Most people write them
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: down on a piece of paper, on your hand, back
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: of the count slip, It could be a number of
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: different various where people write them down. But one person
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: goes around count. The next person goes around count. You
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: all say, tell each other the number. I got 15.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I got 15. Boom. Then you move on to the
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: next tier. Do the same form for all six tiers.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: And then you tally up the numbers at the end. Question. Okay.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: So when one staff member is counting the inmates on
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: each tier, Thomas cuts them off. They're the ones standing
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: at the grill. Question, at the grill, and can you
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: just explain what the grill is? Thomas, it's just the door. Question,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: is the door closed or open? Thomas, um, typically it's closed,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: but some people leave it open. Question, okay, so one
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: person remains outside of the tier, basically at the door. Thomas,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: at the door with the key. Question, and then one
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: staff member goes around, checks on all the inmates. When
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: and how do they check the inmates? Thomas, they look
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: inside if it's covered. They look inside a window, look
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: inside of the glass. I can't tell you the diameter
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: of it, but you look inside the glass and you
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: see where the inmates are. Question. Now the 12 a.m.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Is there a count that's supposed to be done at
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: 12 a.m. and 3 a.m.? Thomas, 12, 3, and 5. Question.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: All a.m.? Thomas, all a.m., yes. Question. And during that time,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: when you look at the window of the door, what
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: is it you're supposed to see? Question. You verify flesh.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Make sure you can see somebody. See somebody's skin. Question.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Do you need to see movement? Thomas. No. Because they
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: could be asleep. Question. Does that mean you're supposed to
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: hit the door or anything? Make sure. Thomas. No. Gets interrupted.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: See if they're all good. Thomas. They're still human beings. No.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: They're asleep at 12 midnight. Some are up playing chess.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Some are writing letters. Some are asleep. You don't hit
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: the door to make sure they're moving. Question. Do you
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: shine a flashlight in? Thomas, some have a flashlight. You have.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: He gets cut off. No, do you? Thomas, yeah. I'll
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: have a flashlight and I'll just flash and see live
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: breathing skin. They could be under the blanket or anything
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: like that. Question, okay. And is the purpose to make?
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: What's the purpose? Thomas, to make sure nobody escaped and
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: see a body inside. Question, a live body? Question or answer?
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: We have a live body. Question, okay, a live body. Okay.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: And that is the process in the shoe, correct? Like
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: not only in the institution, but in the shoe. Thomas,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: that's the process in the institution. Question. Right, including the shoe. Thomas, yeah. Question, okay.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: And when conducting counts, do COs have to speak with inmates? Thomas,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: we don't have to. Question, no. Now explain to me
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: what's around. Question or answer, same process. Question, same. Thomas,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: same process. Question, so every 30 minutes. you actually have
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: to take a count as well. Thomas, no, you don't
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: have to take the count. The same process without the count.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: The counting of numbers. You just walk around and verify
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: somebody's inside. Mr. Redacted, just like you said with the count,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: each one has to go around and see if their
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: numbers match up. Thomas, no, you don't have to round
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: and see if the numbers match up. No, you just
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: verify that there's a body inside. Question, but does somebody
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: have to stand at the grill and other person walk
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: down And have to switch places and do the same thing? Thomas, yes.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Question both ways? Thomas, yes. Question, okay, so it's the
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: same process aside from? Thomas, aside from the count? Question, okay,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: so it's identical other than you're actually counting during the count. Thomas,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: the same, exactly what you just said. All right, folks,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: we're going to wrap up right here. And in the
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: next episode, dealing with the topic, we're going to pick
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: up where we left off. All of the information that
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: goes with this episode can be found in the description box.