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The Fifth Century BCE in Review · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr Rad. Dr G 0:33 And I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:55 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians I am, Dr G, and I'm joined by my long-going and fabulous co host: Dr Rad 1:07 Dr Rad. How you doing, Dr G? Dr G 1:10 I'm doing fabulously well. It's always a good day when I get to sit down with you. Dr Rad 1:14 I know, now look, you and I, we usually sit here and we hash out the narrative that is the history of Rome from the founding of the city. We look at different sources, we compare accounts. And to be honest, I think one thing that we are not particularly good on is like anniversaries and special episodes that sort of thing. We never really pay attention to how many episodes we pump out. And we don't really do episodes to celebrate how many years we've been doing this, but we felt that we had to pause and celebrate today. Slow going as our narrative is, Dr G 1:51 I think you mean thorough and detailed as our narrative is. Dr Rad 1:54 It is, it is. Thorough and detailed. So today is a special episode, because the last time we spoke, we hit a century. Dr G 2:05 Yeah, we're about to tip into a whole new world in terms of the numbers. Whether that means anything for the Romans is anybody's guess, but it certainly means something for us. So we're about to switch away from the fifth century BCE, and we thought to ourselves, let's just take a moment take stock of the situation. How far has Rome come in its first century as a republic? Dr Rad 2:36 Exactly. So today is the most gigantic partial recap. If that even makes sense that we've ever done. Dr G 2:44 I'm not even willing to call it a recap. It's going to be bigger than that. Dr Rad 2:49 Yeah, yeah, as we look at the fifth century. Dr G 2:54 Yeah, so we started talking about the Roman Republic, which officially started in 509, ish, so just at the very end of the sixth century, and that was in Episode 45 which was called 'The Last Gasp of the Regal Period'. And it was so long ago that it was in 2015. Dr Rad 3:17 Jesus Christ. Dr G 3:22 Are we going as slow as the Romans? Dr Rad 3:25 We're living it in real time, history unfolding before your very eyes. Dr G 3:30 A little bit of history repeating... Dr Rad 3:32 Exactly. Dr G 3:33 And it has taken us 108 episodes to get from that point in time to the end of the fifth century BCE, which legitimately means that we've got an episode for just about every year that the Republic has been in existence so far. Dr Rad 3:53 I was going to say that sounds astronomical, but when you think about it, should we be surprised? I mean, we do basically cover a year an episode. That's kind of our thing. Dr G 4:02 Well, that's true and but sometimes we cover two years because there's not much going on, and then sometimes so much is going on that we need to devote more than one episode to a single year. So this is, I think it's a nice sort of like marry up a parallel at this point, to be in a situation where we've got as many episodes as they've been years basically, yeah, I think the fifth century BCE, the evidence has been pretty thin on the ground, really. Dr Rad 4:35 And yet, somehow we fleshed it out into almost 10 years worth of podcasting. Dr G 4:39 Incredible, incredible stuff. I think, yeah, it's a high five for us. I'll put in a sound effect there. Dr Rad 4:45 Oh, definitely, yeah. So look, I have to say this as well. I think is something we needed to do because of the very nature of podcasting, particularly the way that you and I do it, whereas you say we do delve into the details, because when you're doing a podcasting. Show the big difference between doing this and, say, writing a book on the fifth century BCE is that if you were writing a book, you would obviously sit down, you would research the whole period at once. It might take you a few years to actually come to grips with all the material, do all your research, pull it together into the structure that you want, and then you write it, and then it's reviewed, etc, etc, right? Whereas with podcasting, it is quite different, because we are, we are looking very much at it unfolding in sort of real time, in that we're not reading ahead that far, if, if at all. Sometimes we are just looking at the year that that was, and we are, we are definitely doing our research into interesting things that pop up as we look at the accounts, but we're certainly not looking ahead. I think that's kind of actually the nice part of it. We're kind of as surprised as the Romans in that we're like, oh, wow, that happened. Wasn't expecting that. So that's why, I think looking back now and trying to take it all in what we've covered over the last almost 10 years is kind of important, because now we can kind of look back and say, right, well, now we know everything that happened. What do we think of this century? Dr G 6:10 Yeah, now that we've we've done every year conceivable that we could across this whole period of time, what can we take away from it? So this episode is more going to be like a discussion of some of the really big themes and events that occurred throughout this century, and just a sense of like, where we think things are at with Rome now that we've gotten to the end of this period and we're about to tip into a whole new century. So if people come to this podcast in many years hence, and they're like, I don't know where to start with the fifth century. Come to this episode first before you go right back and listen to all of the others. Dr Rad 6:50 You can, rebel, you. Rebel listeners, you can listen out of order. My God. Dr G 6:56 The horror. Dr Rad 6:57 The horror. I have to say, I actually enjoyed this century a lot more than I thought I would. And that's another reason why I think it's actually important to talk about it, because it it is a bit of a forgotten century. I feel, you know, people talk about skipped over, yes, yeah. People talk about that very, very early stuff where the Republic is founded, which is obviously so key, because people care so much about the Roman Republic, people like to talk about it a lot, but then I feel like people just zoom straight ahead to like the Punic Wars, or maybe the Samnite wars, or even, dare I say it, the fall of Veii. Spoilers! Dr G 7:37 Which still has not happened yet for us. Dr Rad 7:39 I know, I know, but they don't pay attention to the stuff that happens. And actually, I'm like, wow, this actually tells us so much about the way, the way that the Romans wrote their history, the way that they conceptualize themselves. I actually see this as being kind of foundational. Now I'm so glad that we did actually go through year by year. Dr G 7:58 Yeah, and I think there is a real pleasure in the slow reading of material that we've engaged in as well. So this is something that as a working historian, you sometimes don't get the luxury of doing just sitting with a text for a really long period of time and going through it really slowly. You want to be able to do that, but often what you're called to do in the profession is to dig into things quite quickly, come to grips with stuff really fast, and then find the key pieces that will really help you say the things that you're hoping to bring together to search for the hypothesis. And that really slow, close reading, and close rereading, is kind of fundamental to the pleasure of doing history, but it is also something that sometimes you don't get to do quite as much as you'd like to, like you might be prepping to teach, or you might be trying to finish off an article, and all those sorts of things are pressured deadlines, which means that slow reading engagement is something that you might have to build into your spare time, and we've been really fortunate to be able to do that within the context of producing a podcast together. Dr Rad 9:09 Completely agree, I tend to dip in an out of source material, if I'm writing an article or writing a book, and just finding the stuff that I absolutely have to read because there is a deadline looming, and I need to get through things as quickly as possible. So yeah, I think this is something that is unusual, and yet should be such a key part of what it is that historians do. Yeah, slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. All right. Dr, G, so you have very kindly put together a highlights reel for us here, which we're going to explore. So why don't you tell me what stood out to you, looking back on the fifth century BC as a defining theme. Dr G 9:48 I think one of the first things that I think is worthy of mention is that we have the introduction of the role of dictator. So this is something that fundamentally you can. Not have under a monarchy, it doesn't really work like that. The king's in charge. The king does all the things. They're both the spiritual leader and the military leader and the judicial person. Those functions really get split up and broken away and sort of hived off in different directions. As we head into the republic, people see the monarch as somebody who has way too much of various powers, and that needs to be dealt with. Having said that, though the early republic of Rome is a messy place, and they're trying to do something new with their government, and they're not really sure quite if it's working or not, and sometimes they do get themselves into a bit of a spot of bother. Sometimes that relates to their relationship with the gods, sometimes that relates to the military, sometimes that relates to judicial matters. And in times of real need, all of a sudden they're like, well, might be good to have one person really in charge and just in charge for a small amount of time. And this is where the idea of the dictator sort of comes into play. They've got various roles that they can fulfill, but the idea is that they definitely have to step down. It is a temporary position, and they must step down once they've fulfilled their mandate. So I think this is fundamental to the nature of the fifth century BCE, because Rome sort of harks back to the kings without necessarily returning to the kings at times. Dr Rad 11:33 Absolutely, I agree. I think that if you were to open a popular history of Rome. And there was anything on this period which a would shock me, but let's pretend that this is happening. It would very much tell you that in 509 BCE, the last king of Rome was expelled. The Romans vowed never to have kings again, and they introduced this new system, which was structured like this. One thing that you and I have really seen, whilst going into the details of this, is how much of a lie that is. Dr G 12:07 Can you imagine having a whole group of people just being like, we're not doing it that way anymore, and then having completely smooth transition into a unknown, completely new, shiny system that they've made up on the spot, basically, and it not having any issues whatsoever. It's just unrealistic. Dr Rad 12:28 Exactly. I mean, to be honest, I don't know why that actually even surprises us. Anybody who's been through a restructure of any company or institution that you work at. We all know it takes years, years to figure that kind of stuff out. It takes all sorts of HR management. It takes people having tantrums. It takes clashes, it takes complaints. It is a complicated process, and that is in the modern age. I don't know why we'd think that the ancient world would be so much more seamless. Dr G 13:00 It's certainly not seamless, and it doesn't take them very long to sort of hit a snag in this new republic of theirs. Dr Rad 13:08 No, no, it doesn't at all. Dr G 13:09 The first traditional dictator is a guy called Titus Larcius Flavus, and he's brought in in 498, BCE, so the Republic isn't even a decade old, no, so it's an issue. They're like, uh oh, we need somebody, and his job, basically, is to deal with the lingering supporters for the last king, Tarquinius Superbus, that man who doesn't want to die, doesn't want to go away, would still like to be king, really? Oh, yeah, and he does have factional support, so it's a bit like, look, any politician that you really don't like that just keeps returning and keeps trying to get themselves back into power. Tarquinius Superbus is your man. I'm sure I don't know what you mean. Dr, G. I'm not name dropping. I'm not going to date this podcast. Dr Rad 14:05 Yeah, it's 2024, where would we be seeing that kind of thing happening? Dr G 14:10 No idea. So they call up this Titus Larcius Flavus to deal with this situation. And in addition to that, there seems to be some broad issues with the Sabines, which are Rome's neighbors to the east, up in the hills. So there's unrest politically. You know, we've got some monarchical elements still at play. We've got the neighbors of Rome causing a bit of an issue. And so he gets out his lictors. He gets to have a lot of lictors. They get to have their fasces with the axes, which makes everybody a little bit perturbed. And Bob's your uncle. We've got our first dictator. Dr Rad 14:53 I know. And I kind of love the idea that, however, this system came together, the Romans eventually, basically. Had a built in band aid for their world, literally, a band aid solution. Dr G 15:08 Having a terrible time? Not sure what to do now? Quick, appoint somebody dictator! So there had to be an agreement about who the dictator would be. That was pretty important. And there is an outlying, even earlier contender to be the first dictator. Scholars tend to not be sure about this one, though, so he doesn't usually get the name this guy, Manlius Valerius Volsesi, was apparently a player in 501 BCE, but the sauces are pretty thin on the ground, so that one's usually dismissed. But then we have, like, some really stand out figures and the most famous dictator, and shout out to our fans in Cincinnati. This guy takes the cake in the fifth century, we have Cincinnatus as dictator, and he holds the role twice, which is phenomenal stuff. Dr Rad 16:09 Yeah, and that's on top of his other positions that he holds, not to mention his family's general domination of politics in the latter half of the fifth century BCE. Dr G 16:21 Yeah, they're a pretty phenomenal family, and he does not want to be dictator, for sure, he's busy, if I recall rightly, farming without his shirt on. When they come and find him. Dr Rad 16:33 Who could forget that scene? Dr G 16:36 I'd never forget a scene like that. And he was so good at the job and resolving the crisis at that point in time that about 30 years later, or maybe 20 years later, they called him up to be dictator again, by which time, he was a crotchety old man and even more grumpy than he was the first time. And he's like, are you sure you don't want to pick a younger man for this? He must have been in his 70s or 80s by that time, and he very reluctantly became dictator again. Dr Rad 17:09 But this is, I love Cincinnatus as something to talk about, because, as we've said before, but bears repeating now, because the fifth century BC is a little murky with source material. I think it's very much still one of those periods that the sources that we're mostly consulting, that were written later are looking back to for exemplars, and Cincinnatus, I'm sure probably did historically exist, that's not to say that he is a myth. However, I do think that his life the way that he conducts himself, it does become an exemplar that later Romans will reach back to as their perfect man, someone who's rural, rustic, embraces those traditional values of hard work and discipline and does not want to hold on to power. Because, as we've said many a time, this is the ultimate man. The dream man for the Romans is someone who is really good at exercising power but doesn't actually want it. Dr G 18:11 Oh yeah, you can, you can almost feel Cato the Elder loving this guy from a couple of centuries hence. That sense of being tied to the land is a very fundamental concept of the early, mid and even late republic, the idea that a true Roman is centered in the farm, somehow, in that rustic landscape, not in the urban environment where the politics is happening and yeah, Cincinnatus is ticking all of those reluctant leader boxes. Dr Rad 18:46 Absolutely. Um, do you mind if I get political for a moment? So I know that, I know this is going to put a timestamp on this episode, which is not ideal, but I can never resist it whilst, whilst, obviously, it's not exactly the same. I do think that there is also still something about maybe certain people these days where we are a little suspicious of anyone who's too keen to hold power, even in our own time. And whilst I certainly would not say that I approve or agree with everything Joe Biden did as President of the United States of America, there is something to be said for somebody who, okay, admittedly, after a lot of pressure, did at least step down when it was clear that him being in that position was no good for anyone anymore. It is not a perfect scenario in that there certainly had to be a gigantic amount of pressure put on him before he took that step. So I'm certainly not holding him up as a paragon of virtue in that respect, but there is something to be said for somebody who does at least eventually read the room and realize that it's time to go. Dr G 19:58 Wow. Dr Rad 19:59 Yeah, which is not something that can be said for everyone. Dr G 20:04 That is true, and we'll get to a couple of examples of people who do not know how to read the room in the fifth century BCE in this episode, for sure. Dr Rad 20:14 Anyway, all right, so the next thing is something that we have spent many hours of our lives talking about. So how could anyone forget? Not going to surprise our listeners here, but the Struggle of the Orders, Dr G. Dr G 20:26 And boy, is it a struggle. It just keeps on happening. Dr Rad 20:30 It definitely does. So certainly, the fifth century BCE is the time where we see the kickoff, something that will actually last for a couple of 100 of years, which is the patricians and the pabeans, these apparent classes that exist in ancient Rome and are consistently at loggerheads with each other. And it flares up and it dies down periodically. It depends what's happening, but it's always there lurking around the corner. I don't think we could probably go more than - ooh, I'm gonna say one or two years, really - without some mention of something happening between the patricians and the plebeians. Dr G 21:11 Yes. And I think the major issue that we've returned to many times and bears repeating is that the historicity of this conflict is really open to question. Who are the patricians? Who are the plebeians? It's not at all clear we don't have enough good, solid, independent evidence outside of our written source material that was produced much later to give us some insight into what is going on here. So it does make it really hard to know whether we're on firm ground with this. The idea that there would be social and political tensions in any state, particularly as it's starting to grow and expand, and particularly since they've just changed their system of government seems a reasonable assumption, and what shape that really took is kind of anybody's guess at that point. But this Struggle of the Orders, is it flares up in a number of ways across this century, and we'll get into more detail on that. It's a big deal, and it seems to be positioned very much in our source material as the elite faction within the social structure of Rome is very much trying to push its own agenda. And obviously they have the power and the platform to do that, and this leaves the people who are locked outside of that pretty frustrated a lot of the time. Dr Rad 22:43 Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think that's why it's been so appealing, actually, to look at it, particularly with the world scenarios that we face these days, the idea of powerful people managing to establish such a domination on the institutions that control everyone's lives and the frustration that comes with that, I think we can very much sympathize with that. I think that's been very clear in the way that we've talked about it. Dr G 23:14 Yes, yes, Dr Rad 23:16 Yeah, it's not that we don't know how things work, which sometimes seems to be the case in the conflict of the orders, like it sometimes seems like there is some sort of knowledge or oral tradition or training or something that is at stake here, where only certain people maybe are familiarized with that or know it really well, and that that may be part of the frustration. But even once that issue is somewhat resolved, it definitely is this frustration of like a lack of representation, a lack of access to certain parts of the state. So whilst we might not necessarily feel confident in who the patricians are, who the plebeians are, we certainly wouldn't want to suggest that there isn't some sort of power struggle happening in ancient Rome in the fifth century BCE. It might just be that the way that our later sources choose to explain it, it maybe reflects a little bit more of events closer to their own time than what was actually happening. And that's why it seems a bit dubious. But certainly they're probably very aware that there was some sort of power struggle going on within Rome, within certain factions. We just can't be certain who made up those factions, and sometimes it feels like that story is being projected onto maybe a fairly bare bones account. And so they're like, I can't quite make sense of this. I know it must have something to do with the Struggle of the Orders! Dr G 24:35 Guess what, guys? It's the struggle and fair enough. And this leads us into a couple of really big ticket events that take place in the fifth century, which is the first and the second plebeian secession, Dr Rad 24:49 Ah, yes. Dr G 24:49 where, this idea that the have nots get so completely frustrated with their inability to be able to. To produce something in this new republic that actually helps them, supports them in their difficult lives, that they decide it's easier to up sticks and go somewhere else and leave all of those elite, Fancy Pants patrician people to rule over each other in without the plebeians having to be involved. And it doesn't seem to take very long. So we talk about the way that we have the first dictator in about 498 and then only four years later in 494 so we're less than 20 years into the Republic. At this point, it seems that certain people have gotten so jack of this system that they're like, it's time to go somewhere else. Let's leave Rome. We've been here for a while. I don't want anything more to do with it. And so they leave what is the urban boundary of Rome, which is determined by the pomerium, and they go and head out to a place known as the Mons Sacer, "the sacred mount", sometimes also referred to as the Aventine. But they might be different places, and it's this moment where they seem to decide that they need their own representation as well. They need people to negotiate on their behalf, because the patricians aren't satisfied with this situation. They're like, what are you doing? Running away. We need you. We need you. And they're like, Well, you need to treat us better. So it's a bit like an abusive relationship. Dr Rad 26:30 It does feel that way. Dr G 26:32 It does feel that way. And what the plebeians do is they nominate a couple of people to represent their interests. So they kind of like, go for like, you can talk to our lawyers. Okay, don't talk to me. Talk to my lawyers. And these two people become the start of what will be known as the tribune of the plebs. Dr Rad 26:54 Very important. Dr G 26:54 Very important. Dr Rad 26:56 And this is really interesting as well, because we talked obviously about the dictator coming into play in this century, but this is obviously the century when we see the tribune of the plebs come into play, which remains a really important and unusual position in Rome's history for different reasons at different times. Obviously it shifts with with each century, but certainly it becomes a real bug bear in the quarrels between the patricians and the plebeians, because the patricians really regret ever giving into this. They're like, damn it. They really had me over a barrel, and I wish I'd never agreed to that. And they're constantly trying to think of ways to either undermine this office or actually get their hands on it so that they can presumably dominate that as well. Dr G 27:41 Kind of horrifying. Very like, Okay, you have representation, but how can we ruin that for you? So it doesn't interfere with our... Dr Rad 27:48 We should have never given you that representation! Dr G 27:50 I have regrets. Dr Rad 27:54 Regrets, I have a few. Dr G 27:58 A patrician refrain for the ages. Dr Rad 28:01 I was gonna say "My Way" seems a very fitting song for the patricians. I think that's kind of why the plebians are always so upset. Dr G 28:07 It does make an awful lot of sense. Dr Rad 28:09 Yeah. Dr G 28:09 So we have this situation where the in the first secession, the plebeians are convinced to return. It does take some negotiation. They're like, all right, but you know, we need to have this political representation. We need these tribune of the plebs. Now, all of this is kind of up for grabs in terms of the source material as well. We certainly are not sure about most things to do with this century, but these are the tales that our source material, like Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are suggesting, Dionysius of Halicarnassus are suggesting, and you have some smoothing over of all of this, but problems do bubble under the surface, and that's what the struggle of the orders is really suggesting, that this is an ongoing process of struggle between These groups, and it all comes to a head again in 449, BCE, which is the second plebeian secession, where everyone's like, just no, just no. And this is also a controversial situation as well, because at this stage, the republic is not smoothly functioning at all really. They're under the leadership of a group called the decemvirate so things have gotten a little bit out of hand, and this will tie into some other things as well as we get further into this. But essentially, people are interested in knowing exactly what the laws are in this place, and it seems like some people have been keeping the laws a bit secret. They haven't been written down properly. They're not in a public, accessible place, so you can't just go and find out what the laws are for yourself. Usually, what seems to happen is you try to do something. Thing as a citizen of Rome, somebody more powerful or important than you tells you that you're not allowed to do that, and in fact, you've broken the law, and you didn't even know that there was a law about that. So there's a real frustration coming through that, well, if this place has laws, surely everyone needs to know what they are, and this is where they decide to establish something like the decemvirate, which is a group of 10 men, and we'll get into more detail about them later, but they're supposed to be putting together a publicly accessible law record. So that'd be nice, but it's not going well. The plebeians decide they need to secede again. They run away. They head to the Aventine and to the Capitolione Hills. And this really forces another negotiation moment with the elite class. And so there's this whole situation again, where the patricians have to, sort of, you know, make some concessions. It's not ideal. They don't want to, but everybody's threatening to leave them. So they're like, Okay, maybe I need to talk to them. Dr Rad 31:08 It took quite a few diamond tennis bracelets and red roses to win them back. Dr G 31:12 Well, look, you know, some paid lunches would really be helpful right now. Dr Rad 31:17 But this is these two secessions are actually the perfect example of how we've got the this larger narrative being used to tie together events which may have been quite separate, because the first secession is really about debt, about the fact that with all the warfare happening on top of just the general inequality and hardship that is life in ancient Rome at that point in time, people are really struggling to hang on to what little they have, because they're constantly away fighting things fall into neglect. They fall into debt. It just becomes a vicious cycle where eventually they find themselves, you know, enslaved for debt in some cases, and they're not happy about that. The second secession comes about because of the law about the laws. As you said, people wanting things to be written down so that they don't, you know, find themselves, you know, someone running up to something going, oh, a black cat crossed your path on a Sunday. That'll be 10 sesterces. Not that that would happen. That's ridiculous in our every circumstances. But the law about the laws is the key to the decemvirate, so it's a totally different issue, on top of which it's also about the fact that the second decemvirate doesn't let go of their power, that is a trigger, and they're abusing their power. So it's also relating to those sorts of issues, so seemingly quite different reasons to secede if we do believe that the second secession happened, but they are, they are both tied together as being examples of this larger conflict of the orders. And maybe our sources are a bit wrong about that. Maybe there are just different points of political social tension in ancient Rome, and it just seems like there's a larger narrative going on here. Dr G 32:58 Yeah, perhaps this is a view from hindsight, as we can often talk about as historians. It's like you have to be really careful when thinking about any event in time and how it might be interconnected or not with the things that happen afterwards. You don't want to get ahead of yourself too much. I'm not sure that Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are necessarily as concerned about things like that. Dr Rad 33:25 But I have a feeling they're not. Dr G 33:27 That certainly adds some complexity to what we can know about this century. So we've talked about the introduction of the tribune of the plebs as being related in part to this Struggle of the Orders. And what we also see, or what is also suggested in our source material, is that although they start out with two representatives, this does expand over the course of the century, until we get to about 10 later on. So part of what makes the tribune of the plebs really special is the fact that their body is considered to be inviolable in the time that they're holding the role. And this means that in times of physical danger, citizens can run up to them and sort of hold on to the tribune, if you like, sort of seek physical protection, and because the tribune is considered to be inviolable, they are able to physically protect citizens. Now this seems like a really kind of specific thing, but if you think about what would life have been like in the early urban Roman state, where some people are allowed to carry sticks by permission and some people are not, you might think to yourself, well, sometimes you need to run away from the guys with the cudgels and find some safety with somebody who's designated as inviolable you cannot produce. Violence against them. So that's the thing. So I think when we think about Rome, obviously it comes to mind as this kind of like militaristic, powerful empire. But in this early period of history, we can start to see these really early, tangible signs of the kind of physical violence that's always at play in its political landscape, even amongst themselves. So the fact that to be a magistrate means you do get to have a bodyguard, and you can push people out of the way, and if things are going really badly, you can hit people suggest that this is a pretty rough and ready place, and having somebody who is able to offer physical protection to people who are outside of the elite becomes a really important force, and we seem to think that it develops in this century. Dr Rad 35:52 I have to say, thinking about the tribune of the playoffs at this moment in time, it does make ancient Rome sound like a gigantic game of cops and robbers, and robbers and the tribune of the plebs is the safe you know, like, when you used to play that game, when you were little, you'd be like, safe. I'm safe. Can't touch me. I'm safe. Dr G 36:08 Yup yup. I found the person. Tap it. Dr Rad 36:11 Yeah, but it does, as you say, it kind of highlights just how small scale all of this must have been violent, but small scale, because if you just have two guys who are the safe points. It wouldn't really work if Rome was gigantic. Dr G 36:25 Yeah, you would hope that it's a small place, because that doesn't seem like enough people to offer protection. Dr Rad 36:32 No, it does not. I also feel kind of bad for the tribunes. I feel like they would receive a lot of very sweaty, panicky hugs. Dr G 36:39 Wow. You know, Dr Rad 36:40 Tasty. Dr G 36:42 Thank you. Yes, I'll save you, just don't touch me. And the patricians aren't very happy about this. This would seem. Dr Rad 36:52 No. Dr G 36:53 It's a problem. They didn't really want to allow this. They had to. They were forced into this, and so they are often seeking to bring down the tribune of the plebs from within, it would seem, either through bribery, outright threats, or even worst of all, trying to co opt themselves into the roles so that they also are a tribune of the plebs and can whittle things away from the inside in that sense. So there is a sense in which the tribune of the plebs is always a little bit contentious and also a little bit exposed at all times to whatever the patricians are up to. Dr Rad 37:37 I do love that idea that the patricians are like, yeah. I mean, it's totally legit for me to represent plebeian interests and be attributed with the plebs as a patrician. Like, what's the problem, guys? Dr G 37:46 I'm interested in your best interests. I'm interested in all our best interests, Dr Rad 37:52 Conflicting interests? I don't know what you mean! The height of absurdity. So Dr, G, I believe if people want to go back and listen to our very first episode covering the tribune of the plebs, they have to go all the way back to Episode 59 which we called "Introducing the Tribune of the Plebs". Dr G 38:12 I'm glad we've got this very, very logical naming system. Easy to find what you're looking for, guys. Dr Rad 38:20 Indeed. Dr G 38:21 We talk about the children of the plebs a lot. Dr Rad 38:22 Yeah. Now, of course, it's not all internal drama by any means. In Rome in the fifth century, if anything, this is the century that Rome starts to really put itself on the map. I think I mean the Regal period, sure, but it's a little bit, you know, it's a little bit more mythical, dare I say legendary? It's a little hard to know what's going on in that time period. So there's certainly not a predominant power at any point in this century. They are not the Rome that gets made into glorious movies like Gladiator. Dr G 38:57 Certainly not. Dr Rad 38:58 But we do see some really interesting interactions with them and other major powers in Italy at this point in time. So we of course have the Etruscans to the north, very influential culture on Rome itself. There's a lot of interchange there, but also, you know, some conflict. And then we also have the Sabines to the east. They are major players in the fifth century, not quite as much, though, as the aequians and the volscians who are to the south and the Southeast. Oh, if I had $1 for every time I'd said the Aequians and the Volscians, Dr, G. Dr G 39:38 You would be able to retire right now. Dr Rad 39:40 I could be a podcaster full time. It'd be amazing. Let's set up that system. Dr G 39:45 Yes, I think so. So yeah, Rome is small. It is not predominant in its region necessarily. It seems to be engaging in back and forth conflict. With all of its neighbors. And the fifth century, within the broader terms of what we know about Italy itself, the whole the whole kit and caboodle from north to south, that whole peninsula across this century, it seems to be a century where nobody is really flourishing as much as they have done previously. Dr Rad 40:22 That is true, yeah. Dr G 40:23 So the Etruscans seem to have this really sort of thriving trading culture, and they have an influence that spreads all the way into Campania so south of Rome in the sixth century, and that seems to really be curtailed in the fifth century. So they start to lose their foothold in the south, and they start to expand a little bit more and flourish more in the north. So if you think about where the Po River is, they're doing quite well up there in the fifth century, but where Rome is in the center of Italy, the Etruscans aren't doing so well, and it's becoming that that's their lowest threshold, like the lowest point into Italy, that they are able to retain any control. They lose that influence in Campania. And so that's all happening. You've got the situation in Magna Graecia, where, again, the archeological record suggests that the trading has really slowed down, that you've got a lot of infighting between peoples who are from ancestral Greek colonist backgrounds with people from Italic backgrounds. So there starts to be some more internal fighting going on, and the trade network sort of falling away a little bit, and Rome sort of comes through in this era, but we don't see them flourishing in particular in this century, and they actually have a lot of trouble in certain moments. There's some good 10 year periods in this century where it seems like they're getting sort of hit by plague, or they're going back and forwards against the Volscians and the Aequians, but the next year they lose, and the next year they win, and they're just sort of fighting over the same bits of territory and the same bits of booty, and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. So Rome isn't preeminent by any means. They have a couple of friends in the region, but they also are struggling with a foothold, and we do get this sense that one of the ways that warfare operates in this century seems to be through the framework of the family. So the gens is a really important mechanism for military power, and the one that really stands out is the Fabian gens in this century, because they're nearly completely wiped out through their conflict with the Etruscan outpost of Cremera to the north in around about 477 BCE. So they have this huge problem where they lose almost every eligible man who could continue their patriarchal line in this moment. And so we get the sense that warfare isn't just about elite people trying to levy an army together, but it is about families determining what their interests are and where they might want to send their own personal war band. Dr Rad 43:28 And I think that this leads so much into the politics that we've just been talking about as well. I think with military power obviously being so crucial to Rome survival at this point in time, forget about thriving, just survival against all these other rival powers. With that military backbone being so crucial, it makes sense that we also see the genses being so crucial in political life as well, and certain families being more dominant than others, the networks, you know, the patron client relationships that kind of start to spring up. It's very futile when we look at it. And that's where I think the chaos comes from as well, because it is about whether these families, I think, actually have the ability to follow through in a military sense, not just a political sense. And that's why I think that there's a little bit more chaos to it than you might otherwise be led to believe where it's like, well, the republic was founded, and this is how it worked. And, you know, this is how it operated. Dr G 44:28 Yeah, so the sense that there is, like, this chaotic, familial element that is at the heart of Roman politics, I think, is a really useful idea to take away from the fifth century, because it is going to continue. We're going to see the rise of different gentes over time, and that's part and parcel of the way that Roman politics is centered in the extended family in really particular ways. So obviously you have an expanding range of magisterial positions that occur as we go through time in the fifth century. We're not entirely sure about how complex that structure is, but there's some and it's going to get more complex, but certainly we see patterns of families coming into these roles, and it seems to be the case that there is a sense of trust that if a family has held a position before, then they kind of have an experience that will be useful for the next person in their family who comes into that role. So families build reputations within this republican structure in a way that may have not been possible in a monarchical system, but we also see that warband element, so we can't forget the way that family is operating here, and maybe it is having more of an effect than we're really aware of. The Struggle of the Orders might be repositioned as something like struggles amongst gentes, for instance. Dr Rad 46:00 Yeah, definitely. And I think it also makes sense that if we look at the archeological record, and I know this is something we flagged in our detailed episodes, but it makes sense that this would be a century of strife and highs and lows. If we can see in the archeological record that most societies in Italy are struggling at this point in time. You know, there's even scholars who will write about this thing of the fifth century crisis. So we know that whenever humans are just natural, isn't it that if you're put in a difficult position, there's higher stress in terms of either the cost of your living or having access to certain resources that you need, it's only natural that you're going to be more aggressive, perhaps more ready to fight with other people and other groups. It just makes sense. That's why people are obviously. It's one of the many reasons why, in this day and age, in 2024 people are so concerned about the effect that climate change is going to have, because it is going to reduce our resources, and it is going to increase our cost of living. So it's all very well and good to hark back to good old days when none of this was a problem. But that's not a political problem, you know, you can, you can look back on, you know, things 20, 30, years ago and think, oh, wow, we had it really good back then. I'm going to, you know, think about the politics back then and try and return to that era. That's not what this is about environmental issues, which, you know, going back to that political party, isn't going to change. And so to me, it makes so much sense, because what we see in our own time period, I think, is emblematic of what they're going through. You know, it's just, it's just about pressure, stress, all those same sorts of things, human, behavior, I don't think changes that much in these sort of broader areas that we're looking at. Dr G 47:44 Yeah, and I think this is one of the keys to thinking about this state of lack of flourishing, if you like, it's environmental, and this has consequences for the culture. Dr Rad 47:57 Yeah. Dr G 47:57 You can see that playing out pretty clearly for the Romans in this period, like they are on struggle street, and there's various ways that they try to deal with that, one of which is this decemvirate that I flagged earlier. You know, it's tough. So by the mid fifth century, BCE, so 452, nobody seems to be particularly happy in Rome. Maybe it's to do with the dominance of certain elite folk. Maybe it's to do with the ongoing year on year wars that seem to be coming up and dragging on. But there does become a sense of concern around this idea that the laws are just not explicitly known, and a codification of them would be an important step. This pressure has been building for a while, and this eventually culminates in the creation of the "decemviri consulari imperio legibus scribundis", the 10 men with consular imperium for writing down the laws. Dr Rad 49:07 Romans really have to work on their catchy titles for things. Dr G 49:11 We can call them the decemvirs, I think that's easier. So they effectively replace the consulship for a short while. And I don't know. Dr Rad 49:19 Well, all magistracies, isn't it? Like, basically, there are no - I thought it was the case that they were like no magistracies apart from - and that's why it was such a big step, because they had to hand over everything to these guys. It wasn't it because there was, like, no place of appeal? Dr G 49:34 Yes. But also, do we have other magistrates? Dr Rad 49:38 Well, that's the question. Dr G 49:41 So I wasn't I was considering opening the thorny door of, do we even have consuls? But I'm gonna leave that mostly shut. Dr Rad 49:49 Don't rain on my parade of imaginary magistrates! Dr G 49:53 There are some people who used to be in charge in Rome, and now they have been replaced by these 10 men who have a singular job. Their job is to write down the laws, and that would be fine. You got to get the codification. You got to get it done. This is going to become the Twelve Tables, which is exciting, but the project takes way longer than anybody is expecting, and it's important that they're given consular imperium as well, because this means that if they need to take a break from the codification of the laws and go and fight a war instead, they have the legitimate authority to do that too. So things take longer than anybody thought they would. One wonders, if they're being delayed deliberately? Isn't it nice to be in power? Isn't it nice for you and nine of your buddies to be swatting about in charge of this place and not really have to give it up until you get the job done? But what if you do? Yeah, what if it takes your whole life to get that job done? So anyway, in 450 it's decided that there needs to be a second decemvirate. So the first one sort of dragged on a little bit too long, at least twice as long as expected, because they thought it would only take a year, but it's taken at least two and they're like, okay, we need to get a second group of these guys. And we really need to finish this task. And the second group is really the choice pick of a guy called Appius Claudius. So he stands out as the preeminent figure in this time period. He has enough charisma and enough tszuj that everyone's like, well, he should be in charge of that second decemvirate. So he handpicks it basically, and has all of his buddies brought in, and then they all start behaving badly, I think might be the nice way of putting it. Dr Rad 51:49 To the surprise of nobody who knows the Claudian family. Dr G 51:54 The Claudian family does have a reputation. Remember this, it is going to become important over and over again. Dr Rad 52:03 It will, it will different branches and yet. Dr G 52:06 And yet, yeah, they can't help themselves. He ends up ruining some innocent lives. And it's only after a supreme act of violation of Verginia, who is a plebeian woman that the Roman senate who standing off in the background, just a bunch of old men being like, yeah, I don't know if we should let him do this anymore. They finally are persuaded that the decemvirate needs to be dealt with. Dr Rad 52:38 And the murder of Dentatus. Dr G, everyone forgets the murder of Dentatus, "the man with teeth". Dr G 52:44 The murder of Dentatus is still etched in my soul, because I will never be over the grief. Let's make that clear. Dentatus did so much, and how was he repaid? Terribly. So eventually, the decemvriate is shut down, we get what we think is their work in the fragments that remain of the Twelve Tables. And it is a bonkers text. So it does seem like maybe the patricians were making up some laws because it's chaotic out there. Dr Rad 53:15 Yeah, but it's so fundamental, isn't it? It's such a big deal whenever a society gets to this point where they're like, right? We're codifying the laws, and we're going to write them down this time. Dr G 53:25 Once and for all, people will know what's going on. And boy, absolutely did you want to know less about fruit trees. Dr Rad 53:32 Well, that's just it. That what we have left of the Twelve Tables, we do have a bit, but it is still somewhat fragmentary, in spite of its immense importance, apparently, to Roman society. Dr G 53:42 Yeah, very fragmentary. A lot to do with understanding where the borders are between you and your neighbor's property, and the sorts of things that pertain to what is okay to do if you find something on the wrong side of the fence. And yes, exactly you know, can you drop down the branches? And it's like, sometimes you can. Dr Rad 54:03 And this is the Roman dream, Dr G, to have your own land. Which brings me to one of the other big themes of this century, apparently, the dream of agrarian reform. So along with the law about the laws, yeah, law about the laws, issues over debt. This is probably the completes, the trio, I think, of the top plebeian demands in the Struggle of the Orders. It's a little tricky to understand this, because if we look at what the sources say it is the fact that there is public land, the "ager publicus", apparently. Dr G 54:40 Apparently. Dr Rad 54:41 And it is not always being used in a fair manner. We think that, according to our sources, the elites are perhaps controlling it overly much, instead of it being held in common use for all the citizens. Now we've always struggled with this storyline, because it just seems so much like the issues that arise in the late republic and are super controversial at that time period. And this is involves, for those of you who know a little bit about Roman history, the famous Gracchi brothers, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus. They get swept up in these issues of land reform in the late republic. But it's just brought up so many times. Dr G 55:27 It is a huge issue, and it seems that Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are very fixated on it. It seems to be one of the pain points of the broader Struggle of the Orders, the idea that there is ager publicus - at this point in time - seems a little far fetched, I would suggest, if we think about the broader context of the fifth century in Italy is not a time of flourishing, it's a time of struggle, generally speaking, and Rome isn't expanding very much. Now they do make some acquisitions in the fifth century, little outposts here and there, but it is not at all clear that they are controlling vast tracts of land, no and even if they were controlling even small areas, they tend to lose them and then have to regain them back. It's not like they are secure holdings. And let's say, for instance, you took over a place in the fifth century, and you were Rome, and then the next year you lost it, and then the next year you gained it back. Do you gain it back in exactly the same way that you had it before? And what portion of that, if any, would be considered common use land? Goodness knows, it's madness to me. So I feel like this is something that is really hard to reconcile with just how unstable things appear to be. In the fifth century BCE, the Romans are very much struggling to hold targets that they acquire if they are expanding. It's not at all clear where that land would go or how it would be used, although sometimes there's mention of colonists being sent out. And, yeah, it does feel like we're really getting a later issue being sort of superimposed on this very first century of the republic, just to sort of give us a sense that this has always been on the cards for Rome and the stories that happen much later with the Gracchi are maybe justified to a certain extent that the idea has always been at play. Dr Rad 57:49 Yeah, and I think as well, if we brush aside the first century BCE curtain that might be covering these issues, maybe what is at stake here is that with all this warfare going on with Rome and its neighbors, maybe it is about the fair and just distribution of booty and access to resources that are being gained in whatever expeditions the Romans are carrying on. Maybe that's really what is at stake here, and for Livy and Dionysius living in the time period that they live in, that would be land, you know, that that would be a major issue, or maybe it reflects a paucity of land in this time period that people are struggling to survive. I can kind of see some connection, obviously, between that and the issues of debt that we've talked about and and there being a division between, obviously, people that have more and people that have less. It's not necessarily that that that you can put that directly on top of patricians for beings, but I can definitely understand that. It's a very old story, and one that we still obviously experience now, this division between people that have very much and people that have very little. Dr G 58:59 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think the dream of agrarian reform, it's there. How does it manifest? And I like your theory relating to like, is it about equitable distribution of the booty, the things that are taken in warfare, as much as it might be about - Dr Rad 59:18 Gotta divide up that ass! Dr G 59:22 Shake it, shake it Dr Rad 59:22 Sorry, it's been a while since I've done one of those jokes. Dr G 59:25 I always appreciate them, thinking also about like, how does it look when you're struggling to survive? And, yeah, this is one of the problems that Rome suffers from as well, is that it's like, this is not a hunky dory time to be a Roman. It is a time where there are plagues, there are ongoing, sort of rotating military campaigns that mean that you're losing people consistently, which is then affecting your ability to farm, affecting your ability to bring in a harvest, and, yeah, if you don't have enough land to subsist or produce a little bit of surplus, then obviously this is going to lead to real tensions. So perhaps you do want some agrarian reform. Dr Rad 1:00:16 Yeah, exactly. And I think that's that's something that, again, just to do the modern parallels, which I love to do, even though it completely time stamps out this episode. It is that idea that sometimes when people encounter things that cost a lot, like in terms of clothing or food, they get really outraged in Anglophone countries like Britain and Australia and America. And it's understandable, because you've been led to believe that these sorts of things should be cheap and plentiful, but actually, when you look at the amount of labor and work that goes into producing these resources, and how crucial they are to survival, if everyone in that supply chain and in that production is getting paid well enough, then actually, these things probably should cost a little more than what we've been led to believe. Doesn't mean it should. I'm not saying I agree with the cost of living crisis that is happening in many countries right now, but I think we've been led to believe that certain things should be cheap and that we should have huge amounts of disposable income, when actually, if you look at how people used to live in ancient Rome, a huge amount of whatever they were bringing in, not that would be cash, like for us, but whatever they were bringing in, it is labor intensive, and a lot of what they're trying to produce is just like basic enough clothes to keep them warm or cool, depending on the season, somewhere to live and enough food to survive. That's really what they're looking for here. Sure, everyone enjoys entertainment, everyone enjoys that extra stuff that you have. Obviously, there is like something inbuilt in us where there's competition and rivalry and we want to have more. But I think that comes from a self rival instinct, whereas these days, what it applies to obviously that more is becoming just so extravagant, the lifestyle that we expect with that more is just, it's insane when you look at what people are aspiring to have, and that's why it's just, it's yeah, just not reachable for most. Dr G 1:02:12 Yeah, for sure. And I think when we're thinking about Rome and how people are struggling in this century. It is perhaps even more, I don't want to say, laudable, that's the word that came to mind. But that's not the right word. Even more interesting. Stick with something really neutral. One of my favorite words interesting that they do field as many military forces as they do absolutely part of it is about survival, and part of it is trying to create that sort of protective barrier between yourself and the danger. So if you can have that buffer zone, it's strategic, military, you know, it's tactical. If you can do that, that's really useful, because that allows you to then relax a little bit in terms of being able to produce a little bit extra so that you can do that again. And that's kind of the struggle that Rome and all of her neighbors are in, is that they're all trying to gain just a little bit of security for themselves. That means that they've got enough surplus to do it again if they have to, because it's pretty clear that they will have to year on year. So I think this leads us very nicely into thinking about the way that this militarization and conflict throughout the region is really becoming more and more severe as the century goes on, because they have to develop this whole new political entity, the military tribune with consular power. Dr Rad 1:03:55 Such a wordy title. Dr G 1:03:57 It is a wordy title. And I don't know that they're I see people sort of like, you know, turning it into, like an abbreviation, the MTCP, and I'm like no! It's the military tribune with consular power. It is so you can't have a new political system without some teething issues. The dictator has been a bit of a solution. The tribune of the plebs a bit of a solution. And then we've got this idea that the major magistracies are these two consuls, this idea that there's a sharing of what used to be monarchical power between these two figures. But sometimes you've got even bigger issues, and one of the key facets of the consulship is this idea that they are legally, legitimately able to field military forces, which is great, because you could have two armies going in different directions led by two different people. But what if? What if, Dr Rad, you had more than two enemies that you needed to deal with in a particular year? Dr Rad 1:05:06 Which I think Rome often does. They managed to annoy a lot of people. It's impressive. Actually, it's laudable, you might say. Dr G 1:05:14 Let's say you're not great at making friends. And let's say you're better at making enemies. And let's say all your enemies decide to attack in the same year. Well, maybe you got a bit of a crisis on your hands, because you've got a situation now where you're like, well, if I had one big issue, I could bring in a dictator, but I've got four big issues that I need to deal with... Dr Rad 1:05:39 I got 99 problems. Dr G 1:05:42 Exactly. It's like, my problems are multiplying, and I just don't have the manpower. And all of a sudden, you're like, I need more people to be able to lead armies. This is where the military tribune with consular power comes in. And not only is it beneficial in terms of being able to have more armies in the field, although presumably they're smaller armies than if you had two big armies. But there is a sense in which it's a military tribune, which is kind of like a lower level position within the military structure. And this allows them to co-opt plebeians into this leadership role all of a sudden. Or that's the theory anyway. Dr Rad 1:06:27 That's the theory. Dr G 1:06:28 That's the theory. So sometimes we have four military tribunes with consular power. Sometimes we have six. It gets more chaotic as the century goes on, and theoretically, we're allowed to have some plebeians in there, but that really doesn't happen until we get right to the end of the fifth century BCE. Dr Rad 1:06:52 Which is, I think again, one of those interesting examples of potentially the narrative maybe overriding what was actually happening. So rather than saying, look, guys, I'm not going to lie to you, things were tough in this century. Whew, boy. We almost got snuffed out completely a few times, rather than potentially admitting that, it feels like whenever we talk about military tribunes with consular power, it's far more a political issue, where it's about who's going to hold the power, the ultimate power? Is it going to be a patrician? Is it going to be a plebeian? Constantly we are talking about this rivalry, about, Oh, what the what's the election going to be for the next year? Is it going to be a consular year, or is it going to be military tribunes with consular power? And it's never really connected to the fact that maybe it's because there is so much going on militarily, and then towards the end of the fifth century, BCE, rather than Rome sort of trading tit for tat with neighbors, which feels like what happens a lot of the time in the fifth century BCE, it seems like Rome is actually going a little bit more aggressively for expansion. And so it would make sense again, to have military tribunes with consular power if you were trying to be on the front foot more than you were on the back foot, or, you know, just responding to some sort of other conflict where it's being resolved militarily. So yeah, it's really weird that we very rarely see talk about this position, and how many there were of them in the sense of, well, Rome just has that many problems, guys. Dr G 1:08:26 So many problems. And we just need so many people to help us out. Dr Rad 1:08:30 Yeah. Dr G 1:08:31 And sometimes they do get sent to similar locations. So as we hit the end of the fifth century BCE, we are at the start of the siege of Veii and it does seem like there are moments where Rome sends a whole bunch of commanders to the same location, being like, alright, well, it's military tribunes of consular power this year. But that's the problem, and so that does feed into this idea that you've suggested that we're talking about something that is not just about the practicality of, can we field enough armies? Because we've got too many war fronts that we need to deal with to this is a political situation, and we certainly don't want some people sitting in that consulship this year. It's got to be a military tribunate instead, and the ins and outs of that are completely beyond our capacity to reckon with, with the source material that we've got. But it is fascinating. Dr Rad 1:09:32 It definitely is, and I feel very happy, at least, that we did manage to get a plebeian in just under the line. Dr G 1:09:39 Scraping in. Dr Rad 1:09:42 Yeah. Well, Dr, G, I think that that does definitely give people a bit of a highlight through looking back and seeing those tensions between the haves and have nots, whoever they may be, we're not. We're not going to make them fit in these labelled categories, we're too cool and hip for that. Dr G 1:10:02 I don't like, I don't like labels. Dr Rad 1:10:04 Yeah, don't like labels. And definitely the power of the families and that extended family structure being so important. So the gens being really at the heart of the political and military life of Rome at this point in time, and that perhaps explaining why there is this sense of chaos. It's just lurking beneath the order that Livy and Dionysius have given to the narratives. It seems so, seems like everything's so together. But really, you peek underneath it, it's not quite a set in stone, as they would have us. Dr G 1:10:38 Yeah, open that door. Have a look inside. Close it again. Be like Rome. It's chaos in there. Dr Rad 1:10:42 Yeah. Dr G 1:10:43 Rome certainly doesn't have a formal army in this century. Far from it. It is really a situation where they have to be called up every sort of campaign season. Dr Rad 1:10:55 Ah, the levy. Dr G 1:10:57 Yeah. So there is a levy every time, and so people have to sign up to be on campaign, which must take a reasonable amount of time. So that is interesting. People don't get paid. It's part of your civic duty, not something that you are getting an income from. And we start to see a little hint that potentially, there is payment offered to Roman military forces right at the end of the fifth century BCE. And again, it's related to the siege of Veii. Dr Rad 1:11:31 A little hint? You're calling Livy, talking about military pay multiple times, a little hint? Well, that's just shows how much do you value him, Dr G! Dr G 1:11:42 It's a very small hint. I would not be the first historian who has a small quibble with Livy on this point. Dr Rad 1:11:51 I know, I know. Dr G 1:11:54 The idea that you could run a siege, which has to run regardless of the season, rain, hail, shine, you're on siege. The idea that that would maybe necessitate or encourage some sort of monetary compensation from the elites does make some sense, because prior to having a long, protracted siege, warfare tends to be campaign season only. So do your levy in the early spring. You get out in the summer, you wrap it up before winter, because you've got to get home. So that whole situation in terms of like warfare being tied to the seasonal calendar might allow you to just sort of be like, it's a citizen duty to turn up and do the fighting, and it's like, and the weather is nice, and you're hanging out with your bros, and you're like, yeah, look, I've seen some traumatic things, but, you know, I had some fun as well. Dr Rad 1:12:53 It's summertime, and you know what that means? Dr G 1:12:56 It means I'm wearing my shorty shorts and I'm on the battlefield with my bros Dr Rad 1:13:01 Who wears short shorts? Actually, we should change that rewind, who wears short skirts? Dr G 1:13:10 I mean, it's beautiful out there. You know, there's a man hanging out with men writing letters home. Dear Marcia. Dr Rad 1:13:20 So the other thing that we definitely see throughout the fifth century BCE, not surprising, and again, something that modern listeners perhaps have greater understanding of now than they would have 10 years ago, is just how much illness can have an impact on a civilization. So we certainly see devastating outbreaks of plague. What exactly that illness is, when they say plague or pestilence, is anybody's guess, because, of course, we have very different understandings of medical matters in the modern time period to the ancient. But certainly the way that that could really bring Rome to its knees. And that, I think, also links into other disasters, like, you know, famine, infestations of, you know, insects, anything like that. Obviously can be really devastating for these sorts of civilizations. And I think we kind of started to feel like that wasn't the case again in very privileged countries. But Covid really showed us that that is not the case at all, that any civilization actually can be ground to a halt if the illness is serious enough, so. Dr G 1:14:30 Yeah, and I think the thing for Rome is, the sad benefit for Rome in all of this sort of stuff is that plagues - they're not interested in your borders. You know they will sweep through your neighbors, just as they will sweep through you. So you have a situation across the fifth century where Rome falls under the blight of some sort of plague and pestilence. But they're not the only ones, so it's not like their enemies. Can take advantage of the situation in any particular way, because they, too, are having a plague and all lying about being like just let it be over. I can't live like this anymore. Dr Rad 1:15:13 The odd time when they have tried to take advantage because they haven't been infected, usually they end up getting infected because they got too close to the Romans, exactly. So isolation, guys, it works. Dr G 1:15:24 I mean, if you don't have the plague, don't run at somebody who has the plague. Dr Rad 1:15:28 Yes, social distancing, it's a thing. Dr G 1:15:31 It works, guys, it works. Follow the science. Dr Rad 1:15:35 Yeah, and so, yeah. Basically, we've got the fifth century being really interesting, because it is a time of struggle. It's a time of conflict. Rome is trying to establish itself. It certainly is a power that's worthy of discussion at this time. You know, people are definitely taking note of it. People want to conquer it. People want to grind it into the dust under their sandaled heel. But it certainly isn't a major power that is winning every battle. I mean, I if I thought of it at the time, we really should have kept a scoreboard of how many times Rome wins and how many times it loses, because I feel like it would come out fairly evenly. Dr G 1:16:13 I feel like, yeah, for every victory there's definitely a loss. And you know, they're having this ongoing struggle with the Etruscans. The Volscians are a thorn in their sides, the Aequians and later on, the Faliscans. And they've got some friends as well. The Tusculans seem to be always on Rome's side. Dr Rad 1:16:32 Adorable Tusculans, yes. Dr G 1:16:34 Rome has made some friends. The Hernicians are their friends, which is cute, but yeah, it's it's it's bonkers out there. And they are not a regional leader at all. They're one of many competing for the same resources in the same very nice part of Central Italy. Dr Rad 1:16:54 Yeah. And I like to say thank you to everybody who's been with us throughout this past century and before, if you were with us for the Regal period as well, and also the period before that, when we were doing things much more randomly, kind of like the Romans. See, order develops with time. Dr G 1:17:09 Order from chaos. Dr Rad 1:17:12 That's right, that's how it happens. Now I should say, I know that I've been a little bit present just today, and I often am a bit presentist in the way that we talk about things, but I think that the reason why I like history so much Dr G is that by thinking through the experiences that the Romans had and the experiences that I've had myself, it actually kind of helps me to understand their scenario, even though I know it's not the same. I know you can't translate my life and put it into ancient Rome by any means, but in terms of the basic emotions that they were feeling, or the very, very broad experiences, I just feel like it gives me more empathy for what people were going through back then, and I also feel like it helps me to process what I'm going through right now as a person living on this planet. Dr G 1:17:57 Yeah, and I think there's a huge value to doing history as a way of understanding the self and for seeing certain parallels. Obviously, nothing is a one to one parallel. Everything is vastly different in all of its manifestations through time. But there are ways in which we can see the way that the Romans are sort of navigating their definition of self through the way the historians write about it much later. Dr Rad 1:18:23 Absolutely, yeah, they're doing the same thing, yeah. Dr G 1:18:26 And that process of coming to grips with the past as a way of coming to grips with yourself, I think, is one of the great pleasures of history. So any point in time in which you do history and practice history, the outcome will always be a little bit different, and that is because your present is always a little bit different from the present of somebody else. So yeah, returning to these things over time, you start to learn more about yourself, more about your own society, and it raises questions, not just about the past, but also about the here and now, which I think is fascinating. Dr Rad 1:19:00 Exactly. It makes it intelligible. I think history is at the end of a just good to think with. And there is no doubt in my mind that if I were plunked by a DeLorean, of course, into the fifth century BCE, I would probably die within a week, because I don't have the skills necessary. But if I think about the sorts of issues that the Romans are talking about and wrestling with, you know, those sort of core conversations and questions about power and how a society should function, and what our responsibility to each other is if we're living in form of society, I mean, it's all very understandable all of a sudden, even though I'm like, wow, your life is so foreign, I can be like, wow, actually, we're not that different. Dr G 1:19:46 So true. Dr Rad 1:19:48 So Dr, G, it's been such a delight spending so much time in the fifth century. BCE, with you, and I cannot wait to see what a new century has in store for us. Dr G 1:19:57 Did we just spend nearly a decade in the fifth century BCE? Dr Rad 1:20:02 I think we did. We're gonna have to live really long lives. Quick, take that magic potion! Dr G 1:20:08 I'm very excited to start exploring the fourth century BCE, with you, Dr Rad, and I look forward to the next time we chat. Dr Rad 1:20:15 Absolutely, we're certainly not gonna run out of material! Dr G 1:20:18 Oh, no! Transcribed by https://otter.ai