Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Si Hart about MY choice of The Twin Dilemma (1/4)

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Talks to Si Hart about MY choice of The Twin Dilemma (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:23
None. A hamster with a blump pen knife
0:35
for doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
0:40
I'm not having your Sluggy Eggs take over what was once a very
0:44
respectable podcast. Oh, and may your bones rot for
0:48
even suggesting that I'm gonna allowing a a paranoid
0:54
personality like you shut me up and it's depressive me.
1:03
You. You.
1:05
You can't. You hear yourself.
1:08
You're having another of your fits.
1:11
I do not have fits. Oh, what could we be talking
1:16
about? There's.
1:17
No clue. And welcome back to a Slug with
1:22
a blunt penknife. The Twin Dilemma commentary
1:25
podcast. That's right.
1:28
Did you know? So there is a Doctor Who podcast
1:30
called The Twin Dilemma. No, I didn't know that.
1:33
I mean, to be honest, there's probably a Doctor Who podcast
1:36
named after every story ever. That's that many.
1:39
That is very, very true. Well, I mean look at this one.
1:42
Jesus Christ, you know some some Doctor Who podcasts.
1:46
I feel like the the name is sort of speaker track one, you know?
1:50
That's Cloister Bell. Yeah.
1:52
Now all of time and space is it? And then what's that about?
1:59
And then you get some that are a bit cheeky.
2:01
You know? Doctor Who?
2:03
What? The flux.
2:07
Excellent punning. Yeah.
2:10
Why did I think of that one? Jesus, how are you today?
2:15
Well, I'm good. I'm good.
2:16
This is, you've chosen me a challenging story, which makes a
2:20
change usually. Where?
2:22
We're doing something to to celebrate and and love and I'm
2:26
not quite sure we're going to do that this time.
2:29
Well you might not we we we have talked about we've alluded to
2:34
the twin dilemma previously and the 6th Doctor when he came
2:39
along on television and your reaction to it and the sort of
2:43
reaction at the time. I'm really looking forward to
2:46
exploring that, especially because I think it's it's OK to
2:52
say that Colin has gone on to prove all of his detractors
2:57
wrong over the time in both sort of being an ambassador for the
3:01
show and just continuing to like deliver knockout performances
3:06
with Big Finish. Absolutely.
3:08
I know our Big Finish really revitalised the character.
3:12
They did so much work and all the work that.
3:15
We would have hoped that in his seven-year tenure on TV is going
3:20
to be the longest running doctor.
3:21
Whoever that would have would have happened over that time,
3:26
although with the production team in the state it was, I'm
3:31
not so sure any of that would actually have happened.
3:35
I think Colin would have softened his performance, but
3:37
I'm not sure Eric Saywood would have had the chops to do that,
3:41
or the enthusiasm to do that. My biggest What if is what if
3:47
Colin hadn't been fired and he'd had those three years with
3:51
Cartmail? There is.
3:53
There was a brilliant fanzine article in a fanzine called
3:58
Scaro back in the day which did exactly that with what what
4:05
Colin under Cartmail would have done over the next three years
4:08
and. It was magnificent.
4:10
It was really, really good. They talked about changing the
4:13
costume and what they might have dressed him up in.
4:15
They talked about how the stories would have been
4:17
different with Colin's Doctor and and working with Ace and all
4:22
of those things. And it's a really great, Oh my
4:25
God, this could have been so good.
4:27
You know that sequence in Remember Some of the Daleks in
4:29
the Cafe? Colin could have played that.
4:32
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, Colin's got that.
4:34
World weariness to his Doctor and we we see that in in things
4:38
like the two Doctors and the mysterious planet where he gets
4:40
those those moments of celestial sadness almost there.
4:44
He's the weight of the universe on his shoulders, Celestial
4:49
sadness. I know.
4:51
Well, that's good, wasn't it? That's not bad for a Monday
4:53
morning. I've been coaching phrases from
4:55
people for the last couple of years.
4:57
That's going to be my latest one.
4:59
And like, I won't sort of bang on about Big Finish too much
5:03
because like let's talk about the twin dilemma and let's talk
5:05
about this time in Doctor Who. But the opportunities afforded
5:11
to Colin and the opportunity to play the Doctor that he always
5:17
wanted to play, which was a softer, sort of funnier,
5:21
charming Doctor Who with a bit of a bite.
5:25
You know, I think what we get on telly, or especially in sort of
5:29
21 and 22, is an acidic Dr. with occasional moments of charm.
5:35
Like, yes and and some of this, I think is Eric Saywood's
5:41
approach to to character and drama, where he often feels that
5:49
drama is about people arguing with each other, whereas it's
5:52
not necessarily about character work and people sort of getting
5:56
on because you can have drama. And conflict out of people who
6:00
get on as well. But he automatically goes for
6:03
them arguing. So you can see it in those
6:05
scenes that he writes that are padding for Kinder, which is
6:08
just basically Tegan and Adric having a big argument in the
6:11
corridor. And there's all of this sort of
6:14
throughout the era that people are at loggerheads with each
6:18
other all the time, and there's not necessarily a warmth between
6:22
them. The actors are bringing the
6:23
warmth because they can play against the lines a lot of the
6:26
time, but they're still saddled with.
6:28
Arguing all the time and instead of sort of making this like we
6:35
go from Kate Evandrezani to the twin dilemma and it's an unfair
6:38
comparison that's always made because Kate Evandrezani is
6:41
potentially, you know, the best, classic Doctor Who story.
6:44
So anything that came after that was going to be trounced.
6:48
I think they weren't going to really best that, but to go from
6:52
such a heavily structured, plot heavy, sort of deliciously
6:57
character based story to an episode which is effectively 2
7:03
characters in one set rowing with each other, it's such a
7:08
stark contrast between the two. Yeah, and I'd I'd wonder often
7:12
if that's one of the things that works against this story is
7:17
coming after something that is so highly regarded and so.
7:22
Beautifully directed and so dynamic and incredible and it's
7:28
a nasty, horrible story but it's so well told that you can't help
7:32
but be tracked along with it. But coming after that anything
7:37
is going to pale into into comparison and I know there was
7:43
it was something of a smart move on JN TS part because season 20.
7:51
The end of season 20 had been such chaos and they've lost the
7:53
whole story. And his worry was that this
7:56
would happen again at the same time of year.
7:59
And so you'd lose the regeneration story, which would
8:02
be the most important story to get get completed, and that
8:05
would be cancelled. And then you've got the crisis
8:08
of having to drag Peter Davison back for another story at the
8:11
start of the next year and all of that.
8:13
And so that's sort of on his mind, as well as not leaving the
8:17
audience dangling. With a new Doctor that they
8:20
might not see for another sort of eight months or whatever,
8:23
because the show was only on for sort of three months of the
8:27
year, so sort of seven, 8-9 months, you know, before you see
8:31
the new Doctor. So in some ways he's making
8:35
smart decisions and that's that's sensible, but also he
8:41
then runs the risk of leaving the audience with a doctor that
8:46
they're not very sure of. And are they going to come back?
8:49
And as it turns out, they do come back.
8:52
And then more. Come back more.
8:54
Yeah, and there's another two and a half million turn up for
8:59
Attack part one, which gets nearly nearly 10 million
9:02
viewers. And then it plummets right down
9:07
right after that first initial episode.
9:09
Well, I will say, I think in terms of an average 22 scores
9:14
higher than 21. Yeah, so it does.
9:18
It loses viewers for sure, but yeah.
9:21
The the biweekly, because they keep moving the days each year,
9:25
they're trying out what what days will work for EastEnders.
9:29
Basically they're they're sort of shifting Doctor Who to test
9:32
this out in a lot of ways, as as well as sort of revitalizing
9:36
Doctor Who. But it's very interesting that
9:38
one day has very high ratings, the other day it really slips.
9:42
And it's the same throughout the season that the first day is
9:45
high, the second day is low, and it depends what it's up against
9:49
on ITV. And so, yeah, it the season is
9:54
is all over the place, whereas the static Saturdays you're more
9:57
likely to get a more consistent viewership.
10:00
I guess you can always tell what are the event stories because
10:04
like resurrection, I think the the the ratings go up or at
10:09
least hold. And I think the two doctors,
10:11
they gig head up and resurrect sorry revelation of the
10:15
dialects. They certainly improve from one
10:17
to two exactly. And always the dialects, Always.
10:20
Patrick Trout, you know. Yeah, exactly.
10:23
And and and resurrection was shown in 250 minute episodes,
10:27
which was. A really different way of of
10:30
seeing Doctor Who and television movie Doctor Who, you know.
10:34
Exactly. And it it felt epic.
10:36
At the time I I was there. I was eight.
10:38
It was amazing. It was the most incredible,
10:41
exciting story as an 8 year old that there had ever been.
10:45
It was full of drama. It was full of action and.
10:48
Yeah, didn't make any sense. But when you're 8, you get swept
10:51
along with it. Now I've got 2 commentaries for
10:53
that, neither one I've released yet, and both of them absolutely
10:57
have bullets to pieces. Just have to be pulled to
11:02
pieces, but at the time, no, it was topping poles at the time.
11:06
It was it Topped and Razzani, which again as a child, I felt
11:12
was a story that I didn't get as a child at all.
11:17
It was one that I'd kept on video because I had to choose
11:20
two stories before the season, before the season went out, so
11:24
that my mum could label the tape, so we knew what we were
11:26
keeping. And so you have to choose on on
11:30
on the synopsis, the little bits, you know, so resurrection,
11:32
the Daleks, obviously, because it's a Dalek story, they're
11:35
automatically going to be great. And Andrew Zani I kept because
11:39
it was a regeneration story and that they're automatically
11:42
brilliant as well. But Andrew Zani I didn't enjoy
11:46
as a kid. Because it was just horrible.
11:49
I'm not sure I enjoy it now. I mean, I don't makes it a lot,
11:52
absolutely. I love it to pieces but I don't
11:56
it's yeah it's not the Doctor Who that I love.
12:00
It's done so well and it is absolutely brilliant and but it
12:05
casts a long shadow over the next two years and they're like
12:09
with Earth Shop sort of two years previously that.
12:14
Constantly trying to replicate the success of that, but not
12:18
taking away the message that is success.
12:21
Why this works? And so you've got the trappings
12:24
of all these stories, but you haven't got the core, which is
12:29
the Doctor saves the life of his companion and he he is the one
12:35
great central figure, the lovely.
12:40
And he does something that's really fantastic for one person.
12:44
And I think that message gets lost weird enough.
12:47
What they're what they're trying to do now is in 21, I think the
12:52
universe got a lot darker. The body counts a lot higher.
12:56
And so it's almost like the War Doctor coming in because of the
12:59
Time War. Colin comes in and he's ready to
13:02
throw a punch and pick up a gun. And so we've suddenly got a
13:06
Doctor that's suited to this very.
13:10
Dark, Yeah. And then 22 is darker than 21.
13:15
But do you know, weirdly enough, I think Colin might be funnier
13:17
than Peter Davidson. Oh yeah, because Peter Davidson
13:19
wasn't allowed to be funny. Because JNT was still in that
13:24
mindset of the Graham Williams era, was awful because they they
13:28
made jokes. And so Davison was the
13:31
straightest Dr. Since poetry because he was reacting against
13:35
Tom, whereas now they can relax a little.
13:39
Because they're not coming after that.
13:41
And I think it's a it's a shame because Peter has such great
13:44
comedy chops. He is so good and you can sit
13:48
and like, Fraser says. When he gets to 21 and he's got
13:52
no more fucks to give and he can be flippant and he's got a
13:57
really good line in dark sarcasm, which is really, really
14:01
good, but he's not allowed to be funny.
14:03
Well, freshening though Colin comes in with that sort of
14:06
sardonic sarcasm, doesn't he? That, that yes.
14:10
Real acid wit and and there's an energy to him straight away
14:15
which I don't think was there at the beginning of Davidson's
14:17
time. I.
14:18
Think No, I don't think Peter Davison ever had Collins Energy.
14:22
We saw. Because they're very different.
14:24
Actors stretch our way in to the 5th Doctor's era, don't we?
14:28
Whereas we we explode our way into the Collin Baster era,
14:32
yeah? And some of that, I mean for for
14:34
Castro Valva is because the audience had had seven years of
14:41
Tom. And so you've got to sort of
14:44
gradually introduce your new Doctor to this new audience.
14:48
They're not coming in. They're expecting more of the
14:51
same. And so you've got a quiet story
14:54
to start him off. And I think Castro Valva is
14:58
magical and beautiful. And I wouldn't change a single
15:02
part of that story. I think that is a one of the
15:05
most beautiful opening stories for a doctor.
15:07
And I love that Davison is confused all the way through.
15:11
But once you've done that, you don't need to ever do that
15:15
again. And this isn't the next, next
15:18
mistakes that are made and we'll we'll be talking about this when
15:22
we do time and the Rani for the live hamster.
15:25
Because again, it's snakes. What are you talking about?
15:31
Because it's the the whole post regeneration amnesia thing.
15:36
They did it so thoroughly in Castro Valva that actually do
15:41
what you used to do and have a Doctor that's fully formed, just
15:44
a little bit more eccentric than than usual, and then calm him
15:47
down. But they go to town with it
15:50
here, and then they McCoy actually arrives fully formed.
15:55
And then is made to be amnesiac and do all of that.
15:58
So it's just I I want to before we go into it because I'm sure
16:04
you and I could keep talking about this is sort of your era,
16:07
isn't it? The 80s.
16:08
Oh, well, well, I was here. Yeah, I was absolutely in the
16:11
middle of this, and I knew you'd have wonderful things to say
16:14
about this. I don't think this was an
16:16
obvious choice when I threw it. At you?
16:17
No, no, no. But I think it's an interesting
16:19
choice. But I I before we go in, I want
16:23
to throw some praise on John Nathan Turner and people will
16:28
think I'm crazy doing that when we're about to watch The Twin
16:30
Dilemma. But I think it was an it was a
16:35
good move hiring Colin Baker. And I know, I know, because of
16:42
the characterization, perhaps because of the storytelling,
16:45
perhaps there was a push back against Colin.
16:50
But he's gone on to deliver just phenomenal performances
16:54
throughout his television run, throughout his big finish run.
16:58
Ultimately, Jonathan Turner chose a very strong, very vivid
17:04
actor to play Doctor Who. You know, and and and I stand by
17:08
that. Despite how this may have turned
17:10
out, I think he made a good call.
17:12
And I do also think it was a savvy move on Eric Sayward's
17:17
part. I don't often say this very
17:19
often to come in controversially and then had the time been
17:27
allowed to sort of run through and soften the character
17:31
gradually and do that whole Mr. Darcy thing that is is a good
17:36
idea in principle in execution. Colin only had 12 scripts or
17:42
something like that and so things had to.
17:46
Things moved very quickly in trial of a time, Bill, to make
17:48
him sweet and cuddly, nice and then he was gone.
17:52
And so it was all this sort of series of missed opportunities.
17:55
But I don't think what they are trying to do here was creatively
18:01
unsound. I just think that they didn't
18:06
pull off this story as adeptly as they should have done to to
18:12
give him that sort of opening punch to make this work.
18:18
It's it's very interesting to compare it to what they do with
18:23
Capaldi's Doctor and I think we've mentioned this before
18:26
because again creatively after a Doctor that has been sort of
18:32
seems very nice and straightforward and funny and
18:36
and lovely that you've got a complete contrast but.
18:42
The thing that no one ever takes into consideration is it's a
18:45
brilliant creative idea. But what are the non fans going
18:52
to think of this and why would you make your lead character
18:57
horrible? Why would anyone watch if you're
19:01
going to do that creatively? It's brilliant and there's so
19:04
many possibilities but. Are you taking your audience for
19:09
granted that they're going to come along for the ride and not
19:12
be put off by this? And I think in both cases
19:16
there's a big thing to say. The audience didn't like this
19:21
and so therefore, I'm not sure it's necessarily a very good
19:28
idea. That's fair.
19:31
Yeah, I think that's that's. I think as fans we we, we see
19:34
the wonderful potential in all of this.
19:36
And yeah, it's absolutely brilliant because we're fans,
19:39
but actually you've got to think outside of that and you've got
19:43
to carry on. You've got to keep your audience
19:46
there. And I think you run the risk of
19:49
losing your audience and they did both times.
19:52
It's very telling that the ratings went up for every
19:55
episode in case of Andrew Zani and went down for every episode
20:00
in. I mean I I don't know really how
20:04
much you should look at numbers for confirmation bias, but
20:09
that's certainly, you know I don't think you can question
20:13
that. No.
20:14
And it's. And it's such a shame because
20:16
they are two of the nicest people to play the Doctor, and
20:20
you only have to watch their interactions outside of the show
20:25
to see that these are two of the warmest and loveliest people to
20:29
ever be involved in the show. And yet you don't necessarily
20:32
get all of that on screen. There's a great bit in The Ark
20:38
of Infinity. Commentary where at the end of
20:41
episode 3, Peter Dixon says, oh, Colin, you're not in episode 4,
20:46
are you? He's like, no, you guys are
20:47
well, you don't get a lot of work.
20:49
Why don't you hang around? You can do episode four of us as
20:51
well. They've got that, such a bitch,
20:55
they've got that. Yeah, on the sly is such a
20:58
bitch. They've got that sort of banter
21:00
together. Yeah, they can rip at each
21:03
other. Well, look.
21:05
Should we go into episode one? Because I'm probably convinced
21:07
because we could be here for another hour and a half doing
21:10
this. We we could probably do the
21:11
length of our archive space as a preamble please.
21:16
Let's go into episode one and see what complete joy we can
21:20
extract from the twin dynamics. See what we can find.
21:26
All right, we'll count, isn't it?
21:27
Come on. OK then, in 54321 Bang that the
21:35
titles are brilliant and I can remember shouting to my mum who
21:39
was in the kitchen cooking dinner for my dad to say my God,
21:43
mum, the doctor smiled in the title sequence.
21:47
That was the most exciting thing because the face had always been
21:51
static, so to get that little bit of animation was hugely
21:54
exciting. You were as easily pleased as a
21:57
kid. Well, I was.
21:58
I was 8. But how quickly did it take for
22:03
your heart to sink then? Well, I don't remember my
22:07
because again, I was a mostly uncritical child because I
22:12
absolutely love Doctor Who and I don't think I felt, I certainly
22:15
didn't, don't don't remember saying anything bad about Doctor
22:18
Who until the start of Trial of a Time Lord when I just said
22:24
this is the worst theme music ever.
22:26
It's not the worst theme music ever, as it turns out, and I
22:28
really love it. But at the time it was such a
22:31
shock that I wasn't expecting that and I didn't didn't like
22:35
that change, don't like change. So I don't remember this being
22:39
any different to any other Doctor Who story at the time.
22:43
And that's important to remember because I was a child.
22:46
So you know, you don't. I don't think you notice these
22:50
things as a child at all. As a kid, you know, I don't
22:54
think I even reacted that badly so that I was trying to strangle
22:57
Perry. It was just something that
22:59
happened in a yeah. And again, I think with
23:03
hindsight, looking back, I don't remember having a bad reaction
23:08
to that until many years later when I've got more critical
23:12
faculties. And the interesting thing is
23:15
just before, I think on the day the first episode was on or the
23:19
day before, Colin was on Blue Peter and they did a lovely
23:23
interview him and Janet Ellis. And I've got that on tape.
23:26
I ain't a bit worried about the cat, is it?
23:28
Yeah, And it's lovely. And it showed all the
23:30
regenerations, which was really exciting because I hadn't seen
23:33
most of them at that point and just sort of to see that, but
23:38
they showed the clip of Colin strangling Perry on Blue Peter,
23:42
which is just really, what a bizarre thing to do.
23:47
TuneIn kids for the next slice of domestic abuse in Doctor Who.
23:52
And you think now? No, that's just why.
23:57
What a puzzling decision. But there's lots of puzzling
24:01
decisions. Well, I mean they they've gone
24:04
now. But we've got one Millis and
24:06
weemus here, the comrade brothers, and I've only got one
24:09
thing to say to you. Sigh.
24:11
What's that? Fraser is a fool, you know that?
24:15
Do you now wish me to respect fools you mean Fraser?
24:22
Oh, those boys. I mean, they should have found
24:25
some actors. I know JNT wanted a couple of
24:28
young boys about the set but they should have felt really OK
24:33
so Colin is here. Yes, he is.
24:37
He's in a dirty coat, He is. I want to say something
24:42
praiseworthy about Colin and Nicola in this story because I
24:45
think they have instant chemistry despite what the
24:49
scripts making them do. They've got great comic timing
24:53
and they do get a lot of sort of quick exchanges in this, Yeah,
24:57
yeah. And they play it very, very
24:58
well. Yeah, so like when he comes out
25:00
and goes, you know, TA dah and he goes, yuck, I.
25:06
Love all this stuff. So what do you think about his
25:09
expressed arrogance here then? I what's interesting and we we
25:17
touched on this already. Colin is playing this with such
25:20
energy and verve and he's coming in immediately full of energy
25:26
and he's he's seizing every chance to do whatever he can
25:33
with with the role. You have a noble brow, a clear
25:37
gaze. You have a face beaming with a
25:39
vast intelligence eye. My dear child, What on earth are
25:42
you complaining about? It's the most extraordinary
25:44
improvement. I find this bit very scary.
25:49
Yes. He suddenly starts going about
25:51
the crashing borders. Of the universe and this and
25:55
screaming. And then he laughs in a really
25:58
psychotic, really manic, isn't it?
25:59
It's, it's, he says. Yeah, he says on the on the the
26:08
commentary. It's like sort of being bipolar
26:13
and sort of manic depression that you've got the highs and
26:17
the lows and that that. I think that would be a far more
26:22
interesting and I think way of sort of exploring his Doctor and
26:28
his character. And I think you do get that that
26:30
again, as I said, you got the celestial sadness of him
26:33
underneath this ebullient and loud Doctor.
26:37
And there are layers. And if if we'd had someone in
26:41
charge who actually liked the Doctor and liked the actor
26:44
playing the Doctor, then I think maybe we could have seen more of
26:48
that. Because he swings between being
26:52
very sort of funny and bubbly and being very nasty and sort of
27:00
unpredictably violent. I actually think the 6th Doctor
27:04
here is far scarier than Capaldi was in series 8.
27:09
Capaldi is just a bit Moody, isn't he?
27:11
Yeah, it's sort of sitting around in the dark, talking
27:13
quietly. Yeah, but this doctor you're
27:18
instantly you have. There's nothing reassuring about
27:21
him really at all. And again, as a child, coming
27:25
from Peter Davison, who although was sarcastic and flippant and
27:31
always seemed nice underneath it all and generally he would look
27:37
after you you you fell. And even in Castro, Valve, you
27:40
get those moments of him where although he's confused and and
27:44
muddled, he's still heroic and he's still saves the TARDIS at
27:49
event one, he puts that plan into action and and things like
27:53
that, so. You know, I think I came to
27:56
Colin in a better direction than you because obviously I didn't
27:59
watch this when it went out. I first saw Colin in trial of a
28:03
Time Lord when that team came out.
28:05
So I binged all of that. And he gets so many lovely
28:09
moments in that. He's a he's a moral force and
28:12
he's funny and he's charming and he has great rapport with his
28:15
companions. And then I came to this later
28:19
and I was like, oh, OK, so that's how we get from there to
28:21
here. Yeah.
28:23
Whereas I was on the journey all the way through and you're just
28:26
not sure who the. Fuck is this asshole?
28:29
Yeah. And there was a lot of that.
28:32
I I've, I've alluded to this before that you know the he put
28:40
off a lot of children. I was I was in a class of
28:44
children and before this everyone watched Doctor Who and
28:47
after this people didn't and they alienated their core
28:53
audience that they need to keep with them.
28:55
And the costume really, really didn't help because no one took
29:00
him seriously because he's just a clown and it was a a bad move
29:06
and children can see through this stuff and you don't.
29:10
We don't often give them credit for this, but you can see
29:13
through. Whereas Peter's costume had be,
29:17
although it was it was quite beige and brilliant, it was
29:21
inoffensive. But Colin's costume was in your
29:25
in your face the whole time and I think people just didn't get
29:30
that. And certainly the people that
29:32
the children I knew, my friends just thought, well, why would
29:36
you watch something with clown? What's interesting about that
29:40
is, yeah, and I absolutely can understand because I was talking
29:43
on someone else's podcast the other day where he said, you
29:45
know, it was the costume. Everyone was ripping and saying
29:49
you take this psychotic Ronald McDonald seriously, you know,
29:53
you know how this this isn't, you know, this is a Buck Rogers
29:55
on the 26th. There's no lasers and there's
29:57
nothing cool with it. It just looks like a like a
29:59
clown. But now, weirdly enough, of the
30:03
two Davison and Colin Baker. This is the costume that sticks
30:07
out now. This is the one I see cosplayed
30:09
more, yeah. People love and and because and
30:14
I do think political events factor into this because pride
30:18
came along and as an expression of pride it was like the rainbow
30:22
colours. So now there's a gorgeous
30:24
cartoon out there I don't know if you've seen it of Colin 660.
30:29
It is coat with Perry going, Perry at last I found my people
30:33
and he's in a problem right and it's just and I think.
30:36
People kind of use that to express sort of pride now, which
30:41
is a wonderful thing. But obviously James, he didn't
30:44
know any of that. No, no, no, that wasn't wasn't
30:47
in the in the zeitgeist at the time.
30:49
It was just, it just was mocked because it's the show not taking
30:54
itself seriously and as a child that's that seemed quite
31:00
important It it was such a sea change.
31:03
Personally, I'd cosplay Peter Davison any day, particularly
31:07
the season 21 costume. Cosplay Colin.
31:09
Me, there we go. That's the difference between
31:12
us, Joe. I'm a loudmouth fug and you're
31:16
unassuming and lovely, and I'm I'm gentle with a darker side
31:21
that you don't often see. Yeah, the Davisons bitchiness.
31:26
Is there somewhere? I'm sure he he was my doctor, I
31:31
think. And I only realized this with
31:33
hindsight. I mean, Tom was always my my
31:36
doctor doctor. But Peter's doctor was so, so
31:41
much wrapped up in in those early, sort of formative years
31:46
that he's my reassuring Dr. that all his stories just feel right,
31:51
Even Terminus. I do feel that time has been
31:56
kind to the costumes of Colin and the 6th Doctor.
32:00
Like, like I'm I'm absolutely acknowledging these were bad
32:04
calls. You know, this was not what the
32:06
show needed at the time. Probably what the show needed
32:09
was something like, I don't know, Christmas invasion, an
32:12
alien invasion story, a good, strong, morally upright Dr., You
32:18
know, and a series that was taking itself seriously in a way
32:21
that's not this. Instead, what we got was the
32:26
Doctor about to throttle his companion?
32:30
Yeah, And is this your least favorite scene in the classic
32:34
series? Possibly.
32:37
Actually, It's just so misjudged.
32:42
And and again, I know we have, we've had that conversation,
32:47
haven't we? Which flight for entirety
32:49
started off? Why would you travel with with a
32:51
Doctor Who Who abuses you and or like Sarah Jane in season 12,
32:56
why would you ever get back in the TARDIS after you've been
32:59
through all of those things? And season eight?
33:03
What? Yeah, exactly.
33:04
Why would you put up with a with an abusive relationship like
33:08
that? And I can't fault any of this,
33:14
but it's scary and horrible because it's played so much for
33:18
real and. Nicholas should never be, Yes,
33:23
whatever you do, the Doctor should never, ever be attacking
33:28
his companion, and it's as misjudged as making Bill shoot
33:35
the Doctor later on. It's just horrible.
33:39
Why? Why?
33:41
We could have had a good idea. With a monstrous 6th Doctor
33:46
without him forcing her on the floor and then getting that.
33:50
That I think is the worst move. Like if those are against the
33:52
console, maybe that would have been enough.
33:55
No, no, no. He actually physically throws
33:57
her to the floor and then scraps and then puts his hands around
34:00
her. And it's again, Perry is always
34:04
the victim all the way through. She is victimized, she is
34:08
idolized. She is fetishized by the
34:12
scripts, by the aliens, by the production team, and it's
34:16
horrible. It's really poor decision
34:19
making. It's Nicola Bryant's credit that
34:23
she still manages to shine through.
34:26
Yeah, absolutely. Creative decisions and I think.
34:30
Weirdly enough when she's in situations of extreme peril, so
34:34
the beating Androsani, you know when the when she sees Cheryl
34:36
chicks, fake cowers under the thing or or that bit there where
34:41
she's really panicked, it's it's somewhat the best acting you're
34:46
going to see in the classes completely.
34:48
Yeah. I mean she is a really great
34:50
actress and she gets lots of good material to play sort of
34:54
all the way through this. But when you make something like
34:57
that played for real, it's it's really triggering.
35:03
It's it's it's not not good. You don't even know what a peer
35:08
is, do you? Sigh.
35:11
Well, I don't. Well, I do.
35:12
It's a it's a good and beautiful fairy from Persian mythology.
35:17
It goes, yeah. They become less dramatic and
35:20
less and less frequent. Are you kidding me right now?
35:24
You better bloody hope so. Otherwise we're not going to
35:26
watch anymore. But it's just yeah, I don't
35:30
know. Glitches away from him now as
35:32
well. I think we should ever be in a
35:34
situation where he goes to sort of touch her gently and and it
35:38
is like in a domestic relationship where you're scared
35:41
someone's going to pounce. Yeah and exact and that's and
35:44
that's it. It's that remorse off.
35:47
You've done something so absolutely horrible before.
35:52
You build up to the next horrible thing that you're going
35:54
to do to this person, and it's. What's weird is the reaction to
35:58
that is they try and do a comedy moment.
36:00
It's like I shall become a hermit instead of just going OK
36:06
Something is seriously wrong with this regeneration.
36:08
I mean, he's having this moment here of realisation that
36:13
something is not right, but then it, like you say, it's played
36:17
completely over the top afterwards and actually a moment
36:21
of absolute remorse and make this relationship better would
36:25
have been better placed I think, at this point.
36:29
I have. You noticed there he had sweat
36:30
on his brow as well, which again makes him seem very scary.
36:34
Then the camera sort of sways across to Perry as he's ranting
36:39
on about not going to fester 95. We're going to go to tight and
36:43
threaten all of this. And I remember watching this the
36:45
first time and going, my God, she is in the next.
36:48
She has no idea. No clue what her future is going
36:53
to hold. He's this unpredictable.
36:56
Anything could happen at this point.
36:57
I'll be saying, Get Me Out of here, you know, Take Me Home
37:01
right now. It's the ultimate example of why
37:05
the hell are you still going on this journey?
37:07
And actually the PDA Blue Box by Kate Orman.
37:11
Yes, yeah. She tackles that head on.
37:15
It's not too far after the twin dilemma they're in.
37:17
They've got a bit of a rapport going, but he's still an asshole
37:20
and she spends the whole book basically deciding whether she's
37:24
going to stay or go. It needed to happen on telly,
37:30
yeah. I mean, there's always a big
37:34
part of me that thinks, what if the the twin dilemma had not
37:40
happened and we start season 22 with Attack of the Cyberman and
37:47
we just have those first few scenes of him being a bit
37:50
confused, confusing his companions names, gets his new
37:55
costume and off we go. And that would have been so much
37:59
better than all of this. It would have and that's all you
38:02
needed. I do think sometimes focusing
38:05
too much on the regeneration and not on the story.
38:08
It's a, it's a. Shitty move, Spearhead and some
38:11
80s preoccupation. Spear and Space gets it right
38:14
where the docs for an episode and then we get on with the
38:16
plot. The woman who felt to Earth does
38:19
it brilliantly because she has a few moments of like, oh who am
38:22
I? Regeneration energy all about
38:24
bullet. But the plot is going all the
38:26
way through that, Yeah, exactly. And because you've done that
38:31
with David Tennant when he'd arrived in the Christmas
38:34
Invasion, where he'd been asleep for half the story.
38:36
Wait, and it's very Castro Valver like that.
38:38
You're waiting for the Doctor to turn up fully formed at the end
38:41
and get his hero moment, which they both do.
38:45
But it's that because you're trying to reassure the audience
38:49
after a very popular Doctor and art, and particularly for a new
38:52
audience who haven't experienced regeneration, that you want to
38:55
see what these, what the side effects are on the characters
38:58
you're doing. That he judged that perfectly.
39:00
The Christmas, Yeah, absolutely. And that was a very, very smart
39:03
decision. Pulling the rug and then giving,
39:06
and then that massive silence for however and then giving him
39:08
the hero moment at the end. Superb, yeah.
39:11
Psy, are you receiving me? No, I've got static buzzing.
39:19
So that is a direct order from the minister and I'm the the the
39:27
Fabian. The police officer is back after
39:31
being the only woman heard in the deadly assassin.
39:35
Oh, is that her? Yeah, that's her.
39:37
Who? Who?
39:38
Helen Blatch? Who was the the, the, the voice
39:42
of the Time Lord records? Who was the only woman in the
39:44
whole story for two lines? Myself fortunate, you know, to
39:48
have done Planet of the Spiders with Jenny Laird and now Twin
39:53
Dilemma with Helen Blatch, 2 of the greatest female performances
39:58
in Please stay the line. Come on I said it.
40:02
I. Made my bones rot for obeying
40:06
them. And how cheap does that police
40:11
set look? Oh, this is a very, very cheap
40:15
story. I know although I've got
40:18
something to say about that, but I think I might save it for two,
40:20
you know, OK I there are are some very, very good things and
40:26
I will will point those out as we see them.
40:28
Because you have been chosen. Sigh.
40:31
It should be your humble privilege to administer to my
40:34
needs, well, more hamsters than anyone else.
40:41
So what more do you want? Remember when he said the
40:44
crushing borders of eternity? Yeah.
40:48
I've seen people look at my 600 episodes of Hamster, you know,
40:51
and and say lines like that. Oh dear, Can I ask you about
41:01
your craggy knob? People are always.
41:07
Because, you know you're not as young as you used to be, Morris
41:13
getting a bit cracky, actually. Do you know we haven't even
41:19
talked about Morris Denham yet? No.
41:22
Well, there's going to be plenty more opportunity to talk about
41:24
Morris Denham. I think there are bigger things
41:26
to unpack in this episode. In the in the commentary, Kevin
41:31
McNally, by the way. Guys, if you don't like the Twin
41:34
11, really great. It's so charming and so funny,
41:37
Kevin McNally goes, My God, those sofas are so new they
41:40
haven't even taken the shrink wrap off.
41:43
And Colin's like, Oh yeah, there's still foil all over the
41:46
consoles, too. Look, unpack, unpack your room
41:49
as mail. Come on.
41:50
Yeah. No, those panels are back in the
41:53
very next story. They're in cyber control.
41:56
They've taken the tack on the Cybermen, and they've taken the
41:58
foil off so that apparently they were originally designed for
42:01
four to doomsday for the big set in there, and were reused
42:07
extensively around this time. So here's my store.
42:12
Yep, A superlative performance from Richfield.
42:16
I know. Yeah, Captain Hart himself from
42:19
the Sea Devils. I can't quite see Captain Hart,
42:22
you know. No, But again, it's Peter
42:26
Moffatt being being smart because he knows that this is a
42:29
character that's under a mask. So it's got to be someone with a
42:33
really good voice. And actually the voice is great
42:37
and Edwin Richfield is very good.
42:40
It's just again, it's the mask is not quite up to it.
42:46
They've done better masks than this already, yeah.
42:49
Perileptal masks, for example, even the, even.
42:53
The the Gravis. Yeah, the Gravis.
42:58
It would have been better. I mean it would.
43:00
We still would have had those limp.
43:01
There's lots of flapping limbs this year.
43:05
But they're melting faces. Well, yeah.
43:08
Think of the Silurian masks in Warriors of the Deep, which are
43:11
actually really great masks. There's just overlit, so you get
43:15
to see too much that it's a costume.
43:18
But the masks themselves are fantastic.
43:20
I want to get into the. The gastropods as we go through
43:25
this story, All right, because I feel like there's potential
43:27
there, but he's just entirely squandered that visual there.
43:31
I'm not going to say very nice things about the visuals in this
43:32
story, that visual there of the wreckage, the flames going
43:35
crazy, that's really great performance as well.
43:39
And the sort of the colours of his costume contrasting against
43:41
all of that, that sort of dream. Yeah, because I get you've got a
43:44
plain background, so he is centre of attention.
43:47
He pops, yes. It it's that's a really, really
43:52
good bit of location work that like well, well actually all the
43:55
location work, what little there is, is really, really good.
43:59
But the flame and the wreckage felt great at the time.
44:03
Oh. My God, Kevin McNally is hot as
44:08
fuck in this story. He is.
44:10
He's one of the hottest people to meet Doctor Whoever.
44:14
Apparently, he said he wanted a Harrison Ford haircut.
44:17
That's what he said to the He goes.
44:19
So what? What?
44:20
Why don't they give me one later on, right?
44:24
He takes off, he gets a crazy sort of tinfoil costume, and
44:28
then boy goes like, fuck this. I'm not wearing that.
44:31
And so he's just wearing, he's doing to me.
44:32
He's wearing a black T-shirt with the braces.
44:36
Oh my God. And Harry's costume and the
44:44
costume in this costuming, and this is all over the place.
44:48
And Perry's costume was hacked to bits before she went on.
44:52
When JNT saw it was a long skirt and a full top and he made the
44:59
costume designer take the skirt down and put the V in in the
45:04
top. It's just.
45:07
So that is a good example of how things have changed.
45:09
You would not get away with that.
45:10
Now you can go onto a stare and start tearing bits of clothes
45:14
off a woman and say right, no tits, more exposed, you know,
45:17
like, yeah, exactly. And some of the decisions are
45:22
very much of their time. It's it's yeah, it's it's a
45:26
weird mix when. Nicola does cover up because I
45:29
think her best costume is Revelation of the Daleks, which
45:33
the Time Lash Revelation costume is great.
45:36
She looks gorgeous. Yeah, she looks absurd when they
45:39
put her in a leotard. Yeah, it's it's not a great
45:43
look, as she said she, an American student, should have
45:46
been. Jeans and a sweatshirt,
45:48
something like that. A sweatshirt tied her over the
45:51
the shoulders or or whatever. And you know, what's really,
45:54
really sad, and we should probably talk about this some
45:56
more as well, is that she has some solid ideas.
45:58
She wrote a back story for Perry.
46:00
She wanted to have Americanisms in the dialogue.
46:03
You know, she had a certain look in mind if she's just been given
46:07
a little autonomy. I think some of the stiffness
46:11
that you get occasionally from it, and I think it's just with
46:14
these weird decisions that JNT is voicing on it because he's
46:17
got a particular image of the girl.
46:20
Being the sex symbol of the show and drawing in the bats, it's a
46:25
shame. It's a shame because I think she
46:27
she could have been one of the the most memorable companions,
46:31
because she's certainly got the talent, absolutely.
46:34
And she's saddled being an American for two years, you
46:39
know, but what? In her personal life as well.
46:44
And how controlling is that? I mean, you see the Matthew
46:48
Sweets interview with her on the season 22 box set, and it's just
46:54
wow. I mean that level of control
46:59
over someone's personal life from being an actor.
47:03
It's it's yeah, it There's no duty of care to your to your
47:10
actors here. Oh, that interview is when
47:14
they're talking about the panto. And JNT says no, you will be
47:17
doing the panto. And she's like, no, I don't want
47:19
to do the panto. And then he took her.
47:21
I mean, she's probably quite grateful now.
47:24
He took her off the gym will fix it, didn't he?
47:26
And brought in Janet Fielding as a punishment.
47:30
Punishment. Yeah.
47:31
For not doing as she's told. And then she did it anyway,
47:34
didn't she? Yeah, yeah, she was.
47:38
It's like given the. Interesting dynamics going on
47:41
there. And what's truly sad.
47:43
And you know what? This is quite an ugly episode.
47:45
So let's let's get the ugly anecdotes out of The way is that
47:50
her relationship with JNT ends in a convention, with a
47:53
misunderstanding provoked by that rat bag Gary Downey that
47:59
caused JNT to spit in her face. All right, how does anything
48:05
come to that? I mean it.
48:07
That's no way to behave anyway, let alone to someone you worked
48:12
with successfully. For I was and was a friend.
48:16
I was Hocking up a couple of times when Fraser was
48:19
complimenting time with the Doctor.
48:21
But apart from that, you know, some things can be provoking,
48:26
yeah, but you know, it's all part of the this.
48:32
I I know that's years later. But there is such a complacency
48:38
with making Doctor Who at this point that the series will just
48:41
go on forever and we can do what we like and we don't have to put
48:45
much effort in. And I think, say Woods and JNT
48:50
were not good for each other. I think that's that's very
48:54
evident they were. Don't they?
48:56
They don't both acknowledge that, which is weird because
49:00
when it marries well. It's some of the best docs who
49:03
we've seen. Enlightenment.
49:04
Snake Dance of shock, you know, Revelation of the Alex.
49:11
Yeah. You've got a script editor who
49:15
doesn't like the leading man. So does everything he can to
49:18
sabotage him for the next year and a half or whatever.
49:23
And how? How did that happen?
49:25
How did that get to there? How did we get to a show that
49:30
doesn't like it's Doctor? How did JNT not realise?
49:34
Look at those scripts and say you're not giving him the
49:36
opportunities he should have. I.
49:40
Think I think it takes some of the the writers in 22, Philip
49:43
Martin does it well, and Robert Holmes, certainly they're like,
49:48
right. This is our new Doctor.
49:49
We're going to give him showboating moments.
49:51
And they do, you know, Yeah, Jane, obviously love him.
49:57
Love him to bits. We love R Colin.
50:01
Yep, You know, But when you've got an episode that's got to be
50:05
have your leading man sidelined so that he can do a panto.
50:13
What I mean when when the things outside are impacting on the
50:18
show, I mean I was looking at the the first episode with the
50:21
production notes earlier on and between the first and second
50:25
block of this story, which is a week or whatever.
50:30
Colin and Nicola were tracked to the States to do a convention,
50:33
which is while they're working and they should be at home
50:37
working on their on their scripts and performances and
50:40
learning all of this. But again, J&T had this thing
50:48
about the conventions and the publicity and all of that, and I
50:50
think that often works the detriment of the show because
50:54
this is all happening while they're making it.
50:56
Oh, this is. I think this is truly the era
50:58
where fan ownership landed, and I think it's because J&T opened
51:04
that door to to the Yeah, he let it open because he loved the.
51:08
Adoration. Suddenly fans were in impacting
51:12
the production. And so ever since then, I don't
51:15
think that that ever quite went away.
51:17
Jane really. Another.
51:19
Another. Weird move JNT made was to
51:23
inject himself into the show, so we'll go back to costume.
51:27
Everyone says this is that basically Peter Davison always
51:31
says, doesn't he, that casting Colin Baker is like casting
51:35
himself. I don't think he's wrong.
51:37
Is is a sort of light? Big flamboyant costume colours.
51:42
Cloud. Cloud brash?
51:44
Patrolling, A bit scary. And in the Doctor Who equivalent
51:50
of a Hawaiian shirt, yeah, it's yeah, it feels completely
51:58
obvious. I think it says something about
52:00
the talent of Colin that. Amongst all of that huge J&T
52:06
mask that he's wearing that he manages to shine, Yeah, but on
52:11
as many he does. But you know, going back to
52:16
where we started, the what ifs, what if, the producer said,
52:21
right, what do you want to do? What do you want to wear?
52:24
How shall we play? Common had really good ideas
52:27
about what he wanted to wear, and like David Tennant, he wants
52:32
to wear a modern suit in dark colours or something, maybe in
52:36
dark velvet. And how much better would he
52:40
have would it have been for the show?
52:44
Can I can I then end episode one?
52:47
Because we've got to end it eventually, because we've got
52:49
next episode 2. We've been going over an hour
52:54
with a recommendation. OK.
52:57
I think. The ultimate extreme in the
53:02
other direction, Introduction to the 6th Doctor and I I don't
53:08
need the regeneration. Fine.
53:09
Having regenerate at the end of Andrew Zani, Whatever is the
53:13
Marion conspiracy? In Big Finish, where he's
53:18
companionless at the beginning and he just enters that lecture
53:21
hall with his bleeping device and irritates the shit out of
53:25
Evelyn Smythe straightaway. But unlike Perry, she's savvy
53:28
enough and, you know, in his face enough to say, yeah, shut
53:32
up you, you know you ain't getting him out on it, yeah.
53:36
And he gets to be like funny and he gets to be warm and he gets
53:41
to build relationships with people.
53:42
He goes back into the past. He gets great.
53:46
He loved that story. I'm absolutely AI, remember,
53:51
because bizarrely, like all Doctor Who fans, you can
53:54
remember where where things happened.
53:55
And I remember buying that in the old Forbidden Planet in
53:58
London and then walking down Oxford Street with that on my
54:01
Diskman because I'm, I was a late 90s kids, you know, and
54:06
listening to that and just thinking, wow, I want to get
54:09
home actually and listen to the rest because this is something
54:11
special and this is not to be. This is not a walking around
54:14
London story. This is something I just need to
54:17
sit down and enjoy because something magical is happening
54:20
here. And Evelyn Smythe is the
54:23
companion he needed. She is my favorite big Finnish
54:27
companion of all the the companions they've they've ever
54:31
done. She's just my favorite
54:33
companion, you know? And she loves chocolate cake.
54:36
I mean that's that's a good start.
54:38
And she's, her and Colin just instantly are in love with each
54:43
other. It's wonderful.
54:45
Jacqueline Rayner basically said they did it all wrong.
54:49
This is how they could have done it.
54:50
And imagine if this had hit the screen after, you know,
54:55
something like this and it would have been gold, wasn't it?
54:59
Yes, fortunately. We got the twin dilemma.
55:03
We did. And so we'll be back for Episode
55:05
2 next time. Coming up there, this was going
55:11
to be a good one to talk.