Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Smart Ways to Use Your Money After Divorce - with Marion Mays

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Smart Ways to Use Your Money After Divorce - with Marion Mays · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, the podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartnell, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: In soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the World Tree people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm thrilled to welcome Marion Mays to the podcast.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Marion is a behavioural money coach helping women develop their money IQ and EQ.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: She is founder of financial literacy firm Thalia Stanley Group and a property mentor for women.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: She's also a longtime property enthusiast and, as I said, the founder of Property for Women, but she describes her most important role as mother to her 14-year-old son.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Marian has been a long-standing participant in and is now an official ambassador for St.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Vincent de Paul's CEO sleeper.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Her charitable efforts also include a former ambassadorship for White Ribbon and private advocacy for those navigating the family law system.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: She's passionate about supporting women navigate the family law and family court system.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: She's also the recipient of numerous awards for her work with women, including this prestigious award from the Financial Executive Women's Association for the Positive Progression of Women in Australia.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Marion has been featured in CEO Magazine, the Australian Newspaper, Money Magazine, Property Investor Magazine, and many more publications.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the podcast, Marion.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sally and good morning.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited this morning.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to share my insights, knowing they'll help somebody listening to the recording today.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as you were just reading out those publications, I was thinking you could just put my name in Google these days, and far too much information comes up, which is good on one hand, maybe not so good for one's dating life.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not great for your dating life, but great for all of us who are looking for the wisdom and the insight that I know you have to share.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So let's kick off with some questions.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as evidenced by my reading out of that wonderful bio, you seem to wear quite a number of different hats from financial literacy to property to being the rebuild person for people after separation.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask you to share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and really what motivates you, the why you do what you do.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks, Sally Ann.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So when I hear this specific question, I guess that I'm reminded of who we are is actually defined by what we do on a consistent basis.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: So to answer your question, I'll say that I spend most of my time doing and being a champion of women, and that is helping women develop financial literacy to empower them into their own economic and independence.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: But as you know, I'm also a passionate advocate for those who are marginalized due to the cards that life has probably dealt them.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I have spent many years as an official advocate for White Ribbon formerly and now St.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Vincent de Poor Society.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really about chaptering the plight of women and homelessness.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And also a deep passion around advocating for those enduring family court systems.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm mostly concerned, to be honest with you, of the impacts adults cause children in that process.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I'm not doing all of that, I'm a mother to a 14-year-old son, Somerset, and a COVID-acquired 15-month-old border collie pup called Kai.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess on a lighter note, for you know, for fun, I like to uh play pranks on people.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is probably strange, I know, but the truth is it's something I really enjoy doing.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, to um just to answer the second part of that question, I guess it's my life experiences that motivate me.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I've come from very humble beginnings and I lost both my parents um unexpectedly when I was in my early 20s.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've also actually navigated beyond that being a solo parent and having to raise my son whilst forging a career.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's from these experiences.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I wouldn't say that I won the life lottery, given what I just shared with you, but I would say I've always been in the arena trying and creating success.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: That ignited a desire in me to want to help um others choose success over their stories.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that speaks to what deeply motivates me.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And now when I bring all those elements of my life together, being a solo mother, a financial literacy educator, a property mentor, as well as an advocate for the prevention of homelessness of women, I feel really called to help women and men rebuild after a major life event, be it the loss of a loved one or a marriage uh breakdown.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, so powerful.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and thank you for sharing not only the what but the why.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess leading on from that, I would like you to explain to the listeners exactly what your work entails and who who uses your services.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I do get asked this question quite a bit.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so first and foremost, I'm a certified money coach, and that is I help people understand and improve their money EQ and IQ, IQ being financial literacy.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Separate to that, I'm also a professional property mentor, and normal people use my services: professional women, couples, men, um, and both blue and white collar workers.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's yeah, so that's what my job in details and who uses my service.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were looking to increase your knowledge base in money and how to manage it and take care of it and grow it, um, then you would come to me as opposed to being someone who just wants to go to, for example, a financial planner and get licensed advice and be told what you should be doing.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the other example would be if you wanted to do anything with property, if you wanted to buy your first home as a young woman starting out, or somebody who's been through separation and divorce and you're now having to think about buying real estate in your own name, probably for the first time in your life.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe you want to invest and build a property portfolio, which is where I've spent a big part of my time in the last two decades is helping women buy property assets.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and these days the the flavor of my working property is a little bit more diverse, um, particularly as I spend more time supporting, helping um separated people, divorced people, reset um in their lives.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, that's a little bit about what I do and who actually uses my services.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can you can you go a little deeper on the property part of your work?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And can you explain to us why property for women particularly is such a passion project for you?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: What impact does women have in access to property, understanding property, and investing in property, what impact does that have on their lives?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And why is it a passion project for you?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sally Ann, I love this question so much, and I could talk for about four hours.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: We might have to queue back on for a second.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um series two.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, property has always been a deep passion for me.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I started investing in my early 20s, and my first investment was a commercial property in Collins Street, um, as was my second one actually.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I moved from investing in commercial property uh to start buying um residential real estate.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: That experiential connection to property was really the seed behind my commercial efforts to start championing all women to own at least one property in their own name, and thus why I created the brand Property for Women.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, really, in simple terms, um, the impact that understanding and having access to both property and money has on women is really freedom, and that is the freedom to leave a job they dislike, the freedom to live safely, the freedom to flee from difficult personal circumstances, and freedom to rest when they need to because they have the needs.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's easy to think of um property in the dry, one-dimensional sense that where we see it talked about so often on LinkedIn, on the media, you know, rates, stats, figures.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth is property is really a vehicle that gives us those things that I just mentioned, gives us access to money in the form of equity available in the property, gives us access to perhaps a second income that's a passive income, gives us access to having a safe place to flee to should we need that, gives us the means to maybe work part-time rather than full-time because we have income from property.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So when I talk about property, I talk about it in the full spectrum of being like 5D, not 1D, and um and being beneficial to women's lives because it is just so um fluid and powerful and resourceful as a vehicle.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I what I hear in there too is it gives women choice.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: It gives choice, it gives and choice leads to freedom, or vice versa, I'm not quite sure.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, choice and freedom.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, without question.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe if you're listening, it's hard to understand how that is.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if you think about it, you know, like I started investing when I was 25 and bought my first property then.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that property grew and went up in value over time.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when I um ran into some difficult life circumstances a decade later, it was because I had that property and I had income from that property that I was able to navigate some very, very difficult circumstances.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um without that property, my life may have looked like something very dismal and difficult to um endure.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Very different picture, wouldn't it?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So leading on from that, I'm wondering if you could share some of the more innovative property or money solutions you've seen work for women.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: You started investing at 25 in commercial property, which not many 25-year-olds would potentially think to do.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering if you, as I said, could share some of the more innovative property and money solutions you've seen work or you've supported women to utilize access, particularly women coming out of separation, divorce, or doing it solo.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think firstly, I should preference whatever I share is not advice.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's not general or personal, because the reality is that the moves you make with money post-separation and divorce need to reflect, obviously, first of all, your highest values.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Second, the reality of your financial circumstances, and three, be practical based on the time you have left and the ability to earn an income.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if we think about those three things, every single person is different.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but here are a few innovative um decisions I've seen clients make and supported them with along the journey.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I've helped women post-divorce take their settlement money and start rent vesting.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's a new term for you, or you're hearing that for the first time, that simply means that you buy a property for the purpose of investing.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that tenant and taxman helps you pay it off, and then you go and live wherever you want to live, be it Bayern Bay, the Sunshine Coast, in Greece, see where my mind's at at the moment.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: So perhaps you you choose to do that and you buy an investment property instead of a new home.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in the case that I can think about it's because you know, this particular client was 50, and um they realized that they wouldn't be able to pay a mortgage of 25 years or 30 years by retirement age because they only had 15 years.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they also knew that they didn't have enough money for their later years.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now I love that example because there's what we've been taught and indoctrinated with, like you should buy a home and pay it off, the great Australian dream.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So there's what we want and that we're wired towards, but then there's the reality of, well, if we go back to those three things, what are your highest values, the reality of your financial circumstances now and in the future, um, and the practical time you have left in the workforce and the ability to earn an income, then there's what we want, and then there's what may be good for us.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that example, and the default position for most people coming out of separation or divorce who've had housing security for most of their life.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: The default position is I need to buy somewhere to live.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that may look like a$600,000 or$700,000 financial commitment over 30 years.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if we you know do the basic math on that,$50,000, um,$80, if I could possibly pay it off, it doesn't necessarily work out.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um I've also seen adults post-separation later in life um go back into a share arrangement, um, one a little more refined than sharing in your 20s for the purpose of reducing their living cost and companionship.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, this is a trend that we're starting to see more with what we call um micro studios.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've not heard of that channel before, um there's lots of um new development happening across Australia and in Victoria, wherever you're listening to from Australia, um, in the form of uh what would you call it?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a boutique housing situation where there might be nine independent micro studios.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so your rental cost hypothetically in these micro studios, which are a little bit more refined and a little bit more upmarket than say a you know, our our thought process of a rooming house or a share house, where you have you know your own entry and your own private um space and your own bedroom and private bathroom, um, and the rental may be 250, 285 a week on those.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And what they actually do have is they have a communal kitchen space.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but each kind of micro studio has its own kitchenette as well.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I've seen um yeah, adults post-separation really um do some innovative things like go into micro studio living and say, you know what, I'm just gonna rent vest and I'm gonna keep my living costs minimal because I'm out most of the time and I don't need the whole overhead of running an entire home.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and then they start to build up kind of a property portfolio in that regard.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So interesting.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've um I've had a conversation or an ongoing conversation with a couple of other single mummers in my community about how great that concept of micro studios would be, even for younger single parents with young children, where you can share the communal space but also communal childcare.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, correct.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, these particular micro studios, they're actually called in legal terms a rooming house.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really like that term because you know it sends images through your brain of something quite undesirable.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But typically they're under nine studios built in, and if you saw it from the street, it would look like a normal stock standard residential house.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and each micro studio has its own private outdoor space, be it a balcony or lawn.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a central entry point, which is the front door, and then you go into your studio, but there is a communal kitchen and communal laundry available, which is part of the rules and conditions.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's become a very bespoke area and something that I'm very passionate about because of the plight of uh older women and homelessness.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they're quite upmarket and done very tastefully these days.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So if that's something that anyone listening wants to explore in terms of you know investing in that kind of product, um more than happy to have a conversation or maybe even do another session around that.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to stay on track a little bit.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So just going back to your um your question, I've also helped women look at joint property ownership with another platonic person.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So to get back into the property market.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the term we use for this, it's it's known as buying as tenants in common.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Unlike when we buy a property when we're married, we usually buy as joint tenants, and that means if something should happen to us, then our half defaults to our husband, or if our husband should pass, their share defaults to us.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um buying as tenants in common means we can actually, you and I, Sally Anne, could say, there's this really great um property down the road, it's 800,000, my budget is 400.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Would you like to go 50-50?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I would buy a 50% share, and you would buy a 50% share.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we'd cohabitate and maybe we wouldn't, maybe we would rent it out.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's another innovative, creative kind of out-of-the-box thing.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And on the money side, I've helped women turn their um passion so many times.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is really fascinating for me.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think when people come out of separation and divorce, they can go one or two ways.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: They can sit in the narrative and the story of what has happened to them, or they can think about and focus on what can I now create.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the type of clients that I attract tend to lean towards that way.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I've helped so many women turn their passion into a fabulous side hustle and monetize it and actually increase their income opportunity.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what I love about this is most of them end up saying, This would never have happened if not for the separation or if not for divorce.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they really come into their own and they really find their creative genius or their soul work, and with a little bit of help and support, they're able to monetize that.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, yeah, so there's some examples for you.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, Marion, thank you for sharing those options, those examples.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them I probably hadn't considered myself before, and I'm sure many of the listeners haven't considered them.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I especially, of course, like the one about monetizing a passion project or creating a side hustle that would not necessarily have become a reality for these women were it not for a separation and a divorce.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: I often speak with my clients about divorce.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, yes, it's devastating, yes, it's sad, yes, it's difficult, all the things, but it's also an opportunity, an opportunity to take a pause and to choose what's next.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you support women through that as well.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe next we could talk a little more about money.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you talk about making it, keeping it, building it, and multiplying it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we take out the hustle or the scarcity or the story that we're not good at money and you know, strip out all guilt and shame around money?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: How can we do better?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: At the making, the keeping, and the multiplying of money?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really love this question because I think I'll break it down because it's a bit of a big question.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a long one, sorry.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's okay.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think firstly, making it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what I would say to people is be prepared, yeah, gain credentials and qualifications and become skilled at whatever your craft is.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think specifically for women, I would lean into when it comes to making money, um, more importantly, to stand up, speak up, and ask.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Ask for pay rises, ask for promotions, ask for better conditions.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I say this because as somebody who spent most of her professional career in the corporate world surrounded by men, men do this as if it's the most natural thing in the world, like ordering a toasted sandwich.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And sadly, women don't.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's this big internal turmoil and palaver, and oh, can I ask for more money?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, in terms of making it, obviously be prepared, have your credentials, your qualifications, be skilled at your craft, but more importantly than any of that, stand up, speak up, and ask.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Ask for pay rises, for promotions, better conditions, and greater opportunities.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: As for the keeping it, I would say this.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's very underwhelming, but I would say simply get a values aligned, fully automated money planner.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't live in the world of budgeting because I believe that budgeting predisposes that there's this notion that there's a limited supply of something and nothing further from the truth.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: So know your core values, what is the most important thing to you, and then get a money planner that is fully automated and reflects your highest values so that you're living a life that is sustainable in relation to the way that you're using money.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so if anyone is actually listening and if they are interested in what that even means, please, please, please reach out because having an automated money planner that's values reflective will radically change your life and your relationship with money more than any other piece of work that I can think of.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably one of the most powerful pieces of work that I do.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then when women have these set up, they're like, oh my God, why didn't someone show me this sooner?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was trying to be a bookkeeper and pay bills every month, and they don't have to because that bit's automated.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I never thought about putting money away for my feature.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't have to worry because that bit's automated.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um can you, sorry, can I jump in there?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just explain what you mean by values aligned?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know because you and I have shared this, we've had this conversation in the background before we record it, but for the listeners, can you explain what you mean by that?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it may help if I give an example and I'll use myself for one of a better example, but one of my highest values is to be a present mother to my 14-year-old son.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my highest values.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And not being a values aligned would be if I was offered a corporate job and they said, Look, we'll pay you half a million dollars a year, but we need you to work a hundred hours a week.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: That would not be a values aligned decision for me because that would take me away from my son.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a values aligned decision would be me declining that, which most people listening would go, Are you crazy?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like someone's offering you half a mil, but you're still going to say no.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: It wouldn't be sustainable because it's not aligned with what's the most important thing.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I would fall into a state of sadness probably at month one, probably hit depression by month two.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then I probably have great remorse and regret by stage three, by month three.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So values aligned means it lines up, it's conducive to what is the most important thing to you.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when we use money in a values-aligned way, so for example, another example, often when I say to somebody, what's your three highest values?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, most people don't know what their three highest values are, and that's why they come and do coaching and mentoring and get money EQ.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Some women will say, 'Well, you know, my highest value is health and well-being.' And I'll say, 'Okay.' Then when we look at the way that they use money, for example, hypothetically, if we looked at their credit card statement, it would show that they, you know, have eaten out four nights in the week and go to a cocktail bar regularly, and um there's no spend on gym membership, and there's no spend on um health care, and there's no spend on physically taking care of themselves.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I would then come back to that client and say, I would struggle to think that health and well-being and fitness is one of your highest values because your actions don't marry up with that.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that might seem obvious to you and I, but honestly, when you're just doing life and you've got work and family and commitments, you're just doing what you're doing.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: You never stop and think at this nuanced level until somebody actually says, Hey, can you see how you're telling me health and fitness is really important to you?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but all of your behaviors are the opposite.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we see this a lot, Sally Ann, in the corporate world where people will say that they are really committed parents and what have you, um, but because of their work, their kids are in before school care, their kids are in after school care, and by the time they see them on weekends, they're absolutely exhausted and their tolerance levels are low.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but these children are going perhaps to the best private schools or perhaps have the best physical resources.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, if you question uh if you question the parent about this, they wouldn't necessarily be aware of it.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wanted to make that point because it doesn't sit usually in your conscious uh sphere of what you understand about yourself, and it usually does require a skilled coach to do a little bit of digging and a little bit of research.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's for keeping money.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I trust, does that answer your uh question on that, on the values aligned?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I love I love it because it's also stuff that I do in my work with clients.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what are your what are your life values, but how are those values playing out as you move through your separation, through your divorce?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe uh connection is one of your stated life values, but you're really communicating in ways with your soon-to-be ex-partner, your you know, everybody else around you, everyone else who's experienced, experiencing or going through the separation, divorce with you, your communication is such that you're actually not connected, you're not even connected to yourself.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I do similar work on values, but in a different, in a in a different capacity.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, interesting.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: I sorry.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I was just gonna say I've I've um I've been taken aback by how many highly successful, incredible, resourceful, amazing adults that I work with, um, some of them for the first time are experiencing this notion about values and and living a values-based life.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that we're clearly educated in in school.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh just another way to describe what is a value, because when I say to people, what are your values?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Some people say, Well, my value is I'm a good person.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, that's a virtue by which you choose to believe it's not a value.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: A value is an emotional state that we wish to experience on a consistent basis.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I wish to experience the emotional state and essence of motherhood on a consistent basis, and thus that is one of my highest values.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if that helps somebody listening, but um, that's literally what a value is, an emotional state that we wish to experience on a consistent basis.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: I might just jump to your last point of that question before I forget, and you were asking about like the multiplying bit, um, and that is um making money from money.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we mean by that is if you go to work and you earn money and you pay tax, you've got some money left over, um, multiplying money means that you take the money you've already earned and you do things with it so it will create more money, like buy assets.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, those assets could be shares or they could be properties or they could be commodities.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: For those of you who are hearing that for the first time, that simply means things like gold and silver, um, or they could be managed funds.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um, when we talk about multiplying money or making money from money, um, this is why we need financial literacy.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because in Australia, we don't have this in our education system.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if we go to a licensed financial planner and say, I want to make money from money, and he goes, Great, because that's his core business and what he does.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: The problem becomes that we can't participate in an intelligible way in the conversation or the decision making because we don't actually understand what it is that is uh being spoken to us.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a bit like when I go to the car dealership and they service my car and I go to pick it up, and sometimes the charge is unexpectedly more, and they start speaking, and I say don't because I don't actually know what you're saying to me.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't query whether that unexpected bill is legit or not because I have a zero knowledge base.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is what I would say to wrap up that question.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that in my professional and personal experience, that women are incredible at making money.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're tenacious, they're hardworking, they're resilient, and they're certainly far from lazy.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, based on the stats and the data around our levels of debt, um, that probably about 50% of the people that I have worked with or met in some capacity are able to manage their money successfully and the other 50 aren't.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we know this from the data because when we look at consumer debt, what it tells us in Australia is that majority of people are spending more than they earn.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we would call that not great money management.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the final end of making money from money or multiplying money, I would say that only 10% of women even begin to understand it.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that women are lazy and it's not that women don't want to build wealth, they just, you know, focus on making money, some focus on managing it, and then they go, I don't know how to multiply it, so I just won't do it.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or even don't even know that it's possible to multiply it.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Money for money.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not a conversation that it's not a conversation, as you said, that we have in our education system.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would advocate, um, uh and anyone listening, sure, you can go to licensed professionals like financial planners or mortgage brokers or whomever or stockbrokers and say, I know nothing, and let me just pay you money and then you tell me what you should do.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I do not advocate this approach.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: I advocate financial literacy, and it's so easy in the way that I teach it in my programs, that within 90 days, women find themselves being able to have conversations at levels they've never been able to have conversations before with their accountant, with any advisors.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I strongly advocate financial literacy.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and as you as you explained using the car slash mechanic example, if you if you have the language and you have the understanding, even if it is a fairly basic understanding, you can enter into the conversation and then build on that literacy, build on that um education and that's empowering in itself.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um I think the most disheartening thing in life would be to not be able to participate in the decisions and the outcomes that will go on to shape your life purely because you didn't have the knowledge base.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: I can't think of anything more disheartening than someone saying to you, look, I know you don't understand this, just let me take care of it and don't worry about it.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: So disempowering, agree, and heartbreaking.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and traps, particularly women, that kind of mentality or um those decisions trap women in spaces, jobs, or relationships where um where they perhaps don't want to be or that aren't safe or healthy.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, 100% agree.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Sally Ann, on that point, it's a really big call to make, but I make it with conviction and I and I'll keep saying it until um every woman starts listening.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I sincerely and honestly believe with every fibre of my being that financial literacy is one of the most important preventative tools to homelessness, to poverty, and to financial abuse.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's that simple.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Financial literacy is just such a game changer because you can make decisions from a place of being empowered, and you know, that saying that we can only really ever be overpowered in any area of our life where we're first disempowered.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and that's the key.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Financial literacy is the key.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not paying experts, you know, lots of money to tell you what you should do and how you should think and what you should buy, but really that first step of just going, you know what, I'm just gonna learn this.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I learned to cook, yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna learn financial literacy because it's going to be a skill set that's gonna hold me in good stead for the rest of my life.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just as being able to be a good cook holds one in, you know, for the rest of their life.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've answered you've answered my next question without me needing to even ask it through conversation.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I thank you.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you've just yeah, so we can skip that.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what I wanted to do was ask you, and we sort of touched on it when we when you raised the um the Micro Studios housing solution.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: What about those adults, particularly women who who have a smaller asset base or a smaller income as a starting point?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Those who might realistically tip into the reality of homelessness, as you were just as you just touched on, because you and I both know that fastest growing demographic when it comes to homelessness is older women.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: So can you speak to those women who who might be listening thinking half a million bucks?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I could never earn half a million bucks in a year.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even earn 50,000 bucks in a year.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: So someone with the smaller asset pay, smaller income as a starting point.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I might jump into a little bit of um microfinancial literacy here, and I think I would answer it in this way, I'd say that no matter how little we earn, the principle always remains the same.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is the money that we earn should do three jobs for us, not just one.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So for most people, they earn money, then they spend it, and the story is over.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: So from a financial literacy perspective, money should do three jobs for us.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: The first job it should do, it should make sure that we meet our financial and legal obligations.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I mean by that is pay our bills on time and our loans and our debts and all of those things that actually impact our credit rating.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first job that money should do.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: It should meet our financial and legal obligations.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: The second job that money should do for us is it should make sure that we're living well now, today.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: The reason I say that is most of us were raised from my era with the mentality of sacrifice everything for the future.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, in my personal experience that I shared earlier on in the beginning of our interview, in my early 20s, I lost both of my parents.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that really changed and shaped my relationship with money and how I treated money.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so the second job that money should do is money should allow you to live well now.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the third job is that money should take care of the future youth.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if I earn$100, instead of thinking about it in the context of I have$100 now, I can buy half a pair of shoes or a pair of shoes, yeah, one should be thinking about it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hang on, I could break this into three ways.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I could put some towards paying my legal bills and obligations, I could put some towards having a really great time now, and I could put some to taking care of my future self.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you make$40,000 and you're listening to this podcast, or whether you make$400,000, that basic principle of money doing three jobs remains the same.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I would go a little bit further to say is that we should all aspire to have a safety net of future months' salary.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it be whatever it is for you, Sally Ann, it'll be different for me because we will have a different internal requirement for certainty and security.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have a very high internal requirement for safety and security, quite a conservative person.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, that looks like I want to know that I've got six months' salary in the bank as a backup plan should anything happen to my ability to earn money so that my family can continue living as they normally would for at least six months.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we would call having a safety backup plan of salary available to us.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the second fund, regardless of how much we earn, we should all aspire to have, is what we call an emergency fund.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: An emergency fund again is just a figure.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: For you, it might be 10,000 salarian.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: For me, ultra-conservative, me over here, it might be 50,000.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's that emergency fund for?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: That emergency fund is for the car completely blows up, and I have to find a plan B.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: My son needs major emergency dental works that costs five grand, but I don't I don't want to go into my reserve fund of my salary backup, but I've got this emergency fund over there.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then that doesn't mess up my little formula of, you know, making sure my bills are paid on time, making sure I'm having a good life now, I'm putting money away for my future because I have this emergency um fund sitting there.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I guess what I would say to people who are at the lower end of the earnings spectrum or are starting out again, and we've all been there, I've been there, yeah.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think the intangible thing I'd like to say to you is we've just got to be willing to meet reality where it's at.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if that means um sharing at 50 with others, yeah, like sharing accommodation at 50, even though we were used to living a certain quality of life, then so be it.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or if that means finding ways to monetize a new side hustle or finding ways to earn extra income, so be it.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes there's a gap between the reality of just what is and how people want it to be.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And in my experience, if we surrender into reality and we are not in conflict with reality, then what happens is a thing called flow and grace when we surrender into reality.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because from that space of reality, we can see realistically our options and move towards those options when we are in conflict or contrast to reality.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when I'm coaching someone, that'll be a major part of the work.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's a huge gap in between the reality that is and how they want it to be, and from that space, nothing can really be built.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um I trust that makes sense.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I might have gone a little bit off tangent, but I would say to those people who are starting out again or lower income earning, the principles remain the same.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's really powerful um knowledge.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it as you said, it doesn't matter.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what the numbers are, and the numbers will look different for me, for you, for someone listening, but those basic principles are the same.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted now to shift the conversation a little bit more towards family law because I know that's another passion of yours.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um the family law, the family court, the family the way women especially experience that family law system.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask you, in your opinion, what needs to change in the way we speak about, support, educate, and empower women who are navigating a separation or divorce?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, uh Celienne, um, what I'm passionate about is helping women avoid.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: The family court at all costs, so I think I just better make that clear.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for clarifying.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know that, but um, just when you're passionate about the family court, no lawyer, barrister, judge uh grouping or anything.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm passionate about having women um avoid the family court system at all cost.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now I've supported many, many, many, many women through this process and I've mentored many clients uh navigating it and then helped them rebuild after.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And my position is even stronger in that I do not recommend to anybody participating in the family court system unless there was some kind of serious safety issue or um important reason for them to do so.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think people have a misconception that they can't work things out together between themselves, but we'll go into a courtroom and then I'll get what I want.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that seldom is the case.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think what needs to change is that we need to speak about separation as a completion rather than a success or failure.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: In my experience of working with people um who have decided they wish to separate or are perhaps already navigating the divorce, there tends to be a need to define that separation into either my marriage was a success, but I'm leaving, or I'm such a failure because you know my marriage didn't work.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to redefine it in language and say that it's actually a completion.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: We also need to educate women on how to financially, how to be financially capable, both pre, during, and post-separation.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I have to say this um without uh without any question, I don't personally believe that they should navigate it alone.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh even if they have a degree of financial literacy and consider themselves quite successful with finances, it's a very destabilizing time in one's life, and you're not necessarily making decisions from a place of rationale.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I advocate that they should have a coach or a mentor or someone who can privately and confidentially support them through the process.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, that is adequately skilled.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for some women that's a bit hard to hear because they're like, well, you know, I'm I'm competent with money, I don't need this.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I also hold true in the saying that successful people ask for help and get the support that they need and usually suffer a lot less along the way.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I think that's what needs to change.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in terms of language, I think we need to definitely reframe how we define a separation for ourselves.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: I love that word that it's a completion, or that, you know, your explanation that divorce is a completion, it's not a failure.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: I also really talk with my clients about property settlement and and that process not being a win-lose property and also children, childcare arrangements.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, divorce doesn't have to be a win-lose scenario.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: It can be, as you said, a completion and it can be a win-win reorganization of family and life afterwards.
• 47:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And also an opportunity, Sally Ann, because if it's a completion, then there's an opportunity, maybe to create for the first time in their life something that they've deeply yearned and longed for for as long as they can remember.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or even haven't allowed themselves to yearn and long for.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's been pushed down and silenced for so long that it's that the completion allows that voice, that inner voice to be really heard and something new to blossom.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I love quotes to anchor meaning and messages.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the quote that I love most around this topic that we're discussing is the Chinese proverb.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a famous Chinese proverb that says, we never really know whether something's good or bad until the very end.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: The power of hindsight, yeah.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: I also wanted to ask you a more specific question around women separating and divorcing, and that is the woman who finds herself in a situation where she's divorcing a really powerful, well-resourced, well-financed man where there's a financial imbalance, but also potentially a power imbalance.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think she can best empower herself?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: And how can she, on a really practical level, upskill herself to navigate her separation divorce?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna answer that by saying something very um poignant, and that is wherever there is a financial disparity at any time, there is always, with that exception, a power and balance.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're somebody listening to this and you have some you know narrative around money being distasteful or money gets the root of all evil, or all those wonderful things that we were programmed with.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Money is the ability to have freedom and power and choice, and that's what money is.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: So wherever there's a financial disparity, there is always going to be a power imbalance.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now, to answer your question, I've helped many uh women in this position exactly navigate this landscape.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what I would say to you is we don't know what we don't know.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're entering into a space of separating from somebody, and with that comes a whole new um arena of things that we need to navigate: financial separation, family law courts, maybe children's custody.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my best advice and guidance is you've got to be smart about it.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: You literally have to find somebody who's been there.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, success leaves clues.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to reinvent the world.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Go on the search for somebody who's navigated that journey because life is experiential, it's not theoretical.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: The solicitors and the barristers can share all the theoretical knowledge in the world with you that they wish because they're highly educated.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the learning is done in the experience, and the person who's been in the cool room and the person who's navigated the landscape, and the person who has the firsthand learnings is a great person for you to find, spend time with, and and knowledge, share, and learn from them.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Find your wingwoman or your co-driver or your navigator.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you because you know, in the in the family law system, what we do see is a disparity of power in that arena, because when you go into that arena, it is the person that is best legally represented that stands the best chance of having the outcomes they want to have.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: To best be uh legal legally represented, one needs money.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Solicitors can charge anything from$250 an hour to$1,000 an hour, and barristers can charge anything from$3,000 to appear for you on the day up to$10,000.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: So having knowledge and strategy and foresight and understanding is everything.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes in life, you know, we don't all win the life lottery.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I think about my family circumstances, um, I didn't necessarily win the life lottery per se because you know I didn't have the people that I wanted to have with me for the larger part of my journey.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we are just at a disadvantage.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a reality.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: So then we have to get resourceful, then we have to get smart, then we have to find somebody who can be a guidepost for us so we know how to navigate what we don't know how to navigate.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, um, you really need to find someone who's got an extensive working knowledge in the system, the players, the games, and how to get out of it as quickly and painfully painlessly as possible.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that I would share is if you're in a power imbalance situation where that person is very resourced, they will have people working, collating, um, doing all the documentation.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Preparation is everything when it comes to the family core.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Facts, documentation, timelines.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I think you know, on the other side of that, more importantly, have a focus forward mindset and be in the planning stages of your new life.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's bigger than the task of separation at hand.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just a practical tip that I'm sharing.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I observed helping many women navigate the family law system where there was a disparity and maybe they had to self-represent, and the other side had lawyers, etc.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if that's all you have in front of you, that will consume you 100% of the time, always.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you have started um daydreaming, planning, thinking about this new opportunity and planning your life, yeah, um, then that gives you a focus beyond the family court and beyond having to navigate all that.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: And believe it or not, that will make you more successful in a courtroom.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Couldn't agree more, could not agree more.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's how I always start.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: I always start with my clients, let's start at the end, and I mean two, five, ten, twenty years.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: And my regular listeners have heard me say this so many times.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start two, five, ten, twenty years time into the future.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: How does that life for you look and feel?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: Focus on that.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now come back to the reality of where you are and how are you going to step forward from where you are to where you want to be.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I love, I love that you shared that.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think, you know, Sally Ann, being inside the family court system and being at a disadvantage and not having the technical resources like the lawyers and the teams, it can be all consuming, both mentally, physically, emotionally.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um that ability to see beyond this time and that ability to have something that you aspire to have or work towards, I think is just so important.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, you actually won't survive the process.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: Which is, I think, a nice place to bring our conversation for now to a close when we're talking about focusing on the future and the bright light at the end of the process.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: But to close out, I'm going to ask you a question that I ask all my podcast guests, and that is if you could choose one song or piece of music to share with our listeners that would support them through the turmoil that is nav navigating separation, divorce, what would your song be?
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I could sing something for you if you'd be great.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: That was a bit impromptu, no, I'm kidding.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um let's see, I would have to say um during the pandemic, uh Alicia Keys wrote a song called Good Job.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: And she used her own funding and money to play it on all of the billboards all over America.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she wrote it for all the workers and the janitors and the garbage collectors and the nurses that had to soldier on whilst we were all safely in lockdown.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that song, because I believe we can all at times be absolutely our own worst critics, especially in the most difficult times.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we really do need to remind ourselves that we are usually doing the best we can.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and good job.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's a beautiful song, it's a simple song, but I think it's important to remind ourselves that we are always, always doing the best we can with wherever we're at at that time.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful, beautiful share.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: I will drop a link to Good Job by Alicia Keys in the show notes.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Marion, how can listeners find you and connect with you?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know you said earlier in our conversation that um a Google search will bring up far too much information.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: But if our listeners want to connect with you on a on a deeper level, what's the best way to for them to find you?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I spend most of my time these days on the LinkedIn platform.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate that some listeners may not be on LinkedIn.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I would say to that if you're not and you care about making money, that is the virtual marketplace, and being on LinkedIn will help you make money.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're not on there, I do have a website called thaleastanley.com.au, which um thalia was my mother's name actually, and um Stanley was my father's name, and so I wanted an excuse to speak their name and write it down often, so I chose the uh the name Thalea Stanley Group.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if those two avenues fail, then put my name into Google.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: Not if you want to date me, just um, and far too much info will come up and you will find a link to get to me uh from there.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Marion.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: I will drop a couple of links to you, your LinkedIn profile and your website in the show notes.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if any listeners do want to connect more deeply with you, they can just drop down into the show notes once they finish listening.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing your story and your wisdom with us today.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: It has been an absolute honour and a privilege to share time and space with you.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can't thank you enough.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Sally, and I trust that what I've shared today speaks to at least one person listening.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if I could close off by saying that, you know, we never know what's possible if we don't try and just take that first step.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have made it to the end of this podcast, um I really would champion you, encourage you, hold space for you and support you.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Start getting financial literacy because that is going to hold you in good stead for the rest of your life.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's going to hold, if you have children, those children instead.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: And just perhaps you could change a lifelong narrative or story that you have around money by getting a little bit of help and support with financial literacy.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hallelujah.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Brian.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Sally Ann.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Recreate, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.