Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / A fascinating story of courage - Andrew Gibbs-Dabney

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A fascinating story of courage - Andrew Gibbs-Dabney · Nightmare Success In and Out

• 0:01
  What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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  Hi. I'm Brent Cassidy.
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  Welcome to the nightmare success.
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  And Now podcast, we'll be exploring how to overcome your
• 0:09
  fears. And Nightmares is set yourself
• 0:12
  free. We're going to be exploring this
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  topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
• 0:17
  survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring.
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  Sometimes sad, there's some humor but hopefully you can come
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  away with a nugget of something that will help you knock down
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  some of the prisons. You built up And your own mind.
• 0:34
  Welcome back. Nightmares success at a not
• 0:36
  listeners. We have a very interesting guest
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  today. I first want to give a shout-out
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  to Greg chiren who's an old fraternity brother from the Phi,
• 0:48
  Delta Theta down at Mizzou and he's down in Arkansas and he
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  came across and and knows my guest.
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  But there was There was a article that was written an
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  outside Business Journal, but it was generated by Andrew Gibbs.
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  Dabney, who's the founder CEO of lives in designs and what was
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  spirit. All this was Andrew went to
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  prison 2011 and he had a and he'll explain all this, but it
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  was caused by a cot College. Oxycotin, Haze of Owen, some
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  money, to some bad people and kind of being at the wrong
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  place. Wrong time, all these things
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  hazy and he robbed a liquor store, Going forward as we
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  always talk about on this podcast is you know what happens
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  when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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  Well after prison, you know, how do you adapt?
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  How do you survive? Well, Andrew went out, he got
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  his bachelor's degree, you got married to the love of his life
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  at two kids, and started to really cool company that he's
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  passionate about. And what happened with this
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  LinkedIn post. There was I said that he was
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  looking to be an investor to help grow the company and he
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  backed out, he backed out because he went the background
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  check easy and say, hey, I don't, you know, that's I'm not
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  good with that. That's every guy's fear and the
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  world of business and being an ex-felon What was really
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  interesting about how Andrew handled this was.
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  He just said, hey, that's it. I'm not going to let them use
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  that leverage against many more. I'm going out front with it and
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  he posted this really cool honest authentic post on
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  LinkedIn and he talks about the interpretation of about a week,
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  going by a, not letting that publish button.
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  Go and he finally posted and he got a tidal wave of support.
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  He's got new investors now saying because Of what he said
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  at his post, he wants and they want to be investors that then
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  generated the outside the outside Business Journal.
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  Wrote a really cool piece all this came to meet you Greg, Greg
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  and I connected and then I was able to connect with Andrew
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  Andrew. I'm really happy to have you on
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  and you to tell your story, Andrew Gibbs.
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  Dabney. Welcome.
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  Thank you. Thanks for the nice intro and
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  I'm really happy to be here. Appreciate it.
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  We Andrew. And I had some issues yesterday.
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  This is round two for us. We were trying to do our deal.
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  I usually linked up if somebody's not in town through
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  Zoom so we can see each other while we're talking and we
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  couldn't quite get our internet thing to work.
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  But today all's well, nothing's, every tear, I teacher know when
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  you need stable internet, that's when it decides to become very
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  unreliable. Yeah.
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  Got a bad bad girl friend that you used to know and she comes
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  and ruins the party. So Andrew, you know, your story
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  is interesting from a lot of different aspects but take us
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  back a little bit to where you were as a kid.
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  Was it a normal childhood? What were your interest?
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  Mom, Dad siblings, how did all that shake out for you?
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  I think there is some Thai to, you know what, I ended up doing
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  in my story from a childhood because that was actually born
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  with my feet. This is really pigeon-toed.
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  So as opposed to look, you know, feet going forward, slightly
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  out, might be rapidly, pigeon-toed to the point where
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  they were facing backwards at the time and the location I was
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  then the treatment for that was was surgery.
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  So resetting the bones casting and then, as as you grow, you
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  know, something. Warm up this, you have to do
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  that, periodically, every really year to two years until you're
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  out of that, that's that insane growth cycle of childhood.
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  So from 0 or 2 weeks to 12 at eight surgeries on both feet,
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  did they have to can do and Iran?
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  That like every time you did that?
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  Was it a like a almost, like a broken.
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  Casting type thing that went on. Yeah, I was actually casted to
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  my hips both times so's. You know, my leg was in kind of
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  a bent position to can't see my legs, but cats all over the
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  hips, on both legs. You know what the time in the,
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  in the hospital. And I honestly don't remember
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  the very the first few surgeries.
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  But as I became an older child spent, a lot of time the
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  Children's Hospital, specifically down to New
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  Orleans, and Little Rock Arkansas.
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  Other than that though, I mean do you think I was wondering
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  Andrew on that type of thing because you as a kid that's not
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  usually what kids have to go through.
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  All those different surgeries. Do you think that indirectly
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  created some kind of inner? I don't know strength or
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  something that, you know, usually kids don't have to do
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  that. And you went through and you and
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  you're very humble about the fact of how you went through it,
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  and don't remember a lot of the pain and that but it's still a
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  lot of surgeries that kids don't have to go through.
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  But it seems to me like you'd have to build up some kind of
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  something that I can get through this.
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  You know, this is another surgery, I'm going to have to go
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  through it. I'm going to have to get through
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  it and recover and all those different things that have to go
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  on with that. Yeah, I mean, in retrospect
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  looking back on, I think there's some there's some truth to that
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  at the time you know just a kid who wanted to ride my bike and
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  play basketball. And you know, I didn't spend a
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  lot of time. I don't remember a single time
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  dwelling that there was a surgery coming up.
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  Sure, I knew. And then while I was there, it
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  was just, you know, play in 64 in the hospital bed.
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  Do what I can until I'm back out of those cows cast and can can
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  go do things that kids do, I grew up after to your, you know
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  two years old. We moved to Fayetteville
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  Arkansas on my family, lived by Wilson Park, which is this Lee,
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  great big outdoor park. And you know, my memories of
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  childhood were getting up school and getting on a bike and riding
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  down to the park and building, Forts and playing in the creek
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  and, and all that punctuated by these times when I wasn't doing
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  that obviously because I was casted.
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  But you know, as a kid kids are just resilient, I think I'm sure
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  there was some, there's some lasting effect of that and, you
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  know, in my psyche that I haven't really analyzed or or
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  thought much about, you know, one of the things that I think
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  is interesting when it comes to My individual path and issue
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  with prescription drugs was, you know, there's your brain works
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  in certain ways in the more you do certain actions consume
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  certain chemicals, your brain becomes more efficient at those
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  things. And so as a kid I was you know
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  prescribed morphine and was obviously in the hospital on
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  pain medication for all these surgeries.
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  All through childhood, I think it has something to do with
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  later on in college when I became More explorative in my,
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  you know, substance use, I found opiates and it was just kind of
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  an immediate comfort with that substance and I think that has
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  something to do with my eventual addiction to it, probably felt
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  familiar, you know? And I think the other thing was
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  familiar to you as you know one of the things you talk about in
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  your LinkedIn and and the Articles Define, your passionate
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  fit seems like your passion was finding that Park and doing all
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  those outdoor things because And now you're this, founder of this
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  company that lives in designs and it's all about the outdoors.
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  And I think that's cool that you know, a lot of people will go
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  their whole life and not find their passion.
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  And with you Andrew you went through a lot of different maps
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  to get to where you are now but your Journeys been back to your
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  passion. And you know one of the things
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  that you say I think is so good is is my past is not my present.
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  But it brought me here. Love that.
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  Yeah, I think that's that's crucial for for me specifically.
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  And I'm hoping, you know, the chair this Lincoln posted didn't
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  have necessarily a big altruistic goal with it.
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  It was like, you said, I wanted to bring my past and my present,
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  I wanted to do it on my terms, but I think that's true of a lot
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  of people that have any sort of criminal or conviction
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  background is that that experience formed to they are
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  today, but it's not necessary. Ali who they are.
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  And so it's hard to have something that was such a big
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  event in someone's life. It's just when my life such as
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  so big and such a big experience that you then kind of closet or
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  table or put away and then don't don't speak about because while
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  it's not the thing that you are today.
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  It obviously had a big effect on you and you wouldn't really do
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  that about other events in your life or things because they're
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  more socially acceptable, talk about.
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  And so, all right Graham and I want I think the other thing
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  Andrew about that is that And I think you probably felt.
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  This also is somehow it's taking back a little bit of that power
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  of your story. So that your story can't be used
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  against you, you own it and you're telling it the way that
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  your narrative and those people who are saying we can't do this
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  because I think he was hiding the fact that he went to prison.
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  No I'm telling you what happened, I'm telling you my
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  story and then all of a sudden these people get behind the
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  underdog of the story. So yes, this guy deserves is a
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  second chance. I think that happens so little,
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  because of the courage that it takes because you're you hitting
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  the publish button, was, does this kill my company?
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  There's a kill everything that I've built and believe and love
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  and and have passion for or is it free me?
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  And, you know, a lot of what we talk about all these different
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  stories is how do you get through your nightmare to
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  finally set yourself free? A lot of it is is stepping up.
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  To the fear. A lot of it is going to hit that
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  publish button. And you know, I was, I me I've
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  jumped ahead of us, but going back into what brought you to
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  that. Point you go in.
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  You're a kid. Your your, your parents, I think
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  you'd said split up at some point and so you had did they?
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  They live on opposite sides at that Park.
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  Yeah, so I think when I was 6 years old my parents split up
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  but I mean it wasn't it wasn't naturally how bad and we they
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  ended up moving to both sides different sides of the same park
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  and so I made it, you know, I could kind of Traverse back and
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  forth and spend time with my dad and my mom and, you know that,
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  and yeah, so that has a lot of relationships are young.
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  Good relationships with Mom Dad. Yeah.
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  Good with both. And I split time, I was, I think
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  it most of my smaller childhood, split time to see my mom and my,
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  dad's a different And we're not like split week, usually but
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  like one parent for a couple years and then for the next
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  couple of years. And but we were in the same
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  school district and that's cool. You know, the things that I said
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  and I stayed in Fayetteville their my childhood and that in
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  that same area of the town which is near downtown near the
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  university and very You know, very traversable for young kids.
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  So actually I had a bike and that was my ticket to freedom
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  and yeah you know right around the park road around campus
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  right around downtown nose kind of my stomping grounds.
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  Yeah your child that sounds very similar to mine died and I had a
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  creek piercing Creek and I had that whole world of building
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  Forts and we had a undeveloped land, you know, beside it was
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  that, that the crazy thing about that is I think that we've lost
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  some of that to Andrew with our kids.
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  You know everything so scheduled and you know, you spent an hour
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  at this soccer thing and everybody brings treats and then
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  you go over here and it's scheduled but that free time for
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  kids to just gone riding their bike and then they come back
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  when it's time to eat, you know. It's not like that anymore.
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  I think we lost a little bit of that and it was it was probably
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  my generation that messed it up because it's, it's, it's a
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  different. It's a different world of the
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  kids grow up in Yeah, you know, with the you know, I now two
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  kids two boys, once two and a half in one's about to be one
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  year old and we were lucky to live in an area and a little
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  plug for one. It's Arkansas but I moved from
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  Fayetteville to Bentonville recently and neither one would
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  be great but where we are as a culture around outdoors and
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  mountain biking and so there's organized mountain biking the
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  schools and you know if the kid don't end up being into that,
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  that's totally fine. But one goal, I have as a parent
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  is to try to recreate some of That options that I had to be
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  near. Like you said, kind of
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  undeveloped open outdoor spaces that are still within walking
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  distance of home and safe. Yeah.
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  So they can get that sense of freedom and a more, you know, in
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  a controlled fashion. You're not, you know, nothin
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  about of the street. So that would be I think
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  bringing that back in as is huge if you're able to do it.
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  So and you're going back into were you were you got out of
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  high school? Went to college and I think
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  that's kind of where things as As sometimes always does, you
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  know kids, go, you know, it's like a free ticket to Paradise,
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  you know, your you've got total freedom Nobody's around parents
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  aren't there. How did how did this world
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  change for you? Or did you get with just a group
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  of friends that were all kind of experimenting and and living
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  life? And you got too far into the
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  wrong path? Essentially, you know, I got to
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  college and that's a whole wide world of freedom and opportunity
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  and take it many different directions.
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  Unfortunately, I was weary and you know, fortunately or not
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  it's hard to look back and judge was inquisitive and open to new
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  experiences and new substances. And at some point during
• 14:54
  freshman year, someone offered me some oxy cotton and like I
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  said, it was almost an immediate just friendly feeling something
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  that felt natural and increased confidence and all these things
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  that are Does about opiates that they do.
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  I had no real in my head at that time.
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  As a freshman, I didn't link up what I knew inherently about
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  something like heroin, you know, growing up like stay with me
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  here. When I didn't really equate that
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  to this Pharmaceuticals pill. You know, that was, that was
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  handed to me and most people do. Yeah, I think, you know, now,
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  there's so much been covered so much, and unfortunately, there's
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  such a terrible epidemic of addiction around opiates and
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  much more dangerous. Now, we won't get into that.
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  I'm lucky that I I kind of got in and got out before what's
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  going on with basically mislabeled spending on things
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  that you know, one dose and all these things.
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  So anyway I threw through freshman year, you know, it was
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  casual with it, I guess as much as you could.
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  And but eventually something happens, I think that everybody
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  that her most people that, you know, take that passed the first
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  uses, you know, what was a Friday.
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  And Saturday night thing is then all of a sudden, the Sunday
• 15:59
  morning hangover cure is then you know what you you just doing
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  it in Sunday afternoon. Then what the killer was
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  Recreation now becomes dependent.
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  And instead of taking something for fun, you're taking it to
• 16:13
  make breakfast or go to the store and go shopping or go to
• 16:17
  the bank because you actually can't physically operate without
• 16:19
  it. And there wasn't a lot of time
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  between, you know, first recreational use and pull on
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  physical and mental dependence. On the substance that, you know,
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  takes us pretty much through several years of college.
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  I switch from a business major Her to philosophy major, which I
• 16:36
  really enjoyed my time in class, but I was a poor student.
• 16:39
  I wasn't showing up for obvious reasons, but I was reading the
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  book that actually had a pretty big lasting impact on me and
• 16:45
  kind of what's on our Shelf. Mirror over here is is from that
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  but you know, ended up was you know, dismissed from U of A and
• 16:54
  had a place to live but wasn't doing well, I was really down on
• 16:58
  weight. I you know was at a habit, a
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  drug habit that was several hundred dollars a day just to
• 17:03
  get by and No real income. So in that situation I ended up
• 17:08
  owing people. You should know money.
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  A lot of money and wasn't thinking straight.
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  You know, the actual act itself. I know more about from reading
• 17:19
  the witness, testimony from the cashiers, and I do love myself
• 17:22
  like my memories, you know, that or kind of like, scenes from a
• 17:27
  movie that you kind of flash through your head and almost
• 17:29
  like a drink. Yeah.
• 17:31
  And on top of on top of box got, and I would often You make these
• 17:36
  with with other drugs like like Xanax and that one has a really
• 17:40
  bad reputation of having a serious effect on your
• 17:43
  short-term memory. And in that particular Hayes I
• 17:48
  you know made the decision at some point to go and rob a
• 17:50
  liquor store it was very Amateur.
• 17:56
  I was wearing a motorcycle helmet.
• 17:58
  I think I was browsing the wine section for over 15 minutes.
• 18:00
  Like presumably working up the courage but I don't remember
• 18:03
  that real thought process. Ask for what was the register
• 18:07
  not demanded. The guy said please, I left on a
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  motorcycle and you know, just the whole thing was just was a
• 18:15
  mature was stupid was nonviolent.
• 18:19
  And I think a lot of that is why I ended up getting a second
• 18:22
  chance that I got the sack. Facts of the case supported,
• 18:26
  it's in really honored idiot on drugs you know not a
• 18:30
  sophisticated criminal or someone with with with Menace or
• 18:34
  malice and their heart and I regret it.
• 18:39
  Oh Adrian. Yeah I was gonna ask you, how
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  did you took off on this motorcycle?
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  Knowing I mean, I'm sure the adrenaline rush was.
• 18:48
  Oh my God, I just robbed a liquor store which you'd never
• 18:52
  done before. What did you go and do after
• 18:55
  that? I don't really recall the ride
• 19:00
  home. I don't really recall what I did
• 19:01
  that night, what I did the next day was was bought some drugs
• 19:05
  and, you know, and went camping. So that was, that was kind of my
• 19:07
  default throughout all this have been an outdoor Enthusiast or
• 19:10
  whether a drug addict or not. I was actually out.
• 19:14
  Yeah. Right.
• 19:16
  And I was actually out in the woods and had set up camp and
• 19:18
  was sitting by the fire. And actually I said that cell
• 19:20
  service where I was someone called me and said, hey did you
• 19:23
  rob a liquor store in the moment?
• 19:26
  I blink. And I kind of speaks to the haze
• 19:29
  of the way these drugs to people and people it's hard to.
• 19:31
  Yeah. You see another as if someone
• 19:33
  that your loved one is in this state, they're not they're not
• 19:38
  looking back on. What they did and framing things
• 19:40
  are not recollecting, they're not out there and we're not
• 19:43
  processing emotions in that moment, I didn't remember it.
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  Like, I didn't realize why, you know, how I'd gotten to the
• 19:50
  point where I was and I was like, No.
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  And I thought it was like, oh shit and then they said, hey
• 19:54
  with your picture in the paper and that got me to pack.
• 19:57
  Up camp and head back to town and and start down a path of
• 20:00
  clearing this thing up so did it come.
• 20:04
  I can't remember the how the story went if they came to you
• 20:08
  and and busted in and said, you know, and arrested you because
• 20:11
  you, they had you on camera or did you go to them and say, hey,
• 20:14
  I've got to clear this up. I've think I robbed a liquor
• 20:17
  store what happened on that, so it's somewhere in between.
• 20:21
  So, I went to the ATM when they opened up with the police
• 20:24
  department the next day, they'd and walked But hey my pictures
• 20:27
  in the paper about the clear. This up I don't know what my
• 20:29
  game plan was that time I'd also said to function normally you
• 20:33
  have to be a little bit it does some stuff since you saw.
• 20:36
  I was at that point. Yes.
• 20:37
  And you know, didn't have a game plan but as soon as I walked in
• 20:41
  they did the good cop. Bad cop thing, really cold room,
• 20:44
  let's get you some breakfast. All you know just sort of asking
• 20:45
  all those questions and I realized pretty quickly.
• 20:47
  I needed a lawyer, you know, obviously people I did thing
• 20:52
  right? So like and I realized that in
• 20:54
  that moment had I did have some clarity and was like, okay I
• 20:57
  needed to get some help so I was actually allowed to leave in
• 21:02
  walk out without an admission of anything at that point where you
• 21:04
  know my lawyer at phone call them and but really what I think
• 21:08
  they were doing was trying to see what I was going to do.
• 21:10
  So I went home and bionerd some point that afternoon.
• 21:15
  My house was rated to knock on the door with a yellow.
• 21:18
  They are pieces of shotguns and SWAT gear and all that kind of
• 21:21
  stuff. And so I got a little bit of
• 21:23
  both and they arrested me at that point.
• 21:25
  What, what I'll do That experience.
• 21:27
  I'm sure it was if you can you walk us through that because I
• 21:30
  mean you that would have been something that you never happen
• 21:33
  in your lifetime. What was a bust and it wasn't
• 21:36
  that they didn't bust the door down.
• 21:37
  They knock. That's all I'm going to said.
• 21:39
  And what going in that was actually the most traumatic to
• 21:41
  me at that point was my dog, very friendly.
• 21:45
  But obviously when you have 15 people and full body armor, yeah
• 21:48
  coming in she was in the corner barking and I was just terrified
• 21:51
  that. Yeah, they would shoot the dog.
• 21:53
  So that was actually more traumatic part was saying Oh hey
• 21:57
  let me control her she's nice. She's lab likes, not going to
• 22:00
  hurt anybody. To let me get her and put her
• 22:01
  like out back and so they did and, you know, from there on I
• 22:06
  was those incarcerated for, you know, starting that day I had
• 22:14
  Three days in jail, Washington County Jail.
• 22:17
  My parents had made a decision to make arrangements while I was
• 22:20
  there and I'll let me out. I think it was a smart decision
• 22:23
  on their part and hard for me at the time.
• 22:24
  I was actually in a walking boot.
• 22:26
  Remember, previous motorcycle crash.
• 22:27
  And so I was in 23-hour, lockdown in jail, detoxing cold
• 22:31
  turkey and that's a very unpleasant experience, you know,
• 22:37
  with opiates. You can do that and not have a
• 22:38
  physical risk. It's just terrible.
• 22:40
  Terrible. Terrible feeling, but you're not
• 22:41
  going to die from it, you Somebody off of the strong
• 22:45
  alcohol. Yeah.
• 22:47
  And just goal turkey and music dangerous.
• 22:49
  But so I went through that part in jail and then you know, as
• 22:56
  people might or might not Jail, jail is really the bottom of the
• 23:03
  bottom of the Dirt Pile of lockup.
• 23:06
  You know, there's prison and people are figuring out how to
• 23:11
  make a life for themselves in that world.
• 23:13
  Old but jail, you get every single walking person who's
• 23:19
  either you know, get a d up for a DWI or they just killed
• 23:23
  somebody and all that happens right there and everybody's
• 23:27
  right there hat. How did you?
• 23:31
  How did you feel or adapt to that world going in because
• 23:36
  that's a it's a very unsteady world that you're entering when
• 23:41
  he do that. Yeah, you know I didn't I didn't
• 23:44
  have any experience with that early and I my first jail
• 23:48
  experience was was solitary like I said because I was because I
• 23:52
  had a walking boot and I had an injured foot.
• 23:56
  I wasn't put into general population.
• 23:57
  I was putting to walk that walk down Wing, so You know, one cell
• 24:01
  one person, 23 hours, one hour out to make a phone call or
• 24:04
  whatever. Kind of walk around but I
• 24:05
  couldn't walk. And so more than anything I was
• 24:08
  just I was just suffering through withdrawals in that
• 24:11
  those three days and not being able to eat not being able to
• 24:14
  sleep. You know, skin crawling the
• 24:16
  whole, the whole shebang. And so I didn't have to.
• 24:20
  Luckily I wasn't doing that in general population with a bunch
• 24:22
  of other people. Yeah, I'm sure there would have
• 24:24
  been some sympathy among this and they say, you know, you
• 24:26
  know, people want to help you out.
• 24:30
  Usually doesn't people going through the same thing, you
• 24:32
  know, like the jail and prison is more of a treatment for drug
• 24:37
  and mental health, issues and criminal issues.
• 24:40
  And so, there's that wouldn't have been the only one in that
• 24:42
  same boat. So I was, I was alone through
• 24:44
  that. So so Andrew, what were the next
• 24:47
  steps with this whole thing? Your parents obviously find out
• 24:50
  about this. What?
• 24:52
  What is zero reaction where they I guess I should ask.
• 24:55
  What were they aware that you were in?
• 24:59
  The way that you were before it happened had, you had talks or
• 25:04
  did they, were they trying to help?
• 25:06
  Or was it, was it, you on your own on your own path and they
• 25:09
  weren't really, you were living two separate lives.
• 25:14
  I was more of the ladder. I mean, they knew something was
• 25:16
  wrong. You know, failed out of school
• 25:18
  and I was obviously looked unhealthy and they, you know,
• 25:22
  they they could didn't know exactly what it was but they
• 25:24
  knew something was going. Yeah, right.
• 25:26
  And so, and there were, there were, you know, there was an
• 25:28
  intervention or any sort of doubt that didn't know what it
• 25:30
  was and I was, you know, function enough to pull it
• 25:34
  together for family events. Although you just can't hide
• 25:36
  that kind of stuff. You look terrible.
• 25:37
  You know, you don't think straight, you don't talk, right?
• 25:39
  And And things like that. So they made arrangements for me
• 25:43
  to go to rehab, I went down to Austin for a 90-day inpatient.
• 25:47
  When the I made bail Avail wasn't astronomical but maybe
• 25:51
  after three days, went down to Austin for the next few months
• 25:55
  and went to an Inpatient Rehab. And and this is where, you know,
• 25:59
  as you mentioned like your other talked about.
• 26:02
  Like I my experience, I think can potentially help people, but
• 26:06
  my experience is not the same experience that most people in
• 26:08
  the system have liked most Don't have the ability to go to a
• 26:11
  three-month rehab and have the Family Support to pay for it.
• 26:14
  And so I was lucky enough and continue to be lucky enough to
• 26:17
  have that support to give me to help facilitate the second
• 26:21
  chance. So I had a good lawyer Went to
• 26:24
  went to a good rehab and I made the choice, you know?
• 26:29
  Like I said, I don't even three days in to a cold turkey detox.
• 26:34
  And when you go to rehab, they offer, you can go through a
• 26:37
  medicated detox to kind of bring you down softly, so you don't
• 26:39
  have to go. Through that, all that pain, and
• 26:42
  I made the choice to forego the seven-day chemical detox and go
• 26:48
  straight into rehab and the my thought process the time and
• 26:51
  this is when things started to become clear, even though it's
• 26:54
  still much of the haze was, you know, this consequences to what
• 26:58
  I'm doing. I'm looking at it at the time I
• 27:00
  was looking at 40, you know. I was charged with aggravated
• 27:02
  robbery, that's 40 Years to Life.
• 27:04
  Cross y felony. So I was looking at minimum 40
• 27:08
  and I believe the choice about You to feel it, right?
• 27:12
  I wanted to feel the full detox. I wanted to feel the physical
• 27:17
  effects that the substance add-on products.
• 27:18
  I've never given I had read Rawls before, but I always
• 27:21
  managed it with medication, right?
• 27:23
  So I learned to really feel it and have that be, you know, the
• 27:28
  combination of the consequence of looking at for my actions,
• 27:31
  plus the physical effect of what I was doing.
• 27:34
  I wanted to basically hit myself with as much reality as I
• 27:38
  possibly could. So that when it comes time to
• 27:39
  have those, Decisions in those thoughts of, you know, could I
• 27:42
  go down this road again? Could, I could I try, you know?
• 27:44
  And it's no, yeah, the answer is no for me on that, because it's
• 27:49
  of where it led into your memory base.
• 27:51
  Yeah, makes sense, right? Yeah, yeah, I think.
• 27:57
  You know, to kind of further along like I was in rehab, I
• 28:01
  took it seriously. I was at a good rehab with a.
• 28:04
  I really like my counselor and small group and did a lot of
• 28:08
  obviously, you do a lot of self-discovery.
• 28:10
  I engage in like they, a 12-step program, but more importantly, I
• 28:13
  think it was just engaging in figuring out who I was and what
• 28:16
  my goals were and in that moment.
• 28:19
  And in those moments, when I was looking at best case scenario,
• 28:23
  re starting my life over at about now.
• 28:25
  So, like, in my early 30s, which is when I would have gotten out
• 28:28
  on good behavior on a 40-year States and I'll do, okay, what
• 28:32
  I'm going to spend 10 years in prison, what can I do during
• 28:36
  that time? How can I set myself up, to
• 28:37
  restart my life again at 32 or 33 and not waste, what this do
• 28:43
  long life, right? So I was having this thought of
• 28:45
  like, you know, you know, you know, burn 10 years but really
• 28:50
  Burns a bad word like you said, people in prison figure out how
• 28:52
  to make a life there. Yeah I didn't know that at the
• 28:54
  time, right? And it's a Thing, I think I
• 28:56
  wrote this in the post, but it's like, it's completely awful.
• 28:59
  It takes away your freedom, it does all these things.
• 29:01
  But also many people try to make the best of it.
• 29:03
  Yeah, you know, you kind of you try to create a comfortable zone
• 29:06
  for yourself. You have a small group of people
• 29:08
  you interact with and a, my experience in prison, I should
• 29:11
  say. It's a front was not typical
• 29:13
  either. I was only in general population
• 29:15
  for a week before I went to a boot camp.
• 29:18
  So I went from 3 months in jail that Washington County to a week
• 29:23
  in general population and really I said, general population.
• 29:26
  For the first 45 minutes, 45, the first several days of that
• 29:30
  was solitary again and processing.
• 29:31
  While they're waiting to put me at my unit.
• 29:33
  Yeah, but I got transferred out to a boot camp program and that
• 29:38
  was a big part of my plea. So we're getting a little bit
• 29:41
  ahead but like the rehab plus. I didn't like as much community
• 29:47
  service, I volunteered through that as you could they
• 29:48
  facilitated kind of go above and beyond.
• 29:52
  I checked out of rehab and into a sober house and continue
• 29:54
  continue to engage in a and TV service.
• 29:58
  And and at the time, you know, was was calling all family
• 30:03
  friends and people that knew me for who I was and saying, hey,
• 30:05
  will you write me a letter? We talked about me and say, you
• 30:08
  know, this person deserves you and they call them character
• 30:10
  letters. And so I gathered up almost 20
• 30:13
  of those from, from some people in the community including law
• 30:15
  enforcement friends and family people that knew me for who I
• 30:18
  was and would vouch. And so we went back to the
• 30:21
  judge, you know, my lawyer and said look, you know, first
• 30:24
  offense I've gotten clean and sober of the on the right path.
• 30:28
  Now, for really goes for five months, at that point is always
• 30:32
  characterized. He's my plan for when I get out,
• 30:34
  I'm going to land at my parents house.
• 30:36
  I'm going to get back into school.
• 30:37
  I'm going to do all these things.
• 30:38
  I'm going to restart my life and the judge, you know, once again,
• 30:43
  like think it's the privileged position of what I look like,
• 30:45
  and who I am and the ability to present, this kind of case did
• 30:50
  the right thing in that moment. It might, you know, obviously,
• 30:52
  I'm biased but I think that he looked at the facts and said,
• 30:55
  this is Obviously very serious. You're going to do some time,
• 30:59
  you gave me a 10 year. He pled down to theft of
• 31:02
  property, different class of felony.
• 31:07
  There's 20 years, 10 years suspended.
• 31:09
  And so in Arkansas at the time, he had ten years for a
• 31:11
  non-violent crime because I was nonviolent, you can go to boot
• 31:14
  camp, tried to go to boot camp, went through that process for
• 31:18
  another three months is 105 days which is military discipline.
• 31:22
  Yelling in your face drill boredom.
• 31:25
  But none of the Fun, no useful skills taught, you know.
• 31:29
  So let's talk about skills. I've heard about that boot camp
• 31:34
  thing, but so when you go to boot camp, can you describe can
• 31:40
  you walk us into it? Like, is it a dormitory, you
• 31:44
  know, or do you are you given tasks to do every day because I
• 31:48
  know prison. But the prison boot camp.
• 31:50
  But yeah, what can you walk us inside?
• 31:52
  That sure. So I mean that the setting is
• 31:56
  Tucker prison in Arkansas and New England which is down in the
• 31:58
  delta or like kind of the start of the delta in the flat lands,
• 32:01
  in the middle of summer to, so it's hot.
• 32:03
  It's hot, it's muggy. We've got a big Barracks.
• 32:07
  Oh, just a big metal building does have air conditioner.
• 32:10
  So it wasn't like we were sitting there 110-degree heat.
• 32:12
  But, you know, and it's a big wide room with.
• 32:15
  I think about 120 to 130, cots all lined up in rows, you know,
• 32:21
  imagine the size of half of like 50 yards wide and 30 yards,
• 32:25
  deep. Throes of cots.
• 32:27
  And then a Command Center in the middle kind of, with a glass
• 32:29
  where all the guards, you know, the drill instructors set.
• 32:33
  So, if military-style it for drill instructors, at any given
• 32:36
  time and they ran through and different shifts result, you
• 32:39
  know? And then we're organized into
• 32:42
  flight. So, 120 or so.
• 32:44
  People think there was five flights groups of inmates that
• 32:49
  were in and they goes be flight. I remember.
• 32:51
  And so you're like, that's your, that's your unit.
• 32:55
  So it's Just discipline and building patients.
• 32:59
  Really the real like a dependent on the shift.
• 33:03
  Some shifts were really active of drill instructors.
• 33:05
  That really cared. Like there was one that like you
• 33:07
  could tell really wanted was a never Rehabilitation and they
• 33:10
  wanted they wanted to beat some sense into these kids up.
• 33:13
  Not usually physically but and and would actually give some
• 33:19
  some drill you do pt and workout.
• 33:23
  You do education on certain Topics like little classes and
• 33:27
  stuff like that, but that was only one of the three.
• 33:30
  The other two were not really there for rehabilitation.
• 33:32
  They were there for a paycheck. Yeah.
• 33:34
  Some of them weren't very far from their active duty.
• 33:36
  So all the drill instructors were were actual military
• 33:40
  members. It was an Air Force boot camp.
• 33:42
  So we followed their first Joel manual, but we had drill
• 33:44
  instructors in the Marines, Army the Air Force, the Navy, and
• 33:49
  some of them were not there for the right reasons.
• 33:53
  So they would kind of power trip.
• 33:54
  And so we About 3:30 a.m. everyday and Whitey.
• 33:58
  Tighties stood up and counted. You know, everybody goes to the
• 34:01
  bathroom the same time you shower and ships together, you
• 34:04
  know, you do. You can't, you know, if you want
• 34:08
  to say anything you say, you do a search sandwich, which is
• 34:12
  like, from the movies with actually do in military prison.
• 34:14
  This particular prison boot camp to say, sir, you can say, I did
• 34:17
  refer yourself as this inmates answer.
• 34:19
  This inmate request to utilize the latrine sir?
• 34:24
  Yeah, it's a wait. We got in 20 minutes, sit back
• 34:27
  down. So there is some days where it
• 34:30
  was drill and TT and actual activities.
• 34:34
  And there was more days than that where it was all waking
• 34:37
  hours except for going to the mess hall.
• 34:39
  We're sitting on a cot with nothing.
• 34:42
  You did in your lab like three photos.
• 34:44
  You have the Bible and a drill manual.
• 34:46
  We couldn't read them except for certain times and you get a
• 34:48
  major major disciplinary, which you get three and you're out.
• 34:51
  You get a major disciplinary if you fall asleep.
• 34:53
  Wow. So it was a lot of time to
• 34:55
  sitting there like that. Like I am now with no back.
• 34:57
  Rest for three months. Just how did airing thinking
• 35:01
  like mentally? How did you handle that?
• 35:05
  Andrew what was your? Because you you had just gotten
• 35:09
  something that had to have been like you felt like you'd won the
• 35:13
  lottery. You get one from you know
• 35:16
  possibly looking at 40 years 20 years of 10 then you get this
• 35:19
  prison boot camp so your I know that your mind had to have been
• 35:23
  spending that you know there's all kinds of different things I
• 35:25
  was thinking 8 Two, ten years. Now, I'm thinking, if I can get
• 35:28
  through this bootcamp, what I can do to restart, but when you
• 35:30
  were going through that, how we did, you have strategies to get
• 35:34
  through it or were you just doing it?
• 35:37
  So, I mean, when I was in rehab, I got into meditation.
• 35:42
  One of the guys I was there with was very spiritual, and we went
• 35:45
  to some some Monastery, type environments and practice,
• 35:49
  medikit meditation, and I'm really grateful for him that I
• 35:53
  was like rooming with him at rehab rehab, and he brought me
• 35:55
  into that world and expose me to it because those skills of being
• 35:59
  able to kind of watch your thoughts or even transport
• 36:01
  yourself in some way to another place, which I mean kind of
• 36:04
  happens when you're in that situation with that much time to
• 36:07
  think. Think your mind will wander your
• 36:10
  will you will find ways to occupy your mind and I'm not
• 36:14
  much of a worrier and I think I don't know if it's I'm just
• 36:16
  wired a little bit wrong. I don't worry about things that
• 36:18
  much was just also can lead to things like what I did, right?
• 36:21
  I'm not like ruminating on the future and worrying about what
• 36:25
  happened at that time, like I was doing various things in my
• 36:29
  head to keep awake. And I remember doing things,
• 36:33
  repeatedly an exercise I would go through, would be to imagine
• 36:36
  myself back in my Making something to eat.
• 36:40
  It's like imagine myself on the couch and I would in
• 36:42
  excruciating detail. Like put myself, I'd tell myself
• 36:45
  what I was wearing, I'd get up. I'd look around the room and
• 36:48
  identify everything. I go to the refrigerator, I'd
• 36:50
  open it, I'd imagine what was in the fridge.
• 36:52
  I'd imagine making a sandwich and the details of it like is
• 36:56
  the grid takings, the other breads bad.
• 36:58
  Yeah. In Turkey on it and then, you
• 37:00
  know, toasting the Bunya, the bread and all that kind of stuff
• 37:03
  and just stuff like that lots of planning, right?
• 37:06
  Lot of like okay. Okay, but you can't write
• 37:07
  anything down in that situation. You have a little time to write
• 37:10
  a letter once a day but you can't like make notes about
• 37:14
  plans and have a grand design. It's all in your head so it's
• 37:17
  just, you know it's just dealing with boredom.
• 37:19
  I think I wrote in the post like, you know, boredoms really
• 37:21
  in your head you can entertain yourself when you can occupy
• 37:24
  your mind. Sure.
• 37:27
  And that's I think, did you feel like the use made any
• 37:31
  connections in there when they were going through that?
• 37:34
  Just kind of raw boot camp world?
• 37:37
  Whether there were and so when you get out on in Arkansas, on
• 37:44
  this particular program, which unfortunately I think is is not
• 37:46
  funded anymore. Trying to end it on that out but
• 37:49
  you got on a special parole it's more intense.
• 37:52
  You go to more meetings with your parole officer, you go that
• 37:54
  you do more drug tests, you do more, all that kind of stuff.
• 37:56
  And you're expressly forbidden from having any contact with
• 37:59
  people that you were locked up with.
• 38:02
  But that being said, I and I didn't afterwards but there were
• 38:05
  people that I was locked up with All the ways people that I went
• 38:07
  from Washington County, Jail to all the way to prison to boot
• 38:11
  camp with there was two peoples particular.
• 38:13
  That I knew that were highly intelligent.
• 38:16
  They were nothing there. No back, they were not from
• 38:17
  similar background to me but they were just really great
• 38:20
  people. I had more conversations on
• 38:23
  stuff that I learned about a philosophy with the particular
• 38:25
  guy in jail with your boot camp. When we could, then he was just
• 38:30
  brilliant. Don't you think bigger
• 38:34
  misconceptions Andrew? And I notice you had written
• 38:38
  about this in your in your post is that there's some really
• 38:42
  smart people, maybe they weren't doing something illegal, but
• 38:47
  they were dealing with, you know, sales distribution
• 38:50
  commissions, you know, the whole network of what you have to do
• 38:55
  to build a company. If you know, if you could plug
• 38:58
  those people into Society on the legal side, there's so much that
• 39:02
  they can offer because their mind is already wired
• 39:05
  intelligently. To make those things work and I
• 39:08
  think that's where there's it's a it gets somewhat short sighted
• 39:12
  by saying okay well those people are in prison or they sold drugs
• 39:15
  or they did this but and I ran across quite a few people that
• 39:19
  were smart people. Yeah, and it's just a lot of it
• 39:24
  comes from opportunities of really smart people that are in
• 39:27
  a bad situation. They don't have the ability to
• 39:29
  kind of work their way through the legal system, the way that
• 39:33
  it can be done. And like I said we are, but I
• 39:35
  was fortunate for this, you know, they're just stuck there
• 39:39
  and there's wasted talent and wasted opportunity.
• 39:42
  Lot of times all I need is a chance or a place to land
• 39:45
  because that's the other thing is like when you get out of
• 39:47
  prison, I was able to go to my dad's house and stay and have
• 39:51
  food shelter and supportive environment, right?
• 39:54
  A lot of people get picked up by somebody who hands in the joint,
• 39:57
  you know, and not saying like we begin to think about prison but
• 40:00
  like that's the environment, they're going back right into
• 40:02
  right? The environment to live in there
• 40:05
  in the first place. I have a hard time, you know.
• 40:06
  Finding a place to live. Yeah.
• 40:09
  Well Richard John's, they will, you know, if it's theirs and I
• 40:13
  that's the other thing I noticed in your post, you brought a lot
• 40:17
  of people out that wanted Talk about what they did for
• 40:20
  ex-felons, you know that this, I remember there was one guy who
• 40:23
  said we make it a point in our company to hire ex-felons and we
• 40:28
  don't ask about their background.
• 40:29
  There was a lot of people that came forward and I think, you
• 40:32
  know, by doing what you did with your post, it allows people to
• 40:35
  express themselves on things that they're trying to do to
• 40:38
  help. Whereas if that's not ever
• 40:40
  expressed out there at all, kind of is under under the covers of
• 40:44
  you don't really know about it, but I want to go back to Andrew
• 40:47
  with. Going through getting close to
• 40:50
  knowing you're getting out. What's going through your head?
• 40:56
  I mean, you know, everybody knows that's inherently, I think
• 41:01
  our stimuli but time is relative, it's very true.
• 41:03
  So like your experience the time has a lot to do with your
• 41:05
  situation and 105 days in that situation felt like so much
• 41:10
  longer than it was. It's as you get closer to the
• 41:12
  end. There's some things that happen
• 41:14
  like you when you get a prisoner seems you have to do is forms.
• 41:17
  You have to fill out. There's like you can test
• 41:18
  yourself for like HIV and only things you know, like there's
• 41:21
  like there's a process to get out of prisons like those things
• 41:24
  started. And that's when it started to
• 41:25
  feel really real. Even though, like, 15 days out,
• 41:28
  right? Two days.
• 41:28
  And then really what I was worried about is I had just by
• 41:33
  nature of being, you know, even on good behavior and boot camp.
• 41:35
  And I had several of those major discipline areas, right?
• 41:38
  I had it had to go to review three to say, please don't kick
• 41:42
  me out of boot camp because if you get three, you're kicked
• 41:44
  out. You go back to General
• 41:45
  population, you serve all your time.
• 41:46
  You don't get a second chance at this boot camp.
• 41:49
  And so, I was already on, like, don't screw up and I can go
• 41:53
  there were none of it was bad. It was like I was washing the
• 41:55
  windows that was told to on the outside of the barracks as part
• 41:57
  of the chores. But then they called called
• 42:00
  count. And I was they called Counting.
• 42:01
  I was outside the building which is like a serious violation.
• 42:04
  You know who ordered the order to do it, right?
• 42:08
  The order to do it but the superior officer of the guy who
• 42:11
  ordered it to me, didn't I got m-80s that stuff like that?
• 42:14
  I have smiled and in drill because the guy next to me was
• 42:17
  like, singing like Creed on the, on the, like the chant.
• 42:21
  The way we call the cadence song, you just making it a Big
• 42:24
  Show and I I'm getting ready to smash.
• 42:25
  My point was, I was already on like, then I get kicked out and
• 42:28
  there's two weeks left. So I was more thinking about
• 42:30
  like, don't breathe wrong, don't fart, don't fart when a drill
• 42:34
  instructor walks by because that actually can get you in trouble
• 42:36
  if it's just dumb stuff. So like, you know, I was just
• 42:40
  like, okay, do not screw it up, don't mess it up like this, two
• 42:43
  more weeks you can do this. And in, there's probably an
• 42:47
  experience. I've never really talked to me
• 42:49
  about this but I'm sure it's Common is like when I was
• 42:53
  getting out like, being discharged yet, this whole
• 42:55
  process, right? And get your clothes back, my
• 42:57
  parents, actually, I didn't have clothes, I can't double.
• 42:58
  I, my parents bought me stuff to put on a put on street clothes.
• 43:01
  The first time, which is spelled amazing Universal, to
• 43:05
  destruction of clothes. My parents could have brought me
• 43:06
  like think that warrants like, eighth grade.
• 43:09
  But anyway, I was in street clothes and I thought it did not
• 43:11
  become real until we were off the prison grounds.
• 43:14
  Like I walked out the first gate.
• 43:16
  I'm like, okay they could still for some reason.
• 43:19
  I don't know why, but I wish I was sure they were going to Back
• 43:21
  in for some Paraguay or something like your do it.
• 43:24
  So the second gate and then we got like watching the parking
• 43:27
  lot with oh my God but they're still at our right there.
• 43:29
  You know. Get in the car.
• 43:30
  It wasn't until we drove all the way out to the prison farm all
• 43:33
  the way off the farm and onto a highway that I like took a
• 43:35
  breath out. Yeah.
• 43:36
  Like it didn't feel real until I was off prison property.
• 43:40
  Yeah. Like it was developed at any
• 43:42
  point they could just bring me back.
• 43:45
  So anyway, let's talk about let's talk about Andrew you get
• 43:48
  back into life. You've done your The time at
• 43:52
  this boot camp and I've heard about these boot camps, there's
• 43:55
  nothing easy about these boot camps and they make it hard on
• 43:57
  purpose because they're giving you less time.
• 43:59
  So they're going to see. You're going to Haze you to see
• 44:01
  if you can make it, but you seems like that you didn't want
• 44:08
  to waste any time when you got out.
• 44:10
  What was what was going through your mind, as far as your plan,
• 44:14
  and what you were doing, what you were thinking at that point.
• 44:18
  Yeah. I, you know, part of what had
• 44:20
  happened to me over the course of that time, was a lot of
• 44:23
  self-reflection and planning, and it actually does a lot into
• 44:26
  the brand that I've built the values that were built on, but I
• 44:29
  didn't know it at the time. And it was this idea that which
• 44:33
  is in your life is short, right? The Swedish stand.
• 44:36
  Yeah, I wrote it down. Answer one.
• 44:38
  Who live lives lives? Neat?
• 44:40
  I die in stands for one who lives life fully it.
• 44:42
  Is that, you know, this idea that like, I didn't want to
• 44:45
  waste time like, time is precious.
• 44:47
  The one thing you can't get back, you know, life is short.
• 44:50
  And so, as you look back and you get this advice from people and
• 44:53
  he did prison to go into the advice from people that for the
• 44:56
  solicitor or not. And you always hear, you know,
• 44:59
  you never look back and miss the like when you're basically when
• 45:03
  you're on your deathbed, not going to think about the things
• 45:05
  you own or going to think about the people you knew and the
• 45:06
  experiences you had. So to me it was I took that to
• 45:10
  heart and got you know I want to You can't get their life, not
• 45:15
  acquiring things are managing things that I wanted to have an
• 45:17
  experience filled life in the outdoors, with friends and
• 45:19
  family. You know, I wanted to get my
• 45:21
  education, I wanted to have knowledge and my head and be
• 45:24
  able to keep on using my mind. And basically, the experience is
• 45:28
  over stuff and this is what became lives in.
• 45:30
  But at the time it was just okay, I got to get this back on
• 45:33
  track and be able to set up the best life I can and, you know,
• 45:37
  considering what I've done and so I got out and went to Other
• 45:42
  my, my dad's like I said, and I got accepted right after that.
• 45:48
  I rolled at the local community college.
• 45:51
  So I did a couple semesters there and got straight A's and
• 45:54
  Community College. Got some more credits that
• 45:56
  already had like 80 some odd credits from underground.
• 46:01
  What their earned. Some I would say.
• 46:03
  Um, just because I wanted to, I did like Wilderness first
• 46:05
  responder training and stuff like that because I wanted to
• 46:07
  get my woman that's first. Responder license, and that's
• 46:10
  cool. But I got good enough grades to
• 46:12
  get back. And I readmitted to University
• 46:14
  of Arkansas had to go to the, you know, the committee for
• 46:18
  readmission. And actually, this is the first
• 46:20
  time that I had to explain my criminal background, right?
• 46:22
  Because that was something that came up on that as background
• 46:25
  checks, I do you know, first time explaining I wanted to get
• 46:28
  an apartment. So I had, you know, had a friend
• 46:30
  in Fayetteville he was except what we are forced.
• 46:34
  Yeah and you know officer going to officer training school and
• 46:38
  seem like a good person to really can't live with that
• 46:40
  point. We got an apartment at explain
• 46:42
  it again, you know, cap on the application and a lot of times
• 46:46
  in rent to you because of that, you know, that's a lot of people
• 46:50
  and we were we weren't at a super nice apartment complex.
• 46:54
  I think about that though about this some on this show is that
• 47:02
  The ex-felon is the last breed of individuals in the United
• 47:06
  States that it's legal to discriminate against.
• 47:09
  Almost everyone else, jerk a knot.
• 47:11
  It's illegal to discriminate, but you can legally discriminate
• 47:15
  against an ex-felon and whether it's living or job or whatever.
• 47:20
  And that's just something that you have to work with and you
• 47:24
  have to have the story and the passion and whatever to get
• 47:26
  through that. So that they feel that you're
• 47:28
  different. Right, and you're right.
• 47:33
  It's it's a very complex problem.
• 47:36
  Rather does reasons of those rules exist and you know, some
• 47:39
  of them to bark at people. But when you consider the United
• 47:42
  States incarcerate more people than anywhere in the world, you
• 47:44
  realize how many people are wandering around a felony
• 47:47
  record. You can't think that all of them
• 47:49
  are terrible people and deserve this, right?
• 47:51
  Like, they're there and they want the end.
• 47:53
  Like, my, my experience isn't necessarily representative.
• 47:57
  I didn't look like I did and it wasn't to clean.
• 48:00
  You know why guys walking in to tell the story, may have been a
• 48:06
  different experience than someone else.
• 48:07
  Getting out of prison, trying to get an apartment that doesn't
• 48:10
  look like me or talk, like me and things like that.
• 48:11
  So, I just, I think it can't be overstated that.
• 48:14
  Like, I don't think that it was, I don't diminish anything.
• 48:18
  I did like, there's personal choice and people with a lot of
• 48:20
  privilege and up in prison all the time or just or just screwed
• 48:23
  up and not doing anything with the life of there, has to be
• 48:25
  your personal like the driving motivation to get that done.
• 48:28
  But also combined With you know, having the support.
• 48:32
  Yeah. That's um, we don't have like it
• 48:34
  made my story possible so I don't want to harp on that but
• 48:38
  it just as people want to tell my story as part of like a
• 48:41
  diversity equity and inclusion conversation always want to
• 48:44
  point out. Like it's great if we can shed
• 48:47
  Awareness on what you just said that ex-felons can be
• 48:50
  discriminated against the, there should be more opportunity that
• 48:52
  it shouldn't be set up to put someone back in prison because
• 48:54
  it is, that's great. But I don't want my story to be
• 48:58
  told to a bunch of people that Up and, you know, the worst
• 49:02
  conditions in Chicago, you know, drop right back into the
• 49:06
  sessions and say, look at this guy, he made it look at you
• 49:09
  know, you see me as an example because they're, you know,
• 49:11
  they're not going to get it. They're not going to say, oh,
• 49:12
  I'm just like him, I can do that too, right?
• 49:14
  But like I said, if we can, if we can if my story can eliminate
• 49:19
  more people that would listen at the policy level that people are
• 49:23
  going through this and running into these roadblocks.
• 49:26
  And it's having a serious effect on like economic output for your
• 49:29
  hair. Region, they do things like
• 49:30
  biscuits. You can tell a story in ways
• 49:32
  that it can be heard by people that have the levers of control,
• 49:35
  then that's where I'm comfortable.
• 49:37
  You know, telling my story and trying to make it more than just
• 49:40
  mine. Yeah, but like I said, I told my
• 49:41
  story like thermae, you know, I told my story because I wanted
• 49:43
  this to be out on my terms, I wanted people to know so I
• 49:47
  didn't feel like I was hiding from some some body or group of
• 49:50
  people or the business community.
• 49:52
  And if there's a good side effect to that and that makes me
• 49:55
  happy, oh, I think there's a great side effect of that.
• 49:58
  I think there's there's two different things Do it Andrew I
• 50:00
  think one is it gives you your power back to your own story?
• 50:04
  You're telling the story the way you want to tell it and the
• 50:07
  narrative is not written for you of how someone else is already
• 50:11
  decided that they're going to couch that story.
• 50:15
  The way that you tell it, the passion that you tell it where
• 50:17
  the courage that comes out that your humble of, but you're the
• 50:20
  humility and the willingness to hit rock bottom and make a
• 50:26
  choice. You know, so many people hit
• 50:28
  rock bottom and that Becomes the fetal position, they stay in and
• 50:32
  then there's other people that hit rock bottom and say I'm
• 50:34
  going to survive this. I'm going to get better.
• 50:36
  I'm going to, I'm going to do the things that I need to do to
• 50:39
  make things happen for me. Those are things that people are
• 50:42
  looking for that. A lot of our society is lost
• 50:46
  because it's kind of become a victim Society.
• 50:48
  I think the more we hear stories of people taking their situation
• 50:53
  and no one's perfect. How do you take that situation
• 50:55
  and walk through the fears to get where you want to be?
• 50:59
  And that That's that's common across the thread.
• 51:03
  You don't you can be and I've had a lot of different people on
• 51:06
  this show. It doesn't matter where you came
• 51:09
  from. Everybody wants to know that
• 51:10
  there's a glimmer of hope if they just try and do the best
• 51:13
  they can to get through. And I think that's, that's what
• 51:16
  it's inspiring to me. To hear your story.
• 51:19
  I grasp onto immediately and the other thing is that there's so
• 51:23
  many people out there. They have a hiccup a mistake
• 51:31
  something in their background and if it's if it's a felony,
• 51:36
  you have to carry that with you regardless it doesn't matter
• 51:39
  what you do and the rest of your life, you will always have that.
• 51:42
  It's, you know, I always say when you get as an ex-felon, you
• 51:45
  are carrying a life sentence with you regardless, you just
• 51:48
  have to learn how to work with it.
• 51:51
  And that's what I think is really cool.
• 51:52
  About your story is you've worked with it, and so you go to
• 51:57
  Edge. You do well.
• 52:01
  I know that you find the love of your life, but I don't know how
• 52:04
  you did that. How did that come about?
• 52:06
  So, yeah, and, you know, my wife is as much more private than I
• 52:12
  am. So I had to, you know, respect
• 52:13
  her her privacy, you know, as much as possible and situations
• 52:18
  like this, but we were dating and before.
• 52:19
  So we were dating in college and this time we had broken up when
• 52:22
  things got really bad, it's a period of time when I got really
• 52:25
  bad and ended up, you know, doing what I I didn't go to
• 52:27
  prison, we were not together as a couple we were you know we
• 52:30
  still wrote letters every once in a while and and when I was
• 52:34
  locked up but you know for her own mental health she had sir
• 52:38
  shouldn't let me go now when I when I got out and it was on
• 52:42
  this path as I was at University of Arkansas is go back for
• 52:46
  wretch Recreation sports management.
• 52:48
  My goal at the time was to be a mountain manager.
• 52:50
  I wanted to move to like Keystone or Breckenridge and be
• 52:52
  the person in charge of all-mountain operations.
• 52:53
  That was like high school. I can have any job you know.
• 52:57
  Figured out, you know, they make, you know, well over six
• 52:59
  figures a year in an admin. If, you know, office job at your
• 53:02
  job is to get out the oven out. Is that like that to me would
• 53:05
  like Pinnacle. It still is a great that when
• 53:07
  it's a great idea and different that going there with that was
• 53:10
  in my head is, like, I'm gonna go to this.
• 53:11
  This is my in, going to get rekt manager, and I'm gonna move out
• 53:14
  west. I'm going to be a lefty for a
• 53:15
  while. I work on the ski lift and just
• 53:17
  work my way up with a degree that.
• 53:19
  So I was my plan along. That way, a friend that I want
• 53:25
  my old roommates at the time actually.
• 53:26
  It Is working as a co-founder for a company called Fayette
• 53:29
  July Fayetteville, which is this, like lifestyle outdoor
• 53:31
  apparel brand mainly branded t-shirts but we expanded into
• 53:34
  all sorts of, you know, full on Outdoor Clothing.
• 53:37
  And I was working at the University of Arkansas in the
• 53:39
  bookstore, doing receiving shipping, and receiving kind of
• 53:42
  in deliveries and stuff. So I had some experience, and
• 53:45
  he's like, they need, we need someone to come and work in our
• 53:48
  warehouse and help pick it back orders.
• 53:50
  And so, I took that opportunity full-time job with a salary that
• 53:54
  kind of stuff. Never had that.
• 53:57
  Startup never been in that situation and couldn't do full
• 54:02
  time school and full-time working at the same time.
• 54:04
  So, I actually transferred from University of Arkansas, to John
• 54:06
  Brown University, for a night school program.
• 54:09
  It is. This is for managers two year
• 54:13
  program that if you had over 60 hours of credit, you could do
• 54:16
  this two year program and night school and Management's its
• 54:18
  organizational management undergrad.
• 54:20
  It's kinda like an Executive MBA program sort of but for
• 54:23
  undergrad and ended up finishing getting my Grad in
• 54:28
  organizational management from jbu while working through
• 54:31
  Fayetteville. And at that point I went from
• 54:34
  kind of Warehouse to warehouse manager to do web and Logistics,
• 54:39
  like website to be the CEO and then eventually served as a CEO
• 54:45
  of that company for about a year and a half-ish, about a year
• 54:50
  year and a half and CEO of doing kind of running.
• 54:52
  Most of the moving Parts. One of the, the guy who actually
• 54:55
  founded it. Outfitted a sprinter van to live
• 54:59
  in with his, with his girlfriend at the time, or maybe fiance any
• 55:03
  of the girlfriend and then, and they're very now.
• 55:05
  But they took a trip around the United States for about a year
• 55:08
  and a half, and I manage the company.
• 55:09
  Well, you did that, wow. So through that point, we, you
• 55:14
  know, my wife and I, she was living in Little Rock and doing
• 55:19
  doing corporate work, and we started talking again and
• 55:23
  started dating again, basically agree, starting a relationship
• 55:26
  and that's a very tender Process.
• 55:27
  And she decided to move back up, north Arkansas, and take another
• 55:31
  job up here. The big company up here, and we
• 55:34
  got married and bought a house. And I was working full time, you
• 55:39
  know, and doing all this and started that, you know, already
• 55:42
  started the process. But that's when, you know,
• 55:44
  things became very clear that this was in the past and we can
• 55:47
  build something on top of. Yeah, this that wasn't wasn't
• 55:50
  damaged. And I still have lots of friends
• 55:52
  and pay the like I said, like I wasn't actually like a sleazy
• 55:55
  Prime and other, you can't be a great.
• 55:57
  A person when you go through all that but I wasn't an asshole.
• 55:59
  Right? You know, I still had friends
• 56:01
  but I didn't burn all my bridges.
• 56:02
  You know there's obviously I changed my phone number while I
• 56:04
  got out as a whole group people. I did not contact again but
• 56:07
  those all group of people from college that were from high
• 56:09
  school, you know, that I still knew and still really close with
• 56:12
  today. And so we had a social group and
• 56:15
  you still do and we're only 20 minutes, north of stable now
• 56:18
  have been built. Yeah, and so when you got
• 56:22
  started with the idea of lives in did because you had been in A
• 56:27
  start-up I guess that probably helped you understand what the
• 56:31
  steps were that needed to happen for you to become a Founder CEO
• 56:35
  of your own brand. It was like an MBA, you know,
• 56:39
  and it's all my dad told me when I was working there.
• 56:41
  He's like, it don't matter. If you don't get paid, a lot of
• 56:43
  you're getting a real world and yeah, right.
• 56:44
  Like there's nothing better than than being a part of a business.
• 56:48
  That's growing to learn how to do it on your own terms and a
• 56:53
  lot of that experience led to learning, but that influence
• 56:56
  what I'm doing today, and it's just like anyone about hiring
• 56:58
  people. And you learn about, you know,
• 57:00
  how to on board employees and you learn about, you know, how
• 57:03
  to set up a structure and responsibilities and roles.
• 57:06
  Can you tell Go wrong, right? You just you do the wrong
• 57:09
  things? Yeah, several times you kind of
• 57:11
  have an idea about how to do it, right?
• 57:13
  And we've done all of our own new wrong things that lives in
• 57:16
  based on New Path. But we've avoided a lot of the
• 57:18
  things that I think that we went through there that, which is a
• 57:20
  young company problems, but everybody has, but I was able to
• 57:24
  kind of Ride Along and deal with and manage the without the added
• 57:27
  burden of being the, you know, the owner.
• 57:30
  And I have a lot of empathy towards the that individual.
• 57:33
  Now having now going through it myself and being on the The kind
• 57:37
  of side of where everything's on you or I was CEO for a group of
• 57:40
  owners, you know, somewhat different.
• 57:42
  Yes, Nuance. But the different level of
• 57:44
  responsibility. So what do you see with your
• 57:46
  company? Because you guys are kind of up
• 57:48
  and coming and Outdoors and just continue to grow.
• 57:55
  Yeah I mean we're one thing I learned in it maybe it has
• 57:58
  something to do with my experience through all the legal
• 58:00
  stuff to is that Foundation you build upon its most important
• 58:03
  thing. So you know, when I started
• 58:05
  this, it was very much like, you know, raise some capital and it
• 58:07
  was I'm not going to go push sales this year.
• 58:10
  It was I'm going to build a foundation.
• 58:12
  We're going to build a brand the visual brand but also more
• 58:14
  importantly like what it means why we're doing.
• 58:17
  We're doing and build a really solid product and wait until
• 58:20
  that product is good before we get a launch so that we don't
• 58:23
  ruin the launch. Subpar product and because, you
• 58:26
  know, where we're going. And what our plan is to be the
• 58:29
  best in the industry not second. Best not, you know, not not
• 58:35
  Middle Market or lower pack em in.
• 58:37
  So, the way you build something for that kind of, you know,
• 58:41
  reputation is different. And so I spent a lot of time on
• 58:44
  the foundation and and now we're growing fast that Foundation
• 58:48
  strong. And I feel like, we're, we are
• 58:51
  ready to go. We are, we're putting gas on it,
• 58:53
  I can tell you the things are Even quick the, the things that
• 58:57
  lives in, they've got a Peril, what all, what all can somebody
• 59:01
  get from love zone. So we're, you know, we're
• 59:04
  outdoor apparel. We've really focused on pants
• 59:07
  pants and shorts. So, and it's, we went there,
• 59:10
  some, some, we're cool. If you want to go to the site is
• 59:15
  called lives in designs. You can just go to lives.
• 59:20
  In.com allies DSM. It will redirect you there, cool
• 59:23
  stuff. So yeah, I mean like We do, we
• 59:25
  do pants. We did in our whole goal and
• 59:27
  everything about lives. In is based on this idea of
• 59:29
  creating products for this lives guitar, this person who lives
• 59:32
  life fully. And so like, if you are going to
• 59:34
  chase it experience, filled life in the outdoors, you know, what
• 59:37
  are, what are you wearing? What are you buying?
• 59:39
  What are the things that facilitate that that kind of
• 59:41
  life? And that's the clothes we make.
• 59:43
  And so we started with pants more from a passion project for
• 59:45
  me because I just didn't find I could not pants that but it well
• 59:49
  the kind of did what I wanted them to do at the same time.
• 59:51
  And so we focus on early tailored fit Good durable
• 59:55
  materials. Very sustainable is everything
• 59:57
  we do is designed to be repaired.
• 1:00:00
  Designed to be repairable. It's time to be tough.
• 1:00:03
  It's all organic cotton recycled polyester recycling.
• 1:00:06
  My lawn to everything is environmentally friendly.
• 1:00:09
  We don't do plastic packaging, it's all well packed with paper.
• 1:00:12
  We do everything we can to build a company the right way.
• 1:00:14
  Yeah. And build a product, and then
• 1:00:16
  care for that product all the way to its end of life.
• 1:00:18
  So like, we just basically had this idea that once we sell it
• 1:00:20
  to you, if not, you're just not your fault or it's still our
• 1:00:23
  problem, like we created that Brought into the world and we
• 1:00:25
  use the resources to do it with the time.
• 1:00:28
  I love that energy. So we want to see it have a long
• 1:00:32
  service life and once again it was all kind of back to this
• 1:00:35
  philosophy of not not creating low quality things because, you
• 1:00:40
  know, waste is, you know, the biggest issue we have liked
• 1:00:43
  about, it was I don't political or not, like we're kind of
• 1:00:47
  destroying our home and so it's not a lot about like, what the
• 1:00:52
  things made out of in my mind. Like, Has an ability and usually
• 1:00:55
  wrapped up and whether it's recycled organic or whatever.
• 1:00:58
  It's did that product. Anybody need it in the first
• 1:01:00
  place? It's something else.
• 1:01:01
  Do it just as well. Write.
• 1:01:03
  And then is it made the last like you can make something out
• 1:01:06
  of? Like, you know, that not only is
• 1:01:09
  it just like of the world's worst materials, but if it lasts
• 1:01:12
  for a lifetime, it does its job. Well, then let's good.
• 1:01:15
  Hell yeah, it's the most sustainable thing.
• 1:01:16
  You could possibly make. Yeah.
• 1:01:17
  Because it lasted and then there's also a cultural side of
• 1:01:21
  this. And so we look for customers and
• 1:01:23
  people that have already made this choice, The internet, the
• 1:01:26
  other side of it yet to kind of choose to not that's yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:30
  It's a to not be so consumption-driven and you have
• 1:01:34
  to consume its. What I'm getting at is you want
• 1:01:35
  to get that. You have to consume to be
• 1:01:36
  somebody at the own things. It's just like if you're going
• 1:01:39
  to swallow that pill, what can we do next, right?
• 1:01:43
  But you have to consume. You have to do things.
• 1:01:44
  How can you do it in such a way that?
• 1:01:46
  And I like your idea of the planet be the best at what was
• 1:01:50
  in that category. Don't try to just fit in and say
• 1:01:53
  that will be the middle. Level torpid.
• 1:01:56
  We're just going to be the best at all in that category and
• 1:01:58
  knowing that we do what we do because this is why we do it.
• 1:02:01
  I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:04
  There there's there's some I guess hubris there but it's in a
• 1:02:10
  the my point is like we're not going to be the best now.
• 1:02:14
  Like I think we make the best pants in the industry now, but
• 1:02:17
  we're not like it, take, it takes time, it takes us
• 1:02:19
  credibility, it takes at-bats, and iteration.
• 1:02:21
  But I think the foundation that I was talking about this, I The
• 1:02:24
  of how we build and how we create how we operate as a
• 1:02:27
  company is designed to lead us to believe that one day.
• 1:02:30
  What's your side really can't? You can't be the best unless you
• 1:02:33
  set out to have that as a foundation of what you're
• 1:02:38
  building to because everybody then buys into that and believes
• 1:02:43
  in what you're doing because that's the path.
• 1:02:45
  The the best of whatever that is, everybody starts to live
• 1:02:49
  that that's, that's the feel. There's so many different.
• 1:02:52
  The, it's a mindset to, you know, No, it's the old, you
• 1:02:56
  know, Henry Ford quote, whether you think you can, or you think
• 1:02:58
  you can't, you're right. That's also how you build a
• 1:03:00
  company, you know? It's it's it's how you feel, how
• 1:03:04
  you build a foundation, what those people feel, how you
• 1:03:07
  reward, those people, what they feel about you and how you feel
• 1:03:10
  about them. All those things, make that
• 1:03:13
  foundation of the company of whatever that is.
• 1:03:15
  And you can walk into any company and feel that Vibe,
• 1:03:18
  either feel that or you don't and it's because somebody's
• 1:03:21
  worked on it, and that's it's not easy.
• 1:03:25
  If it was there would be a lot of companies, just blowing it up
• 1:03:28
  and being the best man. It's not easy and not everybody
• 1:03:32
  has to do it either. At like it's just for me
• 1:03:34
  personally, if I was going to, I knew I know myself well enough
• 1:03:40
  to know that am are maintained passion for something and I'm
• 1:03:42
  going to maintain intellectual interest and want to really keep
• 1:03:46
  trying. I need to be really interested
• 1:03:47
  in it. Yeah.
• 1:03:48
  You know what? I need to.
• 1:03:48
  I need to I need a love it. Yep.
• 1:03:50
  And by building it this way, I love the thing we're building
• 1:03:54
  and You know, I don't want to, I don't want to ever lose that and
• 1:03:57
  but the kind of gets back to what I said before.
• 1:04:00
  Not everybody needs to do that. Not everybody has to like a lot
• 1:04:03
  of people are in a situation where you just need to make ends
• 1:04:04
  meet for your family and you may you know do a low price, you
• 1:04:09
  know, bottom Market Plumbing Service for your region and
• 1:04:13
  price yourself lower and kind of you know work at that same kind
• 1:04:16
  of level but like it's honorable right?
• 1:04:19
  So like you don't I don't act like it's for all sorts of
• 1:04:21
  things. It's just you on that and and
• 1:04:23
  you don't have to be great. Just, you know, for people that
• 1:04:25
  make a product and then I'm involved in entrepreneurship
• 1:04:28
  Community here and in other places and talked, a lot of
• 1:04:31
  young people and they want to make something.
• 1:04:34
  And it's like the only challenge I say is like just just don't
• 1:04:36
  make something that's copy. Yeah, make something, but do it
• 1:04:39
  unique, you know. Yeah matter what.
• 1:04:41
  Yeah, I can be little marketing and Market just don't make it.
• 1:04:44
  Tell you doing going to manufacture and finding a
• 1:04:47
  product that's previously made and putting your logo on it and
• 1:04:50
  relying on a brand and your brand is are working with
• 1:04:52
  differentiated. That's why I kind of His
• 1:04:55
  interest in helping somebody because they're not trying to
• 1:04:57
  actually add them trying to just kind of make a buck off when it
• 1:05:00
  didn't need to be existing. So anyway, I'm on kind of on a
• 1:05:02
  soapbox now but it's you know, no.
• 1:05:05
  I don't want to be pompous about it.
• 1:05:07
  Now you're speaking my language and like you said, if somebody
• 1:05:10
  wants to be in a mid-level and on that category there's a whole
• 1:05:13
  world for that there's there's there's all kinds of different
• 1:05:15
  ways to make yourself into the brand.
• 1:05:18
  You want to be the culture, you want to be and and on that
• 1:05:23
  category it just depends on where Are you want to fit into
• 1:05:25
  the market? That's that was, that's what
• 1:05:28
  makes the world go around and capitalism Works.
• 1:05:32
  Andrew, this has been a really cool conversation.
• 1:05:34
  I was thinking, looking at all these different things along
• 1:05:38
  your journey. Always ask everybody, you know,
• 1:05:41
  what after they look back on this journey that they've been
• 1:05:44
  on, what do you think? Is your biggest takeaway that
• 1:05:47
  you shared to the listeners through what you've gone
• 1:05:49
  through? You know, that's a good
• 1:05:54
  question, I think. Think I'm lucky and it isn't
• 1:05:59
  Maybe. Like I've said, what I mean by
• 1:06:04
  that is that I did? What I did.
• 1:06:06
  No one got hurt. I got off in the best possible
• 1:06:09
  way that you could having done something like that and being
• 1:06:11
  guilty of it, right? So like, and that the gravity of
• 1:06:16
  it was so serious in that. Like I said, looking down the
• 1:06:19
  barrel of 40 years at the minimum, a potentially life in
• 1:06:21
  prison, was serious enough for me to realize that was rock
• 1:06:25
  bottom, right? Like that.
• 1:06:26
  I had a rock bottom that I was able to be in a situation where
• 1:06:30
  I could, Realize that and make real change off of it without
• 1:06:34
  anybody getting hurt without losing.
• 1:06:36
  So, much of my life and without losing all my friends and family
• 1:06:39
  relationships. And so, like, I think I'm lucky
• 1:06:42
  that I did something so serious, and it didn't turn out, as bad
• 1:06:44
  as it could have because I could have done.
• 1:06:47
  You know, what I think about what scares me is that like if I
• 1:06:49
  didn't get caught? Yeah, I think if I was more
• 1:06:52
  sophisticated if I plan that better, if I was a, you know,
• 1:06:55
  and in like what would have happened next?
• 1:06:57
  If I didn't face any repercussions for what I did.
• 1:06:59
  So I'm lucky that I did it. Did it want known to her?
• 1:07:01
  Hurt. And It was serious enough to to
• 1:07:04
  and I, you know, kind of facility.
• 1:07:07
  The kind of change that I needed.
• 1:07:08
  Yeah, I think that's really that's thought-provoking.
• 1:07:11
  And I think it also leads us back to sometimes people hitting
• 1:07:16
  rock bottom, Can find their soul find themselves and that becomes
• 1:07:22
  everything that they wanted to be.
• 1:07:23
  They just had to get to that point where that decision was
• 1:07:27
  made and your decision was I'm going to do whatever I've got to
• 1:07:30
  do to make this work for me and you did he start stepping out of
• 1:07:34
  it. Now I'm in am looking at, you
• 1:07:36
  know what, you've been able to accomplish and the Cool brand
• 1:07:39
  that you're creating the just other lanch of support that
• 1:07:44
  you've had stepping out, controlling your story or
• 1:07:47
  narrative. Just a lot of really cool stuff
• 1:07:50
  Andrew and I feel I feel lucky. I got a chance to interview
• 1:07:53
  because I think this story is going to resonate with a lot of
• 1:07:57
  people out there that deal with that what we're talking about,
• 1:08:03
  you know, what do you do when you hit it and how do you step
• 1:08:07
  through it? How do you survive and how to
• 1:08:09
  adapt and you've done that and nothing's ever over either, is
• 1:08:13
  it? I mean you always have to
• 1:08:14
  continue to walk and and deal with whatever today presents you
• 1:08:17
  but the Tools of your past, you can use.
• 1:08:20
  And that's what you continue to do is, you know, your your past
• 1:08:25
  doesn't Define you but it certainly helps.
• 1:08:29
  You get through the rest of whatever we're going through.
• 1:08:33
  Yeah. And you know I guess another
• 1:08:36
  lesson is this perspective. Yeah, you kind of hit on it and
• 1:08:40
  like when you kind of been through all this when you've
• 1:08:42
  seen how bad it can be, it makes day-to-day challenges and
• 1:08:46
  especially in business and say what that does not seem as
• 1:08:49
  drastic as dry like things things can be so much worse, so
• 1:08:52
  much. I think that perspective there
• 1:08:54
  helps a little bit. I wear these.
• 1:08:56
  These three leather bands that I had a guy that made him for me
• 1:09:00
  when I was eleven worth. And, and I Nobody really knows
• 1:09:04
  this. I don't even talk about, it's
• 1:09:05
  just you. And I talked and Andrew with all
• 1:09:06
  these other people, but I look down sometimes on my wrist and
• 1:09:10
  think know it today is not as bad as I think it is.
• 1:09:12
  This is just a day that is need to get regret it and make it
• 1:09:16
  because there's been worse days and you know there's things that
• 1:09:19
  you know you you don't think about it all the time but it is
• 1:09:22
  a piece of you and it's not a bad thing.
• 1:09:24
  It's just a thing that I think it also steadies you grounds you
• 1:09:27
  and and keeps you human and definitely humble because you
• 1:09:32
  once you go through an experience, Like this, it
• 1:09:33
  definitely humbles you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:09:37
  This, there's a whole another conversation on the the prison
• 1:09:42
  intake system and what it does to you and all kind of stuff.
• 1:09:45
  So yeah, it's humbling humbling experiences that we don't need
• 1:09:48
  to get into it. You are so that you can feel it
• 1:09:55
  coming off of you. You can feel your freedom.
• 1:09:57
  Like just it's like a peels off of you as you walk through the
• 1:10:01
  intake, it's very humbling. Yeah, Andrew.
• 1:10:06
  Hey man, this was so cool. I want to tell everybody why
• 1:10:10
  we're out here. I'll do a little self promotion.
• 1:10:12
  If you need a book out there, I've got 19 more success, oil T,
• 1:10:17
  betrayal Life Behind Bars and finally getting free Memoir.
• 1:10:21
  That's me, check it out. On Amazon or Barnes Barnes &
• 1:10:24
  Noble. Love you guys on social media
• 1:10:28
  with the likes comments. Hey, they're doing a thing with
• 1:10:32
  with apple. If you can give me a review, Go
• 1:10:35
  down. Scroll down the page, click on
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  write a review. It really helps the show on
• 1:10:39
  promoting with apple. If you want to find out more
• 1:10:42
  about what's going on with me, where I'm speaking, what I'm
• 1:10:45
  doing, Brent caste.com, leave me a message.
• 1:10:49
  And as I used to say, when I was communicating back and forth
• 1:10:54
  with my true link emails, while I was 11 worth signing off, stay
• 1:10:59
  strong and I'll do the same. Thank you, Andrew.
• 1:11:03
  Thank you so much for the success that it out.
• 1:11:06
  Thanks.