Latest / Dadical / 5. Infertility, Adoption, and Deployment: When It's Not the Path You Expected | Jordan Phillips

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5. Infertility, Adoption, and Deployment: When It's Not the Path You Expected | Jordan Phillips · Dadical

• Seth Stoker: In today's episode, Jordan Phillips tells us that one of the biggest things that he learned from his dad, even though it drove him crazy when he was younger, was to take the road less travel. And that's exactly what Jordan did. After two deployments, years of infertility, and a failed round of in vitro, Jordan and his wife Amy weren't even sure if parenthood was in the cards for them. They had a different path, and that path ultimately led to adoption and finally led them to where they ended up with four kids and a beautiful family. Sometimes the road that we end up on feels like the wrong path, and yet we realize once we get to our destination that we were being prepared all along, and it was exactly the road we needed to take. Here's Jordan Phillips. Hey Jordan, excited to have you on the podcast today. And really I'm excited to introduce you to the audience here because you've got a really cool story. And I also think very highly of you the experiences that we've had together. And so excited to introduce you to all the dads here listening to the Dadical Podcast. Welcome. Jordan Phillips: Yeah, thanks for the invitation, Seth. You know, I was I was thinking about it and we just celebrated an anniversary, our our twenty year anniversary. Seth Stoker: Did we? Jordan Phillips: Yeah, we we met in two thousand six. So it's been twenty years. Time time flies. Seth Stoker: Wow. And you didn't get me anything. Jordan Phillips: I I gave you this. This is your gift. Yeah. We'll s we'll see. Seth Stoker: Yeah, good enough. Good enough. Well well well thank you. Thank you for joining. And and that's funny. I didn't even realize that that it's been twenty years. That's that's a long time. Jordan Phillips: Been long time. We got a few more wrinkles and a few more grays and a few less hairs, but yeah, it's it's been quite a journey in in the last twenty years. Seth Stoker: Well, and life has changed quite a bit since we knew each other. I think at the time both of us were pretty newly married and and I had one young kid at the time and and and I you you were still working on starting your family and so lots has changed. And so I I'd love to have you maybe just introduce us a little bit into where you are now. Tell us about your family, tell us about kind of your background and we'll dive in from there. Jordan Phillips: Yeah, where am I right now is we live in the Houston, Texas area. We're just on the on the north side of Houston in the woodlands area. We've been in Texas for eleven and a half, going on twelve years. So it's starting to become or feel a lot more like home. We've had two of our four kids were born in Texas. So they're they're true blooded Texans, and the other two were we we moved here early enough in their years where All they all they know is is Texas. so we we love it here, but originally grew up in in southern Idaho, small town, Southern Idaho farm boy. And you know, a lot of my former formative experiences in youth were a around working on a farm and just a lot of fun life lessons and experiences that came from growing up in that in that area, in that environment. I've been married to my sweetheart Amy for shoot, twenty-two years. And Seth Stoker: Don't mess it up. Jordan Phillips: I know I you hopefully she doesn't listen to this. My I I think that's right. She'll have to fact check me. I feel like after twenty is like you you can just say twenty plus and and and it's it's considered good enough. But for anyone doing math on that, I mean I'm I'm I'm maybe not quite as old as that might sound. We we got married really young. she was eighteen, I was nineteen, and we had everything figured out. at the age of 18 and 19 and knew exactly how the world worked and we we had plans and we were the smartest people in the room at the time and didn't necessarily want to listen to the advice of parents and but it was okay like ever everything has has worked out just beautifully over the last twenty two years and we've had our fair share of struggles and challenges and a lot of things that we never expected to go through. individually and as as a couple and as a family, but all those experiences, all those challenges have been so rewarding and it's made us the people we are today. happy to talk a little bit more about some of that background and some of those those just stories from the past. Seth Stoker: Well we'll we'll talk through maybe just give us an idea of what are the what are the challenges that you're referring to and then and then we'll be able to dissect Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: a little bit. Jordan Phillips: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of our our relationship as husband and wife, we we have a great relationship. We we've always just found a way to get along great. And know, I consider Amy my best friend and I think she considers me her best friend still. We I I'm not the easiest to live with some days, as maybe maybe a lot of husbands can can resonate with that statement. but yeah, I mean, we we knew each other in high school and we we were basically high school sweethearts, and like I said, we got married young. And I decided right after we were married, or just before we got married, I made the decision to join the military. And this was in 2003, which anyone that remembers what was happening in the world in 2003, there was this little thing called the Iraq conflict. It just kind of spun up and You know, again in my very wise 19 old brain, I thought, hey, if I join the military, this is gonna be a great way to pay for school. And it was, it it did eventually pay for school. but what what happened that wasn't part of the plan or wasn't predicted was after I after I went to basic training, which was after we'd only been married for about four months. So I left for six months, four months into marriage for basic training, advanced training. And about halfway through that experience, I got a notification that my my unit that I was assigned to was gonna be mobilized to to be deployed overseas to Iraq. And I thought, that can't be right. Like I'm I'm just supposed to be doing this to go to school. Like I mean, I'm not supposed to go to war. That that wasn't part of the plan. And so I I felt like if I just kind of I I don't know, avoided the the the realities of just what was happening in the world, or maybe thought that no, there's gotta be a way out of this. No, like I I I I shouldn't be doing this. It's not part of my plan that it would just go away. And it didn't. You know, we we ultimately, after I got home from basic training and advanced training, had a had a few weeks together and then it wasn't too too long after that that I turned around and left again for a year and a half and did did more training, was overseas for a little over a year. And so the the first five years of our marriage, Amy and I did the math on this. It was Think we had spent one or maybe two anniversaries together out of our the first five years of our marriage. so Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jordan Phillips: again, we started young, but the first five years we were we were apart more than we were together. And obviously that was that was hard. but I had a lot of good friends in the military. And what I saw during that time was that you know, especially those that were married, I saw relationships that would either thrive or I saw relationships that would fall apart. You know, so that that distance either makes you stronger or it makes you weaker and it really kind of exposes just what's what's at the core of that relationship, you know, what what is your foundation built on? And again, it's not to Yeah. Seth Stoker: Let me let me pause you real quick, Jordan. Sorry. The so when I started this podcast, I I never expected it to become a marriage relationship podcast. And it and it's not, right? It's a it's about us as dads, but I think one thing maybe I discounted is how crucial that marriage relationship is to being a successful father to your children. And so you you mentioned a couple things that I'd love to to dig into a little bit better. No number one is in fact, let's start here. You're gone for five years, or I'm sorry, you're gone for three of the five years that you're married. I mean, you're you're you're a brand new couple, still figuring things out, and yet you throw this gigantic wrench into the mix. What impact does that have on your relationship? Jordan Phillips: It ultimately was it was good. It ultimately was just what Seth Stoker: Okay. Jordan Phillips: we needed. At the time, if you would have asked me in the in the middle of those five years, I would have said, This is terrible. why is this happening? Why be? I I had the the mindset and attitude that why is this happening to me instead of why is this happening for me? and then as you get further through some of these experiences and you start to see how it's shaping you, your your personality, your your attitude, your outlook on the world. start to see that change from within you and and we both experienced that. And getting married at the at the ripe young age of 19 and 18, we absolutely needed that experience. Okay. We thought we had everything figured out. We had a plan. We were going to do things our way. and I'm just grateful that that God had other plans for us because we really do believe that it was some intervention from the divinity that allowed us to So grow in the ways that we needed to grow and to really experience some things that were that were hard and were really difficult, but that strengthened us as individuals and strengthened our relationship. And I think that was a lot of the that that that that time apart. not only were we able to find ways to communicate, and again, this is the before the days of FaceTime or even Skype. I mean, it was it was still letters and and and emails and and and occasional phone calls. but that really I think gave us the the time and opportunity to just to maybe be be a little bit more thoughtful in how we communicate it to each other and and maybe collect some of our thoughts before we were just spouting off emotional responses. And and that has been so beneficial to where we are today, where I mean look, we we have our disagreements and I do things that drive her crazy. And I I she doesn't do much that drives me crazy, but Seth Stoker: Good save, good save. Jordan Phillips: But you know, that's right. but I go back to that that relationship health and strength that we built in those early years and just the way that it that it came to fruition. Again, not something I ever wanted to sign myself up for, but so grateful for that because it's changed now how I how I try to be a a better father, a better dad for my children. So you're right. This is Maybe a little bit of a long spin-up towards how does this relate to fatherhood. I'm a f a firm believer that mom and dad working together, having a good love and and respect and trust for one another, and being able to display that within the household so the kids can see it is so crucial to just healthy family dynamics. and and and that is just such a foundational part of who I am today and and our journey. that you know those those first few years really taught us a lot. And then again, kind of going into the more things happening that weren't part of the plan. so yeah, three out of the first go ahead. Yeah. Seth Stoker: Well, hey, sorry. Can I pause you real quick? Cause I I I do want to dig a little bit deeper here in the sense that, you know, I got married pretty young too. I although I w I wasn't as young as you, but I was 21 and Jill was twenty. And one thing that I've always really valued is the fact that we grew up a lot together. Now, what I'm hearing about your story is completely different because you grew up or you and Amy both grew up separately in a lot of ways and spent time growing up independently. And so how did that pose any challenges with you guys kind of developing even certain habits and routines and things like that? Like what challenges did that throw into your relationship as you came back and now you guys tried to build those things together? Jordan Phillips: Yeah, I mean that that's a great distinction, Seth. The yes, there there were some growing up experiences that that we had individually after we were married. But where I would say that we were always just just united was our maybe our emotional maturity. And and that was because of our the way that we learned to communicate with each other. So I was having different experiences, she was having different experiences. We were on two opposite sides of the world. However, we learned that even though we weren't physically together, we could still have a lot of those same those those same called emotional growth moments together as as we communicated and as we focused on really the things that were gonna make our our marriage and our relationship strong. So it it's it it was kind of both in a way. And again, like I like I said, I saw a lot of buddies that were married that you know, unfortunately they didn't find ways To continue to grow and develop together as a couple. And you they come home and then to your point, it was, well, we're two different people. And you know, even just beyond the there's different daily habits and different routines, it was more there's just wasn't an emotional connection or a bond because they hadn't hadn't figured out how to do that when there was distance between them. And look, it's it's not easy. It w it was it was it was very difficult not to say that we we knew what we were doing, we just knew that it was a priority for us to when we could connect and communicate that that we made that happen. You know, and and when you're overseas and you're in the middle of a sandbox, there's there's not much to do. If you're not on duty, like there's there's not a whole lot to do other than watching a movie and go to the gym and you can only do that so much. So I made it a priority to when I could, I would go to the there was like a phone center you could you could call home and just calling cards and again all these these antiquated relics of the past that we don't even we don't even think about today. But That was a priority for me is making sure that when I could, I was I was calling home and we were just able to to talk to each other and and when we could email or or write letters, we would do that as well. So I think that growth, while it did happen separately, we were also finding ways to grow together emotionally, which allowed those transition periods as we got back together as we as I came home and and and then when I would leave again, we we could always find ways to still sync up and find our rhythm and and just felt very blessed that we're able to do that i i in what was a very challenging environment. Seth Stoker: Well, you mentioned emotional maturity. I I think a lot of that is required when you're when you've got that kind of a challenge, you know, entered into your relationship. When you guys get back together, I'm sure there's there's plenty of There's plenty of difficult things that you guys will run into as you as you're getting back into her life and you guys are figuring out how to how to work together again. I I could see that posing a lot of challenges, but it also requires a lot of humility and emotional maturity to be able to work through any challenges that you guys run through. But it sounds like the way you guys learn to communicate and you recognize that you had to communicate very thoughtfully with each other because your opportunities to communicate were limited, it sounds like that was a contributing factor. Jordan Phillips: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I believe it was as well. what I was about to share is we we did another deployment a few years later. And it was it was hard. You know, again, and we didn't we didn't think there would be number two. but I I I just do that juxtaposition of from the first deployment to the second deployment, both in terms of the the the physical experience and the the nature of the work itself, right? For my my assignment with the military, both were were very hard. but that second deployment was a a different experience for both of us in the way that one, we were experienced. We we kind of knew somewhat what to expect, whereas the first time was like, look, I don't know if I'm ever gonna see you again, you know, and and that was kind of a a very real weight that was hanging over us as like I I mean, I I hope I make it home. And not to say that you feel like you're invincible after you've done it once and that you can just bulletproof and and no matter what you're gonna make a home. But just knowing, you know, how we could stay close and connected, how we could still grow our relationship together despite the distance was was very comforting. And it gave us a lot of confidence as we we went into it that shaped our attitudes where our attitudes on the second second rotation were just night and day difference. And and that entire experience, again albeit was hard, it was it was I think even more constructive for both of us. In a way we we both kind of felt like w we needed it because we were so young when that first deployment happened and we were just so unprepared and and unready for it. And and and while yes, we did grow from it, we just didn't have great attitudes all the way through it. You know, we were trying and trying to put on the brave face, but there were hard days and there were days where again, we were just feeling really picked on. and then the second time around, it was okay, we know this is gonna be hard, but but we have the tools, we have the methods, we we have that confidence and and we put a lot of you know faith and trust in God and and and knew that we still needed to prioritize our relationship. And that second deployment was I I think even even more so called a a period of just just high growth and and and maturation. And we were at that point in our mid twenties, a little bit older, but still, I mean, that sounds just like babies who don't want to think back on it now. but it it wa it was a good experience for us to kind of say, Okay, we can do hard things and we know that just with with the right attitude, the right mindset, the right belief, we we we can grow and we we can we can thrive no matter what. Seth Stoker: Yeah, I guess you could make the argument that it's a huge blessing in some ways to go through challenges as a couple that early because you kind of learn to weather the storm and you and you kind of build a resilience in your relationship. But I think other couples sometimes if if things are really easy early on, they never build up that resilience. And when things get t get hard, you can see how sometimes people just bail. And and so it it sounds like that was a component of you guys being able to kind of lay a foundation together as a couple. Jordan Phillips: Yeah, I believe so. And you mentioned the word resilience and th that is something that I'd like to talk about and I know we will talk about here is then some some additional challenges that came after or during some of those those military years. Seth Stoker: Let's dig in. Jordan Phillips: Yeah. we the first five years of of marriage, like I said, we were kind of all over. And it wasn't it wasn't until you know a few years in that we started having the conversation about kids and starting a family. we weren't we weren't rushing to to do that again because we were we were so young when we got married. Like, okay, like we even back then we recognized like now we we don't want to rush into starting a family, but it it was important for us. And after I got home from my first deployment, I think it was about a year afterwards, we started getting serious about the conversation of starting a family and and then I you know, I don't remember when it was that we officially started trying to have kids and things weren't weren't happening. there were health challenges and some some things that were kind of surfacing like, man, that that's odd, you know, like when Seems like it's it's a lot easier for other other couples to start a family. Like, what's what's going on here? And you know, that kind of led to years of of discovery and and consultations and surgeries as we worked through infertility. it was we basically did everything we we could or that was available to us at the time to to start a family. Biologically. We before my second deployment, just before I left, we we tried in vitro and it was unsuccessful. And again, I just remember thinking, okay, like we're gonna do in vitro, I'm gonna leave on my deployment. Amy will be pregnant, so she'll have the baby. you know, about nine months into this, I'm gonna I'm gonna set up my leave so I can come home on leave when the baby's born. And like we just we had it all figured out, right? That didn't happen. So there was a period of just feeling really just kind of sorry for ourselves and and and picked on and get a little bit of a, you know, why God? You know, we're we're good people. We we feel like we can give a a good home environment to to a child, like we're not perfect, but we're also not completely unhinged, destructive people. You know, we feel like this would be good. Why is it this blessing coming? You know, and it didn't. And and another few years passed by and I I got home and and I I remember there was kind of a moment in time where we we we we just got to the point where we recognized that what we were desiring w was good. I mean the the desire to start a family and and raise children was was a good desire. But we were maybe just too dug in on how that should happen. and the the idea of adoption had had been floated, I think by a friend a couple of years earlier. And I remember the time when I heard it's like, no, no, no, like a deck, I can't do that. Like that's that's just I like I don't I didn't have a good reason why. Just like no no I'm like we're we're we're not gonna be able to adopt. Like we're gonna have a kid. Like we're this this is part of the plan. We're gonna get pregnant and have a kid. Seth Stoker: So, real quick, Jordan, let just to set the timeline. So, how long did you guys try before you started kind of considering this adoption conversation? Jordan Phillips: it was probably eight and a half, nine years we've been married before we opened up to adoption. And the crazy thing is those those, I guess eight, nine years of marriage, so maybe it was called call it four or five years of trying to get pregnant unsuccessfully. And and then it was amazing from the time that we finally opened up and and started to have some humility and and And some conversations around adoption. It was all that resistance that we met from infertility, all the doors that we felt just kept getting slammed in our face. And we were trying to break them down and push through it and just keep keep being resilient. And one of the things we're taught in the military is to adapt and overcome. And that was my default program. It's like, okay, we just gotta adapt and overcome. Like we just gotta try harder. Like we're we're we're gonna pivot. We're we're gonna figure this out. And and it's Once we started on this path of adoption, doors flew open. There was no resistance. And it was just like we couldn't move fast enough. Think things were just coming together at a rate and a speed that we had not experienced as we were in in those prior years trying to start our family. Seth Stoker: So let me let me slow you down real quick then. you started having discussions about adoption and at first you were resistant to it. Maybe talk me through the reasons behind your resistance to adoption at first, and then what finally helped you kind of get over that hump to open that door? Jordan Phillips: Yeah. I'd have a good reason. other than I was just narrow minded and and maybe stubborn. But I I I think that's where I had to challenge myself at the time is why are you resistant to this, Jordan? Like what what's holding you back? And and there there was nothing there that I if as I did a self-audit, like I don't know, like just because, you know, because we've been pursuing this and this is this is how it's supposed to be. So we're we're gonna make it happen. And then I think you get to a point where maybe some of that stubbornness wears off. You're like, okay, well, it this we've done just about everything we can do. And I think it was after we we did that unsuccessful round of in vitro and we, you know, we had made a lot of sacrifices financially to be able to do that. And it was when you get to the end of that, you're you have nothing to show for it. It it was I think we had to get to a point of maybe just getting through having having having some defeat. and having some what what felt like failures and some losses to a point where you you kind of open yourself up to to being coached, to being taught. And and that's that's what it was for us. And so we I don't even remember the moment in time when it was, hey, let's let's consider adoption. just that I knew after I got home from my second deployment, it was like, okay, let's let's start pursuing this. And and we did. And We I I believe it was the it was like spring summer of twenty twenty twelve when we when we officially started working on our our paperwork, kind of to create this profile. We moved made this book, kind of had to you're selling yourself a little bit to a a prospective mom who's going to give up their child for adoption. So we started working on this and working with an agency and to make a maybe a really long story a little shorter here. we adopted our our first daughter Ella that fall in October 2020 twelve. Her birth mother selected us as as as her her adoptive parents two weeks before she was born. Yes, we we met her early September, got together with her again in mid-September, and that's when she officially told us, Yeah, I want I want you to be the the parents of of my of my baby. And and then two weeks later Ella was born. And we we got a call at five in the morning or four in the morning that she was in labor and and the baby was on the way. We scrambled, ran out the house and drove six hours to the hospital to to go meet our sweet baby girl. And it it was it was just incredible. So it was a one of the longest journeys we we had been on and one of the most frustrating experiences we had been on. And and then it it also turned into One of the quickest and fastest experiences and journeys we'd been on and one of the most rewarding experiences we had we had encountered it up to that point in our life. And it was just it was it was so sweet and again just taught us a lot of you know trusting God. because we do believe again here that that God had a had a big influence and role in that. And there was a reason why we didn't have kids biologically, those those years that we were trying and and felt like we were doing everything right and that the it was supposed to happen. if if if we had had it our way, then Ella wouldn't be in our family. And and we knew that Ella needed to be in our family. Seth Stoker: So Jordan, let's back up just a little bit because that i I d of course that's a frustrating experience, feeling like you have to sell yourself to to parents and and that's gotta be really hard. I mean, I just Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: I just went through a lot of interview processes and that stunk. I can't imagine, you know, auditioning to be a parent. But what I wanna understand is I would love to understand kind of how that process went of when she selected you and maybe Jordan Phillips: Mm-hmm. Seth Stoker: even the conversation that you guys had with her or the conversations that you and Amy had together. What did that feel like when you finally got like the yes, this is this is starting to feel real? Jordan Phillips: Yeah. like I said, every everything moved really fast. I think we met her birth mother. I think that's the only the only birth mother that we we actually met or talk to. It was kind of a we were one for one when it came to adoption. So there was a little bit of that just Seth Stoker: Jordan's always been a good salesman. Jordan Phillips: I know, right? Well, it's some something sometimes I can get lucky, but it wasn't me, it was it was it was Amy. When we first met her her birth mother, it it was we it was her and her family. She was she was a teenager at the time when she was pregnant. And so we just immediately connected. And it there was this this feeling of kind of like we've always known each other and it was just so comfortable and so familiar. And I I remember when we walked away from that, Amy and I kind of looked each other like that was like really good, but also like Humpley just very familiar and comfortable, almost like we we somehow knew these people, but that was the first time we'd ever met him. And not that we walked away, you know, doing the fist pump, like, yeah, you know, we got this, you know, we we stuck the landing. That wasn't it at all. But it was just kind of a feeling of of of peace and and and some assurance that okay, like even if this goes nowhere, what we were now experiencing with with pursuing adoption, again, just felt so much more in line with with what we needed to be Pursuing at that point in our lives. And then it was we we had some communications or over the you know next few days and weeks. And then when we decided to meet again with with her and her family, we we kind of knew that she'd already made up her mind that she was gonna pick us. It was just more a matter of her saying the words and you know, and she did, and and it it was it was so just again, humbling and and exciting and also nervous to to hear it and then have this realization that okay, we're we're gonna be parents. and we're not gonna have nine months necessarily to prepare for it. Again, we've been we'd been preparing for nine years if you want to look at it at that point up to up to that time in our lives. But we because we knew that she was about a month away from having the baby and the baby came, you know, two weeks early. So it was actually faster than than we anticipated. But it it was again just very comforting all the way through it. And I I know we felt it. I know her her birth mother felt it, the family felt it, and it it it's allowed us to have a great relationship with them, you know, to this day. It's an open adoption. We we regularly communicate with with Elle's birth mother. In fact, Amy was chatting with her on the phone the other day and they were catching up. I mean, for for two hours, you know, and just talking about life and all the things that she's been able to do and you know, where she's at and and really being able to share our life and our experiences more about our family and it it just feels just like such a a beautiful connection and an extension of our of our family. So I know it's not that way for everybody. So I I sometimes even hesitate to to share that much detail because I know others have gone through that and they don't have that experience and it can be very frustrating and very challenging, kind of like what we went through with infertility. So I don't say that to to brag or rub it in, but just more to emphasize that I think with anything in life we have to be open to options and alternatives and and if if you have a a belief in a higher power or God or you know whatever it is then to to put some of your your faith and trust in that in that higher power and that's that's what we learn through these experiences is you know to put a lot of that trust in God and and and and control the controllables along the way, you with with effort and attitude and adaptability and that's been that's been our our default mode of operation as as much as we can and it's it's served us well. Seth Stoker: So maybe last question on this portion is I'd love to understand when Ella's born and Jordan Phillips: Uh-huh. Seth Stoker: you and Amy go to pick up Ella and take her home for the first time. What's going Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: through your head? What are those conversations like? Jordan Phillips: you know, I don't know that we had time to think about it. Just it it was just kind of just happening and we were just we were in the moment. but I remember being in the hospital. It was, it was the hospital was great. they they knew that we were the adoptive parents, and so we were there with again the the entire birth family. they gave us our own room, separate from the other room, and so we could be in there with with Ella. And it was just, you know, like we gone in the hospital and and had this baby and we were we were able to spend time with the birth family. And then you know when wit when it came time to all right, we've we've got to now take Ella home and put her in her car seat, and it was kind of this is real, it it was it was hard for for the the birth family and and again they they had a lot of peace and comfort in in in all of it, but you know, when you see this beautiful little baby getting into someone else's car and like, okay, goodbye. It I know it was hard and there were there were a lot of tears. There were mostly tears of joy, but also just maybe some some just pain that that went with it because you know they they knew that they were giving up just a lot of the experience and a lot of access to this little little sweet girl's life and and again they're still a part of it but just they're not a part of the day to day. And we had that blessing of being a part of the day today and experiencing that with Ella now. but we got in the car and we we we started driving north and I remember just kind of looking at Amy like, what are we doing? Like we're not ready for this, you know. And again, we're now we're almost 30 at the time, thinking we're not ready for kids. and I still kind of believe that, you know, now that I'm in my 40s, I'm like, I still don't feel like I'm ready for kids most days. but you know, that that officially kicked off the parenthood journey and then there are a few more kids that showed up later on and so I'm I'm happy to talk about that experience if if you'd like or or pivot to something else. Seth Stoker: Yeah, let's let's let's talk about that. Jordan Phillips: All right, well I probably don't need spend as much time on on on this part of it that I did like I did the the first part of it. But again, we're just I I feel like everything that should be scripted or should be part of the playbook or should be part of the plan. You know, anything that kind of represents the the the typical this is normal, this is how things should be done, not not by any really design or intention. It just feels like we've always had a little bit different way of discovering things or way of experiencing things or having things come come into our lives. And so again, we'd started with infertility for for 10 years and we had just kind of given up that we were ever going to have kids biologically. We had such a great experience with adoption that we we started talking about it, you know, after a few months of w with Ella and and and learning how to be parents and said, you know, this is good and let's give it a few years and then maybe two, three years down the road we'll we'll Try adoption again and we'll try for one more. It's just kind of a very high-level, yeah, that this would be good to try to get one more. So Ella has a sibling. So that that's is it basically as far as it went. I remember it was Ella's first birthday, and we were doing a big party, and all the family was gathering. And and Amy, I mean, I love her so much, but she was just acting so very unlike Amy, I guess I'll Seth Stoker: Hm. Jordan Phillips: say it. Very emotional, very just kind of angry and and really we're at each other's throats. And I'm like, what's going on with you? Like this is not you. And she tried just like, I don't know. She's like, I don't know what's up. She's like, I just I'm I'm I'm so just mad and and emotional, I'm not sure what's going on. Like, look, one of two things. Either you're terminally ill and we need to get you the doctor to figure out what's going on, or you're pregnant. Like th those are the only two logical explanations here. And they're like, we know you don't get pregnant, but either way, we got to get you to the doctor and figure out what's going on because something's up. It's like, I know, I know. I like we gotta go see what's happening. Cause physically, emotionally, like I just I something's wrong. Okay, let's let's go in. And so we went to the doctor and and you know, they go to the test and they say, you're pregnant. And we're like, okay. And I remember we heard that and we're like, Well, we'd been pregnant before, we'd had miscarriages, we'd had kind of false alarms. We're like, All right, well, it's just kind of another false positive and you know, unfortunately we're gonna to go through another experience where nothing really comes from this. and that wasn't the experience. she kept being pregnant and the baby kept growing and she was kept getting bigger. And then nine months later, our second daughter, Hallie, was born and we we kind of pinched ourselves and everything was great. And so now we had these these two sweet little girls and and it w they were, I think they're they're 18, 17, 18 months apart. So they're pretty close again in age. And not that we planned it, but it's it's great now that in terms of school, they're only a year apart in school. So the logistics and the activities coordination is a little bit easier and they're and they're best friends, and and it's it's such such a special experience just to see them, how how they bond now and and how they lean on each other. so that was our second daughter, and then I remember it was about a year or two later. This was probably the most intentional. conversation we had around kids you know post adoption and and post tally was we thought you know it'd be great if we could get one more and it'd be great if it was a boy. and so we we did have that conversation and I think that was the only thing that in terms of calling your shot we got that one right because about two years later we got pregnant with with a little boy, Mac is his name. he was born happy and healthy and and he's sandwiched in between a bunch of girls. And then there was one one more surprise two years later of Ruby that that came at the very end. And so it it it was just almost dizzying there for a time. We went basically 10 years with no kids, and then within a period of the next five years, we had four kids under the age of five. We're like, what just happened? Like, how did this all come Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jordan Phillips: come together? I mean, so quickly. It was It was such a long, arduous journey. And then it all just came at at one felt like just a a blitz, a rush. And Amy and I even talk about that day is like, you know, we we're sometimes we almost feel like we missed a part of our kids' childhood because we were just is all we could do to kind of keep up with all these little kids. You know, they were just felt like they all came at once. and now as I've gotten older and and they they they're in in school and activities and And you know, really doing a lot of exciting things and we see them developing and growing. It's not to say we feel like we have a better handle on it, but maybe in terms of those hectic chaotic years of just feels like you're you're never gonna get out of diapers and trying to live your life around nap times and does a stroller fit in the back. Feels good to at least have some of that behind us. And and now we're we're just enjoying raising these kids. So yeah, that that was the I guess the first 15 years of of our marriage was a t a ten year drought and then or a ten year famine and then you know five years of abundance and now we're just doing everything everything we can like I said to take care of these these sweet souls and teach them the best we can and get them ready for their own challenges, their own experiences. And we we tell our kids like, Hey your life's pretty good. Like you you've got a mom and dad that love you. You've got a a home you live in, you've got good friends, you've got you know ability to participate in sports and their activities and And that's all great, you know, but there's gonna be a time in your life when things get hard. and and you're gonna feel like, I I didn't want this to happen, I didn't plan for this to happen. You know, the same things I felt. But I mean, ultimately what we're trying to teach our kids as parents now is how how to be resilient. You know, again, I love that word that you used earlier, Seth, of just how how to be emotionally resilient, physically resilient, spiritually resilient, because it's it's a challenging world we live in and Things can change in just a moment's notice, for better or for worse. Seth Stoker: Well Jordan, I would really like to dig into that with you because you you see it today. That there's a noticeable lack of resilience amongst young people and and and really in adults too. And I think, you know, some of that is is is we're we're we're comfortable almost to a fault, like you said, like hey, your life is pretty good. But sometimes I think if you know stressing about what we're gonna have for dinner today is the biggest problem or You know, what what we want to cook or don't cook or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be, like these little things, if those are our biggest problems we run into that day, then what a blessing, you know. But at the same time, I'm really curious. I think I agree with you. I think it is so important for parents to teach resilience in their kids because that is what is gonna make your kids able to Be successful in life, period. You're going to run into challenges. How do you respond? That's the biggest question. How do you respond to the tr challenges that you run into? And so, how on earth do you as a dad teach resilience to your kids? Jordan Phillips: That's great question, Seth. And it it's it's probably one of the biggest questions that I ponder as a dad. Am I doing this effectively? And I I don't know. I mean I I wish I could tell you. I have got this scorecard and I've got these KPIs and like I'm monitoring each kid and like they're either above or or below this this threshold, and like we're we're on track to to say we we've we've successfully teached resilience. Fortunately, it's not that that easy to to determine if your kid is is ready. And so I kind of think back to my my own life experiences. And again when I was younger growing up and and then just knowing what I what I went through in my or really kind of my the decade of my 20s where I felt like that was just a, you know, the hits kept coming. It was like one thing after another and and frustration and challenge. And and not to say that I was always the best prepared for it, but the the resiliency, whether it was taught or caught along the way, it it it really started to I think manifest more more clearly in my life. But there had to be something there. It's not just that I I it it I was ready for it because I certainly, you know, mentally or consciously wasn't. and so I kind of think back to experiences I had as a kid growing up and you know things that I remember moaning about or complaining about that my dad or my mom would have me to and things we would experience as a family and kind of thinking this is dumb. Like, come on, mom or dad. Like what why are we doing this? Like we don't need to do this. And and and not to say that you want to create difficulty in your kids' life. I I'm I'm not trying to make my kids' life difficult difficult, but I also recognize that some of those g difficulties that I experienced as a kid were were were were critical. th that was essential for me being able to have at least some of that, even if it was very small muscle memory. of of what to do when things get tough as I got older and as as I was essentially on my own. And and and that's what we we try to impress upon our kids is that really we have you with us for for 18 years. And we're always mom and dad and we're always gonna be there for you in in in ways that we can and and should be. But in terms of our day to day presence interactions, we're together for 18 years. and some days it might feel like you wish you had nothing to do with this so you get run far away from us. Other days, it it hopefully feels, you know, a lot less like that. And hopefully there's a lot more days like where you do want to be around us. But you know, my goal as a father is is to help them understand that they they have superpowers, that they have abilities to to to really I don't want to stand too cliche here, but to do whatever they want to do in life. and that means that they they can overcome. really any challenge in life. and so we we prioritize our faith and teaching that in our home and and having a close relationship with God. But that to me, while it's the most important piece, it's not all the pieces. We're expected to to to to be agents unto ourselves and to use our agency to make good decisions and to learn consequences for our actions. And while while it's hard as a parent What what I'm trying to do now, what I'm focusing on is when my when my child can make a decision and own the consequence, good or bad, assuming that it's not completely catastrophic, ultimately like I don't want my kids getting seriously injured or hurt. and that could be physically or emotionally, but assuming that they can can fail and recover from that, I'm trying to create more space for them to have those experiences where I'm present, I'm available. But I can be a little bit more that coach on the sideline than on the field with them, you know, trying to to to be the lead blocker and create a hole up the middle. And that that's been more of an intentional pivot for me. And I think even Amy, Amy, as well as our kids get older. When they're little, you feel like you again you just need to to to to absorb everything and keep them safe when we wrap them in these bubbles. But as now as they get older and and and they're really starting to express their independence more, I don't wanna intercept that or interfere with it. I want to honor it while still being dad and still setting expectations about these are our family rules and this is this is what we expect you to do while you're with us. And we hope that you choose to embrace these rules later on in life and these principles will carry with you. But I mean ultimately I I've I've learned by a lot of my what in the moment felt like a failure. But then as I go through that experience I can look back on it and say, well actually that I don't really consider that a failure anymore. That that experience may be who I am today. So I labeled it as a as a failure in the moment, but now I look back on it as that was incredibly rewarding. And that that that quote unquote failure has allowed me to now be very successful in other areas because I went through that. So I I don't know how to best do that other than to try to give my kids space to to make decisions, again to experience the the consequences of that. And then be there for them to to debrief, to to share thoughts or feelings when they're ready to. they're not always ready when it's fresh. They sometimes they need a little bit of time to catch their breath and and Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Jordan Phillips: that's been another learning is they just y like again as a parent, you can see it l like immediately, huh. I told you you shouldn't have done that, right? Like tell me what you learned. Going to them in the moment is is not the best way to to have that conversation. So it's recording it mentally and then circling back i in those quiet times with your kids where you can then debrief on the experience and have a good conversation around, you know, what you learned and how do you think that's gonna affect your decision making next time? Seth Stoker: I like that. I I I'm gonna add to it just because I think this is something that I could have done better and can do better as a parent because I think back to and I'm not perfect. I I've been through challenges and things like that, and I I feel like I handle them relatively well. that being said, I look back to my childhood and and try to look back at why. Why why was why am I able to to bounce back from hard things or go through hard things. maybe maybe better than th than other people I associate with or whatever. But but the I I look back at what my parents did and my dad chose to go back to graduate school. He had a decent job, but he chose to go back to graduate school and move all the way across the country. We lived in Kearns, Utah which maybe we weren't doing that good if we were in Kearns, but just kidding. We lived in Kearns, Utah and we moved all the way to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and for the next four or five year I think five years we lived in Alabama and then he got his first job in North Carolina. So we moved to North Carolina and we lived there for two years. And then he got another job in Georgia. And so we moved to Georgia for three years. And you know, the funny thing is, is as a kid, like you want to stay in your comfort zone. I don't want to move, but I actually got really used to, you know, leaving my comfort zone, moving into a new situation, figuring out how to make friends again and everything like that, figuring out how to get settled into this new environment. And I got to the point to where I got really comfortable adapting to new environments, which was such a huge blessing for me. And it's it's funny because I'm a dad and I've been now in the town that we live in in Utah for twelve years. And we've thought like the the idea of moving has come up a couple of times. And it's just like, no way, that would be so hard, you know? And and as I think about it, I'm like, man, am I doing my kids a disservice by allowing them to stay so much in their comfort zone? Because I think about I've got a I've got a boss that or I I had a boss at a previous company that I would love to get on the podcast. He's awesome. But he his name's Jed Smith. He Takes his kids on leak like these super difficult hikes every single year. Like we're going to hike King's Peak or we're going to hike Mount Nebo or whatever the case may be. And his kids have just learned that that's what we do. And I remember Jill and me, we wanted to do more hikes with our kids and things like that as they were younger, but they were such like. Bums about it every time we would want to go hike. It's like, what even is the point of hiking, you know? And and what what I wish I would have done a better job at is, hey, we're going to do it. We're not going to not do it just because you're a bum about it. We're going to go do it because it's hard. And I think just experiencing like I think you build resilience simply by going through hard things. So if we as a parent, I think this is an area where if we're not deliberate about this. We can really drop the ball because our default is you talked about being a lead blocker and open up the hole for them. Like our default is, hey, we want you to be happy. We want you to be comfortable. But what we really need to do is teach them to go through challenges. And in order to do that, we have to provide them with challenges to go through. And so I'm really grateful to my parents for taking me out of my comfort zone, even though I probably hated it at the time. I can't imagine, I can't imagine my life without. being dumped in all these new situations. And so I think as parents, I think we need to be really careful and thoughtful about what obstacles and challenges are we actually even placing in front of our kids to help them learn to overcome them. And that's something that can be very easily missed. Jordan Phillips: Yeah, that that's great perspective, Seth. It's it's it's so important again that they have those experiences and and that and that requires again, a lot of times as as mom and dad, you go into those environments where they can have those experiences. I think that's that's what I'm realizing now is I'm the one that wants to be comfortable. I'm the one that just wants Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jordan Phillips: to stay home like, Hey, I already did this. Like look, I I don't want to go do the tough stuff now. Like that that was a different season of life. But I'm not doing my kids a an any service by just showing them a life of comfort. that that's not gonna help them. So that's where we've had to challenge ourselves to say, all right, like it would be easier just to go do the comfortable think. However, we know that all of our growth and really who we are today is a representation of the experiences we had. And a lot of those were very difficult and challenging in the moment. but we've grown so much because of that. So I think I think the hike is a great example. Again, there's these little things that you can introduce into your family that it's gonna stretch them. It's gonna r require a little bit of a push and there there might be some cl complaining along the way. but we've had so many experiences like that as a family too. Then it it's fun when you see your kids, they get kind of through that first maybe five minutes of of you know mental just self-inflicted roadblocks, and then they start to Be in the moment and and and appreciate the experience for what it is. And then you just start to see their demeanor immediately start to shift to something more more open and again more more coachable and and and then you start to see see them come alive. and that's that i is important. And I think it's it's really hard in the world we live in, right? When there's so many distractions, there's so many things that can pull their their time and their energy. And and we've gotta really think about how do we keep our kids mindful of this this limited resource, which is time and energy. You know, I've again my my oldest Ella love her to death, but she's the kid that just she always wants to be doing something and she she wants to say yes to everything. And that is such a great quality because I I think there's too many people in this world world that aren't willing to accept a challenge and to try new things. That's not Ella. The other side of that. Is you only have so much time today, right? You only have so much energy to allocate to any one particular task. And as you get older, right, the the the need to become Seth Stoker: Right. Jordan Phillips: even more specialized or just become more more skilled in your craft, whatever your craft's gonna be, it just requires a little bit more of your dedicated time and your focus. so it's like, how do you really understand what are your superpowers? What is your spiritual gift? Where can you apply everything that you want to to give of yourself, you know, your your heart, your your your energy, and and and then how are you gonna build that and allow that to to to just allow you to be become a a a contributing leader, a a contributing adult, a contributing mom or or or father at some point later in your life. Seth Stoker: Jordan, I I love what you're highlighting there. You've mentioned superpowers a couple times. Your job is to help your kids identify their superpowers. And I think what's really cool about that, and kind of goes along with what we're saying, is sometimes well, I guess if your kids stay in their comfort zone the entire time, then they'll never discover that superpower. Like they have to be challenged in order to Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: in order to uncover some of those strengths. And so I think it's just so I think as parents, we just have to remember that. Our job is to help them grow. More than anything else, our job is to help them grow because the more we help them grow, the more we prepare them for the life that they're gonna lead. And it's like you said, plenty of challenges are gonna hit them. They're gonna go through. Hopefully, hopefully their hard isn't the same hard that we had to go through or whatever, but it probably will be. And Jordan Phillips: Mm-hmm. Seth Stoker: our job more than anything else is to prepare them with that, prepare, prepare them for that. And the superpower, helping them understand what their true strengths are. And how they can maximize those to overcome some of these challenges, I think is crucial. Crucial. Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well said. Seth Stoker: So Jordan, I've got a couple more questions. I I would love to back up just a little bit because you and your wife, you're married for ten years before you had Ella. What what was the timeline there? Jordan Phillips: yeah, I think it was I think was nine and a half. I think we were going into our tenth Seth Stoker: Nine and a half. Jordan Phillips: year of marriage before we had Ella. Yeah. Seth Stoker: So, so nine and a half years as a young married couple, like let's be honest, that's a pretty comfortable life. You can live Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: you know, with with very few obligations. You guys could probably travel the world if you wanted to. Why was it so important for you guys to make this decision and pursue parenthood so fervently, like you did? Jordan Phillips: great question. You know, it's it's funny when you look back on things, and just knowing what we know now, like, man, if we if we would have known that it was all gonna work out, like we're we're gonna we're gonna adopt a beautiful little girl. like starting family will come a little bit later, but it's it's all going be fine. We would have chilled out a lot more Seth Stoker: Ha ha Jordan Phillips: in those first 10 years. And not to say we didn't enjoy our time together as a couple. Like we should have traveled more, and we should have done this and we should have done that. And like that was so much easier before we were trying to coordinate babysitters and and and again just being present for kids' activities. you know a big part of that first decade of marriage. there was, as we talked about earlier, some of that that personal growth and and and growth as a couple. And then there was just again the a lot of just t time away from one another. but we get all these experiences just just made us stronger. the separation for the military service very hard, but but made us stronger, made us more appreciative of of one another. just increased our our I think our capacity to love for each other. And then with the infertility, you know, the the years of of struggle and frustration and there there was never there was never a time where I I I felt that either one of us blamed the other party. It was it was never this is your fault or this is my fault. It it was always very much just we're in this together and we're gonna get through this together. And we don't know what the next steps are. We we don't know how it's all gonna work out, but we know that as we prioritize our relationship and and love one another and and I mean love in the sense of a verb, not a noun. showing that we love each other, serving each other, demonstrating it with more than just words, but with actions. that that was always present in our relationship and our in our marriage. And it allowed us again to continue to grow as a as a couple. And and then, you know, when the the children started coming on the scene, everything that we had done for those those first 10 years of really the personal improvement, the the relationship improvement, just the the unity and and I think the cohesion that we had as as a as a husband and wife has made us better as a as a mom and dad. Look, I'm not gonna say that we see things eye to eye all the time, especially on parenting too. I mean I I get labeled as a drill sergeant dad and she's she's kind, Seth Stoker: Uh-huh. Jordan Phillips: compassionate mom. and so we we balance each other out. she's more than happy to tell me when I'm going over the top and I'm More than happy to tell her where I think she's not being strict enough. You know, and Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Jordan Phillips: and I and I think that's great. I mean, I I l I love just the opposites. I I I love the that that principle of there's there's good and evil, there's light and dark, not to say that that I'm evil and she's good. I mean she is good and I probably am more evil, but yeah. I walked into that one. But but anyways, I mean we can Seth Stoker: Yeah, what are you saying there, Jordan? Jordan Phillips: we can be united in purpose and still have different methods of operating. and and and parenting and even how we we show our love to each other. Those can be different, but they can be very united in purpose. And that's something that while again I would love to to give you a a a measurement on it on that right now like this is how it's affecting our family. This is what it's gonna be from for them 10 years from now. I can't really do it. It's more just a matter of we know that our kids are going to see us as mom and dad working together, making decisions together. working through disagreements in a call it constructive fashion. You know, a lot of this world too is so polarized when someone has a different opinion or a different thought. And and we want to teach our kids that hey, it's okay. Like if you don't see things the way that someone else sees them, you don't have to get violent Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jordan Phillips: or aggressive, right? Just because you don't agree with someone else's position. There's a way that you can communicate and also try to be curious and understand. Why does the other person think the way they think? Or why does that form their opinion? And there's a way to Seth Stoker: Yeah, maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Right? No, that's what I'm saying is is help that helping them understand that, hey, my position actually may not be exactly right either. So I should seek to understand because I could be the one that's wrong. I've run into that plenty of times in my life. Jordan Phillips: Exactly. I I know. I I I do all the time as as well. I it's one of those things I continue to catch myself on is you get in those moments and again I think this is where emotions take over. Like, no, I know I'm right. I just like I know I am. I just I and then I I whenever I f find myself saying those, I I know, I know, I know, it it's always kind of a good trigger, like you know, maybe you don't. You know, maybe Seth Stoker: Yeah. Yep. Jordan Phillips: it's time to ask a question and to to create some space for listening instead of talking over someone else. Seth Stoker: So Jordan, I still though, I still feel like you guys went nine years. This is really, really hard. Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: And you guys are trying it for a long time. Why not just give up? And why not just live you and Amy, probably have a happy life? Like why continue to pursue fatherhood in the first place? Jordan Phillips: I I don't know that we ever thought about it that way. You know. we we always wanted a family. And so giving up was never really an option we gave ourselves. and I think that's probably again why we were so just determined w when it came to infertility. Like we're just gonna keep trying. Like there's gotta be another procedure, there's gotta be another surgery, there's gotta be something else, like some some other drug or something that that's gonna solve this because We were determined that we were gonna have a family. And and we just again felt that with within us. I remember even those early years when we were married, when it wasn't like we were actively pursuing a family, but we we knew that that's that was kind of fulfilling the measure of our creation. That that's just what we wanted. and and so Seth Stoker: Yeah. Well, Jordan, maybe I can ask it a better way though, is may maybe my question is is how has it changed you now that you've been been a father and and had children and and experienced you experienced almost 10 years of not having kids Jordan Phillips: Mm-hmm. Seth Stoker: with with Amy. And then now you've experienced what did you say 14, 12 years? Jordan Phillips: yeah, let's do the math on that. So Ella Seth Stoker: How old Ella? Jordan Phillips: she's thirteen. She'll she's almost fourteen. Yep. Yeah. Seth Stoker: She's 13. So now you've been a dad longer than you weren't a dad in your marriage relationship, at least. So, how has it changed you? Jordan Phillips: let me count the ways. it's taught me patience. it's taught me compassion. it's it's taught me the tough thing about being a parent is and this is where I struggle, is because too often than not I I feel like someone's holding a mirror up and I'm looking at myself through my kids. And the things that I that I like about myself I see in them, and the things that I that I don't like about myself and say I see in them as well. And I find that in those moments when I see my my daughter doing something rebellious or or or just saying something like, that's something I would have said to my parents, and that just that that really just irks me. And and it's it's hard to again allow them and to let them have that those moments of individuality without having a reaction to it. and again, I think the reaction is just it's coming from a place of that was me once upon a time. And when you see some of those things come through your kids that you don't love about yourself, I think I think that's that's the part where there's there's a feedback loop here as as parents and kids where most days I I also and I'm not just saying this, I I feel like I learned more from them than they they do from me from me. And and that again can be rewarding, but it can also be a a little bit unnerving. You're like, well, I hope they are learning something from me. You know, because I see all these things coming back to me in terms of their the the way that they express themselves, the way that they make decisions, the way that they you know choose certain influences or friends in their life. And there's things that I I like that they do, and there's things that I don't like that they do. And again, every I think without fail every time when I when it comes back to I see them doing something that I I don't like it's because I'm seeing a a piece of myself or my my past in some of those decisions that they that they've made. And I'm like, well, I did that and it didn't turn out good for me. So I don't want you to do this because I know it's gonna not gonna turn out for for you. But this is the hypocrite, as I as I talk through that, right? Is we we had what 20 minutes on the topic of resilience and giving your kids an opportunity and a space to learn from those experiences. even when it's happening and and when those those those things are real time, again it's really hard to just create some some separation or some distance so that you don't get pulled into the emotions of that. and that's where I I I go back to you know being very patient and being very mindful of as a father. While I certainly haven't cracked the code, it it's an it's an area where I feel like I've I've learned and I've I've grown a lot. an air an area where I hope I can t continue to learn and to grow. there's a lot of, you know, personal attributes and characteristics that I that I know that I have that that make me successful in my career and other ambitions in life. And those are great. and they serve a purpose as my role as a provider for our family. But I find that a lot of those things necessarily the tr the transferability is is sometimes not that great within within the home. you know, me being determined and focused and and having just kind of a dogged work ethic, when I bring that intensity into our our our family, sometimes it kind of feels like, all right, well what what's up with that? Like, dang dad, like Seth Stoker: Relax, Dad. Jordan Phillips: chill out. I'm like, well, no, like I just, you know, I'm just kind of rammed up. This is the intensity I have to bring to to what I do, right? In terms of some of my core missions right now in in my season of life. And and so I have to take a step back. And this is again where I think Amy's a a great coach for me is she'll let me know when, hey, a little bit over the top, you know, just just dial it back, maybe just just a little bit. You know, the the kids need that. They need to see that you can you can be that role model of of hard work and discipline and and setting big goals and and dreaming big. Like that's all great, right? But there's there's also other attributes and other just needs that that they have that You need to show that you can be compassionate. You need to show that you can can can be kind, that you can listen, that you can be there for them when when they maybe they they fell short of a personal goal or something was hard for them. Instead of being the dad's like, hey, just just dust yourself off, get back up on your feet. that can be the right answer, but there there can also be maybe a better answer as well that's that's a little bit more rooted in compassion and and giving them another way to to get back on their feet when they're ready to do that. Seth Stoker: You know, I think one thing that you're touching on a little bit is there's an irony in there that I we talked about the fact that our job is to help our kids grow. And Jordan Phillips: Mm-hmm. Seth Stoker: yet the funny part of that is is that becoming a father and taking on that responsibility unlocks an incredible amount of growth in yourself. And and there's no other way. Man, I watched this super depressing comedy bit this morning where this guy was talking about just. We've been conditioned to get married and have kids, and it's all useless and bad for you and and whatever. It was terrible. It was stupid. but I listened to that and I just thought, how sad. Because all of the best things about me have come from my decisions to get married to my wife and have someone there. You talked about Amy being a great yin-da-yure yang and being able to to cool you off when when you're a little too fired up or whatever. And you need that. Like you need a partner in life to help you recognize that, hey, I got bad news for you. You're not perfect. Here's some of the stuff that that's going to help you to be better. And vice versa, I can help her see opportunities for her to grow. And and there's a certain amount there's an incredible amount of humility required in that relationship in order to make it work. And the reason that so many of those relationships don't work Is because that le that humility is non-existent. It's it's lacking. And so then on top of that, you throw kids in the mix and you get humbled ten times over. But you also increase your your ability to love your your feeling of responsibility, it completely expands. Your feeling of responsibility of man, I now I got all these people I gotta take care of, I gotta provide for them, I gotta teach them. And through doing that, you become so much better of a version of yourself than you ever could become on your own. And so Jordan Phillips: That's right. Seth Stoker: I just I I hate some of those messages that you hear going around. Really some of the trends that we see with lowering birth rates, marriage rates, Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: increasing divorce rates, things things like that. Because listen, you are robbing yourself of incredible experiences and. joy by not taking on the responsibilities of of marriage, parenthood, and so on. And so what what a what a sad situation where you you fail to unlock that growth on purpose. Jordan Phillips: Yeah. I I think you hit the nail on the head there, Seth. And a a lot of this too is as we kind of circle back to some of the themes of of this conversation is you know doing hard things is is what allows that that growth that that's that's necessary. not only just for us personally or as families, but I think from a broader kind of societal lens, right? This is the the the world needs people that know how to endure hard things. And I've talked about some of the struggles and the challenges that we've we've had. I mean, when I was younger and even, you know, things before I was married. But I gotta tell you what, I mean, I yeah, I've done some tough stuff in my days, but I still feel like being a father is most challenging role or or task that I've I've ever been called to serve in. It it's it's hard. and that's what I I get concerned about as well is when you just kind of look at some of the societal trends, is that not enough people are willing to embrace that discomfort and step up. And and it's not about perfection. I think that's the other kind of misnomer that is really circulating, is there's always an answer for everything, and we get, you know, lightning, quick responses. and and I feel that there's a a little bit of a growing trend that people just believe that they have to know everything and they have to have all the resources at their fingertips. And I that that hasn't been the case for me. I mean, it's not to say that I've I've done anything in my life where I've gone in completely unprepared. I mean, I think there's different moments where you look back and say, I could probably could be a bit more ready for that one. but Seth Stoker: Nobody's ready. Jordan Phillips: nobody's ready. That's that's right. Seth Stoker: Yeah. We're just we're just we're all winging it trying to figure out figure it out, you know? Jordan Phillips: We we learn by doing. I I mean I learn by doing. And there's a certain amount of just maybe call it mental conditioning you you you should be at least prepared preparing for as you take on new tasks and new roles. But there's there's no more important work than the work of Parent, a mom and a dad working together, trying to create an environment of love and respect and trust, and really just teaching these principles that allow not only the family to thrive, the the children to thrive, but this just creates a better world. you know, this this is what concerns me is that not enough people are willing to take on that challenge of just knowing it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be challenging. You're gonna make lot of mistakes, trust me, if you think you've lived a pretty perfect life, just become a mom or a dad and you'll you'll feel pretty quickly like, all right, I've got I've I've got some strikes against me. but that's a great thing about being a a father and a a mother is you get an opportunity every day. And and and that's again, I I look at all the things that my kids teach me. They're they're so forgiving. I mean, I just I make so many mistakes and and no matter how much I screw it up and Not even trying to screw it up. My kids are so graceful with me. They just, Dad, it's all right. they they express their love to me either through words or through actions, and they let me keep trying. You know, and I I I find that just so inspiring and so energizing is when I see my kids, when I've maybe not had my best moment or lost my temper, or again got a little too a little bit too intense about something that just didn't matter. Kids are like, hey dad, like. We still love you. Like it's okay. Like we we get it. We'll we'll keep working with you. It's like, you know, thank you. Thank you. I know I need that. So I I really hope. Seth Stoker: Well that's the beauty of it, is the love that you get back. Like like Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Seth Stoker: the more you put into it, you get such a huge reward back from from the love of these these kids and and your family as a whole and being able to feel that love in your home. Like i there's nothing better. Jordan Phillips: Yeah. Yeah, there's nothing better. when I think back to when I was a a kid growing up, and you know, some of those moments where I didn't agree with my dad or something my mom said. was like, man, I I hope I I was as as merciful and as you know willing to extend Seth Stoker: huh. Jordan Phillips: some some grace that my kids show me. I'm like, I I don't know if I was enough. But I also remember those moments when My you know, my dad specifically when he came to me and said, Hey, I'm sorry. You know, like I I didn't handle that well and and I'm sorry. And it was a you know kind of a very short statement. And I I I've always looked up to my dad and I still do. And I remember those moments when, yeah, like he did some things. Again, nothing bad. My I a great dad, but just you know, those kind of heat of the moment things where tempers get short and things are said and but I I never lost respect for him losing his temper or for getting after me for being a knucklehead, you know, for doing something dumb. Like he was doing what he was supposed to do. You know, where I grew to to appreciate him and respect him and love him even more is when he came to me and and would show me that humility, would would model it and say, Hey, I'm sorry. Like I I didn't handle that well and I'm gonna learn from it and I hope he can forgive me. th those things really stand out. And so I've thought about that again when I am in those moments where I don't have maybe the best reaction to something my kid says, or I, you know, just again, you kind of get caught up in this work brain and you're you're kind of thinking a little bit more in in terms of corporate America and you can you can carry a certain tone or a certain demeanor and then you have to to turn off turn off work brain and turn on dad brain. And I think in those moments of transition where it's still kind of work brain and then I I still have this kind of level of intensity maybe lets me know about all the time. It's just I think from the military where I just I don't even realize that I'm doing it right. But I just maybe I'm a little bit too amped up. And she's like, hey, you know, just like turn turn it off and put on put on the different hat now and and be here for your kids. But my my kids have have been so good to to to be receptive to what I can share with them, to how I can teach them, but to also recognize when Hey, I'm I'm just a person too. And I I make mistakes just like you make mistakes. And there's times where I need to to take a beat and say I'm sorry. think we're the more that we can show our kids that we're just human, that we're just people, that we're we're trying Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jordan Phillips: to do the best we can, the the more accessible we become, the more real we become to them, the more they feel like they can confide in us, they can talk to us, whether it's something they're not proud of or it's just something that they they need mom or dad for them in that moment. Seth Stoker: Yeah, yeah, I agree. You've mentioned looking up to your dad quite a bit. What other lessons did you learn from him that have kind of impacted you you being a father? Jordan Phillips: Yeah. I I grew up in a family and even still to this day, I think we're a little bit better about it now. We we never said I love you. But I always felt loved. I I don't know that we we never we never felt like we had to because we just we showed it. And my dad's a great example of of s serving and his his love language is service. All those years where Amy and I were moving around and it felt like we were we were more transient than we were in in every in any one ever fixed location. My dad was always the one showing up with the truck and trailer and saying, Let's let's load you up and move you your new place. And there was never any complaining. you know, when I was overseas, Amy and I bought a house and she was trying to fix it up and remodel it and paint it. He was there every night helping Amy at the house. It's just he he just serves without any kind of expectation of something in return. it it's it I think it's just kind of that that quiet but but very intentional way of working and and and and showing up when when people need it that has been such a kind of a a critical example to me of you know, like even in you think about like kind of sports and athletics and like I played sports growing up, but I I was never a trash talker. I don't even know how to do trash talk. That'd be really bad. You know, if there's a trash talk competition, but my dad taught me, he's like, you just let your play do the talking. Like if you're good enough, then you don't have to say anything. And I think that's so true for for anything we do in life. Just just let your actions, let your contributions say everything about who you are. And then words are just supplemental to it. You know, words can maybe just support what you're doing. I think too often is what we see in this world is. lot of people say things and they don't actually do things. And so there's a lot of a lot of Seth Stoker: Yep. Jordan Phillips: moving of the lips, but not a lot of action to support it. So I've always appreciated my dad and just how he's just been had that that quiet way of serving and being there for his family and and working hard and enduring his own challenges and hardships and and showing us you can adapt, you can overcome and you know we we would do family vacations growing up and we were we were always like we we were lower end middle class at best. And you know, so our family vacations were road trips and the camp trailer and we didn't do the Disneylands or Disney Worlds. That just wasn't in the budget. but we, you know, we would go hiking and camping and my dad had this thing for taking the road less traveled. And it would drive us crazy 'cause we'd be going down this dirt road and and we were as kids, like, Dad, what are you doing? Like take the other road. It's faster. And like we like we're we're trying to get from point A to point B quicker. And He would have this thing with going down the road less traveled. And then miraculously we would have some just incredible encounter or experience because we were on the road less traveled. We were doing things and in places that no one else was. And by being willing to take the road less traveled, we were in a position to to have something that someone else didn't have. And I've I've really thought about that a lot as I've gotten older as well. Is and I and actually kind of see that coming out in terms of even just how I make decisions is. Sometimes I find myself wanting to take the road less traveled in a lot of things, and not just to be a a contrarian, but because I'm like, actually, sometimes the road less traveled is the better way to go. I mean, we can always we live in such a world of efficiency where it's always about, you know, the quickest way to get from point A to point B is a straight line. And and yes, there's there's a lot of I think efficiency and effectiveness in that, but I mean sometimes you do need to take that squiggly path and and see some different things along the way and and allow that road less traveled to open your mind and to open your your eyes to there's there's a different side of this world, there's different ways of thinking or thing experiencing things. So I well it drove me crazy as a kid. Now I'm like, you know, I'm kind of glad you took some of those roadless traveled. We we wouldn't have had some of those experiences had he not taken a left instead of the right. Seth Stoker: Jordan, thank you. I have one more question for you because I think you're in a unique position where I mean, there's thousands of people struggling with in infertility and considering adoption and things like that. And so I maybe just want to give you the space to give in what advice would you give to any young couples or or any couples that are are dealing with challenges of infertility, considering adoption. yeah, talk us through that. Jordan Phillips: Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, I'd say don't give up. just the most important thing you can do as you're going through that that trial and that hardship is is to love each other, to support each other. you're you're gonna always be there should always be a a a husband or a wife, a companion to each other. You know, again, we're we're gonna have our kids in our home for A very short season. You know, there's like there's a 20, 25 year span where we have these kids with us. And then as married couples, you you've got to figure out what happens after that, right? As grandma and grandpa, and it as new kind of seasons of life introduce themselves. And any any time, any effort you invest to strengthening your relationship. And it's different for everyone because I'm not saying that what Amy and I went through is what everyone needs to go through. You don't have to be on the other side of the world. You don't have to be enlisted in the military. You don't you don't have to do the things we did. But just be united in purpose. love each other, understand each other's needs. And if if you know the family is the decision that you two have made together, there are so many avenues, there's so many just resources, and there's so many ways, whether it's medical advancements or or resources when it comes to adoption. There are so many kids that need a a loving mom and dad. And I think ultimately that path and that decision for every family is a little bit different. but one of the things I again I I learned as we were going through this that I shared is just just be open, be be receptive to being steered and directed in in one direction or another another. And I I thought we were gonna after we adopted Ella, I thought our we were gonna adopt. Rest of our family. I just thought this is how our family is going to be formed is through adoption. It was beautiful. It was an incredible experience. And I'm so grateful that we had that. But I know if if it would have been we got pregnant through in vitro or something else, I I probably would have I would feel just as grateful for that experience. So there's not necessarily one answer for everybody, but just I would say be be open to To all the options, all the resources. And in the meantime, love each other. Be there for each other. because you're gonna need each other not only now, but for for years to come, especially when the kids show up. Because if it's if it's hard right now while you're dealing with infertility or wondering when are these kids ever gonna come on scene, trust me, it pales in comparison to when they're actually in the house and you're trying to figure out, man, how do I, how do I do this, this. mothering thing and this fathering thing, that will really stretch it to your limits. But as we talked about here, there's there's no more rewarding work in this world. Seth Stoker: Awesome. I've got one more question for you because I like to ask everybody on this podcast this question, but what is the legacy that you hope to leave behind with your kids? Jordan Phillips: Wow, I should have prepared for that one. I I think of all the father figures I've had in my life, not only my dad. I had a grandfather I really looked up to, some some other people that have been very influential. And and I I I I really kind of want to be the best of of of all those things that I see in my own dad, my a grandfather and a few other people. It's like if I could just be greatest hits of all these all these people that I've come in at in in contact with. Then I would consider that a success. But that might be too ambitious. To simplify it, I would say I would want my kids to know that I believed in them, that I inspired them to to think big, to to understand the effort and the work that's required to to do great things, but also to have the confidence to know that. They have more power and potential and capacity and capability than probably what they they fully can comprehend at this stage in their life or really even as they get older. I think too often than not we we underestimate our ability to do good. And I wanna be thought of as I inspired my kids to to be able to make the this world what they want it to be. you know, leave their own lasting legacy. by chasing their own dreams and doing it through their their their goodness, their their work, their their contributions, knowing that things necessarily aren't handed to us, but as we set a goal and as we work towards that goal, it's it's that journey that makes us the person that that we want to become. So yeah, I that was probably a little bit more long-winded than what you're hoping for, but I I I'm just hoping that they can can learn from that inspiration, that motivation and and have that belief that they can do great things in this world. Seth Stoker: That's perfect. Jordan, thank you so much. Really appreciate you letting us learn from you today. Jordan Phillips: Thanks Seth. Enjoyed the conversation. Seth Stoker: Big thanks to Jordan for sharing his story today. Here's what I want to leave you with. Most of us spend our lives fighting the detours. We had a plan. This wasn't it. And so we push back, we force it, and we try to break down every closed door. Jordan and Amy spent nearly a decade doing exactly that. And it wasn't until they stopped fighting the detour and started following it that everything changed. Whatever road you're on right now, if it feels like the wrong one, if it feels like too many doors are closing, Maybe it's worth asking whether you're being redirected rather than denied. The road less traveled is harder. But as Jordan's dad showed him, and as Jordan is now showing his kids, it tends to lead somewhere worth going. New episodes drop every Wednesday on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Share this one with someone who you think needs to hear it, and if you know a dad with a story worth telling, please reach out to me at daddyclepodcast.com and I'd love to chat with them. As always, don't sleepwalk through fatherhood. Be daddy.