Latest / Nutrition Connection by Dr. Kristen Hicks-Roof / 62: Dr. Wesley McWhorter DrPH, MS, RDN, LD, CSCS - FOOD IS MEDICINE / RESEARCH

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62: Dr. Wesley McWhorter DrPH, MS, RDN, LD, CSCS - FOOD IS MEDICINE / RESEARCH · Nutrition Connection by Dr. Kristen Hicks-Roof

• Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Welcome back to the Nutrition Connection Podcast, the show where science meets storytelling. I'm your host, Dr. Kristen Hicks Roof, dietitian, researcher, and lifelong advocate of the role of nutrition, health, and wellness. Each episode, I sit down with dietitians and nutrition experts, leaders from all over the food and healthcare sectors, who touch nearly every aspect of our lives. So whether you're a student, a seasoned professional, or someone simply curious about food, nutrition, and health, this podcast is just for you. The views, thoughts, and comments on this podcast do not reflect those of my employer nor the employers of my guest. So let's go ahead and get connected. I'm super excited to bring on a longtime friend of mine. We have Dr. Wesley McCorder. He is the Vice President of Lifestyle Medicine at Suvita Healthcare. Welcome to the show, Wes. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yes. Hey, thanks for having me on. So glad to be on. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: So we have crossed paths with both of our former identities. So Wes and I were both academics at the university, different. I was in Florida, he was in Texas, and we both looked at kind of this nutrition education for physicians and integration of nutrition as part of medical support system. So lifestyle medicine is really your bread and butter. And we're gonna get deeper into all the credentials behind your name as you're a chef, you're a dietitian. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Texas. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: I would say you're a jack of all traits. ⁓ but let's start from the beginning, Wes. Like what inspired you and made you want to become a nutrition professional? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: You know, people tend to say, I've always done this or always done that. That's not that's not where I'll start. I'll I'll start with when I was ⁓ in grade school. So early on, right? But ⁓ it was the it was the family health conditions. So my grandfather specifically having a ⁓ a heart attack and love my grandfather, but he did not like that healthy diet that the doctor recommended. ⁓ not at all. I remember him being, you know, was at my grandmother grandmother's house and she had made this breakfast with, you know, the ⁓ the dry toast or whatever it was, you know, no fat, whatever, back in the, you know, the early two thousands we were recommending. And ⁓ he was he was wondering about it, was like, I'm not eating this, I'm not doing it. ⁓ and I I joke about it now, but ⁓ you know, it's he he he didn't he didn't like that, right? Like a lot like a lot of people, right? ⁓ fast forward a few years, he's not following the recommendations, which, you know, heart disease, et cetera, it's it's related to what we eat or don't eat. And ⁓ He had a stroke and he passed away a few years after that. So if you you view it through that lens, that's really what inspired me. ⁓ I was already, you know, like playing sports and interested in what is nutrition, but the idea of can we make healthy food taste good? That's what inspired me on this journey to become a dietitian. Now it took a really like roundabout pathway to to become a dietitian, ⁓ but that's how I, you know, that's that was the initial push into the field, I would say. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: It's so funny because as I bring on people from all different niche and sectors, everyone kind of has this like very jagged route to get there. Like they may know that that's where they want to go, but it's like all over the map to get there. So especially with you, with your chef background, like what came first? Did you wanna do the dietitian first or did you realize kind of the food is medicine chef first? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yeah. You know, I I wish I could be like, you know, twenty years ago I knew this is how the field would shape up. ⁓ I did not, right? ⁓ I'll I'll I'll answer the question in a second, but I remember one of my first jobs as a chef as a as a young, you know, graduate of culinary school. ⁓ told the chef I had majored in nutrition and he told me I was an idiot. That's not going anywhere, right? He's like, That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like that's not that's not going anywhere. Who would who would want that, right? So that was the the time period, you know, early two thousands when I was going through culinary schools, like nutrition. you know, what what does this have to do with anything? Maybe a few athletes and like, you know, some some Uber wealth, but beyond that, there's there's no a future here. But for me, what what I what I envisioned, what I what at least I I thought I saw was, well, if food is related to our health and the healthy food is not, you know, inspiring to consume, we should do something about that. So I didn't know what a dietitian was at the time. I learned about that in culinary school. So, you know, down in South Florida I went to culinary school. ⁓ Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: place called Florida Culinary Institute doesn't exist anymore. It's was Lincoln Culinary Institute and then something else after that. But got a great education, learned a lot, but also had a dietitian that taught us nutrition classes. And that's where I learned, ⁓ okay, this is this is what a dietitian is and sounds like I am going to have to do some additional education to do the things I want to do. ⁓ so it's kind of like a, you know, like you you have an idea, but the pathway is not, you know, fully there for you until you you go down that road. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: But I think sometimes when you get that pushback, I remember during my PhD, I was wanting to change advisors because the research was just really not in my lane. I wanted to do nutrition education for physicians. Like I kind of knew as I was already a clinician. And someone told me this is the worst decision you're making in your life. An academic told me that. And that's because when you're in a PhD program, changing advisors halfway through is not always the smartest decision, but sometimes you have to make but you know, I think sometimes that Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: When you follow that passion of you're like, I know where this is going or I know where I want to drive this path, you just kinda have to do it, even though you may get pushback from maybe your family or your collaborators or or external people. So it sounds like both of us kind of had that. We're like, nah, we're doing it anyways. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's it's kinda like in every step, right? So like it I I I I would tell students, you know, former professor, like, if you have an idea and you're willing to put through it, like, that's great, right? But don't ex you're gonna have to have thick skin because people are going to disagree and sometimes they mean well. Like they're trying to look out for you because that's that's in their lane, that's what they see. They don't always see the bigger picture. And I think for a lot of people that may, you know, be on that kind of that outside, you know, little little push the agendas a little further and they normally would I guess it can be a little little bit of a lonely road. So that that was me in culinary school. ⁓ you know, I I worked to graduated, worked for, I don't know, two or three years, ⁓ you know, restaurant, country club. ⁓ I got a job as a private chef. And that was really what allowed me to to go back to school. pay for school, become a dietitian. ⁓ and in that role it was a it was great, right? So you, you know, you learn your culinary training, you know, traditionally French trained. lot global cuisine within our school, a lot of ⁓ experience with, you know, other chefs that know their trade, right? And and really learning how to be a chef, not, hey, go to culinary school and then become a dietitian, but really working as a chef. And I got this job as a private chef, ⁓ you know, one client lived on their property for a while. That's actually how I ended up in in in Texas. ⁓ worked for them for almost nine years. during that time, again, this this ⁓ My my employer, you know, like she had a few different, you know, health conditions and ⁓ had a few different rules, right, for her. And they weren't there weren't a lot of rules, but it was like, I don't want to eat the same thing. You know, I want something different all the time. I want you to be creative, which as a young chef, you're like, That's amazing, right? I can I get to go purchase whatever foods that for me look amazing, right? And prepare them and you know, in a healthier way to help her get to her goals. So that was ⁓ a great role for many years for me to to really hone my craft, do a lot of, you know, gardening and ⁓ you know, kind of led me into the produce prescription ideas and the food is medicine even more. and then really also understanding you have these tools, right? I'm a chef, you know, I forgot the portion of me becoming a personal trainer during during that side. So I was doing the personal trainer of the chef piece, right? ⁓ so I have these tools. ⁓ But also that behavior change is still not happening with that client. So, you know, I'm I get through my my undergrad and inspired to, you know, keep going through the education because it's it's it's like, what, what's missing here, right? Like why can we not get that shift with someone ⁓ when we have all the tools in our toolbox, right? We got the culinary, got the fitness, have these pieces, but still I'm not able to understand why we act how I can actually get that that change for them on that personal level. So that that inspired me again to continue my education, not just stay ⁓ where it was. So originally I'm like, okay, I'll go be, you know, a chef and then it's like each step of the way it it keeps being like, okay, well this makes sense and this makes sense and this makes sense. ⁓ didn't didn't start off thinking that though. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, you know, I think ⁓ I as everyone who's listening, I told you he's a jack of all trades, right? You got all these credentials and you also have many different skills and expertise that in a way they were all built each other to where what you do today. So let's talk a little bit about your career path. So you ended up becoming a dietitian, you were already a chef, you were already a personal trainer. So like what kind of roles have you had since becoming that dietitian ultimately to get you to as a vice president ⁓ really in this food as medicine arena? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: I'm gonna I'm gonna step back and and talk about undergrad. Cause I think this is this is probably an important thing for some of the listeners, especially any student. Like going through undergrad was the hardest thing to me, more than my master's, more than my doctorate. Because it was this shift back into, you know, an undergraduate, you're really you're following direction, right? Like it's a very like prescribed, you know, process. And I remember telling one of my professors, you know, and I went to Kansas State. I was it was great. Love Kansas State, super happy. lot of virtual programs, the only way I could do it as a working adult. But I remember telling one of my professors, hey, I'm a I'm a training chef. And they're like, well, that's great. We don't use that. We're dieticians. We don't cook. And I'm like, how does that make sense? Right? It's like, how do we not cook, right? It's food, shouldn't we? ⁓ so that was another one of those we we talked about earlier that's like, this doesn't make sense. But getting through undergrad and I, you know, I might be like some of the other people out there, I didn't realize we had To do internships. That was new to me. I guess I didn't listen in that, that, you know, that ⁓ orientation class. I wasn't paying attention. But ⁓ when I found out it was an unpaid internship for I don't know, whatever it was, 12 months or something, I was like, this is ridiculous. How do I get through this too? I just did undergrad. you know, I still working as a chef, still had that full-time job. So going through undergrad and now going into my master's. And ⁓ I applied to all the programs I could get it, you know, that I could. that were in my area in the Houston, Texas area. And I'll be honest here, nobody, nobody, nobody accepted me. Like no one. ⁓ I got into I got into UTMB because they had they had ⁓ open spots. They were like, hey man, you ⁓ you didn't fill out your application. We have an open spot. Do you want to come here? I say that jokingly, but that that was like they took a chance on me. I took a chance on them and it's one of the best decisions of my life. It actually that that was a combined master's program. I got a lot of exposure to to researchers there. ⁓ professors I have there were like super kind, mentoring. You know, no one in my family has graduate degrees, so it's not like it I could go ask a bunch of other people, but you know, going through that, getting the experience of one of my rotations, we did a cookbook for athletes. It was like dorm room cooking for your your collegiate athletes. So I'm like getting to use the skills that I have, getting to use the sports side, working with You know, with a an RD that I found really, you know, fascinating, doing something in my lane, working around my work schedule to make it to make it happen, right? So that ⁓ also allowed me to to get that exposure into, well, what do we what do we think about what do we think about ⁓ you know, getting that doctorate, right? That was that hadn't crossed my mind, right? Like, yeah, I c I think I could do it, but just having someone encourage me and say, hey, Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: What? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: You could do that. Like it sounds like you're really interested in public health. Sounds like you're interested this. You should go let me introduce you to so and so and they can talk to you about, you know, their career or they can talk to you about ⁓ what they've done or what, you know, what would be a good opportunity for you. So it's like these natural pathways of being open to listening and and doing stuff. But ⁓ yeah, it was ⁓ it was definitely a long trajectory of getting it even getting that R D, right? So graduating with my masters and getting that, ⁓ That credential really felt like a lot of success. Just it was a lot of school. Six six years after culinary school felt felt like a lot. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, and times have changed. You know, I didn't get accepted in my first round of applying to internships either. I mean, I had probably a little too much fun and not as much studying in my undergrad and you held multiple jobs. So I don't know how similar there, but anyways, it it is to show you that you may not get the first chance, but people will take the chance on you. And I also was the same way. Like I didn't know I was gonna do a PhD, but there became this fellowship when I was at Texan ⁓ Kingsville and it went to main campus to do some like gut physiology research, which I have a degree in nutrition and microbiology. So like it really aligned. ⁓ you know, but I wanna talk a little bit about what? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yeah. Little little microbiome stuff, right? Before your before microbiome before it was popular, I guess. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Honestly, we did. I mean, we were doing microbiome sequencing. I mean, this is when early 2010s. I mean, this is when nutrition and microbiome was like first truly starting. And still to this day, I'm weary of it because I know the lab and I'm like, there's so much microbiome, so much of the microbiome we can't even characterize because they're anaerobic. I could get on for a day's, but I'm weary of that topic. But can you talk about how you made that decision to do a DRPH? So Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: For those of you listening, there's, you know, your traditional PhDs, there's a DRPH, which was a doctorate of public health, you have the EDD, which is an educational doctorate, and then you have something in the DCN, which is a doctor of clinical nutrition. So a lot of options on there. Why did you choose the public health route? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: If for me ⁓ you know, like the the bench science wasn't as interesting to me. ⁓ at U T and B there's a lot of protein researchers. They're doing, you know, like they they take a sample out of a thigh, you eat different types of protein, you do some, you know, some leg lifts and you know, like it's it's one after the other. That type of studying, not my cup of tea, but I you know, we had some other exposure to more of that public health, which you know where I'm from and the types of foods that people are eating. And like, you know, I did a lot with earlier in my younger days, a lot of volunteering and with homelessness and, you know, some feeding and cooking and things along that line. So really, you know, the the political side of it and like why are we here? So the I think the the public health piece was much more interesting to me of how can we change a system versus looking at a small segment. so when I started looking into it, that's where somebody's like, hey what, you know You should look into a doctorate of public health. And for me, I'm like, okay, what is the difference? And when I went through, to be honest, there really wasn't much different. Even my university, like one class was different. We all did stuff together and then our our dissertations were slightly like altered. Now things have shifted a lot more, I would say, where it's very much more practical. ⁓ probably closer to like a education doctorate where you're you're in on specific projects and things. so more setting you up as a leader in a field to To be able to go tackle a bigger problem. so it was the I think the exposure of, you know, talking to other people, this would be a good route for me. And then kind of in that same time period in my master's, I I I read a a research paper. ⁓ it was about chefs moving to school. So it was during the Michelle Obama era, it was ⁓ talking about like gardening and cooking and how that can help with nutrition. I was like, This is amazing. This is like, this is exactly like, yeah, this is what I do. This is this is me, right? This I I see myself here. So actually found the author, got their contact information, emailed them, they called me, chatted with them. It was very I don't even remember their name. I need to go back and look it up. ⁓ but very encouraging conversation. That led me down the route of connecting with another mentor of mine, ⁓ Dr. David Eisenberg, which again, very encouraging physician. ⁓ ⁓ out of Harvard as well, that kind of in the food is medicine, culinary medicine, teaching kitchen world, ⁓ it talks a lot about, you know, making nutrition education a lot more practical. ⁓ and that is like, yes, this is this is welcome to, you know, this is this is exactly what I'm looking for. ⁓ so happen happen chance within the Houston area, the UT School Public Health, they had just built a teaching kitchen and a teaching garden. And they were like You know, I went and interviewed with them and they were like, This would be a great fit. Please come on. And it, you know, it it worked where it was ⁓ you know, when I'm choosing the programs I got into, which for my doctorate I got into a lot more programs this time around. I I knew how to apply and interview and it was a lot more successful. But this the the UT made the most sense for me just with what was available and the opportunity to come in and help support this program and kind of take it from ground level to to really ⁓ you know. Develop some research and also for my my dissertation too. So that is, I think, the what really led me there. And I took a break in between masters and doctorate. I wasn't like straight through. I did take a take some time to really think through, interview a lot, talk. and I encourage other people to do that too. Like it's, you know, you have time in between, even if you're an older student. I was an older student. ⁓ you really, if you're gonna be, I mean, you know this, but if you're gonna be researching a topic for four, five, six years. You probably should really care about it 'cause you're going to be super miserable if not. ⁓ you really, you know, need to be for sure that you're certain you want to do it. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, mental health is a various series a very serious thing when it comes to doctoral programs because you're so focused on one topic for an extended period of time that you yeah, your life is overrun. But if you're passionate about it, right? Like I was very passionate about educating physicians on nutrition. Like I loved as a dietitian, how do we educate them and then increase this referral sourcing? Like that was. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: As a clinician, I really appreciate that. So it was a good driver for me. And it helped me very similar to you to land an academic position where you got to continue that level of work. So let's talk a little bit about how you were in academia, really focused on this lifestyle medicine. But then I want you to more quickly transition into what you do now today at Suvita Health. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of wrapping up like UT, what was I doing? I was teaching classes and in that teaching kitchen we started what we call culinary medicine classes, which out of Tulane, ⁓ Health Meets Food Now, ⁓ culinary medicine. We were running their curriculum, helping you Tim Harlan and Jacqueline Albin back in the day of like what what are you what you know, what are we building here? Leo Ceris, et cetera, all of us on calls, talking through curricula, updating, moving through, teaching our students, right? So we started teaching medical students. We were teaching dental students. We had our dietetic students ⁓ collaboratively teaching the classes, supporting each other. I did that for about three years through my doctorate. And then when I graduated, I got brought on as faculty ⁓ at McGovern Medical Assistant Professor there, internal medicine, and then also health promotion behavioral sciences at the School of Public Health. So dual appointment, ⁓ leading the nutrition education, physician education. at McGovern and then also doing research. So ⁓ a lot of the research that I did and with our our county hospital, you know, we we have, and I say this because this is the kind of how I transitioned into where I am, ⁓ County Hospital, ⁓ ER, inundated. Like it's overflowing, big problem. You know, this is pre is pre-COVID. So this is not a COVID problem, this is pre-COVID. ⁓ Can't see everybody. Start looking at, well, who are these patients that are that are in the ER? Well it's preventable diabetes, right? Like it's these are these are diabetes cases where they don't need to be in the ER. This is a prevention visit. ⁓ they just had an an incident because they weren't taking medication, there's no there's no nothing happening, right? So we look back, well, are these patients food insecure? You know, starting to ask those questions, start surveying these patients, coming to find out yes. Okay, well, we need to get food in in these folks' hands, so partnership partnership with the food bank, but that not stopping there, right? Can we build a farm on on one of the the properties, one of the the hospital properties? Yes, we can. So let's do that. And then if we have the food, what we had seen in some of our earlier studies is preparing the food and teaching that, it goes hand in hand where you'll actually have better outcomes. So if you just hand out or distribute food, sometimes it actually could be a negative outcome because a lot of times foods that are being given, people are not familiar with them. So it's a really ⁓ it would describe it as like the the boiled Brussels sprout. It's just not palatable, it's not interesting. So my dissertation was surrounding that. Like how do we, you know, surveying focus groups with patients, ⁓ dietitians providers at our county hospital and then creating curricula designed to teach the dietitians how to teach culinary medicine to their patients. they've expanded that program. It's ⁓ in a lot of the clinics in the county. ⁓ so that was that was a big part of like my beginning of research. From there ⁓ was doing these other culinary medicine classes and programs and won a you know a a ⁓ a grant through Blue Cross Blue Shield. And I was doing it in ⁓ some clinics across Texas, ⁓ fully virtual. This is now past COVID point at this time or during COVID point. We were already planning, we were ahead of the time, I'll be honest. Ahead of COVID. We weren't thinking anything about COVID. We were just like, Texas is big. If you've ever been in Texas. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Right. To drive to all the sites. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: There is there is zero chance you can get to every person that needs it. It's just not gonna happen. And even like coming to the medical center where we were located, it's you gotta pay for parking. It's kind of drive through Houston traffic, which if you haven't been to Houston, it's kind of like LA, it's not enjoyable to sit in traffic. So people aren't gonna come. And then you miss opportunities, right? So can we do this virtually? We had a really great setup, some great funders and and ⁓ and folks donating money to give us great camera equipment. I mean like Beautiful stuff, right? Where we can do live virtual classes. We can see in someone's home. We can talk with them. Hey, l is less is this work? Does that not work? great success with that program. You know, fully virtual, never saw them in person, cooking at home with people's families, across Texas, not just in one city. ⁓ so we see some great reductions in A1C. So through that, I was approached on on this startup that I'm in with Lifestyle Medicine, where Hey, let's go do the same thing, but at scale. ⁓ and I think for me, you know, I like I mentioned earlier, I'm one of those people that why not? What's the worst that can happen? Let's go try this, right? So, ⁓ you know, tenure track position, fully funded, overfunded, really cush job, no reason to leave. But, you know, this is a great opportunity to, you know, learn something new. I'm not I hadn't been in business. This is now a for-profit business. Can we go and can we try this? ⁓ in the, you know, fast forward almost four years, we got fourteen clinics. We're running the same types of interventions I was doing at UT, but at scale across 14 clinics, ⁓ you know, three times a year and cohort. So ⁓ I think it was the right decision. ⁓ my dean did not think so. He also told me I was an idiot. You know, when I told him he was like, You're an idiot. You know, it is what it is. I probably would have felt the same way if I was him. ⁓ but again, I think the the reality is like sometimes people don't see the direction you're going or what what could be there for you. And it could, you know, things can still fail, things can still go wrong. But it's really been a an enjoyable ⁓ I think, pathway for me to to learn the business side of healthcare. and it's not all good, right? It's it's nice to learn that and also it it helps us as researchers, as dietitians, to understand. How do we sell what we're doing? How do we actually talk about ⁓ nutrition? And how do we expand our role instead of decrease our role? So you know, it it's been almost four years, but very happy to to to be in the role I'm in. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Know, leaving academia when you're in the I don't even I can't even think of the word, but like you're indoctrinated to kind of stay in academia. That's very traditional academia. So, you know, it was it was a challenge for me as well to leave academia, but you s you sometimes see the opportunity as, hey, I may be able to open another door here and you take a risk. You know, it is a risk leaving academia when you have tenure or you have, you know, ⁓ funding to be able to go. But I think what you're doing in the food is medicine space is really Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: aligned and especially right now with everything that's going on, I mean foodist medicine is continuing to take off. ⁓ so it's a really good spot. So talk what is like give me a day to day. What does that look like? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: I I'm ⁓ I'm like Mr. Corporate now, I would say day to day is is is managing teams and structuring and and visioning like what direction do we go here? Like how do we how do we run I mean similar similar to the professor role, right? You're you're you pull out a you know, you you apply for a grant, you've got to plan out what are the next three years, right? How do you apply your funding? So very similar, but just on on the business side where, okay, what does this cycle look like? How do we structure classes? What's the minimum FTE you can use on something like this? What is the what's the dosage look like for patients? So I think the kind of the the big change for me from academia to to business is like academia, it's like you want to do every single thing, right? And when you're applying for these grants, you have to and it's like you can't do that. It's just not realistic, right? Like I would love to have a 32-week class. Not gonna happen, right? It's not realistic. So when when the you know the rubber meets the road per se, it's it's really like How do we function in real life? And I think that's that's been like the day-to-day for me is understanding that, you know, while we need that, we need to know what is the best thing that we can operate under in that research setting when it comes to the practical application, implementation, which I know you did a lot of implementation science, or I think you have, and kind of the the IPE side and the interprofessional education, et cetera, for for me, like on the implementation side and tailoring programs and interventions. you know, learning to shift a little bit, learning that, okay, well, we have a different style of staffing model here. So what we've done over here, we can't make it work. We do have to model it and structure it different to to apply. So I think again, going back to like my education, that was very helpful in understanding how to, you know, how to tailor these types of programs and and and events and everything else. So day to day looks a lot like, you know, I think like a lot of people, a lot of emails, a lot of messages, ⁓ lot of lot of using AI to speed things up and ⁓ you know a lot of ⁓ a lot of planning, right? ⁓ and then planning for when things don't go right. ⁓ which naturally in anything that's involves humans, things always change and adjust. I think another learning thing for me is as dieticians, we're often can be a little siloed on ⁓ say the business side of healthcare where you don't understand all the pieces that go together. Being here has taught me a lot of what goes into how you can actually function, ⁓ how you what you have to do to actually get reimbursed, what you have to do to actually, you know, make sure that what we're doing, you know, compliant and everything else. So it's it's really the business side that I've I've spent a lot of time learning on. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: You know, I I liked what you said earlier, is you almost took your learnings from your academic di ⁓ academic job on just project management and you applied it. I think a lot of people when they wanna let's say leave the clinical field, they don't know how to curate or create a resume for a niche job opportunity. But we have the skills as nutrition professionals. We have the clinical skills, we have some business, we have communication skills, we have marketing. I mean In in academic training, you do have a little bit of everything. And so it's how do you showcase what you do in your current role to be able to be applicable towards a role like this? So I thought that was really clever. ⁓ and and I think that you're right, is it's so funny you talk about the implementation science because I see it in my role, you know, as as I've transitioned out of academia too. Like academia is really good to pilot test things to see like what's the feasibility, how does it work? And then I think in in industry. You take that and you say, okay, what's actually realistic of what I can do? Yeah, you're never gonna get a 30 plus week. I was in a ⁓ six month clinical trial with my daughter and like I miss half of the food frequency questionnaires and I know, like I'm a I'm a researcher. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Mm-hmm. You're like trying as hard as you can. Like I'm trying I'm trying to help you, I swear I am. Yeah, yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Totally. You know, but it's when you are in studies, and I encourage every single person who's listening, participate in a research study, understand what goes into it. Because I don't think people realize like, yeah, they want six year trials or five year trials. And it's like that's people's lives you're talking about, right? That it takes a lot of time. They have to commit. It they have to per they have to go to the education sessions. They have to eat the food that you're providing. Like Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: And I mean ⁓ Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: All of those sound good in theory, but like what if I get a food prescription box and it has cauliflower and I don't want cauliflower tonight, but that's what's on my menu, right? And so I think that's where, and I know you presented at Teaching Kitchen Collaborative last year of like, how do you use AI and being better to curate programs that have a little bit more modifiable and flexibility? Because I think that's what you're gonna need for a lot of these clinical implementation studies. Because people are not rigid. They don't want to follow a meal plan. They want to follow a general guide. And then ⁓ make your own. Would you say the same? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: It's it's getting it's yeah, it's getting better too. I you know, I think, you know, kind of speaking broadly here, ⁓ a lot a lot of RDs can be very fearful of, you know, tech and and things. And right rightly so. There can be there can be some, you know, some founded fear of will it will it take my job or you know, none of us can predict exactly which direction and things. But I think the the message from me and at least what I've I've I've been experiencing is like learn it, learn how to use these tools because it can It can be so beneficial to patients. And I think one of the the prettiest thing I was I I've seen as of late is the taking charting time away. So none of us in the healthcare field went in to be whether it be a physician, dietitian, nurse, went into the field to chart. Like no one. If you did, I don't I don't know what's wrong with you. Like it's not something that we like to do. Like everyone I love charting. Not something I've ever heard from any team member, right? so AI charting's amazing, right? Like you review it, it's getting very accurate, it's great, can catch things and do some coaching. it doesn't remove the human piece, right? It actually gives that back to us. So I can make on eye contact with my patient. I can I can connect more. And your point of like an RD writing a meal plan. I mean all of us have been asked, can you write me a meal plan? Can you write like who likes writing a meal plan? I don't want to write a meal plan. But we can use these tools to to create some some things, right? And it can be very useful for Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: No one. No one likes riding a wheelchair. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: You know, some of our patients that really need that, are they gonna follow it? Maybe not, but at least they have it, right? yeah, I think there's a lot of benefit there. ⁓ and it it it it's kind of getting outside of that that fear that I think a lot of RDs have, and not just RDs in in general in healthcare. ⁓ a lot of us practitioners have a little bit of a fear of of the future of what this means for us. But I think there's a ample opportunity for us to to utilize the resources and tools and and if we don't then other folks will and then they won't have the expertise that we have, you know, influencing ⁓ those models, et cetera. So I think it's important for us to to be involved. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, and dietitians and nutrition experts need to have a seat at the table because you're right. The programs and food as medicine will continue to go on if dietitians are not there. So we've already talked about how science, you know, you've brought into real life. So we're not gonna dive too deep on that. But, you know, Wes, you've had quite a successful career in a lot of different niches and areas. So what's been your favorite or something you're most proud of so far? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: I I love teaching at med school. I think it's probably again looking at my career, why I went into the field in the first place. It was very I remember my first lecture in med school, it felt very like full circle for me. Like I remember that doctor giving you know, my grandfather not following the doctor's advice. Who wants to eat dry tote? Like it's just you had a heart attack, your life is over. You get to know how to have no enjoyment anymore, right? Instead of like Okay, well, like we can make some adjustments and changes. So really being able to, you know, work with medical students, medical residents to talk about when you see a patient with diabetes, what does that mean? And what is the practical pieces you can use to talk about? when should you refer to a dietitian? You know what? Actually, who knows what a dietitian is? And that's something we would survey all of our, you know, like each each of our classes about 250 students in these medical school classes. A lot of students, right? Vast majority, no concept. You know, you're looking at MS1s, no concept what a dietitian is. No idea. I mean, I can't I can't I can't fault them. I didn't know what a dietitian was until I was, you know, I had one as a you know, as a as a professor. So I, you know, it wasn't out there. We are our our field, not a lot of people know about it, unfortunately, right? ⁓ y'all y'all deliver like ⁓ the the shakes and stuff, your dietary, but like any sense of expertise, and that's where like You a big light is clicked for me is that it's really about, you know, when you do interprofessional education, it's about understanding each other's roles. And I think from the the physician side, they start to say, you know what, this person actually they do know a lot, and nutrition's more complicated than I thought it was. So I should refer to them. This is great. I actually like these people, these are good. ⁓ and then on the dietitian side, it's ⁓ my God, they're not a scary physician. I can actually talk to them. They're normal people. They just expect me to actually, when I have a recommendation, to actually have facts behind it, right? Like, which is very fair, right? It's their license on the line. So it I think it, you know, our model was, you know, in a in a teaching kitchen, we would pair one dietetic student with like four or five physician students or dental students, right? Or nursing students. So they're getting that. that connection where they learn about each other's roles and, you know, come to find out when they graduate, these folks are again much more likely to refer. And you and I have talked about this a lot. You know, I'll I'll I'll I'll go on a soapbox here. ⁓ anyone that Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Like we have we have the exact same learnings. I mean, so you were in Texas, I was in Florida. The learnings are identical, right? And that's something that I used to teach dietitians and nutrition students to go introduce yourself and tell them what you do because they have no idea. And that's not just physicians, that's your nursing staff, that's your rehab staff, that's your physical therapist, that's your pharmacist. Because the term dietitian. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: You ready? Yep. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: They think it's just delivering the shakes or they think you're in the kitchen making a diet order or whatever it might be. So I I think we we could have a whole episode on that, but we don't talk too deep into that on this on this. So I I have some questions for you, Wes. What suggestions or tips would you have for someone who's interested in this like food is medicine roles and spaces right now? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: There's a a tremendous amount of opportunity, right? Like a tremendous amount. And I I think, you know, kind of if you if you just look at like the the practice paper we have, I think it's twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, twenty seventeen, talks about interprofessional education. Like the more we do it, the more likely those folks are to refer to us. And that's that's what the data says. It's like your opinion, my opinion, it's it's the data, right? So with that being said, get out there. ⁓ speak up. I'll share a story when I was an intern. I this you know. physician, well meaning physician, wrote an a a diet order that was not what the patient needed. And when I brought it up to my supervisor, they were like, ⁓ he's a doctor, you just just let it go. And I was like, Wha why? Why would I let it go how why well he's a doctor, you don't you don't question the doctor and I was like, That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like, I know I'm a student, but I'm gonna go like talk to about it 'cause like this is clearly it was a mistake and we need to correct it. Like this problem. And I did, and they were very nice about it, and we got it corrected. So, like to me, it was this fear of you know, like, ⁓ I can't do that. So step out of that, because there's no point in that. Like we're we're we're all professionals here and people serve different roles and you you need to, you know, address everything with respect. But that's the number one is like have the confidence to like you do know a lie. You went to school for a long time, you know, and ⁓ and you've been practicing, so get out there and and speak up. number two, like Don't be afraid that someone's gonna take your job. That's also one of the, you know, anytime we hear about, you know, physician education or something like that, you'll have well known dietitians, you know, social media. This is dumb. This work, we need to protect our own. And I'm like, again, opposite of what the science tells us, we're protecting crumbs when we really should be, you know, expanding the role, right? So just doing the math, I think like the what the academy says we have like 115,000 dietitians or something like that. What's it like 40 million Americans that have diabetes and maybe like a hundred and something that have prediabetes? So we're gonna see all of them. Like we need more dietitians. And again, we're not getting we're not even getting enough referrals for those that exist right now. So how do we get more? We start talking about this more to the the other folks. So I think that's one of the biggest pieces is stop being stop being our worst enemy, right? Where we don't need to block this, we really need to step in and lead it. So that comes from when we make these announcements, like. You know, if you have a med school nearby, volunteer to a lecture, get you there's there's probably some opportunity to go to go meet some folks, join in a class. If you're into the culinary medicine thing, it's a it's a great opportunity for talking, ⁓ doing nutrition ed. I gotta share this story too, Kristen, 'cause this is another one of those you're never gonna do this situation. So when we first had the idea of doing culinary medicine out of medical school, we we offered it to one of the ⁓ special interest groups. Med school, right? We're a school public health special interest groups of the students. So it's like the wellness, wellness group. We're offered for free. You know, we don't have, you know, we we can we can fund it for a little while, a few classes. They love it. ⁓ but we're like, hey, this this is coming to an end because we can't sustain this without some funding. So, you know, go talk to your dean. And we had already asked the dean, like, hey, we're gonna do this. And they're like, No, you you're never gonna be doing that at our school. Well, the students wanted it so much they went and knocked on the door and come to find out they had enough push and pull that the dean came and paid for it, right? So it was this thing of like, I think those generations very hungry for knowing things. A lot of, you know, practicing physicians and you know providers, sick and tired of seeing patients day in, day out, and seeing them with the same results. They want to be able to deal with the root calls. They don't want to just say, ⁓ well, here's this, here's that, see you in a few months, and you're gonna be worse. So if you if you kind of like step back and go, these folks are not my enemy. We're actually in this together. We're on a team. We serve different roles, but we can work together. Go a lot further in life. You go a lot further in your roles and it really it just makes life a lot easier. So that's ⁓ not super practical recommendations, but more I guess philosophical is just how you approach it is that we're on the same team and we can work together. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: feel like you and I are lockstep. I mean I get so frustrated on social media when people are are upset about physician education but they also you know Wes to their credit they haven't sat in our shoes as academics and learning this is like if you want to increase referrals you have to educate them to be able to understand nutrition is complex nutrition isn't eat more fruits and vegetables like that that's not nutrition right and so That will allow for more referrals. That will allow for better insurance coverage, right? There's like, there's a downstream ⁓ impact there. So it's funny. You're talking and I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep. So I think we're spot on. So my last question, Wes, as we close out, and I'm really curious your answer with your food is medicine experience and background. If you had a crystal ball, what do you think is coming next in nutrition? Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: ⁓ I I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't have seen the the as big of AI ⁓ bubble as we're in now, I I would say a few years ago. So ⁓ I think public interest is not waning. It's gonna keep going. So it's a really ripe time for all of us to to step in, whether it be, you know, things in the the nutrition education side, things on the AI side, but nutrition is in the media more than ever before. ⁓ it's definitely an area where we can benefit a lot as dietitians if we're willing to put ourselves out there. So Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: When you have you've given a lot of examples, right? I know you've been involved in teaching kitchen collaborative. You're an academy spokesperson, right? There's there's a lot of ways that you can get involved as a dietitian or nutrition expert, whether it's through research, through communications, through chino trainings at your facilities or with your patients population. So I feel like you gave a lot of really practical examples, no matter who's listening. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: There is a way for you to get involved in culinary medicine and food as medicine if that speaks your interests and you're interested in that. So, Wes, it's always great to have you on. I know our paths are going to continue across. I'll see you at Fenty and beyond. But if you like the show, make sure you like, subscribe, leave a review. But most importantly, check out the next episode because every episode, I bring out a different dietitian and nutrition expert to share their story and give you tips and advice on how to be successful. Wesley McWhorter, DrPH, MS, RD: You too. For sure.