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Alexander Colin - Het laatste slachtoffer · De Leeslampjes

0:02
Speaker 1: Hello, dear book lovers. I'm Arno Olieslagers. I think our
0:06
Speaker 1: Dutch-speaking authors are getting too little attention. Their exciting, touching
0:11
Speaker 1: and sometimes life-changing stories earn more. That's why I let
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Speaker 1: the light shine on another author in every episode. Because
0:20
Speaker 1: nobody likes to be in the dark, we all know
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Speaker 1: that by now. In this episode, Alexandre Collin. His writing
0:29
Speaker 1: career begins in 2021, when he takes third place at
0:32
Speaker 1: the Silver Strop, a competition for exciting short stories. After that,
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Speaker 1: four bloodthirsty thrillers follow at.
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Speaker 2: A fast pace.
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Speaker 1: The Last Victim is his most recent book, but I
0:44
Speaker 1: have a suspicion that it.
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Speaker 2: Will not stay that way for long.
0:48
Speaker 1: Because this book feels like the perfect opener for a
0:50
Speaker 1: series around his character Max West. I read it and
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Speaker 1: I found it incredibly exciting and fascinating. It's full of
0:58
Speaker 1: well-made characters, very accessible and beautifully written at the same time.
1:04
Speaker 1: A laugh like a drop in an iron bucket. Wonderfully beautiful,
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Speaker 1: but also terrifying. Because his book is full of horrible
1:12
Speaker 1: details that can only make you hope that I didn't
1:15
Speaker 1: let in a psychopath.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to De Leeslandjes. Thank you. I'm not a psychopath,
1:27
Speaker 2: so I'll put the record straight.
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Speaker 1: Then I'm relieved. Alexander, maybe we can start with some
1:36
Speaker 1: short stories about your most recent book, because we're going
1:40
Speaker 1: to use that as a red thread.
1:41
Speaker 2: That's good, sure.
1:43
Speaker 3: As you already said, Max West is the main character,
1:45
Speaker 3: and he's a trauma therapist. And she plays a crucial
1:48
Speaker 3: role in this book, As the title suggests, it's about
1:54
Speaker 3: the last victim, the last victim of.
1:56
Speaker 2: A serial killer.
1:57
Speaker 3: A killer who has been on the move for months,
2:00
Speaker 3: who makes the country unsafe. His last victim is saved
2:04
Speaker 3: and is left behind with a trauma. The killer is
2:08
Speaker 3: not caught, the police are not close, she couldn't help anyone,
2:13
Speaker 3: but she escaped death. Max West comes to the fore,
2:17
Speaker 3: because she's a trauma therapist.
2:20
Speaker 2: She takes the therapy of Amélie.
2:23
Speaker 3: The last victim, to say, is there no more information
2:29
Speaker 3: in your head than you think? You may have lost
2:31
Speaker 3: some parts, there may be a chance that you can
2:33
Speaker 3: still help the police. But the longer that therapy is
2:37
Speaker 3: going on, the more Max realizes that things don't work
2:41
Speaker 3: out as they originally thought. And there also appears to
2:44
Speaker 3: be a certain contact between her and Amélie, which Max
2:46
Speaker 3: then also leads to a trail that.
2:49
Speaker 2: Goes towards obsession.
2:50
Speaker 3: And from there, the story develops further and follows one
2:53
Speaker 3: twist after the other, to hopefully take the reader on
2:56
Speaker 3: a exciting journey.
2:58
Speaker 2: That sounds very interesting.
3:01
Speaker 3: You have a good pitch.
3:02
Speaker 2: Yes, that's it. You've thought about it. Yes, in the meantime,
3:05
Speaker 2: he's been going for a few months already, so yes, indeed.
3:09
Speaker 1: I also always ask people, which book they have learned
3:12
Speaker 1: from their youth or later, and that you actually gave
3:14
Speaker 1: the taste to start writing yourself.
3:17
Speaker 2: Well, as a child, that was the series of Harry Potter,
3:19
Speaker 2: because that's actually the books.
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Speaker 3: Of which I remember being one of the first ones
3:23
Speaker 3: I started reading.
3:25
Speaker 2: So those books made me a reader.
3:27
Speaker 3: But that's fantasy, of course, and that's not the genre
3:32
Speaker 3: I write in, and not the genre I read so
3:33
Speaker 3: much in. So the book that brought me to the
3:36
Speaker 3: thriller path is Misery by Stephen King. Stephen King is
3:40
Speaker 3: also known as a horror writer, who sometimes writes about
3:42
Speaker 3: those big turfs, well, sometimes, often, about those big turfs,
3:46
Speaker 3: but Misery is actually, for him, A fairly compact book,
3:49
Speaker 3: 300 and a bit pages, I think. And that's really
3:52
Speaker 3: a thriller, because there are no supernatural elements. And it's
3:56
Speaker 3: about two characters in one location, and the kind of
4:00
Speaker 3: psychological resistance between them, and that constant threat.
4:05
Speaker 2: That's under every word. And it's because.
4:07
Speaker 3: Of that book that I thought, wow, exciting stories are
4:10
Speaker 3: really the best to read, and I think also to write.
4:13
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of Harry.
4:15
Speaker 3: Potter books, like the second Harry Potter, actually read except
4:18
Speaker 3: for the fantasy element, as a whodunit, a kind of mystery,
4:21
Speaker 3: because it's about the secret chamber, who is it? Actually,
4:24
Speaker 3: if you unravel it a bit, and what the writer
4:26
Speaker 3: is also writing now, are thrillers. So if you scrape
4:28
Speaker 3: away the fantasy element, you actually come to.
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Speaker 2: The whodunit, the detective, the mystery. Yes, tension. And tension,
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Speaker 2: read and write, I prefer. So Misery by Stephen King
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Speaker 2: has been a revelation.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I think that for people in our generation, those
4:46
Speaker 1: are books that everyone has read. We have a lot
4:49
Speaker 1: of people, in any case. And that's why you chose
4:52
Speaker 1: Resolute for Thriller.
4:54
Speaker 3: In my later life, to put it that way. Because
4:57
Speaker 3: as a child, I did write a bit. But not
5:00
Speaker 3: with the view of, I'm going to.
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Speaker 2: Write a book here.
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Speaker 3: Because I just took inspiration from everywhere. So that was
5:05
Speaker 3: often fantasy, because I read Harry Potter. But that was
5:08
Speaker 3: without plot. So I just wrote, but it didn't go anywhere.
5:11
Speaker 3: And I often stopped, because it didn't go anywhere. And
5:14
Speaker 3: then I didn't write for a while, or a little bit,
5:18
Speaker 3: because then you go on studying, you move out, you
5:21
Speaker 3: live together or alone, and I don't know, a lot
5:23
Speaker 3: of life happens. And that comes to the background. But then,
5:28
Speaker 3: around 2020, 2021, it was the corona pandemic. It also
5:33
Speaker 3: has advantages, because I was in the tourist sector, in
5:36
Speaker 3: a chain of escape rooms, which was very nice. But
5:39
Speaker 3: that was the first sector that closed and the last
5:41
Speaker 3: that reopened during the pandemic.
5:43
Speaker 2: So I was at home doing a lot of technical work.
5:45
Speaker 3: And that was actually the ideal place for me to
5:48
Speaker 3: find my writing microbe from then. But then I thought,
5:52
Speaker 3: I'm not going to write in the wild anymore. I
5:56
Speaker 3: really want to have a story now and know where
5:57
Speaker 3: I'm going. Because otherwise I start again and give it
5:59
Speaker 3: up because I don't see the forest through the trees anymore.
6:02
Speaker 3: And then I thought, but actually I want to take
6:03
Speaker 3: it one step further. Because I really want to do
6:05
Speaker 3: something with that writing. But I knew from reading and
6:09
Speaker 3: hearing how difficult it is to enter a publishing house
6:12
Speaker 3: as a total stranger. So I thought, isn't there an
6:14
Speaker 3: intermediate step where you become a little bit known as
6:18
Speaker 3: a total stranger at the in-crowd? To say publishers, people
6:22
Speaker 3: who keep certain.
6:22
Speaker 2: Things in mind. And then I came to competitions.
6:24
Speaker 3: Competitions are often kept in mind by publishers, by editors,
6:28
Speaker 3: because they are usually accessible platforms where writing talent or
6:33
Speaker 3: people with a passion for writing are discovered. And coincidentally,
6:36
Speaker 3: there was the Silver Strop, based on the Golden Strop,
6:39
Speaker 3: which is the best exciting book, but the Silver Strop
6:42
Speaker 3: for the best exciting short story. And I still had
6:45
Speaker 3: enough time, and I was still at home, so I thought,
6:48
Speaker 3: I'm going to focus on that. And miraculously, I ended
6:51
Speaker 3: up in the top three, I became third. And from
6:54
Speaker 3: the top five, they made audiobooks. And those audiobooks were
6:59
Speaker 3: listened to by HarperCollins then, and That's how I got involved.
7:04
Speaker 3: They contacted me and I wrote my first two digital thrillers.
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Speaker 1: So that was a kind of digital publishing house?
7:12
Speaker 2: HarperCollins didn't.
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Speaker 3: They also published Karen Slaughter and others. But they had
7:18
Speaker 3: a fund that they were going to start up.
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Speaker 2: HarperFirst, that's what it was called.
7:23
Speaker 3: And they were looking for new writers, new names. And
7:26
Speaker 3: they found me on Instagram and contacted me. Now, because
7:28
Speaker 3: I was in that bundle and they had made audiobooks
7:30
Speaker 3: out of it, it was in Dutch, so they didn't
7:34
Speaker 3: know I was a Flemish. So when they sent me,
7:36
Speaker 3: I said, yes, I'm actually a Flemish, is.
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Speaker 2: That a problem? And that wasn't a problem, fortunately.
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Speaker 3: But the only asterisk was that the thrillers.
7:46
Speaker 2: I would publish only appeared digitally.
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Speaker 3: So Angstteland and Moederskind, my first books, only appeared digitally.
7:52
Speaker 3: But I saw it as the ideal way to get started.
7:57
Speaker 3: I wanted to get to where I am now, which
7:59
Speaker 3: is to be in bookstores and hold a physical book.
8:01
Speaker 3: But I thought, yes, it's a big issue here, within
8:05
Speaker 3: a small fund, but ideal, because this is what I wanted.
8:08
Speaker 3: So I took that chance with both hands and then
8:11
Speaker 3: in cooperation with Harper First, Angst in Land appeared. And
8:15
Speaker 3: there were positive responses. And then I wrote my second
8:18
Speaker 3: digital thriller. And then my third, last year, Het Vluchthuis,
8:21
Speaker 3: but that also appeared in Paperback. But that was still
8:24
Speaker 3: within the same fund. And then I knew I wanted
8:29
Speaker 3: to write a trilogy around Max West. So the next
8:35
Speaker 3: book I'm publishing now, or it's still within the same fund,
8:38
Speaker 3: but that also applies to the next two.
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Speaker 2: Or I'm now taking the step of trying to reach
8:44
Speaker 2: that next level.
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Speaker 3: And at Harper First, there wasn't really room to flow
8:49
Speaker 3: to the regular fund. And then I took the lead
8:52
Speaker 3: and just sent it to other publishers. And that's how
8:55
Speaker 3: I ended up at Ambo Anthos, also a Dutch publisher.
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Speaker 3: Because I already had a bit of an audience, including
9:01
Speaker 3: a lot of Dutch readers. So I didn't want to
9:04
Speaker 3: lose them. Flemish publishers are also great, but they're often
9:09
Speaker 3: not in the Netherlands. That doesn't happen often, certainly not
9:12
Speaker 3: as an unknown name. So I thought, if possible, I'd
9:15
Speaker 3: like to do it via a Dutch publisher that also
9:18
Speaker 3: distributes in Belgium. And that has now worked with Ambo Anthos,
9:20
Speaker 3: because they are under the VBK, Veenbosch en Keuning, publisher Paraplu,
9:25
Speaker 3: which of course makes them also in Belgium in the
9:27
Speaker 3: book trade, but also partly.
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Speaker 2: In the Netherlands. So that's very nice, because that makes
9:31
Speaker 2: the range of readers a lot bigger. And you immediately responded?
9:36
Speaker 2: I went to several publications.
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Speaker 3: I went to several and there were a few interests,
9:40
Speaker 3: but with Harold, my editor now, I immediately had a
9:43
Speaker 3: good click. He really reacted very quickly the day after
9:46
Speaker 3: or two days after. With a very extensive email, also
9:50
Speaker 3: with constructive criticism. He immediately said very to the point
9:53
Speaker 3: what he liked and what he didn't like. And also
9:55
Speaker 3: what he saw in it. And I thought, that's what
9:57
Speaker 3: I'm looking for. I'm convinced that a writer is a writer,
10:03
Speaker 3: but to make a book a book, you need a
10:07
Speaker 3: good editor. Someone with the same wavelength. Not that you
10:10
Speaker 3: have completely different visions, but if you're on the same
10:15
Speaker 3: wavelength and you can do that building up criticism, then
10:19
Speaker 3: you can really pull what you've already written to the
10:21
Speaker 3: next level. And that's worked out here and I'm very
10:24
Speaker 3: happy about that. Because without Harold, the last victim wouldn't
10:29
Speaker 3: be what it is now. And I just feel as
10:32
Speaker 3: an author that I can continue to grow with the
10:34
Speaker 3: collaboration with him. And that's always the goal. that you
10:38
Speaker 3: try to overcome yourself.
10:40
Speaker 2: You're your own competitor somewhere. You always want the next
10:43
Speaker 2: one to be better. Yes, actually.
10:45
Speaker 3: If someone asks what your best book is, I hope
10:47
Speaker 3: I can always answer the book I'm working on now.
10:51
Speaker 1: And the editor, what kind of feedback does he give?
10:55
Speaker 1: Is it stylistic, or is it really about content?
10:58
Speaker 3: He only read the first pages, of course, because I
11:02
Speaker 3: send a whole manuscript in and it doesn't take two days.
11:04
Speaker 2: That's why he's a bit busy. But....
11:08
Speaker 3: He had read the first chapter and he was directly
11:12
Speaker 3: involved with the story. But he said, for example, this
11:14
Speaker 3: is a bit exaggerated or I would do this differently.
11:16
Speaker 3: Or you write very, what was it, bombastic at some point.
11:20
Speaker 3: But I thought, oh yes, that can be. A first
11:23
Speaker 3: version is always a first version. But I thought, yes,
11:26
Speaker 3: I'm involved in that. With everything he said, I immediately thought,
11:29
Speaker 3: oh yes, I see where he's coming from.
11:31
Speaker 2: I see what you mean.
11:33
Speaker 3: And yes, in the end I went to talk to
11:35
Speaker 3: him personally. And from one thing to the other, he
11:39
Speaker 3: read the full manuscript. And then he was completely in it.
11:42
Speaker 3: Because if you read the book, from a certain part
11:45
Speaker 3: it ends up in a flow rate. And then you
11:48
Speaker 3: have one twist after the other. So he thought the
11:51
Speaker 3: story was great, but a few things had to be changed.
11:54
Speaker 3: Like the podcast that's in here. That was in collaboration
11:58
Speaker 3: with him. That wasn't the first time. And I told him,
12:01
Speaker 3: I want to find a way to talk directly about
12:05
Speaker 3: murders that have already happened.
12:07
Speaker 2: Because.
12:08
Speaker 3: The problem is often said, but the thing with the
12:10
Speaker 3: last victim is, it starts where many books or films end,
12:15
Speaker 3: namely the last victim is saved. She is saved from
12:18
Speaker 3: the claws of the murderer. There is no race against
12:21
Speaker 3: the clock or something, because she is already gone.
12:24
Speaker 2: But how could I keep those murders urgent?
12:26
Speaker 3: Because they actually happened in the past, so that the
12:30
Speaker 3: reader doesn't think, okay, it's not exciting, because.
12:32
Speaker 2: Without being too explanatory. Exactly. In the end, we.
12:36
Speaker 3: Thought, a podcast would be nice, because it sounds more direct.
12:40
Speaker 2: It's also nice to read.
12:42
Speaker 3: It's also nice because my main character, Max West, can
12:45
Speaker 3: listen to what the link is with Max.
12:48
Speaker 2: So, yes, that's really a.
12:51
Speaker 3: Change that brings fruit. I hope that can stay that
12:54
Speaker 3: way for the next books.
12:56
Speaker 1: It's full of plot twists. One after the other.
12:59
Speaker 3: I thought.
12:59
Speaker 1: Especially in the last 50 episodes. So I think I
13:02
Speaker 1: know the answer to the question. But I've heard Tony
13:09
Speaker 1: Koppers say, and I know you all know him, that
13:15
Speaker 1: he prepares his plot very meticulously, he has all the
13:18
Speaker 1: scripts of the action before he actually starts writing. And
13:22
Speaker 1: then you have other writers who say, I can see
13:25
Speaker 1: where I'm coming from and we can see where it ends.
13:28
Speaker 1: How is that with you?
13:30
Speaker 2: I plot it too.
13:31
Speaker 3: I think that Tony Koppers is even more meticulous than
13:34
Speaker 3: I am, in the sense of, My beginning and end
13:37
Speaker 3: are pretty close, but everything in between is still a
13:40
Speaker 3: grey zone. I know where I want to go, but
13:42
Speaker 3: I still have room for movement. And on the way,
13:47
Speaker 3: there are sometimes plot twists that fall off or change,
13:50
Speaker 3: because characters develop a little differently than I originally thought.
13:53
Speaker 2: Which I also like.
13:54
Speaker 3: So that discovery is still there. But I always know
13:58
Speaker 3: my end. I know what the last punch is going
14:01
Speaker 3: to be, and sometimes the timing changes a bit, or
14:04
Speaker 3: things like that.
14:05
Speaker 2: I know where I want to go.
14:06
Speaker 3: If I were to start writing on my own, I'd
14:09
Speaker 3: probably panic halfway.
14:11
Speaker 2: And that would work for me.
14:12
Speaker 1: I don't think that's what the genre is for. Maybe
14:15
Speaker 1: it works for another genre. Something more philosophical.
14:19
Speaker 2: Literary fiction or something. But when it comes to... It
14:22
Speaker 2: has to be right, what you're saying. Yes, tension.
14:25
Speaker 3: A thriller is very plot-driven. Your characters have to be there,
14:29
Speaker 3: but it's the plot that drives the story. So if
14:30
Speaker 3: the plot is not clear yet, then it.
14:34
Speaker 2: Will become very vague or you will have a lot
14:37
Speaker 2: of work to do afterwards.
14:38
Speaker 3: Because it is of course not impossible to just start writing,
14:41
Speaker 3: but then you will have to rewrite and restructure a lot.
14:44
Speaker 2: Whereas if you.
14:45
Speaker 3: Have a structure before you really start putting the words
14:48
Speaker 3: on paper, then you can at least work in there.
14:50
Speaker 2: That still has to be.
14:52
Speaker 3: Added, but the structure, the skeleton, is there. So you
14:56
Speaker 3: don't have to look for that skeleton in the flesh
14:59
Speaker 3: that grows all over the place if you just start
15:01
Speaker 3: in the wild.
15:05
Speaker 1: In many police thrillers, she is not a police agent,
15:08
Speaker 1: she is a psychologist, I always ask myself, how do
15:12
Speaker 1: the writers know how the research is going?
15:15
Speaker 2: How does it all come together?
15:16
Speaker 1: In your case, you are a little less involved, but
15:20
Speaker 1: how much research do you do?
15:22
Speaker 2: How do you do that?
15:23
Speaker 3: I also do research on police work, but I don't
15:26
Speaker 3: always have a good contact. I wouldn't want to go
15:28
Speaker 3: to a police contact, so I don't have one.
15:30
Speaker 2: You don't want to talk to them?
15:32
Speaker 3: Yes, so if I really wanted to have a police thriller,
15:35
Speaker 3: it's necessary. In this case, it comes side by side,
15:38
Speaker 3: and then you have enough research from other books, non-fiction,
15:42
Speaker 3: fiction even. The police thriller is the typical Flemish thriller,
15:46
Speaker 3: in the sense that there are quite a lot of them,
15:48
Speaker 3: and a lot of good ones. So you can use that,
15:52
Speaker 3: as well as the non-fiction work. But that's also why
15:54
Speaker 3: I wanted to take a different path. That first, but
15:57
Speaker 3: also because I just found out in Flanders that there
16:00
Speaker 3: was already a lot of good police thriller work. So
16:04
Speaker 3: I thought, I want to try a different approach.
16:06
Speaker 2: And especially because it's about a serial killer.
16:08
Speaker 3: Almost all thrillers that are about serial killers leave from
16:13
Speaker 3: the researcher who is behind the killer. Just because of
16:16
Speaker 3: what I just said, that urgency is there too. There
16:19
Speaker 3: is one murder committed, which looks a lot like a
16:21
Speaker 3: previous murder. Shit, we're dealing with a serial killer. We
16:24
Speaker 3: have to be prepared for the next victim. So there
16:26
Speaker 3: is that urgency, so I understand that approach. But it
16:30
Speaker 3: was a challenge for me to do it in a
16:32
Speaker 3: different way. And because Max is a psychological trauma therapist,
16:36
Speaker 3: I of course asked a few psychologists. Now not a
16:39
Speaker 3: single psychologist... has done what she does in the book.
16:43
Speaker 3: Let's hope so. Let's hope so.
16:45
Speaker 2: It remains fiction. And Max also remains a human being.
16:46
Speaker 3: Because the choices she makes are ultimately also the choices
16:48
Speaker 3: she makes as a human being.
16:50
Speaker 2: But what happens in her office, that can. That's hypothetically
16:54
Speaker 2: all possible.
16:54
Speaker 3: I'm not saying there's a Max West that does what
16:57
Speaker 3: she does, but it can certainly. And I've also talked
17:00
Speaker 3: to people who, for example, have had EMDR. So how
17:04
Speaker 3: that goes in their work and so on. Because I
17:05
Speaker 3: also find that interesting. I think in every thriller, I
17:08
Speaker 3: actually find the The psychology of the characters is far
17:11
Speaker 3: from the most interesting. So, yes, the choice was made
17:15
Speaker 3: quickly to make my character a psychologist.
17:17
Speaker 1: Yes, because they are all very well built. Also the,
17:19
Speaker 1: I mean, the perpetrator, shall I say. That's what I'm
17:21
Speaker 1: trying to do, yes.
17:22
Speaker 2: Follow the way you think, shall I say. Yes, that's
17:25
Speaker 2: the challenge. And the challenge is also not to make
17:28
Speaker 2: it too broad.
17:28
Speaker 3: Because, yes, you try to put a character down without
17:31
Speaker 3: losing too much acceptance. And that's sometimes a challenge, because
17:41
Speaker 3: if you write a novel, it's purely about the characters.
17:44
Speaker 3: People expect it to go slower. But I also wanted
17:46
Speaker 3: this thriller to have enough speed. So it was a
17:49
Speaker 3: challenge to have that, but also characters that feel real
17:52
Speaker 3: and not just cardboard. You chose to take a woman
17:53
Speaker 3: as your main character, Max West.
18:05
Speaker 1: Is that a conscious choice? And how do you deal
18:07
Speaker 1: with that as a man? Do you find it more
18:08
Speaker 1: difficult to crawl into the head of a woman?
18:10
Speaker 3: Not really, because I think, as a writer, they always say,
18:16
Speaker 3: write what you know. And to a certain extent, that's true.
18:20
Speaker 3: But you write about a lot of different kinds of people.
18:23
Speaker 2: I also write about serial killers. And for the time being,
18:24
Speaker 2: I'm also not a serial killer. So you also live
18:26
Speaker 2: in people, man, woman, child, it doesn't matter, who are
18:28
Speaker 2: far from you.
18:34
Speaker 3: And then it's a matter of talking to people. I mean,
18:38
Speaker 3: in my life, I know a lot of women. I
18:40
Speaker 3: have a mother, I have a sister. I mean, they
18:41
Speaker 3: can all say, oh, that's not right or something.
18:44
Speaker 2: Plus, I'm also just human. In the end, everyone is human.
18:47
Speaker 3: And yes, of course, our hormones and our environment play
18:50
Speaker 3: a role. But yes, I think a good writer is empathetic.
18:56
Speaker 3: And with the right research, you have to be able
19:00
Speaker 3: to write about one of them.
19:02
Speaker 2: Even if the story demands that. So... But that's how
19:05
Speaker 2: it grew, because, as I said, I started at HarperCollins.
19:09
Speaker 3: And when they signed me, they were looking for digital thrillers,
19:13
Speaker 3: but digital female thrillers. So that was a specific question.
19:17
Speaker 3: That was aimed at many readers, so people who read
19:19
Speaker 3: on the e-reader and who.
19:21
Speaker 2: Were looking in between.
19:22
Speaker 3: So they actually wanted an extra digital offer to fill
19:25
Speaker 3: their regular offer. And so they wanted a specific female thriller,
19:29
Speaker 3: and what does that mean? A psychological thriller with a
19:31
Speaker 3: woman as the main character. So I had already written
19:33
Speaker 3: a few books, and I think that's also why Max
19:38
Speaker 3: West automatically came as a woman. I'll probably write about
19:42
Speaker 3: a man someday, but I think that played in both ways.
19:44
Speaker 3: I've always had a woman as my main character, so
19:45
Speaker 3: I was in that.
19:50
Speaker 2: flow. But I'm very happy with Max as a character.
19:54
Speaker 2: At a certain point.
19:56
Speaker 3: I thought about her name, but I already saw her
19:58
Speaker 3: before me.
19:59
Speaker 2: I knew where she was in Leuven. The fact that
20:01
Speaker 2: she always wears hoodies.
20:03
Speaker 3: I saw her before me and that's always nice when
20:05
Speaker 3: I see my characters come to life.
20:07
Speaker 2: In my head.
20:09
Speaker 1: And in the end, it doesn't matter that much for
20:11
Speaker 1: the story she ended up in.
20:14
Speaker 2: The nuances will probably differ. Nuances, yes. But in the end, not.
20:17
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk only about.
20:19
Speaker 3: Women or only about men.
20:22
Speaker 2: It has just grown that way.
20:23
Speaker 3: Max is who she is now, so for the time
20:25
Speaker 3: being I will continue with her.
20:35
Speaker 1: Do you base your characters on people you know? Where
20:38
Speaker 1: do you take those pieces from? Not completely, because there
20:42
Speaker 1: are murderers and such, but do you draw characters? Or
20:44
Speaker 1: are there people from your environment who thought, yes, you
20:48
Speaker 1: draw that, that's mine?
20:49
Speaker 3: We may have certain characters, but often unconsciously. Because I think,
20:55
Speaker 3: as a writer, that you also put things of yourself
20:57
Speaker 3: in the characters. That comes automatically. But.
21:02
Speaker 2: Yes. A mix.
21:04
Speaker 3: I'm not going to go too specific, because I would
21:08
Speaker 3: find that a bit difficult or uncomfortable. Because often, every
21:12
Speaker 3: character is a bit morally grey. So if someone would
21:15
Speaker 3: read that, and it's clearly based on that person, they
21:18
Speaker 3: might be shocked and.
21:19
Speaker 2: Say, I don't do that at all. What does he think?
21:22
Speaker 3: But sometimes a name or something, and then it's a
21:25
Speaker 3: bit high.
21:26
Speaker 2: Sometimes people ask that too.
21:27
Speaker 3: Now, for example, with the next book I'm working on,
21:30
Speaker 3: I organized a competition with this book. If you....
21:34
Speaker 2: It was for my birthday, when you sent it in.
21:37
Speaker 2: Was it for my birthday? Yes, I think so.
21:38
Speaker 3: That you could get a role in my next book,
21:42
Speaker 3: but that you were married.
21:43
Speaker 2: So actually it was a small role.
21:44
Speaker 3: It's just someone who was married in a gruesome way.
21:47
Speaker 3: But it will surprise you how many people really want
21:50
Speaker 3: to be married on paper.
21:52
Speaker 2: On paper.
21:52
Speaker 1: If it has to be, then it can be spectacular.
21:56
Speaker 2: A lot of people are like, yes, yes, I want to.
21:58
Speaker 2: So look, people like that in some way. I'm a
22:02
Speaker 2: very legitimate murderer in a way.
22:04
Speaker 3: And people ask for it themselves. But something like that
22:08
Speaker 3: is nice. But then it's not based on that reader.
22:11
Speaker 3: It's just a name. And they know that. And sometimes
22:15
Speaker 3: attracting characters from people you know, or from yourself, or
22:19
Speaker 3: just the opposite of yourself. Inspiration comes from everywhere, but
22:24
Speaker 3: it eventually becomes a sort of hotspot. And that's also
22:26
Speaker 3: the safest, I think.
22:29
Speaker 2: Every writer puts things in there for themselves. Of course.
22:32
Speaker 2: Also social themes?
22:33
Speaker 1: Or did you put something in there that you thought
22:35
Speaker 1: had to be told? Did you put things in there? Yes,
22:38
Speaker 1: as you said, I often put things in there. The
22:39
Speaker 1: first idea was to do something about.
22:42
Speaker 2: A serial killer. That's not a specific theme.
22:45
Speaker 3: But in the end, the story is about a twisted
22:47
Speaker 3: relationship between parents and children.
23:02
Speaker 2: Trauma, of course. Trauma is the red thread.
23:04
Speaker 3: Max is a trauma therapist, and as it says somewhere
23:07
Speaker 3: in the book, traumas go much further than the person
23:10
Speaker 3: who would prevent them. So it's not just the traumatized
23:12
Speaker 3: person who is affected, but also the environment, everyone around,
23:19
Speaker 3: his or her life afterwards.
23:21
Speaker 2: That's not going to be the same anymore. And I
23:22
Speaker 2: found that interesting. And also how trauma can be in
23:26
Speaker 2: the big and small things.
23:27
Speaker 3: The big things, like in... You're kidnapped by a serial killer.
23:29
Speaker 2: It's a big trauma.
23:30
Speaker 3: But you also have small traumas, like parents who treat
23:33
Speaker 3: children in a certain way. That can be a certain
23:38
Speaker 3: character in the book. But the relationship between Max and
23:41
Speaker 3: her parents also has a certain tension. Max has something
23:45
Speaker 3: to do with her brother. And her parents and she
23:47
Speaker 3: deal with it in a very different way.
23:49
Speaker 2: So also silence, silence, can be a.
23:51
Speaker 3: Kind of trauma that someone draws. It's because Max recognizes
23:58
Speaker 3: herself in Amélie, the last victim, because she thinks she's
24:03
Speaker 3: a target, that she often stopped for herself, just because
24:06
Speaker 3: her parents were silent. And that makes Max obsessive. And
24:10
Speaker 3: even though she's aware that she's not doing a good job,
24:12
Speaker 3: she goes on with it. And that's because of a trauma. So,
24:18
Speaker 3: a traumatized trauma therapist.
24:20
Speaker 2: Yes. So that's the big theme.
24:23
Speaker 3: And then a kind of nurture versus nature, those things too.
24:27
Speaker 3: Is someone born bad or is he made like that?
24:31
Speaker 3: There might be something in the brain that makes someone
24:34
Speaker 3: be able to take the step faster to do things
24:36
Speaker 3: that are unimaginable for other people.
24:38
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, is everyone really capable of
24:41
Speaker 2: murder when it comes to Paaltje?
24:42
Speaker 3: When he's really driven that far? I always find these
24:45
Speaker 3: things interesting.
24:46
Speaker 2: What do you think? I hope I never have to know.
24:47
Speaker 3: But I think that in extreme situations, like self-defense, everyone
24:49
Speaker 3: is able to do more than they think.
24:51
Speaker 2: I think so.
24:52
Speaker 3: If you keep the fear of death alive, there are
24:54
Speaker 3: very strong emotions where most people, in this country or
24:56
Speaker 3: in this state, not directly come into contact with it,
25:15
Speaker 3: but if it had to be like that, then I
25:17
Speaker 3: think you can do more and cross more boundaries than
25:21
Speaker 3: you think.
25:22
Speaker 2: Yes, to the positive side, maybe. To the positive side, yes.
25:25
Speaker 3: But it's mostly fear and anger that can drive a
25:28
Speaker 3: person sometimes. Especially when it comes to protecting children. I'm
25:34
Speaker 3: not a father myself, but if I ever had to
25:35
Speaker 3: become one, and someone is harming children. And especially when
25:45
Speaker 3: you see that person... I don't know. I think it's
25:49
Speaker 3: easier to take that step than you would have thought.
25:54
Speaker 2: Then it becomes difficult.
25:55
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed.
25:57
Speaker 1: Do you have your own fears in there? Are those
26:01
Speaker 1: fears that you have in there? Or are they quite universal?
26:04
Speaker 3: I just wanted to say, I wouldn't like to be
26:06
Speaker 3: hung on meat hooks.
26:07
Speaker 2: No, it's horrible. That's actually a fear, too. Yes, actually.
26:12
Speaker 3: The fear of being in a hopeless situation.
26:19
Speaker 2: I think I had to be exiled and tortured.
26:22
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the worst things, just because
26:25
Speaker 3: you don't have a view. If you get murdered, that's
26:28
Speaker 3: also bad, but it doesn't last that long. But if
26:30
Speaker 3: you get arrested for years, even if it's just days,
26:33
Speaker 3: days seem very.
26:34
Speaker 2: Long, and then systematically....
26:38
Speaker 3: Pain, both physically and mentally. As you said, that's a
26:43
Speaker 3: universal fear. I don't think anyone is afraid of that.
26:48
Speaker 3: But let's face it, my biggest fear is the human being,
26:51
Speaker 3: what the human being is capable of. Like I said,
26:53
Speaker 3: you're more capable when you're driven to the extreme, but
26:56
Speaker 3: that applies to everyone. So if that's directed towards you,
26:59
Speaker 3: towards you, then it.
27:01
Speaker 2: Can go very far.
27:01
Speaker 3: The human being is the most dangerous, the worst, and
27:04
Speaker 3: also the best, yes. but also the worst that exists.
27:09
Speaker 3: So my biggest fear is the human being.
27:13
Speaker 2: Yes, quite rightly, I think.
27:15
Speaker 3: Yes, because if I end up with a lion in
27:18
Speaker 3: a cage, I will also be torn apart. But that's
27:20
Speaker 3: not because that lion wants to take revenge on me.
27:23
Speaker 2: That's pure instinct.
27:24
Speaker 3: If I'm in a room with a psychopath, he might
27:27
Speaker 3: do much stranger and sicker things than that lion. So,
27:32
Speaker 3: that's it.
27:35
Speaker 1: There are also live battles in it, and indeed, hanging
27:38
Speaker 1: on to those meat hooks, is that something, how do
27:41
Speaker 1: you then sit in your living room and think, oh,
27:43
Speaker 1: if I fall, oh, would that be possible, would that
27:44
Speaker 1: not be possible?
27:45
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, sometimes indeed, and then it's like, oh yes,
27:47
Speaker 3: feeling like that, and also looking for, sometimes, like, what
27:50
Speaker 3: happens next, or can a body go through? I'm on
27:54
Speaker 3: so many watchlists in the meantime, via Google.
27:57
Speaker 2: Probably, yes.
27:58
Speaker 3: But, yes, and then you try to do that, I
28:01
Speaker 3: often hear from readers that I write a lot of movies,
28:05
Speaker 3: and I like to hear that, because I see it
28:07
Speaker 3: in my head when I write. So yes, I also
28:11
Speaker 3: watch a lot of movies in all genres, but also
28:14
Speaker 3: a lot in the horror and thriller genre.
28:16
Speaker 2: So of course I.
28:18
Speaker 3: Have some kind of inspiration from that. But there are
28:24
Speaker 3: some scenes where I stand upright and think, or often
28:27
Speaker 3: dialogues that I literally say, because I think it sounds
28:30
Speaker 3: natural or it doesn't sound natural.
28:31
Speaker 2: Then I'm a bit in conversation with myself.
28:33
Speaker 3: So if there was a plane in my house, then
28:36
Speaker 3: that plane.
28:37
Speaker 2: Would probably, if it could, do that. But yes, that happens. Yes,
28:42
Speaker 2: because I think that's quite difficult.
28:44
Speaker 1: Because often, or you've already read about fighting, and you think, oh,
28:48
Speaker 1: I don't understand it right away, but.
28:50
Speaker 2: With you, indeed, you see it clearly.
28:52
Speaker 3: I also try left and right, which arm is free,
28:54
Speaker 3: which arm is not free, where did that thing hold on,
28:57
Speaker 3: which leg was in front of that leg, because yes, indeed, often,
29:00
Speaker 3: and it's not necessary that the reader really, if someone
29:03
Speaker 3: reads over it faster and makes a different idea of it,
29:06
Speaker 3: that's not a disaster either. It doesn't matter that much
29:08
Speaker 3: what the scene is for. But for me, it's a
29:10
Speaker 3: tool to really So that, like in a movie, you
29:15
Speaker 3: can have these continuing mistakes. Like, oh, there was a
29:19
Speaker 3: pocket here, and now it's there. I don't have that
29:22
Speaker 3: in my writing. It didn't hold the knife to the left,
29:24
Speaker 3: but now it's to the right.
29:26
Speaker 2: So those things are important, I think. Okay. Are you
29:30
Speaker 2: a fan of the Soap family? From the Soap family?
29:35
Speaker 3: I've never really looked at it.
29:37
Speaker 2: Do you know why I ask you that?
29:40
Speaker 1: No.
29:40
Speaker 2: I asked my father-in-law afterwards. You have Amélie van den
29:43
Speaker 2: Bossche as your character.
29:45
Speaker 1: And you have Guido van den Bossche, that's exactly the same.
29:49
Speaker 2: Oh, is that the first time you say that? Yes, yes.
29:52
Speaker 2: It caught me off guard because I know by chance.
29:54
Speaker 2: By chance. Yes, that is indeed by chance. I thought,
29:56
Speaker 2: that is too by chance, but apparently it is possible.
29:59
Speaker 2: It is really by chance. I haven't looked up those
30:02
Speaker 2: names completely.
30:03
Speaker 3: The book is also in the Netherlands, so there are
30:06
Speaker 3: often nicknames that can also be found in the Netherlands.
30:10
Speaker 3: There are certain nicknames that are very Dutch, like Jansma
30:14
Speaker 3: or Postma. Not that it's impossible, but then your character
30:17
Speaker 3: is Dutch. But there are also a lot of Flemish,
30:21
Speaker 3: pure Flemish names, like Verwaken. Not that it's impossible, but
30:23
Speaker 3: that sounds a bit more exotic for Dutch people. Not
30:29
Speaker 3: that it's bad, because it takes place in Flanders, but
30:31
Speaker 3: especially for this first book, we wanted to appeal to
30:34
Speaker 3: the audience as broadly as possible, so we took fairly
30:36
Speaker 3: neutral names.
30:38
Speaker 2: Yes, they probably have... It's Flemish, it's Dutch, but it's
30:41
Speaker 2: also there. So, sorry to the family character.
30:42
Speaker 3: As long as there's no story about a serial killer,
30:45
Speaker 3: then it's... I think they've had seventeen.
30:47
Speaker 2: Serial killers, but not as good as... Or not as
30:49
Speaker 2: good as Meat Hookers. I don't think so. That's a
30:51
Speaker 2: bit too much for us, I don't know. Yes, probably.
30:53
Speaker 2: We'll have to watch children. Probably, yes. No, at my home,
30:55
Speaker 2: we were always home viewers. Ah, okay. I know, because I...
31:08
Speaker 2: For me it was family, especially with my grandmother. I understand.
31:13
Speaker 2: So that's what I thought. You could have done it,
31:16
Speaker 2: but it's a coincidence.
31:18
Speaker 1: You said you have quite a few readers, all of
31:24
Speaker 1: whom followed you from your first three books.
31:27
Speaker 2: How did that come about? How did you tackle that?
31:30
Speaker 2: Did you have to do a lot of work yourself? HarperCollins, HarperFirst,
31:35
Speaker 2: put me on the spot.
31:36
Speaker 3: I had readers back then, but not to say I
31:38
Speaker 3: had a great audience. My first books didn't sell that
31:42
Speaker 3: many copies. They still do, so it's nice that people
31:44
Speaker 3: go back. If they like your book, people will look back.
31:46
Speaker 3: It's nice to see that earlier work is still being read.
31:49
Speaker 3: But nobody had ever heard of me. It was the
31:52
Speaker 3: bookstagrammers who.
32:00
Speaker 3: By Harper First and contacted me for a blog tour.
32:03
Speaker 3: So that's often done when a book comes out, that
32:06
Speaker 3: there's a little bit of buzz around it, as in,
32:08
Speaker 3: when people come across it and they go to Hebban
32:11
Speaker 3: or Goodreads or anywhere, they look at what kind of
32:13
Speaker 3: recents it has, and that has had zero readers. There
32:16
Speaker 3: may be people who think, ah no, I'm going to
32:19
Speaker 3: read another book, because I don't know if this is
32:21
Speaker 3: effectively good, because the writer has never written anything else.
32:25
Speaker 3: So who says that I don't spend my time on this,
32:27
Speaker 3: or that I'm going to be disappointed when I give
32:29
Speaker 3: my money to this? So that's why it's good. And
32:32
Speaker 3: the fun thing was, the blog tour was very positive.
32:35
Speaker 3: And the readers who gave a review, they kept following me.
32:40
Speaker 2: Almost all of them, as far as I know.
32:41
Speaker 3: And they thought it was really good. Not just good
32:45
Speaker 3: because they thought, oh yeah, starting writer, we're not going
32:48
Speaker 3: to make him equal to the ground.
32:50
Speaker 2: Maybe there are reviewers who do that.
32:52
Speaker 3: But I think that if you know that it's someone's debut,
32:55
Speaker 3: and you're one of the first reviewers, that you try
32:58
Speaker 3: to see the good in it too. that you're not
33:01
Speaker 3: going to give one star to everyone.
33:04
Speaker 2: If it's really bad, that's the way it is. But
33:06
Speaker 2: then it would also.
33:07
Speaker 3: Be crazy if the publisher didn't say, hmm, maybe it's
33:10
Speaker 3: not good enough.
33:12
Speaker 1: Normally, when you get into a publisher, it has to
33:15
Speaker 1: be of a certain level.
33:16
Speaker 2: You can always have people who don't like it.
33:19
Speaker 3: But in general, there should be a bit of a
33:21
Speaker 3: positive sound. Because otherwise, it wouldn't have gone that far.
33:25
Speaker 3: And that's why I like to be in a publisher,
33:28
Speaker 3: that you have that backup. Because automatically, when you get
33:33
Speaker 3: a bad review, you start doubting yourself.
33:35
Speaker 2: In the past, especially with the first book, it was
33:37
Speaker 2: very hard. Did you also have a lot of bad reviews?
33:41
Speaker 2: Not a lot, really.
33:43
Speaker 3: The positives are much more, so I'm very grateful for that.
33:47
Speaker 3: But they're always there. And it's the art of not
33:50
Speaker 3: taking it too personally. Because it's not personally intended. It's
33:54
Speaker 3: purely about how a reader has experienced a book.
33:57
Speaker 2: You can't do well for everyone.
33:59
Speaker 3: What one thinks is fast, the other thinks it's slow.
34:03
Speaker 3: What one thinks is good, the other thinks it's completely unbelievable.
34:08
Speaker 2: Yes, taste is taste. Indeed.
34:10
Speaker 3: So that doesn't exist, a book that's good for everyone.
34:13
Speaker 2: But in general, it's very positive.
34:16
Speaker 3: And as I said, the first reviewers also thought it
34:20
Speaker 3: was really good. That's why they still follow me. And
34:23
Speaker 3: book by book, my audience has grown. And it's also
34:27
Speaker 3: very nice to... to hear that people are looking forward
34:29
Speaker 3: to the next one. And that it's, as I said, sincere.
34:32
Speaker 3: Not just like, oh yes, I thought it was okay,
34:34
Speaker 3: but now I'm going to forget it again, because it's
34:37
Speaker 3: not a writer I want to follow.
34:38
Speaker 2: No, no, they're waiting for Max Westfield II.
34:42
Speaker 3: Yes, and that's the hope of me and the publisher,
34:44
Speaker 3: that the audience can grow even further, of course. And
34:47
Speaker 3: the nice thing about this book is that it's in
34:48
Speaker 3: the book trade, so that a lot more people are
34:51
Speaker 3: being approached than just online. With the digital thrillers I
34:54
Speaker 3: had my online audience, but All the readers who are
34:57
Speaker 3: not on Hebban, who are not on Instagram, had never
35:00
Speaker 3: heard of it.
35:00
Speaker 1: It also has a great advantage that you can grab
35:03
Speaker 1: the book in the store and look at it.
35:05
Speaker 3: Yes, for signing sessions or something like this. Promoting, that's
35:09
Speaker 3: always my thing. You can't start signing people in IWI.
35:14
Speaker 2: No, no, no. You can do that, but... Yes, then
35:17
Speaker 2: it will be full soon. Yes.
35:21
Speaker 1: You write very quickly, I think. You've published four books
35:26
Speaker 1: in four or five years.
35:28
Speaker 2: Yes, a book a year.
35:30
Speaker 1: How do you do that? I can imagine that you
35:32
Speaker 1: also have a normal job. How do you find that
35:37
Speaker 1: mental space, shall I.
35:39
Speaker 2: Say, to do that? Yes, you say fast, but that's
35:41
Speaker 2: what Freda McFadden says. Yes, okay, but they do that full-time,
35:46
Speaker 2: all the time. Yes, but that was also a heart surgeon,
35:48
Speaker 2: I thought. Is that true?
35:48
Speaker 3: Yes, but maybe in the meantime, because she has such
35:50
Speaker 3: success as a writer, she no longer does that.
35:53
Speaker 1: But she writes incredibly fast. The more you earn with it,
35:55
Speaker 1: the more time you can spend on it.
35:57
Speaker 3: Yes, if I had to write full-time, I would probably
36:00
Speaker 3: do two a year.
36:01
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Writing is also a hobby for me, so
36:06
Speaker 2: I really like to do it.
36:08
Speaker 3: Not every day, sometimes there are days when I think
36:10
Speaker 3: I'm going to try it, or that I think, no,
36:12
Speaker 3: it won't work today, or I'm going to change everything tomorrow,
36:16
Speaker 3: so it makes no sense. But I really like to
36:19
Speaker 3: do it, and usually when I'm working on a book,
36:21
Speaker 3: I'm already.
36:23
Speaker 2: Putting a certain structure in my head for the next book.
36:25
Speaker 3: And that's very rudimentary, that's literally just an idea, and
36:28
Speaker 3: possibly a starting point, and then I think, oh, I
36:30
Speaker 3: can do something with that. But that's also reassuring for me,
36:34
Speaker 3: So I never had a book ready for me.
36:37
Speaker 2: And then I thought, what now? The next idea.
36:42
Speaker 3: The next one is always ready. That's so typical. If
36:45
Speaker 3: you actively look for inspiration, it won't come. But if
36:49
Speaker 3: you're open to everything, it will. And usually, until now,
36:53
Speaker 3: hold on, it will come while I'm still working on
36:56
Speaker 3: the previous one.
36:57
Speaker 2: So I can always go on.
36:59
Speaker 3: And now for the trilogy around Max West, Every story
37:02
Speaker 3: is based on itself. The director's story is over, but
37:06
Speaker 3: Max continues as a character. So her red thread will continue.
37:09
Speaker 2: She has a very interesting own storyline. Yes, and that
37:13
Speaker 2: will be further deepened.
37:14
Speaker 3: She as a character, her surroundings, etc. So that will
37:18
Speaker 3: of course come into play a lot. But the main
37:20
Speaker 3: story is always different. So okay, I knew her red
37:23
Speaker 3: thread from book one. But that's why I don't have
37:25
Speaker 3: three books yet. I just have the story of Max.
37:28
Speaker 1: You do know how her red thread will end in
37:31
Speaker 1: book three.
37:31
Speaker 2: Yes, I do.
37:32
Speaker 3: But for book three, I have a few loose ideas,
37:35
Speaker 3: but I have to throw them in a pot.
37:37
Speaker 2: I have nice images. Sometimes you see sides where you think, oh,
37:40
Speaker 2: that would be cool. But then you think, yes, you
37:43
Speaker 2: need context. But that grows gradually.
37:46
Speaker 3: So.
37:47
Speaker 1: And if it becomes a huge success, will you stop
37:50
Speaker 1: at book 3 or will you go even further?
37:52
Speaker 2: I don't know.
37:52
Speaker 3: Indeed, traumas and her profession as a trauma therapist has
37:57
Speaker 3: a lot of possibilities. But I do think she as
38:00
Speaker 3: a character, so where I want to go with her,
38:04
Speaker 3: her background story, will get.
38:05
Speaker 2: A certain conclusion in book 3.
38:08
Speaker 3: So then you could say, for example, you can read
38:11
Speaker 3: each part of the series separately, but I would read
38:13
Speaker 3: the first three in order.
38:14
Speaker 2: Something like that. Personally, as a thriller reader myself.
38:19
Speaker 3: Series are fun, but you actually lose a number of
38:26
Speaker 3: readers with each sequel. Or you're a mega success, of course,
38:31
Speaker 3: because if you're.
38:32
Speaker 2: Karen Sauter, it doesn't matter.
38:34
Speaker 3: But if you're not, I don't know, right, then it's
38:37
Speaker 3: very important that every book can be read separately. Suppose
38:42
Speaker 3: a reader sees book 20 and thinks, oh, that story
38:45
Speaker 3: sounds interesting.
38:45
Speaker 2: And then there's book 20 in a row. Ah, oops.
38:48
Speaker 3: And then he asks, do I have to read this
38:50
Speaker 3: in order? And another reader says, yes, I recommend this. Oh,
38:53
Speaker 3: I have 19 books here.
38:54
Speaker 2: Yes, look a little further. Oh, this one comes out too.
38:56
Speaker 2: And then it's out. So, yes, there is... That scares
38:59
Speaker 2: me personally sometimes as well. Yes, that's true. That's true.
39:02
Speaker 2: And I think a trilogy is very tangible. Even if
39:05
Speaker 2: people only jump on the cart at book 3.
39:07
Speaker 3: Suppose they think, oh, that story speaks to me very much.
39:10
Speaker 3: But readers say, you should read them in full order,
39:13
Speaker 3: then two books are not impossible. Plus, it will also
39:17
Speaker 3: be possible to read book three first, but then you
39:20
Speaker 3: will already know how Max's background story is put together.
39:23
Speaker 2: That's all.
39:24
Speaker 3: But you won't know who the director was or what
39:28
Speaker 3: happened with Amélie.
39:31
Speaker 2: There's a reference to the book with no spoilers.
39:34
Speaker 3: Like, this happened, but there are no spoilers for the
39:37
Speaker 3: previous story. So you can read the three parts separately.
39:40
Speaker 3: But to get to know Max, it's a trilogy. And
39:43
Speaker 3: then I'll see with the publisher... We can still go
39:47
Speaker 3: all the way.
39:48
Speaker 1: It might be more fun to have other characters.
39:51
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.
39:52
Speaker 3: Or maybe another character and Max will ride in as
39:56
Speaker 3: a side character. That would also be fun.
40:03
Speaker 1: How did you get the idea for this book specifically?
40:07
Speaker 1: Is it something you read in the newspaper or how
40:09
Speaker 1: does it come in?
40:10
Speaker 3: I also read a lot, and I also like to
40:13
Speaker 3: read books about serial killers. So I already knew that
40:15
Speaker 3: I wanted to write a book about a serial killer,
40:19
Speaker 3: but I didn't want to do it from the police.
40:22
Speaker 2: That was the idea I had.
40:23
Speaker 3: But that's an idea where you're nothing yet, because that's
40:27
Speaker 3: not a story.
40:28
Speaker 2: And then I had another idea. The problem is that
40:31
Speaker 2: I can't tell you now, because that's a big spoiler.
40:34
Speaker 2: That's one of the twists. You have to read it. Yes, indeed.
40:37
Speaker 3: But then I had that idea, and then I have
40:40
Speaker 3: I connected those two things together and from that point
40:43
Speaker 3: on it started to pop. And then I notice that
40:46
Speaker 3: there is something in it. If I can connect two
40:49
Speaker 3: ideas through a few threads, then I know there is
40:51
Speaker 3: a story in it. If it comes automatically, especially if
40:54
Speaker 3: I know my main character, then I think, oh yes,
40:55
Speaker 3: and then that, and then that. But then there was
40:57
Speaker 3: actually that going on, and then this. And that's very
41:00
Speaker 3: nice to be at that point in the creation process.
41:03
Speaker 3: Because then you feel like, okay, this has legs to
41:07
Speaker 3: stand on.
41:07
Speaker 2: And that's nice.
41:10
Speaker 1: When I'm writing and I work towards a plot twist,
41:13
Speaker 1: one of my fears is always how people will see
41:16
Speaker 1: it coming. How do you do that? Do you let
41:19
Speaker 1: people read it and say, I already knew it, and
41:22
Speaker 1: do you change it? How do you deal with it?
41:24
Speaker 3: It's mostly the people from the publishing house who read it.
41:28
Speaker 3: I had a friend who always read it, but now
41:31
Speaker 3: she says... No, now you have a whole team behind you.
41:33
Speaker 3: Now I really want to read it when it's a book,
41:35
Speaker 3: because I like that. But yes, that's like they say,
41:42
Speaker 3: a double on its side, as the Dutch would say.
41:44
Speaker 3: Because there may always be people who see something coming
41:47
Speaker 3: and other people who totally don't see it coming. But
41:49
Speaker 3: the nice thing, I think, is to keep a plot
41:51
Speaker 3: twist logical. and then maybe do something different. So there's
41:56
Speaker 3: a twist, but behind it there's another twist.
41:58
Speaker 2: I think you have three or four.
42:01
Speaker 3: I also like that the reader could guess, that it's
42:06
Speaker 3: not impossible. I call it freedom of fathom. I sometimes
42:10
Speaker 3: like to read it, but sometimes not. Because there are
42:14
Speaker 3: certain books where her plot twist is such a deus
42:17
Speaker 3: ex machina that I think it was literally impossible to guess,
42:22
Speaker 3: the first part of the book becomes completely illogical because
42:25
Speaker 3: of this twist.
42:26
Speaker 2: And I find that rather frustrating as a reader.
42:28
Speaker 3: There may be readers who don't see any gaps in that,
42:31
Speaker 3: that's okay, but I as a writer would have a
42:35
Speaker 3: problem with that myself. And I think, if I have
42:37
Speaker 3: a problem as a writer, I'm not going to write it.
42:39
Speaker 3: So I always want it to be logically explained. And
42:42
Speaker 3: I sometimes plot backwards, so I know where I want
42:44
Speaker 3: to go. I know, as I said, that one idea,
42:47
Speaker 3: what a twist is. Then I thought, I have to
42:50
Speaker 3: go back from that point. So what if I go back, back,
42:52
Speaker 3: And then I think, oh yes, and if I stop
42:53
Speaker 3: a perspective from a completely different point of view, then
42:57
Speaker 3: the reader really doesn't know what to do with it
42:59
Speaker 3: until I'm at a certain point.
43:02
Speaker 2: So that's nice.
43:03
Speaker 3: So you actually have your starting point and then it's
43:04
Speaker 3: a matter of going there and the way you can
43:07
Speaker 3: go there. There are so many sideways that ultimately also
43:12
Speaker 3: cause a twist in that way. But for me logic
43:15
Speaker 3: is important. So a reader should be able to guess it.
43:19
Speaker 3: But it shouldn't be on top. It should be a surprise.
43:22
Speaker 3: Even if people can guess it, it should still be surprising.
43:25
Speaker 2: That's a challenge.
43:27
Speaker 1: The book takes place in Leuven, specifically. You're from Leuven yourself, right? Yes,
43:33
Speaker 1: I work in Leuven and I lived there for a year.
43:35
Speaker 2: But I always went to school in Aerschot. In the neighborhood.
43:38
Speaker 2: It also starts in Aerschot. So people from Aerschot. It's
43:47
Speaker 2: in a lot.
43:48
Speaker 3: The very first scene is in Aerschot's industrial park. So
43:53
Speaker 3: page one already says Aerschot. So the people from the
43:58
Speaker 3: standard book store Aerschot thought that.
44:01
Speaker 2: Was very cool. But I grew up there.
44:03
Speaker 3: But now I live back in Limburg, where I lived
44:05
Speaker 3: until I was eight years old. Because my parents moved
44:10
Speaker 3: to Aerschot. But until then they lived in Limburg, in Zelem.
44:14
Speaker 3: My grandmother lived there until a year ago as well,
44:17
Speaker 3: but she lives in a shelter now.
44:18
Speaker 2: So at the moment I live in her house. And
44:20
Speaker 2: that's really nice. That's really nice.
44:21
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's really nice for inspiration, because I've
44:24
Speaker 3: been there so often as a child, and now as
44:25
Speaker 3: an adult, so that's really nice.
44:27
Speaker 2: And what kind of job do you do, if I
44:28
Speaker 2: may ask? Something boring as well.
44:31
Speaker 3: So I have, well, boring, sorry if my colleagues are watching.
44:34
Speaker 3: It's really nice, very nice colleagues as well, but I
44:36
Speaker 3: mean boring in the sense of, yes, if a thriller
44:39
Speaker 3: writer says that, that's not the answer that readers want
44:41
Speaker 3: to hear. I'm just doing administration for the department of
44:44
Speaker 3: engineering at UZ Leuven. So I do back office, so
44:46
Speaker 3: management assistant, as it's called. A very pleasant job, clear
44:51
Speaker 3: task packages, very pleasant colleagues, so I always like to work.
44:55
Speaker 3: And what was important to me was that when I
44:57
Speaker 3: locked the door behind me, it was done. So that
44:59
Speaker 3: I wasn't mentally busy with my work in the evening,
45:03
Speaker 3: so that I still had room to to express my passion.
45:06
Speaker 2: I read or saw something before that. Did you do
45:09
Speaker 2: children's animation? Yes, I did, but as a side job.
45:11
Speaker 3: With my former girlfriend, we did children's parties. We also
45:14
Speaker 3: did a few things with theater, with self-made figures.
45:18
Speaker 2: I also wrote those scenarios.
45:20
Speaker 3: It was something completely different. It was aimed at children's
45:24
Speaker 3: venues and children's parties. But that was also more of
45:34
Speaker 3: a hobby, a very tiring hobby.
45:36
Speaker 2: You had to act.
45:37
Speaker 1: Yes, that was like that.
45:39
Speaker 2: Yes, so affected, acting as a child.
45:42
Speaker 3: But I'm also still a presenter for Xnapda.
45:44
Speaker 2: That's an educational learning platform. So actually for.
45:47
Speaker 3: Movies in lower education. And there I play, yes, I'm Alexander,
45:52
Speaker 3: I'm myself, but you automatically play a bit too, right?
45:55
Speaker 2: Boys and girls, here we go. That's not how I
45:58
Speaker 2: present my thrillers. No, no. You could try it. You
46:01
Speaker 2: know it's a success.
46:03
Speaker 3: But that's also what the children's animation stands for.
46:09
Speaker 2: Stories have always appealed to me.
46:11
Speaker 1: How did you get there? Did you study something in education?
46:14
Speaker 2: I studied all languages and spent a year.
46:17
Speaker 3: Because I had an existential crisis on my 25th and thought,
46:21
Speaker 3: I have to go to work, but I don't know
46:22
Speaker 3: what to do. I want to write books, but I
46:24
Speaker 3: also have to earn money.
46:26
Speaker 2: So then I thought, oh yes, teacher. And I spent
46:29
Speaker 2: a lot of time in education.
46:30
Speaker 3: I think it's a beautiful profession, but you have to
46:33
Speaker 3: be very motivated and passionate about it.
46:36
Speaker 2: And I felt that I wasn't intrinsic.
46:38
Speaker 3: And I didn't want to be an exhausted teacher who
46:40
Speaker 3: just waited for his fixed appointment and was done with it. Plus,
46:43
Speaker 3: I really didn't have the mental space to still I
46:47
Speaker 3: thought that was a shame. I was creative in class,
46:50
Speaker 3: but not on my own. Maybe that came after a
46:53
Speaker 3: few years, but you needed that passion and perseverance in education.
46:57
Speaker 3: And I lacked that, so I knew it wasn't right.
47:02
Speaker 3: And then I stood in escape rooms for a while,
47:04
Speaker 3: so it was totally different. But I thought it was
47:06
Speaker 3: worth doing.
47:07
Speaker 2: But those hours were... That's also a bit of acting, maybe. Yes,
47:09
Speaker 2: you take people with you in the story. So yes, indeed,
47:12
Speaker 2: a little less.
47:13
Speaker 3: You're still just yourself, but you take people with you
47:15
Speaker 3: in the story. And those rooms are also dressed up,
47:18
Speaker 3: so that's also actually separate stories in and of themselves.
47:21
Speaker 2: But those hours were, yes, impossible. Saturday, Sunday, holidays, very early,
47:26
Speaker 2: very late. This is a 9-to-5.
47:30
Speaker 3: I can plan things like this far ahead without having
47:33
Speaker 3: to say if I can be free because I have
47:35
Speaker 3: to go to Booktopia in the weekend.
47:37
Speaker 2: So that's nice. It's much easier to arrange now.
47:52
Speaker 1: Organize escape rooms in the theme of the books.
47:55
Speaker 2: What a success. That would be very cool. But then
47:58
Speaker 2: they have to read the book in advance, because then
48:01
Speaker 2: there is no spoiler. No, no, no. But the concept alone.
48:04
Speaker 2: A viewer and a... Yes, indeed. Lensiger, definitely to... Yes,
48:11
Speaker 2: who knows, if the publisher listens. Yes, ideas, ideas.
48:16
Speaker 1: I will send my bill number for the design of
48:19
Speaker 1: the concept.
48:20
Speaker 2: Indeed. One more question.
48:24
Speaker 1: Is it realistic for people who write themselves to earn
48:28
Speaker 1: your money with that? Is that something you think, oh,
48:30
Speaker 1: that could ever happen? Or is that really something.
48:34
Speaker 2: That is very far away?
48:36
Speaker 3: To really say that you shouldn't do anything else... That
48:39
Speaker 3: you have a salary from writing. That's almost not true.
48:45
Speaker 3: Even the well-known writers don't sell their books only, but
48:50
Speaker 3: also because they do a lot.
48:51
Speaker 2: Of other things, like journalism, or work for TV, or
48:53
Speaker 2: other fields.
48:54
Speaker 3: Because you're dealing with the Dutch-speaking market, which is often
48:59
Speaker 3: Flanders and the Netherlands, and maybe a writer with an
49:02
Speaker 3: English or French translation But unless you really break through
49:05
Speaker 3: on the English market, your offset market is still quite small.
49:11
Speaker 3: And it's not that every Flemish or Dutch person will
49:14
Speaker 3: buy your book, that would be nice, but that doesn't happen.
49:17
Speaker 3: So to really live from it, from it... But that
49:20
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be the motivation. You have to know
49:23
Speaker 3: where you stand and you have to be able to negotiate.
49:26
Speaker 2: I'm not a great negotiator, but.
49:28
Speaker 3: You have to appreciate your own value and recognise your
49:33
Speaker 3: own ambition. For example, you were in a different fund,
49:37
Speaker 3: but you really want to be in the book trade.
49:39
Speaker 3: I knew I was going to take the next step.
49:41
Speaker 3: But the motivation was never to earn more. I just
49:44
Speaker 3: wanted to reach more readers. With that, for now, marketing.
49:49
Speaker 3: I made tote bags that people like. But I paid
49:52
Speaker 3: for it myself. I think it's important. It's an investment
49:56
Speaker 3: in more readers. I don't want to write three books
49:59
Speaker 3: and that's it. I want to stay a writer.
50:01
Speaker 2: All my life. So all the things I do now.
50:04
Speaker 3: will also pay off in a different way. And the longer,
50:08
Speaker 3: the better, also because you'll have a sort of backlog
50:11
Speaker 3: of books that you've already written and keep selling, you'll
50:15
Speaker 3: earn a lot of money. And I think if you
50:17
Speaker 3: do another job, it can be a great addition to
50:20
Speaker 3: your salary. Or ideally, you can work part-time or less,
50:26
Speaker 3: in the sense that you can spread it.
50:27
Speaker 2: Especially if you want to do readings or something like that.
50:29
Speaker 2: So those options....
50:33
Speaker 3: Are certainly great, but to really say I'm going to
50:35
Speaker 3: live off it completely, then you almost really need a
50:39
Speaker 3: different market than just the Dutch market.
50:42
Speaker 2: Yes.
50:43
Speaker 3: Okay.
50:45
Speaker 1: We have decided to give away a book as well, right?
50:47
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. Like the others. I have one from
50:50
Speaker 2: the second print. The second print? Oh la la. Yes, yes, yes.
50:54
Speaker 3: The difference, if you look, we can't get to it now,
50:57
Speaker 3: otherwise it will be wrong, but here in the first print,
51:02
Speaker 3: He takes the sticker here, because it doesn't say anything here,
51:04
Speaker 3: but here it says a quote by Thomas Oldenheuvelt. And
51:06
Speaker 3: on the back of it, Michael Berg, who owns the
51:10
Speaker 3: Golden Strop.
51:10
Speaker 2: So that's really cool. Ah, okay, so they put that
51:13
Speaker 2: in there.
51:14
Speaker 3: Yes, and they also have... No, no, no, that will still... Yes,
51:18
Speaker 3: because it's still in the book store.
51:20
Speaker 2: So they haven't designed it yet, of course. But as
51:22
Speaker 2: you can see, the photo... Look, it's a bit smaller now,
51:26
Speaker 2: because they also have that text.
51:28
Speaker 3: So they changed it a bit and added the quote
51:32
Speaker 3: here as well.
51:34
Speaker 2: So that's nice. It's very nice of course.
51:39
Speaker 3: That's one of those little things that you like as
51:40
Speaker 3: a writer to read for the first time.
51:43
Speaker 2: That it says here, first print May 26, second print July.
51:47
Speaker 2: That's close to each other. Yes, that's very nice.
51:50
Speaker 3: And the fact that there is the second trick, that's
51:53
Speaker 3: really great.
51:54
Speaker 2: So, you're signed. Yes, I'm going to sign something. We'll
51:59
Speaker 2: do that here.
52:00
Speaker 1: You can win that by being noticed, by following us,
52:03
Speaker 1: by sharing, by making sure that you are noticed, that
52:07
Speaker 1: we see you and then we will choose someone. to
52:11
Speaker 1: which we will send the book. And that might be
52:13
Speaker 1: a nice way to get to know you as well. Yes, certainly.
52:17
Speaker 1: Via this way.
52:19
Speaker 2: Good, then I think we're done. I think so too.
52:22
Speaker 2: It was very interesting. Yes, it was very nice.
52:24
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming here.
52:26
Speaker 2: Thank you. I found it very interesting, very nice to
52:29
Speaker 2: talk about the last victim. Yes, very nice.
52:32
Speaker 1: Then we will end with a piece to read. If
52:35
Speaker 1: that's okay with you.
52:36
Speaker 3: Certainly. I'm going to read a bit from the perspective
52:46
Speaker 3: of the last victim, Amélie. So, at this point, Amélie
52:49
Speaker 3: is saved, as.
52:51
Speaker 2: We already know.
52:52
Speaker 3: She's escaped from the serial killer, but in the story,
52:56
Speaker 3: she goes back to the past, to the time she
52:58
Speaker 3: was stuck with the serial killer. This is a bit
53:01
Speaker 3: in which she has just woken up with an ankle injury,
53:09
Speaker 3: around her ankles, and where she slowly realizes that she
53:12
Speaker 3: has fallen into the claws of the serial killer.
53:20
Speaker 2: Where was the door?
53:21
Speaker 3: She had come here in one way or another, and
53:24
Speaker 3: not voluntarily, so someone had carried her and laid her down.
53:28
Speaker 2: Maybe she had to try to get up. Her head
53:31
Speaker 2: was shaking.
53:33
Speaker 3: She maneuvered on her knees as if she were going
53:35
Speaker 3: to pray, and came painstakingly overwhelmed. De ruimte werd een
53:39
Speaker 3: ogenblik lang wazig en opnieuw werd ze overvallen door de
53:42
Speaker 3: stank die er hing.
53:43
Speaker 2: Weeg en zwaar. Maar wat? Niet aan denken.
53:47
Speaker 3: Een paar seconden bleef ze staan om zowel haar fysieke
53:52
Speaker 3: als mentale evenwicht terug te vinden. Toen begon ze met
53:55
Speaker 3: kleine pasjes naar links te schuifelen. Langzaam maar zeker weken
54:00
Speaker 3: de schaduwen. Maar er was niks.
54:04
Speaker 2: Een volgende betonnen muur, even ondoordringbaar als de andere. To
54:09
Speaker 2: the right, please. It looked like a kind of storage room.
54:13
Speaker 2: She looked up again, at the golf plates.
54:16
Speaker 3: Through the windows she could not see anything except a
54:18
Speaker 3: frame with gray light. As she stepped over the space,
54:22
Speaker 3: she thought of the moment when the unknown was going to.
54:26
Speaker 2: Sit next to her in her car. How long ago
54:28
Speaker 2: was that? A day?
54:30
Speaker 3: Longer? She had not even yelled. She had not registered
54:35
Speaker 3: anything worth mentioning. No face, no voice, even no breathing.
54:39
Speaker 3: Just a dent and a needle that suddenly stuck in
54:41
Speaker 3: her flesh, right.
54:43
Speaker 2: Through her pants. After that, nothing more.
54:47
Speaker 3: On her right leg was a dark circle of blood
54:50
Speaker 3: on the blue fabric, as big as a coin.
54:52
Speaker 2: She was pricked there. It wasn't a dream. Of course
54:56
Speaker 2: it wasn't a dream. You only care about it.
55:02
Speaker 3: A few steps further she finally saw what the door
55:04
Speaker 3: had to be. It was a trolley fence where she
55:07
Speaker 3: could barely turn a hand through it. There was a
55:10
Speaker 3: wooden gate behind it. It was clear that it could
55:13
Speaker 3: only be opened along the outside.
55:16
Speaker 2: What kind of place is this? She wriggled and crouched
55:19
Speaker 2: down with her arms around her.
55:21
Speaker 3: Her tears were quiet, stifled. She must have been looking
55:26
Speaker 3: for her. The police, her parents and her brother.
55:31
Speaker 2: Oh, poor Guus.
55:32
Speaker 3: If only he didn't have a relapse. Then she saw
55:36
Speaker 3: the letter. He lay innocent against the trolley fence. Alsof
55:41
Speaker 3: wie haar hier ook had opgesloten, had verwacht dat ze
55:44
Speaker 3: naar een uitweg zou zoeken en hem dan zou aantreffen.
55:48
Speaker 2: Ze knipperde haar tranen weg en pakte hem op. Hij
55:51
Speaker 2: was getipt.
55:53
Speaker 3: Beste kijker, je bent bang, is het niet? Je weet
55:58
Speaker 3: niet waar je bent. Je weet niet waarom je hier bent.
56:02
Speaker 3: Op dit moment probeer je wanhopig de laatste uren bij
56:04
Speaker 3: elkaar te puzzelen, want je wilt een logische verklaring vinden
56:07
Speaker 3: voor wat er is gebeurd.
56:09
Speaker 2: Nee, je kent mij niet. Dat hoeft ook niet, want
56:12
Speaker 2: ik ken jou.
56:14
Speaker 3: En ik wil je belonen met het grootste spektakel dat
56:16
Speaker 3: je ooit hebt gezien.
56:19
Speaker 2: Nee, dacht ze. Haar adem gierde door haar luchtpijp. Dat
56:23
Speaker 2: kon niet. Niet hij. Ze was zo geschokt dat ze
56:27
Speaker 2: zelfs niet meer kon schreeuwen.
56:29
Speaker 3: Haar ogen branden en door haar tranen heen kon ze
56:32
Speaker 3: nog net de laatste zin lezen.
56:34
Speaker 2: Je staat onder mijn regie.